Over the years, as I have written on culture and race, I have had to write on two fronts. In order to engage with the MSNBC-approved narrative, I need to engage with the Black Lives Matter kind of evil, which is all the thing these days. It is evil and popular with the cool kids. But you can’t sin in every direction at once. Certain sins are inconsistent with each other, which means that some sins, some evils, always have to be unpopular. White smugness used to be a reigning and open sin, and now it isn’t. But the fact that it is not openly running the show any longer does not mean the attitudes aren’t there. The smugness is still present, but has to hide itself by various devices.
A bunch of people are still clinging to idolatrous assumptions about race, but quietly, unless they have had too much to drink. One of my daughters was traveling by air once, with her baby and other children, and a fellow passenger, who had gotten more alcohol into her system than was perhaps suitable or appropriate, loudly blessed my daughter for doing her part in perpetuating the white race. Um, thanks for nothing, ma’am.
But problems run in the other direction too. If a thug gets shot in Milwaukee by a black cop, and the obligatory rioting and looting begin, in order to distract us all from the current stupidity somebody starts gesturing toward some of our by-gone stupidities. Somebody argues that we have to start cracking down on the crackers, as though they were capable of taking over anything more than somebody else’s comment thread.
However, despite the fact that this is a clear diversionary move, there are crackers out there. There are enclaves in which you may find an assorted collection of white racists, racialists, and swamp frogs that say bigot bigot bigot. Some representatives of those enclaves—which some cleaned up conservatives want to pretend don’t exist at all anymore—do show up, suitably anonymous, for any and all discussions on race. As some may have noticed, they do this frequently in the comments section of this blog. For a representative sampling, you might want to scroll through the comments section of my most recent response to Thabiti.
Such being the case, it is time for a few housekeeping notices—I want to remind everyone of my policy on such things. When comments are reported to me (which Disqus enables you all to do), I usually nix about half of the reported comments. The comments I delete are usually the ones which have descended to personal invective or other forms of outrageous insult. If the comment is sinful in other ways, representing an outrageous sentiment, then I let it stand. If you don’t like the content of what a man says, then answer him. But try to do it without descending to personal invective.
Under this regime, the contributor called 40 Acres has had many comments deleted, but he has also had many comments reported to me which I leave alone. Whenever I delete a comment, whether it is from 40 Acres or Ryan Sather, it is usually for the same reason. People can be reckless and irresponsible from any number of directions. Malice can be both pc and non-pc. As the proprietor of this blog, I do take responsibility for trying to keep things from degenerating into a food fight. I do not feel responsible to remove the content of an argument that someone finds offensive. We need more practice dealing with that, not less.
I have been falsely accused of racism many times; it is said by some acute thinkers that I am a believer in white supremacy. But I do not comprehend how anybody could be a white supremacist who has spent more than fifteen minutes considering who runs our country, and how they have been running it. Most recently, a country of 300 million has narrowed their choice for president down to Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. If this is white supremacy, then white supremacy has been vastly over-rated. Now I know that some might think I am not making distinctions carefully enough here. Fine. I am not the kind of white supremacist who would support Hillary, and I am not an orange supremacist either.
But I have also been accused, in various ways, of being some sort of race traitor. Those who have been reading this blog for a while know that one of my battles of yore was with the kinists—whom I affectionately called skinists—and their web haunt at the time, which was called Little Geneva.
So that you might be better able to keep your balance in these imbalanced times, allow me to provide you with a link to one of the more important statements from that particular battle. It is here, and comments are open.
I’ve done some googling, and looking through old links and forums, and that particular bunch of kinist’s publications seem to have mostly gone down the memory hole. Thanks goodness – they seem to have been a toxic bunch. No more Badlands blog, no more Little Geneva.
As a sidenote, I like to think that kinism has an alternate etymology rooted in the old word “kine,” meaning cows.
Yes, kinists aren’t humans but livestock. Unlike those wicked and proud racists, you are righteous and moral and humble.
Etymology doesn’t work that way. If anything, Kinist would mean one who believes in cows. Or lives with them. And if poking a little gentle fun at people who want to outlaw interracial marriage makes me a bad person, so be it.
Loosen up, man.
Kinists are apparently thin skinned.
But they would like to emphasize that their thin skin is very white.
Kinism is a good-faith attempt to reconcile a pre-1960s view on race with Christian morality and ontology. Anti-racist name-calling from mainstream evangelical Christians prevents this good-faith discussion from occurring. There are political ideologies much worse than kinism among racially-conscious whites, and people like Carson are ensuring they gain in popularity.
Two thoughts – a) You took his statement in the worst possible way rather than a joke. That shows you have thin (white) skin. b) Reconciling with pre-1960s views on race is a dumb effort. The attitudes that came up in the Americas about race in the 18-20th centuries are not biblical nor are they scientific. They are just dumb and mean. In my opinion, it is the rise of Christianity in America (church attendance hit an all time high in the 1960s) that caused the fall of those attitudes. Why would you want to resurrect them? And I would… Read more »
Yes how overly serious of me. Haha, conservative white Christians who want to return to a normative, traditional social structure have unwittingly branded their movement to mean they want to live with cattle. Or except they actually didn’t but Carson wanted to pretend they did to have himself a good chuckle. Haha what a comedian! With the sarcasm aside, let’s get to the rest of this. The rise of Christianity coincided with the 60’s? You have to be kidding me. Here’s to hoping that the “Histo” in your handle has nothing to do with you being a historian. The obvious… Read more »
By “traditional” you mean the last couple centuries out of 20 centuries. Because your tradition reflects at most 1700 to 1950 morals. Christians before and after that 250 year period did not hold the views you call traditional. And yes, Christianity hit an all time high of church attendance in the 1960s. Here is the data…. http://www.gallup.com/poll/166613/four-report-attending-church-last-week.aspx Data generally works better than gut feeling on how history works. By the way, historically in America, prior to the great awakenings of the late 18th and 19th centuries, church attendance was low. Like half of what it is now. And in the… Read more »
Eagle, another thing you might want to take note of in your “race realism” is how bad the white race has been at various points in history. For example, in 15th century London the murder rate was twice what modern Detroit’s murder rate is. What if the Chinese in 1450 said, “let’s be realistic, those English folk will always be violent thugs.”? Europe has had plenty of violence, thuggish behavior, and etc. You are comparing cultures at a certain moment and claiming superiority when history certainly does not support your case.
Two-and-a-half centuries is plenty of time to establish traditional mores, and this time length certainly incorporates a majority of the American experience. Regardless, racial politics is largely the product of post-Columbus exploration and settlement–Europeans weren’t interacting with Africans or Indians for much of their history. You can’t expect to read accounts about race from the medievalists when they never interacted with anyone but fellow Europeans. Note they had little to say about transgenderism also, but that doesn’t mean the Christian opposition to sex-changes isn’t rooted in beliefs the church has traditionally held. Which segues to the obvious point; every criticism… Read more »
I love that you think Europeans didn’t interact with Africans or Indians prior to Columbus. Have you ever heard of the Ethiopian Eunich (Acts 7)? Have you ever heard of the Byzantine Empire (that was largely a North African Empire)? Have you ever heard of the Malankara Syrian Church? The Mediterranean was a very diverse place with people of all ethnicities and cultures coming together. The idea that Europeans in 1750 were better positioned to understand race than Mediterranean Christians of the ancient Roman Empire shows pretty spectacular ignorance on your part. The fact that pro-homosexual groups have coopted Christian… Read more »
“Kinists are apparently thin skinned.”
Does that make them thinskinnists?
Can you become a kinist if you can’t stand your own kin but you like some other person’s kin?
thinwhiteskinist
It is a bit of a strange name for a movement.
All the good names were taken! ; -)
I’m not sure if you’re including me among the “Some representatives of those enclaves do show up, suitably anonymous, for any and all discussions on race”? I will say that I don’t come from one of these enclaves, and will also add I’ve been commenting (under a different name) on evangelical blogs about plenty of other topics for almost a decade. My comments depend on my area of study at the time. I’ve just started studying the issue of mass immigration and inter-ethnic relations during the last year due to national developments. One thing I learned immediately is that to… Read more »
I sometimes think it’s as though the white establishment/government opened up a restaurant just for blacks, where the daily special is always a crap sandwich. Every day the waitress approaches the table and says, “Today’s special is the crap sandwich. You can have it on white or rye with any sides you want.” The black patron looks at her and replies, “Look. You can put it on rye. You can put it on white. You can serve it fried up with a pickle spear. You can put coleslaw and hot sauce on it, but it is still a crap sandwich.”… Read more »
Yes, blacks have it so bad here. Which is why American blacks are the wealthiest group of Africans anywhere, including countries they have run themselves for generations (Haiti, Liberia).
Do you see the problem here? You have to go out of the country to third world nations to make your point. How about comparing them to people in this country. They are American, after all.
Do you see my point here? Why aren’t there white “third world nations”?
I don’t think JL has either made or understood a point on this thread yet. But he certainly seems to think he’s clever. (If JL is a “she,” my apologies.)
Not clever, just expecting a rational discourse.
Feel free to do you part, then. I tried looking at your analogy from several angles, and it was honestly quite terrible each time. What do you expect the “government/establishment” to do?
It is quite possible it was a terrible analogy. You’d think after reading Scripture so much I’d have a better knack for it. :) Honestly, I don’t expect the government to do anything more than magnify the hearts of the people. It seems that most individuals want to “do what is right in their own eyes”, so why would it surprise us that the government is the same? Then, the question becomes what can we as Americans do about it? Both whites and blacks have valid grievances. I don’t think anyone can realistically argue otherwise. Perhaps the first step might… Read more »
Race is real and strongly affects both physical and mental characteristics.
“Equal in Christ” is not a scriptural concept.
“To democratize Christianity they have to falsify the texts, reading ‘equal’ where they say ‘brother.’ My brothers? Yes. My equals? No. Because there are older and younger brothers.”
Is race defined in Scripture? I’m not aware of it if it is. I would appreciate being corrected on it. As for equal in Christ, I should have been more explicit. I was referring to this text in Galatians 3: “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” In referencing this text, I am… Read more »
I think anywhere you read ‘nation’ in Scripture you can reasonably substitute ‘ethnicity’ — obviously ‘race’ is a larger grouping than that. So it may not be directly referenced in Scripture, but neither are hurricanes, potatoes, or kangaroos — we don’t have to ignore directly observable physical phenomena just because they aren’t named explicitly in the Bible.
This is actually a pretty fascinating topic. My understanding is not very deep on the Ancient Near East as far as “racial” differences between tribes and nations, but I do think Scripture offers some clues. An obvious one is in Genesis when Joseph’s brothers confused him for an Egyptian, and later in Exodus when the Israelites thought Moses was Egyptian royalty. The explanations are limited. Either there were many races of people roaming around that were identified as Egyptian or there were not significant differences in physical characteristics between Abraham’s descendants and Egyptians. I would think the second one would… Read more »
I don’t doubt that there wasn’t a lot of immediately distinguishable differences between Near East peoples. Similarly, I bet there are people in your neighbourhood/town that aren’t visibly distinguishable from your extended family, despite not being closely related to you.
Thanks for the further explanation. Our views aren’t that different. I think the frustration that Eagle_Eyed and others of us have is the “conversations” are more like monologues. A group of teary-eyed whites apologize for things they had nothing to do with (slavery, segregation, etc.). The blacks aren’t expected to seek repentance or even admit to the huge problems in their own communities (extremely high rates of crime & out-of-wedlock children, sense of entitlement, racism, etc.) If it is brought up, somehow it’s blamed on “white privilege,” the fact that slavery “only” ended over 150 years ago, etc. However many… Read more »
Thanks, mkt. I think we do have some similar views. I also find the white suicide enthusiasts scary beyond description. (“You want us to all die? Okay, we can do that. How’s this?!” boom. thud) I really think the problem here is not one of race but of culture. If we move from the hot button race conversation to a more honest cultural one, we might make more progress. So to your example of SE Asian folks coming here and working hard, I have a slightly different insight having lived in that region of the world for a while. Take… Read more »
To clarify, when I say third world, I mean countries whose people are barely subsisting as opposed to the original Cold War definition, although many of these countries fit both. Here is a partial list of white third world countries:
Moldova
Georgia
Armenia
Albania
Ukraine
Bosnia
Azerbaijan
Guatemala
Honduras
Nicaragua
Bolivia
Paraguay
El Salvador
So all of the times whites have been passed over for lesser qualified candidates (in academia, the workforce, etc.) and the large amount they’ve contributed towards transfer payments, are, in your estimation, a feces sandwich?
With that sort of thinking, no wonder you couldn’t come up with a better analogy.
Actually, I think you proved my point beautifully.
Overall I agree — the fundamental problem with race relations in America is the expectation that whites and blacks have the same desires, goals, motivations, or behavioural norms. Where Americans failed was in expecting blacks to become different-looking whites.
I agree to a point. Even before desegregation there were cultural differences as you would expect between people who came here from Europe and those who were brought here from Africa. Christianity did more to level the playing field than anything that whites could ever or have ever done at the political or social engineering level. Before desegregation, the blacks had their own society and culture. There was marriage stability. People worked hard and did pretty well. Children were well educated. There was a strong, stable structure in the black community centered around the church. Desegregation, no matter the motives,… Read more »
I agree and think that a return to segregation would be much better than what we have now.
I could be wrong, but I think going back is neither possible nor advisable. Even with a better social structure, segregation was no bed of roses for most blacks. I think your comment speaks to how bad it is now, that those days seem better. I guess the question is, if we returned to God’s law, and made all people equal under the law, would that resolve the situation or is it too late? The sad part to me is that race is perfect example of what happens when man creates categories that our Creator never intended. It’s so, well,… Read more »
I don’t believe equality is possible or desirable.
Race/ethnicity/nationality are just the natural extensions of ancestry and family. Nothing sinful or “fleshly” about that.
I absolutely agree. I wasn’t clear. By fleshly I meant skin color. Sorry about that.
Race realism is out-of-the-bag now, and there has to be a better response to it from a Christian perspective than “whites are still the real racists!” Such a move will only serve to drive conservative whites away from Christianity. Should we not care about the salvation of “rednecks”? Should our message and worldview not incorporate their concerns? Reading this screed, I believe we have Wilson’s answer. Feigning ignorance about how the geographical separation of groups of people (which caused noticeable group differences in physical traits such as height, facial structure, skin color, hair texture, etc.) could cause temperamental and intelligence… Read more »
Yeah, imagine if DW had put a picture of a stereotypical “ghetto dweller” instead of a cracker. We should either be able to poke fun at both or leave both out of such discussions. Until we get to that point, the conversation will continue to be lopsided.
And I’m no fan of the kinists, for the record.
Pretty much every cultural and political issue in America (including this one) over the past couple centuries is and has been about conflict between “good whites” and “bad whites”.
(As a metaphysical theory, “white supremacy” is ridiculous, not to mention unscriptural — but as a historical fact, it’s indisputable.)
ashv wrote: (As a metaphysical theory, “white supremacy” is ridiculous, not to mention unscriptural — but as a historical fact, it’s indisputable.) Who’s defining supremacy? I’m guessing ashv isn’t referring to basketball, boxing, sprinting, or marathons. It might be prudent to consider that “supremacy” is not defined by “whatever I’m good at”. We don’t have to deny that there are strengths and weaknesses that generally track, at various times, with races, however, ashv seems to think that the strengths of his whiteness are objectively supreme over the strengths and gifts of other races. Why should anyone think that white strengths… Read more »
I mean that white people have conquered the world militarily as well as ideologically, and excelled in wealth creation and in amassing power. I’m certainly not going to claim this is entirely or even mostly good, just that it’s happened.
ashv wrote: I mean that white people have conquered the world militarily as well as ideologically, and excelled in wealth creation and in amassing power. I’m certainly not going to claim this is entirely or even mostly good, just that it’s happened. This is from the same guy who claimed that “white supremacy” is an indisputable, historical fact. Now this supremacy has become morally ambiguous? Is a white supremacist allowed to question the goodness of supremacy itself? What if whites are just more efficient international bullies, and global busybodies? That’s what the libertarians say, right? Ashv has struck a chord… Read more »
If “white supremacists” aren’t allowed to question the goodness of white supremacy, then obviously I am not one. (As a Southern nationalist, I blame white people for most of the bad stuff done to my country.)
Christianity and Islam weren’t produced by whites, no. But liberal democracy was. It hasn’t taken over everywhere, but it’s certainly had a good try at it.
Debt creation didn’t really get started at the level you’re talking about until the 20th century.
ashv did claim that white supremacy was an indisputable historical fact. That would make him a white supremacist, by definition, even if he does question the value of it. ashv wrote: Christianity and Islam weren’t produced by whites, no. But liberal democracy was. It hasn’t taken over everywhere, but it’s certainly had a good try at it. This is a really strange boast. Wasn’t ashv the one who said that democracy was a disaster, and advocated for reduced freedom and monarchy instead? Ashv may as well have boasted that whites are superior because of leading the world in guilt-based socialism.… Read more »
this is what conservatives actually believe
I’m not buying that conservatives are white supremacists. At this point I can’t tell if ashv even wants to be considered a conservative or not. He seems to just want to cynically recast and shape the definition of the term for us.
As I have repeatedly said, I am not a conservative, since 1) American conservatism is based on little more than sentiment and 2) there is practically nothing left for it to conserve.
I’m white. I’ve been driving for close to fifty years, during which time I’ve probably been pulled over by the police maybe a dozen times. Not once did I ever worry that my life was in danger or that the encounter might result in me getting shot. I might have been annoyed that I was getting a speeding ticket, but I never worried that I might not make it home that night. I’ve never been hassled by the police for being in the wrong neighborhood. I’ve never had the police stop me and demand to see ID for no reason.… Read more »
Krychek, I am a white, former law enforcement officer. I would say that most of the people that I have pulled over said that I pulled them over “for no reason.” The original story on Michael Brown’s death as told by African American eyewitnesses was often that “he had his hands up trying to surrender when the officer shot him.” I am not saying that ALL of the complaints levied against law enforcement officers are false but many, many are. There is something else that people don’t know unless they have worked as a cop in an urban setting. Most… Read more »
I listen to a podcast from NPR called This American Life. Not long after the Eric Garner case, they did a program about this stuff. I believe it was called “What Cops Know”, but I wouldn’t swear to it. They asked an inner city cop about Eric Garner – “he said he couldn’t breathe, so at that point aren’t the officers obligated to back off?” The cop replied that something like 85% of the people they arrest immediately start claiming they can’t breathe, even if they’re just sitting in the back of the squad car. They’re just trying to avoid… Read more »
As someone who has both worked law enforcement and Fire/EMS (my current job) in an urban setting, I can attest to the general veracity of the account you heard on NPR. 85% is probably a high number, but the fact is that it is not an infrequent occurrence to hear a suspect complain that they cannot breath. Most are trying to get out of going to jail. Some are having legitimate anxiety attacks. Some (like Garner) suffer from positional asphyxiation. I have seen more than one ingest crack cocaine in an effort to get rid of the evidence and suffer… Read more »
Do you disagree, though, that when someone claims not to be able to breathe, the stakes are high enough that there is a duty to at least check it out? That if someone may die, it’s better to err on the side of caution?
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they did it all the time, for no good reason.”
Krychek, it’s not just that simple. If I am wrestling with someone, trying to get them in handcuffs, and I release my grip and cede even the slightest amount of control of the situation when they complain of shortness of breath, the best that could happen (if they are faking) is for them to break and run, the worst is for them to get my gun or pull a weapon of their own and shoot me with it. This is what I am talking about. We need to have these conversations because your average citizen is perfectly comfortable criticizing the… Read more »
It’s astonishing how many evangelical preachers are essentially arguing that black men have a right to violently resist the police without suffering any bad consequences.
Doug hasn’t, but some of his posts about Eric Garner and other cases have skated very close to that position.
And he appears to be fully on board with Thabiti Anyabwile’s wicked lie that there’s a serious epidemic of racist white cops pulling over black men for no good reason, and gunning many of them down. Instead of rebuking Anyabwile for this outrageous, hateful garbage, Doug keeps praising him to high heaven.
Well, I, for one, will never wear a badge again, and I have encouraged my son to steer clear of law enforcement as a profession, as well. If folks want to armchair quarterback police officers from a vantage point of ignorance, let them. I don’t rely on the police for my protection. The populations that do are the ones complaining the most and they are the populations that will suffer the most when police officers pull back from doing proactive policing. As I said before, we are already seeing the effects. I just think that those evangelical preachers need to… Read more »
Initially, I tried reaching out to a number of these men in the hopes of helping them understand the scope of what they are addressing a little better. So far, none of them seem to want to discuss it with me or with any other officer who has worked in the urban setting. I’m not surprised. I wouldn’t get my hopes up about hearing back from them. You don’t get to write editorials for the New York Times by sticking up for white cops. You get to write editorials for the New York Times by denouncing white cops as wicked… Read more »
I have a friend who is a retired battalion commander in Canada. I asked him once why he chose the fire department over the police, and he said, “Well, gee, what do you think? The city gives the cops a gun, the city gives fire fighters a pillow. When I go down the street in the fire truck, everyone waves. Children come up to me in restaurants and ask me friendly questions and treat me like a hero. Have you seen how they talk about cops? No parent ever says “You be good, son, or I will have that fireman… Read more »
I understand your reasoning, and will do the same thing with my son. Still, coming from someone who seems like he was one of really good cops, this is the most frightening thing I have read in a long time.
Maybe you guys should spend more time asking German, British, Kiwi, etc. cops how they handle such situations.
De-escalate is the kiwi position.
Yup – I recently read a Christian book written by a New Zealand police officer, and at one point he mentions that their motto is “Safer Communities Together”, and humorously compares it to the more gung-ho mottos of agencies from other countries that he’s worked with.
Which book?
Yes, that’s our police motto.
And this is a classic video with typical kiwi cop advice.
I need to say that Kiwis represent a disproportionate number of the greatest people in my life. I can name at least 9 who you could put up against anyone in the world. Just extraordinary. (Of course, I’ve never been to New Zealand, so maybe I just haven’t encountered the riff-raff.) The book was “God in a Brothel”. A quick word on it, because I hate mentioning specific books without giving my two cents. The guy who wrote it has a really good heart and I love his intentions. It’s actually surprising we didn’t cross paths at some point because… Read more »
Yes, I have read that book. Enjoyed it, but like yourself was disappointed with aspects of it. (Assuming you have finished the book—spoilers). While his fall was upsetting and he acknowledged it, it seemed that he did not really grasp the magnitude. Nor do I fault his wife for leaving him, though reconciliation would have been preferable; but (from memory) it seemed that he faced that and moved on to continue his work, failing to see that trying to fix his marriage, and succeeding, would be worth the cost of losing doing that type of ministry ever again. Interestingly, my… Read more »
For me he passed over too many aspects of that for me to really judge whether he responded appropriately or not. To his credit, at least he was honest and repented, privately and publicly. He certainly may have failed to do enough required or have been willing to sacrifice as much as he needed to for the sake of his marriage – I agree with what you say if your look at the situation is true. I obviously do not fault his wife, even though I’m very strong anti-divorce. But for me, the big issue was that he didn’t seem… Read more »
Thanks, that all seems reasonable though it is a while since I read the book. I think my daughter’s view of his immaturity was based on him glorifying the raids, so perhaps along the lines of your complaints. I don’t think undercover work is intrinsically wrong, one is allowed to imitate a sinner though one is not allowed to sin. Though whether that approach is even effective as you wonder, I do not know. As to my earlier thoughts, it is not that I object to people being involved in ministry, I just have a small amount of cynicism. The… Read more »
I agree with what you’re saying. I just checked the book, and I don’t think he rushed back to ministry. He’s seems to have basically left that work after his falling (though he did keep a lot of speaking engagements and tried to keep the word out).
However, I had also mis-remembered the degree of his honesty. While he confessed to a pastor very quickly, he didn’t open up to his wife until much, much later.
Assuming all of that to be true, which I’m not sure I do, when someone says they can’t breathe, the consequences of being wrong about it are great enough that the police have a duty to at least check it out. If the person is lying, they can always charge him with making a false statement to law enforcement, but you don’t just ignore someone who says they can’t breathe.
Says the genius who lies all the time, and has a “sense” that cops are constantly pullilng young black men over for no good reason.
Says the guy who thinks abuse is a substitute for actually substantiating his claims.
It’s not abuse.
It’s the truth.
You’re a liar.
Here’s the substantiation, which anyone can read for themselves.
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/cracking-down-on-crackers.html#comment-2841480182
So just to clarify, you don’t have any actual argument; all you’ve got is name calling.
Can you not read?
You’ve been lying about me for two days.
I’ve been denying your lies, and arguing that you’re a liar.
Here’s the substantiation that you’ve been lying about me, which anyone can read for themselves.
That’s not name-calling. That’s the thread you’re lying about.
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/cracking-down-on-crackers.html#comment-2841480182
Dear Badonicus: I see you haven’t changed in the last ten years. Anyone who disagrees with you is a liar, an idiot, or both. What I wrote was based on my good-faith understanding of what you had said. Even if it was completely mistaken, it would have been a mistake rather than a deliberate lie. It would make no sense to tell a deliberate lie when the words at issue are right there in the thread for anyone to see. Again, you might try being charitable and giving people the benefit of the doubt rather than just launch into a… Read more »
Dear Norman Neal Williams,
LMAO
Late stage GRID dementia?
How well has that method worked for you in the past?
“I listen to a podcast from NPR called This American Life.”
Wow. That particular episode sounds informative, but I’d probably have road rage if listened to very much NPR (and I’m way too white to pull the race card if got pulled over).
NPR is the only radio I listen to. The morning and afternoon news shows. Yes, it’s “liberal” (Jewish), but it’s very well done. And I have no trouble ignoring the left-wing garbage. It’s hilarious to hear Christians and Republicans make fun of NPR. Instead of National Public Radio, they call it National Socialist Radio. Yeah, that’s right. Jews are 2% of the population, but probably around half of NPR’s on air talent. NPR is so Jewish, in fact, that at one point, they had two different reporters named Ari Shapiro. And cuckservatives call it Nazi Radio. This American Life is… Read more »
I thought it was called National Propaganda Radio.
But there are Jewish conservatives, you know. Early in my marriage I met one of my new Jewish cousins by marriage who told me I could not understand what it means to be one of an oppressed minority. I expressed mild scepticism, simply because Los Angeles is not a place where Jews routinely encounter discrimination or ethnic hatred, and they are way more than 2% of the local population. He looked at me, and said: It’s not about being Jewish, it’s about being a member of the NRA!”
Unfortunately, I often come to the conclusion that the liberal hosts and guests on NPR are more serious than those of the 4 local talk stations I have programmed as presets in my car radio who merely regurgitate old Republican/Conservative myths and oversimplifications.
I usually turn it off when they come to their obligatory daily piece on some tranny doing something “courageous,” or feeling victimized by whatever, but hearing this morning one of their progressive female editorialists admit that male-to-female trannies shouldn’t compete against women in the Olympics was pretty rich.
I think he might be referring to these episodes:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/547/cops-see-it-differently-part-one
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/548/cops-see-it-differently-part-two
Yes, those were the ones.
Not surprising, since we all know that progressive liberals are more racist than faux conservatives.
In your view, what would have been the issue with backing off of Eric Garner at that point? Have you seen the video?
There’s a reason why we have 1,000+ police killings in America every year, when most other Western countries only have 1-5.
There’s a reason why we have 1,000+ police killings in America every year, when most other Western countries only have 1-5. Actually, there are two reasons. Most Western countries have a lot fewer blacks, and they don’t allow them (or anyone else) to own guns. In your view, what would have been the issue with backing off of Eric Garner at that point? Have you seen the video? I’ve seen the video, but I wasn’t there. There was a black supervisor overseeing everything, and she didn’t seem to think he was in any danger. They say if you can talk,… Read more »
600 of the people killed had no gun on them at all. A large number of the ones with a gun on them were not pointing it at anyone when killed (and it’s not supposed to be a death penalty offense to carry a gun in America). And there are millions of guns in many other Western countries. So no, you can’t blame the mere presence of guns. I love how casually you toss around your racism. But Germany/UK combined have over 2,000,000 Black people. If they were being killed at the rate that American police kill Black people, those… Read more »
600 of the people killed had no gun on them at all. A large number of the ones with a gun on them were not pointing it at anyone when killed (and it’s not supposed to be a death penalty offense to carry a gun in America). And there are millions of guns in many other Western countries. So no, you can’t blame the mere presence of guns. Please read more carefully. I didn’t blame the “mere presence of guns.” In fact, “guns” wasn’t even the first factor I mentioned. 600 of the people killed had no gun on them?… Read more »
So explain why those other countries don’t have these same problems with 600 unarmed men of their own needing to be killed by the cops? I crunched the numbers for you already and they didn’t match your narrative.
And anyone who is listening to 40’s description of Eric Garner “resisting arrest” as if that makes him dangerous, I encourage you to watch the unedited video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpGxagKOkv8
“If he were white, you wouldn’t even know his name. So spare me your crocodile tears for Garner.”
That is an outright lie. I could right now name off 25-30 White people who were killed by cops under poorly justifiable circumstances in the last two years.
You made multiple false claims about me – that I don’t know the names of White people similarly killed by cops, and that I am crying “crocodile tears”. You clearly are not in touch with the Spirit in your accusations.
Certainly, I’m not in touch with the same “spirit” that animates you.
And, as Martha likes to say, “That’s a good thing.”
“Don’t you think we can have cops from those other nations weigh in on
this and explain why it isn’t happening there all the time?”
Sounds good to me.
Scotland has been doing some small trainings for US cops recently. Of course, to have a significant effect, it has to be done much more seriously and on a far broader scale.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/12047056/US-police-gather-in-Scotland-to-learn-how-to-protect-and-serve-without-guns.html
http://news.sky.com/story/scots-police-teach-us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069
Going by demographics again, if Scottish police killed people at the rate American police do, they’d kill 15 people a year. Or 150 people every ten years.
Instead, they kill about 1 person every decade.
The last time a Scottish police officer was killed by a suspect was 1994. They have exactly 0 cops killed by suspects in the last 22 years.
Though I don’t mean to imply that poor ROE at the point of contact are the sole reason we have such an outlandish number of police killings. It’s only one of several huge factors. For me, I think the biggest factors (I’m not sure in what order) are: * Actions by police in dealing with subjects that tend to escalate conflict rather than deescalate * Generally poor care for mentally ill people * Enormous societal distrust between minority communities (most especially Black communities) and police departments * Heightened crime rates in Black and other minority communities, in large part due… Read more »
You might be referring to “Cops See it Differently.” It was a really good pair of episodes.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/547/cops-see-it-differently-part-one
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/548/cops-see-it-differently-part-two
Of course many of the complaints levied against the police are false claims, but do you dispute that young black males are disproportionately singled out for police attention? Are you saying that racism is never the motivation? And would you be willing to be a young, black man in one of those neighborhoods where police proactively pull people over for broken tail lights to check for outstanding warrants? As with everything else, there are two sides to it. I get that police have difficult jobs, and I get that many of the people they legitimately arrest will say anything, true… Read more »
Be consistent. Show us empirical data that racism is ever the motivation for these stops.
Well, there is the report the Justice Department released just a few days ago about the Baltimore police department. I just googled “empirical data for racial profiling” and got a long list of hits of empirical research that has been done that has demonstrated endemic racial profiling. Here’s the first one that came up:
http://economics.ucr.edu/seminars_colloquia/2006/political_economy_development/KateAntonovics4-10-2006.pdf
I’ve read most of those reports and the methodology is nearly always something along the lines of “since more African Americans are pulled over, racism is the problem.” They don’t ever acknowledge the fact that there are numerous other, equally plausible explanations for the disparity. That is part of the problem. Nobody questions the methods.They are happy with “begging the question.”
Racist!
Did you actually read the Justice Department’s Baltimore report? It’s fairly damning.
The mere fact that Lynch’em and Co. wasted tax dollars going to Ferguson & Baltimore, but not Dallas, where the shooter had Nation of Islam and Black Liberation Party connections, shows how backwards things have become. At the very least there should’ve been a major investigation to see if he really acted alone.
Doesn’t say anything about intent. Try again.
Conscious intent has nothing to do with it. A person who is subconsciously racist treats those of other races just as badly as someone with Badonicus/40 Acres overt racism. And in those cases it’s even harder to address since the person may not even be aware that he’s racist. The question is results, not intent.
I didn’t say “conscious”.
The question is not results. You said:
Motivation can be either conscious or sub-conscious. People often aren’t even aware of their own motivations, at least not completely. But your actions, and mine, are guided by our subconsciouis, and the results are the same as they would be if we were acting intentionally.
Suppose I run over your child with my car because I was thinking about something else rather than watching where I was driving. Well, I didn’t intend to, but somehow I think you probably wouldn’t care. Your child would be just as dead as if I had intended to.
Okay. And?
And you seem to be assuming that it only counts as “intent” if someone deliberately and consciously sets out to treat blacks badly because of their race. And just to be clear, I doubt that happens very much. What does happen is that people are socialized to be racist in subtle ways they don’t even appreciate or recognize, so that when a white police officer has an encounter with a black citizen, he treats that citizen differently than he would a white citizen, probably without even consciously being aware that he is doing that. It’s subconscious racism rather than conscious… Read more »
Krychek, do you not think it a bit arrogant on your part that you assume that you know what subconsciously motivates white police officers? Here I am, a white man who worked as a police officer, telling you repeatedly what the more accurate and plausible explanations of the disparity are (by and large, there is surely some isolated, sporadic racism that doesn’t even come close the the epidemic levels that are assumed by people like you) and you are saying that I must be wrong. There must be some subconscious racism at play. You are so determined that we are… Read more »
So unless I agree with you, I haven’t listened to you? I’ve listened to you, as evidenced by the fact that I’ve responded to the points you’ve made. I’ve even said some things that are supportive of your position. But you seem to be taking the “he who is not with me is against me” view that unless I agree completely, that I’m part of the problem and I’m not listening. I don’t have to wonder what motivates people because I grew up with the same socialization that you did. I understand the process, because I too went through it,… Read more »
Krychek, perhaps you are right and I over reacted. I just read through some of your responses, and you do at least listen. I apologize. I just got off work and I am functioning on about 3 hours sleep after a long night on company. I sat down at the computer waiting for my coffee to wear off so I could get a nap. That, apparently, was a mistake. Again, I apologize. I will try again later, after a little sleep.
Don’t worry about it; I sometimes over react too. It’s a highly emotional topic.
Krycheck, you haven’t successfully demonstrated that racism is significant enough of a problem that it needs to be addressed. There are much more pressing problems that need to be addressed and by singling out racism because it fits the current narrative, the real problems continue. You are a smart enough guy, but your ability to google stats and post links here don’t tell the story. I don’t doubt that you can continue to argue your case, but maybe you should take a few minutes and try to recognize that you aren’t sufficiently informed on all that is occurring because you… Read more »
“There are much more pressing problems that need to be addressed and by singling out racism because it fits the current narrative, the real problems continue.”
Well said. It’s true of Krycheck_2 and other SJW Lite posters on here, and true of others all over the Evangelical landscape.
What would you consider more pressing problems? I would say there are other problems too, but with Milwaukee burning I’d say this one is fairly pressing.
And yes, there are two sides to it. I’ve acknowledged that, and acknowledged that the police have a tough job. On the other hand, when a black man can be stopped 35 times in a year with no charges being brought any of those times, racism is certainly suspect.
Do you honestly think Milwaukee is burning because cops are racist?
The most pressing problem I see is that the authority of police has been undermined by race baiters and agitators, and the ignorance of the general public has facilitated it.
Yep.
http://gotnews.com/videos-watch-savages-burn-milwaukee-paul-ryans-win-milwaukeeuprising/
http://gotnews.com/breaking-milwaukee-man-shot-police-blood-gangbanger-cousin-calling-gallon-blood-every-cop-milwaukeeuprising-blacklivesmatter/
How do you see your position as being compatible with eternal vigilance being the price of liberty? Even if the police were all angels, a free society needs to watch those in authority like hawks, or it will not be a free society for long. It constantly amazes me that some conservatives (note I said “some”), who trust government in no other field of endeavor, nevertheless act as if the police are somehow a bright, shining exception to their general rule that government can’t be trusted.
I think Milwaukee is burning because people feel unfairly treated over generations of racism.
At what point in American history do you believe that Black people first were able to experience generally non-racist policing towards their communities on a national scale? At what point do you believe that segregation against Black communities ended?
Police have more oversight now than ever before, I don’t consider that a problem. Do you have any idea how many complaints come in each day against the officers? But you didn’t answer, do you have any reason to believe that acts of racism by the police are what motivated the Milwaukee riots? And since you acknowledge cops have a tough job, I assume you also acknowledge that it is a dangerous job. If so, what measures are appropriate to ensure officer’s safety in that dangerous environment? What are you willing to concede so that officers lives are not further… Read more »
I’m willing to take a wait and see approach until the evidence comes in, because as we both know, somethings the evidence takes us to unexpected places. Not having seen the evidence, my initial response is that I have trouble believing that that many people who aren’t criminals would be demonstrating and rioting if all that were happening is that the police are aggressively going after criminals. It looks more like a lot of pent-up anger over a lifetime of bad treatment to me.
That’s my initial hunch. Maybe the evidence will take us there; maybe it won’t.
Your interaction with Jim above did not display a wait and see attitude. You even indicated that you disagreed with his first hand experience as representative even though I didn’t see you provide evidence as grounds for your disagreement.
Providing public order and safety is more important than preventing discrimination.
We don’t need to choose. We can have both.
Officers view Black boys as “older” and “less innocent” than White boys the same age:
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2014/03/black-boys-older.aspx
North Carolina police had a lower threshold for pulling over Black/Latino drivers than White/Asian drivers:
https://5harad.com/papers/threshold-test.pdf
Police officers have shown implicit bias against Black/Latinos during shooting simulations:
http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2012/10/24/racial-%E2%80%98hierarchy-bias%E2%80%99-drives-decision-shoot-armed-unarmed-suspects-cu
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/5/8547473/police-racial-bias-research
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=2499&issue_id=102011
More on implicit, unacknowledged bias:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/between-the-lines/201204/studies-unconscious-bias-racism-not-always-racists
Another 20 papers on the subject:
http://www.fairimpartialpolicing.com/bias/
You started off talking about motivation. Now you’re moving the goalposts.
Motivation can be either conscious or subconscious. Are you always perfectly aware of everything that motivates you in a given case? But just because you’re not perfectly aware of your motivations doesn’t mean they’re not your motivations.
So, in other words, it’s impossible to have empirical data on this topic.
No. Once correlation has been shown, you then develop a list of possible explanations and then test each of them to see what can be ruled in and what can be ruled out. That’s how the link was found between smoking and cancer. First, a correlation was shown. Then other possible explanations were ruled out. And a failure to understand that procedure is what leads to 40 Acres reaching the superficial conclusion that because blacks commit crimes in higher percentages than whites, that therefore there is a relationship between black skin and criminality. He forgot to take the next step… Read more »
LOL
That’s the same mistake you are making between black skin and arrest statistics.
No, I then go on to the next step.
Krychek, I am not denying that racist cops exist. I am categorically denying that they exist in the sort of epidemic proportions that are claimed by movments like BLM and are apparently accepted as fact by many reformed theologians who refuse to question the false narrative perpetuated by many of the people to whom they are trying to minister. Also, if i were a young black man in one of the neighborhoods we are talking about, there are many, many things I would fear before fearing the police. Also, those police that pull people over for warrants… they help keep… Read more »
Also, those police that pull people over for warrants… they help keep the neighborhoods from being even more heavily plagued with violence. They help remove from the streets some of the individuals that should legitimately be feared. Look at how the violent crime rates in urban centers are skyrocketing right now. That is occurring because officers are no longer doing such proactive police work. Be careful what you wish for. Exactly. Not only are cops not pulling over young black men for no good reason, they should be pulling over FAR MORE young black men than they do right now.… Read more »
I completely believe what you’re saying, although there’s still clear evidence that racism often does play a factor.
But even without racism, do you see that the situation you’ve described is an absolutely horrid way to police an area and would lead to massive systemic racial issues?
Under this regime, the contributor called 40 Acres has had many comments deleted, but he has also had many comments reported to me which I leave alone.
You’ve been very fair, Doug. Thank you.
I am a white, middle aged, former law enforcement officer. I also studied at RTS Jackson for a couple of years. I truly believe that our country is in desperate need of an honest discussion on race, but as you well know, just trying to be honest and balanced often gets you either ignored or labeled as a “cracker.” Repeatedly, I have expressed concern to certain members of the Reformed community about the fact that much of the BLM activism that has drawn so much attention does so in the context of the interaction of law enforcement officers with the… Read more »
I am a white, middle aged, former law enforcement officer.
AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN?!?!
Jim, I empathize with what you’re going through. I myself have been accused of racism many, many times for asking similar questions as what you’ve asked. Christians today think they can play the race card, and that making sweeping generalizations about law enforcement officers is an acceptable means of combating this heresy of racism. It’s not.
The sad thing is, I truly want an honest and productive discussion on race relations. I think that much could be gained from such a discussion. But it is hard to find willing participants if it means actually listening to and entertaining the perspective of a white law enforcement officer. One of the things that people desperately need to understand is that shooting “an unarmed man,” does not instantly imply that such a shooting was not justified. Each year, numerous officers are killed with their own weapon because it was taken from them in a scuffle. When such scuffles occur,… Read more »
When such scuffles occur, the officer has not only the right to defend his life, but also the responsibility to ensure that his weapon does not fall into the hands of a potentially violent criminal, only to be used against a citizen at a later date. Not if he’s white and the perp is black, he doesn’t. White cops are evil. They go around gunning down innocent black men for no reason. That’s what more and more “conservative, Bible-believing” preachers tell us these days. SBC, PCA, OPC, etc. If he wants to live, the black perp has no choice but… Read more »
I have seen a few well-intentioned reformed theologians speaking far outside their area of expertise, seemingly without any real concern for consulting subject matter experts to help them shape and temper their positions when it comes to interactions between law enforcement officers and minority communities. I was hoping that, after the killing of the officers in Dallas, some of them would slow down a little bit and listen to both sides of the issue, realizing that suffering exists on both sides of the issue.
I have seen a few well-intentioned reformed theologians speaking far outside their area of expertise
No, you’ve seen a few reformed theologians speaking far outside their area of expertise.
People with good intentions don’t go around preaching that there’s an epidemic of evil white cops gunning down young black men for no reason.
People with evil intentions do that kind of thing.
I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think that they honestly want to reach out to African Americans and build bridges where walls have long existed. That is a good thing. I just don’t think that they realize that there are unintended consequences to doing so in a fashion that is, ultimately, irresponsible. Right now, violent crime rates are sky-rocketing in minority neighborhoods in large cities because police officers who used to want to do their job now fear being judged by the media and by people who, like these theologians, show no interest in… Read more »
I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think that they honestly want to reach out to African Americans and build bridges where walls have long existed. You’re naive, and sadly mistaken. They’re not well-intentioned. They’re not motivated by a love for blacks or faithfulness to God’s word. They’re motivated by a hatred of white people, the animating spirit of our age. If they really wanted to get rid of “the walls” between blacks and whites, they’d be demanding that blacks do something about their astronomical rates of crime, illegitimacy, and other dysfunctions, which are the… Read more »
Once again, I think that these men feel that for them to address these problems would only alienate the African American community further, so they leave that job to men like Thabiti Anyabwile, Bryan Lorrits, etc. I could be wrong, but at the end of the day, we cannot really know their motivation. That being the case, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt since they have spoken with wisdom and compassion to other matters. That said, I am not backing off my stance that they, too, are playing the “identity politics” game. One of the real… Read more »
I’m interested that you require so much proof to believe that bias could possibly be the cause for uneven policing of Black persons.
Yet you’ve immediately jumped to the conclusion that this ambiguous “perpetuating false narratives” is the cause of “violent crime rates sky-rocketing in minority communities”, even when other possible causes are obviously available.
I wonder – do you have actual proof that violent crime rates are generally “skyrocketing” in minority communities and that “perpetuating false narratives” is the reason why?
Perpetuating false narratives has consequences.
You think it’s bad now, brother?
Just wait.
Watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFd0sV3LhEM&feature=youtu.be
Then remind yourself that Jemar Tisby is a very big deal in the Reformed word – not only on the Reformed church circuit, but also at Reformed Theological Seminary, where he’s Special Assistant to the Chancellor, among other titles.
https://www.rts.edu/jackson/faculty/bio.aspx?id=693
Watch the video. Note how many Richmond Presbyterian Churches are sponsoring Tisby’s talk. Look them up, and note how many are PCA.
We’re just getting warmed up, brother.
You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.
I’ve enjoyed your posts and appreciate your ability to voice a perspective that is rarely heard, or I should say rarely voiced. Why do you think the officers aren’t more vocal about being properly represented and understood? FOP, NLEA, NAP, all of these organizations that represent the officers have been silent for the last decade as the officers and the departments have been under attack. The DOJ has waged a full out war on local departments and policies but very few have been aware of it. I agree with others who have criticized the Christian response, but the public in… Read more »
I’m not a spokesman for any of those groups, so my thoughts on this are mere conjecture. That said, I think that all of those groups realize the challenge they are facing. In an age where pay and benefits for police/fire/EMS are being cut across the nation, they see their primary purpose to be raising public support for emergency responders in an effort to facilitate political change that will preserve some of what is being lost. Remember, when you couple the loss of pay and benefits with the current anti-police sentiment, retention of officers is a HUGE issue. In Memphis… Read more »
I have lived through two dangerous situations: the riots following the Rodney King acquittal and the looting following the Northridge Earthquake. Nobody, and I mean nobody, was saying that we didn’t want the cops doing their jobs in our neighborhood. People who live in safe, gated communities don’t understand how those of us–of any race–who live in high crime areas rely on law enforcement every day.
I was nowhere near L.A. when the riots occurred, but my favorite memory is video footage of the Korean store owners walking on their roofs with rifles.. They were supposed to be a major target of the looting, but it didn’t quite work out that way.
I was on the first team rescuing people from rooftops in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. I have seen what society becomes when the restraints of law enforcement are all but removed. It’s not pretty.
This article is sad to read… I live in the 2nd bluest place in the West (Western WA) which has its own cornucopia of dysfunction, but it is truly rare to hear about white racists around this neck of the woods.
Doug, give one quote in which I’ve said something with “PC malice” that you’ve had to delete in regards to the topic of race on this blog. It will be as hard to find as the point you were attempting to make in the last post written about your “exchange” with Thabiti. Meanwhile, Doug continues to stand behind the idea that it was possible to be on firm Biblical ground to have been an owner of slaves in the context of man-stealing and racist evil in this country. Thabiti destroyed Doug’s thesis, that to stand on the Bible as God’s… Read more »
Although, it’s fairly obvious when reading the fruit of Doug’s labor via the comments section of this blog, the sort of fruit being produced is not edible.
Don’t despair. Krycheck usually posts for a while, and then disappears.
It gets better.
Ryan Sather wrote: Meanwhile, Doug continues to stand behind the idea that it was possible to be on firm Biblical ground to have been an owner of slaves in the context of man-stealing and racist evil in this country. Estimates are that about 20% of free blacks held slaves themselves. (This is a higher percentage than the rate of whites who owned slaves in the South.) This situation could be cited as an example of high hypocrisy, but some have suggested that free blacks owned these slaves in order to provide a refuge and an income for them, to prevent… Read more »
Thabiti argues that Pauls desire for Onesimus to be freed supports immediate abolition. But Paul does not say anything to Philemon about his other slaves, which the abolitionists (and Ryan Sather) would demand be freed as well.
“Although, it’s fairly obvious when reading the fruit of Doug’s labor via the comments section of this blog, the sort of fruit being produced is not edible.”
The comtents of the comment section is not the fruit of the thing being commented on.
A contrast in comments, by christopher casey. DW:”The comments I delete are usually the ones which have descended to personal invective or other forms of outrageous insult….Whenever I delete a comment, whether it is from 40 Acres or Ryan Sather, it is usually for the same reason.” 40:”You’ve been very fair, Doug. Thank you.” RS:”Doug, give one quote in which I’ve said something with “PC malice” that you’ve had to delete in regards to the topic of race on this blog. It will be as hard to find as the point you were attempting to make in the last post… Read more »
I can’t complain. Doug hasn’t deleted all that many comments of mine, and when he has, it was almost always justified. He has probably deleted about 10 out of what has to be over a thousand. I can only think of two I would quibble with. One was a post written in Ebonics. The other was a link to a TGC video featuring an ex-lesbian talking about how gays and lesbians have a real sense of community, and put the church to shame with the way they love and care for each other. My post was a link to the… Read more »
I don’t know of any comments Doug has deleted. Thus, my question, show me a malicious PC quote on race you’ve deleted of mine. I could care less if he does delete comment. It wouldn’t be because it is PC (it’d simply be to repress the truth).
Ryan, sure. Despite abundant evident to the contrary, you have accused me of being a racist.
I don’t think you believe yourself racist. But holding to a belief that one can stand on firm biblical ground and own slaves in the context of American slavery is racist. Thabiti clearly showed your error in his post at TGC and you continue to refuse to repent. Those lines of thought are racist. You may not like to be called racist, but holding to those beliefs is racist behavior. (nor were those comments ever deleted by you)
Ryan, had you been unjustly accusing someone else in the comments of racism, I would have deleted them. As it was directed at me, I didn’t. But that doesn’t keep it from being slander.
You have said I am a racist, and that it is a sin that I refuse to repent of. If that is wrong, you have wronged me. If it is right, you should have no trouble with the next question. What is racism, and where does the Bible identify it as sin?
Rut-roh!
What is racism, and where does the Bible identify it as sin?
ashv’s meme magic
Doug, if it is not too much to ask, I would appreciate it if you would weigh in on comments I made below about the need to include the perspective of law enforcement officers in this conversation on race, especially since much of the discussion on the matter seems to take place in the context of interactions between law enforcement officers and ethnic minorities. If you do think that such an approach would be helpful, I would love to get your advice on how to facilitate the inclusion of Christian law enforcement officers into the discussion, particularly those discussions that… Read more »
The whole situation is bad for both police and the people in their jurisdiction; Police aren’t allowed to effectively act to suppress crime, and are subject to public attacks (verbal and physical). This encourages an us-vs-them mindset where police protect their own regardless of wrongdoing, which leads to further lack of trust from the community, and attracts even more of a bad element to police work.
I doubt a solution can be found until we have rulers that are willing to put public safety and order ahead of freedom and identity politics.
Do you believe Genesis 1:26 to be an accurate description of all people being created in the image of God? To write that one could follow Jesus and own slaves based upon their “racial inferiority” knowing they were stolen people, is to support a faulty worldview that does not believe in the imago dei of every human being. You make all sorts of “qualifications” in your statements, but at the end of the day you have yet to withdraw your support that one could follow Jesus and own slaves in our country. And, to own slaves in this country, was… Read more »
Sather wrote: … at the end of the day you have yet to withdraw your support that one could follow Jesus and own slaves in our country. And, to own slaves in this country, was to believe, whether expressed or otherwise, that African Americans were less than human. I’ve asked Sather the question below, in another comment, but have yet to see a reply. Is Sather aware that about 20% of free blacks owned slaves? This is a higher rate of slave ownership than among whites in the South. What explains this? Is it just black hypocrisy? Some suggest that… Read more »
1) Yes, I am aware. You probably won’t like it, but this is a fairly helpful article on the topic here: http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2013/03/black_slave_owners_did_they_exist/ 2) I would say hypocrisy, yes. What would you call it? 3) Absolutely a faulty understanding of the imago dei. 4) Of course you can follow Jesus with besetting sin and blind spots. I’ve never argued it impossible to follow Jesus and have been engaged in this evil. I am guessing you and I are both involved in things that we have blind spots to as well. I am thankful the blood of Jesus covers ALL our sin.… Read more »
BTW, I don’t think your 20% number is accurate…it’s a bit low: “How Many Slaves Did Blacks Own? So what do the actual numbers of black slave owners and their slaves tell us? In 1830, the year most carefully studied by Carter G. Woodson, about 13.7 percent (319,599) of the black population was free. Of these, 3,776 free Negroes owned 12,907 slaves, out of a total of 2,009,043 slaves owned in the entire United States, so the numbers of slaves owned by black people over all was quite small by comparison with the number owned by white people. In his… Read more »
Katecho pretty well destroyed this comment of yours… there was a lot more at work throughout the history of slavery than just pure racial animus. When you simplify things like this, you look kinda silly. God is quite clear in Scripture that one could follow Christ and own slaves.
God is anything but clear, in the American historical context, that one can own slaves. In fact, it’s impossible to argue being a follower of Jesus is consistent with owning an American slave,. The American system of man-stealing and belief about the inferiority of another human created in the image of God due to skin color absolutely forbids one to say “ok, you are on firm biblical ground”. But that is what Wilson has done. And that is wrong, racist/idolatrous, and should be repented of.
You can’t possibly be this ignorant… many God-fearing men owned slaves without believing that the slaves were less human. We have their writing as proof. Many Christ-following men grew up in a society and context where owning slaves was intrinsic to the economy and not something one could easily escape from. Slaves were tied to mortgages, as an example. Say you were born in 1835 to slave-owning parents… you grew to be a man and recognized that God’s ideal was freedom for these slaves but also recognized that freeing your own slaves put both them and those dependent on you… Read more »
Please, do show these righteous slave owner writings. To be sure, the economic cost of following Jesus then would have been difficult. However, an excuse of economic consequences as reason won’t cut mustard. Ask the rich young ruler…
As expected, you went for the bait and quickly went to the rich young ruler as a proof text… sadly, that’s not a good example, cause I wasn’t referring to one’s own financial hardship, but the hardship of one’s dependents, including those slaves you supposedly care so much about. What exactly do you think were the economic realities for freed slaves in the deep South? Also quite important is the fact that many slaveowners didn’t actually own their slaves, the bank did (hence my reference to mortgages). As for the writings of the righteous slaveowners, I won’t do your homework… Read more »
No proof text, just the words of my Master.
Yes, ripped of context and applied lazily to a completely different situation.
Not at all.
Hillary Clinton thinks we should protect innocent lives and participates in the ghoulish industry of abortion. Words not accompanied by works are…(you can fill in that blank)
It must be nice to live in such a self-righteous bubble that the complex choices and actions of fellow believers from 150 years ago are so crystal-clear in their moral repugnance.
I wish more believers eschewed such condemnatory tendencies in their “chronological snobbery,” as CS Lewis would put it, but alas, #trailbyhashtag wins out more often than not.
I don’t claim to live in a self righteous bubble. I think, the benefit of history, allows us to look back and see blind spots in our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not question whether the grace of Jesus could cover the errors of their faulty thinking and actions as it pertains to the participation (and in many cases strong support from) of followers of Christ individually and the church as an institution in the south. My issue is, has been, and will continue to be…why on earth would a pastor who claims to care about the… Read more »
The disconnect lies in the fact that you can’t separate Biblical, God-fearing slave-owning from secular, race-hating slave-owning. But God clearly does throughout Scripture… Roman slavery was no walk in the park and had many similarities to the American version, except it never became based on the color of skin. But there was plenty of man-stealing. Even American slavery started out across all skin tones, and over time became dominated by Africans. However, even within that, many God-fearing, good Christians owned slaves and treated them the way God demanded in Scripture, and many eventually freed their slaves, something encouraged but not… Read more »
I think the disconnect lies in the fact that you think it was possible to separate the two in the historical context of America. When the church was used as a tool to keep this heinous system alive and operating. To be a slave owner, in America, during this time, was to (willingly or by default) be part of the race-hating, slave-owning system of the day. Was this a sin, and does/did it need to be renounced, by all means. But that doesn’t mean it was impossible to be a follower of Jesus and engaged in this system. I am… Read more »
“What I don’t understand, is why anyone would want to attempt to say that a follower of Christ could have participated in this system in a way that would be God glorifying?”
If it was possible to be God glorifying while participating in roman/greek slavery systems, why would it be impossible in the american system?
By the way, I think the ERLC has done a great job of giving a thorough overview to the sin of racism if you are interested in learning more. It does surprise me you would have to ask the question, “What is racism, and where does the Bible identify it as sin?” It says something I think about where your heart is in this discussion.
Link: http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/the-sin-of-racism
Also, the book Bloodlines by John Piper is another helpful read if you are interested in exploring more the depths of the sin of racism.
When you point to the Southern Baptist Convention and John Piper as your authority instead of Scripture as requested, are we to understand that they have equal authority in your eyes or that you cannot answer the question directly from Scripture?
ummm…Genesis 1:26 isn’t good enough for you?
It must be the translation i use.
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, IN FOUR RACES, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky.
The problem with adhering to the man made concept of races is that if God made man in His image, ONE IMAGE, you are calling him a liar by saying he made four images, with various sub-classes. It’s a problem.
Nobody serious thinks the various nations, races, ethnicities, tribes, etc. of humanity don’t have a common ancestor. We are all undoubtedly descendants of Adam, but this hardly addresses the point at hand.
ashv, I respectfully disagree. I am not arguing that there are no physical characteristic differences among peoples. They clearly exist. I’m arguing against using a man made definition of how people are segmented based on any other distinction than what our Father and Christ defined for us. Christ didn’t divide by physical characteristics. He distinguished only between those who are His and those who aren’t. Thus, within the church we should do the same. I’ll say it again, everyone within the body of Christ is equal in terms of salvation. When we allow the pagan culture to determine our vocabulary… Read more »
Wisdom requires dealing with people as they are, not as we imagine them to be. The doctrine of equality did not come from Scripture. Do you not believe that there are those in the kingdom of Heaven with greater or lesser gifts? That there are those who will receive greater or lesser rewards? There is unity and brotherhood in God’s kingdom, but not equality.
ashv wrote: There is unity and brotherhood in God’s kingdom, but not equality. Whereas JL had written: I am not arguing that there are no physical characteristic differences among peoples. They clearly exist. … I’ll say it again, everyone within the body of Christ is equal in terms of salvation. JL is observing that our primary identity is Christ, above our ethnic identity. I’ve gone around with ashv before on this subject, and my conclusion was that ashv still identifies with his clan and ethnicity above a shared identity in Christ. His fundamental identity is genetic rather than spiritual and… Read more »
Yes, the gospel reorders our loyalties. But the spirit of the age preaches that we should discard them. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for trusting in their ancestry for salvation — but He also rebuked them for using spiritual-sounding excuses to not honour their parents. My parents and grandparents were faithful, gifted, and able people. I have been greatly blessed by my inheritance from them, spiritually, mentally, and physically. I don’t believe this means I need Jesus any less or that it reduces my obligation to love and serve my fellow members of the Kingdom — rather, it increases it, since… Read more »
Thank you, ashv. That is an interesting perspective that I haven’t ever heard before.
What you are calling differences of equality, I would call differences in responsibility/authority. I don’t equate those two.
I’ll have to study Luke 12:48 more. Thank you very much!
What do you mean by equality then?
When speaking of equality, we have to define our perspective. Pagans use the word a lot, but I don’t think they actually believe in it. For myself, when I think of equality, I think of it in terms of who claims the glory. If I were the best chef in the world (Dreamer, nothing but a dreamer!) who would get the glory for that? What part could I claim? If I worked my tail off for 20 years and was finally given the grand poohbah award for best chef in the universe, could i claim any part of it? Who… Read more »
ashv wrote: I repeat: unity and brotherhood are the fruit of the gospel. Equality is not. As an advocate of enforced racial segregation, does ashv really think segregation is an indication of unity and brotherhood in Christ? How so? How is it not merely placing one’s ethnic identity above one’s identity in Christ? Is a self-proclaimed historical white supremacy a fruit of the Gospel? How does trumpeting one’s ethnic accomplishments in relation to other ethnicities promote unity in Christ? Do we praise ourselves in comparison to one another, or with regard to God’s standard? Do we forget from Whom our… Read more »
Nice post, and thanks for making what I tried to say so much clearer!
I understand the paradox. If we are all equal in Christ, then why are some rewarded more in Heaven? It was this type of question that really led me to investigate the sovereignty of God. AW Pink’s book called “Sovereignty of God” really brought things into perspective. That was the beginning of my own personal reformation.
ashv wrote: Do you not believe that there are those in the kingdom of Heaven with greater or lesser gifts? That there are those who will receive greater or lesser rewards? Of course there is a variety of gifts, and of talents, and of rewards, but does ashv seriously suppose that these correlate exclusively with race and clan? God seems to enjoy poking holes in that narrative through people like Rahab, and the Queen of Sheba, and Caleb, and Uriah, and Ruth, and the Roman centurion, and the Ethiopian eunuch, and Nicodemus, and the good Samaritan, and the woman at… Read more »
Good grief, no. Are you really that simple-minded?
After I read my last post to my husband, I asked him how long it would be before I was called naive. He won. :) Wisdom is recognizing where people are and leading them effectively to the truth. Wisdom is not arguing with people as though their wrongheaded fundamental concepts are valid. If anything, we should be answering them with their own folly. To the Christian who believes in the validity of race: So you’re saying that someone with this size nose, this size lips and this size ears are less or more in the eyes of God? If it… Read more »
exactly…and racism adheres to the false narrative that instead of ONE Image there are some Images that aren’t fully created in God’s image…because of skin color….
When you can find someone that actually thinks that, let us know.
thinks that people are …say worth 3/5 of a person…because of their “race”? goodnight, this whole blog is a discussion on that reality and the crazy racist comments in his own blog
Do you know the reason for the 3/5’s rule?
This was enacted to not allow slave owners to get credit for people in which they treated as property. This was done to not give the South more power than the North thought they should have. Believe me no one has innocent hands in our country as it relates to this mess.
Hilarious. You’re talking about the Three-Fifths Compromise? Do you even know who was on which side of this compromise? The slaveowners wanted slaves to be counted equally with free persons.
(This is the real Ryan Sather, right? Not one of Wesley’s sock puppet accounts?)
Are you sincerely accusing Pastor Wilson of believing that anyone is worth 3/5 of a person?
Only in their capacity to comment on blogs!
Hey, now!
No, I said no such thing.
Thinks in racist ways? I think Doug already have plenty of examples of sinful, racist attitudes and actions in this blog post. You don’t need my help.
LOL you’re such a mess.
Yes, this is true, however you can’t have racism without race, which I don’t see in Scripture. Do you?
You don’t read about methamphetamines in the Bible either but that doesn’t mean Biblical principles don’t tell us using something like that is sin
Of course, methamphetamines are in Scripture. They are a member of the category pharmakeia (Strong’s 5331). ;)
I am not arguing from a position of silence. I am saying that God has divided people in different ways, but He has never done so based on physical or genetic traits.
God hasn’t, but that doesn’t mean humans haven’t done so in sinful ways.
Right!
So to clarify you are trying to make the argument that racism is not actually a sin because race is not a Biblical construct?
No, I’m making the argument that you can’t have racism without race.
Can you have transgender issues even if transgender issues don’t really exist?
We agree that God hasn’t divided humanity based on physical or genetic traits and that the concept of race is man made. Therefore if we, as Christians, declare that there are races, we lift our authority above God’s by declaring a category that He never intended. It is the same with transgenders. Man has created a category that God never intended. To declare there are transgenders is to say man and not God is the authority on gender. If I thought I was a parrot and broke my nose trying to crack open a nut, would you say I had… Read more »
But, the truth is, visual distinctives (beauty, strength, skin color, height, hair color, etc…) do create stereotypes. Man creates all sorts of categories God never intended. That’s a consequence of sin. But it is intellectually dishonest to say because race isn’t created by God, the man-made category of race has not had incredibly sinful and disastrous consequences. Consequences one could rightly term racist.
I think now we are down to it!
Why are we giving nonbelievers the authority to create categories that God never intended?
We sin when we do this, because we are acknowledging and validating their authority over God. In other words, we are participating in their idolatry of humanism.
To sum up:
I think you are saying that man made categories create sins such as racism. I am saying that idolatry is the real sin, and we Christians need to repent of participating in it.
So, you’re saying if I changed my language to say: ” your idolatrous perspective on how a follower of Jesus could stand on firm biblical ground by owning a slave in the historical American context is wrong.”
I’m comfortable saying that as well.
Good morning, Ryan Sather. This is another topic altogether. It’s like this. (bad analogy alert!) A man commits murder. When he is arrested, he lies to the police about the circumstances surrounding the murder. The police are going to try to prove the greater crime of murder. They aren’t going to prosecute him for lying about the murder. Similarly, if you’re going to take the role of ha satan, you would be better off accusing Pastor Doug of being an idolater for believing in race, as this is the greater sin in your list. Your other accusation is much too… Read more »
Thanks for proving my point.
You have the advantage. What was your point?
God has given man authority over the natural world, to study and organise its features — as seen in Adam naming the animals. “Mammal”, “German”, “seagull”, and “farmer” are all man-made categories too. Are these things sinful to notice and describe as well? If not, what’s the difference?
Good morning, ashv. Now I’m having to dig into my memory banks on biology and research a bit on the net. I think this information is accurate, but I’m sure it’s quite a bit more complex than I’m presenting it. When biologists and anthropologists look at specimen in both the animal and plant kingdom, they break it down into what’s called a taxonomic rank. It’s the same for everything they look at whether is seagulls, ferns, snakes or fish. At it’s simplest level, that rank consists of these: Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus and Species. Sometimes there are… Read more »
“We can see this as truth because the definition of race arose as a
rational for man’s actions, not as a description of God’s natural order.”
People look different and are different. To say that race is only invented as a pretext for enslaving others is just wrong. On what basis can you make that statement?
I’m not going to go into detail here, as it would require some time to find quotes from scientists and historians that might be convincing to you. You can convince yourself of this much more easily, I think, by researching on the internet. Also, if the stack of dishes in the sink get any higher, I’m going to have to glue them together, shine a spotlight on them, and try to convince my husband it’s art. :) In brief, my understanding comes from Scripture. Look at the fruit of “race”. I don’t need much more than that to know it… Read more »
I’m not making a scientific argument. I am out of my league there. I do believe in the Genesis account, most assuredly. All I am saying is that people do indeed look different and are different and it is not wrong to acknowledge that. The Bible does differentiate between peoples and nations. It doesn’t just acknowledge different languages and different political systems, but different peoples.
Thank you, Jon. (dishes are done!) I do indeed recognize that there are physical differences among human beings around the globe. There are physical and genetic differences in the same species of birds around the globe too. My argument is that man has produced the false category of race for humanity only and that the false category sprang from evolution and is itself a form of idolatrous behavior. I was wrong to try to step into the scientific field, as my understanding there is limited and also it’s unnecessary. Thanks for that. Edited to add, that from my understanding, in… Read more »
Hi Jon, I am also out of my league. I’m not arguing that people don’t look different. I’m arguing that we are creating false categories that are not consistent with Scripture. My understanding is that the nations were not aligned along physical or genetic traits but around the language they spoke and the god or gods they worshiped, which dictated their culture or ethnos. . If God didn’t group people together according to physical or genetic traits, then why do we give it credence as Christians? Especially when its main purpose is to create social hierarchies, and rational for treating… Read more »
“My understanding is that the nations were not aligned along physical or genetic traits but around the language they spoke and the god or gods they worshiped, which dictated their culture or ethnos.”
Once aligned the physical and genetic traits would align also, so I don’t think race is a false categorie, just not a primary one.
Yes, I agree, if they existed in isolation. However enslavement of people groups constantly throughout the world has muddied the waters significantly, especially between light skinned and dark skinned peoples.
I think you make a valid point. Physical and genetic traits follow culture, which is quite different than saying it is independent of culture.
Categories don’t have to be exact to be useful. Race is just a way to categorise ancestry — of course many people have multiple racial backgrounds. I’m certain some anthropologists do reject the notion of race; smart people are often capable of convincing themselves that obvious things aren’t true. Anyway, physical anthropologists can identify race from bone structure, and biologists can accurately classify people by race by looking at DNA. We do the same thing with animals, except the term “breed” is more often used than “race”; the different physical and behavioural characteristics of domesticated animals are strongly influenced by… Read more »
ashv, thank you for sticking with it. I have gotten myself into a bit of a sticky wicket, haven’t I? Jon’s response above got me back on track. I had inadvertently moved the discussion from Scripture to science, and that was my mistake. Not only because my scientific knowledge is poor, but because it’s changing world views which I don’t want to do. I think that we agree that there are different characteristics among peoples depending on how they have adapted to the region of the world they are in. That’s not my argument. My argument is that God has… Read more »
Nations are extended families, and you see that in the Biblical names for some of them – the Israelites were descendants of Israel (Jacob), the Edomites were descendants of Esau, the Amalekites were descendants of Amalek, etc. Races are groups of related nations. I didn’t say anything about placing people above or below anything. Different people groups have different abilities, so naturally some will excel at one pursuit and some at others. When people from different backgrounds live close to each other, there are really only two stable states possible: boundaries between the groups’ territories that are strongly enforced by… Read more »
HI ashv.
Your argument for extended families being the basis for races falls down when we realize we all descended from one man and one woman. Where does the extended family begin? At Abraham? At Moses? At Esther? It’s completely arbitrary. God says he divided the nations in Deuteronomy 32. It says that he set them up according to the number in his heavenly court. He didn’t divide by physical or genetic traits.
To illustrate the fallacy of race, let me ask a simple question. What race is President Obama?
Mr Obama is mixed race, with a white American mother and a black Kenyan father.
Can you tell exactly where clouds begin and end? Do clouds exist? As I said, categories do not have to be completely precise to be useful.
Yet, the scientists who do recognize race only recognize four races at the moment, all based on physical and genetic traits. So, which of those four does he fall under? At what point does this manmade idea of race stop being useful? Who decides when it’s still okay for him to apply for scholarships or get a job over someone else? Who decides when it’s his black genes that make him a good dancer or his white genes that make him smart? It is man alone. God is not even considered, and that’s the problem. Humanism, evolution and race have… Read more »
That isn’t how genetics works. When looking at a group of related people, you can come up with statistics about the distribution of their characteristics, and predict the likelihood of any particular member of the group being a certain height, having a certain running speed, being susceptible to certain diseases, having a certain IQ, etc etc. But it’s just that, likelihood. There are short Dutchmen and tall Vietnamese, just not very many of them. People with multiple ethnic backgrounds are likely to have traits somewhere in between the averages for those ethnic groups. So, an understanding of race and ethnicity… Read more »
I am saying that idolatry is the real sin
Reformed Hermeneutics 101, Lesson 1:
If you hate something because the NYT and SPLC have made it cool to hate something, but you can’t find anything in the Bible condemning it, just call it “idolatry.”
I haven’t taken the lessons yet. I only went to my first Reformed service a week ago. Thanks for helping me get a head start! ????
I have to admit my definition of idolatry is pretty simple. If your reason for doing anything isn’t found in the authority of God, then it’s idolatry.
I’ll bet your definition is much more splendiferous. Please, do tell.
What do you think is being treated as an idol in this instance?
In this instance man is dividing humanity according to his own authority, thus raising his authority over God’s. I still maintain it is an arbitrary and false division, and not according to Scripture.
Is “American” an idolatrous division? Is “Yankee”? Is “redneck”? :-)
Why do you think divisions are being made instead of noticed?
American, Yankee and Redneck do not arbitrarily diviide people groups by spurious criteria. They are national and cultural descriptors. Humanism uses race in some combination of biology, genetics and culture, whichever is convenient for its purpose. Example: the calls that Trump made racist remarks against the Mexicano judge. What?. According to science, if races do exist, then Mexicans are Caucasian. Humanism doesn’t care about definitions because they can change them at will. Science, the great authority of humanism, has been unable for the last 250 years to decide how many if any races exist. Right now the popular scientific view… Read more »
I don’t see how humanism is relevant to the discussion. Science is a Christian endeavour based on a belief that God has created a comprehensible, meaningful world that He created us with the ability to examine and understand. “Racist” is purely a rhetorical term that doesn’t have any objective meaning — it is purely an insult, not a description. So it needn’t have anything to do with a scientific definition of race. Trump was attacked for merely noticing the judge was of Mexican heritage. Our allegiance to Christ comes before our loyalties to family or nation. But it doesn’t destroy… Read more »
That’s an important difference in our outlook. I believe that science was long ago co-opted to say what the humanistic government, corporations, etc want it to say. Global warming is an example. Denial of any data or theory that disagrees with evolution is another. Science today is agenda driven. I was in grad school many moons ago, and I saw how funding drove science. Look at the Ebola scare a few years back. Suddenly there were pharma companies that just needed a few million to finish their vaccine. As soon as the gov funding died up, so did the ebola… Read more »
Well, organised science today is thoroughly corrupted by its association with political power, so I completely agree with you.
Some words just convey emotion rather than factual content. Do you think “egghead” is used to describe the shape of peoples’ craniums or “jackass” means they’re literally a specimen of Equus asinus? “Racist” is in that category.
To bring all this down to a comprehensible example: if some black Americans want to start a bible study or have a party that only black Americans are invited to, is this sinful? Why or why not?
Racist is just a slur to you, but for my “black” friends, racists, people who hate them because of their skin color, are a reality. Whose definition is correct? When you say black, do you mean they are 100% racially Negroid, of mixed race but predominantly Negroid, people who just look Negroid according to your definition or members of a black culture? I’m not being snarky. My point is the word black, with regards to race, has no steady meaning. Regardless, if it’s a Bible study, yes, it’s wrong. Just as it’s wrong for a church to exclude anyone who… Read more »
Christ told us how to divide ourselves, and it wasn’t by physical traits.
Exactly. Jesus never preached about the need for separate restrooms or showers for men and women, let alone commanded us to have them.
We dare not establish divisions where He hasn’t.
That would be idolatry, right?
You are a worthy fisherman, but you will go hungry with me.
You know the difference.
Mmm. I hope your church doesn’t have a women’s Bible study then, if that’s how you look at it.
Come on, ashv.
Did God create genders with appropriate roles for each? Yes.
Did God create races with appropriate roles for each? No.
Hilarious.
I only went to my first Reformed service a week ago.
You’re a quick study!
Dude! Nice photo. Which Kardashian is it?
LOL
Good one!
That’s a poor argument. That’s like saying you can’t have envy without the other person really having stuff that should be yours. Or you can’t have idolatry, because idols are nothing.
If you have a sinful attitude based on a false premise, you still have that sinful attitude.
No, I’m saying we’re giving the wrong name to that particular sin. The sin is unjustifiable hatred. There’s no such thing as race.
For someone who supposedly hates racism, you sure seem to struggle to define it. Doug’s post from two months ago really did a fantastic job of defining it. Racism isn’t sin in and of itself… it is sin because of the presuppositions it requires: vainglory and/or malice.
I’ve had no trouble defining it as an assault on the imago dei, rooted in Genesis 1:26.
Point out something Pastor Wilson or anyone else here has said that suggests they do not believe all men are made in the image of God.
Pastor Wilson is on the record, in a book, saying that a follower of Jesus stood on firm biblical ground to own a slave in the American system of slavery. That statement is support for a system rooted in the false belief that some people created in the image of God, are not.
You skipped the part where you explain how owning a slave means one is not treating him as made in the image of God.
Owning a slave in America, was to own property, defined by law as not human. Participation in this evil was participation in making some who God created in his image as though they were not.
Blatantly false.
If that were true, why did states provide for jury trials of slaves accused of crimes?
You are denying this? Then you deny reality.
For once, Ryan, you might actually try an honest argument. He asked a basic question: if, as you contend, slaves were not viewed as human, then why were they accorded human rights?
Les than fully human, different than treated as a dog. Do you really believe slaves were given sane dignity, protection and opportunities under the law as free men?
Georgia’s state law,for example, stated that slaves accused of crimes “shall be arrested and tried”. That’s not how livestock or farm equipment gets treated in law.
https://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/slavelaw.htm#25
What law are you talking about that stated the slaves were “not human”?
To try and act like those who owned slaves treated them as if they were created in the image of God, is to make the argument planned parenthood really cares about women. Give me a break. Here is an excerpt from a 30 page paper that describes the blurry lines of American slavery. The one thing that is certain, slaves were not treated as image bearers of the living God. And in many respects were seen primarily as property. “Confederate Vice President, Alexander Stephens, condemned the North for accepting the idea of racial equality. But Stevens noted: Our new government… Read more »
Since you cannot produce an example of a law stating that slaves were “not human”, then I believe you’re just lying at this point.
Nothing in your quote or the linked article supports your claim that the legal status of slavery resulted in people being treated as if not created in the image of God.
In the 1839 North Carolina case State v. Hoover, a master was sentenced to death for murdering his slave.
Is this the action of a legal system that asserts that slaves are not made in the image of God?
And yet as recently as the 1960s and probably even later, it was quite possible for someone in Mississippi to kill a Black person, or even someone helping Black people, in cold blood with the full knowledge of local and state authorities both and yet never, ever have to answer for it. Most of the cases I’m personally aware of on that account are from the 1960s, because of hte particular nature of the conflict at that time, but of course there were ones before and since. And those cases remained unprosecuted in the 1970s…1980s….1990s… And those are just the… Read more »
So… you’re saying America has an imperfect justice system? I could believe that.
I’m not talking about an “imperfect legal system”. I’m saying that in the living memory of quite a few people in this discussion, it was okay to murder Black people in cold blood with the full knowledge of practically the entire state and still not have ANYONE in authority be willing to call you to rights for it. When the entire state knows it was murder, and the entire state refuses to prosecute you for it, and they continue to refuse to prosecute you even as recently as the 1990s despite still being fully conscious of the murder that entire… Read more »
I don’t believe in “human rights” in general so I’m not interested in that particular argument.
I am saying that there’s a difference between a system that recognises an action as a crime but fails to punish it consistently and a system that denies something can be a crime at all. So far as I can tell Sather has been alleging the latter, and I am pointing out counterexamples.
I don’t know what you mean by you “don’t believe” in human rights. Are you saying that God’s standards for justice don’t apply to all people? That when the prophets decry that the rights of the people are not being held up and that the nation will be judged as a result….what is that but not an affirmation of human rights? I don’t think that there’s as clear a black-and-white distinction between the two system categories as you are claiming, and if there is, I’m not clear the South falls on the side that you think it does. Is driving… Read more »
“I don’t know what you mean by you “don’t believe” in human rights.”
When the U.N. declares internet access is a basic human right the concept is somewhat dubious.
That’s a logically worthless argument.
If someone claims something stupid is a Biblical value, does that make the concept of Biblical values dubious?
It would make their concept of biblical values dubious, which was my point. You can argue for human rights rights from a christian perspective but you’ll have to distinguish between yourself and those argueing from a humanist perspective.
It seems really unnecessary to jump through those hoops when this was my initial claim: “When the entire state knows it was murder, and the entire state refuses to prosecute you for it, and they continue to refuse to prosecute you even as recently as the 1990s despite still being fully conscious of the murder that entire time…that goes far beyond some mere “imperfect justice system”. That legitimately brings in the question of whether they really consider you to have the rights of a full human.” That was the first place the words “rights” or “human” were brought into the… Read more »
Fair enough, although I have had the human rights discussion regarding abortion as well.
I mean that “human rights” is a concept rooted in humanism and rebellion against God and discussions of Christian justice are better off without it.
I agree that treatment of slaves was unjust in many cases; I am merely arguing that this was, even at the time, treated as a departure from Christian duty. Slaves were regarded as men, not animals or furniture.
In Mississippi, in the 1821 case of State v. Isaac Jones, a free man was convicted for the murder of a slave.
“To try and act like those who owned slaves treated them as if they were created in the image of God, is to make the argument planned parenthood really cares about the unborn. Give me a break.”
Fixed that for ya.
Then you have to call Paul a racist for not demanding the abolition of slavery. If you want to be consistant that is.
Not true. Read Thabiti’s masterful work on this when he wrote back and forth with Doug on the issue.
Thabiti isn’t being inconsistant, thou art.
Christopher, my interactions with you are as helpful as interacting with a tree stump…I’m thankful to see you enjoy “minioning” for Doug…but until you get a helpful argument to actually discuss…it’s honestly not worth my time. Have a great day…
“Christopher, my interactions with you are as helpful as interacting with a tree stump”
That’s because you only post about one topic, quote other peoples arguments instead of making them, and refuse to acknowledge any position but your own.
“but until you get a helpful argument to actually discuss”
So what paul said about slaves and masters is not helpful?
Do you think that St. Paul regarded Onesimus as less than human?
Did he own slaves in America?
Are you being obtuse on purpose or does it come naturally? The issue–let me spell it out clearly–under discussion is whether a slave holder invariably regards his slave as subhuman. Or, are you arguing that slavery was a negation of the imago dei in the American South but not in the Roman Empire?
Alternatively, we could skip this argument and save some time by moving to your real issue, which is: Bad Doug! Bad Doug! BAD DOUG!!
I’m not the one who brought me back into this. Doug did, by admittedly lying about me in a blog post. Its clear he’d rather double down on this nonsense rather than simply admit he’s held a position inconsistent with being a follower of Jesus.
Ryan, you constantly misrepresent the content of the thread. The Biblical law hasn’t changed. How is owning a slave in the USofA different from owning a slave in ancient Israel?
The system in America was built upon man stealing and racism. You can’t separate those things. And therefore, participation in this system was not biblical.
Ryan, have you read any British history? All in good humor here, but It can help to provide some perspective. Those guys practically invented colonialism, imperialism, and how to go forth and conquer. The British never paid for a war, they harvested the land, stole all the resources and enslaved the people. My point being, such is the nature of human beings all through time, and most of the world has been far better at then Americans. For you to say, “America was built upon man stealing and racism” reveals a very narrow and inaccurate focus. America was also built… Read more »
Did I say America was built? I thought i said “American slavery was built on…” if I didn’t say that I apologize and agree it’s a mixed bag in terms of how our country was built and founded.
No apologies needed, I was just trying to understand what you were saying. I believe you were originally responding to Dave’s question, “How is owning a slave in the USofA different from owning a slave in ancient Israel?” I hope he’s not serious because the answer to that would be Jesus Christ. Christ is why we are no longer under biblical rules and old laws regarding slavery. What is different about us today and ancient Israel? Hopefully grace, mercy, recognition that God so loved us, He gave His son? I believe the laws given to ancient Israel were actually designed… Read more »
BTW, I said “the system in America was built…” speaking of slavery…not America was only built on slavery (although it certainly helped a great deal)
You didn’t hear that Russell Moore is now speaking ex cathedra?
Pope Russell really doesn’t have an authentic ring to it. It’s a bit like Queen Tracy or Saint Britney.
Pope Russell really doesn’t have an authentic ring to it.
In Moore’s case, Pope wouldn’t be authentic at all – it should be Popette Russell.
So you know more about where Dougs heart is than what racism is…
I have no clue about Doug’s heart. And neither do you. But I do know what he has written and the things he has written about as it relates to being a follower of Jesus and owning slaves in America are racist.
Then as Doug said: What is racism, and where does the Bible identify it as sin?
I’ve already answered that. Actually so has Doug, many times over he denounces racism and says it’s evil. The problem is, it’s like Hillary Clinton saying she cares for kids while pushing for abortion to be funded, that simply doesn’t work. It also doesn’t work to say you’re not racist, while giving cover for American slavery which was rooted in racism.
Do you really believe that choosing to think of someone as inferior to yourself because of a man made construct such as race is not sin? Where do you see biblical license for that?
“It also doesn’t work to say you’re not racist, while giving cover for American slavery which was rooted in racism.”
What cover can anyone give for an institution that no longer exists?
Ryan Sather said:
Five hours later, Ryan Sather said:
It’s pretty great, isn’t it?
Ryan, Pastor Willson has repeatedly defined/described his understanding of what the Bible teaches are sinful attitudes/actions toward other races. His question does not imply otherwise; he’s merely asking that you do likewise — define your terms and root your definition in Scripture.
I did.
So, to recap: 1) Even though in your article you said you’ve deleted my “malicious PC” comments, you confirm here that was indeed not truthful. 2) You question whether the Bible calls racism a sin, while also saying its slanderous to call a person a racist. Which one is it? 3) I do clarify, point to the Scripture as my basis for the sin of racism, and point to your specific words about the ability for a follower of Jesus to be on solid biblical ground to own slaves in the historical context of American slavery, as grounds for this… Read more »
2) You question whether the Bible calls racism a sin, while also saying its slanderous to call a person a racist. Which one is it?
Holla!
Doug said:
Ryan replied:
You’re not really into the Socratic Method, are you?
You should read the full response. I gave a definition of racism, why it’s a sin according to Gen 1:26, and shared some additional resources I’ve found helpful. I will say though, it did surprise me to see a pastor question racism as sin. So I did also ask a question in return.
He didn’t.
Asking someone a question questioning the subject of the question.
I suppose my son’s algebra teacher questions the quadratic formula, because she kept ASKING the kids about it.
Another reason not to homeschool. ????
It is?
Oh, do we have public school to thank for your lack of ability to follow even the most basic argument or rhetoric?
Good one.
Jane, would you please do me a favor and explain the relevance of Ryan’s rejoinder to your remark. Is he praising the teacher for asking searching questions to elicit understanding? Is he saying that such teachers are not found in home schools? Or is he supposing that you’re a home school mother who has furnished your child with an algebra teacher who asks the kids to help her understand math? The seeming irrelevancy of his remark is bothering me like a loose filling. Shadows of penumbras indeed–there was be a core of meaning somewhere.
“1) Even though in your article you said you’ve deleted my “malicious PC” comments, you confirm here that was indeed not truthful.”
Comments like this make me wonder if thou art in fact capable of reading.
I wonder why there’s been no response from Thabiti to your “word salad” of a post? All your flowery words, with no substance, makes sense to me he didn’t give it the time of day with a response back.
https://goo.gl/images/CmAqAi
“I don’t think you believe yourself racist.” Wow…that’s quite the passive-aggressive smackdown. So…you’re saying Wilson is both a racist AND delusional?
No, I’m saying I think he has a blindspot…as do most of us.
When Zaccheus decided to repay the money he had defrauded and then some, how do you envision our Lord bringing him to that moral epiphany? By yelllng Thief! Thief! at him, or by the kind of patient and hopeful love that brought out the best in him?Which strategy guides your interactions with Doug?
Depends if you see a Zaccheus or a money changer in the temple….the Lord brings folks the truth in a variety of ways.
Ryan Sather said:
I’m just quoting this to save it for posterity.
Just not you, clearly.
of course I do…when did I say I didn’t?
And if you should ever wonder what your blind spot might be, I expect the folks around here could help you figure it out.
Absolutely, point it out
I’m afraid you’re going to have to let that word go, Pastor. It’s never had an objective semantic meaning, and it’s not going to start now. “Racial malice” and “racial vainglory” are nice substantive terms and worth addressing. “Racist” is always going to be at the same level as “snot-nose”.
And “cracker.” Or, should I say…the “C” word. We could get it banned from public discourse, you know. At the very least, we could make Blacks stop saying it while we continue to call each other “cracker.” That would be fair.
I don’t mind the term “cracker” because I’m not from Florida or Georgia. ;-)
It’s not a word I use, but I don’t condemn someone else for using it.
I don’t say “the N word” much either, but I have friends and family members who do.
Neither word is a big deal to me. But it is odd that Doug would never use “the N word”, but tosses “cracker” out there fairly regularly.
Since you’ve posted under different aliases and got rid of your old disqus account, I can only give a sampling of Ryan’s greatest hits. There’s plenty of stuff on slavery, but I won’t go there:
“Says the guy who married his sister”
“Why do I keep picturing a dog that licks your face while peeing on your leg when I read these interactions.”
“…why don’t you relax take a chill pill and get back to your minion Hood”
“You’re lazy, but that’s not surprising.”
None of those comments are PC, nor were they deleted by Doug. And none of those comments were made with Doug not knowing who I was…
It would be hard to find because Ryan Sather posted a lot of his nonsense under “JP” and he purged that embarrassment himself.
Along with there not being a record of deleted comments.
C’, as I said to a friend of mine once:
“God does have some poor angel writing down this entire pathetic conversation!”
All of Ryan’s comments are recorded on the only record that matters, as are everyone’s!
Fair point. Specificly Doug does not have a record of all the comments he has deleted. So there’s no point in asking him to show you which of your comments were deleted.
I don’t think we will ever get an honest discussion about race until Christians stop using their guilt hammers on each other. Only Christ frees us from guilt shame and the resulting vindictiveness. Only Christ can bring us together. The perceptions and feelings of the pagans will always want to accuse the other in order to elevate the god of self. Should there even be discussion with those on that team? They don’t want to forgive and heal, as it takes their power away. This goes for worldly ‘Christians’ too
Thomas Sowell has written a series of essays and published them as a book titled “Black Rednecks and White Liberals”. I commend this to anyone who is really serious about understanding what our problems with race were/are. While Sowell does not appear to be overtly Christian, his reasoning and conclusions about almost everything are solid and appear to mesh with Biblical principles.
I am reading that book now, and commend it highly.
Another one of the exercises in missing the point.
The people who have at least something, any faults whatsoever, to apologize for in the racial discussion are:
All Black people
All White liberals
Really out-there and open racists
The people who never have anything to work on or apologize for in the racial discussion are:
All White conservatives who aren’t openly, obviously racist. They are without sin in this arena.
So ‘racist’ is just a synonym for ‘white person’ then.
I know you and other actual racists like to say that, but I have no idea what relevance it has to what I posted.
Well, you insinuate that there’s white people that are overtly racist, and white people that are covertly racist. Is there a third category?
I mentioned three categories:
White liberals
open racists
White conservatives who aren’t open racists
And I didn’t create those categories, Pastor Wilson has in his previous conversations on this subject.
How you got “racist is just a synonym for white person” from those three categories, I have no idea. Well, actually I do. It was the narrative that played in your head.
White people who aren’t liberal or conservative maybe?
Well hey, that’d be me. ;-)
Wait! What? You mean that you are a person? ; – )
Just wanted to give a big thanks to Ryan Sather today for making “anti-racism” look stupid.
He ignunt.
The uneducated Canadian version is “iggornant.” I really like the sound of that.
I’ve seen a lot of stories like this lately, though the MSM tries to bury them: http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/elderly-woman-beaten-set-on-fire-in-black-on-white-attack/
Most of the incidents happen in the Deep South, a place where whites are supposed to be repenting from things that happened decades ago. I wonder if any church assemblies–or Thabiti or Russell Moore–will address it?