Everyone knows that dirty cops exist. We all know that somewhere, somehow, some cops are on the take, some are morally incompetent, some are on a power trip, some disable their body-cams before taking care of business, and so on. Anyone who believes that dirty cops can’t exist is someone who is unaware of the biblical doctrine of sin, is bereft of common sense, and is woefully lacking in his knowledge of the corpus of the American film industry.
So when an incident happens somewhere, one involving a cop and a black teenager, and all hell breaks loose, how are we supposed to think about it biblically? What are we to think of it while the rioting is in process? Since we know a priori that official malfeasance is a possibility, and even more likely in some corrupt jurisdictions, does this move everything to that famous “level playing field?” No.
Before there is an investigation, we don’t know all the facts. Both sides don’t know all the facts. Those rioting don’t know the facts, and those not rioting don’t know the facts. Does this put both sides on an equal footing then? No.
In the world of biblical justice, a mastery of the facts is necessary in order to condemn. The principle is stated over and over again in Scripture—“At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death” (Deut. 17:6). You may not condemn a man unless his crime has been independently confirmed. Without such independent confirmation, you may not condemn a man for violating his responsibilities as a citizen, and you may not condemn an officer for an abuse of his powers. In the name of Christ, you may not.
The cops don’t get to do it to us, and we don’t get to do it to the cops.
It is biblically nonsensical to say that you need two or three witnesses in order to not condemn a man. To put it that way would amount to saying that a man is guilty unless he comes up with two or three witnesses who prove him not to be. That is, guilty unless proven innocent.
So prior to an investigation and trial, nobody has all the facts. But that still doesn’t put everyone in the same position.
I don’t need all the facts in order to not execute an accused officer. I need all the facts to condemn him. I don’t need all the facts before I decline to burn down the shop of a Vietnamese immigrant. I don’t need all the facts before I don’t throw a brick through a window. I don’t need all the facts before refusing to tip over a car to set it on fire.
Before taking any action that would condemn or destroy someone, or would destroy his property—before the use of coercion, in other words—I must know what actually happened. Otherwise I am just part of what John Knox once called “that rascal multitude.”
When there is prima facie evidence of wrong, there should be an indictment. After the indictment, there should be a trial in open court, with the accused going into the trial with the presumption of innocence.
Take last year’s rioting in Baltimore. After Freddie Gray died in police custody, rioting ensued. Millions of dollars went up in smoke because lots of people knew what happened, or so they thought. After the smoke cleared, and charges were brought by the prosecutor against six cops, what happened? One acquittal after another, and how does one undo devastating riots?
Our current situation is in Milwaukee, and it is playing out with a sickening familiarity. We don’t need no stinking facts.
The people who know what side they are on before the trial, the people who don’t need a trial to find out what they ardently feel about it, the people who justify rioting, these are the people that the Lord is visiting upon us for our chastisement.
Two last comments:
The first is about the picture I used up above. I don’t know the incident, don’t know the city, don’t know the name of the cop, and don’t know the name of the woman. I don’t know the story there. But I do know that by itself the photo is grounds for indictment. It is hard to construct a scenario where something like that could be justified. Maybe it was photo-shopped? She was falling over and he was trying to catch her? So I want to live in a country where that cop’s defense attorney gets to make a brave attempt at it—and where the cop pays a heavy penalty if his defense attorney fails.
The second is that this post is about the spark that sets off a room full of fumes. I am telling you what I think of explosions. Another post for another time may address how the policies of liberalism create such fumes in the first place. The issue in all such places of economic hopelessness is leftist economic policy driven by envy. Whenever you look at a devastated cityscape, you are likely looking at something that could be labeled “your taxes at work.”
Well it, thanks.
“When there is prima facie evidence of wrong, there should be an indictment. After the indictment, there should be a trial in open court, with the accused going into the trial with the presumption of innocence.” Yes, all true, but I think what Wilson fails to understand is that not all of us have faith, trust, belief in the wheels of justice anymore. Dare I say that horrible word, “privilege,” but it is true, believing that you can find justice within our legal system is a position of privilege. Feeling as if you can simply turn to your government for… Read more »
That is a tough position to be in. However, the believer always has the coming justice of the Lord to comfort him. That justice will be perfect, and it’s anticipation in this life is strong medicine against the hopeless anger of an embittered soul.
There really isn’t much difference at the foundational level between an angry mob and an entrenched unrighteousness in the courts. It’s the same desire for power working its way out a little differently.
Oh,amen to that. So my next question is, how have we failed to teach that to those who need it the most and why have we left them so vulnerable to other influences?
Memi, we have faith in God!
Micah 6:8 tells us to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.
All Justice comes from God, sometimes via the state. Always fight for Justice, as you are led. But do expect some injustice along the way.????
You know what we often dream of in my neck of the woods? Winning the lottery so we can spend all the money on a team of lawyers so we can sue all the people who have treated us unjustly, who have placed stumbling blocks in our way, who have broken the law because they could. A lifetime of injustice. So I guess I understand the rioters,however stupid that is. Consider how powerless conservatives felt when Hillary was pronounced guilty,but above the law, so what difference does it make. That’s how some of us feel everyday. There are two sets… Read more »
Fear not Memi. There is one set of rules for everybody! God’s rules! God’s Justice works out better than our own justice fantasies, even on the day we die! By the way, the Clintons are not getting away with anything, as far as God is concerned. You and I will not get away with anything as far as God is concerned either! Memi, it sounds to me like you do a fair amount of justice every day! Isaiah 58 6 I’ll tell you what it really means to worship the Lord. Remove the chains of prisoners who are chained unjustly.… Read more »
Surely an expectation of justice within any justice system is a thing of degree. Even in the most righteous justice system, one can only expect an approximation of justice. Further, in dealing with corrupt justice systems, such systems are rarely, if ever, so corrupt that they never yield a just verdict. As a result, your conclusion that “feeling as if you can simply turn to your government for a redress of grievance is a position of privilege,” seems to be a fairly dramatic overstatement. I am sure that most rational and reasonable people understand that they will not get perfect… Read more »
ME, I don’t have a lot of faith in the court system anymore either — but I trust it a lot more than I do riots.
Thats surprising to me that you feel that way Doug. I mean, just today you had a huge win in the court system. Pedophile won again. Baby lost. Pass the Laphroaig folks. Doug’s boy Sitler gets some more opportunities and his wife won’t stop it.
So judge liz, please enlighten us on how the baby lost. Per this post, I’d be interested to hear the facts first . Do you have access to all of them?
Hi “A” dad, good reminder that the need to know the facts before judging applies even when the supposed facts are really really bad.
They are self admitted facts from the mouth of the perp.
Hi Liz, that’s absolutely true, but that’s not nearly all the facts that are relevant to a judge’s decision in this type of case.
yes unfortunately you are right. Its why i grieve for the child and pray for his protection
Yes, we should pray for the child’s protection, but saying that Sitler and others like him should have their children taken from them is calling for the family law equivalent of the death penalty. And a death penalty decision — even more than other decisions — should not ever be made from afar.
would you still say that if it was YOUR child he had molested? Sin has consequences. The baby shouldn’t have to bear that burden
Hi Liz, perhaps not, but that would be an emotional response, not a reasoned one. Also, if it were my child, I would not be judging from afar. People with actual knowledge of all the relevant facts are perfectly well entitled to be dogmatic in their conclusions.
My only point is that, for those of us in the bleachers, our willingness to let the legal process play out before making up our minds should not vary with the heinousness of the alleged crime — whether that crime be child molestation, or police brutality.
understood. Please watch out for that baby. i won’t bother anybody again.
Talk about a thread hijacking. Are you related to D.B. Cooper, Liz?
no I am not. Ill leave ya’ll alone. Just heartbroken today. My apologies pastor wilson. Ya’ll please watch over that child. Please. Forgive my initial comment it was inappropriate and uncalled for
Baby has to live with admitted pedophile daddy again. do YOU have all the facts??
I don’t! Which is why I withhold condemnation .
So the child lives with his father. The father confessed to his crimes and served sentence. The state put him on parole .
I’m certain there are other facts as well!
there are many more facts and I pray that the abuse will never happen again
Sounds great Liz !
Let’s remember to pray for the dad especially!
I’d be happy for some prayer as well! Albeit for different reasons.
I’m not sure how representative your perspective is. I haven’t looked into this specifically, but my impression is that in most cities the people you say expect no justice are making the majority of the calls to the police seeking it. And often for very trivial things.
So in effect what you are saying is what my father said once: “Even if you didn’t do what I punished you for, you’ve certainly done something equally bad I didn’t catch you at. So I am justified in what I did.”
Nope.
The strategic weapon of social progressives is the the redefinition of words; their tactical weapon is the refabrication of facts.
Corrupt police in America do exist, but anyone who has lived overseas or read history should admit we are comparatively blesses in that regard.
Second, dougs point is on large scale issues, yet I’m guessing many of us condemn without info others in our work, church or families all the time. The place we actually have impact.
I’m hearing good things from the Philippines these days.
Very true. And I have 1,000 times more confidence and respect for my local police than I do for the so-called Justice Dept., which is nothing more than a political/social engineering tool at this point.
Comparatively blessed compared to what? Third world countries?
United States has about 1,000 citizens killed by the police every year. Most other Western nations are hovering around one to five. I mean actual one to five, numbers you can count on one hand.
You’re comparing largely homogeneous countries with to melting pot nation with a very high crime rate. Total apples and oranges. Transplant inner city Detroit, L.A., Milwaukee, New Orleans, Memphis, Baltimore, etc. to those countries and see what happens. Of course, we’re Europe is starting to get a glimpse with the rise in migrant crime. Either their cops are going to be more proactive (which will lead to more killings), or they’re going to lose of money from tourists.
Last year American cops killed 581 White people, 306 Black people, 195 Latino people, and 64 Asian/Native American/others. German cops shot 2 people the same year…total (though many years they shoot 5-6). British cops usually end up with a body count of 0-2. I could go on, but those are two big countries with about 10,000,000 non-White people combined. Going off the American ratios, their police should be killed at least 25-30 non-White people a year and something like 100+ White people. Yet you can count the bodies on one hand. Sorry, but playing the “but cops have to shoot… Read more »
While I’m a very quantitative type, your numbers are meaningless without a context. Again, look at the amount of crime and the type of people (by the millions) in our inner cities. Read Jim Aldridge’s posts about the realities of law enforcement working in such areas. The migrants may eventually turn European cities into something similar, but it’s not even close right now.
If you want to compare the U.S. with something remotely similar (melting pot with lots of crime), try Brazil. And I’ll take our cops over Brazil’s any day of the week, regardless of the numbers.
Pretending that Brazil is a more comparable nation to the USA than the major European nations is absolutely ridiculous. Did those 581 White people get killed by police in inner-cities? And am I not always hearing that meme “But European cities have just as much crime as America, so gun control doesn’t work!” Heck, I’m constantly hearing that England has MORE violent crime than America, that London is a hellhole, that France and Germany have inner cities so bad they have no-go zones, etc. Of course, those are all lies, but it’s interesting to see how quickly the lies shift… Read more »
Did you see this post below? Correction – I actually went through and crunched the numbers, and it would be something like this: Expected deaths due to police in UK/Germany if they killed at the same rates as American cops by ethnicity. White persons killed: 377 (2.93/million) Black persons killed: 15 (7.66/million) Other non-White persons killed: 50 (4.5/million) So even factoring in race, there should be over 440 people killed by police in UK/Germany if they killed at the same rate as American cops. Instead, we’re talking numbers on the order of 5. (There were 11 million “other” non-White people… Read more »
Correction – I actually went through and crunched the numbers, and it would be something like this: Expected deaths due to police in UK/Germany if they killed at the same rates as American cops by ethnicity. White persons killed: 377 (2.93/million) Black persons killed: 15 (7.66/million) Other non-White persons killed: 50 (4.5/million) So even factoring in race, there should be over 440 people killed by police in UK/Germany if they killed at the same rate as American cops. Instead, we’re talking numbers on the order of 5. (There were 11 million “other” non-White people in Germany/UK. This includes about 5… Read more »
That is not relevant to corruption, unless you are arguing that these were all illegal killings the police got away with.
Look up the history of police in Mississippi, Chicago, Oakland, Rampart, Kern County, etc.
We hear that certain groups of people live in constant fear of the police.
Why aren’t they scared of the police when rioting?
Or having demonstrations? C’mon,man, don’t break the narrative. You’re not supposed to ask those questions.
it’s not that difficult to empathize here. People can live in constant fear of the police as individuals. When the media coverage is on and there are multiple people involve people will feel safer.
And many of those people live in fear because there is 24/7 media coverage (including social media) and it’s largely one-sided whenever a controversial event occurs.
irrelevant
Really? So it’s irrelevant that CNN edited the comments Sylville Smith’s sister, giving the impression she’s calling for peace instead of rallying the rioters to “take that s*&# to the suburbs. Burn that shit*&# down”? http://tomwoods.com/blog/cnn-if-we-remove-her-violent-threats-she-sounds-pretty-good/?omhide=true
It’s only irrelevant for braindead types who buy into the narrative.
your statement was irrelevant to my comment on being able to empathize with how people feel. Regardless of whether the media coverage is fanning the flames or (more likely) finally bringing some light to a subject that has been ignored.
Safety in numbers. Stupidity feels justified in numbers. Not surprising.
Should a large group of people disturbing the peace and breaking the law be afraid of the police? If so, what can be done to make this happen?
I think the answer to the first question is yes. The answer to the second question is sometimes a declaration of martial law. That requires a lot of police power to maintain, if it is even feasible to begin with.
I think the need to declare martial law in the first place is an indicator of social breakdown and judgment. In other words, a lot of mistakes and missed opportunities have already built up (assuming that the goal was not to deliberately provoke unrest and rioting).
I’d say every individual in a mob should fear God. That is the beginning of wisdom, and it will only be accomplished through the power of the Gospel. Once that transformation takes place the decision to be a member of a mob will be made in a way that respects the authority God has placed over you. I don’t think this level of calculation can be reached by people apart from the Gospel. Outward reactions may be changed by police using force (which isn’t a bad thing), but it will never be a respect rooted in the fear of the… Read more »
“….the decision to be a member of a mob will be made in a way that respects the authority God has placed over you.”
Huh? I’m sure you meant – “The decision not to be a member of a mob will be made because you respect the authority God has placed over you.” Right?
Ha! Yes that’s what I meant. I should proof read more often. One little word… Thanks.
Why should a mob of any sort be tolerated?
How would you define mob? Is it necessarily a violent group in your mind?
Mob, n. 2) A throng; a rabble; esp., an unlawful or riotous assembly; a disorderly crowd.
Right, it makes it safer for them to loot and assault “crackers” as they’ve been doing in Milwaukee.
ashv asks: Why aren’t they scared of the police when rioting? It’s one thing to be afraid when singled out and outnumbered by police. But ordinary people feel stronger when organized, and even minimally armed. I think that feeling is generally correct. It’s not difficult to overwhelm local police departments, and require them to seek outside help. People who have experienced riots up close know how quickly local police, fire, and rescue can be rendered unable to achieve control, or become unwilling to throw away their own lives trying. Police don’t like suicide missions any more than anyone else. We… Read more »
As a great man from a wiser era put it: pour la canaille, il faut la mitraille.
I agree, and they have to follow procedures. Cops can’t run into uncontrolled situations, and they necessarily rely on the vast majority of people following orders. The curfew laws after the riots and the earthquake worked because most people saw the need of obeying the mayor and the governor. But if eight million Angelenos had decided to ignore the curfew law, the cops would have been powerless. As a Canadian, I had never appreciated how Americans feel about the right to bear arms. But I had never before been terrified that a mob might harm my child. It gave me… Read more »
My proposed answer: Rioters believe (mostly correctly) that the police cannot, or will not be allowed to, effectively oppose them.
Until enough violence can be deployed to make prospective rioters certain that disturbing the peace will result in seriously unpleasant personal consequences, they will continue.
I was amazed at the number of people who ratted out their neighbors for looting during the riots. I think that was one of the few healthy things that happened.
I wasn’t living in LA yet when the riots happened, but I had several friends who were, and they told me that everyone they knew who participated got caught. Combination of ratting and a lot of TV/security footage.
Since Doug brought up the Freddie Gray situation……the acquittals do not mean a crime or injustice was not committed. It seemed clear to me well before the riots started that the officers were guilty of at least gross negligence, disobeying and ignoring departmental procedures, and should have been summarily fired – at a minimum. That it didn’t reach the ridiculous threshold required to convict a law enforcement officer merely speaks to the perception that officers are above the law.
It’s kind of a police equivalent of the O. J. case, where he was declared innocent, but her heirs sued him for civil damages and won.
Let Freddie Gray’s heirs sue in the police in a case where the standard is “preponderance of evidence” and see what happens.
I find that to be a reasonable analogy. Practically I don’t think it would go anywhere – they’d have to find a competent lawyer willing to take this on a contingency basis. Plus, the police union would likely counter-sue with what’s called a SLAPP suit and likely also file for slander/libel. The costs are prohibitive and favors the law enforcement side.
In the case of OJ Simpson, there was no real such threat and the Brown’s had the financial means to pursue “justice”.
Let Freddie Gray’s heirs sue in the police in a case where the standard is “preponderance of evidence” with a black jury and see what happens.
FIFY
Biggest problem in that case was that the prosecuting attorneys overcharged. I mean, “second-degree depraved-heart murder” – seriously?
There’s also a weird lack of parallelism in the responsibility that police are given in an incident vs. non-police. If a regular person is involved in a crime, and someone dies, they can be charged with murder. This is even true if they were only the getaway driver so, say, some robbery, and they never planned to kill anyone nor have anyone killed. This is EVEN true if the death was at the hands of the police officer. I’ve read at least one case where two people committed a crime, the police shot and killed someone on accident as the… Read more »
Actually, according to the definition that seems to fit. At least to me. The officers disregarded policy, failed to secure their prisoner, and then took him on a “rough ride”. Even the medical examiner concluded his death could not be ruled an accident.
Yeah – actually I think you’re right that the definition could fit. I didn’t look it up. Just thought it sounded like something along the lines of “malice of forethought” or something. But still, from what I’ve seen, the charges were an over reach. Same thing with Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. He could have been convicted of a lesser crime it seems.
sure – I’ll agree with you there. The prosecutor when for the max of what she could rather than what was feasible.
But that’s part of the problem many of my African American friends have with the current system – it protects its own. I maintain that police abuse is rare. But when it does occur it should be able to be addressed. The problem is that while it should be difficult (you don’t want people blaming police for every little slight) it’s too difficult, imho.
Thank you for this, Doug. This is greatly needed at a time when we are living in a room full of fumes. Generally speaking, no one wants bad officers off the streets more than the good officers. The vast majority of us want to see justice done, and you have picked a great starting place for that discussion. You have laid a great foundation. May I be bold enough to suggest that you speak with some police training officers or officers that work in poverty stricken neighborhoods of urban areas and continue this sort of post from what you glean… Read more »
I would think that lack of care for the mentally ill must greatly compound the difficulty of the officer’s job. I read somewhere that the LA county jail has become, in effect, the largest mental hospital in the state, and that for many mentally ill people, their contact with law enforcement is as close as they ever get to “treatment.”
For the record, the photo above and incidents like the shooting of Walter Scott turn my stomach. Most cops I know find them pretty disturbing.
While we’re dreaming about what kind of country we wish for, how about this one? Let’s have a country where defense attorneys, if they become convinced their client is guilty, don’t think of it as an even bigger win if they get him off. I once served as a grand jury foreman. A guy was indicted for raping a little girl for three years while she was aged six to eight. Sorry to be graphic, but we were presented with the medical evidence, and we’re talking full penetration rape, on a first grader. When the guy was finally caught, he… Read more »
In British jurisprudence, the defense lawyer was legally prohibited from presenting sworn testimony that he knew for a fact to be false. That is why lawyers would never ask a client “Did you do it?” For, if the client said yes, he could not be put on the stand to swear to a lie. Nor could the lawyer help his client invent a convincing story. I think most of us now take for granted that the defense attorney’s job is to get the client acquitted by any means necessary. Until defense lawyers (and prosecutors) are disciplined for lying to the… Read more »
I am working on that myself now Jilly!????
Also, did you see that the AG of Pennsylvania, a “mini me” of HRC, was just convicted of perjury!?!?
Amen to that!
Yup. This happened in the Darren Wilson/Michael Brown case too. The DA put a witness for the defense on the stand that everyone knew was a compulsive liar and hadn’t even been on the scene. His team even encouraged her to show her diary to the grand jury, which they knew had been faked. The DA chose not to prosecute her for obvious perjury, and he was never disciplined for putting an obviously false witness on the stand to argue against the case he was supposedly supposed to be making himself.
People have forgotten it, but the first lawyer OJ Simpson hired for his murder trial abruptly quit soon after. Many people believe it’s because he became convinced Simpson was guilty and didn’t want to defend him.
Most lawyers will defend a client they suspect to be guilty, and that is a good thing. Otherwise hardly anyone suspected of a major crime could have a defense. I think that first lawyer did not like the intended trial tactics, however. It is one thing to vigorously demand that the state prove every element of its case. It’s another to suborn perjury. One of the Simpson lawyers was hissed in his synagogue for his role in the sleazy tactics of the dream team. The Bernardo-Homolka case in Canada was truly shocking. This was a young, attractive couple (the Ken… Read more »
I did manage to scare up some info on the picture in the post, in case anyone is interested: http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/krawetz.asp
Thank you for that. So a true story, if a bit out dated and the cop received a suspended sentence and quit his job?
The room is indeed full of fumes and I would contend that the people holding the gas can in one hand have a television camera in the other.
I’m glad the rioters didn’t get your hat, Brother Dweeb!
“The issue in all such places of economic hopelessness is leftist economic policy driven by envy. Whenever you look at a devastated cityscape, you are likely looking at something that could be labeled “your taxes at work.” I agree in principle. Detroit comes to mind right away. But how do you account for the likes of Seattle? San Francisco? Boston? Manhattan? Those are some of the most liberal cities, yet some of the most desirable places to live as evidenced by housing prices (high demand). Seattle, for example, has a gay mayor, an ELECTED & unabashed socialist on the city… Read more »
Two quick thoughts: (1) It’s too early to tell how this will work out in the long-term for those cities (2) Move up to the national level and you get Venezuela, Cuba and N. Korea. Cities aren’t isolated from state/national policies/trends, and it’s possible wealthy hipsters can keep them booming for some time.
Well, one might could counter with the examples of Japan, Sweden, or Canada. But that may lead to looking in directions other than the Republican meme “Capitalism = Good; Socialism = Bad.”
I was talking about totalitarian states, the far end of the Leftist policy and envy. There are other factors, though. Japan is a very homogeneous nation, and most people work very hard and are too proud to exploit handouts. However, they (and most of Europe) appear to be ticking economic time-bombs due to both their policies and low birth rate.
Speaking of birth rates, did you see this:
http://theweek.com/articles/642303/americas-birth-rate-now-national-emergency
Yikes!
It’s a weird quandry though. Isn’t there a happy medium between “constantly expanding population” and “demographic collapse”? There were already people in one of these recent threads complaining that America is far too crowded as it is.
Going back to Malthus, I think overpopulation’s been over-hyped. Ehrlich’s “Population Bomb” was a dud. Europe’s immigration crisis is being brought about in part because those immigrants are needed to provide the labor and tax base that European babies would have otherwise. America’s headed in the same direction. I have no problem with immigration. It’s needed for sure and always has been. But mass immigration with low birthrates is not a healthy combination. Crowding is nothing new. God’s provision through human ingenuity has always managed to overcome the gloomiest of predictions.
I specifically agree that Malthus and Ehrlich were WAY off base. That’s in part because they were focusing on the wrong problem (overpopulation in poor countries is not what has depleted global resources the most, by far it’s been overconsumption in rich countries that has done that), and partly because they were both really dumb about the solutions to the problem (once you have a basic minimal standard of reasonable agriculture, poverty and food insecurity causes GREATER overpopulation, not more. The best ways to keep population under control are education, strong access to health care, and a reasonable hope for… Read more »
I have never, ever met a person who envied North Korea, Cuba, or Venezuela. You’re going off the deep end here.
And Andy, you forgot Portland, which apparently is booming so hard it’s becoming almost impossible for the average person to afford to live there.
Yeah – definitely thought of Portland, but seemed a bit too small of a city to fit my example.
Canada ranks above us on the free market (i.e., capitalism) index. Sweden and Japan are just a couple of points behind us.
“It’s too early to tell how this will work out in the long-term for those cities.” Yeah – reminded me of a quote often attributed to Maggie Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” Seattle’s really turned a hard-left corner over the past couple decades – time will tell. And ME makes a good point about gentrification – a city can only handle so much before it starts to cave in on itself. Rising housing in the city will bring higher and higher tax rates on those same folks until they move… Read more »
Andy, along with people clamoring to get into Seattle, comes a mass exodus of people actually fleeing. I’ve never seen anything like it. Then there are the tent cities, the phenomenal homeless population, unemployment rates that are realistically at about 11%, but Seattle is allegedly “booming.” What’s actually happening is a kind of gentrification.
Seattle, like most major cities, is very nearly just a playground for the extremely rich. Regular people have to mortgage themselves into oblivion to afford to live there, and just forget about it if you aren’t a DINK. But as the conservatives tell us, income inequality isn’t at all an issue that anyone should ever care about.
Well, some conservatives care a great deal. And you are right, income inequality is a huge issue. To simply dismiss it as nothing but envy surprises me. That shows a certain kind of sort sightedness and political hyperbole that I pray doesn’t result in a rude awakening. On the other hand, perhaps a rude awakening is what’s needed?
“The issue in all such places of economic hopelessness is leftist economic policy driven by envy. Whenever you look at a devastated cityscape, you are likely looking at something that could be labeled “your taxes at work.” I agree in principle. Detroit comes to mind right away. But how do you account for the likes of Seattle? San Francisco? Boston? Manhattan? Doug, what about these cities make them different than Detroit, Camden, East St. Louis? They’ve all been run by liberals for decades, yet they don’t look like war zones. Same for the entire state of Vermont. Home of the… Read more »
I am guessing you have never been to Detroit…. right? I live in SE Michigan and go there all the time (I was downtown this week). It is not a highly churched place. And you go to a place that is highly churched (for example rural texas) and there is no economic devestation. So your argument fails. Further, there is a lot of data that suggests that economic freedom (small government) and economic prosperity are related causally. One thing that is true with church attendance is that it negatively correlates with criminal behavior. There is a lot of data to… Read more »
Explain why Detroit has collapsed, and Portland and San Francisco haven’t.
How would you explain it? Are you explaining it like 40 Acres as being due to a high amount of churches? You seem to have a love for God and His church. Do you just see the churches in these cities as in such a state that more of them is for the worse?
If you don’t like that idea, come up with one that explains it better.
Inception
Sure. I think Detroit’s story is pretty simple. In the late 1960s, there were race riots. These riots were particularly bad in Detroit due to some weird racial policies that Henry Ford put in place (Detroit is built on automotive). When blacks came up from the south, Ford put southern style segregation in and basically built up a lot of hostility. This came to a head in the riots. When the riots happened, something called “white flight happened”. White people were the ones with most of the wealth. Now, other cities had a similar pattern but Detroit’s riots were much… Read more »
I’ve had to visit San Francisco frequently for work, and yes, one has to be careful of the wildlife. But it’s not a depopulated ruin.
Neither is Metro Detroit. Detroit city proper has struggled (although there are signs of a turn around the last few years).
Explain please, what you’re saying. Why do you think this is, assuming your premise/correlation to be correct? I assume you are referring specifically to urban areas, right?
Are you arguing that no action should be taken to denounce police injustice until an actual indictment/conviction takes place? I am not sure how anyone could argue that given that the primary complaint of Afican Americans is that the system (from police, to the laws protecting them, to the judges and everything in between) is built in such a way as to allow cops to get off in 99% of cases. I am a white guy, but I have had horrible run ins with crappy cops who treated me in unjust, unfair and humiliating ways (in front of my kids).… Read more »
Wonder how this standard applies to something like accusing someone of plagiarism? For instance, did you follow this standard when writing about the plagiarism of Mark Driscoll? And do you feel that people have failed to use that same standard when writing about your plagiarism – or having your name associated with plagiarized material?
My daughter has a Bible; on the cover it has a man robbing a woman of her handbag, or so it seems. Opening the cover it shows him pulling her away from an oncoming vehicle that she didn’t see.
An excellent reminder of not judging before having all the facts.
That is excellent. We all have a tendency to rush to judgment. We put cops in that situation too, we expect them to make snap judgments based on what is often partial information.
Is that the Way Cool Bible that Randall Terry used to plug?
“Another post for another time may address how the policies of liberalism create such fumes in the first place. The issue in all such places of economic hopelessness is leftist economic policy driven by envy. Whenever you look at a devastated cityscape, you are likely looking at something that could be labeled “your taxes at work.”” The issues between the Black community and police in Milwaukee have been going on for decades, and to claim the problem is “liberalism” is beyond ridiculous. It’s really worth trying to understand the history of the city. Here’s some thoughts from a variety of… Read more »
But you see, around here the problem is always liberalism.
There’s now looting in Baton Rouge. https://www.yahoo.com/news/curfew-imposed-baton-rouge-looting-000000954.html
I’m not sure who to blame. Maybe 50% is the fault of bad cops and 50% belongs to George W. Bush? As long as we don’t hold the looters or looting/rioting culture accountable.
Have you
huggedracially reconciled a rioter today?I’ve been told my whole life that the only thing standing between us and anarchy is the police.
Yet, I’m having trouble finding the equivalent of police in the Mosaic Law. I can see the plaintiff and defendant, the judge, and the law code itself, but I can’t find the police. Am I missing it or was the role of enforcement radically different then? How does theonomy answer this?
Disclaimer: I’m not trying to diminish the importance of cops. I’ve been grateful for their presence many times, and have a relative who was a fine police officer.
The police and the national guard! I can’t tell you what a relief it was, as buildings a mile away began to burn and looters began running into damaged structures (after the quake) to see a secure guard presence on major corners. It was terrifying to see how quickly people descend into primitive behavior. But it would be mistake to see it solely in terms of race. When I was stuck at work in a bad area when the LA riots started, it was a black person who saw I got home safely. After the shaking stopped and we were… Read more »
Wow! I’m glad you were so well looked after. That must have been a crazy time.
I can’t imagine going through either of those, let alone both.
Whoa. I missed that it was two different times.
But, on the plus side, I missed the Manson murders!
I’m glad of that. If you could only miss one, that would be the one!
I must have complained one too many times that I was bored! The quake was far more frightening, and bizarrely random. Our condo unit remained standing while others across the way collapsed. There was no power or water for days, and I am sorry to confess that I had already eaten all the candy bars out of the EQ survival kit. We got our food from delivery trucks at grossly inflated prices until the governor laid down the law. Years of my husband’s science research was lost when the lab building at the university collapsed. My kitchen floor was an… Read more »
Wow.
I’d never heard about the noise of an earthquake.
I mean, I figured there had to be some noise, but not like that.
Among other things, it is the noise of houses slipping off their foundations, and walls breaking apart. And, of course, there is a certain liveliness in watching the gas mains explode.
You don’t remember what you were saying but your default was to pray, and his to swear. That brought a smile to my face. Blessings Jill.
There are lots of good-hearted people in all races.
Unfortunately, though, the percentages vary wildly.
“Yet, I’m having trouble finding the equivalent of police in the Mosaic Law.”
Are you a theonomist? If not, I’d offer the suggestion that it’s not what you’re missing in Mosaic Law but the fact that you’re looking there that’s the matter. If you are a theonomist…I guess never mind, and may it be that someone can supply you a satisfying answer.
Thanks, JohnM. I’m investigating theonomy and am so far neutral on it. I did figure out what I was missing though. In the days of the Mosaic Covenant, the people were bound together by the Covenant. Every man was a soldier, protecting the promises of the Covenant. Every man was a police officer, protecting the law of the Covenant. Protecting something, whether family or homeland or society creates loyalty and a sense of ownership. In the same way, in general, our cops and military have a strong loyalty to America. Their identity is tied to it through protecting it. Now… Read more »
Civic nationalism is a rather delicate flower and requires prosperity, strong government suppression of group interests, or ideally both. These things are getting eroded in America and unlikely to come back (though Trump is taking his best shot at it).
Why do some cultures within the US feel no loyalty to our country Well, maybe because nearly all the founders of our country, and virtually all our heroes and leaders and pretty much all our citizens, for hundreds of years, until quite recently, thought non-whites were inferior to whites and couldn’t be allowed to be citizens? Why would they feel loyal to a country founded by such people? Maybe because the media, schools, and churches tell non-whites 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, that white people are filled with a raging hatred of people that look like them,… Read more »
Yes, I think you are right in your analysis.
The second part of my question, how can we foster it, was wrong and worldly thinking.
There’s only one solution: the Gospel of Christ.
This is true. Specifically when the Gospel talks about taking up your cross, pursuing justice, loving your neighbor, loving the least, welcoming the stranger, inviting those to your feasts who can’t repay you, etc.
If we looked like an actual “Christian nation” in how we related to each other, the nation would have the great devotion of every culture within it, except for maybe small-scale fringe groups who wanted to concentrate power for themselves through other means.
I’m really confused about what media, schools, or churches you are familiar with that talk about White people 24/7/365.
The only places I know like that are internet sites. I’ve never seen a television media, school, or church that could remotely be described the way you do.
Cool story, bro!
While the 24/7 may not be true in fact, it is very possibly the perception of many.
It’s quite obvious I’m using a figure of speech to make a point and don’t literally mean schools and churches are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Some people, for whatever reason, think they look really smart by pretending to be utterly stupid. I will never understand why they do that. It doesn’t make them look smart at all; it makes them look childish, and it annoys people. There used to be a woman on here who loved to play that game. I finally got tired of her nonsense and blocked her. Haven’t seen her lately though.… Read more »
I’m sure that’s because you don’t like how I responded to your 24/7 claim, and not because I just proved utterly wrong your claims that Black people and guns were the reason that American cops shoot so many people. Using real data that you couldn’t contradict. You also claimed that I cried “crocodile tears” for Eric Garner and that I didn’t know the names of White people who’d died similar deaths. Both of those claims were clearly false as well, and were quite silly and disturbing things for you to say. That was much bigger conflict that me challenging your… Read more »
You proved no such thing.
And if you can’t handle banter like a man, you should probably get off the internet.
Everyone is welcome to read this exchange and our other one, and decide for themselves who’s being reasonable, and who’s not.
Factually defending oneself from false attacks on one’s person is “can’t handle banter like a man”.
But threatening to block someone for countering your claims apparently is run-of-the-mill.
It’s like we’re in bizarro world.
I agree – for now at least, anyone can read both of our positions and judge accordingly. But if you blocked me, so that I could no longer see nor counter your positions, then that would take that option away in the future. Which, I think, is what you’re aiming to do my setting up this little “conflict” here.
I have often wondered about this. During the first and second world wars, black people volunteered to fight and die for America at a time when they really were being oppressed in many places and when many were even prevented from voting. And yet they felt loyalty to their country. Something has changed for the worse. Yet even many white young people I know today feel no loyalty to America–at least, they feel so sense of obligation. What’s America ever done for me? They won’t even pay back my student loans. I imagine that there are many kids, maybe in… Read more »
I heard an interview with a bunch of “black” people once about when they were kids. It was the same for all of them. Their cultural center was the church. All the adults had no qualms about chastising them if they got out of hand. Also, they seemed to take the oppression as an opportunity to love their enemy. It actually united them as a people, and it united them with Christ, because they were helping him carry his cross. Now, in many parts of the US, people regardless of skin color have lost that sense of community. I often… Read more »
It seems to me that a lot of the rioters are young. I think that not having a dad in the home is a pretty sure way of encouraging young people to behave lawlessly.
Yes, I agree very much.
Governing authorities can foster it by showing loyalty to the citizens of the US.
Police and military have a vested interest, and that largely explains their loyalty. I don’t have a problem with that, I understand it. People who see a reason to think of themselves as stakeholders in some way are going to be loyal citizens.
The sister of the slain prophet urges the believers in Jerusalem to quit selfishly keeping the gospel of racial reconciliation to themselves, and start taking the Good News to the Gentiles in far flung Asia Minor.
“Burnin’ down sh*t ain’t going to help nothin’! Y’all burnin’ down sh*t we need in our community. Take that sh*t to the suburbs. Burn THAT sh*t down! We need our shi*t! We need our weaves. [Pause] I don’t wear it. But we need it.”
http://www.unz.com/isteve/whats-the-matter-with-wisconsin/
The media described this speech as a “plea for peace.”
“Another post for another time may address how the policies of liberalism create such fumes in the first place. The issue in all such places of economic hopelessness is leftist economic policy driven by envy.” I get this, but I think what is not being understood here is that these riots are not a symptom of poverty, they are not even racial, nor are they really about injustice. They’re about anarchy. They’re about unstable people venting rage because they think the system is broken and we have no leadership. We also have white, privileged anarchists doing these kind of things… Read more »
I get this, but I think what is not being understood here is that these riots are not a symptom of poverty, they are not even racial…
LMAO
https://news.vice.com/article/the-great-pumpkin-riot-is-a-white-riot-worth-taking-seriously
Thank you, Jonathan. That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m trying to point out. The Pumpkin riots, the May Day anarchists, even the Occupiers, these are all people engaging in anarchy and vandalism. It is the media that tries to portray everything in terms of race,and tries to make it far more scary if black folks are engaging in it. White people are just expressing ideology, “anarchy”, while black people “riot.” Milwaukee was a few dozen people, not a revolt, not a revolution, but the media is hammering away on the idea that there is a race war going on… Read more »
Say – wasn’t Dirty Cops a Village People song?
According to Wikipedia they had a song called “Hot Cop”
Close enough!
The story regarding the picture: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=leYM3W_F614
And after seeing it, my reaction is this —
While I wouldn’t have done it in his place, I’m not at all upset that he did it.
Krawetz was found guilty for his actions. He was not justified at all in kicking Donna Levesque. Americans thinking as you do is why Federal agents, SWAT, and patrol officers are able to murder or maim citizens without fear of ever going to jail for their actions.
Proverbs 16:32
And anti-Americans thinking as you do are why thousands of Americans are murdered every year by thugs and other special snowflakes.
“Anti-American thinking. . ,” llion, for the most part, the cops haven’t prevented thugs or snowflakes murdering anyone because they aren’t around. Sergeant Friday would say, “Just the facts, ma’am.” The facts are the cops aren’t around to help you in most circumstances. Anti-American thinking does not include calling for a communist style police state where cops can do as they please. Recently, I have been illegally stopped three times and twice the cops were ready to shoot me dead for no reason at all. Demanding cops follow the law and when guilty be punished in the same manner as… Read more »
Go bother someone who cares to subject himself to your leftist strawmen, misrepresentation, and intellectual dishonesty. I’m not that person.
No, llion you just support illegal actions by cops.
When cops were not protected by the false mantra of officer safety, we did not have cops beating the tar out of handcuffed prisoners while shouting “Stop resisting! Stop resisting!” We did not have cops shooting unarmed old folks, dogs, unarmed bystanders and so on because the officer “feared for his personal safety.”
No, seriously, you should go bother someone who is impressed with your dishonest histrionics.
how the policies of liberalism create such fumes
To be fair to liberals, the fumes are just human nature. Their policies manage them in dangerous ways, it’s true. They’re like farmers who don’t muck out the dairy barn and then blame the methane explosion on ill will.
No faith in our justice system? As a deputy prosecutor, I’m curious. How many of you have ever joyfully answered your jury summons, answered the voir dire questions honestly, been selected to sit on a jury, followed the instructions given by the court, and actually worked with the other jurors to reach a verdict based on the evidence, and not how you “felt” about the defendant or the charge? We need Christian jurors who think clearly! My biggest frustration are the homeschoolers who simply cannot be bothered with jury duty because they have to stay home and teach a co-op… Read more »
J Bradley, I sat on a Federal Grand Jury for a year and was amazed at the manner in which the Federal prosecutors and the various alphabet agencies misrepresented the facts and misrepresented the law in order to convince the jurors that they needed to go with the flow. That being said, I was also amazed at how ignorant the other jurors were of basic law and how many would simply take the position that if it weren’t illegal, it wouldn’t be in front of a grand jury. By the way, in the other jury pools I sat in, those… Read more »
Answering the voir dire questions honestly would result in never getting on a jury, so I wouldn’t waste time on it even if I wanted to support the US system. :-)