A common definition of hypocrisy is to understand it as saying one thing and failing to live up to that standard. While such personal inconsistency is not a good thing, the kind of hypocrisy that Scripture so fiercely denounces occupies another level. High hypocrisy, defined biblically, occurs when you accuse, condemn or assault others for things that you yourself do. The great problem comes when the same sin or worse is being committed by someone who sets himself up as a judge or moral arbiter.
A man who fails to reach a standard he has set for himself to achieve may actually be far advanced in his sanctification. A man who readily condemns another man for failing to do just what he fails to do is a hypocrite. The tell is the accusation. The tell is the diabolical part, the pointing finger. When two men fall, they may each help each other up. But when one man assaults the other for falling, you know something else is up, something else is going on.
And by this standard, America is a hypocrite nation par excellence. No one does sanctimonious self-righteousness like we do, and no one is more fiercely intolerant of the moral failings of others, or of previous generations than we are. But the first lesson for such moralistic people is the fundamental lesson provided by a polished mirror.
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again” (Matt. 7:1–2).
The understanding you show is the understanding you will receive. The excuses you dismiss will be the same as the ignored excuses you offer. The judgments you render will be the judgments that are rendered unto you. The condemnations that pass so easily over your lips will be the same condemnations that are thrown back into your teeth.
No nation is more concerned about righteous behavior upstream and downstream from our consumer choices than we are. Did this chicken on my plate have a happy life or a sad life? Did these coffee beans in my cup come from a fair trade network or not? Are these towels in my hotel room going to wreck things for the koala bear if I have them washed every day? Were any animals harmed in the making of this film? What will double cupping at Starbucks do to the rainforest? We are so finical about the impact of our individual choices on the vast web of our chimerical righteousness — but Planned Parenthood could be using these baby parts for lampshades, and we would still have an uphill fight to get them defunded. Why? Because we are nation run by depraved perverts, that’s why.
Our overparticular behavior on such matters is like the captain of a slave ship running the Middle Passage while keeping an appropriate array of recycling bins on deck so that he can do his part for the polar bear.
So don’t think this sin of ours can be “walked back” slightly. Don’t think we can dab around the edges of the wound, saying peace, peace, when peace is nowhere in sight. Culture is upstream from politics, and religion is upstream from culture. And these pools downstream — that we are being forced to look at now — are as fetid as they are because the stream is that way also, and the stream is that way because our water first comes out of the ground at the very center of the grove of the Ashtaroth. So there is no way out of this hard-heartedness unless and until God breaks our hearts, and gives us the gift of repentance — a gift we in no way deserve.
But in the meantime, spare me the platitudes that wonder why German Christians didn’t say or do more in their opposition to Hitler if you live in a city that ships thousands of baby parts in coolers off to the manufacturers of who knows what.
And please, lighten up with the lectures about America’s original sin of slavery and racism when you live in a city with a Planned Parenthood chapter that has dismembered thousands of little, black children. They are quite willing to chop them up into salable portions, but would never, ever dream of calling any of them pickaninies. They are too fastidious for that, for though pickaninny was originally Portuguese and was a term of affection, it is often offensive to modern ears. And that is the ultimate bar of justice, is it not? Modern ears are so wise, so sagacious. And they are very scrupulous about such things. They wish to give no verbal offense to that people group they are actively engaged in eradicating. More black children are chopped into pieces in New York City than are born in New York City. Such an enlightened, progressive city! So far ahead of fly-over country. Fools and blind!
So if you felt a little tell-tale exquisite thrill of self-righteous pleasure when the Confederate flag came down in South Carolina, then congratulations. You are the problem. Let us be fierce in our denunciation of the compromises made by Christians of another era, three centuries back, while full of nuanced understanding about the political challenges that confront us. Some of their compromises were wise, and some were evil. The same goes for us. But if you are the kind of person who thinks that all of theirs were evil, and all of ours are wise, then you are just the kind of person that this controversy strips naked. God sometimes gives us controversies like this as power washers to take all the whitewash off the tombs. How does it feel when those very hard condemnations hit your teeth? Do you still have a warm spot in your heart for the American flag, despite our thoroughly documented savagery and barbarism? Watch the fourth video, just released today, and listen for that appalling comment at the end — “And another boy!”
In short, if you don’t know how to weigh with equal weights and measures, then you shouldn’t be weighing anything at all.
Think about this. Even after the revelations contained in these videos, Planned Parenthood is still operating. A bill to defund PP may not get the 60 votes necessary in the Senate, and it may not get to that level because half the country remains invested in continuing with their ghoulish best practices. Because of that, the politics are challenging. So this returns us to an earlier point — have you ever condemned a previous generation of Christians for failing to “do more,” when their reason for not doing more was that their politics were challenging?
As noted above, the Center for Medical Progress just released the fourth video today, breaking their pattern of one a week. That video is below, and they may have picked up their pace in response to this legal action taken against them.
And while you are meditating on these things, please note that @AbbyJohnson, former PlannedParenthood director, says that the Houston chapter made 120K per month with this traffic.
120K per month. For one city. Planned Parenthood says that they make no money off this traffic — so all of that must be for shipping and handling. Even if it were not a damned lie, that hardly makes it any better. And as Nancy just mentioned to me, do you think that an organization that markets baby body parts would scruple over telling lies about it?
What to do? The first Republican debate is next week, and the moderators are Bret Baier, Megyn Kelly, and Chris Wallace. I have suggested before that we nominate a question for that debate via Twitter.
“I would like to encourage everyone to use the following Twitter handles to nominate a question that we would love to see asked at that debate — so ask @BretBaier, @megynkelly and @FoxNewsSunday. Here is the question:
“If elected prez, would you consider the Medal of Freedom for David Daleiden, the man behind the Planned Parenthood videos?”
Someone thought the question was kind of out there, and I actually agree. That is why it should be asked. Every last Republican up there is going to say that PP should be defunded. Some of them will be sincere in that, but it will be easy for all of them to say. This is a question that will be hard to say yes to, and impossible to say no to, and that is why it should be asked.
Daleiden needs to tone the next one down or people will start tuning out as a defense mechanism. The one afterwards can be as gruesome as can be, but the next one needs to be not as bad as the third and fourth. Human psychology.
On the other hand, the next one (or four or ten) could all be so “progressively” more gruesome that we begin screaming (literally as well as politically) “MAKE IT STOP!!” These videos are nightmares from the 9th level of Hell. They should be wielded as industrial-sized 2x4s against Liberal heads everywhere. At some point, the squishiest of them will yield, beaten down at last by their own depraved desires to the point where they cry out for mercy, both from those who beat them and from a Most Righteous God. Only the most stolid will continue to resist; these will… Read more »
Yet it was the increasing American body count and close press coverage of the conflict that contributed the to change in American opinion against the war in Vietnam. The content of these videos are gruesome and disgusting, but I will not shy away from watching, and I pray that the impact becomes overwhelming for those who have previously sat inactive on the sidelines, compelling them to do something. It has for me, and I repent of having done little before. Going back to Pastor Wilson’s Hashtag post, what company is first up for the 7 day blitz? I really want… Read more »
True. The press has continued since that day to cover all our wars in like fashion. And that is why we can’t accidentally kill a civilian, bomb the wrong building, kick a mangy dog, or even win a war anymore. The press keeps such horrible things in front of our eyes day in and day out, reminding us of the atrocities. Just think what the national reaction would be if these videos (especially certain segments) were played on every evening news show on every network and cable news channel…every day…with disturbed looks on the talking heads that such things are… Read more »
I heartily agree. Outlaw this practice. Destroy its foundations so that it cannot be rebuilt. Dismember and dispose of the institutions that practice it, leaving nothing left from which it can rear its beastly heads.
…rip them up like little black baby parts strewn on the streets of the Great Babylon, New York City.
;-)
The United Way is first up. The website to coordinate these blitzes is http://www.endpp.com/#!blog/owtua
Thank you. This will be first tweet ever (not into social media, but maybe I have to be now).
Mark
Same reason why these workers engage in dark humor. Defense mechanism. But there is no defense.
Now that we the USA know of this, and realize that we have done things that some of our nastier despotic regimes throughout history *might* blanch at, we have a choice as a nation: Repent and stop this atrocity (among the others we have committed) from within and beg God’s mercy, or God might just send someone else to end it.
Conserbatives_conserve_little said: “Daleiden needs to tone the next one down or people will start tuning out as a defense mechanism.” I respectfully disagree. Once I recognized the pattern that each successive video was more graphic than the last, I started to anticipate the next ones, because now I wanted to know what depravity Planned Barrenhood had concocted that could top the previous one. Call it the pull of the old nature, if you will, but don’t underestimate what my high-school English teacher called the “fascination of the abomination.” It’s not that I relish the gory details–far from it–but the storyline… Read more »
When Egypt was under the judgement of God the plagues did not get better, they got worse. Using that as a pattern would be entirely appropriate.
Doug,
What do you think of pointing Imprecatory Psalms at PP in this case?
I’m asking after the fact as I already posted my version of Psalm 94 here: http://youtu.be/JE5bE8vmJEY
Doug — from my understanding, this supposed Defund PP bill is a joke. Defunds them for only one year and still allows PP to receive funds for abortions they deem as rape or a major health concern. Is there any better ones that are getting a shot?
It is actually Failure Theater. As Doug noted, it has three chances of passing; slim, fat and none. But the Republicans will beat their self-righteous breasts about it.
Isn’t this old news? Aren’t we supposed to be much more outraged by the lion-killing dentist now?
I will never forget the time I took a team of college students to Nicaragua. The organization we traveled with had a photographer along for publicity purposes and I watched as he took many pictures of the starving dogs. I asked him about it and he said, “we get more donations in response to starving animals than we do in response to starving children”.
Which reminds me, I once had the idea to start a campaign around aborting puppy fetuses only to notice that someone had beat me to it…
http://www.puppyabortions.com/Home.html
Great article!
It is time for preachers to step up and take the lead to defend preborn babies!
See http://www.insectman.us/misc/40-40–face-the-facts.htm
I’m sure that the pervert Powers That Be take great amusement at the fact that some of us actually believe that we can put so much as a dent in this whole operation by engaging in time-consuming activism. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING short of the collapse of the current social and political order is going to shut PP’s doors. The Powers That Be have invested billions into them, and their spokesperson (Obama) has actually said “God bless Planned Parenthood.” They’re not going to allow their credibility to be damaged by doing a 180 like that. The State and PP… Read more »
I agree that activism should be viewed with suspicion, but don’t despair so quickly. Our enemies have the upper hand right now, but they’re rapidly expending what little moral authority they had. The day’s coming when people will look for rulers who have solutions to their problems, and it won’t be our modern progressives. It’s not unthinkable that in a few decades, people now involved in abortion, promotion of sodomy, or other aspects of the American death cult will be viewed like former Nazis have been.
I’m sure that day will come, but as I said before, right now they have the guns, and as long as they have the guns this will never change. The only way for them to lose the guns is for the money to run out. I don’t know exactly how that will happen. Will substantial portions of the population simply refuse to pay taxes, or will it come when the U.S. faces it’s Great Default, as Gary North puts it? There’s no way to predict it, but what we can know for certain is that there will be no reforming… Read more »
How many people in the military and US police forces do you think are pro-abortion?
Probably not many, but people who join either organization have to face such cognitive dissonance simply from being in the organization that they’re really not in a place mentally to stand up to the system, one which pays their salary and pension. A conservative who joins the military has to somehow convince himself that there’s nothing weird or wrong about choosing to make Barack Obama his commander-in-chief. The more that doublethink muscle is exercised, the stronger it becomes, and the less likely such a person will be able to think, not to mention act, in a principled way.
Just wanting you to think about who exactly “they” in “they have the guns” refers to.
What our Moloch-worshipping rulers have is not guns, but _legitimacy_, which allows them to command the people with guns.
I agree with that. But of course, if the people with guns stopped serving them, the question of legitimacy would be moot.
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, you aren’t scared of being called a “defeatist troll”? messing up our analogical advances and paths up the cultural reclamation mountain? as you are being called all other kinds of bad hominems? as you are being tossed over the fortress wall? Along with being asked some millenialistic covenantal civil war loaded questions?
(Smiling :) I always like a differing perspective :)
One too many “w”s in that wow for my taste, which is where you lost me… /s
That said, I’m mindful of God’s affection for working victory in the midst of what look like impossible battles.
Was that a bad hominem attack…though of course, I know I said nothing much of substance to be discussed anyway. How many “w”‘s am I allowed? :( I figured “More/Moor the Merrier” wouldn’t mind a little happy variation.
I am, too. I was just thinking of Henry V and Agincourt.
And please, PLEEEEEEASE allow me to say “Wowww…” again but of a different nature because Ben just asked a very pointed question below. I’m not so brave and transparent as he, but I hope to give it a try….
You know, I hadn’t considered it, by my name does seem to obligate me to like the preponderance of “w”s you used. And so I’ve changed my mind, which is quite a feat. Please, sir, more “w”s!
Well, do YOU think any of this is going to make a difference fundamentally?
Another thought: In 1 Samuel 20-31, who had the bigger army? David, or Saul? Who won?
I don’t know if you’re a gambling person, but I’d be willing to bet you (or anyone on here) $1,000 that in 5 years, Planned Parenthood will still be killing babies, selling pieces of them, and taking taxpayer money to fund it. Moreover, I will bet $10,000 that no one in Planned Parenthood will go to jail over any of this.
In 5 years, sure. It’s likely to take longer than that.
How does this strike you? Still mulling it over myself.
http://tinyurl.com/pjoyujb
This reminds me a lot of Gary North’s proposed methodology for Christians coming to the fore after the Y2K collapse. He was trying to build the same kind of culture that would be “handed” power in the chaos.
One can certainly see parallels with Joseph and Daniel in Scripture.
The handed power part doesn’t seem very likely but if everything else is in shambles and your group isn’t then you sort of have some power by default. Really if you can build something and maintain it who cares who holds power over the vandal hordes.
Voddie Baucham reads American history in light of the book of Daniel, no new Jerusalem, no Gog or Magog, just another beast of an empire rising and falling. I think it is wise teaching.
I don’t see anything wrong with it. I’m not crazy about using the word “rule,” but in this context it sounds like a voluntary type of “ruling” that has come about through persuasion.
You have certainly added some interesting reading to my bookmarks. (:
Did you hear the one about the starfish on the beach and the little boy trying to save them? I like the John Reuben version better: And even if one individual is affected it’s monumental with an unusual perspective
That’s beautiful in essence traditional thinking won’t suggest this
Is life really that precious well yes it is
In the words of my beloved Albert Camus, “Perhaps we cannot prevent this world from being a world in which children are tortured. But we can reduce the number of tortured children. And if you don’t help us, who else in the world can help us do this?”
I refer you to Psalm 73. Your complaint on the prosperity of the wicked is nothing new. That said, there is no reason why we shouldn’t continue to seek the end of the injustice that is being perpetrated on these children. We have no reason to acquiesce to wickedness just because the wicked have “all the guns”. So what? The worst that happens is the PTB shoot us. They won’t go away until the money runs out? Sure. This is America. We have the means of running the money out. One of those means is to make the wicked deeds… Read more »
If there was any way to close down PP prior to the collapse, then I think that exerting social pressure on those who support it is the best route. But that’s never going to happen, because the PTB and Planned Parenthood are, as I said before, too intertwined in their interests. Yesterday one of Obama’s spokespersons referred to the video tapings as fear-mongering extremist right-wing propaganda. This shows that the PTB want Planned Parenthood to stay in business indefinitely. And since they have the guns, this is what’s going to happen. The only way for them to lose the guns… Read more »
Yesterday one of Obama’s spokespersons referred to the video tapings as fear-mongering extremist right-wing propaganda. Yes, and? Either way it ends. It ends when the country collapses into ruin, or it ends when the people become so disgusted with the government and the abbatoirs that we shut them down. One “clinic”, one town, one county, one state at a time is fine. If the only effect these videos have is to make it two at a time, well, that just means it ends twice as fast. The enemy is not all-mighty, not even “The Lightworker ™” Recognize that and you’ll… Read more »
I’m certainly not despondent, I’m simply pointing out what few seem to really grasp. I was only mentioning the White House statement to show that the people with guns aren’t going to do anything to change the situation with PP, which confirmed a previous assertion I had made. We aren’t going to shut them down. The PTB have the military, the police, and the prisons. These institutions aren’t just going to bite the hand that feeds them. They will always do their bidding. The fact that Christian conservatives are able to not only rationalize and celebrate joining the military (thereby… Read more »
Additionally, another service these videos have done is to help really demonstrate to us just how powerless we are, how no atrocity, no matter how grand, will ever be dealt with by the PTB unless doing nothing would risk them losing their power.
I think what made it worthwhile was trying to figure out 1) the genders and 2) how the author thought the gender thing was remotely plausible.
How altruistic of you.
The kind of “protection” you offer is not helpful. The only thing it “protects” is the comfortable go-along-to-get-along lifestyle that got us into this position in the first place.
Now knock it off.
It’s time to take a step back and ask: Are we Americans? Naturally we’ve all been taught that we are. But what does it mean to be American today? So far as I can tell, it means living inside the American border. But that’s not an identity, a “we”, any more than “shoppers at Wal-Mart” is. If it means subscribing to certain principles — today those principles are abortion, sodomy, and hating your ancestors. We have a single government ruling over us — but there have been plenty of multinational empires; having the same government didn’t make Jews Romans, or… Read more »
I would disagree.
The principles behind being an American were outlined in the first paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Our current elites are failing us in this regard.
That might have been true at one point, but it certainly isn’t today. That America died some time in the 19th century, if not earlier.
Nope. That America still holds.
The term “American” has been so watered down as to be rendered virtually meaningless!
Douglas Wilson has finally broken Godwin’s internet law in his fury, and in his wrath, continues to run his arguments to illogical conclusions. Says Rev. Wilson [“You are the problem. Let us be fierce in our denunciation of the compromises made by Christians of another era, three centuries back,while full of nuanced understanding about the political challenges that confront us. Some of their compromises were wise, and some were evil”] And how does the most high Reverend Wilson explain the current state of affairs? . [” Why? Because we are nation run by depraved perverts, that’s why.”] —-> (ahem) Ladies… Read more »
Minus the buncombe*, here are Sells’ premises. 1. We are full of the very same Mainstream Christian white patriarchal paternalistic virtue, as our forefathers and, being blind to history, we are just as fully ready to make decisions of behalf of other people and to control their lives. 2. Planned Parenthood Federation of America was also founded in Mainstream Christian white patriarchal paternalistic virtue, and was celebrated as the kindness we performed to “…perfect the human race for the Glory of God.” 3. Good white Christians support(ed) the eugenics movement’s attempt to promote social virtue by controlling procreation as part… Read more »
Timothy,
As usual, your reply is thorough and incisive. It is also, perhaps, needlessly long. You could have just summarized Sells like this:
Wilson is a hypocrite. And he’s also wrong about everything. Oh, and he’s using the devil’s tactics.
It’s a wonder Doug bothers to get out of bed in the morning, though I suppose someone has to do the world’s evil…
I do not appreciate that you exaggerate my position to belittle it. That is called “The Straw Man Fallacy”.
Your third line should read: “Reverend Douglas Wilson feels self-satisfied and well within the enfolding arms of his flock, even though he is presuming to make choices for other people’s lives in a patronizing racist manner, just as mainline Christians did half a century ago…”
The only part I exaggerated was the line about Doug being wrong on “everything”. Otherwise, I pretty much summed up your statement, which you followed with an even more excoriating set of statements in response to Duells Quimby.
Look, I find your manner to be combative, histrionic, and condescending, and I chose to exaggerate one aspect as a way of expressing that. Allow me to simply state it now.
Consider your own calling, brothers and sisters….
… God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise,
… the weak of the world to shame the strong,
… the lowly and despised of the world,
those who count for nothing,
…to reduce to nothing those who are something,
so that no human being might boast before God.
1 Cor 1:26-31
Of course Reverend Wilson is correct about some things. A stopped clock is right twice a day.
I appreciate that you do not use exaggeration.
Since Reverend Wilson based his argument on historical allusions, I also wanted to point out that he is, again, cherry picking to make his arguments.
You did not make an argument, Mark. You resorted to DISQUALIFY and signalling in lieu of a declared position.
That may work on other boards you frequent, but it will not work here.
I doubt you have the integrity, honor, courage or intelligence to formulate a position and state it clearly and positively without resorting to your ‘Offended Southern Gentleman” routine. I hope you prove me wrong.
No, I’m sticking with “Wilson is a hypocrite. And he’s also wrong about everything. Oh, and he’s using the devil’s tactics.” In this essay, adding “Nazi” references is a breach of Godwin’s Law and also does not fly on other boards. He does not pretend to be a loving Christian here. We know who Rev. Wilson is calling “depraved perverts”. Not the US Congress full of staunch Conservatives that have all passed the Pro-Life litmus test; not the bureaucracy at the Department of Health Education and Welfare,… More coded racist name-calling of our “Black Muslim President” – I’m going to… Read more »
Mark says: “We know who Rev. Wilson is calling “depraved perverts”. Not the US Congress full of staunch Conservatives that have all passed the Pro-Life litmus test; not the bureaucracy at the Department of Health Education and Welfare,… More coded racist name-calling of our “Black Muslim President” – I’m going to add “race baiting” to my list of charges.” What secret knowledge do you have, Mark? *How* do you “know” this? You don’t. You’re maligning DW without evidence. And for YOU to pretend to be a “loving Christian” here for bearing false witness against DW, high-handedly for everyone to see,… Read more »
Don’t fart and blame the dog, Wesley.
At least own up that all y’all think you know better than everyone else in the world and you don’t even care anymore if you have a rational argument.
Rev. Wilson has posted is totally a hate filled rant.
“Argumentum ad Hitlerium”is the first sign of blind emotion without substance.
So, if I decry something as being Naziesque, no matter how Nazi-like it IS, I automatically lose?
It seems, if one is to get away, at least when it comes to Internet arguments, with inhumanity and evil, walk the line between Nazi-like behavior and your run-of-the-mill sub-human atrocity as CLOSELY as you can so to trip up your opposition and have them be shouted down by your faithful defenders armed with Godwin’s Law, with all the philosophical authority of pop-culture psuedo-enlightenment and a Wikipedia entry.
Gotcha, Mark
And you know, maybe comparing PP and abortion to Nazi crimes *is* a rhetorical faux pas. Perhaps we should be comparing Nazi crimes to PP and abortion, instead. The Nazis sifted through the corpses of their victims for their wallets and jewelry in order to squeeze out money. Planned Parenthood sifts through the corpses of their victims for their organs and limbs in order to squeeze out money. Perhaps the LORD will grant repentance and grace on us and future Internet discussions will be tempered not by Godwin’s Law, but Godwon’s Law, where the first to compare the other to… Read more »
Maybe it is an emotional desperate overreaction sometimes/ofttimes…but maybe it’s one glimmer of hope that most people have conscience enough to be horrified at a nation being “civilized” enough to come to that level of “barbarism”. And unless our agenda blinds us to caring, most people do ponder how it ever came to that–where did it start in a nation’s dying/numbing conscience…and can we, will we do better at not becoming that.
Surely not valuing life enough and then turning death into things we do value…is comparable enough to warrant a mention..yes.
Yup, You lose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLSSh6G3Bx0
Personal attack – That is called “the ad Hominim Fallacy”
Barnabas you’re the one who presumed in a previous thread that the welfare state has sprung full blown from the head of FDR to specifically attack the Church and supplant Christian concern for the poor. How do you square this with the idea that The Government does not protect the poor from profiteers?
It’s really not that hard to figure out the logic, but I’ll walk you through it.
Step 1: Develop welfare state to supplant Christian concern for the poor.
Step 2: Having done so and accomplished your goal, let profiteers run welfare state apparatus.
Step 3: Profiteers profit, poor suffer.
I think his logic is outside of history, but it’s not especially difficult to figure out.
Yeah, pretty much “outside history”… The wealthy elites developed the apparatus to control the state and make their profits before the welfare state came into being. The Oil Trust, Rail Trust, Tobacco Trust, and mining interests etc. were profiting from the dis-enfranchised poor as a result of the industrial buildups of the Civil War, accelerated by the Spanish American War in the 1890’s. (different thread – I outlined my family’s role with the Tobacco War that started in December 1907.) It was the numerous violent uprisings by the workers and equally violent reprisals from the industries between the 1900’s to… Read more »
Guess what, buddy? The government doesn’t have those resources, either (because it doesn’t want to use them that way), and when Jesus said always, he meant always, not “until the government takes over from private charity.”
Also, by the way–claiming that the post-Civil War industrial development was meaningfully accelerate by a three-month conflict is laughable. Try again.
I am very interested to learn more about your knowledge of Secretary of the Navy Teddy Roosevelt building America’s Great White Fleet of enormous battleships to intimidate all of Europe; and naval support bases to service those battleships across the world; President Mckinley’s attack upon the Spanish Empire; the battles that occurred across the planet from Cuba to Manila Bay; the American armies of occupation that were placed in former Spanish possessions; and the protracted genocidal slaughter that McKinley inflicted upon the Filipinos when they asked for independence and a democratic government;.. …and how you think it did nothing to… Read more »
Sure, buddy, no problem. You seem to be confusing the symptom with the disease–the Spanish-American War was not a cause of the fleet buildup or the expansion of the American fleet’s reach–a reach, by the way, that was nowhere near as expansive as Britain’s, or even France’s, at the time, but, like the latter two, was a symptom of the rising tide of imperialistic nationalism that was sweeping the Western world at the time. As to “protracted genocidal slaughter”, as compared to what? The Germans and the Hottentots? The Belgians in the Congo? Don’t make me laugh. Our hands are… Read more »
You belittle the conflict itself, but say nothing about the gains that America made as a result, to consolidate imperial power. Many modern standards were established for the conduct of mechanized imperial conquest in that little war, even without machine guns and only modest improvements to the Dahlgren design of Naval Guns, for example. Teddy Roosevelt’s use of propaganda in the Spanish American War was also copied and repeated by other countries in the following decades. He set the standard for patriotic bullshit by himself, which could only be matched (but not exceeded) when Leni Riefenstahl was given the technological… Read more »
The gains were…Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and Guam. Such an empire.
TR wasn’t exactly copied by anyone–leaving aside whether or not he was the one that did it, for that blame Hearst–that sort of bombast was very common in those days.
As to the concentration camps–sorry, Spain beat us to that. In fact, one of the big bones of contention during the Philippine Insurrection was that we were acting like Spain did in Cuba.
Sorry that I repeat myself
– The Christian Church never had the ability or the inclination to care for the poor (always), so the government never took anything over from Christian charities, as Barnabas implied in another thread.
– The government does not have enough resources to “deport all the illegals”, nor to prosecute protracted wars in the Holy Lands, nor to continue to allow oil billionaires to buy off the Senators and Congressmen who were supposed to run the government,… but that’s the way it stands.
That first statement is the most asinine thing that I have ever heard.
The second statement is less so, but it is a non-sequitur all the same.
No inclination to care for the poor? Have you ever devoted an idle hour to reading up on the role of Catholic charities in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries? Have you any idea how many hospitals were founded by the Catholic church and staffed by Catholic nursing sisters? How about schools, orphanages, homes for the elderly, homes for battered women, alcohol and drug rehab centers, and programs to supply food and housing? Did you know that even now the Catholic church runs numerous inner city schools for minority children who are not Catholic? Have you heard of the Sisters of… Read more »
Yes, I participate with Catholic Charities; I bring food and clothing and supplies, and serve supper; They are listed as one of the most efficient and transparent religious charities by ratings organization. I also Volunteered for PADS ; My sisters and brothers have been nurses and therapists at Catholic Hospitals and institutions; My brother-in-law regularly brings the eucharist and reads to the patients; We carol at the hospital rooms at Christmas; My sisters-in-law are Catholic educators, (one decided she was not doing enough, and could only leave the Catholic Church to become a Lutheran Priest); We participate in “Chicago Shares”… Read more »
I think you have me mixed up with another commenter. The welfare state came from a mixture of good intentions and political patronage, I doubt anyone gave any thought to church sponsored charity one way or another. Also, my historical social critiques tend to spiral into infinite regress and don’t take long to get into pre-FDR territory.
Having taught in poor, rural public schools, I call BS on this: “spread of sexually transmitted disease through ignorance….” As young as 14, they know it and DID NOT CARE. Oh, the arrogance; these poor, ignorant women don’t know any better: like h*** they don’t. You assign such blatant ignorance to them, so, a question: with the std rate so high, and many of their friends infected, are they all just too stupid to figure out what is going on? I mean they must sit around the house all day wondering, “what the heck is happening to all of my… Read more »
And as a teacher, did you teach about personal responsibility to those miscreants?
I know that the Blogmaster hates me to repeat myself, but there are already volumonous case histories out that illustrate that destroying the education, information, access to well medical care, and access to contraception leads to immediate pandemics of HIV and STI’s.
This may suggest that adults are even more stupid than teens, but I welcome your explanation.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03/31/indiana-gop-defunded-planned-parenthood-and-caused-an-hiv-outbreak-with-their-stupidity/
Mark, if you kill babies then you don’t get to offset it by doing “virtuous things”. PP regularly kill children, and illegally sell their bodies. It is appropriate to completely defund them whatever other good things you think that they might do.
The Nazis aren’t judged on their efficiencies, their good roading, their advanced social welfare, their anti-smoking policies. They are appropriately condemned for their indiscriminate murder, and rightly so.
WOMEN’S HEALTH!!! WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!! http://www.nationalreview.com/planned%20parenthoods-mammogram-lie-
“Nazi” references is a breach of Godwin’s Law and qualifies as an “instant loss” in any internet discussion. I have already made my criticism in the other thread that presuming to deny ALL health services is equally racist to promoting abortion and sterilization programs.. We know who Rev. Wilson is calling “depraved perverts”: Not the US Congress full of staunch Conservatives that have all passed the Pro-Life litmus test. Not the bureaucracy at the Department of Health Education and Welfare,… More coded racist name-calling of our “Black Muslim President” – This is straight out incendiary race baiting. If you have… Read more »
Well, first, teaching the academics of my classes is priority; not being their momma and daddy. Not that directing them toward righteousness doesn’t happen continually, but overcoming there home’s operating assumptions is a monumental task. You seem to operate from the presupposition that these ‘poor miscreants’ begin life at the mental level of beasts and need to be shown the way. I suggest your presupposition is wrong. Case history.? Another operating presupposition of yours seems to be the Marxist mantra that we just haven’t spent enough money/provided enough information to these ‘miscreants’. As if sex education classes, access to contraception… Read more »
Got’cha – “Esto es no mi trabajo”, the motto of the Americas. No Christian responsibilities there. 2nd part? – You say that teens and young adults don’t need any information or education about their reproductive health, because they are smart, sly, and clever. The information is wasted on them and PP doesn’t make any difference? Any statistical case studies that I may present are skewed? (I do not wish to exaggerate your position.) You taught in rural areas? Then you know there is no such thing as [“…school nurses, use of emergency rooms as medical care, scads of places to… Read more »
Wow. Omniscience must be delightful. I’ll be sure to tell my own lyin’ eyes that what they’ve witnessed is not true. Can I have your contact info so that rather than live my life I can just call you up and find out the scoop?
/sarc (just in case your comprehension is as stunted here as in your understanding of my previous response)
As far as I can tell, I must be right next door. Please clarify. Please tell me more of what you witnessed. Your assertions is…(?) [“As young as 14, they know it and DID NOT CARE.’] […academics of my classes is priority; not being their momma and daddy…overcoming there {sic} home’s operating assumptions is a monumental task..”] -Who is doing that task then? You assert here that it is not the responsibility of the schools. [“As if sex education classes, access to contraception through school nurses, use of emergency rooms as medical care, scads of places to purchase or receive… Read more »
AND Planned Parenthood has operated within the strictures of Healthcare Guidelines, established scientific ethics, and Federal Regulation for 9 decades, for most of that time with direct support of American mainline Protestant Christians; AND you have no legal reason to defund PP, based on their actual operations or history…only half-truths, edited tapes, emotional appeals,… There you go folks. Planned Parenthood sells baby parts and it is we who are pro-life who are guilty of defending babies. Mark Allen Sells. Do you really think that “…operated within the strictures of Healthcare Guidelines, established scientific ethics, and Federal Regulation for 9 decades,… Read more »
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/07/31/fact-checking-factcheck-orgs-look-at-the-planned-parenthood-videos/
Now answer the questions.
Do you think an appeal such as this is gold or dross before the consuming fire that is a Holy God?
Could you please tell us the Gospel? I would like to verify that you know the basics of the faith.
Your answers, not links.
Douglas Wilson’s appeal to emotion, moral outrage, insinuated half-truths, distortions, aurgumentum ad Hitlerium. edited tape and name calling? You are so lucky that the satanist have erected their public display in Detroit, for your odor is displeasing to the Lord God. (fact is – I never gave a penny to PP, and do not care that my tax dollars allow other people to make informed choices, I am merely perturbed that Douglas Wilson presumes that he can do the work of the Lord God using lies. The first principle of my religious doctrine is “All truth is God’s Truth”.) I… Read more »
Or do you simply pontificate from on high?
My opinion is that he pontificates from on high. Which isn’t really that far up, actually, its kind of down there, at the far end of the gutter where the trash collects and things sort of stink.
M.A.S. …. Do you really believe what you wrote? PP kills babies, and now has been caught diving up Babies like stolen cars in a chop shop. If PP dropped abortions tomorrow and kept everything else, this controversy would fold like a cheap pup tent. You must be new here.
I called Rev Wilson out for using the “nazi” argument, for using allusions to historical mis-steps such as African Slavery (apparently white slavery is OK?), and forgetting huge hunks of history, (since he appears to be about the same age as me) that he participated in; I criticized him for assuming the same attitude as the same self-satisfied white patriarchal mainline Christian Church that was so positive we were doing “good” by making decisions for poor people and for third world nations, back then. I want to emphasize here that Douglas Wilson Stated that the Government that You elected are… Read more »
Y’know, for a man who complains about ad hominem being thrown at him, you sure do throw it around like it’s free candy.
We know who Rev. Wilson is calling “depraved perverts”. Not the US Congress full of staunch Conservatives that have all passed the Pro-Life litmus test; not even the bureaucracy at the Department of Health Education and Welfare,… More coded racist name-calling of our “Black Muslim President”
– Yeah, I’m name calling also.
Racists.
Wow. Let’s think about who he might be calling depraved perverts–the 44 Democrats in the Senate, who will filibuster everything; the five people on the Supreme Court who are pro-choice; the media who cover for PP–but, nope, it’s obviously a dog whistle for Barack Hussein Obama.
You’re the only one hearing it. Self-examination on your part is in order.
Reverend Wilson specifically states that he is talking about the people who run the Nation. The 44 Democrats in the Senate do not run the nation, they are irrelevant. Only the Republicans can block meaningful change. Which they do quite well. I notice that you have now branded one of your 5 conservative Supreme Court Justices a “pervert” assumedly for some recent decision he has made. (Maybe some decision for equal civil rights under Federal Law? Mmmm?) The fact that you are willing to join the chorus of “pervert” criers only takes you (and Douglas Wilson) farther away from the… Read more »
Because, as we all know, the ability to filibuster any legislation that goes through Congress renders you irrelevant.
And as to Kennedy–ah, no, I’m referring to PP v. Casey, but keep on with the goldfish memory.
As to the rest–I think Wilson’s wrong, but honestly, you’re even more wrong than he is. You have demonstrated in this debate that you have but one intention, and that is the willful interpretation of everything your enemies say in the worst possible light possible. Specks and planks, mac.
What “rest” of the post do you think is wrong?
The “rest” I was referring to is Mark Allen Sales’ nonsense about how Wilson calling our earthly lords and masters depraved perverts means he’s some kind of hatey hatemonger who hates. I don’t think they’re all depraved perverts, but I can understand why someone would think so.
Sales seems to have left, though. Perhaps we’ve run him off.
Dog? Vomit? the verse escapes me….
??????
Perhaps we’ve run him off.
Proverbs 26:11
Ah, I see.
The fact is I don’t think he’s that kind of fool, honestly. He’s a provincial progressive who thinks he’s a cosmopolitan because he hates conservative America. Such can learn if metaphorically hit over the head enough times with the truth..
Thank you, I have learned something.
What have you learned?
The term: “Provicial Progressive”
I use the term “Boilerplate Feminism” to refer to the SOP tropes of the typical “province” that the feminist inhabits. The “Provincial Progressive” is a similar creature.
Ah, I see.
Personally, I’d place the Boilerplate Feminist as a sub-type of the Provincial Progressive, as the Boilerplate Feminist is generally extremely parochial in their view of the status of women in the world.
You wouldn’t know the truth if it marched into your living room with a half-million newborn black babies.
Well, of course not. My living room isn’t large enough to hold them all, and before I could identify which one of them was the truth, I would be hauled into court for violating fire ordinances, public gathering ordinances, 500,000 counts of kidnapping, and various other high crimes and misdemeanors.
We will cut them into parts then.
;-)
Even worse. Then I will be arrested for 500,000 counts of murder. Go soak your head.
I already got water in my ears from the last time.
Too bad.
I imagine that in Douglas Wilson’s Navy Career, “don’t ask don’t tell” meant that the Skipper didn’t ask if he shoved a “homo” out the torpedo tube, and he didn’t tell if he shoved a “homo” out the torpedo tube.
Yup, “Hatey Hate Monger”
;-)
Yeah, you’re not judgmental at all.
Yeah, I know you’re jesting, but Proverbs 26:19.
I have already read Reverend Wilson’s “God hates fags” rants. Though I was surprised that he was embarrassed enough to retract some of his cherry-picked biblical references.
Somehow I doubt that was what was actually said. Because nothing you’ve said this entire time has indicated to me that you are willing to give anyone to the right of Hillary Clinton a fair hearing.
He wrote several paragraphs of “God hates fags” rant based on the old testament in “A Brief Sexual Catechism”, which later ‘disappeared’ in
“A Brief Sexual Catechism 2.0” and was redacted in the original.
Still, the “Westboro Baptist” flavor and intent of his writing were on full display.
Which, y’know, could mean that he decided that he was wrong…but that wouldn’t fit your narrative.
Not like he would apologize, or stop using half-truths, cherry picked Bible verses, incendiary name calling,…
He has asserted that the nation is run by “depraved perverts”.
Since Planned Parenthood has been operation for almost a Century, under various names, he is asserting that America has been a Nation of Perverts for just as long.
All of Bob Jones’ and Billy Graham’s camp revivals for naught.
;-)
For naught? That might be because The Bobs are considered to be “idiot bigots” :)
They did nothing to reduce the number of “depraved perverts” that run our nation.
;-)
It is not the well, but the sick, who need a physician.
Indeed.
“… God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. ”
Acts 10:38
Your own hatred binds you all to satan;
The half-truths, lies, emotional appeals, false analogies, logical fallacies, incendiary name-calling, and edited tape,…
– all serve to give the devil power over you.
I do pray for your healing.
“the half-truths, lies, emotional appeals, false analogies, logical fallacies, incendiary name-calling,” Coming from you, that’s really rich, as evidenced by the end of the sentence… “edited tape” All of which have been paired with the unedited versions, thereby meaning that, by your standards, though not mine, you are a lying liar who lies, and are thus bound to Satan. (Shrugs) That having been said, I will not speculate as to your father, for unlike you and many of the others here I believe that a man can disagree with me on how to fulfill the commands of God without being… Read more »
So back to name calling.
Young Tom, you have nothing.
Think of ways to reach out and help other people instead of punishing them.
What are you doing with your life?
How are you helping other people?
What is your plan?
What happens when you claim your victory and Planned Parenthood id “defunded’ ?
As Rev Wilson pointed out, a lack of Federal funds doesn’t stop a group that is acting according to the laws of the land.
Do you merely transport your moral outrage somewhere else?
What will you do about the “depraved perverts” that run our nation?
What “back to”? You said I was bound to Satan. I’m not sure how much further you can go on the name calling than that. I mean, dude, you regularly do the same things you lambaste other people for doing, and there’s a a word for that.
What am I doing with my life? Simple. Going to graduate school so I can get the credentials I need to go and try to keep the world from getting worse so people like you can preen about your moral superiority to everyone else.
You are a earnest Christian who has been duped by lies.
Pointing out that listening to lies and using lies is not an imitation of Christ is not the same as name calling. Unless your moral outrage and need to punish people you don’t even know is genuinely your own, and not Douglas Wilson’s implant.
(OMG – Grad students! Those were the days)
What are you doing in the meantime?
Dude, let me try to spell this out for you: Just because someone disagrees with your interpretation of current events and the motivations of the major players doesn’t make them a liar. For someone who insists that people who judge other people’s heart motivations are the evilest evil that ever eviled, you do it rather frequently, Mr. “Douglas Wilson wants to devour the houses of widows.” “Unless your moral outrage and need to punish people you don’t even know is genuinely your own,” What does whether or not I know someone have to do with whether or not they’re engaged… Read more »
BUT If you are using half truths, incendiary name calling (“depraved perverts”, “sodomites”, “baby killers”, (same list) to further your agenda this is not effective. It is mere rabble-rousing. It is fodder for the 24 hour cable news cycle, which everyone now thinks of as ‘reality’. Search your heart. Is your intention to hurt and punish the women who are accused of “making the wrong decision”? Are you thrilled every time Douglas Wilson identifies the “depraved perverts” who are the problem. Do you think, as he says, that our problem is ourselves, because we have not purged the perverts and… Read more »
“Is your intention to hurt and punish the women who are accused of “making the wrong decision”?” What? You think that’s what this is about? Sadism? This is about justice, no more, and no less. As well ask if your devotion to progressivism is about punishing people you think are exploiters. “Stipulated that PP has been operating “legally” under American Law for nine decades, then the collective solution proposed here is to cut off options to the women who have growing infants inside them, but NOT the law that allows PP to operate. This does not really hurt PP in… Read more »
I am asking you to search your heart. IS this about sadism? —> The need to physically punish someone else in order to receive is frisson of gleeful human victory. I repeat, PP will probably receive more money to cover “increased costs” when obtaining fetal tissue becomes more scarce. Women, having less options, will be having abortion later when they finally find a clinic, and will more readily sign consent for the use of more valuable tissue samples for science. I believe that the people on this forum are doing little to nothing to prepare a world to receive babies… Read more »
Searched it. No. You almost certainly don’t believe me, but that’s not my problem.
I also, frankly, really don’t believe your middle paragraph.
As to commodification–in case you haven’t noticed, this is common to all economic systems, it just comes in different packages. Complain about neoliberalism all you want, but trust me, it’s not nearly as bad as the system you support.
What?
My impression is that NeoLiberalism does control the nation. It is the system we have!
Just because we have been referring to it here as “depraved pervert sodomites” doesn’t change what it is.
You are losing your soul as you attempt to transform yourself to make a more pleasing offering upon the altar of commerce.
Be a human. do something now.
Sorry, mac. Commerce has nothing to do with what I’m doing.
I will let you have the last word then.
Learn as much as you can.
You’re gonna need it.
You have told me nothing I do not already know.
“..worst possible light…”
I won’t go through the list of Douglas Wilson’s lies again, but you have not defended a single one.
Unfortunately for you, he hasn’t lied–which you just have.
Bullshit (..on Douglas Wilson’s ‘provincial’ clodhopper shoes in Idaho.)
I know my own mind very well. Of course, I forget, you’re Mark Allen Sales, whom God has given special insight into the hearts of his opponents, thereby meaning you just know they’re evil hypocritical hatey-hatemongers.
Actually the name is “Sells”, it is Pronounced ‘Sales’ though.
Cool. Unintentional correctness. Still. Sells shall it ever be.
The fact that you are willing to join the chorus of “pervert” criers only takes you (and Douglas Wilson) farther away from the love of Christ. The first step in the Gospel is awareness of sin, followed by repentance of sin. To sin is to pervert the God given order. Wilson was too kind. As for the love of Christ, we have the words of St. Paul in Romans 8. on that, directed too the brethren and not too the unrepentant perverts. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor… Read more »
Douglas Wilson is the one calling “perverts”, ‘Nazis”, and “black baby killers” – half-truths, emotional appeals, ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies, cherry picked facts, edited tapes,…lies from the father of lies,… I feel comfortable bringing discussion to this weblog. Thank you for your concern. Consider your own calling, brothers and sisters…. … God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, … the weak of the world to shame the strong, … the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, …to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might… Read more »
You are in favor of using Christian tax-dollars to murder children and then sell the parts for profit. I look forward to your Scriptural case for that.
Reverend Douglas Wilson has abandoned any scriptural argument. We are not discussing Scriptures, when are talking about rabble rousing, race baiting, name calling,…
Fact is – I never gave a penny to PP, and do not care that my tax dollars allow other people to make informed choices, I am merely perturbed that Douglas Wilson presumes that he can do the work of the Lord God using lies.
The first principle of my religious doctrine is “All truth is God’s Truth”.
I will pray for your soul.
Oh, timothy Why should I stick to Holy Scripture when Douglas Wilson has already disposed of the Scriptures and entered his Nazi-black-baby-killer-depraved-perverts-run-America-fantasy dream world and dragged you all in with him. Scripture has nothing to do with this. Your own hatred binds you all to satan; half-truths, lies, emotional appeals, false analogies, logical fallacies, and edited tape,…bullshit. You could defeat Planned Parenthood by telling the truth, and asking the US Congress to change the legislation that Planned Parenthood closely adheres to, (and has operated legally for 9 decades), but at this point your lies are more important, and your love… Read more »
Why should I stick to Holy Scripture
Because you have yet to make a Scriptural case and because you have not answered my question: What is the Gospel?
Answer the question, please.
Reverend Douglas Wilson does not make an argument based on scriptural authority.
He can not justify using lies to further your cause.
Therefore the only Scripture I need to quote back is John 14:16
What is the Gospel? Answer the question, please.
The Gospel is Truth!
You are liars.
Based on Mark Allen Sells confusion about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his technique of smearing and obfuscation, I an only assume Mark Allen Sells is not a Christian. I have asked Mark Allen Sells multiple times, “What is the Gospel”. For a christian child this is easy and a joy to relate, yet Mark does not answer the question; rather, he drops a verse to smear and condemn and then bravely runs away. Mark Allen Sells fancies himself as a bearer of the truth while his message is the political message of the typical boilerplate provincial “progressive”. Note… Read more »
The Gospel is TRUTH!
Do not use lies. Lies are of the devil.
If you are using lies, you do not know the Gospel.
Thus endeth the lesson.
You do not know the Gospel. You need to learn these things before presuming to lecture a Christian. Here is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible says that we are all sinners (Rom. 3:23). This means that we have all offended God. We have all broken His law. Therefore, we are guilty of having sinned. Because of this, we are separated from God (Isaiah 59:2), are dead in our sins (Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:3), cannot please God (Rom. 3:10-11), and will suffer damnation (2 Thess. 1:9). The only way to escape this judgment is by receiving Christ–by trusting in… Read more »
The Gospel is Truth!
Jesus Christ is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Light,…
You are liars.
Mark, Tell me how Pastor Wilson is wrong regarding the comment that we are governed by perverts. How many sex scandals have we seen from sitting presidents, congressmen, governors, state legislators, mayors, etc? How many have hidden or minimized or justified their financial crimes? And how many happily and aggressively support the horror of crushing and crunching of babies (“another boy!”) carefully so as not to harm the dollars therein? If these are not examples of perversion, just delete the word from the language. Regarding the charge that we overlook the compromises made just a half century ago, you must… Read more »
Oh that I could “upvote” this a thousand times!!
We know who Rev. Wilson is calling “depraved perverts”. Not the US Congress full of staunch Conservatives that have all passed the Pro-Life litmus test; not even the bureaucracy at the Department of Health Education and Welfare,… You are happy to accept coded racist name-calling of our “Black Muslim President”. It is the work of the devil, and it blinds you to the actual activities that he may be committed to. I doubt that you care that he perpetuated and expanded drone assassination programs, wholesale spying on US citizens, and the ability of wealthy interests to promulgate schemes to transfer… Read more »
“Nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi, nazi!”
I would rather break Godwin’s law (who made him a law-maker,anyway?) than God’s Law any ol’ day. You know, given the choice and all…
And, don’t feel so sorry for Mr. Obama, Mr. Sells. Pretty sure that your fetish-like attachment to supporting the welfare state, opposing racism, and, again, going all anal and such over Nazis makes you just as much one of the depraved perverts being discussed. What color are *you*?
“Argumentum ad Hitlerium”is the first sign of blind emotion without substance.
Are these Godwin’s Signs?
…and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years…
From Wikipedia
Godwin’s Law iaw does not claim to articulate a fallacy; instead it is framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons. Its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical.
Mike Godwin stated “I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust”
On internet user boards whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.
As Reverend Wilson has done here.
We are Christians. We don’t play by your rules.
You use the logical fallacy: “since Pro-Life advocates are good Christians, then the only good Christians are Pro-life”. While I have provided abundant support for the idea that historically, “good Christians” did (and do) believe that contraception, abortion, and sterilization programs were, and are, a good thing to do, when it is an informed choice of the person(s) who actually own their own biological and reproductive function. At the same time presuming to deny ALL health services is equally oppressive as promoting abortion and sterilization programs, …which good mainstream Christians actively supported only a few decades ago. – presumably both… Read more »
Let me work through your stated arguments. Since “good Christians” support(ed) abortion, we must support those who kill babies and sell the body parts. Since “good Christians” support contraception, and sterilization programs, we must support contraception and sterilization programs. Since “good Christians” support(ed) abortion, contraception and sterilization programs, they are guilty of what the people in those (edited!) videos are doing. i.e. murdering babies and selling baby parts. Furthermore, the wish of “good Christians” to quit funding that which “good Christians” once supported plus ALL OTHER Health services make them “bad Christians”. Therefore, to be good “good Christians” the “good… Read more »
If you do not wish to support them, then change the law using true facts and valid arguments. Look up “NeoLiberal” – how business interests turn all people: babies, prisoners, illegals, welfare recipients, Labor, and management,… into commodities; graded for quality, valued only for their usefulness to the “markets” De-funding them is the same horseshit plan that an Alzheimer’s riddled President made 30 years ago. PP is acting according to the law of the land. – Yes, they have had mainline Protestant Christian support for 9 decades. Yes, the programs of the past can be seen as a condescendingly patronizingly… Read more »
Be prepared to clothe and feed and educate and care for all the children
that Douglas Wilson claims are now making a mountain of dead black
babies in a depraved pervert Nazi murder factory.
Now, from this, it is apparent that you are pro-abortion. That is you, who sit on high and pontificate are a man who supports the murder of innocent children.
Are you pro-abortion Mark Allen Sells?
Answer yes or no.
Do you think God wants us to abort children?
Answer yes or no.
Already asked and answered.
Not counting female eggs that are never fertilized, approximately 70% of zygotes are naturally aborted before coming to term, because they are not viable at some stage of development. (genetic abnormalities, nutrition, environment, physical trauma, crack cocaine sold to inner city moms by Reagan’s CIA operatives,…)
Since humans are entirely considered to be people at conception, God is Pro-Abortion.
Brilliant. Since everybody dies, God is in favor of murder.
If Mark Allen Sales had been born 150 years before he actually was:
“If you support abolition, then I hope you are ready to feed, house, clothe, and employ all four million black slaves from the South.”
Are you personally ready to feed, house, clothe, and employ all four hundred thousand new babies that are free to roam the earth every year when you claim your victory?
– those are your children now, Tom.
James Hammond, John C. Calhoun, and Jefferson Davis deserve an apology from you, then.
As I have stated elsewhere in these tangled threads, my family started in America with John and Priscilla Alden; the first Biblical marriage of a man and a woman from the Mayflower in the Plymouth Plantation. We were here when “European settlers burned white indentured Irish servants (slaves) as witches. All done Biblically to save their Irish Catholic souls. We fought the revolutionary war to break the Treaty of Paris, so that we could steal the land from the indian Nations. Biblically justified expansion. The US. Congress granted my ancestors indian land for their service in the war. In 1838,… Read more »
Provincial Progressive to the max. Just to get your most obviously stupid point out of the way, the 13th Amendment, which abolished slavery in the entire United States, was ratified in December of 1865, all of eight months after Lee surrendered at Appomattox, and six months after the last Confederate general, Stand Watie, surrendered.
So, I mean, if you’re measuring the time by the standards of flies, then yes, it was a long time after the Civil War.
My recommendation is to get over your white guilt. You can’t expiate the crimes of your ancestors.
Reverend Wilson framed the discussion by his imaginary lecture on Civil war slavery at the bottom, and the thousands of black baby parts spewing through the streets of New York at the top. Lincoln’s “illegal Executive overreach” ( as it is called now) was issued Jan 1st, 1863. Wikipedia: [“Kentucky did not abolish slavery during the Civil War, as did the border states of Maryland and Missouri. However, during the war, about 75% of slaves in Kentucky were freed or escaped to Union lines. The Kentucky legislature considered a conditional ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment, to deny freedmen and other… Read more »
In the grand scheme of things, two years isn’t a long time. Not only are you provincial geographically, you’re also provincial temporally.
As to your last sentence, it really demonstrates the weakness of your position, that you are reduced to saying “what is your plan for dealing with all the people who won’t be killed?”
George Fitzhugh had a more morally defensible position than you do.
“Provincial”
You do know that your “font of wisdom and moral decorum” is in Moscow, Idaho; eschews historical argument or comparisons (other than ‘Hitleristic’), condemns ‘nuanced understanding’;
charges the city folk in New York with unbridled perversions; actually published a ‘God hates fags’ blog, like a Westboro frothy Baptist….?
Right.
Because, as we all know, the fact that I think you don’t have a clue means I think Douglas Wilson knows everything. Yet another instance of your dishonesty.
Hi Mark, even assuming that everything is as terrible as you say–that our history is riddled with atrocities for which no atonement is possible, that every conservative leader has been corrupt beyond measure, that our economic system is a masterpiece of wickedness and injustice, that children are brought into this world to be treated like Gammas in a Huxley dystopia, that the justice system is rigged against people of color, that women have been oppressed to the point that their only rational course of action is having sex without protection and then aborting their children–what then? Seriously, is your position… Read more »
The point is – You don’t want any children either.
I characterize that as being a Biblical hypocrite.
That is a terrible point. The probability of my being accepted as an adoptive parent, being a single male in my early 20s, is nil. Go soak your head.
Exactly, people are often rejected for adoption or foster care by false criteria. The process is stressful, expensive, and difficult. The effect is to keep loving people from taking care of children with economic barriers and silly hurdles that you have to go through.. One of you people said that it would not take too much legwork to prove I was wrong about that. I’m waiting. – However, if it is your goal to make sure that one more child has a loving home, there is probably something you can do. – Have you thought about it? BUT <— You… Read more »
And you know this…how?
You think I wasn’t 20-ish and single, and, in that state, found the process absurd?
What have you done?
No, that was in reference to your constant whining about how I don’t want black babies.
It is apparent you are an Alinsky protege. Your primary rhetorical weapon is Radical Rule #4. * RULE 4: “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity’s very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.) Sells, you aren’t… Read more »
There are times when making references to the holocaust is neither glib nor hyperbolic.
Take the current deal with Iran. It’s perfectly reasonable to talk about the extermination of millions of Jews when talking about the extermination of millions of Jews.
False argument promulgated by business interests. –
If the Iranians get to sell their oil, then the price will drop, and there will no longer be any profit in fracking for oil.
BP, Chevron, Exxon-Mobil, Conoco-Phillips, Enbridge Pipeline and Canadian National Rail, and Burlington Northern Rail, and Koch Bros. and , and Keystone Pipeline,… all have an interest in seeing the flow of toxic tar sands oil continue to America.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/080814/fracking-cant-happen-without-these-companies.asp
“And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.’ Rev. 6:6 I am perpetually confused It seems clear to me that conservative Christians are constantly trying to jump-start the Tribulation by themselves in their fury ( – a blatant disregard for the Law of Moses and the command of Our Lord Jesus Christ, “Thou Shalt not tempt the Lord your God”) Rev. Pat Robertson packed the Bush 43 Presidency… Read more »
The neocons and the Iraq war have nothing to do with my point that the Ayatollah Ali Khomenei’s call for the destruction of Israel is no different than the rhetoric coming out off Germany in the 1930s, and any comparison between the two is not hyperbolic.
I accept that some Middle-Eastern political factions adopted National Socialist principles into their operational philosophy. (Syria comes to mind) If you were willing to do the legwork to link Ayatollah Ali Khomenei’s political awakenings with a love for national Socialist principles, I might accept a discussion linking Nazis to Iran. http://iranprimer.usip.org/resource/supreme-leader http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/9/iran-khamenei-succession.html To suggest that Iran is a existential threat to Israel that WE need to be concerned about, you also need to explain away Saint Reagan’s “October Surprise” in the 1980 election, and the Iran-Contra Scandal,… It appears to be that America CAN deal separately with Iran, as a… Read more »
I won’t deny that big oil comes into play or that there is a bigger geopolitical picture, but the driving force for the conflict in the Middle East is hatred and antisemitism.
Then why add more hatred? We see that Our Lord Jesus Christ warned his disciples not to play into the jihad culture that was the norm for the Holy Lands, even 20 centuries ago. (Matthew 5:22)
No it is hyperbole.
Godwin’s law.
You lose.
Two things about Godwin’s law. First, it’s a social convention regarding dialogue among people. I don’t care if anyone thinks I’ve broken it, especially if I’m right. Second, I didn’t break the convention here. The Nazis WERE aborting fetuses and WERE killing infants (there is no difference). They were committing genocide in order to preserve their master race. PP and others ARE killing infants, and if Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins had their way, killing infants under certain circumstances (which don’t matter a whit) up to about a year of age would be LEGAL. The ongoing American genocide is in… Read more »
Well, Mark…
For your information, if I write off your comments as having broken some fake rule then I don’t have to address your points, leaving me to pretend I’ve proffered a valid and substantive argument.
So…..
There.
Poo-poo head.
I don’t care about you.
Douglas Wilson has worn away the thin insulation of Biblical sanctity. The bare hot wires of hatred and emotion show throughout his essay.
“Argumentum ad Hitlerium”is the first sign of blind emotion without substance.
You don’t know Doug, do you?
Mark Allen Sells Out, your accusations have a father.
Hi Jamie, Throw the ink pot at me, will you?* I believe that Douglas Wilson cherry picks from the Bible to condemn other people, and exclude them from the catholic church universal without the authority of God. I believe that he is willing to use half truths, edited tape, false statements, emotional appeals, misapplications of logic to attack other Americans and take away their civil rights on any thin pretext. -That kind of action also has a father. Says the good Reverend Wilson. “The great problem comes when the same sin or worse is being committed by someone who sets… Read more »
Mr. Sales, as to your rantings about hatred, kindly take Galatians 5:12, put it in your pipe, and smoke it.
tastey!
My ranting cannot match the Nazi-black-baby-killer-depraved-perverts-run-America-fantasy-dream-world rant that Douglas Wilson dragged all y’all into with him.
The only Scripture I need to quote back is John 14:16
Dude, as evidenced by our conversation above, you’re a better fantasist than Wilson.
…but not a bigger liar.
That is actually debatable, given that you’ve said things that are evidently untrue as opposed to being different interpretations of current events and trends.
Like?
The slavery thing, for one.
I clarified, and gave examples. – Would you like to be in slavery for two more years? – Can you wait two years Planned Parenthood to be defunded? Effectively,the mining practices in Galena, Illinois lasted longer. The slaves dug up the lead that made the bullets for the Union Army. The Federal and State government were OK with the idea that the “miners” were black, and not paid, and not allowed to go free. – I get the Idea that once the practice ended there, the survivors drifted towards Ferguson. Missouri… …and the effect of the Jim Crow laws, a… Read more »
Your questions are irrelevant. I would not want to be in slavery for one more day, were I a slave, and I do not want PP to be funded for one more day. Unlike you, however, I don’t have the memory of a goldfish, and so I know that a long time–particularly a “LONG time”–is longer than two years.
Try again.
As to the rest of your arguments–particularly Jim Crow–I advise you to read George Fitzhugh’s Cannibals All. The parallels are quite striking, and should cause you to reconsider your opinions.
Logical Fallacy, false accusations. I did not lie.
(Douglas Wilson did.)
You are moving the goalposts to suit your purposes.
When did oppression of black people in America end then?
Because all oppression is the same as slavery. You’re a horrifyingly bad debater, as you manage to engage in the exact same logical fallacies you accuse other people of making in the same post.
Says Douglas Wilson {“The judgments you render will be the judgments that are rendered unto you. The condemnations that pass so easily over your lips will be the same condemnations that are thrown back into your teeth.”}
Smile…Show me your teeth.
;-)
(Grins, skins back lips)
Now show me yours.
I am not defending Douglas Wilson’s “God Hates fags” /” The nation is run by depraved perverts and sodomites” rants.
I am giggling though.
It is written that you will be judged as you judge. You may wish to consider this.
Says Douglas Wilson {“The judgments you render will be the judgments that are rendered unto you. The condemnations that pass so easily over your lips will be the same condemnations that are thrown back into your teeth.”}
Smile…Show me your teeth.
;-)
You just saw them.
round we go
Not so.
You just don’t like to hear them.
That is not the same.
Which is a criticism that could be leveled at your claims just as easily.
Matthew 23: 13-14
Wilson, however, is no banker, so verse 14 applies not. As to verse 13, Matthew 18:6.
Yet, he wants to supplant the “depraved perverts” so that he can devour the widow’s houses.
same-same
Y’know, for a man who criticizes people for judging the hearts of others, you sure do it a lot.
Ugghh. Calling people on Godwin’s Law should be the new Godwin’s Law. Let it rest, dude. The comparisons are either accurate or they are not.
Good thing you were clear to say that it is a loss in any “internet” discussion. I’m fine with “losing” internet discussions, as long as we win the real ones.
“MAS’s Law”: He alone gets to write and implement all the new internet discussion laws.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/30/1407166/-Catholic-Nun-Explains-Pro-Life-In-A-Way-That-May-Stun-The-Masses#
From your link At the same time, the GOP works to shut down women’s health clinics, with a special vengeance towards Planned Parenthood (#StandWithPP). You don’t hear of these Right Wing anti-choice extremists adopting children from unplanned pregnancies. But you do hear of them cutting government programs like school lunches for children, cutting government financial and heath care aid to families who are homeless and/or in need, and blocking free college education. No, the goals of these hypocrites seem to be more about controlling women’s bodies and women’s futures. Well actually you do hear of the right adopting children and… Read more »
From the replies I have received so far, I would have guessed that no person here has ever attempted to reach out to give a loving home to a child in need. They do not know the cost, and they do not know the trouble of dealing with the process. No one here speaks of working to make sure that children come into a world that does not criminalize their behavior and incarcerate them for the crime of being children. We have already discussed on a different extensively thread [“The wealthy elites developed the apparatus to control the state and… Read more »
People do what’s in their nature and they have no reason or time for a Hillary justification.
You are everything that concerns me for our future.
My son is adopted and my wife is on the founding board of a pregnancy care center — the first and only in our county. We work together with the Human Trafficking Coalition here and have been part of several initiatives to address the issue, working closely with local law enforcement every step of the way. Our church regularly works together an area ministry that provides transitional housing for inmates and drug addicts. I could go on to name other ways in which I personally work to address social justice issues but I believe the point is made. So, fie… Read more »
Douglas Wilson is the one calling “perverts”, ‘Nazis”, and “black baby killers” – half-truths, emotional appeals, ad hominem attacks, logical fallacies, cherry picked facts, edited tapes,…lies from the father of lies,… I feel comfortable bringing discussion to this weblog. Thank you for your concern. Bless you for your efforts to reach out to children in need. Your testimony shows that Christianity needs “builders” and not “destroyers”. I am surrounded by friends and family who are amazingly caring and dutiful Christians, who have often gone out to find one more child who needs to be loved and nurtured and held and… Read more »
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/maps-of-access-to-abortion-by-state/ Thanks for that link…it is interesting…some of the maps reminded me of franklinb23’s dividing the country for us according to our “liberalism” :) Do I understand you are most concerned that: 1) it is curious to claim our past evils on our own failures, then rather than an emphasis on our own failings and corrections of those, glance away and then blame the current perverts? and then think a commitment to consider a Medal of Honor is some kind of victory for our sins and triumph of long effect over the peverts is kind of anemic or hypocritical? 2)… Read more »
Can’t believe the White House’s Response… it’s a flippant, “Yeah, we’ve seen ’em. So what?” and “They’re false… because PP told us so” https://youtu.be/IhUaYmra_wk?t=6898
Yes, its almost like Prime Minister Question Time where the first response is rote. “I refer the gentleman to the response given moments ago” (referring to the published answer) It says *nothing*. This must be about half way through the 1st quarter…
A Catholic blog I frequent postulates that what God is doing right now is “Illumination of Conscience” What is hidden is being revealed. Both good men and evil men will exercise their free-will and choose God or man. The choice cannot be hidden: light or dark. All will choose. A side effect is a marked intensity in difference. There will be a doubling down and a doubling up. Pastor Wilson, bless him, is working towards ‘national repentance’. I pray and I hope it works out that way. Let me preface my next paragraph with this: I am often wrong. My… Read more »
The first rap song I ever heard was about liberal hypocrisy. Note how nothing has changed:
You save the whales, you save the seals
You save whatever’s cute and squeals
But you kill “that thing” that’s in the womb
Would not want no baby boom
Good, bad, laugh and scorn
Blame yourself for kiddie porn
Convenience is the law you keep
And your compassion’s ankle deep
Who you tryin’ to kid, kid?
Wrap it in a fine philosophy
Who you tryin’ to kid, kid?
But your bottom line still says “me me me”
Bad Rap, Steve Taylor (1983)
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/defund-prosecute-planned-parenthood-illegal-harvesting-sales-aborted-babies
Done.
I can’t imagine someone else not making this connection, but has anyone else noticed that the story we have unfolding right in front of us is that of another young David throwing smooth stones at a giant? There are no coincidences with Providence.
Also David & Nathan.
Thanks for directing me to that post! That same connection occurred to me yesterday when, in our local paper, an article decrying the legality of lion hunting was directly below the article praising the legal murder of the unborn. The featured political cartoon depicted a hunter dubbed, ‘The Lyin’ King’, dangling a bag of money over a cliff and saying, “But I didn’t know Cecil was funded!”
Irony abounds.
Planned Parenthood actually agrees. Only they, the 1 Billion Dollar “Non” Profit, think they’re David. Here’s a tweet they sent a few days ago. It’s been scrubbed by now.
Friends who #StandWithPP: Stay strong. The anti-abortion minions want to bully us into silence. That’s not happening. pic.twitter.com/Oudi9ePIxF
— Planned Parenthood (@PPact) July 24, 2015
Yes, that is certainly the way that PP is trying to twist things (only their play looks a lot like soccer-flopping).
My point was that Christians should know their stories and embrace God’s way of telling stories (and get excited about it!). David (Daleiden) is young and picked his stones well. I find the connection quite heartening!
Maybe Jonathan Swift was being prophetic when he wrote… “A modest proposal”?
Especially for Pastor Doug and Mark Sells, Below is a link to pure tactics article on the politics and mechanics of pressure application. Whether you’re apolitical/independent, an R on offense, or a D on defense, I believe you’ll find Rothman worth your time. Nav waypoint for Alex in Wonderland, Rothman is of course totally standing in the very center of the secular/human affairs circle. He can be fairly read as starting from moral principles, both O.T. and N.T., but he’s left the 4 corners of the synagogue’s lot and is now operating – – while still using those principles –… Read more »
Just when I’ve almost gathered my thoughts to proceed with a former discussion… So, I’ll just be brave and comment more immediately with this one and keep up better regardless of how obvious it might be I’m still needing “waypoints”…(love them, thanks) This article is excellent, is it not? Riveting. (Alarming one hand, and intriguing on the other…) To illustrate exactly as you describe. Is it a game or a strategy or a loss of principles or a noble effort to regard success in this way… 1) Maybe that’s what I haven’t caught on to (because it goes against my… Read more »
Grandchild duty rest of day, plus let’s give Mark Sells a chance to read and reflect.
Back tonight.
I’ll be reflecting all day…
you knew that…
Its the teeth, the teeth in your avatar (:
Add this one to your reflections list: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/2015/07/31/hillary-clinton-scandal-privilege/ The voting public re-elected Obama having seen 4 years of him in action. Hillary is trailing smoke from several places yet maintains a lead in nearly all the nation-wide polls. People who think she cannot be trusted and is not honest nonetheless both plan to vote for her and expect her to win. Go figure. That’s the public we are seeking to influence on PP/abortion; our fellow citizens are perfectly capable of making what we believe are terrible choices . . . and in the face of what we believe are matters… Read more »
Here’s a smarter guy with a better idea: http://www.campaignsandelections.com/campaign-insider/2499/what-texas-revealed-about-predicting-voter-behavior And another one: http://www.campaignsandelections.com/magazine/1729/vaccines-vs-leeches “Here is the fundamental lesson: We do not know what works until we test it, repeatedly, using experiments. Randomized-controlled experiments allow us to block out all the other noise and pinpoint precisely how a message or tactic changes voter behavior. This is key: rigorous experiments randomly assign voters to receive a treatment, or to a control group that receives nothing, or a placebo.” My first trip thru grad school (1980-82) was Public Admin. OU required two “Methods” courses. I really liked the one on studies and outcomes;… Read more »
For sake of time in digging up a former convo…because it kinda sorta fits here… You had said that what was accomplished in Hobby Lobby could have/is/might have been or might be undone by Oberg. (As in the scary part in the dissent comments about EXERCISE of religion vs. speaking/teaching solely among other things maybe…) And then you have referenced the concept that maybe Oberg risked or went too far (with what they can continue to get away with…public opinion/perception, and all that and the court might be on “pause” to push too much harder too quickly… 1) How do… Read more »
Noticing a distinct lack of Ryan in this thread.