Dear Gabrielle,
The situation described in the following letters continues to be entirely fictitious, including persons, names, crimes, sins, relationships, circumstances and all particulars. The kind of situation that is described, however, is all too common and my hope is that biblical principles applied to this fictitious scenario may be of some help to individuals tangled up in a real one.
Thank you for the questions—even the pointed ones. For the record, I do think they are most reasonable questions. But the way we answer questions like this reveals, as few other things can, the vast distance between a biblical approach to counseling victims and a secular approach. It is not that the difference is that they tend to offer different “bits” of counsel here or there, but rather that they are cities built on top of different tectonic plates.
Your questions had to do with the propriety of me corresponding with your father, thus causing you to wonder “whose side” I was on. Before getting to the question of “sides,” let me just say that I was thoroughly convinced—before our very first exchange of letters—that you are the one telling the truth about this whole matter, and that your father is tangled up in a web of lies, told first to himself and after that to the world. He is in prison for his crimes, and this is right where he ought to be. He received a full and fair trial, he had every opportunity to answer the charges against him, and he was duly convicted and sentenced. I have talked with your aunt and uncle extensively about all of this, reviewed the court documents and the public reporting of the trial, and it is very plain that you have been the brave and honest one, and he continues to be dishonest and cowardly. All the biblical criteria for determining a just sentence for a man like him have been met.
And so I am certainly on your side—but there is an important distinction. It is not the same way an attorney would be on your side. Let me explain. One of the reasons why I am dubious about our common acceptance of “paid counseling” is that it tends to set up in people’s minds the idea of professional/client relationship, as you have when you engage an attorney. An attorney is hired to represent his client’s interests in a particular dispute, and one of the reasons this can work fairly well is that the other party usually has an attorney as well. We have institutionalized, via this system, the practice of hearing the best case both sides of a dispute can make (Prov. 18:17). We trust the system, and are okay with each attorney doing his part.
But this is not the case in counseling snarls. When I am counseling someone, as a minister it is my task to represent Christ in the situation, as best I can, and not represent one party or the other. If Mr. and Mrs. Murphy have a dispute and come in to see me (or the Smiths, or the Jones), I do not pick which one of them is my client. In the dispute, I might point out that she is in the right, but not because she hired me to make that case. I would say this because they laid out the problem with me, and I compared the situation to the teaching of Scripture (which is the authoritative voice of Christ), which then directed us all to the solution. I am doing this because it is my task to represent the truth of Scripture, and Christ is that truth.
In other words, I have been encouraging you because it is obvious that you are telling the truth. I am not encouraging you because your payments are part of my income stream. I am not encouraging you because your story happens to reinforce my partisan agenda. I am not encouraging you because you are living with some old friends of mine.
You are telling the truth because you are telling the truth, which has been independently confirmed. You are not telling the truth simply because the trial and conviction of your father fits in with the feminist condemnation of the patriarchy. Your story is one in which you really are the victim, but it is crucial that we give it credence because it is true—and not simply because it is a victim story.
I have a pastor friend in another state who has had to deal with a different kind of horror story in his congregation. A young girl accused her brother of molesting her, and he was arrested, tried and convicted, and is now in the penitentiary. He has been there for two years now. His sister was just recently converted, and as a result recently confessed that her accusations against her brother had been false. The sister had the compelling victim story, but her brother was the actual victim. So anyone who says things like “women never lie about rape” is playing politics—and a pastoral counselor who is seeking to represent Christ in a tangled situation must never play politics. You never believe one side or the other “just because.”
Now this brings me back to my correspondence with your father. With all this as the backdrop, simply communicating with him does not mean that I am on his side. I am on the side of the truth, and he is plainly lying. But one of the things that pastors are called to do is to help people confront the lies they tell themselves. The issue is not whether I am communicating with him, but rather what I am saying.
The situation you are in would be much easier—would it not?—if your father were to make a full and complete confession, with no more deceit and evasion. Now of course this would bring our previously discussed question of transacted forgiveness front and center, and that really would bring its own difficulties. But it would also bring the great relief of having your father say, “My daughter told the truth. She was the righteous one in this, and I was the wicked one. My sentence was just.”
A wise employer once fired an employee who had offered to steal something for him. He said that an employee who would steal for me would steal from me. This is real wisdom. And a “friend” who would lie for you is a friend who would lie about you. The thing that kept you in bondage for those years was a network of lies. Those lies, and any other lies, are never your friend. The truth is your friend, and it is the truth that has delivered you from an awful situation.
I hope this helps, but if it doesn’t feel free to follow it up with more questions.
Cordially in Christ,
“It is no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.” Mark Twain
I do think Clay brings up an interesting point, at least in a round about way because I think a lot in the church and definitely those outside the church have a problem with blanket forgiveness. As most have responded in the Biblical fashion, of course we are to seek forgiveness up to seventy times seven which I would agree, but where does wisdom come into play with such restoration within the church? Some seem to think certain sins/addictions are too deep and black to be fully washed at least this side of heaven. Thoughts?
The sad reality is that people rarely change. This is true in the church and this is true in the world. Most people, who have significant struggles with ANY sin, will continue to commit the same sin over and over again, experiencing very little progress against it. Therefore, we are right to acknowledge this basic human tendency. Part of the difficulty in interacting with subjects like this, has to do with the fact that we have basically codified the principle “people cannot change” in the DSMV. Scripturally speaking, people apart from Christ will be in bondage to sin. ESV Jeremiah… Read more »
I agree with your points. I suppose there are still many in the church who do not buy the notion that a new work was begun even within those sinners that we find particularly vile. But this strikes me as pride: our little games of sin comparison. I wish to determine the line between pride and wisdom as far as restoration within the church. True enough our sinful urges remain with us and we continually battle them this side of heaven with the Spirit’s help, but do certain arenas of sin preclude the notion of trust ever again, does forgiveness… Read more »
I don’t think it has to come down to comparing sins. It goes without saying that God may judge a pedophile much less severely than someone who was never tempted with ghastly sexual urges but who sinned in other ways. I think it is more useful to ask ourselves, what do we know about this particular sin? Is it likely, even extremely likely, to recur? Who will be victimized if it does? Will the victim be a child or anyone who we believe is entitled to extra protection because of his presumed helplessness? Can we be forgiving as a church… Read more »
So you lean towards forgiveness not necessarily with trust? Ok makes sense, I am just trying to decide if merely human wisdom, which is lock him and up throw away the key, is the best way for the church to operate in. Those are all obvious wisdom questions, I just hope the church attempts to work through them rather then have a decided policy with all people. Prison is a punishment not rehabilitation, it may have that affect on some, but we have a lot more work to do with people then simply let them serve time before they come… Read more »
I think one of our real difficulties is that because of the social stigma that quite rightly attaches to this crime, we never know about the people who have been tempted with it but who have successfully resisted. Nobody is ever going to come forward and say, “I’ve been struggling with this for years and this is what worked for me.”
Nor is it easy for a person to get help before he has committed his first offense.
This is a very significant point that you are making. If you started struggling with this issue and you knew that based on the diagnostic criteria in the DSM, you would be labeled a pedophile before you even acted on unwelcome desires, and you knew that you would face the scorn of society for having such a label, and if you know that, as many commentators have said here in one form or another “pedophiles cannot change (or more modestly: it is almost impossible for pedophiles to change) and should commit themselves to lifelong celibacy,” you would be a fool… Read more »
We can’t get useful statistics, and even medical research is impossible. By definition we can only research the people who have struggled and failed. A mental health professional would not be required to report a person who confided struggling with the feelings, but would have to report if he thought there was anyone who might be in danger. And nobody would be willing to have that on his record, knowing that records can be subpoenaed. The only totally safe person to confide in would be a priest in the confessional! There is information that would possibly change my views, but… Read more »
“I am not terribly sympathetic to the plight of the convicted child molester who thinks we should all just forget about it because he has repented. Some crimes, like murder and the rape of young children, have consequences we don’t get to walk away from.”
I am unsympathetic to this plight as well.
In One of the blogs in this series Doug makes it clear that forgiveness and trust are not equal, not synonyms, and to forgive does not necessarily mean that you trust the one you forgive. That person my not have repented of the offense or may have repented insincerely.
True enough, I hope my question is not being taken as an either or. I know they are different, but it seems like we are often willing to bank on the not trust-worthy part over truly seeking the restorative part for certain sins. As Christians I don’t think we are so easily allowed to stop there.
The Bible does not mandate some sort of permenant distrust for any category of sin. In fact, it does seem to counter this expectation in suprising ways. At first people are reasonably distrustful of Paul and later it becomes a non-issue. No one seems to be afraid that Mary the prostitute will seek to carry out her harlotry with their husband.
That doesn’t mean that there are not types of sin which violate trust to such an extent that it may be difficult to conceive of restoring the same level of responsibilities (e.g. fallen pastor).
I find this very difficult to come to terms with. I think that miracles are possible. But I have known celibate gays who have prayed every day since childhood that this burden be taken away from them, and it hasn’t. And the stakes are so much higher when a disordered passion has young children as its target.
What specifically did I say that you find difficult to believe?
No, sorry, I wasn’t disagreeing with you. I meant, I find it hard to juggle the possibility of change with the really grim statistics we read about how unlikely change is.
I think that, if it were I who had done so terrible a thing to a child, I would welcome lifelong supervision and never being trusted again because I would not trust myself. Nor would I want ever to be alone with a child in case I were tempted. But actual pedophiles don’t seem to think that way.
I was just making sure I understood your concern. I thought I had made all the neccesary qualifications :) I think several factors have to be taken into account: 1) The usefulness of the statistics. If we are surveying unbelievers, then do we expect these statistics to be relevant? If we are surveying professing Christians, then do we expect these statistics to be relevant (the wide gate is the gate of tares)? We do have to acknowledge that we have no means of doing surveys of actually regenerate Christians. 2) we can talk about forgiveness/trust dynamics however leaving that issue… Read more »
I don’t really know. It is true that most of the information we have on serial child molesters has been gathered from those who have been caught. We don’t know much about pedophiles who have never acted on their desires, or about those who have fallen a few times and then been successful in resisting temptation. There is research suggesting that the brain MRIs of convicted offenders contain less white matter than those of people who do not have these desires. They are three to four times more likely to be left-handed. Their testing shows deficits in memory and spatial… Read more »
Remember, I tried to make sure I avoided saying that both sins are equally difficult to repent and be cleansed. One could quite possibly be nearer to the bone so to speak. I am just asking conceptually if either is “difficult” for God to fix? I’m not sure if you answered this clearly or not. Part of the issue here is that the Bible does not simply command behavioral change, but desire change, namely put to death evil desire (Col 3:5). Desire change is easy for God. That doesn’t mean that we always believe this or act on this. Do… Read more »
I see pedophilia as a disease. Child molesting, if it follows, is the behavior. When I say disease, I don’t mean that the person who has it is free to give rein to his sexual desires as long as he stops short of acting on them with a live victim. I think that, like the rest of us, he must try to banish the sinful desires from his consciousness. I think it is harder for him to do this than it would be for many other people. I think that it can’t be difficult for God to fix. But I… Read more »
So, that is our difference.
I do not view it as a disease.
And God commands us to be rid of all James 1 temptation via Col 3:5.
Therefore, I have different expectations.
Perhaps this explains my comments.
I understand your qualification, but hear you to be defining a disease as basically an orientation that is impossible to change, but which must never be acted upon. If this is not accurate, then correct my misunderstanding.
I wouldn’t want to say impossible, but I would say it is very difficult. Not only must it never be acted upon, but the person is not entitled to indulge in fantasy as a substitute.
Sure, but I don’t understand why you are saying it is a disease if you view it as a set of desires and attractions which can be changed theoretically. In other words, this is the language of standard “sin,” not disease language. Further, it is difficult to blame a cancer victim for his cancer. So, disease language does generally diminish culpability in some sense. Now, I am left to wonder if you just want to view pedophilia differently than other sins, because you find it particularly disgusting and inexplicable, and are therefore trying to find some way to distinguish it… Read more »
There are sins which are common to most people, and there are sins that don’t ever cross a “normal” person’s mind. It is normal for healthy young people to struggle with the desire to have sex before marriage. It is normal for married people to experience attractions to men and women to whom they are not married. It is normal, though sinful, to get extremely angry and even to want to lash out at those who have hurt us in some way. It’s normal that a healthy person might at some point be tempted to commit a dishonest act or… Read more »
I agree with everything you have said about the normality and perversion of this type of sexual attraction. People are right to find it offensive and repulsive. However, you are in the unfortunate place of having to try to merge together two incompatible etiologies of this problem. So you seem to be going back forth between excusing and condemning, while at the same time considering this in some sense the ultimate evil. You may be able to maintain this precarious balance, but society will not. We have already been through this with sodomy. Many “unenlightened” people used to think that… Read more »
That’s why my preference would probably be for the church to counsel and support lifelong celibacy.
What is the biblical response to dealing with sexual urge?
For a normal person with normal urges, marriage is the biblical response. For the kind of abnormal urges that do not seem to disappear with marriage, I think voluntary lifelong celibacy probably does less damage. If marriage in itself relieved a person’s urge to have sex with young children, there would probably not be so many married child molesters. We know that, even with gays who seek only adult partners, marriage to someone of the opposite sex is not necessarily curative. In dealing with impulses that, if gratified, are deadly to small children, the person should embrace celibacy and use… Read more »
Jill, your plan is all very female. Men have sexual desires. They can be misdirected severely, but they may also be re-directed rightly. A man who sexually desires pre-pubescent children may also desire his wife. And that same man sexually enjoying his wife may find the battle against his perversion much easier. Forcing celibacy on him could make the battle much harder. We are to marry to avoid sexual temptation (rightly directed but illegitimate outside marriage). There is good reason to think marrying will dampen sexual perversion by giving a correct outlet. Likewise, a gay tempted man who has high… Read more »
bethyada wrote: Jill, your plan is all very female. More than that, jillybean’s plan is very Roman Catholic. jillybean wrote: If marriage in itself relieved a person’s urge to have sex with young children, there would probably not be so many married child molesters. Has jillybean forgotten that her own tradition has provided us with a control sample of what happens when sexual urges toward young children are combined with celibacy? Perhaps jillybean should not put her trust in marriage or celibacy, of themselves, as the cure. bethyada wrote: There is good reason to think marrying will dampen sexual perversion… Read more »
jillybean wrote: If marriage in itself relieved a person’s urge to have sex with young children, there would probably not be so many married child molesters. Why does jillybean suppose that marriage, by itself, should be a magical cure, rather than a proper outlet when combined with a repentant heart? jillybean wrote: We know that, even with gays who seek only adult partners, marriage to someone of the opposite sex is not necessarily curative. We also know that when someone begins an argument with “we know that”, then it is not necessarily followed by something we actually know. Again, if… Read more »
Do you disagree with the statement that gays do not necessarily abandon having sex with men when they marry women? Do you really need evidence for this?
jillybean wrote:
Does jillybean really need evidence that arguments beginning with “we know that” are not necessarily followed by something we actually know?
Does jillybean disagree that gays do not necessarily abandon having sex with men when they seek to remain unmarried?
Mealy lines of argument remain mealy even when the volley is returned in complement. I’m sure jillybean agrees, right about now. If not, she is welcome to answer.
Some statements which begin with “We know that” are followed by nonsense. Mine was followed by a fact for which there is overwhelming evidence–which I am happy to cite if you still dispute it. So attacking the “we know” formulation was pointless except for the purpose of discrediting my entire argument. Which is fine, of course, but stick to the point. Many gays go on having sex with men even when they are trying to lead celibate lives. Many gays go on having sex with men even when they marry women. Some gays marry women, are faithful for long periods… Read more »
In the case of Catholic priests I doubt all of them would have been paedophiles under normal circumstances. They had a lot of opportunity and no legitimate outlets for their appetites. The same thing probably happens with school teachers and daycare workers. They have access to a lot of kids, a relatively small chance of being caught, and often have life disfunction that limits their normal sexual outlets. Also, I’m troubled by how fully Christians have accepted homosexual as an ontological category. It is assumed (it is known?) that people are born gay. Yet twin studies show that here is… Read more »
jillybean wrote: Many gays go on having sex with men even when they are trying to lead celibate lives. Many gays go on having sex with men even when they marry women. And so this tells us what? It tells us that jillybean didn’t add anything to the conversation by informing us that marriage is not necessarily curative. Neither is lack of marriage. Perhaps we should start considering marriage in the context of repentance, and Christian accountability? jillybean wrote: No Catholic priest would knowingly preside over a marriage between a woman and a man who said to him, “I want… Read more »
“If a person does not believe that God is able to change a serial pedophile’s heart such that he will never want to go back to that sin, then he does not believe the Bible and worships a very small god.” Here is the issue though. We are not the ones offering redemption,salvation,or restoration. We can even forgive Judas and simply trust him to…. be Judas. Judas is going to Judas. It’s what he does, it’s his thing. Sometimes people get this all confused, so who offers forgiveness and restoration? The victim. What is forgiveness? To totally forget all wrong… Read more »
Was this comment meant to refute what I said, modify what I said, or supplement what I said?
I suppose I should like you to answer that question. Does what I have said, refute, modify or supplement what you have said?
It seems unrelated to me and a different issue. I assumed you saw some connection, so I was trying to see what you thought the connection was. I honestly am very sympathetic to your concerns, but would address these issues with a different framework.
Edit: but there are large areas of agreement here.
For instance, I would argue alongside you that “forgive and forget is unbiblical,” but replace that with the principle, “forgive and choose to actively remember no more.”
Also, I do think we are called or offer forgiveness. This is the gospel message isn’t it? An offer of forgiveness? But, I think I understand what you mean.
We are called to forgive. But are we called to forgive because someone has been made a new creature in Christ or are we called to forgive a deeply flawed creature who may well go right on being deeply flawed? I think it is the later. So our forgiveness redeems and restores no one. That is totally in Christ’s hands. Many people are perceiving forgiveness as now we put the guy in charge of the nursery. Of course that has not actually been done anywhere,but there are people who believe that is what forgiveness is all about. Judas remains Judas.… Read more »
I agree with the first paragraph in terms of the ultimate or eternal penalty for sin. In that sense, in offering human forgiveness we are not changing one’s eternal destiny or releasing God’s debt against them. However, we are releasing a personal debt against them (e.g. student loan forgiveness) and committing to: 1) not bring the matter up to them again in a harmful way (keep no record of wrongs), not bring the matter up destructively to others (gossip), and not intentionally bring the matter up to yourself ( actively remember the sin no more). So, something does happen with… Read more »
“…and such were some of you.” The Bible is no stranger to perversion of every sort, no doubter of God’s ability to restore, and no blind idealist regarding the need to be wise as serpents.
Absolutely! It just seems that some are more than willing to view the idea of restoration to let’s say, the scenario that continues to come up in this blog about Doug’s marrying a convicted pedophile, as always blind idealism rather than an honest attempt at true restoration. Are some attempts at restoration always blind idealism?
Some attempts at restoration are blind idealism. Not all attempts at restoration are blind idealism.
I would say that perhaps this is true from God’s perspective from but from a human one and as a minister and follower of Christ we would be encouraged to attempt it. I don’t think we get to stand before God and tell him who the lost causes were.
We should be encouraged to wisely weigh the evidence in front of us. Scripture speaks of bearing fruit in keeping with repentance, which means that we should expect to have ways to observe and evaluate such fruit. God calls all of us to practice such discernment, and especially pastors. If good fruit is NOT discerned, treating the individual as a good-fruit-bearer merely on his say-so would be blind idealism. Treating him as a not-good-fruit-bearer is not the same as telling God he’s a lost cause. In the case in question, good fruit was discerned, and counsel was given/action taken on… Read more »
Yes, and what you said is true as the result of making an attempt, you don’t learn any of things you said without attempting to restore them to the community as a true brother or sister, that is the process of ministry. I am not saying it will always work, but it doesn’t come from deciding ahead of time that it was blind idealism to try. Some people need help and we should be willing to walk through repentance with them.
I think we’re maybe talking about different categories of restoration. Being restored to fellowship with the body, on the one hand (what I think your comments are aiming at), and being restored to various roles or offices or levels of trust or opportunities or things along those lines (what I’m addressing). That help?
Some, like Crouch, assume the worst about Wilson. They fabricate and spread stories of negligence without any knowledge of facts. They have no idea what the leadership of Christ Church has done in guarding the rest of the flock.
Wilson has previously made a distinction between forgiveness and trust, on this blog.
“Some seem to think certain sins/addictions are too deep and black to be fully washed at least this side of heaven. Thoughts?”
I seem to remember the Apsotle Paul went right on having a thorn in his side. So some sins are not removed.
I don’t think the thorn in his side is necessarily sin and thus a lack or removal of it, it was there as a buffet to pride, we know little else. To simply say some sins are not removed and leave it there runs counter the Biblical narrative. The Biblical narrative is that our filthy robes have been completely covered in robes or righteousness. That lack of hope is not something I would minster with and seems to fuel the idea that certain restoration is always idealistic. Sure temptations are residual and must be dealt with but if Christ doesn’t… Read more »
I think we can pray that the person will be completely restored. I am sure that has happened before. But we can’t trust that this has happened to any one individual in particular. I think that sometimes we have to settle for the fact that perhaps the most that will be achieved in this lifetime is that the person will live as a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven. He will stay away from children because he doesn’t want to be tempted.
True enough, restoration is going to have certain signposts, but I would want to minister not merely in a “philosophy” of restoration alone, but actually minister in hope towards that end. I would pray we have pastors who operate in hope rather than resignation to certain people with certain sins.
Well, there is hope but there must also be caution. It would be wonderful if the person one day realized that his urges were gone. But it would still be prudent for the church not to take that for granted. The stakes are simply too high.
We do know that of the many things that produce this kind of sexual disorder, childhood abuse is common. The overwhelming need to ensure there are no new victims has to take precedence over our desire to forget about the past.
Absolutely, it is an immense challenge, and fragile balance to get right. I just pray we as those espousing belief in a forgiving and restoring God attempt it rather than not.
“To simply say some sins are not removed and leave it there runs counter the Biblical narrative.”
Well, there is the spiritual removal of sin and then there are the leftover fleshly desires, aren’t there? Many people stop drinking,they heal and recover, but they are still alcoholics who should not drink. God can indeed, heal anything, but He doesn’t always.
Yeah I get that temptations will remain and are a lasting challenge, but I don’t think adopting labels of identity such as always an Alcoholic or even Gay, Lesbian, or Trans Black, White, Pedophile etc. are the most helpful for addressing people when they are supposed to have a completely new nature in Christ. Perhaps naive, but I want to address Christians in hope as they are regenerate, which means leaving the door open to restoration, even it it doesn’t always happen.
Much of a Biblical view of sanctification can be summarized by telling others to “be what they are in Christ.” These identities you mention are very destructive towards this objective. It is difficult to pursue sanctification while at the same time defining yourself by your sin.
Assuming you are saying the thorn in Paul’s side was a sin, I am shocked. I do not think I have ever heard this suggestion, nor does it fit with my reading of Paul’s statements on the topic. Since this is usually translated as a “thorn in the flesh”, I think the most accepted understanding is that this was a physical impairment that made ministry more difficult. One suggestion is poor eyesight, but it requires a lot of supposition. I wonder if the idea that his thorn in the side was a particular sin is an attempt to support some… Read more »
We know Paul had a thorn in his flesh.
Therefore, something fleshly tormented him and God did not remove it. It could have been anything from migraines to bad memories. We don’t know.
People today who have been saved, redeemed, faithful even,often suffer from various afflictions and sins. So God does not always relieve us of all our issues. Pedophilia could easily be called a thorn in the flesh.
“Pedophilia could easily be called a thorn in the flesh.”The fact that some may consider this to be true does not make it so. Unfortunately, many seem to equate affliction and sin. In spite of the fact that they may be related, there is no equivalence. Although some physical afflictions may result from sin, there is no certainty that an individual’s sin will lead to physical affliction, nor that physical affliction is the result of that individual’s sin. Paul does not clearly state the nature of his “thorn in the flesh”. However, he did say (emphasis mine): “Now those who… Read more »
It just seems like semantics to me. Sin, affliction,desire, flesh, is there really some distinguishing thing going on here? We know Paul wrestled with something. We know how he felt about it. He did call it “practicing evil.” That can mean a lot of things, from binging on chocolate cake to holding onto bitterness. “For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice” (Romans 7:19 Of course both the desire and the action is sin, out of place in a Christian, but being a Christian does… Read more »
“Sin, affliction,desire, flesh, is there really some distinguishing thing going on here?”Yes, absolutely. These words are unique and can be distinguished. Without meaning, words are pointless. Of course this is semantics, defined as the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. Communication is dependent on the transfer of the speaker’s understanding to the hearer via language. Important point: It is very possible that the hearer thinks they understand, but they really don’t. This misunderstanding often leads to incorrect conclusions.Paul, indeed, wrestled with something. I think your assumption that his writing in Romans 7 is directly correlated to his “thorn… Read more »
“It is not logical that Paul would condemn sin but also boast about it, therefore his thorn in the flesh was not sin.” Well, the bigger the sins, the bigger the grace. Paul says, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” You said his thorn could have been coveting. Well, coveting is a sin. I’m pretty sure Paul wrestled with sin, because we all do,don’t we? To be saved, redeemed, is to be shown… Read more »
“Well, the bigger the sins, the bigger the grace. Paul says, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.'”If grace has varying degrees, it would be true that forgiveness of bigger sins requires greater grace. (Note: I absolutely believe that grace is necessary for forgiveness of sin and salvation, so please don’t suggest that I believe otherwise.)However, you are continuing to presume that Paul’s “weakness” is some specific sin, rather than a physical illness or… Read more »
Well, I think you are reversing things and missing the beauty of Paul’s words. Grace is not a desire to sin, it is a desire to sin no more. “However, you are continuing to presume that Paul’s “weakness” is some specific sin, rather than a physical illness or other physical weakness.” Does it even matter? What is sin if not physical, emotional,spiritual, weakness and infirmity? I do not subscribe to the idea that pedophilia is a disease anymore than the idea that alcoholism is a disease, except for the fact that we are being dis-eased, not spiritually at ease. When… Read more »
“Well, I think you are reversing things and missing the beauty of Paul’s words. Grace is not a desire to sin, it is a desire to sin no more.”I am not reversing things! In fact, you are completely mistaken in your understanding of grace. Grace is ” (in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.” In other words, grace, in this context, is an attribute of God – His willingness to forgive our sins for us to be saved. As to the “desire to sin no… Read more »
“When you make up your own definitions as you have done here (and I have seen you do before), your audience is likely to miss any truth in your comment, and damage your reputation so that future comments are likely expected to be of little value.” So says the little sheep so defensively wrapped in his wolf skin, whose fruit if the Spirit seems to be perpetual hostility, endless bitterness, and a propensity to take offense. In case you haven’t noticed, alleged “damage to my reputation,” is so far from my concern it isn’t even on the radar. I do… Read more »
Your implication that you understand Paul’s words better than I do is laughable, considering your ignorance of the definition of grace. So, rather than admit to any shortcomings on your part, you instead choose to be snarky and demeaning. Indeed, people are known by their fruits.I realize that you consider reputation to be irrelevant (perhaps believing that concern about one’s reputation is a form of pride?).”A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold.” (Proverbs 22:1 ESV)
I would give up, if I were you. By the time ME starts hurling insults, it is time to gently step away from the keyboard.
Edited: Removed this as it was a repeat of comment containing Proverbs 26:4 (it seemed that Disqus had lost it).
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.” (Proverbs 26:4)I should use my time and effort more wisely. As compared to her blog, where she seems to be considered a demigod (but is rather more a demagogue), it is reassuring to find here that her comments are more accurately assessed.
That’s rather hurtful and unfair, Jilly. I hurled no insults.
ME, this is what you said to him: “So says the little sheep so defensively wrapped in his wolf skin, whose
fruit if the Spirit seems to be perpetual hostility, endless bitterness,
and a propensity to take offense.” How could he hear that as other than insulting? He must have wondered what on earth he said to you to make you that angry.
I doubt ME would admit to anger although it certainly appears to be so to others. It would not surprise me if she were to consider her behavior to be righteous anger. Regardless, I know that ME dislikes disagreement with her comments. She is especially hostile when her logic is not accepted, and when her false statements are pointed out. In short, I know only too well what kind of person I am dealing with.
I meant hurtful and unfair to Rickety, Jilly. He’s the one who needs to receive more grace, to be freed of so much anger, resentment, and bitterness. If he knew grace, he’d be reflecting grace. I am not angry at all, I simply spoke the truth. You have now come along and assigned me malevolent intentions, affirmed Rick’s right to remain in a state of perpetual bitterness, and failed to shine any light on the Apostle Paul’s words. Seriously, we need some guys to start teaching other guys this stuff, because there are a lot of bitter and unforgiven men… Read more »
“I am not angry at all, I simply spoke the truth. You have now come along and assigned me malevolent intentions,”
Wait, is this ME writing to jilly, or OKRickety writing to ME? Looks like it fits equally well both ways.
And along comes Dunsworth to interject her two cents. Here is what I would like to see you two to do. Speak to your brother OKRickety about the need to be more forgiven, about the blessed freedom to be found in setting all that shame and blame down at the foot of the cross, and picking up grace, joy, peace. Speak some words of healing over him. For months,years perhaps, the man has been walking around bitter,angry, unforgiven, and both you and Jilly keep trying to act as if the problem is ME. The problem is not ME. ME could… Read more »
Actually, I think Dunsworth is saying we comment in much the same way, and thus have similar attitudes. Perhaps my attitude and behavior would improve if others were to model the behaviors of Christ for me to see. I’m quite certain that, just on this blog, Dunsworth and Jillybean are from alone in considering you to be a “problem” at times. “Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.” – Mark Twain
ME, I don’t see this bitterness, anger, and hostility in OKR. I’ve reread the thread, and it seemed to me that he was challenging your definition of sin as physical or emotional infirmity, which struck me as a perfectly reasonable thing for him to do. It is news to me that epilepsy or migraines are sins. But the point isn’t whether he is right or wrong, or whether you are. Why did his disagreement cause you to call him a sheep in wolf’s clothing, or tell him he is defective in other ways? Can you truly believe that speaking unkindly… Read more »
“You are so gentle in dealing with people on your own site; why can’t you use that grace and gentleness here?”
Perhaps she is concerned with her reputation, but only in certain times and places?
Do you ever drop your cynicism? Set down your distrust? Stop obsessing over how awful I allegedly am? I am not concerned about my so called reputation one wit, nor do I have any deep, dark secrets to reveal. The games you people play are foolish and kind of silly. I said what I meant and I meant what I said, “Speak to your brother OKRickety about the need to be more forgiven, about the blessed freedom to be found in setting all that shame and blame down at the foot of the cross, and picking up grace, joy, peace.”… Read more »
Based on your comments here and elsewhere, I have adequate Biblical reason to distrust you. It is not the result of hearsay allegation, but my own experience of your actual comments that is the basis. When I, and others, have pointed out serious problems with your comments, I have never seen you “receive” these criticisms, but only reject them, whether directly or indirectly by changing the subject or simply not answering. For example, your completely mistaken definition of grace. I think I have said this before, but I will say it again. I think you are quite intelligent and you… Read more »
“Based on your comments here and elsewhere, I have adequate Biblical reason to distrust you.” Why in the world would you trust me? You’re supposed to be trusting in the Lord. “For example, your completely mistaken definition of grace..” Well,one reason why I have begged you to re-examine your understanding of grace is because you strike me as someone who has received very little grace, hence your chronic obsession with my alleged character flaws. Or not. You of course, are free to continue as you are. I would find that rather miserable, but what you chose to do is really… Read more »
“Meanwhile, I’m busy rejoicing in the Lord, enjoying marriage, and celebrating grace. :) ”
While trampling on the 9th Commandment and not dealing with your public sins? Have you even once asked forgiveness for making a false claim?
You really need to stop with the faux-pious discrediting games. Nobody’s fooled.
Wow, Dunsworth. Is that really what you believe my faith in Jesus Christ to be, some kind of faux-pious game? Do you think the healing Jesus Christ offers us is some kind of joke?
I have no desire and no need to discredit anyone. People always reveal what ails them in their own words. We all have things that ail us. It’s not even about discrediting anyone,it simply is what it is.
” People always reveal what ails them in their own words. We all have things that ail us. “Do you suppose that you are somehow an exception? You certainly act as if you think you are.
“Do you suppose that you are somehow an exception? You certainly act as if you think you are.”
Not at all! The thing is, I’m usually so darn perky and full of joy it often annoys the crap out of people.
Anger, bitterness, resentment are so rarely my issue, because of grace, all grace. Remember Luke 7:47, “Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little?”
“to be freed of so much anger, resentment, and bitterness.”
Projection much?
“Well, I think you are reversing things and missing the beauty of Paul’s words. Grace is not a desire to sin, it is a desire to sin no more.” I am not reversing things! Grace is not a “desire to sin no more”. Grace is defined as “(in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.”. In other words, grace is God’s choice to provide forgiveness of sins and thus salvation. Granted, the forgiven person should no longer desire to sin, but that is not grace but… Read more »
“A young girl accused her brother of molesting her, and he was arrested, tried and convicted, and is now in the penitentiary. He has been there for two years now. His sister was just recently converted, and as a result recently confessed that her accusations against her brother had been false.” May I ask how many men we believe are falsely convicted of rape in a court of law, sans all evidence? Do we have any statistics? There is a narrative that suggests women are going about falsely accusing men of rape all the time,and that men have no defense… Read more »
“May I ask how many men we believe are falsely convicted of rape in a court of law….?”
More than zero.
“More than zero.”
A most unsatisfactory answer. We know the number of men who actually rape is greater than zero. Shall we now extrapolate that all men are rapists?
Why is it unsatisfactory? Do you claim it *is* zero? Or do you just not care?
I care. This very post is called, “When Truth Is Your Friend.”
So, is it true that so many women lie about rape, that our justice system convicts so many men without evidence,that we must be very careful about who we believe, even in light of a conviction?
Or is it true that we have subscribed to a false narrative and now are unjustly burdening victims with a label that suggests they are lying, guilty until they are proven innocent?
We must always be very careful about who we believe in any situation where a potentially life-destroying accusation of any kind is made. That does not mean that we believe that most people who accuse are liars; it means we believe that it is really, really important not to play games with people’s lives, whether accusing apparent victim or accused apparently perp.
I am not interested in your opinion regarding what “we must do,” I am interested in the actual facts that support the narrative.
Do we have statistics that reveal the number of lives that have been ruined by women LYING about rape, followed by a conviction in the legal system, sans any evidence?
Are you suggesting that the facts called “statistics” should be given more weight than the facts called “what actually happened in case X”?
Like my case below? Yes! my case is way better than bogus stats!
I am asking for someone provide evidence, statistics, facts, that show women lie about rape often enough that it justifies our perception that not only do women lie about rape with some frequency, but the system actually convicts men without evidence.
That is the narrative Pastor Wilson has put forth.
What will statistics prove? As someone else said, the answer is non-zero. So if it happens ever (and why would that be a shock to anyone?) or even if it could happen ever (which of course it could), then it’s something we need to guard against.
Why does it matter? Because it influences our perceptions and impacts how we respond to rape victims. We don’t respond that way to any other crime victim. Someone doesn’t show up and report that their house was robbed and we promptly declare, “Well, I know of a whole lot of false allegations and some thieves have had their convictions over turned, so let me talk to the guy who robbed your house so I can make sure you aren’t just lying.” We do that to victims of rape constantly. Why? Because we believe in a false narrative that suggests women… Read more »
People make all sorts of false crime reports to the police. It’s a very basic issue in law enforcement to determine whether or not a crime has actually been committed. This isn’t some special standard applied to rape victims…it’s applied to everyone, and rape victims shouldn’t be excluded. This doesn’t mean anyone should go into any crime situation geared up to suspect a false accusation, but neither should anyone go in believing that a false accusation is out of the question.
“This isn’t some special standard applied to rape victims….” But there already is a special standard being applied to rape victims. It is a standard that suggests they are lying, falsely accusing men, and likely to blame for their own abuse, if it even happened at all. But we aren’t talking about the police at all here, are we? We aren’t talking about judgment,conviction or the legal system. We’re talking about a Pastor entrusted with someone’s care. So does he look at her and see his Pastor friend dealing with the alleged false conviction? Does he look at her and… Read more »
” It is a standard that suggests they are lying, falsely accusing men, and likely to blame for their own abuse, if it even happened at all.” This is false. The operating assumption in any court of law, for any crime, given human nature, is not that they are lying, but that they might be lying. When Pastor Wilson and others were suggesting that people can lie, and that fact should be taken into account, you’re twisting that into “you say they must be lying” – which is entirely your own statement. No one else has said that, and it’s… Read more »
“The operating assumption in any court of law,….”
We are speaking of a Pastor here,and the church as a body, not a court of law.
We are not a court of law, it is not our job to investigate, collect evidence, and play judge and jury too.
It is not our job to put the victim on trial, but that is what our attitudes are revealing.
In order to minister effectively, one must know what actually happened: imagine a pastor talking to a girl who’s been abused and saying “Now it’s not my job to know what happened, so don’t tell me anything: just feel spiritually supported and believed in that matter which I’m not allowed to ask about”. So, actually, a pastor must investigate in order to do his job. Seeking out the truth isn’t acting as a judge and jury: it’s being a responsible human being. Again, the mischaracterizations don’t help your case. The reason I brought up a court of law is because… Read more »
“Now it’s not my job to know what happened, so don’t tell me anything: just feel spiritually supported and believed in that matter which I’m not allowed to ask about”. In many ways that is exactly what we are called to do as Christians. If someone is struggling in their marriage, I know they need to be spiritually supported and believed. I really do not need all the details to come to that conclusion. I do not need to judge,weigh, and measure to determine whether their suffering is valid or self-inflicted or justified or that their spouse is a terrible… Read more »
Two more mischaracterizations: First: Pastors are not ordinary Christians: they are called to give account for our souls. This entails a certain amount of involvement in people’s spiritual lives that not all Christians should have. You’re not called to minister to that marriage the same way the pastor is: you don’t need to know, but he does. Second: I never advocated setting out to prove people’s sinful nature. In fact, I said the opposite: given the divinely revealed reality of human fallenness, it’s the height of irresponsibility to ignore it. You admit that it’s a given: but you’re also advocating… Read more »
“Pastors are not ordinary Christians: they are called to give account for our souls. This entails a certain amount of involvement in people’s spiritual lives that not all Christians should have. You’re not called to minister to that marriage the same way the pastor is: you don’t need to know, but he does.”
You could be quite right about that. I’ll grant that a definite possibility.
When my house was broken into the cops referred to it as a “report of a break-in” until they looked at the evidence.
Should that have bothered me?
If I went to the police and said my husband is trying to poison me, should they believe me without any evidence? I could be a flaming lunatic for all they know to the contrary. Of course they have to investigate, and at least take into account the possibility that it might be a false or delusional report. The FBI says that the incidence of false rape reports is the same as the incidence of false reports of every other type of major crime. Everyone, including the alleged criminal, should be treated with courtesy. But nobody is entitled to be… Read more »
Is the narrative of false rape convictions overblown? Perhaps, but there is little doubt that, even when the charges are dropped or there is no judicial conviction, the accused rapist suffers greatly. On the contrary, there are few, if any, consequences for the one who falsely accuses. For example, Crystal Mangum had no punishment for the false Duke lacrosse accusation, and Tawana Brawley had none for her claims even though it went to a grand jury.However, the media reports provide instant “fame” and attention for the accuser when it occurs, but, when the claims turn out to be false, the… Read more »
Or could have a pretrial ban on publicity as many countries have.
“I am asking for someone provide evidence, statistics, facts,”
So after making dozens (if not hundreds) of unsubstantiated claims yourself (“I don’t need to prove anything and I don’t play ‘linky” games”) you’re putting that burden on someone else?
What can anyone say besides “Wow!”
It’s a case of “Do as I say, not as I do.” One would think ME would recognize her own inconsistency, but, as you surely know, that doesn’t seem to happen.
I’m not sure any one tracks it.
Someone has put together a list of known wrongful convictions (a number of them involving rape, or alleged rape). I offered this information to ME yesterday (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States) and challenged her to acknowledge that such false accusations of rape, and false convictions, do exist. I saw no reply from her yet.
Excellent, I’m glad someone’s tracking it. And I’m not surprised.
Well, ME has responded perhaps a dozen times, to the point where ME is simply kicking a dead horse people refuse to even look at. ME lacks the power and authority to open eyes that are invested in remaining shut. But ME totally gets why the vast majority of kids and adult women refuse to report rape and refuse to turn to their churches for support, forced to carry this burden alone, forced into silence, unable to speak the truth. Of course, with the Lord, one is never really alone. ME would never report a rape. ME worked 20 years… Read more »
Hi ME, I agree that the system is awful, but I don’t see how it can be made friendlier to the victim without damaging the rights of the accused who may be innocent. But, my main question was, what would you do to protect a child rape victim if you will not report a rape to law enforcement?
In some cases, I rather think your eyes are only open to one side of the situation, and you refuse to acknowledge that the other side could be harmed if the allegations are untrue. I expect there are reasons for this behavior. For example, in the case of abuse, you have at least implied that you were abused. If so, it is not surprising that your comments and beliefs would be skewed accordingly.As to seeing the other side of situations, I think others see both sides far better than you realize, but your preconceived notions prevent you from recognizing this.
ME wrote: Well, ME has responded perhaps a dozen times, to the point where ME is simply kicking a dead horse people refuse to even look at. ME lacks the power and authority to open eyes that are invested in remaining shut. In spite of her attempt to change the subject to rape reporting, notice that ME has yet to acknowledge that false accusations, and false convictions, of rape do exist. Until she can acknowledge this, she’s just running away from the point regarding justice and due process that several have tried to make with her. We can’t just side… Read more »
Yes Memi. We have actual experience. See my note to you ___ below.
The actual fact is that if even one person is falsely accused and convicted of any crime, evil has been done.
I don’t have to believe that it is a lot for that to be true. I don’t have to know the number for it to be true. I just have to know the biblical principle that injustice is always wrong, no matter how frequent or rare it is.
It’s interesting that you asked whether we “must be careful” and then claim that you don’t care about the response that someone gives about “what we must do.”
“It’s interesting that you asked whether we “must be careful” and then claim that you don’t care about the response that someone gives about “what we must do.” That is because you are not saying, “we must be careful to make sure victims are not farther abused by our attitudes and biases,” you are saying “we must be careful not to falsely convict men of a crime.” The church’s role however, is to support people spiritually, to help victims find healing, not to engage in a social justice campaign protecting all the allegedly innocent men who are being falsely convicted… Read more »
ME, you’re setting up a false dichotomy. There is no mutual exclusivity between being careful not to falsely convict and being careful to make sure victims are not further abused. What Jane and Doug and I and “A” Dad and everyone else trying to reason with you are saying is that these BOTH can and indeed MUST happen for justice to be done for any and all parties.
“There is no mutual exclusivity between being careful not to falsely convict and being careful to make sure victims are not further abused.” That right there is the false dichotomy. The church is not supposed to be in the business of convicting anyone.That is the job of our courts. Justice is actually not supposed to be the goal of the church, grace is. We are not called to mete out justice, we are supposed to support the wounded and broken and point them towards Christ. From what I am reading it seems as if the wounded and broken are all… Read more »
ME wrote:
Didn’t ME already acknowledge that some men are falsely accused and convicted of rape? If not, here is a list of wrongful convictions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States
ME can easily search that web page for the crime of rape.
Will ME directly acknowledge that some men have been falsely accused and convicted of rape? If ME can’t bring herself to acknowledge this, then it will simply demonstrate a stubborn and wilful ignorance.
ME, you’re the one who brought up false convictions. It’s rather exasperating when you keep changing the subject.
Well actually, Pastor Wilson is the one who brought up a false conviction in his story. In the process of ministering to a victim in his fictional letter, he thought it important to mention false accusations twice, and also the feminist agenda.
And then you brought it up in the comments, but you are not following through on the line of discussion that you started. When you write a specific point, and someone writes a specific response, and you leap to another line of thought, it’s an obstacle to further dialogue. You may not intend it to be, but it has that effect.
My line of thought here is pretty consistent.
“In the process of ministering to a victim in his fictional letter, he thought it important to mention false accusations twice, and also the feminist agenda.”
Is that kind of perception based on actual data and statistics or is it based on urban rumors and myth? In his hypothetical bit of fiction, Wilson suggests the legal system has convicted a man with no evidence at all. Is that a reflection of the truth or is it a cultural narrative based on myth?
ME, I believe that you are, throughout all of your comments, trying to get at that issue, but that’s not the same as consistently following a line of reasoning within the conversation. I wonder if maybe you get flustered when you can’t respond to a specific argument, so you jump back to emotional appeal, unsupported assertion, or changing the topic to some other thread of the conversation. I think most people here honestly want to engage with you, and honestly have sympathy with your concerns, but just get frustrated when you derail the conversation. As I said, that may be… Read more »
“Since this seems to happen over and over with various regulars here, i.e., it’s not an isolated incident, would you be willing to consider whether this is an actual problem on your part..”
No, sorry. “Various regulars here,” is really not a sound recommendation for much of anything. “Various regulars here,” have accused Clay of doing his 30 yr marriage all wrong, and have accused me of being mentally ill.
And yet, earlier, ME said
OK, in that case I will commit to not engaging with you any further. I want to avoid the temptation to respond to you with sinful impatience, and I want to avoid squandering my time on trying to reason with someone who has declared that she does not want to be better able to reason.
ME, (this name was chosen to make people feel schizophrenic, right?) What do you make of this? ESV 1 Corinthians 6:1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? How does this relate to what you are trying to say? Also, I haven’t interpreted the passage yet, I am just wondering how it fits within your… Read more »
Schizophrenia is a tragic and disabling perception problem having nothing to do with multiple personalties. I am afflicted with neither.
As to 1 Corinthians 6:1, anyone who would compare the rape of a child to “a trivial matter” is unlikely to impress me with their powers of discernment. In fact, the church’s long history of being unable to judge child rape as NOT trivial, does speak to why so many are fleeing the church when they should be running towards it.
So, even when a person prefaces their question by saying that they are not offering commentary but are wondering what you think about a passage, you still make all sorts of assumptions about intent and discernment?
You had said the church was not about judgement, I wondered if you meant “at all,” or if you meant “just in regards to this issue it is not to try to judge anything at all,” or something else. That is why I asked a question and did not make a statement.
In the same vein as Bibcnsl’s question to you about 1 Cor. 6, how do you fit Matthew 18:15-17 into your philosophy of the church and justice? For that matter, what about the numerous verses opposing bearing false witness? Again, where is the support for your claims about the narrative of false rape accusations?
Surely Jane and you and Doug and “A” dad realize that trying to reason with ME is nearly impossible. But I find it very difficult to accept that, instead thinking that this time will be different and she will respond to reason. This is even more difficult to avoid because I consider ME to be reasonably intelligent and well-intended. However, my experience quickly suggests that I should resign myself to accepting the futility of my effort. I may be a slow learner but hope springs eternal.
OK, each of us has baggage that we carry and each of us wears glasses because of our lives. ME has a particular thorn jabbed into her on this subject.
True, but I hope for myself that I can at least admit there is possible validity to other positions when someone disagrees with me.I am aware of other subjects that ME is especially sensitive to.
ME doesn’t need an apologist or the sensitivity police. She’d dug her own grave in these areas–constantly making allegations (often outright lies) about others and refusing to substantiate them. It makes no difference what “thorn” she has….quite a few of us have been dealt numerous thorns.
My point was to OK because I don’t think that he understands why ME gets so upset over rape and abuse. I’m not being the sensitivity police, but rather keying a new individual into the flow.
I won’t claim to understand but I will suppose that either she herself has been raped or abused, some dear to her have been raped or abused, or she has worked extensively with those who have been raped or abused.Regardless, here’s the deal: None of these excuse her one-sided, over-the-top insistence that the victim must be the full and total focus of care, that the victim must be telling the truth, and that the abuser or accused has no rights or recourse.These are not the only topics that ME gets very upset about. For some of them, I think it… Read more »
What Dunsworth said.
Dunsworth said nothing that sheds any light on my question.
Open your eyes.
Tell me why the narrative is true.
I didn’t say there was a narrative, you did. I do know the same system that convicts men has overturned convictions on evidence on more than one occasion. I doubt every wrongful conviction is eventually overturned.
There is a narrative. In Pastor Wilson’s tale he says, “A young girl accused her brother of molesting her, and he was arrested, tried and convicted, and is now in the penitentiary. He has been there for two years now.” I said, “May I ask how many men we believe are falsely convicted of rape in a court of law, sans all evidence?” Because we have just made an assumption. We have assumed that women lie with some frequency and that the legal system convicts men in the absence of any evidence at all. And that has become the entire… Read more »
You would extrapolate to such a narrative based on that statement from Wilson? I wouldn’t. I do know it happens that some men commit rape. Sometimes they get away with it. It has happened that men were falsely accused of rape. Sometimes men are wrongly convicted of rape.
None of the above is okay with me.
Yes, the victim needs someone who will believe them. My friends and family would believe me–because they know I am generally a truthful and stable person. My therapist would act as if she believed me, and she probably would. Those people would be my source of emotional support. But I have no right to expect that validation from law enforcement or the justice system. But suppose the man I accuse is a member of my parish. If I say the pastor has a duty to believe me, what about his duty to believe the man who swears he is innocent… Read more »
I’d say that the man innocent of the allegations against him is closer to being like Jesus — being called a glutton and a drunkard — than the woman that ME would presumably side with.
Isn’t your church supposed to be your friends and family? What if a kid came up to you and said they were being raped? Are you going to say, “Sorry kid, I must be fair and not rush to judge the man who raped you?” We’re speaking of child sexual abuse here, Jilly. Can you at least stand up for the fact that we need to be protecting kids first and people’s reputations second? That kid needs to be heard and validated,not lectured about false allegations! The church has a long history of epically failing in that area. Could you… Read more »
ME, your point is well taken for protecting children. From my perspective, everyone agrees that the child’s story will be listened to. Yes, churches have learned.
There is lots of cross talk on this thread that says almost the same thing but not exactly the same thing along with plenty of talk that both sides of the story need to be heard and that everyone requires protection to get the true story out. It really appears that everyone is hammering the same nail, but with different styles of hammers.
“Can you at least stand up for the fact that we need to be protecting kids first and people’s reputations second? “I think this is what concerns me most about this topic (and similar ones). The presumption seems to be that you can only choose one of these options. Why can’t one choose to do both?It is not necessary to broadcast the allegations wholesale to the entire church, community, and world before any reasonable doubts have been removed. And, yes, there are valid reasons to consider that allegations might be false. It is also vitally important to protect a child… Read more »
Well, ME, we weren’t actually talking about children in this context. We were talking about two adults, one of whom claims to have been raped. If any child told me he or she was being raped, I would ask for details and call the abuse hotline. This is what I did as a mandated reporter; that is what I would do now that I am an ordinary person. I would hope that the charge could be investigated without harming the reputations of the possibly innocent, but if not, the charge would need to be investigated nonetheless. I would not validate… Read more »
A State of Idaho government symposium put the rate of false allegations at between 2 and 10 percent, which is pretty much what other research has said. https://icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf.
Has anyone brought up Duke Lacrosse or Rolling Stone’s Jackie? What about Mattress Girl? How about Title IX and how that affects rape allegation investigations and “convictions,” by colleges, ruining the lives of college-aged men who have limited legal recourse against university faculty zealous for supposed justice?
***Edited because Disqus COMPLETELY screwed up my comment.
http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/09/female-student-admits-to-incredible-lie
No conviction, but the accuser’s victim was dropped from his collegiate football team because of the false accusation.
But this one is the real kicker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cHZ8l44Y2U
Well you did write Duke Lacro$$e, mattre$$ girl, and title 11 in a single comment. That almost certainly will set off disqus’ censoring algorithms.
:)
No kidding! He’s probably on a watch list now!
I had this vague feeling I ought to know who mattre$$ girl is, but I’m certainly not typing it into the search bar on the Snowflake’s laptop!
Snowflake passed her interview and is set to go! One small suitcase, and–gasp–a pair of hiking boots. She has not worn flat shoes since she drove the Casey Junior train at Disneyland. The Snowflake does not hike. She looks meltingly at young men who offer to carry her.
I had a Jewish friend tell me that hiking in the desert is common for Jewish kids visiting Israel. Snowy should keep her boots close by. Sometimes desert animals make off with shoes and boots overnight! ????
I lived in LA during the McMartin Preschool trials in which expert witnesses swore that children could never be less than truthful about sexual abuse. Credulous adults believed stories about underground dungeons, animal sacrifices, and children being made to drink blood in Satanic ceremonies. The McMartin people were lucky in that, while their lives were ruined, they were finally acquitted after the most expensive trial in U.S. history. Questioning any element of the stories was tantamount to not caring about the sexual abuse of toddlers. There are still people today who obsess about looking for the underground tunnels rather than… Read more »
The McMartin people were lucky in that, while their lives were ruined, they were finally acquitted after the most expensive trial in U.S. history. Sorry, Jilly, but that is small consolation to those on the receiving end of false allegations of this nature. I’d say ask people like Jay Cheshire, but, as they say, the dead tell no tales. I lived in LA during the McMartin Preschool trials in which expert witnesses swore that children could never be less than truthful about sexual abuse. And that right there is one reason why sociology is, at best, not science; and, at… Read more »
I know. What was done to them was terrible, and I hope they sued the state for damages. I only meant “lucky” in the sense that, in other similar criminal trials, innocent people actually went to prison. There was very serious misconduct in that case. The prosecution put a known serial perjurer on the stand to falsely swear to an admission from one of the accused. His reward was immunity from prosecution for previous perjuries. An ABC reporter covering the case was dating the social worker who interviewed the children. The LA Times editor in charge of coverage got engaged… Read more »
Then it’s not only the “expert witnesses” that should be publicly drawn and quartered, but everyone involved with the prosecution: The prosecuting attorney, the social worker, and the media people involved.
ESPECIALLY the media people. They have become an enemy to the American populace.
fp wrote:
While easy to reject the premise that a particular class of humans cannot lie, regarding mainstream media, one is tempted to accept the premise that a certain class of humans cannot do anything but lie.
Whether certain media life-forms can be classified as human is still up for debate.
Hey Jilly, here in Boston, our county DA’s office, went out to LA to “learn” about the McMartin case. Then DA Scott Harshbarger and ADA Lawrence Hardoon falsely prosecuted the Amirault family, in the infamous Fells Acers day care case. Harshbarger put an innocent granny and her two kids in jail, based on interviews from his quack “expert” Susan J. Kelly, a nurse, who lacked the professional discipline to be objective. Granny Amirault died in prison. Her two kids were eventually released. Here is the present day kicker. What Massachusetts based “abuse” charlatan is endorsed by disgraced DA / AG,… Read more »
And let’s not forget Martha Coakley, who successfully campaigned to keep Gerald Amirault in prison for another three years simply to further her political ambitions.
Coakley was among those who ran for Ted Kennedy’s seat upon his untimely (as in: shoulda happened sooner) demise in 2010.
Coakley is yet another hack who should be publicly drawn and quartered.
Fp, are you here in Mass. too?
No, but I follow politics, and the Fells Acres Day School case gained national notoriety when the execrable Martha Coakley decided to run for the equally execrable Ted Kennedy’s seat. On a tangential note, Massachusetts seems to be ground zero for national politics and events, from the original “shot heard ’round the world” which set off the American Revolution and John Adams’ subsequent defense of the British soldiers involved in that incident, to Governor Romney’s healthcare and homosexual marriage debacles, on which our current healthcare and marriage nightmares are based. If Romney had been elected President, I’m convinced he would… Read more »
Well, pray for the church based false accusation case I am involved in. In principle, it is the same as the fells acres case, i.e. The government being duped by junk “experts” to make bad policy , grants and law. I have asked the DOJ to look into the Judicial misfeasance in my case. If they do, it could clear the entire SJC bench!????
Roger that, “A” dad.
I still wonder how they got ordinary people to believe this stuff.
Almost every person has an initial emotional reaction to issues like rape, “abuse”, incest, “battery”, etc. predators and politicians gin up those emotions to suit their sanctimonies.????
Well Memi, here is the published ruling in my case! Rape was not involved, though I did write The Board of a “christian” abuse ministry that Lundy Bancroft was a cult founder, and they were disobedient to use his material ! ; -) The plaintiff, the founder of the “ministry” lied to the court and said I threatened and “harassed” her individually, for saying so. The actual evidence, my letters, proved that she lied. The Judge that she lied to, “dismissed” her ungodly law suit, yet I still cannot get the “abuse” record she caused by her perjury expunged, because… Read more »
I believe you, A-dad, and I am totally on your team. I have seen what you speak of go down.
So Memi, you know that I don’t think I ever tell you what to do, at a minimum because I dislike being told what to do, by people who have no particular authority over me. I any case, our friends here, Lady Dunsworth, Valerie and John, are on the same team too. If our personal passions favor one side or the other of the false accusation issue, I am willing to say that all of us have some understanding of Wilson’s point here, that Christ represents Himself in these issues, and His will and His way are above all sides.… Read more »
You’re awesome, A-dad. Blessed be the peace keepers,indeed. :)
I bear no ill will towards Pastor Wilson, I assure you. I actually despise the gender wars and what they have done to actual victims and to families. I’m not even mad about the bias I am seeing. I’ve seen the obvious bias from the other side, too.
The truth matters, however. We must always challenge our own cultural biases and narratives, to ask if they are true. Is this thing true or have my perceptions been shaped by a cultural narrative that is built on sand?
“May I ask how many men we believe are falsely convicted of rape in a court of law, sans all evidence? Do we have any statistics?”As Jillybean stated elsewhere in this thread, somewhere between 2% and 10% of rape allegations are determined to be false. See False Allegations of Sexual AssaultDo you have any statistics on how many people support the “narrative” that women are “falsely accusing men of rape all the time, ….”?
I didn’t ask about false allegations, I asked about false convictions.
A false allegation means there was not enough evidence for a court case, so justice prevailed.
A false conviction implies men are being sent to prison in the absence of any evidence.
Tell that to male college students.
College students should perhaps keep their knees together and their pants zipped. ;)
Just like those Duke Lacrosse boys did.
So, the Duke boys could of avoided the whole thing by not exploiting a wounded and broken woman and hiring her as a stripper, where she was paraded about naked as a commodity for their own personal sexual entertainment.
Please,let’s not assign perpetual virtue to alleged victimhood. That is precisely what feminism does.
Where did I assign virtue to them? And what’s with this “alleged” victimhood? Remind me again why Mike Nifong was disbarred.
In ME’s world a woman is to be believed and assigned victim status without evidence. But when a man PROVES that a woman has falsely accused him, he is only an “alleged” victim.
Do accusations need evidence? /sarcasm
This works both ways because, just as logically, the strippers could have avoided the whole thing by not exploiting those broken and wounded Duke boys by agreeing to parade about naked for their own financial advantage. Then one of the strippers compounded her sin by choosing to falsely claim that she was raped.Rather than acknowledging her failure and its support for considering the possibility that a rape claim might be false, you instead try to deflect the reader to the failure of the men involved. That’s exactly the type of behavior I have come to expect of you.For anyone interested… Read more »
Besides, Boss Hogg is the real bad guy, not the Duke boys! ????
(Somebody has to disseminate the really bad jokes!)
They should not have been charged with a crime before the evidence had been thoroughly examined and the complainant’s credibility assessed. But it is very hard for me to feel much sympathy with them. Apart from the immorality of hiring a stripper, where was their common sense?
On the other hand, I have a lot of sympathy for their parents who undoubtedly sent their sons to Duke hoping for a different kind of education
What they did was stupid and sinful, but not illegal. But they were falsely accused of things much worse. And many other false accusers, those who believed the girl without any evidence, haven’t offered as much as an apology.
Joe Alleva is currently the AD at LSU, making around $1 million per year.
Also see Wesley Sims’ comment below. Duke Lacrosse is not a wholly unique situation
Who is he??
He was the AD at Duke who threw the boys and their coach under the bus. He believed the girl without evidence and fired the coach because the coach wanted to see evidence before coming to a conclusion about how the boys should be punished.
That’s really awful.
And it would be nice if college regulations were even slightly drawn up with this objective in mind.
You mean moral codes? Like those (shudder) Christian colleges have?
It would save a lot of heartache. In my student days at a public university, you at least had to make some effort to get into trouble.
Not that I expect you to consider anyone else’s perspective to be possibly valid, but the following two articles (one at Jezebel The Mythical History of the False Rape and the other at Slate False Rape Accusations) are quite interesting and relevant to your persistent comments about the “narrative”.
Reading this post and these comments I can’t help noticing something very interesting. There are three likely incest scenarios: 1) A child is abused by a relative, reports the crime and is believed. 2) A child falsely reports abuse and is believed leading to false charges. 3) A child is abused by a relative, reports the crime and is not believed. According to statistics 2 to 10% of reports are false possibly leading to wrongful imprisonment. Outrage ensues! 2 to 10%! What could be worse than that? According to statistics probably 60% (and here it is hard not to emphasize… Read more »
JL, have you heard the saying “You can’t say everything about anything or you’ll end up saying nothing”? There’s no need to assume that, because these letters haven’t addressed that particular aspect of the issue, everyone’s unaware of it or lacks proper feeling about it. In making up a scenario, Pastor Wilson obviously had to make up some details. And the details that would work in this case were about a girl who was believed (although I can’t remember the details of her mother’s involvement…she might have denied or covered up). As for why be in communication with the father… Read more »
I haven’t heard it, but it is a keeper! My point was not that we must cover everything. In fact I left out a fourth category, namely those children who are abused and never report it. Probably this is the most common. My point is that we must resist the urge to counter an imbalance by creating a new one. When we see that the prevailing culture has declared all women victims, our comeback shouldn’t be to try to prove that the real victims are falsely accused men. Is it necessary to counter this girl’s story with a story of… Read more »
I think that sometimes Doug tweaks the narrative to cover some of the issues that commenters have raised about previous posts. I’m not sure he would have raised the spectre of the lying girl-falsely accused brother if he were writing to an actual victim; at least, I hope not, because it struck a weird note. I think the point he wanted to make was: I’m not on your side because I am your paid counselor or a feminist wanting to smash the patriarchy; I am on your side because I know you are telling the truth. Or even, I take… Read more »
Thank you, Jilly. That’s why I said I know it’s fiction most of the time! This is interesting. I find I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that a pastor is ministering to a victim of a crime but isn’t on anybody’s side, which is what he says in the blog post. He’s right, of course. I wonder how much my difficulty comes from social indoctrination and how much of it stems from identifying with the girl (not because I’m a victim of abuse but because of my desire to protect children like her). How much must the… Read more »
” I find I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that a pastor is ministering to a victim of a crime but isn’t on anybody’s side,….”We have a tendency to take sides and place blame. Instead I think Wilson’s approach (“When I am counseling someone, as a minister it is my task to represent Christ in the situation, as best I can, and not represent one party or the other.”) of representing Christ is the ideal that we Christians, not just ministers, should be striving for.It is my aim to do this, and I recollect telling a church… Read more »
I agree. I appreciate the opportunity to see that tendency in myself. Much easier to see it in others!
Thank you, OKRickety.
I guess being “on someone’s side” could communicate a variety of things in this context. 1) I am for you and against them 2) I am seeking to minister to you and against what they did to you 3) I will unconditionally affirm everything you that think/feel/desire and am not bound by a higher authority to ask you to think/feel/do hard things 4) I agree with the guilty verdict 5) I will join you in despising this person Because that phrase can be taken in so many ways, it might be better just to use a less loaded phrase in… Read more »
Thank you, Bibcnsl. That’s very helpful.
There’s also got to be a strong line between acknowledging that wrong was done but avoiding the temptation to pity. It’s really hard to think about this without bringing modern psychology and mores into it.
I so appreciate this conversation and this whole area of Biblical counseling because I can see great application in interpersonal relationships as well. Can you point me to some resources to study further?
You’re welcome. Probably the best and most comprehensive resource out there is the Journal of Biblical Counseling. If a person can afford to invest $70, then there really is no better resource in my opinion. https://www.ccef.org/?s=jbc+archive&pt= Purchasing the archive allows you the option to search virtually any counseling/interpersonal issue and have access to a variety of articles which will address the topic from the perspective of someone looking to minister to someone else. These are well researched and very practical. Searching the website (www.ccef.org) will give you a good idea of the range of issues covered and available in the… Read more »
Thank you very much, Bibcnsl. I will look at those. Learning to change my perceptions since becoming a Christian has been exciting but also challenging . God surely has changed my heart, but my intellect is lagging a bit and still tends to view life partly through my secular past. I’m attending a CREC church, and I find that my understanding of how to live as a Christian is different from the other congregants. They have many more years collective experience and Bible study, so I am sure they are much closer to the truth than I, but I haven’t… Read more »
Wouldn’t it be nice if our minds could be instantaneously renewed in all areas?
I’m sure those resources will help!
The good news is that we can regain a lot of lost ground quickly.
I think that was a very wise counselor. I always know I have found a good one for me when he or she tells me early on “You don’t have to be interesting, you don’t have to amuse me, and you’re not here to make me laugh.” Not that I stop trying, of course!
Reminds me of the saying “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”