Quick Follow Up on The Flag

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As a number of you noticed, I wrote yesterday on what I regard as empty posturing on the part of the Southern Baptist Convention. This elicited a lot of reactions and comments, and so I thought to follow everything up with a few additional comments of my own.

One of the reactions was by Jeff Wright, here. I said on Twitter that he landed a couple of good ones, and I thought I should be more specific.

Before getting to that, first, whatever you might think the faults of my reasoning to be, they do not arise from lack of acquaintance with the customs and mores of Southern Baptists. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, and was baptized there. They wouldn’t put it this way, but they were the ones used by God to apply the sign and seal of the covenant to me. Moreover, I really am aware of the good work done by those urging the SBC to take a strong stand on the government school system, and have been cheering them on in this space. And Al Mohler is a man I respect highly.

So what were the “good ones” that Wright landed? What I want to do here is not to interact with any of the flag arguments made on the merits (which could be profitable later on), but rather to address how he pointed out a rhetorical misfire on my part. In his section beginning, “To be honest, this one gets under my skin . . .” Wright read me as saying that it is better to double down on old sins rather than repent “late,” and I believe that I should have spent a lot more time making myself clear on that point. In other words, I am willing to take responsibility for that particular miscommunication, and my apologies.

Sin, as defined by God, should be repented whenever the Spirit convicts us of that sin. And it doesn’t matter if confessing the sin is politically inconvenient or not, or is later in the game than it should have been. I should have made that point much more plainly than I did. I was assuming it, but should have said it better. So file this post under retractions.

Coming back to the flag, we are not talking about sin, but rather about something that (in the minds of some) is symbolic of sin. And that creates a host of questions. Symbolic to whom? Why? How did it come to mean that? Who is in charge of the symbolism, and are they going to do something else with another symbol as soon as we cede authority to them in this case? And so on.

I will no doubt be saying more about all this as time goes on. This whole field is right at the ground zero of our culture wars. The progressives have proven themselves to be apt in the field of signs and semiotics, and conservatives are babes in the woods.

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Jerome Bushnell
Jerome Bushnell
6 years ago

You apologized. Now, others can no longer say that you are unwilling to do so.

"A" dad
"A" dad
6 years ago

“Apt in the field of signs and semiotics,..” (?)

“Progressives” are even better in the field of signs and idiotics.

While lies are flattering, in the worst sense of the word,

truth has no need of a make over.

Ian Miller
6 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I hate to disagree with your wit (and it is very witty!), but I think this attitude is why we lost the culture war. Admittedly, I am a filthy Marxist-trained English major, but I think that Christians too often buy into “well, if it’s true, why are we writing lies (fiction) about it?” And thus we lost a generation of children to the television and books and comics and films that told them that believing in themselves is good, that and bad are irrelevant, that being a pervert is laudable, and that only the idiots believe in God and family.… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  Ian Miller

Myth and symbol are our native language. They shape how we see the world. They connect us with spiritual truth too deep to be apprehended by our senses or our intellects–what the Old Sheep of the Lake District (thank you, Rumpole) described as “Fallings from us, vanishings; Blank misgivings of a blind creature moving about in worlds not realized.” You are right that we have given myth away to the secular world. But it is ours.

Ian Miller
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Agreed – I want to work to reclaim it.

"A" dad
"A" dad
6 years ago
Reply to  Ian Miller

Colossians 2 2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent… Read more »

Ian Miller
6 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I think there is much truth in that idea – I remember how outraged I was when I realized that Judith Butler’s idea of pastiche was deliberately “a copy without an original” – making mockery of any kind of meaning. That kind of stuff and nonsense is definitely sem-idiotics. :)

"A" dad
"A" dad
6 years ago
Reply to  Ian Miller

A.K.A.

“fine-sounding arguments”

and

“hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.”

Ian Miller
6 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

Sophistry, plain and simple.

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  Ian Miller

Sophistry: rarely plain and never simple.

ME
ME
6 years ago

“The progressives have proven themselves to be apt in the field of signs and semiotics, and conservatives are babes in the woods.” Well said. It’s the inability of conservatives to do triage that always gets to me. Triage is, “the assignment of degrees of urgency to wounds or illnesses to decide the order of treatment of a large number of patients or casualties.” So, the world is full of collateral damage and rather than treating the people who are actually bleeding out, conservatives will often happily chase progressives down a rabbit hole. I realize the confederate flag causes some people… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

It is hard for me to see why some things are an either/or. Surely it must be possible for a group of sincere Christians to renew their opposition to abortion, declare their abhorrence of terrorism, pray for victims of persecution, AND decide about the Confederate flag all in one morning!

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

What of those devout Christians here in Appalachia where the Confederate Flag is part of who they are? They have generations of family buried in family burial grounds–there is usually one every valley. In those grounds fly Confederate flags.

They really don’t give a darn what others think; this is who they are. They lost (round one) of an unjust, needless war. They have not changed; they where beaten, but not conquered.
They are still the same people.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I would suggest that they find their identity and meaning from Christ and his word as opposed to a flag or cultural heritage.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

John, Ban the Stars and Stripes. Its the only moral thing to do. Let me explain. Appalachia is the Bible Belt. We hold hands and pray when pumping gas for crying out loud. God is here permeating this society. Very near each one of those cemeteries, where the graves flying the Confederate flag are decorated on Decoration Day, is a Church. Commonly a FWB–Freewill Baptist Church. Churches are packed. They are the focus of community life. It is not these people who have the problem, it is those who seek to ban their (our) symbols. I am going to get… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Ironically, Appalachia was not so much supportive of the secessionists.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

The gravestones* here tell otherwise.

*literally stones. Taken from a field, by a friend or family and taken up a hill (try walking up a hill in Appalachia with a stone in your hands) and placed next to a body who was most likely in his young teens and maintained for generations.

For all your glib historical retorts lie ten testaments to a fidelity you cannot kill.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

The existence of West Virginia tells true.

So does this
http://civilwartalk.com/threads/map-1860-votes-for-secession-by-county.112261/

I’m sure there are literally stones for grave markers in Appalachia – there are other places too. The thing about those weathered memorials is you can’t always tell who, when, or what. You may well be making unwarranted assumptions about just what it is to which the stone testifies, unless it’s a story you personally know – and you don’t know all of them.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

This too.

http://www.swannco.net/1st_Ala_Cav/1sthurst.html

I can find more. History is what it is.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Hi JohnM

Notice that the men in your linked story “wore blue”. This debate is about symbols.

Your model is naive; it assumes a bell-curve is a box divided in two.
If your model where representative of reality, there would be no concept of a traitor, only of an enemy.

If your model where true, there would have been no war of Northern Aggression.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Hi Timothy
I can’t answer that because it’s gibberish. Not trying to be rude – it just is. That’s okay, maybe other people will read my post, and most of them will get it.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Don’t feel bad, I had the same issue. Timothy seems more interested in his own monologues than actually reading and responding to others.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

John and JohnM

We are talking about different things.

My apologies for not knowing how you think and responding in terms you understand.

I beg your understanding because the only thing I have to go on is your comment handles.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Hi JohnM

God is here, right now and the character of His people speaks to Him

To argue that a place, people or time does not have a character is …well…wrong.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

?? Okay, now I think you’re talking to yourself.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I’m not quite sure what you’re responding to, but it definitely wasn’t my post. You’re very good at accusing me of things I didn’t say.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Hi John.

We have a John, JohnM, and a John M

Sometimes you guys all look alike.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

No problem.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I’m sure John and John M are much better looking than JohnM ;)

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I wish I could see it. I sometimes wonder how different my experience would have been if the American I married had not been a Los Angeles city boy. I think California is beautiful, but it is not poetical. There are no ghosts here.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

We are those “ghosts” . You know what the most powerful ‘ghost” is? A “ghost” who loves. That “ghost” was you or me, who decided to love and cherish because…God (and you know what that means behind the symbolism of ‘fork in the road’, etc). When we love, we plant a flag. God then…moves out a bit…and we choose… The Confederate Flag is one marker of Love. So is California. So is America. So is Nigeria So is Christendom Of all the above, which lover never sinned? God has redeemed them all. Appalachia, the Confederacy, belongs to Him. Where lies… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

You are a poet, Timothy. You are never so compelling as when the poet takes over. Then you are downright lyrical.

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

But I misspoke earlier, Timothy. The part of California that touches my soul is the missions. I love the remote ones that seem almost unchanged in the last 200 years, and I imagine the Native Americans shyly coming to see what was meant by the ringing of the bells. I think of the Franciscan fathers so far from their homes and wondering if they would ever see Spain again. I like to imagine the soldiers, missing their girlfriends and longing to go fight for gold and glory. I think about the friars tramping over the golden hills and finding a… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

The ringing of the bells must have been a profound sound.

Have you noticed how much of modern life is just noise?

When I first moved here, I had a hard time sleeping because it was so quiet!

It must have been amazing to live in such quiet and then hear a bell like that.

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Sorry for the repeat, I thought I had lost the original so I rewrote it.

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I think your prayers for my friend have been heard, because after living in a tent on an abandoned lot for three years, he finally has veterans’ housing. I hope it works out for him. He gets claustrophobic, and alcohol is a chronic problem for him. His street name is truly impossible to write here, but I call him Michael. A still married lady living without a husband in the home has to be careful, and so there are limits on how much I can do. When I was first married, I thought I could finally safely bring homeless people… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Hi Jilly,

That is great news. I prayed for him last night.

I took in a homeless woman once for a shower and a place to rest while she got on her feet. I asked her to leave when she would not tell the truth. Without a commitment to truth, you can never dig yourself out.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Thanks Jilly,

I was just writing. I do not understand poetry.

Thank you for your kindness.

Please invite your hero to church or chapel.

God is working there.

Daithi_Dubh
Daithi_Dubh
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

We Southerners have been forced to endlessly do penance for our sins, both real and imagined, for too long, while our conquerors have, with what Robert Penn Warren termed, their Treasury of Virtue, strutted self-righteously in front of their own mirror, and, sadly and destructively, the world. The most important information about me, or any believer, is that I am a child of God through Christ; however, I am His child en-fleshed and emplaced in a particular place, at a particular time, within a particular family. Our persecutors incessantly and glibly remind us or those sins I referred to above,… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  Daithi_Dubh

Outstanding comment. Truly outstanding.

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  John

So… why do you think Christ told us to honour our fathers and mothers, and to not move the boundary stones set up by our ancestors?

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv…

Where I grew up in Florida, I did not see much Confederate stuff, so what you say would have made no sense to me.

Up hear, it makes perfect sense.

Our ancestors are here among us.

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy
John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Honoring a flag that your dead mother and father liked has nothing to do with honoring your father and mother, and by boundary stones are you referring to Proverbs 22:28? That verse has nothing to do with this. It’s about not getting rid of monuments or encroaching on another man’s property.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

The historical ties that bind are far more convincing than the warm spew the SBC and you are serving up.

You have lost legitimacy.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Just to be clear, you aren’t actually giving reasons.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Mr. Spock.

Love is not reason.
Christianity is not rational.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Of course it’s rational. You may not be able to fully understand God through human rational thought or come to salvation through purely rational means, but that doesn’t make Christianity irrational.

At no point do you have to accept a contradiction to believe in Christianity.

As a side point. Why are you even here discussion if you don’t believe that rational thought has a place? You literally can’t even discuss in a meaningful way without rationality.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Rational thought (dialectic) does have a place. So does rhetoric. You may not be able to fully understand God through human rational thought or come to salvation through purely rational means Thank you for conceding my point. Reason is after the fact. Of course it is compatable with Christianity, we use the tool all the time, but it is not the thing. Christianity (and symbols, btw) are much more than reason. Let’s take those artsy-people as an example. They are very good at describing paintings and why this painting is better than that painting and the deep concepts of the… Read more »

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I still don’t think I’ve “conceded” your point. The insufficiency of rationality has to do with the darkness of our natures, not the insufficiency of rationality, itself. If we, in our unsaved states, were able to take in all the information without the hardness and blindness that restrict an unsaved man, then rationality would have been enough. Of course, that’s not the case. Biblically, this is shown in Romans 1. It says that God’s attributes are “understood through what has been made,” in effect, that if not for our sinful natures we would be able to rationally deduce those traits… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Hi John, God Himself tells us “come, let us reason together”; yes that is part of it. I don’t think it is the whole of it. Don’t the scriptures teach that demons know the bible more than we ever could? Well, they are “rational” but they are not Christians. Clearly reason and rationality are not determinative When we partake of Christ and He dwells in us, it is more than reason. That “more” is what I refer to as “not rational” . I do not mean “not rational” in a disparaging sense, I mean it only in the sense of… Read more »

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Again, the demons don’t respond because of what’s in them, not because it’s not rationally knowable. The very fact that they shudder shows that it IS rationally knowable. They KNOW what terrible danger they are in, yet they don’t turn because of their dark natures.

Yes, there are extra-rational things that exist, but I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the original disagreement of this comment thread: whether flying the confederate battle flag is a good thing or not.

You responded to my last retort by saying that reason wasn’t relevant.

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  John

“Liked”? It’s a flag my ancestors fought for. The purpose of the erasure of the Confederate flag is to encroach on our heritage. It’s entirely related to this.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Fine, then fought for. Should the German Christians respect the Nazi flag that their ancestors fought for?

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  John

I think they can honour their ancestors while repenting of the sins their ancestors committed. As I’m sure you’re aware, most members of the German military during WWII were not Nazis, so we’re talking about a very small number of people here anyway.

So, let’s apply your point to the discussion at hand. My grandfather’s great-grandfather fought under the Confederate flag. What sins should I repent of?

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I have been waiting all day for the chance to quote “Barbara Frietche”:

“Shoot if you must this old gray head
But spare your country’s flag,” she said.

“He who harms this old gray head
Dies like a dog. March on!” he said.

Do American children even get to read this any more?

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

No, because it might remind them that the Confederate military was the party that acted civilised. (Admiral Semme’s Memoirs of Service Afloat are interesting on this point as well.)

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

In truth, ashv, I have never heard or read that it did not act civilized. Wasn’t the Union side considerably more brutal?

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

No.

Jerry Pournelle’s California Sixth Grade Reader is on my wish list. I will be buying it when I get a new Kindle (I keep breaking the things)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LZ7PB7E/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=20C3CXDQ7FB6O&coliid=I23TISUMNBSJV6

He to laments the loss of who we once where and uses that book to demonstrate the loss.

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I will look for it. Gutenberg website has a lot of really old school readers that I think can be read on Kindle. I love looking at them because they have the poetry and legends that I learned in elementary school. I can still respond emotionally to “The Charge of the Light Brigade”. http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html I believe poetry like that had a real effect on us. It sounds incredibly corny, but as a child when I had to face something unpleasant, I would think about the brave men and tell myself to toughen up. Even though I had no idea what… Read more »

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Is my question too inconvenient for you?

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I have often wondered that. Is it because we were intended to be rooted to a place, and to feel we are part of it?

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Timothy, the last thing I would ever want to do is violate the feelings of those whose dead are in a sense sacred to them. I cannot imagine objecting to a confederate flag flying in a private family burial ground. It is difficult for those of us who grew up in other cultures to understand how some Americans feel about their history and their ancestors. I grew up in a family that never discussed such matters; I never met half of my grandparents; their graves are thousands of miles away. I cherish and honor my dear father’s memory, but he… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Hi Jilly. Would you be equally willing to admit that there are still some Black Americans who use the Black Panthers flag to intimidate WHITE people or to outrage their feelings? Are there still some Black Americans who might use the Black Panther flag to indicate their sympathy, not with a valiant and doomed civilization, but with those people who genuinely hate WHITE people and dispute their right to full citizenship? Are there some who use the flag, not to indicate disapproval of horrors like abortion, but to indicate a wish for the return of … and segregation? Yes, yes… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I have no point. You have utterly disarmed me with your post below. God bless you, Timothy.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Which post? The one of farts?

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

The one about repentance making us, not less of ourselves, but more of the selves we were meant to be.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

That would be the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Jilly. Liberty is hard because we are so used to being in chains we don’t have the language or ideas of liberty. The free gift is hard to accept–it is putting off the old and putting on the new, but, initially, we only know how to think and behave in the old..our chains are familiar…so we cling to them. That bum who walks you too-and-fro–he is a hero. I am praying for him. If the Lord leads you to it, please lead him to the chapel or Mass to pray. if it… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I will!

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Hi Jilly, When Jilly repents, Jilly admits wrong and stops what she is doing wrong and starts doing what is right. Jilly is still Jilly. Does Jilly stop being Jilly? Does the act of repentance require that Jilly stop being Jilly? does it mean that Jilly is a different Jilly? No. Jilly is still Jilly. Before repentance, Jilly is Jilly. After repentance Jilly is Jilly. Do you not think it perverse, even of the devil itself, the demand that after repentance Jilly must stop being Jilly? I do. It is perverse because it is the claim that Christ’s grace is… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I think our posts crossed! I think what you say is beautiful and true, and I will save it.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

It’s the inability of conservatives to do triage that always gets to me

Its the recent inability of conservatives to define the signs and the semiotics that gets to me.

As recently as mid-last century, the Inklings wrote such that their thoughts today are influencing this depraved culture towards God.

Mention the name Jane Austen for another example.

Somehow, the desire to do service–to wash the feet of–a non-Christian culture became paramount.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

You are a doctor / nurse?

"A" dad
"A" dad
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

T’, As you may see from her blog and back story, Memi sounds pretty much Prov. 31.
After that, she sounds like a nurse.

Mark Hanson
Mark Hanson
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

One of the criticisms of the Puritans was that they considered all things equally important, and were just as ready to write 10,000 words on vestments as on the sovereignty of God. That is one reason they lost the third generation to unitarianism.

By not discerning which attacks are on principle and which are noise, modern Christians often place themselves in the same position: picky and prickly.

Of course, I realize that the Gospel always offends someone, but like parents with children, we need to choose our battles wisely.

Jack Bradley
Jack Bradley
6 years ago

I appreciate this post, Douglas. Looking forward to your further thoughts.

John
John
6 years ago

We know for a fact that the flag is a stumbling block for some people and I just don’t understand the positive behind holding onto the flag. How does it further the kingdom of God?

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

That Stars and Stripes is a stumbling block for some people. I just don’t understand the positive behind acting in defense of it. How does that further the kingdom of God?

(note to self–learn to develop a positive response beside the sarcasm you use to highlight the inherent contradictions in your ‘opponents’ comment)

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Personally, my church doesn’t fly any flag. No country is God’s country and no people, other than the church, is God’s people. With that said, I think it’s clear that the confederate flag poses a much bigger stumbling block than the US flag. The people in the US who are offended by the US flag is minutely small, but that doesn’t hold for the confederate battle flag.

No contradiction here.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Personally, my church doesn’t fly any flag. Then it is without salt and useless. A flag is a symbol for a thing. By being a Christian you fly a flag. Your very being is a banner beckoning all to Him. If you have no flag, no being, you are without salt. You are worse than an uncertain trumpet, you are no trumpet at all. Farts have more substance and far less smell. I will borrow from the Catholics here. The Church Militant hoists a flag. It is an invading ARMY planting a flag on a ground it is INVADING. (yes,… Read more »

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

What? I’m sorry, but that’s just non-sense.

My “flag” is the word of Christ and the actions of the church.

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Hi John. Symbols and semiotics. They transmit deep meaning. I am learning that not everybody discerns the importance of them, and I am beginning to suspect that a lot of people (like you–please, no insult directed) do not even see them. If you do not see the importance or the meaning inherent in the symbolism of a flag, then I cannot communicate to you the underlying ideas and controversy. “A flag is a symbol.” is as hugely important statement as “He wore furs” Behind both statements lie volumes of thought. If you cannot sense the import of either, then we… Read more »

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  timothy

When did I say it wasn’t a symbol or that has no meaning? You clearly think you’re much more educated than I am, but you seem to have trouble reading my responses.

I wouldn’t care one way or the other if I thought it had no meaning.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

John, you’re equating churches *actually* flying the US flag or not with churches making statements about whether other people outside of churches should have the Christian liberty to fly the confederate flag. That’s an absurd equivalence.

John
John
6 years ago

You’re right. Those aren’t the same thing, but I don’t think it goes against the point I made. Christian liberty isn’t the right to do anything you want without critique from fellow Christians.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

What, then, is Christian liberty, if not “the right to do anything you want without critique from fellow Christians,” especially when they’re speaking from a position of church authority and on subject matters that are biblically disputable?

John
John
6 years ago

Paul told people to not eat meat in front of brothers who found the eating of the meat to be morally wrong.
So if you can be sure that there are no fellow brothers in the area who find the flag offensive, then I guess you would be free to wave it, but I think that’s unlikely since such a huge portion of Christians see it as a direct representation of past racism.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Are you abandoning any defense of your last argument against the confederate flag that quickly?

ME
ME
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Good grief, if you think the flag is a stumbling block for some people, you should see what the cross does.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

Are you saying the confederate flag plays an equal role, or any role, in the salvation of mankind? If not, then I’m not sure I see the relevance of your statement.

The logical conclusion seems to be that we should never change in order to not be a stumbling block to those around us, but that goes in direct opposition to the clear teachings of Paul.

ME
ME
6 years ago
Reply to  John

My point being, “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.” So, for some even Christ himself can be a stumbling block.

In the world today, entire churches have embraced gay marriage and are now proudly flying the rainbow flag. How much we are willing to compromise under the guise of never causing offense is an important question. Faith is not like pizza, the goal is not to make everybody happy.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

We should be willing to compromise right up to the word of God. Whether to fly the confederate flag has literally nothing to do with the word of God. So it’s not important. If we can reach more people by not flying that flag, then we shouldn’t fly the flag.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
6 years ago
Reply to  John

“If we can reach more people by not flying that flag, then we shouldn’t fly the flag.”

If…

John
John
6 years ago

With that reasoning there would be no reason for Paul to say that he became all things to all people in order to win over some of them to Christ. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

He is the ultimate example of someone who gave up his entire cultural heritage in order to win Gentiles over to Christ in order to run the race to the end.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Becoming all things to all people would also mean flying the flag when culturaly appropriate.

John
John
6 years ago

Agreed, but I don’t know if there’s a big confederate flag waving group of people who need to be reached for Christ. It seems to me that those opposed to the flag are generally the group that needs reaching.

There may be times when this isn’t true, and I would definitely hold a different position in those times.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

The trouble I see is that the SBC isn’t just “not waving the flag”; rather they’re waving the flag of not waving the flag.

John
John
6 years ago

Are they? From what I can tell, all they did was vote to stop waving it.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Was the SBC waving the flag before the vote? No, so they can only be waving the flag of not waving the flag.

Daithi_Dubh
Daithi_Dubh
6 years ago

Indeed! Why should ANY denomination have a position on this at all? I’m a veteran, so I have a soft spot for the expressions of patriotism of my culture and region, but I have to say I had a problem with the display of and the pledging of allegiance to the American flag during a Memorial Day Sunday(?) some years back in my aunt and uncle’s little SBC church, led by the young pastor (an Army veteran himself). When I was still serving as an Army Chaplain several years ago, I conducted a memorial service for one of my Soldier’s… Read more »

John
John
6 years ago

So the SBC can never legitimate stop doing something? Ever? No matter what?

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
6 years ago
Reply to  John

They certainly can’t “stop doing something” that they aren’t doing to start with. Isn’t that obvious?

Right Wing
6 years ago
Reply to  John

Why then is the SBC spending time saying Christians shouldn’t fly the flag if flying it or not flying it has nothing to do with the Word of God? Not flying the flag won’t draw people to Christ. Only the Holy Spirit will draw people to Christ. If we witness and someone doesn’t want to hear the Gospel merely because a flag is being flown, then they are not being called in the first place.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  Right Wing

The word of God has told us to not be a stumbling block, to live peaceably as far as it depends on us, and to be loving and compassionate to the outside world. In the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23: “19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that… Read more »

timothy
timothy
6 years ago
Reply to  John

The word of God has told us to not be a stumbling block, to live
peaceably as far as it depends on us, and to be loving and compassionate
to the outside world. In the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23:

Yes, The SBC needs to stop their egregious behavior and let the South be the South and quit empowering her enemies.

John
John
6 years ago
Reply to  ME

There’s one absolutely insurmountable difference between celebrating the LGBT culture and not flying the confederate flag: one goes directly against the word of God and the other doesn’t.

We need to make sure that we don’t put our owe pride in worldly things in front of people, but we are not responsible when Christ, himself, is a stumbling block.

Jeff Wright
Jeff Wright
6 years ago

Mr. Wilson,

I’m very glad that this is the dose of medicine I took at your hand. Thanks for being gracious.

"A" dad
"A" dad
6 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Wright

Jeff, God is good! Both you and Wilson are having a great day! Not only does Wilson get to add another retraction and apology to his controversy library, (and people think he never apologizes!) but, much to the dismay of his critics, it appears that Wilson is not even close to being the biggest Reformed, Calvinist, Intellectual! According to the “Babylon Bee”, its’ some guy in Florida, about 1/3 Wilson’s age: “A local Calvinist’s sense of superiority has gotten so large it is now visible from low Earth orbit” http://babylonbee.com/news/local-calvinists-sense-superiority-visible-space/ Idaho is not even mentioned! ; – ) A sure… Read more »

andrewlohr
andrewlohr
6 years ago

Hmmm, I guess the Confederate flag was something of an issue in the ’50s and ’60s, but around A.D. 1980 when I was watching “The Dukes of Hazzard,” the “General Lee” with a flag painted on the roof was just part of the fun. I’d be amazed if Hollywood’s use there had any racist intent; it just fit the story. So taking that flag off the “General Lee’s” roof is not repenting of sin; it is falsely accusing the innocent. Go ahead and put as disclaimer before each episode, if you want. Courthouse flags, etc, have more continuity with ’50s… Read more »

Romanized
Romanized
6 years ago

Doug’s feigned ignorance of the symbolism surrounding the flag would be laughable if it were not connected to his paleo-confederate (some would say racist) viewpoints. The southern baptist are addressing this issue so late because Doug and the rest of the confederate dead-enders are later still. Just give it up already and maybe there will be hope of moving on.

ashv
ashv
6 years ago
Reply to  Romanized

Sure, just roll over and die. Y’all have been hoping for that for coming up on two centuries and it’s still not gonna happen.

Luke Pride
6 years ago

I think part of the point is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol, not a sin. If SBC was denouncing support for slavery or a stance that Christians were morally obligated to support a state cult, that would be clear. But to take a symbol and say “This symbol only means this, and everyone who uses it means this by it” is beyond their realm of authority. Let’s be honest, people where I live currently wear or fly the nations flag, and it stands for awful things to me. In fact a vast majority of what it is represents… Read more »

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
6 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

I wonder how many conservative female senators voted for it.

Arwenb
Arwenb
6 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

With any luck the next move will be to completely eliminated sex-differentiated uniform standards and fitness standards in PT.

They can make up the increase in female washouts by counting trans-whatevers instead.

mkt
mkt
6 years ago

Now we’re facing another crisis…too many darn white people at the Orlando vigil. What will the SJWBC do? https://heatst.com/culture-wars/mizzou-race-activists-declare-too-many-white-people-at-orlando-vigil/

jillybean
jillybean
6 years ago
Reply to  mkt

Tiffany Melecio sounds like a real sweetheart. Do you suppose that any parents see their kids carrying on like this on national media and cut off the tuition checks? Mine would have in a heartbeat.

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

The salvation of civilization could be a father cutting up a credit card and not cosigning for the student loan.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

LGBTQ Community vs Black Lives Matter activism. Gotta love it.

By the way, I doubt there was there Mommy and Daddy scholarship involved here. I’m thinking there’s some other source of funding. What would you guess?

timothy
timothy
6 years ago

As a matter of principle, the SBC should fund the destruction of Stone Mountain. Better, they should donate their time, lives and labor to eradicating the carvings by hand.

It would be a good start. Of course it will only be a start, but the principle is clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain,_Georgia