Letters of No Little Empathy

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Thank you for all your work. If you have a moment, would you mind providing a list of books that would help one think through the questions: “At what point should a Christian stand up to tyranny?” and “How should a Christian stand up to tyranny?” Also, I would love to know of any history books that connect the founding father’s Christian faith to their decision to fight for independence. Also, could you link any of your videos or posts on these topics? Thank you

Sarah

Sarah, I would start with Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos, published by Canon Press, and on the American War for Independence, I would then read Justifying Revolution by Steward.

Pink Spider Letters

We have been benefiting tremendously from your Blog and Mablog posts as of late. Thank you for this service you are providing to the church! The most recent one on David French and pink spiders was excellent. One thing we have noticed in Christian ministry is how narcissists and narcissistic systems are often propped up by extremely empathetic people. (Dr. Ramani talks about this on her YouTube videos dealing with narcissism.) We just came out of a very intense situation on the mission field where we had to deal with this kind of “toxic empathy” in a very big way. The whole thing feels like we are empowering evil while disempowering the good and righteousness. And we have seen missionaries so intent on “building bridges” that they are no longer connected to the mainland in the end. Yes, we are to “become all things to all people” but we should remain Christians and His ambassadors in the process. Thanks again for all you are doing! And greetings from Cambodia!

Ben

Ben, thanks much.

Re: “empathy”, Two additional scenarios I’d like to see addressed:

4) Bob accuses John of something personal. Whatever the case, Bob is not looking to file a formal accusation in court, but rather to endear someone to himself or his agenda. But it’s impossible to hear both sides.

While we’re on it, doesn’t a person’s trustworthiness come into play here? Jussie Smollett could certainly be a victim of racially motivated violence, but he’d have a difficult time convincing people. But if, say, John MacArthur claimed to have gotten milkshaked while walking alone, I’m pretty sure I’d believe him.

5) Wife runs to her best friend’s house saying that her husband is being violent and she needs a place to stay. BFF should offer her a room, right? Would it be wrong to take her side while she’s crying on her shoulder, knowing that she’s making herself vulnerable to possible betrayal?

If not, this seems like the guy who won’t give to the poor because how do I know 100% that the money’s not going to be wasted?

James

James, with regard to the first, it is certainly lawful to believe an uncorroborated report. It is just not lawful to take disciplinary action in civil or church courts. With regard to your second scenario, I have written about that kind of thing here.

In case anyone was still waffling on the empathy “debate”, Scot McKnight made clear in a recent Baptist News Global interview where this all is headed:

This derision of empathy relates to one of the problems with white male leadership, he (McKnight) adds, citing a dissertation written by one of his students, Becky Castle Miller.

“Her work has made me more alert to the reality of white evangelical men suppressing feelings, exaggerating rationality and combining such in the rise of masculinist white evangelicalism,” he writes. “Suppressing feelings has been the name of the game for many men in evangelicalism since World War II.”

Labeling empathy as sinful appears to be a power play worthy of controlling narcissists, he continues.

“Lack of empathy characterizes narcissism, and that was first thing I thought of when I heard about these recent denouncers of empathy.”

Keep pounding this drum, Doug – I think you (and Rigney) hit the right nerve.

Gabe

Gabe, thanks. This is quite a hat trick, when you think about it. Not only are we wrong on the merits, but we are wrong on the merits AND white. AND male.

Is Orientation Sinful?

I was watching an old debate of yours from 8 years ago where you mentioned that you didn’t believe homosexual orientation in the absence of homosexual action was a sin. More recently, especially surrounding the Revoice fracas, you’ve made it clear that homosexual attraction in itself is something to be repented of and fought against. Can you help bridge the gap for me? Is this something you’ve come to adopt more recently or do you draw a distinction between orientation and attraction? You’ve been a helpful voice of reason for me in thinking through these issues so any input is appreciated!

Here’s the link to the debate (timestamp 2:06:25).

Trey

Trey, no fundamental change in my position, but the Revoice move certainly made me refine my position. At that time, I meant that a repentant homosexual could expect his temptations to come from that direction, and that it was not a sin to be tempted. But then Revoice used that standard understanding as a way to carve out a space to be a celibate gay, which is effeminate, and which is a sin.

Sartorial

I attended a Southern Baptist seminary and currently serve in a Southern Baptist church. I have noticed a staple in our leadership that I would love to have some help thinking through. Is there a reason that so many of our leadership in the evangelical church dress as if they are trying to communicate that they are fashionable men? Why the cuff-links and pinstripe suites, bow-ties and tailored everything? I understand dressing in a fashion that is respectful, clean, and trim. However, it seems as if there is some sort of unwritten rule that demands men of a certain platform size must dress like a billionaire. Where does this come from?

Thank you,

Jay

Jay, the fashions change, but when there is sin in this, it is a sin common to those who are accustomed to be in the public eye. Jesus spoke of those who liked to wear flowing robes (Luke 20:46). It is a temptation for those who like to be looked at. Spurgeon used to express his distaste for such fops.

More on Masks

Greetings in Christ. This is not directed to a particular post, but is certainly regards a topic du jour. I am an elder in a local church within a town that just implemented another indoor mask mandate (which also applies to churches) per their board of health. My church, which I love dearly, is taking the line of submitting to this order, rather than, say, cheerfully disregarding it. If I was simply representing myself and my family, I would be coming to church and not wearing a mask. If asked, I would explain that I am doing my best to love others by setting an example of exercising our protected freedoms to worship God because I wish to see them preserved for my fellow saints and future generations, and in this instance, I believe the loss of such freedoms to be the greater of two threats (freedom vs health and safety). But as an Elder in the church, I’m not sure that’s appropriate. I believe it would be a sin for me to lead the sheep down a path of destruction (of which masks have become the primary symbol and expression of that path). On the other hand, my actions as an elder should represent the will of the eldership. Thus, the most peaceable solution for the moment has seemed to me to stay home (two weeks running), and this obviously can’t go on indefinitely.

The Pastor reached out via email to say my family was missed, which I appreciated, and suggested that perhaps the command to not forsake assembling (Heb. 10:25) is ultimate here. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

(1) Does the need to assemble supersede the manner in which we assemble (all masked up, veiled face reflecting a symbol of man instead of the image of God)? Does obedience to Hebrews 10:25 mean meeting no matter the conditions (take to the caves if we must!), or does it mean insisting that we should not forsake assembling in a particular manner, the way Christians are meant to assemble, not as slaves but as free in Christ (1 Cor 7:23).

(2) I noted above that I’d go to church unmasked if only a congregant. Would that be valid? Conversely, I do not wish to show insubordination among the leadership. Do you agree or disagree that it’s best not to go unmasked given I am an elder taking the minority view on masks?

(3) I made a formal request to our board of health to add an exemption to indoor masks “in such situations where wearing one would conflict with someone’s sincerely held religious beliefs.” They will take the question up in a couple weeks. My plan is to lay low and see how that shakes out. If they rule favorably, I think I’m clear to go to church unmasked as an elder. Even if some elders feel to see the point or are even upset by this, do you think it’s reasonable at that point?

(4) If the board does not offer relief, I’m back to the drawing board. My current thinking is that I would request to step down from the eldership (hopefully temporarily), and then come to church unmasked as a congregant. Does this seem like a reasonable option or is this not really accomplishing anything in the way of trying to honor the church leadership while following my conscience?

Thank you for all your efforts in thinking through the thorny situations that have arisen from the Church (big “C”) failing to say “no” at the very beginning.

JPH

JPH, I think you are working through this judiciously, and I think your plan of approach is a good one.

I am not commenting on any particular post but am thankful for most of them.

I would normally not ask this question of you but we have found ourselves in a strange position . . . no one around us is taking the same stance. I talked with you at the conference about it, but I am not expecting you to remember. Our kids attend a private, Christian/classical school(side note—started because of you!). We have been struggling through COVID and the lack of civil disobedience the school has taken. They sent out an email a bit before school started saying we were not following CDC recommendations to mask the kids for a couple of reasons. There seems to be little/no risk to kids, the masks we wore/required last year were the cloth ones or gaiters, and aren’t that helpful, and we think its probably not that great for them in the long run. This was put out by the board, which also has a pulmonologist on it. We were quite excited and of course they received push back. Well, then a couple of days before school started the local public health department required them (before it was a recommendation ) for everyone. My husband and I assumed(yea I know what that makes me) the school would agree to not enforce the mandate, considering the general thoughts/beliefs on them. BUT they caved. The mandate has gotten extended for another month and we are not optimistic that it will end after that. We first wrote a letter asking the board to reconsider, or at least allow for exemptions based on conscience. That was a no. So we wrote the board telling them we would not be masking our children . . . we do not think it is right to be enforcing something that is not in the best interest of our children, but rather in the best interest of the government and the few very scared parents. (Those families who are scared to even unmask also sat out of churches for over or a year, or our pastors who shut their church down for almost a year, and is now still requiring masks. We knew that taking a stance there would be consequences. And we prayed about it. The decision of the board is to not allow exemptions, except for medical, and that students who refuse will not be allowed to come to school. We love our school. We don’t want to withdraw from it, but our highly disappointed and at a loss for what to do. We know other families are upset and think this is ridiculous but no one else is willing to bear those consequences. We met with the two board members who have voted against stopping the requirement and are not impressed by their reasoning of loving your neighbor and the weaker brother argument. We want our kids to be strong in what is surely to come (we live in mini-Portland (aka Madison,WI) and the public schools are requiring masks outside and the teachers union all agrees to the vaccination requirement.) Our board has said they won’t require it, but I am not sure I have as much confidence. So . . . my question is, do we submit? Do we say we tried . . . and we did, but now is the time to step down? Or do we keep pushing? Keep our kids out until the mandate is done or our school takes a stand?

I would love some wisdom . . . as I have said, no one here is willing to take it this far and they are also some of our dearest friends. (most of who agree this is crazy, and some even think we should have taken a stand long ago, but since we didn’t its too late) Is it too late??

Thanks . . . thank you for your willingness to take the heat, to interpose on behalf of your congregation, and to speak truth when everyone else around you wants to hear flattery.

Tiffany

Tiffany, I would try one more thing. I would ask the board if you can keep your kids at home for the “month” that this is going on, and if the board would authorize your kids’ teachers to help you keep them current so that they can step back in when the madness passes. If they say no to that, then you have a tough decision to make.

Our church teaches from God’s word and they are like family to us. However the elders have decided to ask us to wear masks to church. In my conversations with them I’ve said I believe this WA State mandate is government overreach into God’s church. Their response is that they will go along with it because “it is not a gospel issue”. How would you respond to such a position? We have begun attending a different church body.

Jill

Jill, the central gospel issue is this one—”who is Lord?” And the fundamental Christian confession is that Jesus is Lord.

I am writing you from Calgary Canada and I very much hope you will have time to read and answer me. In the past few years Moscow, Logos and Doug Wilson videos have popped into my life from many and often odd encounters and angles. All in a good way. Only recently have I begun putting the pieces together.

If I’m correct a group of people sought to move to a place where they could live and work in some freedom in order to produce cultural change both now and in the future. You are largely a leader of this.

I have many friends who are being harassed and backed into untenable corners because of COVID but also the broader culture. We’ve been deeply hurt and abandoned by churches who have almost unanimously agreed with the government that they are ‘non-essential.’ Many are facing loss of employment and pressure . . . I expect I don’t need to elaborate.

We’ve created our own ‘school’ under the radar and our own ‘church.’ Again, not something the government would know. But more is needed.

We want to start a Moscow, Alberta. Or get out of Canada . . .

If you have any advice we would be most grateful.

Sincerely,

Tessa

Tessa, in order to give any sensible advice I would need to know more particulars. But in the meantime, God bless you all.

Vaccines and Abortion

Hello there. I was wondering if you could revisit the issue of medical testing on aborted fetal tissue lines. You wrote a post a while ago regarding their use in the development of vaccines. However, it seems that almost every common drug in the medicine cabinet goes through this type of testing—even Tylenol. Should we apply the same standard to these medicines as we do the vaccines? God bless.

Cody

Cody, I don’t have anything new to add on vaccines and fetal lines. But when it comes to this ghoulish behavior getting into everything, I need more information—and on this topic there is a lot of misinformation to deal with also.

Women in Church Leadership

I was hoping to get your opinion on an issue of women in church leadership. We are historically a conservative Mennonite and Anabaptist combination located in the Midwest, but most members would fall in the evangelical camp in my church with a handful of reformed folks. We have a great community and I respect the godly lives of many in our congregation. We have a single elder, who is accountable to a larger denomination and lay ministers who function as what is typically called an elder. Each congregation has a deacon but they mostly function as a pastor to assist the elder in spiritual matters.

We recently changed the by laws to reflect more of a non-profit organizations to help spread the load on these elder/ministers who had a good amount of responsibility. There will be directors of operations, financials, student operations, philanthropy, governance, communications, and pastoral care with sub-committees under these roles.

Our elder has oversight over all of these roles and the pastoral director must be a man but we are now opening the remaining roles to women. Historically women have had no formal role in any leadership position. I’m finding myself having some concern with the possibility of women leading the church in these “non-spiritual” areas but my leadership has the view that Scripture is silent on these areas and is only limited to formal teaching roles (the pulpit and pastor/minister) role.

So summing this all up, I have a concern opening these roles to women but I’m struggling to formulate a coherent argument based on Scripture but would lean towards some passages in the Old Testament that appear to teach against women in leadership of any kind. Would you have any resources or thoughts on the role of women in administrative leadership positions in the a church? I’m sure you have something out there but after a quick look didn’t find what I was looking for.

For context, I did just look and have read 25 of your books and read your blog multiple times a week. I have never written in before but thank you for your ministry and influence in my life.

In Christ

Drew

Drew, thanks for the question, and I agree that this is problematic. The place I would go is 1 Tim. 2:12, where two things are prohibited. One is teaching, which they are holding the line on, and the other is the exercise of authority—which administration is.

Eschatological Paradigm Shifts

I have a conviction that my worldview has to change, for it has flaws.

I’ve been following your blogs and most content you have written.

I started doing this some 6 months ago, when after 14 years of discpleship in a pretrib church—their worldview of the rapture is flawed.

At some point I completely submitted myself to Jesus ( as I thought I did in those 14 years after being born again and since then none of my labour has been in vain.

My prayer to God, was that I would really understand the calling on my life, by having the fear of the Lord and finding His wisdom and this was a result of asking God to have my faith in the Lord correspond with the reality I see around me.

Now I am on my way, but see I was taught many pretrib-dispensationalism, but now my worldview has changed and your explanation of eschatology post-millennialism is turning my life around. I am marrying soon, am blessed with a worshiping team around me, with which I worship God in church and want to worship Him , for He is all in all.

I keep studying the word and preaching it with passion, and am discipled in my church to become a pastor for a new to be planted church in my hometown.

But want to know I have he correct eschatology before teaching others and I want to find that, to teach, preach and proclaim he Word of God as He wants me too.

Can you advise a specific book, either by you or someone else who can help me find my way, and which explains that eschatology, so God will in His grace, grant met he discernment of spirits to speak his Word in His authority and in truth and spirit?

Any podcast that you can advise is welcome too, for there are so many, and I’d like to learn more.

I enjoy your podcasts and teaching, and I hope you can help me out.

May your work for the Lord be blessed, as well as you and your family.

Hoping for a response,

With kind regards

Norbert (from the Netherlands)

Norbert, God bless your studies. On this topic, I have written Heaven Misplaced. I would also recommend He Shall Have Dominion by Ken Gentry, and Postmillennialism by Keith Mathison.

Who Are You Going to Believe?

Your state is depending on its Democratic neighbor to take care of your unvaccinated sick people—see. Do you have a response? (A real one, not the typical right-wing “I don’t believe the news.” Your own governor admits there’s a problem.

Karen

Karen, which state is taking care of our adverse vaxx-reactions?

EO Stuff

There seems to be a growing trend of evangelicals (and even thoroughly Reformed folk) converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. What do you make of this trend and what resources can you recommend for better interactions with Eastern Orthodox apologists? Many thanks.

FA

FA, it is not that the Reformed tradition is rootless, but rather that the version of it that is presented to many North Americans is rootless. And EO seems, to some, like more of a religion.

Paul and the Greeks

Re: Did Paul Study the Greek Philosophers?

Did Paul study the Greek philosophers as part of his education?

AND . . . after he was converted did he appreciate and use what he learned from them—INSOFAR as they accurately described and explained and were subservient to True/God’s (i.e. the Only) Reality and would not contradict anything in the Bible?

One specific example that I’m thinking of is Logic … the Aristotle’s rules of logic, etc. . . . but other things too.

My assumption is that this question is a “no brainer” and the answer is “of course”. . . that ALL educated people of that day (Jews, Gentiles . . . and Christians) studied the Greek philosophers, etc. and valued them (in their place).

Thank you,

Robert

Robert, yes, I believe the answer is “of course.” And he puts the issue beyond all doubt when he quotes Epimenides as a prophet, “one of their own,” in Titus, and cites other Greek literary works (e.g. “we are all his offspring,” from a hymn to Zeus, and “it is hard for you to kick against the goads.”)

Go Where the Women Are

I read your post titled “Singleness as Affliction” a couple of months ago. It was definitely a concept I had not been exposed to before, and resonated with me very well. I am writing to you to seek counsel on how/where to find a woman suitable for marriage in this crazy culture. Most women I know that are my age (19) are either woke or very egalitarian. I pray to God daily as I figure this out, but I would love to hear your thoughts as well.

Thanks for your time,

Levi

Levi, this might sound simplistic, but I would make a point to go where the women are. Attend a conservative Christian college, or figure out which conferences such women attend.

Assurance of Salvation

Is it possible for an unsaved person to have a desire to share the gospel with others? Also, I am struggling to know if I am saved—it seems to be a thing that comes and goes. I know my feeling do not have anything to do with my assurance of salvation. But how do I know that I am for sure saved? Thanks

Taylor

Taylor, your feelings do have something to do with your assurance, but they don’t have anything to do with whether you are actually saved. Here is something that might help.

Getting Ready

RE: Seven Ways to Prepare Your Family for What’s Coming Dear Pastor Wilson,

Thank you so much for your faithfulness! Your writings have encouraged my family over the past two years, in particular. We even made it to Grace Agenda back in August and enjoyed the sweet fellowship.

My question for you has to do with the aforementioned article you wrote. While I found the article deeply hopeful and practical, I had a question about the “streamlining” point you made.

My family has been up and down financially with job loss and multiple routes of diversification, job gains, and major life changes (including another baby on the way) since the beginning of the shamdemic. We have seen the faithful hand of God through all our circumstances, but we find ourselves pulled in many different directions, at present. We are trying to build sufficient wealth in order to gain escape velocity from a deep blue state (WA), but we do not want to sacrifice important time with our small children. How would you advise forward momentum, in light of the point you made in the article to minimize projects?

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

CS

CS, while we should all do what we can, we are not obligated to do more than we can. You want whatever it is you are doing to be blessed by God. That’s the essential thing. And in that vein, I would seek to prioritize time with your kids. Invest in people first—but don’t forget the other.

Translations

“I prefer the KJV for three reasons—manuscript tradition, translation philosophy, and copyright issues. The ESV gets one out of three, the NKJV gets two out of three, and the KJV gets three out of three. But I frequently quote from the first two also.” Where does the NASB95 rank according to your scheme? Just curious . . .

Guymon

Guymon, one out of three, like the ESV.

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Robert
Robert
27 days ago

Pastor Wilson, Thanks a lot for answering my letter on Paul and the Greek philosophers.

Jeff
Jeff
27 days ago

Pastor Wilson, I greatly enjoyed your ruminations on empathy. Spot on. One of the above letters pointed out the problems with Mcknight’s “contribution”. >> “Labeling empathy as sinful appears to be a power play worthy of controlling narcissists, he continues.” In my own experience the inverse is true – those expressing empathy are the ones engaging in manipulation and narcissism. One approach I’ve run into with pastors trained in the art of empathy is to say “You feel the need to….” or “I sense you feel the need to…..” and proceed from there to immediately put you on the defensive… Read more »

Karen
Karen
27 days ago

So answeing direct questions is not within your capacity.

What do you have to say about Idaho burdening Washington’s hospitals with your plague rats?

Dave
Dave
27 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, what do you say about all the Washington folks visiting Idaho to escape masking while in restaurants, vacation spots, hotels or working for businesses in Idaho. They all go home to Washington after a clarity of mind break in Idaho.

There are multitudes of Washington plates at all of the places I mentioned. Don’t the cooties go both ways?

Mike Freeman
Mike Freeman
27 days ago
Reply to  Dave

You don’t see a difference between the people from Washington doing economically beneficial things like visiting restaurants, versus the people from Idaho doing economically draining things like spending three weeks in intensive care? The health care system is in crisis because of all the unvaccinated people getting Covid and spending weeks in intensive care. And at this point it is almost entirely a disease of the unvaccinated. There’s literally millions of dollars being lost to the economy because of it. Not only is your comparison not apples to apples, it’s not even apples to other fruit.

Karen
Karen
26 days ago
Reply to  Mike Freeman

Thank you. Spending money in a tourist business is beneficial to Idaho while occupying an ICU bed for three weeks when you haven’t paid anything to support the hospital is another matter entirely.

Cherrera
Cherrera
26 days ago
Reply to  Mike Freeman

And with the things like this going on, we can trust all of the data, right?
Leaked Video: Top Doctors Discuss Need to Inflate the ‘Real Covid Numbers’ to be ‘More Scary to the Public’ – NewsRescue.com

Interestingly, the Uttar Pradesh state in India (population over 200 million) is kickin’ COVID butt with under a 6% vaccination rate but heavy “I” usage. Between this and Israel not beating COVID with vaxamania, something isn’t adding up. But keep up with the “us vs. them” unvaccinated narrative. Sounds like you’ve been programmed well.

Last edited 26 days ago by C Herrera
Karen
Karen
26 days ago
Reply to  Cherrera

What is your source for the Uttar Pradhesh information?

J P H
J P H
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, You can review the argis COVID tracking portal and see the official data for yourself: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 Especially compare how Uttar Pradesh did vs Tamil Nadu which inexplicably decided to reject the use of Ivermectin as a treatment. It’s night and day. Back in early August, Uttar Pradesh, a state with a population around 240 million people, was tracking ~25 daily COVID cases and 3 daily COVID-related deaths. At the same time, with only 1/3 the population of Uttar Pradesh, Tamil Nadu was tracking nearly 2000 cases a day and 33 deaths. The government of Uttar Pradesh credits their success… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  J P H

Did you not realize that your links regard events from 2020, long before the devastating surge that ran through India? 85% of their official Covid deaths came AFTER you claim they defeated the virus, and most experts believe the true death count in India is 4x or 5x higher than the official count. Your great “success story” fell to pieces.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01059-y

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
Martha and Mary
Martha and Mary
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Of course he/she didn’t realize it. That would require diligence and a search for the truth.

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Not sure what is complicated about this…

The population in Andhra Pradesh is 50 million and in Uttar Pradesh is 200 million. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_population)

Total deaths through September 13, 2021 in Andhra Pradesh is 2 million and in Uttar Pradesh is 1.7 million. (Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1103458/india-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-cases-by-state/)

So in Andhra Pradesh, 1 in 25 are dying. In Uttar Pradesh, 1 in 100 are dying. Yes, I would say that’s a success story.

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

First off, you’re reading case #’s, not death counts. Second, you’re ignoring the fact that almost all the deaths occurred AFTER they had supposedly defeated the virus according to JPH’s claim. But did you also ignore all the links showing that Uttar Pradesh’s Hindu Supremacist government is massively suppressing their death count? The total deaths from all causes in most districts have more than DOUBLED since the previous year. How can that be true if they only have had a few Covid deaths like they claim?

https://thewire.in/government/covid-19-the-adityanath-government-has-moved-from-denial-to-intimidation

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Here’s another link on the data suppression. Official records show that total deaths in many Uttar Pradesh districts from July-March was over DOUBLE the total deaths from the previous year. And that’s even before their April-May peak this year. Yet the government is trying to claim just a couple thousand deaths. The actual # of Covid deaths in Uttar Pradesh has been anywhere from 10x to 30x higher than the official death toll.

https://scroll.in/latest/998069/up-24-districts-reported-110-more-deaths-between-july-and-march-than-same-period-the-previous-year

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes, apologies, I took the cases number. Mortality is 1% vs 3%. But I guess you’re probably right and we should just stop using early outpatient treatments and rely solely on vaccine protection, which is working so well in Israel.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
23 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

Joseph, Have you actually looked at mortality figures in Israel? Like Sweden, Israel has become a political talking point with very little connection to reality. Israel’s 7 day rolling average deaths peaked at 35. Translated to America’s population that would be about 1000-1100 per day, a number that we have regularly surpassed and which we are currently doubling. What is your Israel reference supposed to prove/support? Also, after Israel rushed out to the head of the pack on vaccinations they have since stagnated, mostly due to intransigence from their Hasidic block they now have among the lowest vaxx rates among… Read more »

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

demos, I did not primarily have in mind covid deaths, but rather, vaccine deaths.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
21 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

What vaccine deaths are you referring to? I don’t know the Israel sources well, but their excess deaths seem to track their covid deaths fairly well.

Do you have a source for widespread vaccine-related deaths in Israel? I would be interested to see it/them.

Jonathan
Jonathan
23 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

That’s a strawman Joseph, I’ve said no such thing. Anyone in health care would say that we should be using both the best prevention possible and the best treatment possible. Spreading provably false claims like saying “Uttar Pradesh defeated Covid with Ivermectin, not vaccines!” will not help anyone.

Uttar Pradesh had an absolutely horrific death count AFTER they instituted Ivermectin treatment, and they’re also bragging about how many people they’ve vaccinated. The claim was false in both directions.

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

From the article:

In Amethi, data showed that 13,000 more people had died between July 2020 and March 2021 than in the previous corresponding period. This was an increase of 1,700%. The official Covid-19 toll till March end was 39.

State capital Lucknow recorded over 30,200 excess deaths. This was 524% more than in the corresponding period in 2019-’20. The official Covid-19 toll in Lucknow was 1,211 till the end of March.

Yet you’re taking those tiny official death counts seriously as a “success story” when in reality the deaths were so extreme that crematoriums were running 24 hours a day.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  J P H

And once the Covid situation did become horrific in Uttar Pradesh, the government’s main response was to suppress all negative information including massively undercounting Covid deaths. That’s not much of a success story and certainly doesn’t sound like a state that had Covid under control with “Ivermectin”.

https://thewire.in/government/covid-19-the-adityanath-government-has-moved-from-denial-to-intimidation

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
JSM
JSM
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, maybe if you put on some more masks, stayed 12 feet away from everyone, and got a few more experimental vaccine booster shots your appeal to your gods at the CDC will be answered and they will give you some comfort by assuring you are safe from the big scary covid-19 virus.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Cherrera

According to their government 90 million people in Uttar Pradesh have received at least 1 dose of the vaccine, which is 78% of the adult population.

https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/covid-19-uttar-pradesh-becomes-first-state-to-vaccinate-over-9-crore-people-1853285-2021-09-16

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Not, I should note, that any statistics coming out of Uttar Pradesh can be taken at face value (not vaccinations and certainly not cases or deaths). Their CM is a violent Hindu priest who has declared it his goal to wipe all Christians and other “foreign religions” out of India. His Hindu Nationalist party is famous for misinformation, from the beginning they’ve claimed that Covid was deliberately spread by Muslims and that cow urine can cure it.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Here’s just one example – Uttar Pradesh’s covid situation was horrible to the point that hospitals didn’t even have enough oxygen for patients, and the CM’s response was…..to threaten to seize the property of anyone who published negative news about the Covid situation. And that’s your great success story?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-05-13/yogi-adityanath-s-response-to-covid-crisis-spurs-controversy-in-india

Ree
Ree
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My in-laws all live in India and I’ve spent significant time there over the past 33 years. The shortage of oxygen was, at least in part, if not wholly, because individual households in India were acquiring and hoarding oxygen tanks. The way people think and do things in India, and the way the system works, has to be experienced to be even remotely understood.

Jonathan
Jonathan
23 days ago
Reply to  Ree

While your claim is only part true, how does that change the fact that their death toll was horrific and Ivermectin clearly didn’t “defeat Covid” there? If Uttar Pradesh had already defeated Covid a year ago, then hospitals wouldn’t be treating massive #’s of Covid patients, TOTAL deaths wouldn’t have doubled in a single year, and individual households would have been acquiring and hoarding Ivermectin, not oxygen.

Ree
Ree
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I didn’t address any claim about UP shutting down the virus because I don’t know anything about the covid situation there except to know that I can’t draw broad conclusions about it from statistical data. Obviously all claims from various countries to have shut down the virus, or kept out the virus, were premature at best, and false at worst. But the Indian households I’m familiar with have been acquiring Ivermectin and HCQ and keeping it on hand and using it. To what effect, I don’t know. But the fact that huge numbers of Indians started dying of covid doesn’t… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Cherrera

This might be the worst exposal of the “Uttar Pradesh is the best!” claim. Overall deaths in Uttar Pradesh DOUBLED during the pandemic, and that was before they even hit their peak in April/May 2021. District by district, excess deaths were anywhere from 10x to 300x higher than the official Covid toll.

“UP: 24 districts reported 110% more deaths between July and March”

https://scroll.in/latest/998069/up-24-districts-reported-110-more-deaths-between-july-and-march-than-same-period-the-previous-year

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I don’t believe anyone here said “Uttar Pradesh is the best.” However, what I was trying to do anyway was compare the death rates to a nearby state. One did better than the other and used a different treatment modality. That should be worth something.

Now, if what you are saying is correct, that their death numbers are simply trash, well, then that would change the story. I can definitely agree with you that governments frequently cook their books. But that too works both ways.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
26 days ago
Reply to  Mike Freeman

Are you being deliberate in ignoring the reason for the comparison? Clearly the objection is that the incoming people from Washington help spread the sickness, which is what causes the problem to be bad enough to need to offload patients. How much money they spend is pretty irrelevant, unless you aren’t interested in covid problems and only economic ones. Note: I’m not making that argument. Just pointing out that you didn’t accurately respond to it.

marth and mary
marth and mary
27 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Sleepy Dave, it’s time for your nap.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  marth and mary

Stuff like this doesn’t reflect well on you and isn’t helpful to anyone.

marth and mary
marth and mary
27 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Thanks for calling BS on DW.

Karen
Karen
26 days ago
Reply to  marth and mary

Everything DW writes is BS. He’s a target-rich environment.

Nathan James
Nathan James
27 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Well there’s a revealing slip of the tongue. Plague rats. Some might have called them neighbors.

Karen
Karen
26 days ago
Reply to  Nathan James

Do you call liberals neighbors? Do you call feminists neighbors? If not, why should we extend you any courtesy that you won’t extend first?

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
25 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Because it’s good to take the high road? Because it’s better to live up to your own standards of courtesy and charitableness rather than live down to someone else’s?

Karen
Karen
25 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

No it’s not. You are blackmailing me for courtesy you won’t return. I’m not extending kindness or thoughtfulness to the thankless.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
25 days ago
Reply to  Karen

I assure you that Jill would extent that courtesy to you. You would do well to at least determine something about a person before treating them as despicable.

I also assure you that I, and many others here, would call “liberals” our neighbors. Even feminist ones! Indeed I do call them neighbors and I know and work with many lovely people who I think are misguided on a great number of issues (often in ways that don’t fit easily into a left-right dicotomy).

Nathan James
Nathan James
24 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

If someone doesn’t feel at least a little bad about calling her fellow humans and fellow countrymen “plague rats,” what more is there really to be said?

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
24 days ago
Reply to  Nathan James

I have seen and heard another people in my own tribe calling people “libtards” and the very clever “demonrats” (Democrats, get it… no?) to know this isn’t just a problem of the secular lefties. I hope an appeal to common humanity and decency could help, but I’m not counting on it!

Nathan James
Nathan James
24 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

You’ll note, I hope, that I never suggested it was a leftist phenomenon. Horrible as it is, America seems set on blood.

Karen
Karen
24 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I appreciated your earlier comment but I appreciate this one even more. Sincerely, thank you for acknowledging a vital truth lost on far too many people.

Karen
Karen
24 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’m grateful and happy that you think this way. More people should do so. My experience has, however, been that most conservatives call us feminists “feminazis” and tell liberals we’re responsible for destroying the country. Among the people who say things like this is Doug Wilson.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
23 days ago
Reply to  Karen

I honestly don’t think it’s “most” conservatives. During the first year of Trump’s presidency, I started reading the Breitbart comment board because I was curious to understand his appeal. If I had never known any conservatives in real life, I would have come away with a horribly warped impression. Just as conservatives would if they spent time on the Wonkette comment board. In public discourse and in social media, there is an appalling lack of charity towards anyone outside our “tribe.” But most ordinary people are just not like that. They want to live peaceful lives and not have to… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
23 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, I think most people here would call me a flaming liberal if they knew all my thoughts, although I view myself as a centrist with a strong partiality to liberalism as exemplified by, say, Bobby Kennedy back when I still believed in universal peace and love. So I am not sure if you have categorized me correctly. Much more to the point, I think that in our few interactions I have spoken to you candidly but with no lack of courtesy, thoughtfulness, or kindness. I think perhaps you are incorrectly assuming that the people on this board are monolithic… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a name fit an online personality so well.

Martha and Mary
Martha and Mary
26 days ago
Reply to  Cherrera

It must be embarrassing for you to be bettered by a woman. Hope your your wife doesn’t find out. Who knows where that will lead.

Last edited 26 days ago by Martha and Mary
Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago

While cherrera’s statement was trollish (as always), yours doesn’t add anything positive either.

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Thank you, Jonathan, for rejecting trollish and bad behavior from those who seems to be at the same side as you on these issues.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago

Bad behavior is bad behavior, irrelevant of what side of the issue they’re on. And even if I didn’t want to judge the behavior as “bad”, it’s obviously unproductive even for her own goals.

Blake
Blake
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

I live in Washington. I work in healthcare. Despite what all the mainstream media are saying, I am seeing more vaccinated people with Covid 19 than non vaccinated. I am personally vaccinated and have had the virus since. My unvaccinated wife and kids recovered quicker than I did.

So, my answer would be an honest “I don’t believe the ‘news'”

Cherrera
Cherrera
26 days ago
Reply to  Blake

You and many, many others are saying this. And don’t forget the CDC stopped collecting full data on breakthrough cases (infections among vaccinated).

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Are you referring to this data, Cherrera? It’s true that not every state reports breakthrough cases, but of the 25 states that do, all of them are reporting that only a tiny minority were breakthrough cases (usually 1-2%).

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/?utm_campaign=KFF-2021-Global-Health-Policy-GHP

Nathan
Nathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Blake

I live in Oklahoma. This has been my experience as well. I don’t work in-patient and cannot comment on serious cases. And I am only one man. But I have seen more cases among vaccinated than unvaccinated over the last two months. The good news is it seems to be slowing down again.

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Actual hospitalizations in Oklahoma are 75% unvaccinated, despite the highest-risk population being the most likely to be vaccinated:

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/unvaccinated-individuals-make-up-75-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-across-oklahoma/article_429f59b6-f6fc-11eb-95c0-53eb52f1b201.html

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Blake

That’s an anecdote, not careful data, Blake. Any individual person can have an experience different from the norm, that doesn’t invalidate the norm.

And even your experience was without context. What is the vaccination rate among vulnerable persons in your region? If only 10% of the most vulnerable are unvaccinated out of your patient base but 40% of the hospitalized are unvaccinated, that would be a sign that vaccinations are working very well even though “most” hospitalizations were among vaccinated.

Luigi
Luigi
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

You seem very sane

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
26 days ago
Reply to  Karen

Karen, you didn’t ask a “direct question” of any substance. You described a general situation and asked if he had a response. He could have given you even less information and simply said “no” and that would have been an answer to your question.

I’ve been a little irritated with Doug Wilson non-answers myself in the past but I’m not sure what you were expecting with such a lame duck of a question. Even if he wanted to give a 5 page answer he doesn’t have access to all the information necessary from the hospitals to usefully respond.

Cameron
27 days ago

@Cody regarding fetal cell line issues. I found this article insightful: https://cogforlife.org/2021/09/21/14-medicines-fr-matthew-schneider-claimed-use-aborted-fetal-cell-lines-but-do-not/. Bottom line is the majority of OTC drugs were developed before the technology to use fetal cells was even developed or used widely. Many of these drugs were subsequently tested with aborted fetal cell lines for other abominable research, but not in their initial development. However, many drugs since the 1980’s have been developed using those fetal cell lines; which requires some digging in FDA filings to determine which ones do/don’t.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Cameron

I agree with the COG article that we need to make more careful distinctions. Some drugs use “immortalized” fetal tissue in their manufacture (MMR vaccine, the J&J covid vaccine, etc.), others are tested on fetal tissues during their development (the mRNA vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, a great many pharmaceuticals developed since the early 90s), and others have been tested on fetal cells at some point after their development (acetaminophen, ibuprofen). These all have different moral valence and the differences should be considered. I don’t know of anyone who has laid out which recent pharmaceuticals have been tested on fetal tissue, fetal… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

There is an interesting take on thinking this through in the UK at the moment:

https://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/vaccine_mandates_and_personal_decisions

This particular constituency is broadly evangelical, often with charismatic leanings (gifts, not mania!), and originated as new churches forming after people left older compromised or dead denominational churches.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
23 days ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, I like the ThinkTheology guys, and I have followed them, to some degree, for years. And I am in general agreement with the conclusions in that piece, but I think they give short shrift to the moral weight of the use if fetal tissue in medical research. It isn’t just vaccines, experiments on fetal tissue are rampant in the pharmaceutical and medical technology world, and while I don’t believe it is a significant driver if demand for abortion, it does create a powerful constituency that is invested in abortion in a compromising way, and that- for reasons of internal… Read more »

Cody
Cody
26 days ago
Reply to  Cameron

Thanks so much!

Ellen
Ellen
25 days ago
Reply to  Cameron

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hospital-staff-declines-covid-vaccine-religious-reasons-must-attest-also-swearing-tylenol “In order to obtain a religious exemption from the Covid-19 vaccine at a hospital system in Arkansas, staff are also required to “swear off” common medicines like Tylenol, Tums and Preparation H.  Conway Regional Health System said it noticed an uptick in vaccine exemption requests that “cited the use of fetal cell lines in the development and testing of the vaccines,” according to ARS Technica. Matt Troup, president and CEO of Conway Regional Health System, said: “This was significantly disproportionate to what we’ve seen with the influenza vaccine.” He continued: “Thus, we provided a religious attestation form for those individuals requesting… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
25 days ago
Reply to  Ellen

I read the complete list of medications on web.md, and I’m mildly skeptical about some of them: acetaminophen, albuterol, aspirin, ibuprofen, Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Tums, Lipitor, Senokot, Motrin, Maalox, Ex-Lax, Benadryl, Sudafed, Preparation H, Claritin, Prilosec, and Zoloft. As far as I know, the first use of human fetal cell lines to develop medications was in the 1930s. On the other hand, we have had aspirin since 1897.

Kristina Zubic
Kristina Zubic
27 days ago

Isn’t it a common thing for wives to pick out clothes for their husbands?

Gray
Gray
27 days ago
Reply to  Kristina Zubic

That would be a strange phenomenon and possessing a mild fragrance of effeminacy. I have not seen seen that in my experience for the last 60 years, and knocking on 50 years of marriage. I say 60 because it was circa age ten that my father no longer needed to instruct me on proper masculine comportment. Sartorial instruction, elements of proper grooming, gentlemanly conduct, mechanical skills and principles of personal/familial defense were standard elements of “dadmanship”.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

I’m guessing many wives buy their husband’s clothes, even if they don’t pick out what they wear. It is a basic division of labor and talents problem. I never step foot in a store, and I’m only on Amazon if I need a tool.

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I can see that the past is another country; they do things differently there. My wife might, on very rare occasions, provide a clothing article as a gift, but it has been so unusual that I do not remember the last time. During my upbringing the idea that females would find themselves in a men’s haberdashery would be as unusual as finding a female in the men’s room. Creational distinctives were recognized as generally universal givens. And I would argue that apparel is, in certain respects, a tool.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

This seems like an issue that is properly in the realm of adaiphora. In some times and places men knit, in others women knit. In some places men milk cows, in others that is a job for women. Custom is important, and I’m a fan of thick cultural roles, but men buying their own clothes is certainly not a custom that has been delivered to me. Also, provisioning the home with clothing and food seems like a properly feminine pursuit and barring a barrier of propriety I see no problem with it being delegated to a wife. And yes, clothing… Read more »

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

In an irenic sense, I think that it is not an “adaiphora” issue, nor do I think that “certainly not a custom that has been delivered to me” might withstand close scrutiny. First, ““A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.” Intrinsic within that is the premise of “how do it know?” A standard must exist,the standard must be authoritative, and the standard shall be administered by men. Even if one delegates the purchase, if the style is… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

But a wife can be instructed in her particular husband’s standard and view of appropriateness. “Please get me a couple of white shirts, button down collar, 34 inch neck, 33 inch sleeves, a pocket with no monogram, and buttons on the cuffs because you always forget to take the cuff links out before you put my shirts in the wash.”

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

“But a wife can be instructed in her particular husband’s standard and view of appropriateness.” I concur except for the laundering. My wife is a launderer extraordinaire.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

Sure. I agree that there are potential ways that a wife buying her husband’s clothes could go awry (though there are also ways that a woman buying the groceries can go awry). But I think we are talking past each other… it would be terribly strange for my wife to just buy me clothes without my input. Instead, I will say “my jeans are all getting worn, could you get some, I like Lands End, but if they are too high get some Levi’s. Or, my dress shoes are worn out, grab me another pair of those Clark’s; if they… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
25 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

BTW, that comment didn’t post originally for some reason. So I mostly rewrote it in other places.

Wanted to add a note because it looks odd in cotext!

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

For some men there is also the color blindness problem. Any time I left my ex-husband on his own for a few days, I had to color code the clothes and leave a list. I think that most women who buy for their husbands do take their preferences into account. I didn’t, for example, buy humorous ties. Much though I wanted to.

JohnM
JohnM
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

During my upbringing, anyone finding themselves in a haberdashery was as common as eating at the kind of restaurant that requires men to wear ties – which as far as I knew was only on TV. Perhaps it’s not only the past that is another country.

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  JohnM

It was indubitably not a television product in the time and locale I was raised. Restaurants would routinely furnish a tie and/or a jacket if one were somehow indisposed for an unplanned visit. I do not remember a time from 1st grade on when I did not wear a sport coat, dress shirt and tie to school five days per week. By the time I was sixteen I wore various versions of three-piece suits for my summer job. And television had 3 black and white channels, and no UHF.

JohnM
JohnM
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

Sorry about all that. Except the television part – you were able to get 2 more channels than we could down in the holler where we lived, that is, times when we had a working television. Anyway, it sounds like you did alright in most respects. East coast?

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  JohnM

“alright in most respects” Middle Atlantic States, Solid lower middle-class. Smaller family (only 5 children), WWII veteran father (and Uncles, and almost every adult male in the neighborhood. I was raised in a church with a higher liturgy; Sunday worship was ordered and children were spit-shined: boys (like fathers) with a suit and tie, girls (like mothers) with dresses and head coverings. (A high-honor for me in single digit age was being entrusted to polish and shine my father’s dress shoes.) We were taught to pay attention because there would be (paternal) questions regarding the sermon. Any misbehavior in church… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

In the time and locale I was raised we went to a restaurant maybe twice a year, and they were certainly not the kind that would would require ties, even had it been 30 years before. I think you are tying up notions of class and custom with good order and faithfulness. I am a simple man. It is very easy to tell my wife what I need and for her to buy it because my requirements are simple. If I say I need some new jeans, she knows to get some Lands End dark denim, and if those are… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by demosthenes1d
Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

As you describe the process it seems that there is a possibility that we are using different words for the same principles. My point regarding the original post hinged upon the premise of “wives to pick out clothes” and understood to mean that the style choices were being made by a female (which I still think to be “out of order”). As you describe it, you are utilizing a logistics agent with a predetermined menu to select from, which is not how I understood the question in the OP. (IIRC, the OP context was regarding the subject of administration and… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

I think you’re right about that, Gray. There are indeed husbands who prefer to leave all matters about what they wear to their wives–balking only at what is uncomfortable or clearly ridiculous–but I don’t think that’s what Demo has in mind. I don’t think it’s wrong for a man who knows and cares little about what clothing is stylish and appropriate to ask his wife to weigh in, although I would personally be careful about not playing mommy. But most wives who buy their husbands’ bear his tastes and comfort in mind–otherwise he has the expedient of simply not wearing… Read more »

Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
26 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

“I don’t think it’s wrong for a man who knows and cares little about what clothing is stylish and appropriate to ask his wife to weigh in…” Laying aside “stylish”, since I’m not entirely sure it’s something we should always concern ourselves with, my own experience on this indicates to me that not knowing or caring about what is *appropriate* clothing can be a kind of childishness and not becoming to a man. My ex was intentionally ignorant about clothing–not only did I have to do all his shopping, but I had to make sure I didn’t spend too much… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by Sarah Jane
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
25 days ago
Reply to  Sarah Jane

Certainly it can be intentional ignorance, but I think a lot of young men grow up without fathers these days and don’t learn the basic rules–like not buttoning your jacket all the way down and not wearing black shoes and white socks. Childishness in any form is unbecoming in men (and women), but I think a certain amount of willful ignorance is preferable to the alternative–excessive vanity and fastidiousness. “I can’t hug you or I’ll wrinkle my coat” is unattractive! Stylishness for its own sake isn’t perhaps important, but a stylish appearance is an asset and is even expected in… Read more »

Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
25 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I’ve never net a man who was *that* fastidious, lol! My ex had some kind of complex that caring about dress was not masculine.

Agreed about fatherless men. And single mothers can struggle to push their sons in the right direction on that.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
26 days ago
Reply to  Gray

Youre right, Gray. In the context of the OP (which is vague) an objection may be in order. I was actually intending to add nuance between the OP and your comment: your wife may pick out your clothes in the sense that she gets them from the store, but shouldn’t pick out your clothes as in decide what you wear each day or what style you will conform to. Then we were just haggling over the details! I do think a wise man takes counsel on such matters from his wife (assuming she is a Godly woman). Of she says… Read more »

Gray
Gray
26 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Apropos as trivia, I can imagine the consternation of some if I were to present the challenge of heavy versus medium starch in the white, long-sleeved, French (not pronounced David) cuffed shirts; boxed, 7 each, from the cleaners weekly. This was too precise a task to place that burden upon Mom. Seven because one must plan for unplanned evening events during the weekdays that would require a fresh shirt. Hand-tied ties were protocol. School and dress clothing had varying levels of formality but were obviously distinct from work and recreation clothing. Appropriate would be a guiding principle and the context… Read more »

Kristina Zubic
Kristina Zubic
25 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Sorry for being vague, gentlemen. Dandies and fops were being discussed in the context of a letter above, and I wondered whether at least some of these men were wearing clothing of their wives’ choice.

Gray
Gray
25 days ago
Reply to  Kristina Zubic

Thank you ma’am. I will take it on the chin for inadequately understanding the context of your statement and starting the snowball.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
25 days ago
Reply to  Gray

I can’t tell you how happy I am these days to talk about something, anything, unlikely to provoke angry debate! I love clothes, enjoy talking about them, and like a rousing debate about whether Gucci loafers have excessively ostentatiously snaffle bits on the vamp. Unlike your wife, my laundering is only passable, but I can do an almost invisible French darn. Information which could be described as darned close to interesting!

Kristina Zubic
Kristina Zubic
25 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Excessive? Nah. Oh, can you do a French seam??

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
25 days ago
Reply to  Kristina Zubic

Yes, but I’d rather not do one on a curve.

Kristina Zubic
Kristina Zubic
25 days ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I can see why!

Kristina Zubic
Kristina Zubic
25 days ago
Reply to  Gray

What snowball? It’s a nice conversation! :)

Robert
Robert
27 days ago

Pastor Wilson, regarding your response to Taylor on assurance. …”12. When such believers continue to struggle, they need to be strongly encouraged to repent of and abandon false and unbiblical notions of what a “true” conversion must look like. If God had wanted everyone to have a Damascus road experience, He would have given everyone sandals and a horse.”… Thanks a lot for this, Pastor Wilson. “coincidentally” the Lord had just been showing me this basic truth recently… stubbornly, proudly insisting on some type of assurance not promised in the Bible. And oddly, this is not something I ever remember… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by Robert
Ben Greenfield
27 days ago

Related to Cody’s question about common products derived from or reliant upon research on aborted fetal cell lines, this may be useful: https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/fetalproductsall.pdf

Cody
Cody
26 days ago
Reply to  Ben Greenfield

Thanks Ben!

Steve Perry
Steve Perry
26 days ago

Pastor Wilson. “If” there were a kind of colosseum coupon to prove you attended the games and bowed to Cesar, would it have been wise for the 1st century Christians to duplicate said coupon, saving countless Christian lives?

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago

Pastor Wilson, do you have an actual response to Karen’s question about Washington having to take on Idaho’s Covid cases due to overcrowding?

Your response was a non sequitur – and not only did it not address her question, but it simply doesn’t happen. When vaccinations were peaking at 3 million/day, hospitals were relatively empty. Why do you think that is?

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

…Because answering Trolls is a silly waste of time?

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

He did answer her question. Her question was if he had a response.

While I 98% agree with you on vaccines Jonathan, the logic here doesn’t hold. All the unvaccinated getting sick today were also unvaccinated when hospitals were empty, and there were more unvaccinated at the time.

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

The point I was making is that Pastor Wilson’s suggestion that vaccination reactions cause a hospital burden is completely unwarranted. When vaccination was at its peak the hospital load was actually dropping rapidly. Thus vaccination side effects clearly aren’t meaningfully impacting the hospital burden.

The reason unvaccinated people impact the hospital burden more now than they did in May is because the Delta surge has now reached our states, which it hadn’t yet back then.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

One of the three major Spokane hospitals said that 80% of their ICU beds are filled by unvaccinated patients.

James Claypool
James Claypool
26 days ago

If the vaccine works the vaccinated have nothing to worry about.

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Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  James Claypool

Idaho is showing right this minute that unvaccinated persons can swamp hospital ICUs to the degree that everyone else is very much affected, even if they don’t have Covid.

Second, vaccines work well for those whose bodies can build a strong immune response. But for people who are immunocompromised or who have weak immune systems, it is far more difficult for the vaccine to work as well. Those people (not just in the case of Covid, but in all diseases) are best protected by enough of their community getting vaccinated to protect them from infection.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Both true. Both reasons to get the vaccine. Both terrible arguments for trying to force people to get the vaccine. So are we talking vaccines, or mandates? The first point is an argument that proves too much. Obesity impacts public well being. Should we legally mandate diets? Homeless sleeping on streets is certainly negatively effecting public welfare, but I don’t see any serious push to get them off the streets. The second point is too statistically marginal. You don’t design society around the rare man without hands, you graciously accommodate him if you happen to run into one. But again,… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

James’s point had nothing to do with mandates. My point was in response to James’s false claim.

As I’ve already pointed out many times before, Pastor Wilson clearly supported vaccine mandates in the recent past for much the same reasons, and vaccine mandates are already in place for numerous other vaccines, so that ship has sailed. And in terms of seriousness, Covid just became the deadliest epidemic in terms of total deaths in US history.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/covid-19-is-now-the-deadliest-pandemic-in-us-history

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

What part of “if the vaccine works, the vaccinated have nothing to worry about” is false? Do you know what the definition of a vaccine is? Are we talking about vaccines in general, or a particular vaccine? Are all vaccines the same? Are all diseases the same? How do you know Idaho hospital ICUs are “swamped” with the “unvaccinated”? Are all ICUs in the state of Idaho swamped? Does “unvaccinated” mean people who have received no vaccines whatsoever, or just the COVID jab? If the latter, then why the inaccurate term? How many people in Idaho are in the ICU… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago

Great gish gallop. To answer your first three:

1. Idaho is showing right this minute that unvaccinated persons can swamp hospital ICUs to the degree that everyone else is very much affected, even if they don’t have Covid.

2. Yes

3. Idaho hospitals on Sunday had the nation’s highest rate of COVID-19 among ICU patients: 61% (U.S. average was 29.6%), according to federal data. Idaho also had the highest rate of COVID-19 among all hospital patients: 27.9% (U.S. average was 14.7%).

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago

4. If you really want Idaho hospital statistics, including breakdowns by hospital, you can look here:

https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/09/22/today-in-idaho-hospitals-and-covid-19-patients-er-visits-and-capacity/

5. Yes, in fact Pastor Wilson himself said that vaccine mandates can be justified and are not necessarily tyrannical because it does affect others.

6. If you had any knowledge of epidemiology you’d realize that your scenario is incredibly unlikely, which is why you don’t need to reach 100% immunity across 100% of the population in order to reach herd immunity.

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago

7. No, that’s never been the only purpose of a vaccine. For example, when you have a baby your doctor tells you to get the flu vaccine for the sake of the baby. Vaccination is meant to protect the vaccinated AND protect others too.

8. This is circular – you’re just repeating the question that was already answered in my initial response. But you also included a false assumption – a vaccine “working” doesn’t mean 100% efficacy – the large majority of vaccines don’t have 100% efficacy.

Dave
Dave
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Idaho hospitals have problems because the hospitals mandated the jab; so doctors, nurses and staff were fired or suspended from working. The so called overwhelming problem is self induced and not because of the SARS CoV-2. These are the same doctors, nurses and staff who worked right through 2020 and 2021 without major problems and without the jab. The problem is not unjabbed spuds, but rather one of money. Governor Little is releasing some of the billions of Federal bucks to hospitals in response to the self induced problem. Follow the money and it leads right back to more… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
26 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Idaho’s hospitalizations and deaths are both peaking right now Dave, not before. And it has created an unprecedented strain on the system:

Idaho hospitals on Sunday had the nation’s highest rate of COVID-19 among ICU patients: 61% (U.S. average was 29.6%), according to federal data. Idaho also had the highest rate of COVID-19 among all hospital patients: 27.9% (U.S. average was 14.7%).

It’s telling that health care vaccine mandates exist in plenty of places, but Idaho is the place where hospitals are overwhelmed. Stop with the excuses.

https://idahocapitalsun.com/2021/09/20/today-in-idaho-hospitals-and-covid-19-patients-er-visits-and-capacity/

Last edited 26 days ago by Jonathan
Ken B
Ken B
26 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

For what it’s worth, the current situation in Germany is that 95% of hospital admissions for covid are the unvaccinated. They are now the drivers of the pandemic. The average age of serious illness is now 50. The 5% vaccinated who still get infected and need hospital treatment are virtually all with existing serious health problems and/or very old. No-one ever said the vaccine would be 100% effective, but that it would reduce the seriousness of the disease, its rate of transmission and thereby relieve the healthcare system. It has done that. The healthcare system in Germany for intensive care… Read more »

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, Would you agree that there is a strong incentive to prove the case that the unvaccinated are the problem? Or, let me ask it another way. Do you think that if the data actually proved the opposite (that it is currently a pandemic of the vaccinated), that the countries of the world could possibly let such a conclusion stand? The problem with these statistics is that we already know that governments would not, under any circumstances, ever let the data show that the biggest problem is with the vaccinated. And because that can never be allowed, it means we… Read more »

Dave
Dave
25 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, stop with disregarding truthful statements. Stop it! Again, you post as a social justice warrior and not a Christian brother and you ignore facts to bolster your argument. Stop it! Jonathan, it is not an excuse to point out why there is a problem. Large Idaho hospitals created their own problems by demanding the jab for workers. In Idaho, you must lower the number of beds, ICU or otherwise, as the number of qualified doctors, nurses and attendants dwindle. I don’t remember the exact wording in Idaho health rules, but fewer nurses means fewer beds and fewer beds means… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago
Reply to  Dave

I posted exact numbers supporting the claims I made with carefully cited evidence. Covid is undeniably the reason that Idaho hospitals are overcrowded.

If you wish to support your claim that Idaho has reduced the total # of available ICU beds since the pandemic began, then please cite that evidence. Show me a verified source demonstrating fewer total ICU beds right now than there were at the start of the pandemic. Without that there’s no reason to take your speculative claims seriously.

Dave
Dave
25 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you type that others are lying or presenting false information. Stop it! You do not present a Christian attitude when you do that. You are unable to see the truth when it is plainly obvious to others. You said you knew the definition of vaccine and then typed a sentence that showed you do not know what a vaccine, a vaccination or immunization really are. “Vaccination is meant to protect the vaccinated AND protect others too.” Number 7, Jonathan above That is a social justice lie. Stop it! Vaccines and immunizations protect the individual getting them, not everyone else.… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
25 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, The continued attack on Jonathan’s faith are tiresome. What’s more they are dangerous for your soul. By what standard you judge you will be judged. I know that I don’t want to be judged at the last day based on others impression of me in blog comments. I implore you to knock it off. If you want to disagree, great, have at it, but don’t moralizing your disagreements. What’s more, Jonathan is right that others here very often supply false information. It is hard to have a discussion when the content of the discussion doesn’t comport with reality. Often… Read more »

Dave
Dave
24 days ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, thank you for your input. I will consider it. For the record, I am not attacking Jonathan’s faith. He says he is a Christian. Good. What I take issue with are the subtle manners that Jonathan presents misleading or false data. I take issue to his name calling of others who post. Here are two reasons why I don’t write Jonathan off. He is standing in the gates and needs to learn how to present arguments in a Christian manner: “Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good.… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
23 days ago
Reply to  Dave

I appreciate your gracious response, Dave. I don’t think Jonathan is subtly presenting falshoods, though I don’t know his. It seems to me that he wears his beliefs on his sleeve and argues in good faith even when i believe he is wrong.

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, I posted the direct numbers and challenged your unsupported claims. If you dispute what I posted, use facts, not rhetoric.

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Let’s say for the sake of argument that most of the Idaho ICU’s are taken up with unvaccinated COVID patients. Let’s just accept that. Now let’s ask why this is the case, and whether the main reason is because of stupid Idaho rednecks who refuse to just love their neighbor and vax up. And that is where we part ways. Dave points out a reduction in capacity due to poor hospital policy. I point out the possibility of reduction in hospitalization if only doctors would adopt early outpatient treatment. Taken together, it is very likely that Idaho would not have… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Getting a vaccine to protect others is not new. That’s why vaccine mandates exist and are deemed constitutional. Why do you think the flu vaccine is required for nursing home workers but not for computer scientists?

Nearly three-quarters of people over age 50 say that all staff in such facilities should “definitely” be required to get the flu vaccine.

In fact, poll respondents felt so strongly about flu vaccination that 70 percent said that if they found out that one-third of a nursing home’s staff wasn’t vaccinated…they would be less likely to choose the facility for themselves or loved ones.

https://labblog.uofmhealth.org/rounds/poll-nursing-homes-should-require-flu-shots-for-all-staff-and-patients

Last edited 24 days ago by Jonathan
Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Getting a vaccine to protect others is not new. That’s why vaccine mandates exist and are deemed constitutional.”

I would just like to point out that it is against the law to force people to take an experimental therapy that is still under EUA. So far as I understanding (but correct me if I’m wrong), Comirnaty is the only COVID vaccine that got regular use authorization, but that is not actually being produced, so…

Jonathan
Jonathan
25 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Actually Dave, it looks like your claim is unsupported. Neither of Idaho’s main hospital systems have implemented the vaccine requirement yet.

Of Saint Al’s roughly 6,000 employees, only a small number — 0.4 percent — have quit and cited the vaccination requirement as a reason for leaving. Snide…said no employee has been fired for not being vaccinated.

Reeves said 98 percent of St. Luke’s staff have chosen to get vaccinated, up from 94 percent when the hospital first announced the requirement.

https://magicvalley.com/news/local/saint-alphonsus-st-luke-s-delay-vaccination-requirement-deadlines/article_ec746aec-e0c0-5b58-afe3-718f0224377d.html

Last edited 25 days ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My sister lives in Spokane. I have been hearing for days about Spokane ICU beds being filled with Idaho patients, resulting in surgeries being cancelled for local residents. When I googled it, i was surprised to see that this has become national news–along with Idaho hospitals having to ration care. And the respective governors of the two states have been duking it out. The governor of Idaho has finally encouraged people to get vaccinated. “The situation is dire,” Idaho Department of Health and Welfare Director Dave Jeppesen said in a statement. “We don’t have enough resources to adequately treat the… Read more »

Dave
Dave
24 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Neither of Idaho’s main hospital systems have implemented the vaccine requirement yet.” Jonathan above “St. Luke’s Health System in Boise, Idaho, will require its employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19.” (Beker’sHospitalReview.com, July 14,2021) Yes, St Luke’s mandated employees to have the first jab by September 1st. That mandate is paused, not revoked, but only paused. As soon as the requirements below are completed, the mandate will resume. “The compliance deadline extension will be in place only until crisis standards of care are no longer activated and/or our internal HICS activation level is reduced. At that time, we will resume the corrective… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
24 days ago
Reply to  Dave

Exactly Dave – the mandate has been held off until later and no one has been fired at the largest hospital networks. And the # of people who have quit due to the mandate was less than 1%. Yet you claimed their ICU’s were crowded due not to Covid, but to staffing shortages caused by firing people who wouldn’t vaccinate. Are you willing to take back that claim now?

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,
I’m curious, what do you think is the reason that early outpatient treatment is being withheld?

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Dave

I wonder why so many medical professionals are refusing the jab. Gives pause….

Joseph Hession
Joseph Hession
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

60-80% of those patients (depending on the study) could have stayed out of the hospital by receiving early outpatient treatments.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
21 days ago
Reply to  Joseph Hession

Joseph, What “early outpatient treatment” are you referring to? If you mean ivermectin and/or HCQ they are being administered to some. I know a bunch of people who got covid and immediately got ivermectin scripts from their doctors. I have reviewed the studied closely and I think it is very unlikely that it does anything, but I could be wrong. If you mean Regeneron, it is available for early outpatient treatment as well, though it is more expensive. In Florida and other places they have set up walk in clinics to get regeneron shots for free. The studies seem pretty… Read more »

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
26 days ago

The quantity of liberal trolls on here is proof that Doug is doing the right thing!

Elisabeth
Elisabeth
26 days ago

Being faithful to the Lord in confusing times, where people are either siding with truth of the gospel message or they are opposing it….they are either covenant breakers or covenant keepers. Sadly, God will anniliate the covenant breakers if they dont repent and believe….have a nice day.

Zeph
26 days ago

Taylor, you can be an unsaved person who thinks that he is saved and want to lead someone to salvation. I lived that experience. I posted my testament in the name link.

Robert
Robert
26 days ago
Reply to  Zeph

Great testimony Zeph. Thanks for posting it and linking to it.

Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
26 days ago

I feel like the gif really accurately illustrates the comment section here

Drew Thompson
Drew Thompson
24 days ago

WIsh it was easier to find the links you referenced in the post without “clicking around” – please share. Thank you!