A servant is not greater than his master, and so in principle we should always expect to get the same treatment that Jesus did. But because — despite being His followers — we are still tangled up in our own sins and failings, there is always for us a measure of deserving some of it.
This creates a false impression in us. We tend to think that “if only” we were more like Jesus, this wouldn’t be happening to us. No, actually, if we were perfect, the hostility we would encounter would be perfect also. The only thing perfection would do is bring all the latent issues to a head more rapidly.
Jesus lived a life of sinless perfection. What does that get somebody around here? One time his family showed up with a straitjacket (Mark 3:21). Other times Jesus was accused of being a prince of demons (Matt. 10:25). It was said that He had contempt for the traditions of His people (Mark 7:5). He was said to be a carouser (Matt. 11:19). He would eat and drink with quislings and whores, and this reflected on His reputation (Luke 19:2; Luke 7:37).
Modern Christians in the corrupt West need to make a mental adjustment. Because we are still in a period of transition — from the older Christian order to the newer bedlamite order — two things have to be going on. In the first place, there has to be clear, open, and unapologetic persecution of Christians. Here is a recent example for you, but they are coming with some regularity now. Get used to them.
But the second thing that needs to happen is that our ruling elites who are orchestrating all this have to deny that any of it is happening. They do this for two basic reasons. The first is that they are rank hypocrites, and they still want to pretend that they care deeply for religious liberty. By religious liberty they mean your freedom to think whatever you want about God and man, just so long as it stays completely behind your eyes and mouth, and between your ears. If any of it leaks out, you are guilty of micro-aggression against, I don’t know, someone who suspected your faith might make them frightened. You must be hauled off to the camps so that they can feel safe.
The second reason is that they are trying to mess with your head. You’re the one who is crazy — you and your paper cut persecutions. Poor baby lost his hetero-normative center!
None of this is new.
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?” (John 7:19–20).
Jesus knew they wanted to kill Him, and He said so. They said in return that He was a demon-possessed. How dare He point out what was self-evidently true?
Gaslighting is a term taken from a film called Gaslight. The story is about a particular form of abuse, in which the abuser mistreats the victim, and then, using various forms of deception and manipulation, makes the victim think he is losing his mind.
It didn’t work on Jesus. Sometimes it works on us.
Excellent thoughts! I have often wondered how much the “apologizing for being a Christian” jargon seems strange to me. People setting up booths to apologize for all that Christians have done wrong in history. I don’t know, I understand need for humility, but I feel that true sincerity comes from acknowledging where we have done personally, not repenting to the world on behalf of the church for being so judgmental.
The “elites” operate out of a spirit of antichrist but we also have a Joseph Cotten in our lives, Jesus, the Christ. Until we stop looking for “the Antichrist” of apocalyptic fiction, we will live in our vulnerability to the “Gaslight” tactics of our evil rulers. Live in the truth, brothers and sisters, that the devil that would abuse, deceive and manipulate us is in chains and has been plundered by the stronger man, who has broken the lions teeth. Let’s stop cowering in the cultural corner and act in the knowledge that our Lord has all authority, where? in… Read more »
Here’s an idea. Let’s start making noise about the bathroom thing. Put some pressure on congress to protect privacy of little girls in the bathroom. Since Obama wants to go full bore in endangering them, that seems an ideal place to fight
You are crazy! How dare you let those little girls need for privacy damage the self esteem of full grown males!
What is your name and where do you live?????
Age-ist!
We must have our political safe place and apparently the only place that exists is in the ladies restroom? It is so absurd it really is downright comical.
I think there was novel called The Women’s Room by Marilyn French that was written in the 1970s and hailed as a feminist classic. I can’t remember if I read it all. But I am absolutely certain that most of the regular guys on site would rather pass a kidney stone than have to read it. And I might agree with them.
Cmon people. It’s perfect. Go for it, a great place to put energy. Like a christian dog run.
To be serious (for a change), I would hope that no bathroom legislation would be regarded as making public restrooms safe for unaccompanied children. I have never been able to forget about the little boy who was murdered in a California men’s room while his aunt waited for him outside, or the little girl who was kidnaped from a bathroom at her church.
Well, that’s the question on this one. It allows pretense for “males” to have access where they should not.
I understand that. But my concern is that the really wicked are not deterred by rules. There was another case in the news today about a little girl who was choked in a public bathroom. I would never want a parent to think his/her young child would be safe alone in a public restroom simply because there are laws against someone of the wrong gender using it. I am not opposed to the laws. But I want to yell out warnings when people talk as if the law will automatically protect unescorted children. Obviously, I don’t mean elementary school restrooms.… Read more »
Yes. The whole preoccupation with transgendered folks using a ladies room is such a red herring. The real danger to children exists elsewhere. Real access to children by predators occurs in situations of trust where the defenses are down. Preyed upon by men (usually men but not exclusively,) who have done a slick job of preparing the way for themselves by grooming the victims and their families.
The transgendered are statistically more at risk.
If I understand the argument correctly, it is not that the transgendered person is likely to use the ladies’ room for the purpose of harming girls and women. It is that depraved heterosexual men will pretend to be transgendered for the purpose of gaining access to women’s bathrooms and locker rooms. “I am feeling like a woman today,” says the man with wicked intentions, “so I am going to shower with the girls and no one can stop me.” No other reasoning makes sense to me. If a man is a rapist, he can skulk around in the hallway outside… Read more »
The danger is the deconstruction and inversion of morality and the power of the state backing said inversion.
With the Left, the issue is never the issue. The issue is always power.
“Your sense of good and evil will give way to the devil’s minions or you will die” is the issue.
Never grant them that power over you; you belong to God, not to man.
Hi Timothy and Demo D, I think I am seeing the issue as literal and specific, rather than as symbolic of a larger conflict. Viewed that way, it just doesn’t seem that hard to find solutions that will protect women’s privacy and also protect transgendered people from harm. I think that is why it seems lunatic to me to have to invoke the power of the courts, state legislatures, and the federal government to settle something that I think a few sensible people could work out in minutes. So, if I understand both of you, the real issue isn’t about… Read more »
I have a hard time seeing it as a safety issue as well – I have sons, and the oldest are really too old to go with me to the ladies’ room. I feel anxiety and I pray whenever I have to send them into a public men’s room without me. The current “transgender” issue is simply that of denying the existence of a mental disorder – and worse, positively encouraging it. It harms those who suffer from it, and attempts to reorder society on the foundation of an extraordinary lie.
I agree with you that it is a disorder, and the way we are treating it is barbaric. I have deep sympathy for TGs; as a recovering anorexic, I realize what it is like to have a deep and life-threatening misconception about one’s body. The suicide rate for TGs is appalling. Nobody treated my anorexia by encouraging me to lose more weight; no one agreed that liposuction or lap band surgery was the way to help me come to terms with having a normal body size. And yet what is the difference?
Good luck with that, CCL.
Let us know how it turns out.
Problem is, it ain’t about bathrooms.
Your congressmans’s telephone number is 202 224 3121
While I hate to see someone get fired for their beliefs about certain things which used to be quite common and unobjectionable, the precedent was set long ago. White people have been getting fired for having “wrong” opinions about blacks, Jews, Mexicans, and other non-whites for decades. Opinions that most white Americans held until quite recently. But that never seemed to bother Judeochristians very much. In fact, in many cases, it’s the evangelicals who were leading the charge against the heretic. It’s a little late to be raising Cain now. Once you start celebrating auto-da-fes, you can’t really complain when… Read more »
Ah, but Wilson misses the best part of Gaslighting! First you get to lose your mind, which can actually be quite fun if you do it with the Holy Spirit. Than you get to tie the bad guy to a chair and use a knife to remind him that you’re crazy now and automatically not guilty by reason of insanity.
Girls know all about Gaslighting, we’re far more vulnerable to it. Conversely however, we’ve also adapted and learned to enjoy it.
What happened in the link is terrible. But it opens the important question – whose actions and tactics have brought us to this point? Of course the answer isn’t fully knowable, and I’m not going to engage in an extended debate about something we can’t really know at all. But it bears thinking about rather than just assuming one direction. The hardline religious authorities of Jesus’s day opposed him because He challenged their ideas of who and what was important in becoming part of God’s Kingdom. No part of the fault on this can be placed on Jesus, because he… Read more »
Jonathan wrote: However, there had been people before him who had been false prophets, tried to deceive the people, turned religious movements into revolutionary movements, etc….and it’s possible that a bit of the blame can be placed on their heads. I don’t disagree with Jonathan’s general caution about loose canons in our own camp, but in the first century we are able to look at the way Jesus rebuked and assigned blameworthiness to that generation. It doesn’t appear that Jesus spent a lot of time excusing that generation for being confused by earlier false prophets, deceivers, and revolutionaries. Jesus held… Read more »
I don’t think the past sins of others, even our own church, should ever make us silent. What I’m concerned about is that past tactics of ours (and I’m thinking recent past, within our own lifetimes), which would have been wrong regardless of outcome, are even more demonstrably wrong due to their negative outcomes. And that we are in danger of not only ignoring the degree to which those past wrong-anyway tactics helped to lead to the current situation, but are also ignoring how that past influences how people will hear what we have to say now. And most of… Read more »
If we are really in danger, innuendo and allusion are not an appropriate protection against making the same mistakes. Jonathan should speak plainly, and identify those past tactics of ours.
In my reading, most of the hostility Jesus encountered was from his own religious establishment and those who followed it, and tended to directly follow his criticisms of that establishment. I’m not going to go through a full verse-by-verse analysis, but would love if someone did. If I remember correctly, the crowd tried to throw Jesus off the cliff when he implied that he might be going to those outside of the ones Israel currently thought were chosen, the Pharisees often made their plans to go after him after he had spoken parables against them (many again with the character… Read more »
“Power” and variants thereof occur 15 times in Jonathan’s comment.
I am mildly curious if they occur in the context of “political power” .
If they do, I will not be surprised if Jonathan’s “Christian” solution is a variant of “We are all Communists now”.
But, I am only mildly curious…hmmm…baseball….
Ok Rays lost…. This comment at Vox’s place adds what I consider a useful framework through which to view “Shame Christianity”. From Guilt & Shame Based Societies by Glen R. Francis Shame oriented societies are different. Hiebert continues by saying, Shame is a reaction to other people’s criticism, an acute personal chagrin at our failure to live up to our obligations and the expectations others have of us. In true shame oriented cultures, every person has a place and a duty in the society. One maintains self respect, not by choosing what is good rather than what is evil, but… Read more »
I highly recommend Roland Muller’s work on guilt-based, shame-based, and fear-based societies. It was extremely helpful to me, both in understanding the Biblical context (much of which resonates from a shame-based society) as well as understanding certain modern cultures.
I believe that all my uses of the “power” or anything like it in the worldly context were negative. Communism and its implementation is certainly a clear example of an exertion of very worldly power that I think we need to move away from. I am no fan of hunting after political power, and no fan of political communism. There are some superficial similarities between imaginary “ideal” Communism and the description of the Church in Acts 2 and 4, as well as in some commands of Jesus. But the similarities are only superficial and reveal a very different heart and… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, I am going to let God advance His Kingdom His way. I think it is a sin to presume to do God’s work for Him. My focus is not on ‘power’ but on Him. He does things His way. He clearly uses weakness to advance His Kingdom, but here is the thing; it is Him who makes us weak, not us. Our attempts do that are just that: our attempts to do that. The flesh will glom onto anything in order to justify itself–including our attempts to make ourselves weak. It takes real discipline to wait on Him.… Read more »
There’s no “either-or” of whether God is doing the work or we are doing the work. God has made clear that he has chosen to do His work through human hands, and all good that we do is done by God. While God certainly can work outside of human hands, it appears that the great deal of His work in this world is that which He has chosen to do through humans, in this era most particularly through His church, and on a practical level everyone who is trying to serve God is practicing that, whatever they want to say… Read more »
We’re not here to be fighting over their power with their tools. We called to reject their power,and in the process show that there is a far more transformative power altogether. What I too often see is a ‘sixth, seventh…n’th’ way. They all seem to have the remarkable trait of coinciding with the progressive memes of the day in a failed attempt to coopt the flesh instead of crucify it. At the end of the day, the fruit is rotten and the initial conditions are worse. Lather, rinse, repeat. When I see “power” used in an argument, I see Zinn… Read more »
I already quoted the early Fathers extensively on this. And Jesus. I’m fairly certain that none of them were influenced by Zinn. I certainly haven’t been, nor do I know any Christians with my views who have.
If you want to engage me on the Bible and the witness of Jesus Christ, I’m happy to engage. Otherwise, I’m not interested.
Jonathan, I don’t trust your motives or your judgement. I wish you well.
J’, to the initial point of the post, you and I and all the others are not perfect, but Jesus is. He could not have done better, but look what he had to work with, you, me and RFB.????
We can be doing things as right as we are able, which in some areas, may attract more even more struggle! The bad principalities don’t like the good ones, ever.
True! But I’d love to be attacked for doing the right thing, and because I’ve been doing the right thing.* Too often now we’re being attacked because we really have done the wrong thing…or because we might be doing the right thing at the moment, but it’s so badly colored by all the wrong things very much like it that we’ve done that it’s hard for people to believe our new sincerity. * Okay, I take that back, I don’t “love” it, but it definitely feels a heck of a lot better than when someone focuses in on an actual… Read more »
J’, it’s good to a point, to have a highly active conscience and take our own ethics seriously. Even so, our conscience is a vehicle of the Spirit, but not the Spirit its’ self. The spirit is the only just convictor of sin. As someone who is participating in the sufferings of Chirst right now, for the right reasons, “if it be your will, take this cup away from me, but not my will but yours be done” has meaning for me that it never had before. I don’t “love” the suffering anymore than Jesus did, but we endure it… Read more »
As I said above:
Evangelicals are hypocrites. They’re not concerned about liberty of conscience for everyone; the think that only people who agree with their views deserve protection for their beliefs. The government should respect the rights of evangelicals to dissent from the prevailing orthodoxies, but it’s free to trample the rights of anyone evangelicals don’t like.
I tend to agree with you, but is there any group, anywhere, who does otherwise? Wanting free speech for myself and restricted speech for you is simply another example of fallen human nature. Often, the very nobility of the cause leads even good people to be willing to censor speech they don’t agree with.
I tend to agree with you, but is there any group, anywhere, who does otherwise? Wanting free speech for myself and restricted speech for you is simply another example of fallen human nature.
I thought evangelicals were supposed to reflect the love of Christ, and not be like every other group in the world?
Like you and me, they are works in progress. I will have to make a lot more progress in reflecting the love of Christ before this pot can start calling the kettle black.
Aren’t loose canons a Romish problem? I didn’t think Protestant churches had that position in the hierarchy…
*blinks innocently*
Yeah, instead we have wild boars.
Anglicans do.
As for loose *cannons*, there are a LOT more of those in the Evangelical world (including the Reformed type) than among Continuing Anglicans.
No doubt.
They certainly do! Deacons, archdeacons, curates, deans rural and otherwise, metropolitans, prebendaries, priests, presbyters, primates, provosts, suffragans, rectors, vicars, precentors, parsons, incumbents, commissaries, bishops, archbishops, diocesan bishops, and coadjutor bishops. One day you may be called on to arrange the seating for a formal dinner. It will be important for you to know that the Archbishop of York ranks higher than the Law Lords but lower than the royal corgies.
I KNEW there was a reason I’ve never invited archbishops and archdeacons to a formal dinner!
Please come to me first if the occasion ever arises. Otherwise I will go to my grave having memorized the Order of Precedence for nothing.
And I think I misspelled corgis. Sackcloth and ashes for me.
You are talking about the corgi dogs right! ; – )
Those dogs should be seated and playing cards at any State dinner!
While I can’t really claim to be a student of her’s, Emily Post was brilliant! ; -)
They bite.
I love the word “Romish”. It calls to mind serried rows of ancient men in red hats plotting to take over the world.
Well…… if the “Romish” plan for world domination works out before your daughter’s plan,
do I still get Idaho? ; – )
At least I won’t be betting on the Amish plan!
You may still have Idaho but you will not get hamburgers on Fridays during Lent. As Prince Harry of Nazarre said so memorably when he was told he would have to give up Protestantism in order to become king of France, “Is Paris worth a mass?”
Navarre. :-)
You are right, and what has happened to my spelling in the last two days? I have spent a lifetime being inordinately proud of my spelling, British and American. I can even spell phloegm without thinking twice. Am I thus to be humbled and brought low? My daughter even used her hereditary spelling genes to rank third in the National Scripps Spelling Bee–now, it is true that this victory occurred in a movie and not real life. But still…
phloegm? I use British spelling and have never come across anything other than “phlegm”. I know the Americans think the British use too many vowels anyway; do you Canadians add extra vowels just to mess with them?
Thoegm
Thoegn
Whoegn
…
Born agoegn
I like it. It looks sort of Beowulfy.
Which makes you a member of the Beowulfpack. Just as I am a member of the Virginia Woolfpack.
It must be the colonials trying to outdo the mother country! It took me a little while to convert to American spelling, mostly with the -se ending in words like defence. But I think old Noah didn’t go far enough. What is wrong with “hemorage”, for goodness’ sake? As a bit of a usage pain-in-the-neck, I was disgruntled to see that the semanticists here are just about to give up on the strict use of “literally.” I was hungry enough to literally eat the road kill that my dog dragged home. And I expect that made you literally feel sick.… Read more »
“I was disgruntled to see that the semanticists here are just about to give up on the strict use of “literally”. ”
It would be against my pedantic nature to give up but I am reminded of this.
http://xkcd.com/1108/
That’s great!
The biggest proponent I know of nauseous/ nauseated distinction is an American. Though I for one side somewhat with Lewis on this, I think one should offer push back in one’s own generation and adapt to the provious generation. After all, any previous generation becomes just how words are used, and the destruction of meaning in any current generation is driven by the ignorant. Here is another take. I would say that the push back against the rules of grammar are somewhat justified in as much as Latin speaking English posers tried to enforce Latin grammar on English. I am… Read more »
I do agree with you on the second point. It is tiresome to have to recast sentences to avoid splitting an infinitive just because Dryden (in my opinion, the deadliest writer in the whole canon) had learned his Latin grammar. I largely agreed with the writer you linked to (excuse me, to whom you linked), but I won’t give up the lie/lay distinction. I have, however, abandoned shall/will even though I have fond memories of Fowler’s explanatory example about a man flailing about in the water: “No one shall help me,” he shouted, “I will drown.” So they let him.… Read more »
I do wish english still made use of thee/thou, as a second person singular pronoun makes a usefull distinction.
Thou art right.
Barnhardt argued for this.
According to here, thee and thou are for beloved ones.
You and you are for people who are not close to you.
Another way to look at it is the anecdote who did not see a red object. The non-artist pointed it out and to the non-artist it was red. To the artist is was crimson or some variant of red.
The same thing happens in cooking. The application of and thinking in close distinctions–things that are meaningless to a non-cook–are the difference between pedestrian food and wonderful food.
the provious generation.
provious vs previous
So is Gaslighting the same thing that the progressive interviewers do when they have a conservative evangelical in the hot seat? “Woah! Wait a minute here! You actually BELIEVE what the Bible teaches, Pastor MacArthur!!??” I used to chuckle at the terrible job they did at researching their guests until it occured to me that they probably did know, and were actually making a kind of passive-agressive power play.
And to show once more how we bear the burden of honesty, think about how stupid it would sound to act surprised that Richard Dawkins actually believes in evolution.
It would be dumb to assume that a top shelf biologist disbelieves in scientific theory. Apparently it is also dumb to hope a trained medical doctor and public health official wouldn’t think that evolution is a ‘religion created by Satan’ as did Dr. Walsh in Wilson’s non-example of christian persecution.
The Department of Health stated that Dr. Walsh failed to disclose outside employment as required by law. So Dr. Walsh was not fired over his sermons but because he didn’t comply with state law.
Yes, it would be dumb, because no one disbelieves that, except for all of the exceptions, which do not count obviously.
Jon, of course all the exceptions count… They get counted, then tossed on the discard pile marked ‘willful ignorance by otherwise intelligent people’.
Yes, this is true, you do have a very aggressive policing for dissent. No wonder science is broken.
Calling a ridiculous idea out as such and requesting standards of evidence for extraordinary claims is hardly silencing dissent. It would seem some of you think that ridicule of those that would dismiss scientific theory in favor of a demon creating ‘scientific religion’ qualifies.
You obviously do not undertake any kind of self-reflective research to determine how well the modern scientific “community” holds fast to antiquated ideas like scientific methodology, so it’s hard to know where to even begin with you. But I guess your selective skepticism that you use toward us and never toward yourself and your allies is exactly the kind of confirmation bias that only you would appreciate.
Not talking about methodolgy but scientific theory. Yes, I am biased toward scientific theory rather than superstition.
And the dividing line between those two things is merely who happens to be talking.
Or evidence.
Naturalistic evidence that proves naturalism. Something outside of nature cannot be measure by natural means so then it doesn’t exist! Pretty neat!
What makes you think anything exists out of nature?
The fact that “naturalism” cannot explain something as elementary as why we are here and have our being. It attempts to, by mechanics, say the machine has no purpose and no creator. Impotent.
What makes you so sure that nothing does?
You’re the one implying that something (god) exists ‘out of nature’ not me. I am not saying that nothing does. Who could say? I can’t disprove the celestial teapot. I am saying there is no reason to think there is a god and certainly no evidence for one.
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” I think this is true, but it is also beautifully said – I think things like beauty, love, self-sacrifice, for example, are transcendent things that pull us out towards something Other. Any experience of what Lewis called sehnsucht points to it.
Those wonderful things we all in common. They do not require a conjured deity to experience, especially not one who is on the other hand threatening children with eternal punishment for all of eternity.
I wasn’t suggesting we don’t share them in common. You asked what would make one think anything existed outside of nature. I don’t think those things can be explained in purely natural terms. All men experience the transcendent. Only those who admit transcendence is possible can attempt to explain them.
Katie, I admit the transcendent. But respectfully, that is no victory for you. Why should there be a reason to believe that the transcendent experience exists outside of the human brain. I am a dedicated practitioner of meditaton and have experienced many different transcendent states in practice without conjuring a god. I have over the course of my life also taken psychedelic drugs like lsd and mdma. A small brain chemistry tweak on those drugs can invoke a profound state of transcendence and realization of the interconnectedness of all things… For starters! Recent experiments have replicated out of body experience… Read more »
I wasn’t simply referring to a “transcendent experience,” but “the transcendent.” I believe there is some reality outside of ourselves to which our experiences of transcendence correspond. I don’t know why that doesn’t seem a very natural conclusion to you, unless you’re already predisposed to assume the conclusion is impossible. If our experience points to something transcendent, why would not the simplest conclusion be that the transcendent exists, is real? It seems more complex to me to conclude that the transcendent is an illusion created by our brain chemistry. Respectfully, Rand, you can admit the transcendent only by redefining transcendent… Read more »
You may believe that extraordinary claim of a ‘transcendent’ with a capital T, and it may feel quite real. I may believe in a teapot circling the earth but that doesn’t make it true. The commonality of the numinous experience and easy replicability of it by several means suggests to me something other than god. Madness used to look a lot like demonic possession, ulcers like stress, germs like more acts of god. And so on. We know better from science, asking questions and not accepting easy answers like shrugging and saying god. ‘I don’t know’ is why we fly,… Read more »
“I understand the desire of the christian to seek one area where the rug doesn’t keep getting rolled back..”
You made me laugh, Randman. Being a Christian really is all about rolling the rug back. Nothing makes the rug roll back faster!
“Madness used to look a lot like demonic possession…”
Ha! I was just thinking it actually looks a whole lot more like the response of some so called Christians in these here threads. No wonder you resist and reject Jesus Christ, I think would too. It’s often downright ugly isn’t it?
I know some wonderful christians… deeply committed to the love and service of others no matter what. My mother is one. She means it like no other. So, I know what that looks like. You seem to care about others above the usual biblical legalizing, jillybean is always fair and thoughtful. But Wilson and his band of christian men’s men (and men’s women) astound me. That is one reason why I think I enjoy it here so much in a perverse way. It;s not far off from Fred Phelps and his crew. It’s so very mean-spirited and not at all… Read more »
I’m glad you know some kinder Christians! Some don’t, for some this is all they’ve ever seen. It makes me feel just ill thinking about it.
I think you’ve misjudged Wilson, I think you’re holding him accountable for some of the lunkheads who comment here and judging him based on what you think you know about the Natalie situation.
I’m not claiming that belief creates reality (though I think you know that). I’m saying the very opposite, that there is a reality to which our experiences of the transcendent correspond. I don’t know about you, but my love for my husband and children aren’t easily replicated in a lab. Your examples are all scientific – medical, mechanical, technical discoveries – these are not transcendent. Things like love, beauty, grief cannot be quantified by science. Physiology may tell us what’s happening in our bodies as we experience these things, but it doesn’t tell us why. Your world is to mine… Read more »
I won’t take that last paragraph personally. You and I or any other human experience love and beauty no differently in any major way. I just don’t need a god to make it worth something. You are saying that you believe in a being that exists outside of natural laws. One that is the source of the feelings of transcendence, beauty, love etc. That without this being those feelings are unaccounted for. I am saying says who? You have no proof of that. What about Zeus? Allah? Xenu? Ra? What makes your claim so special? Perhaps your exact love for… Read more »
I’m actually not sure how my last paragraph could be taken personally. I’m sorry I’m not communicating well. I don’t think you’ve realized that I haven’t been arguing for the existence of God here. Your question was simply “what makes you think there is anything outside of nature.” I’m also not arguing that something outside of nature is the source of our *feelings* of transcendence. I’m saying that those feelings suggest for me something that corresponds to them. Lewis said (as I’m sure you’ve read) “A man’s physical hunger does not prove that man will get any bread; he may… Read more »
Katie, I have much enjoyed our exchange. I don’t think I have yet had this exact conversation here which is saying something. Usually I have the exact same merry go round with the same yard dogs. I appreciate this one. I assume it is coming to a close. ‘Your world is to mine as porn is to sex’ seemed a little assumptive and mildly condescending? But no worries here. To the rest: maybe that’s what you tell yourself to feel good about all the effort, rejection, oppositional energy and buttressing your christian worldview requires of you? I remember that life.… Read more »
Oh goodness, I hope you didn’t think I was trying to imply anything about your sex life?? Maybe you weren’t understanding the analogy. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re saying our human desires for the transcendent are just body chemistry, that there is nothing transcendent outside of our brains, these chemicals just make us think there is, i.e., it’s an illusion. Porn is illusory like this. If there were no such thing as real sex, maybe porn would be as good as it gets. I’m probably just insulting you more though, and this explanation is not helping. ha. Speaking… Read more »
No haha I didn’t think that. I got the porn metaphor. I just reject it as non-applicable here with regard to the depth of experience. I understand that your main point is a god is behind it all and why. Also, ‘I don’t know’ is my answer here… for now. My travel down the psychedelic road was to make a point that if we can trigger those experiences chemically (and we can) it says something about us, transcendence, and our consciousness neurologically. I hope you understand that I too am saying those experiences are real and NOT an illusion. I… Read more »
Thank you. I don’t think I did understand that you deny that transcendence is an illusion. By definition, the transcendent is something beyond the physical. Maybe transcendent is not the word you want to use?
katie wrote:
I find that dealing with materialistic atheists is an exercise in taking vocabulary away from them.
RandMan mocks us for our dependence on faith, yet, ironically, he is the one who believes that the “coming AI” will “transcend” the bonds of reactionary transistors and achieve moral awareness. You can’t make this stuff up, but materialists can. They are ready to believe in the “coming AI”.
I was cudgeling my memory for other LA murders and, although these weren’t famous, they were kind of a good illustration of irony. The movies Friday and Next Friday, starring someone unknown to me named Ice Cube, were shot at a seedy-looking apartment just down the block from me. There is a portion of the movies that deals with the drug-dealing activities of the denizens of South Central. But film makers don’t really like to film there, so they chose my neighborhood in the San Fernando Valley. In the last ten years there have been two actual drug-related murders in… Read more »
That’s in the zone jellybean. If you are over in the valley, wasn’t there a ‘Heat’ style bank shoot out in Studio City there at some point? Also an Armenian mob house cleaning on Riverside…? (my friends told me that. not sure if true)
The North Hollywood shoot-out was terrifying. I was volunteering in my daughter’s pre-K class when the school went into lockdown. Twenty panicky children having to pee in the wastepaper basket and stay down on the floor for several hours. Crying for their mothers and vomiting onto my lap. The noise was deafening, and we couldn’t get information about what was happening. This was the case where the police were hopelessly outgunned by the bank robbers. One robber killed himself, and the other bled to death in the street. His family later sued the city for not getting him to the… Read more »
This was probably the day on which I decided I was no longer a dyed in the wool liberal.
LOL
Ah, the joys of self-delusion!
Such joys are indeed hard to give up. But just as delusional can be the opposite category error. Where there is no love or goodness to be found outside our tiny beleaguered group. Where everyone who isn’t one of us is an enemy.
Ride or die!
You’ve lost me on this one. Is this a biker slogan? Sort of like God Rides a Harley?
I was using it in the sense of “He that is not with us is against us.”
Which is kind of its meaning, but there’s more to it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ride-or-die_chick
For an old guy, I’m “down” with quite a bit of “urban” lingo.
However, unlike St. Lee, I don’t speak a word of Polari.
(I do speak a fair amount of rhyming slang – enough to get by in Bristol City.)
But does your Trouble and Strife understand you? I have English parents, and one grandmother who was born within the sound of Bow Bells. She lived in Whitechapel during the heyday of Jack the Ripper. She is one of the good ancestors, unrelated to the wreckers who lured sailors to their doom for the sake of the demon rum. Or maybe brandy. What is your connection to Bristol–other than knowing that girls from Bristol are sharp as a pistol when they do the Bristol Stomp, who-oh-oh.
But I also have a couple more. I live in a gated condo complex with underground parking. One night my daughter woke me to tell me she had heard shots. I told her she was dreaming and to go back to bed. Then the sirens started and the police began banging on doors, so I realize that I wasn’t likely to go on fooling her. We were ordered not to go outside, so I went to the balcony and peeked over. An entire family, grandma, parents, kids, and uncle, were sitting in the common area handcuffed to deck chairs. It… Read more »
I think LA is one of the most counter-intuitively overlooked cities in the US. There is just no place like it. Such a fascinating place. And you are really in the thick of it. Maybe the blog mablog crowd needs to crowdfund a bullet proof vest for you. Kickstarter isn’t just for music you know…
I complain but I really do love it here. There is such a weird sense of community, and there is closeness with people I could never have imagined I would get to know. And people really do look out for one another. I have mentioned before a homeless and somewhat deranged Vietnam vet who has taken me under his wing, and because I don’t drive, he walks me to places after dark. When I was really anorexic and looked like a ghost that walks at night, total strangers tried to pick up my tab in restaurants and grocery stores. Los… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI1MqxhnmJQ
Thank you for the link. I am such an elderly fossil that I thought their last song had been Do Wa Diddy Diddy.
Actually, California wasn’t really a hit. I never heard it except on progressive rock stations. Remember those?
But this one was a huge hit back around 1975 or 1976. Bruce Springsteen wrote it, but their version is much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpq35wyDi7I
I thought of another one for you, although the victim survived. Griffith J. Griffith, a mining magnate, married a Catholic senora from one of the original land grant families in Los Angeles. He donated Griffith Park to LA as a Christmas present (and made it binding that they could never charge fees to the public). Unfortunately, he was a secret drunkard with a paranoid delusion that his wife Christina was giving all his money to the pope. In 1903 he and his wife were vacationing at the Arcadia Hotel in Santa Monica, and he shot her in the eye. She… Read more »
Faith. Though he clearly despises any dependence on it, faith is what RandMan swims in. He can’t get away from it. We can see it dripping from each post he offers in refutation of faith. First of all, we can see a deep and abiding faith in RandMan; that his way is superior to ours. He mocks what he once was, on the faithful assumption that he is now free and enlightened. Yet he refuses to follow the implications of his own materialism. He concedes that all is chemical reaction, but then he contradicts the conclusions of this professed reality… Read more »
RandMan wrote: You should look into the coming AI. The christian idea about morality and what a ‘being’ is is about to get harder. The “coming AI”? That sounds almost messianic. RandMan must be a true believer. Unfortunately, RandMan seems given to the notion that a hand calculator gets the right answer to math problems because it loves to do math. RandMan is like a naive child, captivated by the motions of a puppet, unaware of the man’s hand inside of it. RandMan is transfixed by the actions of a computing machine that can move without anyone pulling the strings.… Read more »
Finally! I was worried that you had lost your appetite for all things presuppositional. The idea that you can ‘fail’ at meditating actually made me laugh. I admire your insistence on trying to tar me with the eff- word. As if wishing for or saying something makes it so. But that is consistent with your philosophy. steady on. 3000 years ago you would have been the rajel scoffing at the idea that Khepri the giant dung beetle isn’t pushing the sun across the sky. See?! god is doing it. But of course your current philosophy is more sophisticated: there is… Read more »
If vipassana meditation is an attempt to see things as they really are, then RandMan can indeed fail. RandMan can wear himself out trying to insult our faith, but I see no need to answer for ancient superstitions that I don’t believe any more than RandMan. RandMan needs to decide if he wants to interact with the Christian faith, or with beliefs about giant dung beetles. I’m happy to give a reason for my hope in Christ once RandMan makes up his mind. Insulting our faith will do nothing to conceal or answer for the faith that RandMan is exercising.… Read more »
Yes, you have stated that all knowledge is grounded on faith before. And it is no truer now that then; an ugly intellectual infant only an apologist could love. Maybe in your dishonest world you can redefine faith to mean the exact opposite, but that’s what you do isn’t it? I don’t need a faith commitment to understand the nature of the atom. Or that aggravated molecules make heat. Or what the sun is made of. Or that we evolved with other mammals from common ancestors. Great minds before have made the leap, done the work and proven the theories.… Read more »
. I DONT KNOW. Good. God can work with honest men, those who seek the truth as you evidently are. AI will be interesting. How will you interact with a being that will outlive you? That is smarter than you? stronger than you? more amoral than you? cares not for you? is more evolutionary fit than you? can remake itself into forms only it can comprehend–being beyond your water-balloon brain to comprehend? Isn’t it funny how the questions–the deep things–never, ever go away. Just because we think we matter, doesn’t mean we do. Unless….there is Somebody who loves us who… Read more »
So you agree there is demon possession, and that madness looks like it sometimes. I agree it would be queer for us to confuse demon possession with marathon running or baking a lemon tart.
No, of course I do not. But you knew that.
Most of us don’t believe in a deity you can conjure. I guess we agree on that.
some materialist: “What makes you think anything exists out of nature?”
His (pseudo-)question even contains the answer — which he will not see. Indeed, the question can’t even be asked were it true that nothing “exists out of nature”.
That there exist rational beings is the *proof* that something “exists out of nature”
Not seeing and seeing-rejecting are two different things. Also your circular logic is showing- tuck it in… Oh, and your last sentence means nothing. Other than that… a very manly post.
His last sentence is a brilliant statement on the existence of the meta-physical. Even godless scientists acknowledge the question and think it is of utmost importance.
The nuns who told me to leave room for my guardian angel to share my desk.
Another good one Randy! You didn’t know or believe that some describe themselves as “evangelical atheists.” After I providing multiple links, you tried to explain it away by distancing yourself from the said individuals. I never claimed you were one; I just said I didn’t invent the term nor was it necessarily a pejorative. In your typical style, you scoffed, made feeble attempts at red herrings and tried to change the subject. But when it comes down to it, evidence, facts and theories mean nothing if they don’t fit into your preconceived notions. And my oh my, what pride and… Read more »
I thought you christians prided yourself in honesty? Never let a little (lot of) misrepresentation get in your way. Go reread our time-wasting exchange. To your second paragraph, that makes little sense. I believe scientific theories BECAUSE of evidence and facts. Faith is an un-virtue. I’m okay with ‘I don’t know’ as an answer about the universe and its mysteries. Until we do know… For example about strange particle physics, black holes and the possibility of vibrating strings. And when those ideas are contradicted by discovery and new testable knowledge, that’s science. Imagine religion saying something like that. As hitchens… Read more »
I agree I wasted time trying to get a basic point across. It’s not nearly as involved as you’re imagining. (a) I used a term (b) you were offended (c) I pointed out that some atheists use the term; in fact, they coined it (d) instead of just admitting you weren’t aware of this, you engaged in all sorts of hand-waving to cover up your ignorance.
Go ahead and have the last word. I have no ego invested nor childish desire to do such.
Again, go reread that before you continue to (seemingly willfully) and dishonestly misrepresent me.
And I am fine with your disappearing act. Ciao.
Randi, seriously, don’t stay away too long. While you are an “aquired taste”, I miss you when you are gone. No matter which way it goes, the metaphorical “Kabuki / 3 stooges” nature of the dialogue does hold some interest!
Not to mention that everyone has their own moments of “otherwise intelligent” now and then! ; – )
“You and “ME” are two sides of the same coin”
LOL! Well Randman, I’m rather honored to have been tossed in your camp by the likes of the ever humble and exceedingly Christ-like mkt.
I appreciate that you compassionately wade in the muck with this lot.
So calling someone out for continued libel and lying isn’t Christ-like?
Guess I’m in the wrong century.
No, you’re alive in the century God meant you to live in. She’s just one of those worshippers of “Nice” … just don’t cross her, lest you learn what “Nice” means to those who have made an idol of it.
But then, you would, since you haven’t the foggiest idea of what “Christ-like” means, and might even admit to your hatred of Christ were you ever to learn.
‘spherians are always so ugly, with dark little souls, all busy shaking their tiny fists so impotently.
Sweetcheeks, I am a man: I don’t need to be pretty; that’s your cross to bear, however much it seems to be causing you to stumble. And since I *am* a man, and not the sort of boy you’re used to manipulating — and despising for being so easy to manipulate – that sad attempt just comes across as feeble.
Sadly for you, I’m not a “’spherian”
“I am a man: I don’t need to be pretty”
LOL! Sounds like you have a bad case of woman envy. Being pretty isn’t a cross to bear, it’s a delightful blessing, one that has never caused me to stumble. Besides, I was speaking of souls here. Men can have beautiful souls, you know.
Afraid of being manipulated are ya? Take heart, oh manly one, I have no interest in you, beyond your obvious comedic effect.
I’ll shoot straight and not be snarky this time. If you still don’t get it, I don’t think there’s anything more I can say. You’ve made serious but unfounded accusations about Dalrock and others on here–mutliple times. You’ve assumed professing Christians hold the same beliefs as secular PUAs–despite the evidence from their blogs. I’m not an apologist for Dal or similar bloggers (Deep Strength, Cane Caldo, etc.). I don’t agree with them on everything; I just think they’re trying to fill an unfortunately large gap. There are huge differences between their teachings and PUAs, though, and you know this. False… Read more »
I have nothing against PUA’s, we’re all flawed people. It is when hatred and bitterness is than promoted in Christ’s name that we’re going to have a problem.
My accusations are not unfounded and yes, you are a apologist for some vile crap.
Your accusations are unfounded. If they weren’t, you would’ve proved them long ago. Asserting something repeatedly and scoffing at all challenges doesn’t make you right.
The only thing vile and not Christ-like is your utter lack of humility and repentance. I’ll leave that between you and God. There’s nothing more I can say.
Hi mkt and ME, I have spent a fascinating few hours reading a few Christian blogs including Dal Rock’s, Caldo’s, Moose North, and some others. I have to say, ME, that while I read much I disagreed with, I did not encounter anything that I thought was truly offensive. I would need to be guided to specific posts. The dominant impression I got was that these men are feeling under constant and relentless attack, not only from women who regard them as knuckle-draggers but from their own spiritual leaders. Of course they are going to circle the wagons and complain… Read more »
“Understand that women need to complain and vent, but never say anything critical back.”
https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg
Sweetcheeks, I am a man — and an old one, at that — and I’m still “prettier” (*) than a good half the women in America. I most certainly do not have a case of “woman envy”.
I do, however, have a very advanced case of disgust at the hypocrisy of American women, including most of those who call themselves Christians.
(*) both inside and out
Well Old-Man-Who-is-Prettier-Than-Half- the-Women- in America, your Advanced Case of Disgust is rotting your soul and I believe a man as old as you should know better than to behave in such a way.
Easy stud. Don’t know if we can handle much more of your anonymous manliness… we might not be strong enough.
Well, it’s true, intellectually dishonest persons (of either sex) cannot handle the directness that comes with manliness.
Cannot handle it… correct. I am intimidated by your unapologetic direct manliness.
So you’re going to rest your being on never accepting anything solid and never diving in? Always picking, smelling, knowing nothing. Come to Jesus and find something worth investing in.
“As hitchens said, Religion no longer explains anything important.”
In general it can accurately be said that religion has never explained anything, important or otherwise. Christianity however explains having a relationship with Jesus, which is important.
And zoroastrianism explains having a relationship with ahura mazda the true one god to them. See where I am going with this? I bet you didn’t even think twice about how ridiculous their claim is.
I see you are operating on the ridiculous assumption that all religions have the same likelihood of being true.
From what little I’ve read Zoroastrianism doesn’t really feature a relationship with ahura mazda, I think that’s more your ridiculous claim than theirs.
Speaking of the quality of one’s assumptions, it doesn’t appear that RandMan has even a basic knowledge of the actual case. Dr. Walsh had just been hired to be a District Health Director in Georgia. He resigned his position in Pasadena, California, and was in the process of moving to Georgia when the Department of Public Health fired him based on his religious convictions (which they had just been reviewing extensively the previous day). RandMan says that Walsh was fired because he didn’t comply with state law. Which state law is RandMan referring to? Walsh resigned his position in California.… Read more »
It’s like RandMan is pretending we can’t read the blog post on this very web page. Am I going crazy?
There is no blog post on this very web page.
I see what Swerens did there. He gaslighted himself.
“Otherwise intelligent” strikes again! ????
I … I could have sworn I put that blog post right here somewhere.
RandMan said: The Department of Health stated that Dr. Walsh failed to disclose outside employment as required by law. So Dr. Walsh was not fired over his sermons but because he didn’t comply with state law. Well, it is good to know that if that if, say, Chick-Fil-A ever fired an executive, you (being the fair person that you are) would agree with the Chick-Fil-A owners that it was because of that minor typo in her resume and not because they found out yesterday that she was gay. Edit: For the record, I don’t think that Chick-Fil-A would do that… Read more »
It is still a chilling precedent. As you know, I have no religious objection to evolutionary theory. But I believe a whole boatload of doctrines that are dismissed by many as ridiculous superstition. Assuming I do my job well, should anyone say I am unfit to be a public health official because I believe in the existence of angels and miracles? Am I unfit to teach physics because I believe in the literal ascension of our Lord? Assuming he carries out the duties of the position, should a Hindu be prevented from working for the Department of Agriculture because he… Read more »
I think Gaslighting is more like playing with someone’s sense of reality. Suppose your wife sees you coming out of a hotel with a beautiful young woman. You reply: “You met her at that party six months ago (she didn’t), she is the new controller for the company (she isn’t), you know we got that contract for the pool installation (when you work for the phone company), why are you so jealous all the time?” And your poor wife wants to believe that any part of this tissue of lies might be true. So she questions her own senses, and… Read more »
That’s Hannity’s stock in trade, and why I stopped listening to him over a decade ago.
Me too!
Sometimes right wing interviewers do it as well. “So you’re admitting to the American public that your ideas on health care reform came right from the pages of Karl Marx?” That’s not quite the same thing, unless the interviewee owns the Marx connection. But since I think a growing number of liberals would own a Marxist connection to their ideas, those right wingers need to up their game. But I think you’re right. Gaslighting is trying to convince someone that they’re crazy. The other is using a feigned astonishment (with an appeal to the bandwagon) to try and convince others… Read more »
Remember not long ago when evangelicals were up in arms about Kim Davis having to choose between her conscience and her job?
Evangelicals are hypocrites. They’re not concerned about liberty of conscience for everyone; only people who agree with their views deserve protection for their beliefs. The government should respect the rights of evangelicals to dissent from the prevailing orthodoxies, but it’s free to trample the rights of anyone evangelicals don’t like.
Best get used to it, folks. Things are just getting warmed up. Here’s a Jewish Harvard Law School professor calling for liberals to stop putzing around and start using the courts to treat Christians like Nazis: A Harvard law professor has called for liberals to begin treating like Nazis those who subscribe to Christian or conservative beliefs. In a Friday blog post at Balkinization, Mark Tushnet said conservatives and Christians have lost the culture wars, and now the question is “how to deal with the losers.” “My own judgment is that taking a hard line (‘You lost, live with it’)… Read more »
Eric the Red’s Utilitarianism is of great comfort here.
You’re not going crazy, Christian…http://tinyurl.com/gtjls8a
Well, Walsh is suing for religious discrimination. If there is sufficient evidence, then under the Civil Rights Act — yeah, that one — he should win. In other words, the system hasn’t failed yet.
Matt assures us that the system hasn’t failed yet, but who has to pay for the Georgia Department of Public Health legal defense when (if?) they lose? Would that be the good people of Georgia? I’m not seeing where there is real accountability for progressives who want to keep pulling these stunts until they can get away with it in the courts. They don’t seem to have much to lose, even if they lose. They are backstopped in their agenda by someone else’s money (the taxpayer).
Thank you, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King of Kings! What a brave new world you gave us! George Washington was the father of the old hateful America, but now MLK is America’s baby daddy! Ignoring the pleas of LGBT citizens in the small town of Pinedale, Wyoming, a state agency is demanding that – after over 20 years of sterling service – Judge Ruth Neely be banned for life from the judiciary and pay up to $40,000 in fines merely for stating that her faith prevents her from personally performing same-sex weddings. Even though small-town magistrates like Judge Neely aren’t… Read more »
That didn’t take long.
And so we find that it is not a question of whether there will be discrimination, but only which form of discrimination will be exercised, and justified.
Thanks to 40 ACRES for the link.
Some would say that if persecution is coming, then Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum.
Or, “if you want peace, prepare for war.”
Well, now you can.
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/05/george-zimmerman-to-sell-gun-used-to-kill-trayvon-martin-help-fund-anti-clinton-effort.html/
It would be wild if President Trump bid a million dollars.
So here’s a question for everyone to ponder. As far as I understand it, the case of Walsh involves two instances, one in CA and one in GA, where there was some sort of outrage directed at him. I haven’t seen any indication that this involved any more than something like Facebook outrage or letters-to-the-editor type stuff. So the question is: why don’t you all just do the same thing? It has worked before, so why not again? If it won’t work, why not?
Christians are revolting. Finally! a call to civil disobedience
https://twitter.com/MikeSAdams
I think I will go burn a rainbow flag….