As Is Our Wont, We Publish Letters

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Here You Go

I ran into your video “The Face of Jesus Christ” which is right on. I would like to have the text of this that you read so I can study the several aspects that jumped out to me, quickening my spirit. How may I get that text.

You have my email address.

Thank you

Art

Thanks

A QUICK THANK YOU.

As the Moscow community seems to be spreading to the ends of the earth via the internet, we are really experiencing a secondhand blessing of the culture and community you all have developed as you’ve submitted your lives to Christ, cultivating goodness, truth, and beauty that serves as an inspiration for many others to emulate.

I look forward to seeing all of the multimedia development and general content coming from Canon Press, Blog and Mablog, NSA, etc.

Thanks to all involved, and of course Doug for his willingness to put his name and reputation on the line as the public face of much of this content. God bless!

Noah

Noah, thanks for paying attention, which is the hard part. And look for a lot more coming in 2022.

Hi Mr Wilson, more of a general question than reply to a specific post. I’m new to your blog (and am not even in the same hemisphere as America!), but get the sense you are a Christian leader without compromise on biblical teaching and Christian living, no matter what waves of sociopolitical or cultural storms batter the Church. With this in mind, your opinions and input I can trust more so than even asking my pastor for example.

I’ve been looking to consolidate my faith for a while, especially thinking about having a family and what or how to teach them, and thought some creed-like catechisms on various subjects, particularly those currently under attack such as the family vs secular hatred of the family, man and woman vs the GayGB, and such things.

Such ‘creeds’ would be punchy orthodox summaries of what you believe, a catechism or statement of faith if you would, and are meant to be simple all-rounders to extensive topics. Like the creeds of old, they could be in response to unbiblical teaching that has crept up in our age, false teaching, dangerous social leanings etc. They wouldn’t be the sort to recite out loud in church right after the Lords Prayer or before the Nicene creed, or to judge a person’s salvation but perhaps in a personal or family setting. (yes a long or impossible way off for me but I like to think of such things.) Some might be ‘it is necessary to believe X to be saved’, or ‘a Christian ought to believe X’, or even distinguish sections or points as core Gospel issues or ‘non-essentials’. Of course there could be something like this I forgot of or don’t know of.

If you were to write new Creeds to summarise your biblically and logically based beliefs about hot issues facing the church and society in the lsat hundred years and future looking, what would they be and what format would they follow?

Thank you and blessings to you and your family from the southern tip of Africa

Doug

Doug, I would recommend a couple of things. For review of what the historic Reformed position has been, I would recommend the Westminster Confession. Linked is my study guide to that confession, a book called Westminster Systematics. On some of the more contemporary issues that the historic creeds did not address, I would recommend this publication, coming to you from New St. Andrews.

Widowed

I have enjoyed your “letters” counseling people in various situations over the years. I usually wasn’t the intended audience, but I saw the wisdom in your counsel. I now find myself in a situation where I could use some of your letters. I am 47 and my wife of 22 years died on September 17 this year. She was a good and godly wife (not perfect, of course. No pedestals here, but a good wife) Her health had degraded for years, but I was always trying to care for her and look for the answer to her problems. I now find myself dealing with losing my wife and best friend, learning how to pay household bills, still working, dealing with three children (all adults) who process things very differently. All of this is while living in a rental house because we had a house fire in July and they’re still working on it. I don’t really want to move back there, but I don’t know what to do. While few people may find themselves in my unique position, I’m sure some of the things are common. Perhaps you could do one of your series of letters to those of us who have lost a spouse and in many ways feel lost themselves. I know I didn’t really lose her—I know where she is and will see her again someday, but I still get overwhelmed at times. I’m writing this email through tears, so please excuse any spelling errors

Charles

Charles, very sorry for your loss. From this distance, I know that I cannot say or do anything that will make it “better,” but I think I can say something that will make it less difficult. Lean in, and don’t shrink back. Don’t withdraw into isolation. Even though it is difficult to be around others who aren’t in your position, make sure to make a deliberate choice to be around others in those moments when you don’t particularly feel like it. This would particularly apply to church, and to family. God bless.

Comradeship

Dear Pastor. I work shoulder to shoulder with unbelievers night after night, I’ve achieved a certain comradeship with these fellows, we are a tight knit group of friends , yet they are as fragmented and irrational and close-minded as any in the world . Does the fault lie in myself?.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated very much

Ted

Ted, if you fit right in, then that would be a problem. But if you are the Jesus freak, and everyone knows it, and you get along well, I don’t see that as a problem. If a crisis were to arise, would they look to you for anything?

Glad for an Opportunity to Address This

“ wives are not commanded to love their husbands“

~Douglas Wilson

Brother Wilson,

The long letter below addresses an error I have heard you teach that I believe is really hurting marriages, and I believe once you read this you will agree that a clearer exegesis and maybe retraction of former things said/written is needed.

It has to do with your statement “wives are not commanded to love their husbands“

You are not the first person I’ve heard make this statement about marriage, but you do have the unfortunate honor of being the last and therefore you get the letter. Congratulations. Being the last isn’t your only qualification I considered, however. I also believe you are best suited to correct the error I am speaking of with biblical, logical remediation in a complete way that would be helpful in correcting other pastors and teachers and counselors who continually repeat this error.

I will add one footnote, I have not read all of your books and only scanned your book for classical Christian schools when I helped found a school in Tennessee several years ago, so a fuller explanation of “wives are not commanded to love their husbands“ may be found in one of your other sources, but it wasn’t in any of the videos on YouTube where I’ve heard you say this. And I haven’t heard any of the other marriage counselors pastors teachers etc. give any helpful qualifiers that let us know they don’t really mean what they just said.

This idea that wives are never told to love their husband was said in reference to one of several passages where we are instructed something along the lines of,

“Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.”

Colossians 3.18-19

It’s amazing to me how many people (yourself included) repeat this line, that husbands are commanded to love their wives BUT wives are NOT commanded to love their husbands, just respect them. Really?? So are women supposed to somehow be relieved that they don’t have to actually LOVE their husbands?

Do the advocates of loveless wives find any other groups mentioned in the Bible where you can get off the hook for actually NOT loving someone? Or is the asterisk only found beside husbands? Sheesh.

According to these teachers of the “respect is the only requirement” crowd, husbands rank somewhere well below your worst enemies. Even enemies get to be loved.

Stinks to be a husband I guess.

IF this were correct, which it is not, and the, “wives aren’t commanded to love their husbands”, crowd wanted to be completely accurate to the Bible, maybe they should just say, “only young woman have to love their husbands, but they can stop once they get a little older.”(See Titus) Do you really think Paul is telling Titus to have the the older women to instruct the younger women “do as I say not as I do”. No, plainly he tells them to teach the younger women to “LOVE” their husbands and children.

Or would you concede this point from Scripture and say, “husbands at least qualify for the same general kind of love that wives give to their children and their enemies, but nothing more.”

“…train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.”

Titus2.4-5

If you are taking the position that wives are not commanded to love their husbands in a unique way that is different from how they would love their enemies, and that the respect they have for their husbands would be similar to what they have for the policeman that just pulled them over, then I would ask you this:

If marriage is representative of Christ and the church, and you are correct about wives not being told to love their husbands, then why didn’t Solomon just say:

“Let her RESPECT fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her RESPECT.”

~Solomon, Proverbs

Yes, Solomon has much to say about husbands and wives loving, many of the references in Song of Songs of course are related to the one flesh, sexual nature of husband and wife love. Sadly, this particular expression of married love has been downgraded by women in the church and sits somewhere next to cooking, dish washing and laundry as something a kind, loving, spiritual man should never expect from his wife with any more frequency than a solar eclipse. And yes, I do believe that is a primary expression of the uniqueness of a wife’s love to her husband. If all of the marriage counselors out there are right, and a man’s primary need in marriage ISN’T love (expressed with some kind of affection and genuine feelings) and IS respect and encouragement, then I would ask them to take a poll of married men under the age of 70, to see how many would be willing to trade “yes sirs” and “atta boys” for a sexless marriage.

If husbands and wives are supposed to be representative of the church as the bride of Christ and Christ as bridegroom, then should we not also conclude that since wives don’t have to love their husbands, the church doesn’t have to love Jesus, just respect him?

This is what happens when we want to be seen as clever, straining to find something “new” in the Bible that no one else has thought of.

It’s sad that this is being taught to women as some kind of consolation- “don’t worry ladies, you don’t have to actually love him. Just grit your teeth and say, “yes sir.””

That’s some kind of really sick idea of marriage, wouldn’t you agree?

Wonder how many men fall into adultery because they felt a lack of respect? Wonder how that group stacks up to the ones that fall because they felt the lack of love?

Why don’t we find these men who are walking away from their marriages due to lack of respect, forming a line outside an army recruiters office to become drill sergeants, so they can fill that respect void they are suffering from?

If a husband should have no expectation that once married, his wife will continue to love him, even without a command to do so, (again, I contend wives are commanded to love their husbands) then maybe men should just forego marriage, move next-door to someone nice and attractive, and hope her pastor tells her to love her neighbor.

Okay, Brother Wilson, I’m finished. As you may have gathered, the “wives aren’t commanded to love their husbands” line hit a personal nerve with me, and I did my best to address it in a “Wilson-like“ fashion, giving the best imitation of your witty writing style that I could come up with in the 15 minutes of blowing leaves off of my yard that it took me to think this through. Hope that made it a more interesting read for you and that the fact that it is personal and flavored as such doesn’t reduce the seriousness with which you take my letter. Looking forward to your response.

PS, I don’t normally include my middle initial to things but I thought it added weight and made me look a little more intelligent than I really am. I’m really just plain old David.

David

David, thanks for taking the time to write this. Fortunately, we don’t have to disagree. On this subject, I teach that this is a matter of emphasis, not exclusion. The thing that wives need to work on is respect, and the thing that husbands need to focus on is love. Of course, men are to respect their wives—Christians are to honor all men, and so how much more our wives? Of course, wives are to love their husbands—Christians are commanded to love everyone, and so how much more would this apply to husbands? The thing that Paul does not specifically instruct husbands and wives to do is not because they don’t have to do them, but because they are probably already doing them. The thing they have to work on is the thing they don’t do, and which the other person very much needs. And to be clear, I have taught and emphasized this kind of balance in multiple places.

Doctrinal Arguments in Marriage

I am 24 and am newly married (7 months as of the beginning of this month). One of the ongoing arguments my wife and I have is on the security of salvation. Even though she believes that salvation happens by God’s power and that once someone receives the Holy Spirit they are new creations, she still believes that people can lose their salvation if they behave wicked enough. She supports this belief with passages such as Psalm 69:28, Romans 11:23-24, Revelation 2:5 and 22:19 because she feels that these passages should be taken seriously even though contextually they don’t speak to one’s salvation.

It has turned into a difficult conversation to bring up because she often turns emotional quickly and views my disagreement as almost a personal attack against her and I get accused of not listening well to what she is saying.

So I am asking for insight and strategy. I want to be able to have these conversations with her and lead her well spiritually while also being able communicate to her that I am listening and not launching a personal attack on her. I don’t yell at her or raise my voice and try to ask questions rather than talk down to her. Any insight will be a blessing.

Thanks for your blogs, videos, books, etc. I just discovered all of the resources that you, Canon, and Christ Kirk earlier this summer and they have been immensely helpful in my walk with God. Y’all successfully convinced another Arminian dispensationalist of the reformed Postmill perspective. Got lots to learn!

Matt

Matt, I would honestly encourage you to do whatever you can to avoid debating this kind of thing with your wife. Just love her and treat her right. Don’t debate the love of the Father for you—a love that will remain faithful to us regardless of our failures. Rather model that kind of love for her. You love her that way. And love her that way until you can have a conversation about the doctrine without it seeming unloving to her.

Ye Old Headcoverings

Let me begin by again expressing my gratitude for your ministry. Please stay encouraged that your labors are blessing others.

Someone wrote in this last Tuesday and made a passing comment to your view on headcoverings. Previously you’ve indicated that you understand a woman’s long hair to be the covering spoken about in 1 Corinthians 11. But does it really do justice to the full passage? Yes, the long hair is a covering (referred to in verses 14-15 of 1 Corinthians 11) but there also seems to be a reference to a removable covering (verse 5 and 10).

I’m not sure how to make sense of verse 6 if long hair is the only covering Paul has in mind. Just try substituting long hair where you see the word covering. “If you do not have long hair you should also cut it short?” It doesn’t seem to fit and I’m not sure what to do with that word “also” in there.

The fact that Paul only commands covering for certain times seems to hint that he has a removable covering in mind. Or what would only specific contexts, like praying or prophesying, even be a part of the command?

Do you think that it’s possible that when Paul references a woman’s long hair as her covering he says this not to define what he had commanded in verses 4-13, but to support his argument for a physical covering?

In other words, it’s odd that Paul only provides the “long hair” explanation at the very end of the passage, seemingly in support of the point he has made earlier.

Given the understandings of Augustine, Martin Luther, John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, and other respected teachers on the topic it doesn’t seem like a physical covering should be ruled out without careful exegesis. How do you sort though this?

Thank you for thoughtfully considering the matter.

AC

AC, I don’t want to rule out a physical covering. There are some women at Christ Church who cover their heads during our worship service, and we have no problem with that. And the issue is not whether artificial coverings violate the scriptural requirement of a submissive demeanor in women, because I don’t believe they do. The issue is whether that demeanor can be achieved without artificial means, which I believe Paul urges. And so if a woman has really short hair, such that it cannot provide that kind of covering, she should go whole hog and shave her head. I have read somewhere that the sacred prostitutes at Corinth shaved their heads that way, and so the argument would be a reductio—if you are going to be partly abandoned, then why not be completely abandoned? But I have not been able to confirm this.

Safety First?

Greetings from the United Kingdom and many thanks to God and to you for your ministry.

I was wondering whether you had any thoughts on how an elder should balance his duty to visit the sick and to pray over and anoint them (Jam 5:14), with his care for his own family, especially if some of them are weak etc. and it would likely be very problematic if they became ill.

The effectual prayer that heals in James is the prayer of faith so is that the end of it? It also says that it is the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man so it righteous to disregard all possible consequences?

I’m interested in the general thinking and question but as an added bonus would the response look much different if you were a young church which started in the lockdowns and has a regular preacher but hasn’t appointed any elders yet?

Stephen

Stephen, a minister has a duty to his flock, and he also has a duty to protect his family from undue risk. What to do in a particular situation will always be a judgment call. But if a man occupies a calling that brings risk with it (as the ministry does), then to be the family of that minister also entails risk. And that, in my view, is a good thing. Check out a title that Canon Press released last year

Mandatorians

Love the “contagious” new label for our COVID commanders (the Mandatorians) . . . but one huge problem is evident with your article: no Baby Yoda!

Brett

Brett, yes, but I was laboring under the difficulty of not knowing anything about Baby Yoda.

Enjoyed “The Mandatorians”. It is interesting to track your cogent arguments from here in Melbourne, Australia.

My state is 91% double vaccinated. The Victorian state Premier is congratulating all on a job well done despite the fact that hardly anyone can go to work or participate in society without their COVID vaccine pass. Over recent weeks we have seen some of the largest protests ever in Melbourne. These are against vaccine mandates and newly passed “Pandemic” laws. Of course these crowds of 60,000+ are dismissed in the usual way – “Extremists”, “Anti-vaxxers”.

The unvaccinated cannot attend church. I see one or two pastors writing letters of complaint to government MP’s about this whilst at the same time saying how they believe the vaccine to be a good thing and urge all to get it. Others are just hoping that it all ends soon and they can stop having to think about the issues and awkward questions that come with hanging a “Do Not Enter” sign on the church door for the unvaccinated.

Victoria’s neighbouring state of New South Wales has set a date of Dec 15th for when the unvaccinated are allowed back into the world. For us Victorians —no such promise. It might be sooner it might be later. We also might need a booster the Premier tells us.

The vaccine is a false idol. We worship at it’s feet and ex-communicate any who blaspheme it’s name.

Regards

Andrew

Andrew, thanks for the report. All of this that they are doing is wicked, and no less wicked for being so stupid.

Garden City

Revelations 22:2 describes the New Jerusalem as a bit of a return to Eden, with a river flowing through its midst, a tree of life with fruit-laden branches and leaves for the healing of the nations, and a place where we can once again walk in peace with God.

But the New Jerusalem is also painted in Revelations 21 and 22 as a “garden-city.” Do you think that, especially from a post-millennial standpoint, this means that paved streets, cars, technology, skyscrapers, computers and the like—or perhaps futuristic flying vehicles, shiny spaceships or fancy submarines—will be a feature of the New Jerusalem? I’m just trying to mentally overcome the seeming paradox of pollution, traffic, slow internet (ha!) and the like being part of our eternal existence and curious if that’s something you’ve thought about.

Ben

Ben, I think the stumbling block here is how the science fiction writers (the utopians and dystopians both) have painted the future. Those who describe it positively describe it in terms of plastic and titanium, as though the future was going to be like the Jetsons. But I much prefer the green Edenic picture that Scripture paints. In the final cities, the garden motif is going to be predominant.

What Is Instability Then?

In one of your posts you say, referring to feminism and feminists, if I remember correctly, that men should not have sex with unstable women. I agree completely, and I do not mean to be flippant or insincere with my question. Would you advise a young man to break off dating a godly girl whom he intends to marry, and who has a problem or a burden of anxiety?

In other words, would this be something you would put under what you mean as unstable? I am dating a girl who I very much like and who I believe is good for me, and I believe I also am good for her. She is godly and loves the Lord, and I am convinced would be a great helper to me. But she does have something of a recurring pain, as far as I can tell, with anxiety. In all fairness, I also have a problem with anxiety.

Your thoughts on this are coveted.

Thank you kindly.

Ryan

Ryan, by “unstable women,” I was not referring to ordinary people with ordinary problems. I was talking about wild emotional swings, unsubstantiated accusations, fits of rage, and the like. If you would like to marry your girl, I would encourage you to propose by this time next week.

Regulative Principle

I assume you hold to the Regulative Principle for Sabbath worship. If so, how do you square that position with the celebration of Christmas and the use of non-Psalms in Sabbath worship?

Thanks for your ministry. It has been a huge blessing to me.

BJ

BJ, I believe that consistent Protestants must hold to the regulative principle in some fashion, but I do not hold to the stricter forms of it (e.g. “that which is not expressly warranted in Scripture is prohibited”). Rather I hold to the form that Hughes Oliphant Old articulated, which is, “worship must be in accordance with Scripture.” If someone asks about any element of our worship, we need to be able to show them in Scripture why we are doing that. With regard to worship, our church has two worship services a year which are not Lord’s Day services—Christmas Eve and Good Friday. Because they are not required of us in Scripture, we do not require them of our parishioners. Our sanction would be the fact that the Lord Jesus observed Hanukah (John 10:22-24), which was not a festival required by the law. And Hezekiah composed a song that was not included in the psalter, and yet was sung in the house of the Lord (Is. 38:20). There are other issues and arguments, but that is the center of it.

An Oblique Argument

I have been watching your videos and I deeply appreciate what you are doing. My church is “fiddling while Rome burns,” I fear.

Deuteronomy 23:1: One of the videos alludes to this. I realize that there are ceremonial commandments which do not apply today, however, there is usually some principle contained therein.

I would really like to hear what Pastor Wilson things about this.

Is it a hint that Birth Control for its own sake displeases God?

What does this prohibition mean for us today?

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

Bill

Bill, at best I think that would be an oblique argument for fruitfulness or, as you put it, “a hint.” I think the principle would be that fruitfulness should be considered a blessing, and a blessing that is received coram Deo, before the Lord.

Right

I would agree that the vaccines are not the mark of the beast. But the mandates are a mark of a beast. The mandates are medically unnecessary. The vaccines are medically ineffective, not preventing infection, transmission, hospitalization, or death.

They are however, a good way to burn incense and genuflect to Caesar.

James

James, amen. The behavior of these secular governments in their draconian measures has been appalling.

Vocational Education?

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.

I’ve read a few of your books on classical education (a while back) and have watched some of your other content on education (Man Rampant, “Geronimo, Amen!”). I am inspired by the vision that education should shape a person, and the goal is a God-worshiping, virtuous individual who rules and innovates rather than a “cog in the wheel.” As I’ve pondered I’ve had some questions and am hoping you can practically flesh out a few of these for me.

How do you reconcile this vision with the need for actual vocationally trained individuals? For professions like health care, plumbing/HVAC, etc, there needs to be vocational training beyond a liberal arts education. I imagine your ideal may be a virtuous plumber who can think and speak well, who may eventually own his own company, patent and license new products, own and manage real estate on the side, rather than just the “cog in the wheel.” But from a strictly practical standpoint regarding education, how does this look for a high school student who is planning the next several years? I disagree that STEM is everything, but surely there is a need for STEM/technical professions?

What if this student is a young woman who wants to get married and have children sooner rather than later, but if God were to tarry bringing a husband (or never brings one), she would prefer working in a profession that requires vocational training like nursing, dental hygiene, etc. Does this look like 4 years of liberal arts education plus additional years of vocational training (a lot of years and a lot of money)? Would you steer young women away from vocational training for this reason? I remember being single and wrestling with how to prepare well for the future and I am now wondering how to counsel daughters when they reach that age.

Is a rigorous, quality, godly K-12 education enough? If someone received a good education through high school, do you think he or she could reasonably do something more technical after high school, or would you still strongly encourage a four year liberal arts education?

Mallory

Mallory, it depends on the circumstances. A solid K-12 education could be sufficient in some situations. And I agree that vocational training is needed at some point. But I should learn how to be a doctor after I have learned how to be a human being. And New St. Andrews is currently working on some creative measures that would enable a student to get (for example) a pre-med degree in five years (instead of eight), and which included a wise use of electives. But to take the basic issue—take a room full of people with college degrees, say a hundred of them, and ask all those who are currently working in the same field as their college major to stand up. What do you think would happen?

A Translation Issue

How important is it to maintain the distinction between singular and plural pro-nouns in Bible translation? I grew up with, and still use, the KJV, and, while it’s not perfect, the singular (thee/thou etc) vs the plural (you/your) pronoun distinction is maintained, in contrast with modern translations. I don’t know any modern translations that attempt to maintain that singular/plural pronoun distinction. I realize that it doesn’t make a big difference in the meaning of most passages, but if it is God’s Word and we are not supposed to take anything out (Rev 22:19), then doesn’t even something like this distinction, which exists in the original languages, matter enough that it should be maintained somehow when we translate God’s Word, regardless of how big or small the difference to meaning is? I’m sure that from my question it’s obvious that I think it matters, but if I am making a mountain out of a molehill where I shouldn’t be, then I’d like to know why I can let this go.

If it is important, than what sort of English language conventions would you suggest for a modern translation to maintain that distinction without having to use thee/thou/thine etc, along with the more archaic English that seems to necessarily come along with using thee/thou/thine, etc?

Thanks!

Alex

Alex, I would suggest some sort of typographic signal—italics or something like that.

Enns and Means

I’m currently reading Peter Enns wrote The Bible Tells Me So and How The Bible Really Works as means to interact with someone who actually thinks he can be trusted. What books would be best to recommend to him? And what in essence is wrong with Enns?

Siegfried

Siegfried, I am sorry I don’t know of a good book-length treatment. But you might start here.

An Exhortation from the Studio Audience

As a retired, nearly 70-yr old video producer who is a Calvinistic Christian, and suddenly now also an interim pastor (because our reformed pastor was suddenly taken by cancer last April and we can’t afford a new pastor) in need of instruction, and one who enjoys greatly your Reformed, postmillennial commentary immensely, a pro video tip: slow your reading down and, for goodness’ sake, BLINK every once in awhile as you read the prompter. This may be my sanctified evening bourbon talking, but you don’t have to rush through your well-thought-out, and always stimulating, mablogs. :-)

Keep up the fight: I’m with you.

Daniel

Daniel, I do extra blinking on the drive down to Canon.

A Question

This is a request for pastoral advice. My wife and I are elderly and recently moved to Northwest Georgia to be near our daughter and son-in-law. The purpose was two fold. First was to leave the corrupt state of Illinois. The second was to be near our family for the need of care as we grow older. The problem is that we have not been able to find a church home. Literally on every corner is a baptist church. I have nothing against Baptist but “ good ole boy” preaching is not what we are looking for so please give me some advice as to what we can do. The other issue is related in that because of no church home we have not celebrated communion for some time. Is it permissible for us to do that in our home. I am not an ordained minister so I don’t know if having communion would be allowed. Thanks

Tony

Tony, I wouldn’t celebrate communion at home, no. I think your choices boil down to two. Find the best church available, join it, and then supplement the teaching you get with online stuff. The second thing would be to start praying about a church starting up near you, and becoming part of the support for that happening.

In Evolution and Sexual Selfishness Doug states, “egalitarians and feminists want the women to win” and I agree this is what they want. Which goes to show their name, egalitarian, is a misnomer—a distraction to hide behind in order to mask their true motives and make their position appear more reasonable. They really don’t desire equality, they want equity.

Robert

Robert, I believe their ultimate goal is androgyny, and so they don’t want real women to win. They want their construct to win, which would include all sorts of things leveled out. So the term egalitarian might still be suitable.

Creation in Two Movements

I have a Biblical question for Doug Wilson: Genesis 1:2. Why was the earth without form and void causing the Holy Spirit to hover over the surface of the water, ‘remake’ it? Was this when Satan and his angels were cast down from heaven causing the destruction of the original perfect earth that God had created?

( between Genesis 1:1-2) ?

Connie

Connie, I believe that the Lord created in two stages. First He made the “stuff,” the matter, and it was a chaotic, shapeless mass. And then He shaped it.

Good Question

Thanks for the great discussion on maintaining pastoral independence. Can you provide some insight into how the parishioners should aid that process? It seems a given not to be in the “we elected you” crew, but I suspect there is more to it, especially when one finds oneself in a position of monetary and social influence outside the church. How should the “man with a gold ring and fine clothes” avoid being placed in the best seats and displacing those with fewer earthly goods?

Grace and Peace,

N

N, a man of independent means ought not to be a man of ostentatious display. In other words, he is not beholden to others, but he does not try to manipulate others either. His wealth is his independence, not the dependence of others.

But What About Aragorn?

I recently wrote about Gandalf and you answered, thank you for that. His case, that of an angel, may be more clear cut. But I suppose that Aragorn would have had a surprise trial when he got back from speaking with the men of the mountain. No dealings with the dead and all.

Tyler

Tyler, except that the Lord descended in Hades and preached to the spirits in prison. That would be “dealing with the dead,” right?

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Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Pastor Wilson, Oregon is not eliminating math and english requirements from the curriculum. They require the exact same math and english coursework that they have always required, and their current rules are no more lax than Idaho’s.
 
The only thing being removed (temporarily) is a proficiency test required before graduation. Idaho graduates have never had to take such a test to graduate, nor did Oregon graduates before 2012. Oregon is temporarily returning to the same old high school graduation system that most states have always followed. 

https://www.opb.org/article/2021/09/20/examining-oregon-decision-to-drop-high-school-essential-skill-requirements/

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Claiming that Oregon decided “teaching black kids to do math is a bridge too far” is false. Educators across the state were saying that the new system wasn’t working. Why should the state to put an additional obstacle in front of graduates if it doesn’t add anything? It was an obstacle that students in most states never face.
 
Oregon adopting a regular graduation requirement was a non-issue when it was passed by the Senate back in April. It only became an issue when right-wingers distorted and politicized it. And you fell for the bait without doing the research. As always.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jane
Jane
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

If making sure people can read and do basic math before certifying that they are minimally educated adults is an “obstacle,” then the solution is to fix the failure to teach basic skills before graduation, not to tell them and the rest of us that they’ve achieved a basic education when they haven’t.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Why are you still misreading the bill even after I already corrected it? Students are absolutely required to read and do basic math before they graduate, they have to pass the same math and english courses they have always had to pass. They just don’t have to take a specific, novel standardized test that wasn’t helping.

Even two of Oregon’s most conservative Republican House members voted for the bill. If you believe requiring a standardized test for graduation is so essential, then why hasn’t Idaho (or most of the rest of the nation) done it?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Idaho reaffirmed in 2017 that their state would have no exit exam requirements for graduation. It passed unanimously. So you’re making a giant deal about Oregon removing a requirement that Idaho has decided unanimously that it doesn’t want.

In fact, only 11 states in the entire country require an exit exam. Out of the 30 “red” states won by Trump in 2016, only 5 require an exit exam. Oregon is one of 19 states, mostly conservative, that used to have such a requirement but got rid of it.

https://www.idahoednews.org/news/senate-committee-nixes-isat-graduation-requirement/

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

The only thing this is about is DW not using the word “proficiency” in front of the word “requirements.” Neither did the far-left MSN.com: Oregon scraps math, English high school graduation requirements (msn.com) Of course, Jonathan’s being ridiculously pedantic (as always) and the real question is why a grown man has time to scour articles for a single missing word to make an asinine point. The issue is why they’re scrapping the requirement. It has nothing to do with Idaho, as Jonathan once again throws in extraneous information. It’s not like DW is an apologist for Idaho’s gov’t indoctrination centers… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by C Herrera
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Did you seriously just post an article from the Daily Mail and try to claim it was far-left? The Daily Mail is a notoriously right-wing British tabloid.

Once again you were completely dishonest.

And yes, the governor’s spokesperson said the move would help minorities. Democrats argue that every move they make helps minorities, do you expect them to say the move would hurt minorities?

Now answer why far-right reps like Greg Smith and Gary Leif voted for the bill. Or why over 80% of red states don’t have exit exam requirements.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

MSN.com published it and it was a non-partisan article, quoting people from both sides of the issue. “Once again,” you’re missing the larger point. Once again, you’re the one being dishonest, just like the father of lies you and your far-left, God-hating, life-hating friends serve (you know, the ones who love abortion, LGBTQ+, population control, etc.?). DW’s point was about the rationale behind the move. The governor’s spokeswhatever said nothing about Idaho not having the same requirement. You brought that up and it’s irrelevant. But keep the comments coming like a bad case of diarrhea. You already have twice as… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Oh, so now the article is “non-partisan”, when minutes ago you were claiming it was far-left?

MSN is a news aggregator, they publish stuff from everyone. The article is from the Daily Mail, which everyone knows has right-wing editorial staff. Your argument solely relied on the headline, which is placed by the Daily Mail editors. That phrase never even appears in the body of the article.

You were caught in dishonesty by claiming a right-wing headline came from a “far-left” source, and instead of admitting that you had tried to mislead people, you doubled down on personal attacks.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You are again focusing on irrelevant information like the useless pedant that you are. The way it is called is NOT a problem, and we talk about things in non-specific ways all the time.

Did you know, the second amendment doesn’t protect the right to own guns, but to bear arms? Whoa!

Pedantry of this sort is idiotic. Focus on the point.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

How is it “pedantic” to note that Oregon is NOT eliminating math and english requirements, but merely reverting to the exact same system as Idaho and most of the rest of the country?

How is it “pedantic” to note that the claim that Oregon had stopped trying to teach minorities math and english was a total falsehood?

You could have read Pastor Wilson’s entire piece and not once understood that Oregon’s requirements aren’t the slightest bit easier than Idaho’s.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Are they requirements? Yes. Do they have to do with math and english? Yes. Was Wilson’s point hyperbolic? Yes. Did he still make his point? Yes.

As someone already familiar with the recent change, his post was not confusing at all. If I wasn’t familiar, a quick google would have given me the details.

Don’t be this way. Stop trolling.

Will
Will
5 months ago

What Jonathan (the smart one) pointed out is just how, once again, Wilson either misread or, purposely misled what the article was about. That is the point you numbskull.

You Wilsonites are trip.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

It’s odd that you come onto Wilson’s lawn here just to trample on the grass and spit on the chairs. At least Jonathan actually tries to sound reasonable, you are the basest of Trolls.

We also know that you are an idiotic leftist. I’m not sure about Jonathan, but I am sure about you.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan (the conservative one)
Will
Will
5 months ago

You don’t have a clue about my politics or my faith. But I sure have clear understanding of yours.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

And the reason Oregon scrapped the measure was because it was disliked across the state. It forced teachers to do a lot of extra work and deserving students were still not graduating. The same reason that the vast majority of states that had such requirements have already scrapped them.

Please, explain why Greg Smith and Gary Leif, very conservative Republicans, also voted to scrap it.

The line about minority students benefitting was the sort of throwaway line that left-leaners throw in to everything they do. Minority students will indeed benefit, but in Oregon even more White students will benefit.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It was disliked across the state, was it? Hmmm, I wonder what the worldview is of most people in the State of Oregon…..

Also who ever heard of Republican politicians being stupid…

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Oregon? When someone says “across the state”, they’re speaking of a state for whom the large majority of counties lean conservative, including my own. I had hoped that the geographic adjective made that clear, but oh well.

Perhaps these very conservative Republican politicians are “stupid”. Great excuse. Now explain why they voted yes on the bill. And explain why Idaho was unanimous in rejecting testing standards for their own students. Explain why none of the 15 whitest states in the country force their students to pass an exit exam. It isn’t to protect minorities, so….?

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I actually live in Oregon. I don’t pretend to understand Republican politicians. I think they should be advocating for eliminating the schools, so I don’t delve much into their policies.

I also don’t pretend to understand Idaho’s politicians. The entire system needs to go.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Buddy, no one here is being an apologist for the Republican party. Most of us lean more libertarian anyway in terms of government. Just because Republican politicians did something doesn’t mean we automatically agree with or support them.

From a Christian standpoint, Public schools shouldn’t exist at all. We are pointing out their stupidity.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I’m guessing this is where you point out to me how all the private and Christian schools have already been forcing their students to take this standardized test to graduate?

Oh wait….

I guess it’s one standard for the public school kids and a different, easier standard for the private/Christian schools?

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Can I make something clear?

I’m not saying I support the requirement. I’m saying dropping the standards of a failing system even further is dumb. I’m not trying to legislate in opposition. At this point the public schools need to burn (metaphorically, not advocating violence)

Seeing as there shouldn’t be a public school IMO at all, no I don’t advocate double standards.

Will
Will
5 months ago

Again, in plain English, they are not dropping the standards.

Since only those who can afford private schools would be educated, you do indeed advocate for double standards.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

That’s not a double standard… per definition. And it’s also not true, but I’m not going to argue that point right now.

Will
Will
5 months ago

I’d love to see you argue the point.

Double standard: A rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

You have the money to send your kids to private school, your neighbor doesn’t, so his kids go uneducated because there is no other option for them. Unless you, in Christian charity, pick up the bill for your neighbor’s kids.

Am I missing something?

Will
Will
5 months ago

Still crickets from your side of the fence. Come on, I’ll be gentle.

JohnM
JohnM
5 months ago

Do you think public schools should not exist because of how bad they’ve become (in more ways than one), or are you opposed to the idea in any case, on principal? I think the second would be a libertarian stance; I’m not a libertarian, but you have said you are, so, just asking. For my part, I’m not against public schools in principal, but I’ve come to disfavor public education because of what public education has come to be.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

JohnM, I’m against them for both of those reasons, although of course I believe an explicitly Christian public education system is better than what we have now. But I do believe it falls outside the realm of the government, which also leads to lots of extra regulation, and increases taxes, which ought to be as low as possible.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago

JonathanTCO and JohnM, It is funny to me to see protestants say that public education is somehow against the faith or scripture. Protestants literally invented compulsory public education and have strongly supported it over the years. They may be wrong, but we should give due weight to our fathers in the faith. The first ever call, that I know of, for compulsory public education was by Martin Luther. He reasoned that if protestant were to not fall into clericalism every Christian must be taught to read the Bible. Notably his request was to the “Councillors of the Towns.” It is… Read more »

Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, of course Protestants support public education. The problem is that what the reformers wanted, the Puritans and others envisioned is not what we have today. The Bible calls us to knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Today’s schools do none of that.

Is it unchristian to call out the public schools for the mess that they are?

Is it unchristian to demand that the schools be defunded until they return to education instead of indoctrination?

Why should Christians not call out loudly against this travesty?

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

I didn’t call anyone unchristian. And no, there is nothing wrong with criticizing public schools, either in their current instantiation or in any previous (or hypothetical) one. But if you do so you should be careful how you ground your critique.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, it’s funny to me to see you seemingly argue that the monstrosity that passes for public “education” today — with its top-heavy administration, constant experimentation on those unable to give consent, lazy teachers, and greedy teacher’s unions — is somehow Christian because of the faith of those who brought us public education in the first place. The founders of this country were Christian. Using your line of argumentation, those same Christian founders ratified the Constitution, the Tenth Amendment of which explicitly states, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago

FP, “However, at the end of the day, public education per se, whether at the federal or local level, is neither Christian nor unChristian, because there are no scriptures commanding it nor forbidding it.” This is basically my position. My concern is with taking something that is essentially a matter of prudence and saying is unchristian or unbiblical. Though I think we should be applying the principles of scripture as we work out these questions. I have been, and continue to be, very critical of our public education system. I have kept my own kids out of it, and I… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo,

Glad we agree on something. My concern is that you’re admonishing (“you should really reflect and study before calling it unChristian” and “you should be careful how you ground your critique”) rather than probing (e.g., “Why do you believe public schools shouldn’t exist from a Christian standpoint?”). In this case, probing would make for a far more fruitful conversation, given the subject matter. EDIT: Just saw that JohnM did this very thing. Credit where it’s due.

After all, how do you know people haven’t thought this issue through if you don’t ask?

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

“It is funny to me to see protestants say that public education is somehow against the faith or scripture.” Demo above

Demo, that’s what I was referring to.

Merry Christmas.

JohnM
JohnM
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Though for the record, no one here so far has said public education is against the faith or scripture. Or if I have missed something, at least I have not said that.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

JohnM,

Jonathan TCO said “From a Christian standpoint, Public schools shouldn’t exist at all. We are pointing out their stupidity.”

And,

“But I do believe it falls outside the realm of the government,”

And I have in view discussions (to put it charitably) over the past few weeks about whether magistrates supporting the poor is “biblical.”

I wasn’t directing my comment at you, I was directing at the conversation you were having. I wasn’t very clear!

JohnM
JohnM
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

That’s fine. Like I said, if I missed something. I didn’t have time just then to thoroughly review all the comments in the thread and had just responded to the last one before mine.

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

There is a reason why the Daily Mail is nicknamed the Daily Heil!

It is also called the Daily Wail, and reading some of the comments from its readers will quickly explain why.

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Feel free to stick with the BBC and their (and your) damnable woke religion, Kenny B.
BBC Report Admits Liberal Bias on Abortion (catholicexchange.com)

Last edited 5 months ago by C Herrera
Jeff
Jeff
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’re kidding about DM aren’t you?

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Jane, If that’s what was happening you would be correct. Unfortunately, you are getting your information from Wilson’s flawed reading of the article or whatever site he pulled it from. The real question for me is, how did Wilson not understand what was actually happening? Laziness? Poor reading comprehension? Deliberate intention? This is far from the first time he’s been wrong about what he claims in his posts. Several within the last couple of weeks. As of yet, he has failed to issue any retractions. Not what you would expect from a pastor. Especially if he hopes to rehabilitate his… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, as of yet you have failed to actually believe in any Christian things. not what you would expect from someone who is an internet troll… oh wait it’s exactly what you would expect.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan (the conservative one)
Will
Will
5 months ago

What are “Christian things”?

Is Wilson’s recent misinformation campaign, as one example, a “Christian thing”?

Is Wilson’s referring to women as cunts, as another example, a “Christian thing”?

Christian love isn’t exactly oozing out of your comments or Wilson’s history, and since Christian love is a real thing and since you and Wilson claim to be Christians, shouldn’t it be?

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Will
Will
5 months ago

JTCO, as of yet you have failed to answer my question about “Christian things”.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

In fairness, a lot of media sites reported this inaccurately by not saying that the state’s action consisted only of removing the high school exit exam–readers of these sites could well have concluded that Oregon was no longer requiring students to pass high school math and English classes in order to graduate. Nor did these sites point out that the majority of states don’t require students to take and pass a high school exit exam on top of taking and passing two years of algebra and one of geometry. Some sites reported that Oregon dropped all its math and English… Read more »

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

How does that in any way excuse Wilson? If this was a random occurrence with him, that would be understandable. But it’s not. He’s done the same thing two or three times in the past two weeks. Not peep from him. He has a hit and miss record with truthfulness. The least he could do is make a retraction. I’m not holding my breath. Are you?

Your attraction to him has baffled me for years. Please don’t take that as a criticism, just an observation.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

I think “attraction” is not the word I would use if attraction implies general agreement with his views or a belief that he can always be relied on to handle data more or less correctly and to present his arguments according to the highest standards of academic integrity. For example, I think Doug’s position on COVID has been driven more by ideology than an objective assessment of the data. But there are numerous other subjects on which Doug has commented with insight, humor, and rational argument–which I can appreciate even if I disagree with his conclusions. Doug is not my… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jill Smith
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Regardless of the particular requirements of public schools in Oregon – do you agree that there is a push among progressives to downplay or eliminate standardized testing, and that there is a racial justice element behind the position? I am a big believer in standardized testing – it gives the best chance for bright kids from underperformering school and underclass families to get noticed and supported through college and a stable and contributive life. I understand the arguments against it, but I disagree and I think downplaying it will naturally preference measurements that are poorer at predicting student performance… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

There has been a strong anti-standardized testing element among progressives going back decades. “it is a very great and more serious evil to sacrifice systematic instruction and a comprehensive view of the subject for the scrappy and unrelated knowledge gained by students who are persistently drilled in the mere answering of questions issued by the Education Department or other governing bodies.” – New York Department of Education, 1906 Dewey and Piaget are arguably the founders of modern education and both pushed ways of thinking about education that suggested standardized testing has major limitations. Alfie Kohn has been one of the… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, A few things: 1. I’m primarily talking about college entry/sorting exams not graduation exams. States have been pulling back from graduation exams largely because they are embarrassing. Some of the embarrassment is because the people setting standards make them objectively impossible (every student at grade level… seriously?). And other times it is just that the performance is very poor and it is painful to publish it. I believe the majority of states had graduation exams in 2000 and now less than 20 do. Buy I don’t have to figures in front of me. 2. GPA has serious measurement issues.… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

30 states have had exit exams; now only 11 do. But most were brief windows. Oregon had theirs from 2012-2019. Others had that brief 90s/00s period when testing was hot. If you go back to 70s/80s you’ll likely find few states with an exam.

Do you find it interesting that 0 of 15 highest-% White states require an exit exam, while 9 of 15 highest-% Black/Latino states require it? That’s a racial bias opposite from the one Wilson claimed. It’s the states with white underclasses who have been most unwilling to force their students into an exit exam.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I don’t think it’s particularly surprising, and I would guess it is due to cultural/political considerations that are somewhat, if not completely, orthogonal to race. Also, states may well have a black underclass and be in the top 15 by white percent. My state us in the top 15, and the urban areas in my state have large black underclass populations. Minnesota and Wisconsin are very white, they are quite politically liberal (traditionally) and they have some of the highest black/white disparities of any state (a 2016 Huffpo article says they are the two worst states for black Americans based… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

You’re pointing out exceptions, which of course will exist. But the main trend is very strong. I’m curious as to why you assume it’s some cultural factor orthogonal to race. I’ve heard the same mechanism theorized across many other fields, from health care access to social uplift programs. Is it really a huge stretch to suggest that White majorities in states like Idaho and West Virginia are slightly more sympathetic to their poorer White residents than White majorities in Mississippi and Louisiana are to their poor Black/Brown residents? At the least, would it not make sense that there is less… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,

It’s possible, but I doubt it us a vug factor. For one thing, the exceptions I gave were 20% of 15 and I think others (like Indiana) would fit the same mold. For another thing, in my experience, the white underclass gets plenty of disgust, and in recent years when you rarely hear disparagement on black or Hispanic minorities in politics society the white underclass remained fair game.

I admit that it could be a factor, but I wouldn’t want to put much weight on it without some pretty clear evidence.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I think there is a tendency among urban white elites to apply different standards. A black inner city kid gets addicted to crack because he lives in a miserable environment that offers him no hope for the future; a white Appalachian kid gets addicted to Oxy or Fentanyl because of personal moral turpitude. I hear variations on that from some of my friends. There’s a tendency not to believe in white poverty or that whites can also be the “deserving poor” or that underfunded schools can be found outside the inner cities.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, that might be an example of what certain elites say to each other when they’re trying to sound enlightened, but what do they actually do in reality? * No matter what they “say”, the truth is that the crack cocaine black people were using was regulated 100x more strictly than the powder cocaine white people were using. * No matter what they “say”, the truth is that black kids are several times more likely to be arrested for marijuana use than white kids, even though studies show that black and white kids use marijuana at the same rate. *… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Of course. But the people I know who talk like that also oppose the disparate treatment of crack and powdered cocaine users, don’t think that anyone should be arrested for marijuana possession, and do support efforts to make the things you mention more equitable. They’re not to be confused with those liberal elites who exhibit the appropriate sympathies while supporting A-G Kamala Harris’s lock-em-all-up tough love for black marijuana users. But that still misses my main point. Even if white elites’ concern and sympathy for urban blacks is nowhere near as sincere or deep as they think it is, it’s… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I think it’s simply the feeling that one can “get away” with talking about their own group in a manner they wouldn’t talk about others. “I can say it cause I’m one of them”, even when they’re clearly not one of them. And of course also virtue signaling regarding what they perceive is acceptable in their peer group. Like I said though, it’s just talk. They aren’t going to move into a Black neighborhood and put their kids in a neighborhood school with poor black kids any more than they are going to move to a rural White neighborhood. They… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, I don’t think it is just among urban elites. In my circles people definitely talk about underclass whites in ways they would never talk about racial minorities. Does this translate into policy? I don’t know. The “white trash” goes over example after example of people throughout US history saying some variation of “negros can be ennobled by education and discipline but the poor whites of the south are sinking deeper and more hopelessly into barbarism with each succeeding generation.” Also, take a look at how Kevin Williamson was treated. He lost his job at the Atlantic partly for referring… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I agree there is a double-standard in discourse in some circles. They should do better. The sentiments they express could be used much the same by the “other side” to disparage their own perceived cultural enemies.

You see it on the other side too. To conflate a little, the elite white conservative who goes to Neshoba County dropping dog whistles and railing against welfare queens knows that he’s pandering to an anti-black audience, but it’s unlikely he cares much about poor white folk either.

Many sworn enemies are peas-in-the-pod who were just born into different tribes.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

FWIW, grade inflation is highest in private schools and the suburbs, whereas in urban schools grade inflation is practically nonexistent. I’ll bet there are a LOT more 4.0s being given out in crappy all-white rural schools than there are in crappy urban brown/black schools. https://hechingerreport.org/newest-advantage-rich-america-higher-grades/ I think my education was fairly similar to yours – crappy rural school, personally had high test scores. But did or your teachers really need an SAT score to tell that your potential was different than some of the other kids with good grades? I knew I was going to go into science since I… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I agree that grade inflation is worst when the parents demand it. That is more common at private and affluent schools. The opponents of the new UC policy on standardized tests have pointed this out very effectively. I REALLY don’t want teachers at crappy rural schools deciding who is or isn’t eligible for scholarship money, honors programs, admissions, etc. That is the dystopia scenario. ASVAB is nearly as highly correlated with IQ as the SAT is. It would work fine for admissions! Essay quality is much more highly correlated to SES than SAT scores are… removing the written portion… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I am trying to focus on the educational system, and you’re pushing the conversation to the admissions system. I really feel that the educational system is 100x more important to society than the admissions system. In terms of ASVAB, I was speaking on using the subject-level tests as career discernment, not in terms of consolidating all those subjects into one general score for admissions purposes. I’m a fan of subject-level testing when it does a good job of showing the specific things that students do and don’t know, so they can work towards their strengths as well as improve their… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, “I am trying to focus on the educational system, and you’re pushing the conversation to the admissions system.” Fair enough. I wasn’t necessarily intending to start a side discussion. I just wanted to point out that there has been pushback against testing and there is a racial justice element. The same thing can also be seen in testing for various employment. I agree that education is important, but I’m not convinced that primary and secondary education is more important than the university. Having a way to channel the brightest kids into the elite (and forming them for it) is… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

More hogwash and lies. I read recently about a black kid who had millions of dollars of scholarships and could pretty much pick any college he wanted. His GPA was over 5.0 at his urban school of academic excellence. After searching around a bit, I found out his college entrance exam scores were lower than any of my kids. And despite good grades, lots of community service, etc., they didn’t get offered a fraction of what he did. Their mythical “white privilege” is as worthless as mine has been…actually it’s been a great hindrance. Citing a trashy leftist propaganda article… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Other than virtue-signaling that you’re on Armin’s side, I’m at a total loss as to what you thought that comment had to do with your post or what you thought you were proving with it.

I went to a school where the average SAT was about 1500, average GPA was 3.9/4. I knew two white girls, twins, who got in despite both scoring around 1200. And one of my white suitemates freshman year had a 1330 SAT and 3.3 GPA. They all had alumni connections. So there’s some anecdotes for you.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Many high schools have a maximum GPA of 4.0. Schools with a higher maximum use a “weighted” formula that awards extra points based on the difficulty of the course. Students with a 5.0 GPA have taken AP, IB, or concurrent college classes. You can assume, if you like, that every urban high school is garbage, but you only accumulate points toward your GPA by doing well on an externally administered exam. The people who grade those exams are not provided information about the ethnicity of the students whose test papers cross their desks. Your belief that a black kid couldn’t… Read more »

Jane
Jane
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, it’s not quite true that you can only accumulate points toward your GPA on an externally administered exam. I’m not sure about IB, but for AP classes, class grades have nothing to do with the external test. Class grades are assigned by the classroom teacher regardless of performance on the AP exam, and at least where my kids went to high school, performance on the AP was not in any way factored into classroom grades. In fact students frequently opted not to take the AP exam if they didn’t expect a pass, or didn’t think the college credit benefit… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Having just looked it up, I see you are right. A good score on the external AP exam determines only whether you can get a class credit for a corresponding entry-level course when you go to college. I wish I had looked it up before my daughter’s college counselors and teachers told parents and students that the school gives extra weight to AP courses only when students take and pass the external AP exams! In fact, I remember struggling students being advised to drop AP Euro and take a regular history class instead because there was no GPA advantage to… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

My state still has an exit exam, and I spent a lot of volunteer hours working with kids who teachers identified as unlikely to pass. I found it quite remarkable that the CAHSEE is objectively a lot more difficult than the mandatory California test of math and reading skills for teachers! The problem with the CAHSEE is that it assumes students who passed statistics in tenth grade are still going to remember two years later how to calculate a standard deviation from an array of test scores. CAHSEE also assumes they will remember that a variable that affects the data… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Your state had an exit exam. The CAHSEE was only required from 2006 to 2015. It was originally suspended in 2015 and then permanently abolished in 2017.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’re right; I had missed that news. In fact, California is granting diplomas retroactively to students denied them solely as a result of not passing the test. One of the stated reasons is that the test didn’t align with course content with the result that students were tested on material they had never been taught. The statistics test questions I mentioned are a case in point. I spent enough time glancing through my daughter’s math text and homework to know that Algebra I and II didn’t cover looking at an array and identifying as an outlier any number that was… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I got a little bogged down in “predictive power” there and omitted one important note. The primary purpose of K-12 education should never be to “predict” who will succeed at the next level. The primary purpose should always be to educate every student and help them succeed more. Standardized testing seriously detracts from the educational experience – the more time you spend taking tests and prepping for tests, the less time you spend actually learning. I haven’t seen any evidence whatsoever that wasting all that time on tests and test prep teaches students anything other than how to pass that… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,

I don’t disagree with this. I’m something of a skeptic of standardized testing for assessment. But I am a strong proponent of it for college admission, and especially for selective programs/scholarships. My school certainly didn’t teach to the SAT/ACT *at all.* Though they did teach to the regular assessments. In some ways that was good because it meant my poorer teachers actually had to do something, but for the better teachers it may have been restricting.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Yes, but there’s nothing new about this–before the concern with racial justice issues, some people considered the SATs discriminatory against girls because scores on the two non-math tests can’t make up more than 50% of the total score. The score on one math test accounts for the other 50% (it used to count only for one-third). Boys’ median score on the math test is higher than girls’ and, even though the gap is narrowing, the number of boys who score above 700 in math is much, much higher than the number of girls. As with IQ tests, girls’ SAT scores… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill,

In my experience (and this may not be born out in the data) girls score worse on the science section of the ACT than on the math section. So I’m not sure taking the ACT would help much.

I got a 36 on the science and the reading sections, and did more poorly on the sections that require something other than interpretation!

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

It would have helped my own dear one because science–even the sciences that require a fair bit of math–was one of her strengths. I don’t find it surprising that girls in general score lower than boys on the math portion of the SAT. I do find it surprising when girls who excel in their high school math classes fall apart on the SAT. Math is less subject to grade inflation than courses like English and history so I don’t think we can reasonably suspect that math teachers are awarding girls bonus points to give them undeserved As. And the math… Read more »

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hello,

You are a certified moron. The point is clear, he was not getting into details, and the motivation for the change is clear. The point is, the Left thinks expecting anything of “people of color” *cringes* is Racist™

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You’re tripping over Matthew 5:22 again.

You’re also misrepresenting what Oregon has done. Oregon DOES expect something from its Black/Brown students, to pass the exact same classes that White kids across the state and the rest of the country have to pass. They’re just now removing an extra, unnecessary hoop to jump through.

If it’s really “reverse racism” that leads to the removal of exit exams, then can you explain why 0 of 15 most-White states require an exit exam, while 9 of 15 most-Black/Brown states require it? That’s the opposite of your narrative.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m afraid I don’t exactly consider you a brother, your own conduct disqualified you long before I started reading this blog. Also, very convenient you always grab that to defend yourself while passing out the same sort of treatment to others constantly.

WHY do you keep assuming I support the way others do it? I am against ALL public schools! I haven’t looked into the stats, and I’m not going to right now.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

That says a lot more about you than it does me or the Gospel. I can quite guarantee what the God of Jesus Christ considers us to each other. If you think you can ignore any Gospel instruction merely by devaluing the person you’re in relationship with, you are not reading the Gospels for their worth.

And I work as hard as possible to speak specifically to people’s conduct. Yes, sometimes I use strong words to tear down false arguments, but if I ever indulge in derisive name-calling just to insult someone then I have failed as a Christian.

Dan Soltys
Dan Soltys
5 months ago

That is some crazy logic! You don’t like jonathan so you call him a moron. And since you assume he isn’t a believer, you think you are somehow in the clear regarding your insult. Consider me nonplussed.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Soltys

That’s par for the course. Welcome to the jungle!

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Soltys

Jonathan (the moronic one) has called people plenty of names including idiots and (of course) “racist.” He doesn’t act in good faith and constantly sides with those who hate God and his people,but acts as if he’s God special gift to the universe regardless. Jumping into a conversation without knowing the backstory (that spans years and likely tens of thousands of comments) isn’t very wise. This whole place would be better if Jonathan got a 5-to-9 job (not just a 9-to-5) and quit being such a busybody with way too much time on his hands.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

It’s strange that when I make critiques I make them of specific comments and arguments, while when you make claims against me they are vague and unsourced.

If you have a problem when how I address someone, then say it then. I rarely use the term “racist” except when responding to specific behavior where it clearly applies, and I rarely use the word “idiot” directly to another individual at all. If at any time I have done either unfairly, you should call it out then, not just with this vague unsourced accusations.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Wether you are a Christian or not, you owe Jonathan an apology for the horrible things you have said and the accusation you have made about him. You have not shown Christian charity to him, just the opposite.

Dan Soltys
Dan Soltys
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I don’t think I understand this “jungle” (as Will calls it). Cherrera apparently doesn’t like jonathan either and calls him a moron too while yelling at me for judging the comments section without all of the backstory. So if I knew the whole backstory, would I be required to agree that these personal attacks are somehow OK?

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Soltys

This place is like all jungles – dark, dangerous, and full of flora and fauna that can kill you. It is ruled by a self-proclaimed pastor who evidently traffics in obfuscation and depends upon his subjects (I’m not one) to do the same. Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch’intrate.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Dan Soltys

Dan, heads up on Cherrera. Take him with a grain of salt. He claims to be a Christian, but his commenting proves otherwise.

Will
Will
5 months ago

I don’t think you exhibit Christian values. You certainly don’t reflect the teachings of Jesus. You should look in the mirror before you say what you said.

Armin
Armin
5 months ago

I have a question for Doug and anyone else who’s interested regarding the “racist” low expectations the left have for blacks. Suppose that we geared K-12 curriculum toward the assumption that someone of average intellect would be capable and expected to graduate. If the average IQ is 100, this would mean that half of white students would graduate (Asians would be higher), but only about one tenth of blacks would graduate. Is holding blacks to a standard that the vast majority of them are incapable of meeting really the answer to this problem? Is it really any less “racist” than… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Among other issues your math is way off. For only 10% of Black students to score above the White average would imply a Black-White IQ gap of over 20 points. In reality, the Black-White IQ testing gap had reduced to just 9.5 points by 2002 and was shrinking rapidly. The 2002 average Black IQ was comparable to the 1970 average White IQ, if the same trends have held then 2020 Black IQ scores are likely comparable now to 1990s White averages. http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/dickens2006a.pdf So in 2002 the true number of Black students who scored above the White average would have been… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

If you’re going to be a rude prick then I won’t address your concerns.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Right Armin, your constant degradation of Black folk for all the years you’ve been here isn’t the nasty part, it’s my snarky reply that really stepped over the line.

Your math claims were manufactured and false. I proved that with a direct citation and correct statistics. You can just admit you were wrong rather than trying to weasel out by playing the victim.

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The data your link was based on was from almost 20 years ago. If the trajectory was for the gap to be closing, why not provide more recent data that shows it closed even more? The reason, of course, is because you can’t, because that theory has been debunked and the gap persists. But let’s just take the closing gap at face value. If blacks are actually at 90.5 (splitting the difference of the 4-7 point gain on whites), this would mean that about 24% of blacks would be at that 100-IQ level. Obviously an improvement but still pitiful, and… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I provided a 2006 study based on 2002 data because it’s the most recent study on the subject I know of. That study already proved that your claim was wrong. Your scenario would rely on a completely fabricated 21-point IQ gap, whereas the study I linked showed that even by 2002 the gap was already down to 9.5 points and shrinking. You’re going to claim “the theory has been debunked” simply because that was the most recent study I know of, when you can’t provide any more recent study to support you claim at all? And a 9.5 point IQ… Read more »

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No, it was debunked because it has been shown that tests that most directly measure intelligence (eg. the “reverse digits” test) which are not based on cultural knowledge, are where the gap is highest. The reduced overall gap may suggest some kind of improved cultural assimilation of blacks (assuming those figures are even accurate), but does not reflect improved raw intelligence, or “g”. https://www.amren.com/news/2017/10/race-iq-evidence-arthur-jensen-philippe-rushton/ Regarding your old data, the link below is a lot more recent than yours and shows basically the 15-point gap I mentioned (Section 3), I’m basing my calculations on a 13.5 standard deviation for blacks, which… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

1. Black Americans in 2000 averaged at 104 IQ when normed on the White population of 1950. In other words, the Armin of 1950, ranting about how Black people would never be able to accomplish what White people could accomplish in intelligence, might have lived long enough to see Black people average higher intelligence than the 1950 White people he thought were so superior. You keep doing everything you can to avoid that uncomfortable reality. 2. If you had thought it through you would have realized that the negative Flynn effect actually hurts your case, since your own journal shows… Read more »

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The point is that the gap has always been there. Blacks of 2000 may have scored 104 in 1950, but whites would have scored 119. But even your beloved Flynn himself stated he believed this increase has been due more to a shift to more abstract thinking patterns of the population, not an actual increase in raw intelligence. https://www.amren.com/news/2012/10/why-iqs-rise/ Regarding the reverse Flynn Effect, it doesn’t matter that those countries are majority white. There is nothing indicating this reversal has affected only whites. If this were the case you’d be able to provide me more recent evidence that the gap… Read more »

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin,

Since you are concerned about setting our black brothers and sisters up for failure, and purely for comparison, what’s your IQ?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

No, the point is not “the gap has always been there”. The point is that the gap has closed over time, and what you claim to be fundamental ceilings on ability have clearly not been.

And yes, I think that shifts in abstract thinking patterns have as much to do with the Flynn effect change as anything. And they also have a lot to do with the existing gaps. See how that works?

The rest of your statement is just a reiteration of your position that completely ignores how much I tore it apart in the previous comment.

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You gave me one study with 20-year-old data showing the gap has closed over time, and I showed you data from 17 years later indicating it did not close long term. If a change in abstract thinking led to both the Flynn Effect and the gap closing, if the Flynn Effect is reversing (i.e. the effect of the shift into abstract thinking is reversing), why would you expect the gap closing to not reverse as well? See how that works? See, if you can’t answer the questions I’ve posed here regarding the highly dubious hypothesis of a permanent IQ gap… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Your “data” was a complete joke, a self-published study by a group of White Supremacists in a fake journal. Do better.

Your 2nd paragraph suggests you misunderstand the situation, your argument there doesn’t even make sense.

Your 3rd paragraph entirely relies on your rejecting all of the most recent valid studies while propping up a single fake study. You should have used fewer words.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You apparently don’t have the ability to accept information and arguments that contradict your fantasy view of the world, resorting to rudeness and fallacies like “muh white supremacist publication.” These things just reveal your own intellectual insecurity. Luckily conformist non-entities like you don’t change the world.

This will be the last time I engage with you, “Jonathan,” as it simply feels like punching down, as anyone on this website who has dealt with me in the past will see.

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I have no intellectual insecurity Armin. I demonstrate that by not having to base my entire online persona on degrading the intelligence of another entire race of people, as you have.

And yes, someone self-publishing their own paper in their own White Supremacist journal alongside other White Supremacists (several of whom have zero academic credentials) is not a serious study. You’ve provided 4 links to support yourself, 3 were White Supremacist journals and the 4th contradicted your own argument.

This is one of the guys who Armin is propping up as an authority:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emil_O._W._Kirkegaard

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

If you cite Amren’s data to support your argument, you must reasonably expect your readers to have seen Amren described as a white nationalist/white separatist website. If that is a fair description, you must further expect your reader to question whether Amren might cherrypick its data and distort its conclusions to support and promote its agenda. But perhaps a fair-minded reader should reject what she may have heard about Amren and decide for herself whether the white nationalist/white separatist characterization is correct. So, in the interest of fair-mindedness, I spent 15 minutes on Amren and collected titles of some commentaries… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, When Armin first showed up (and Ben before him) I took him for a teenager who had run across some forbidden fruit and was drunk on its juice. But here we are years later and I’m worried that a youthful infatuation will harden into resentment and disenchantment like it seems to have for the Jared Taylor’s of the world. I don’t know what causes some to be like Steve Sailer or Rhazib Khan or Charles Murray and others to be like Taylor or Spencer or Kirkegard – but if you are going to dabble in this stuff you should… Read more »

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

If there really is an inherent average difference in intelligence between blacks and whites, there are moral questions to consider. That was the point of my original question, which got lost in all the nonsense. It doesn’t matter if the gap is due to culture or genetics, or some combination. I don’t understand how wanting to honestly face that issue in a way that’s more nuanced than just pretending race doesn’t matter makes me resentful or whatever. No, I don’t particularly like blacks as a group, as I’ve made clear on here in the past, but I still think we… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

West Virginia has the lowest average SAT scores in the entire nation. Idaho is 4th-lowest. And both are almost entirely white. What “moral questions” do we need to consider, other than simply working to improve schools and conditions in West Virginia and Idaho?

We already know the entire population is distributed across the spectrum with different levels of intelligence. We already know there are low-intelligence people of all races. What difference does it make what color they are?

Imagine what happens when it cuts both ways….

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/study-links-low-intelligence-with-right-wing-beliefs/article543361/

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,

BTW, despite the fact that the SAT score data is interesting, it is badly confounded. Some states take mostly SAT and some mostly ACT and some states require one or the other. Delaware is near the bottom in SAT scores because they require everyone senior to take it. Missouri and Minnesota are near the top because only the brightest kids who want to go to school on the coasts take it. The opposite is true of the ACT. That said, Idaho with a very high test rate does perform as bad or worse than it’s more diverse peers.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin, Of course differences in IQ prompt moral questions, everything in life prompts moral questions. But they are often easier to handle if we take seriously our moral instruction: 1. Are these people my neighbors (yes!), 2. Then treat them as I would be treated. I believe in group IQ differences, because the evidence is sound and I try to be honest about such things. But believing evidence means that I also believe that the median black person has a higher iq than the median white person in 1950. I don’t particularly think that 1950s white people are unable to… Read more »

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

So if there were whites in an Asian country who were doing poorly, and the Asians said, “These people on average don’t seem to have the right stuff to make it here, and there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about” you would consider that evil racism and hatred? The answer is obvious. Even if they were wrong in their assumption that whites’ underperformance was unfixable, that wouldn’t make them evil. It would just make them mistaken about the facts. And that’s the core problem here: we can’t have an objective conversation about the facts because of white… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin, That would depend on a lot of factors. But let’s say Singapore got sick of cleaning their own houses, so they took some ships and guns to Georgia and kidnapped a bunch of white people and took them back to Singapore. A few generations later they felt bad about it and them let them all go, but generally kept them on as second class citizens restricting their pay, what jobs they could hold, etc. Then they decided to drop those laws too. A few years later they dropped those laws as well and said you white people can now… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

To add, people also can be led to realize – with some careful explanation – that distributions are not all the same. It surprises some people that the median black man is shorter that then median white man in America. But the standard deviation for height is quite a bit larger among black men so the tallest men in America is heavily biased toward black men. The same thing can be true of intellectual traits as well. (Distributions also frequently have fat tails…) Also, just like physical traits, intellectual traits can be effected by environment. People who are malnourished or… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Timothy was also in that vein, in fact I don’t even remember the race stuff from him early on but it slowly took him over during his posting there. And then there were all the “old ones” too like 40 Acres, UnReconstructedRebel, mkt, ashv, and I’m sure others I’m forgetting.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I forgot about Timothy. He definitely shifted that way over time, but always seemed more optimistic and naive rather than having a “convert the normies/just asking questions” attitude like Armin/Ben. 40Acres was in his own boat, definitely thoroughly formed! He was also far smarter than the rest of the crop. Barnabas likewise was much smarter better formed, though he was focused far less on race. That was all long ago, though.

Now I’m getting nostalgic!

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

It’s funny, those smart guys never challenged me on the race stuff. Does that tell you anything?

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin,

No. For one thing, I was specifically listing the racists. Second, they were mostly done posting before you came around.

A list of the smartest posters here and the smartest racist posters doesn’t have much overlap!

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I think if you read Demo’s comment carefully, you will note that he described only two of the batch as smart while making it clear that “smart” was in comparison to the rest of them. Does it tell me anything that smart guys who openly espoused racist views toward blacks never challenged you on the race stuff? What would you expect them to have said? “Armin, we can’t stand black people either but we think you might be a tad mistaken in underestimating the effect of the overlapping curves?” What it “tells” me is that racists don’t publicly attack fellow… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jill Smith
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

40 Acres was wicked because he could make me snicker against my will, my conscience, and my moral principles! He reminded me of Rhett Butler dissing the Sacred Cause to outrage the matrons presiding over Confederate charity balls. And Scarlett couldn’t help herself laughing either–which I hope is the only point of resemblance between her and me. But while 40 Acres was undoubtedly very bigoted against blacks and Jews, you could get him to concede minor points if you presented good evidence or if you could poke a genuine hole in his argument by pointing out an inconsistency. Some of… Read more »

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jonathan resorted to personal insults right off the bat. That kind of behavior causes me to assume some level of insecurity. I could be wrong of course, it’s just my personal assessment. You’re committing a form of the genetic fallacy when you say “this data cannot be considered reliable because of the beliefs of those presenting it.” That sword can easily cut both ways, as I’m sure you’d agree. So please, enough of that. It’s not just about being highly intelligent, it’s also about strength of character. People of weak character don’t tend to push against the grain, and given… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

No, the data cannot be considered reliable because it wasn’t peer reviewed by any established standard and made by heavily biased observers, some of whom don’t even have credentials in the field.

Although, to be honest, using 20-year-old data to prove a current trend does not suggest a particularly high intelligence.

That’s ridiculous, when looking at trends that take place over decades and centuries, having an 80-year data set that goes up to 2002 is perfectly legitimate. It takes years to do these studies and no one runs around updating every single study every 5 years.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

The data presented by any organization with a definite ax to grind should always be viewed with suspicion. That’s just common sense. Did you trust the “scientific” data presented by tobacco companies on the health risk of smoking a pack a day for thirty years? Did you trust Purdue Pharma’s clinical data on the harmlessness of Oxycontin? Do you trust the data on climate change presented by the Climate Justice Alliance? Do you accept without question the data presented by the Southern Poverty Law Center on the frequency of hate crimes committed against blacks and Jews? If you have ever… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jill Smith
Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, God bless you for that comment. Maybe, just maybe Armin takes it to heart and begins a long, serious questioning of what he has believed about race. I hope he has the courage to look at himself in the mirror and admit that he has been wrong about his black, brown, and red brothers and sisters.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

I’m not holding my breath. What Armin says about Jews is infinitely worse even though he’s willing to concede they’re not dumb.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin, where are you reading that digit span tests directly measure intelligence? The current consensus seems to be that these tests primarily Even measure the storage capacity of the auditory verbal short term memory. It was originally used as a subset of the WAIS and WISC to measure attention and memory. A high score on a digit span test can correlate with high intelligence as measured on other tests, but nobody would claim that the test directly measures analogical reasoning and capacity for abstract thought. The tests are not based on cultural knowledge but the fact that you can increase… Read more »

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I don’t like to agree with him most of the time, but your comment was actually both very wrong and pretty racist.

Armin
Armin
5 months ago

How?

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The bigger issue is that any general education program that requires you to be in the top 50% would be asinine! We can do distributions, right? I think you should structure a program so that 2.5-3 SDs below the mean can graduate, and if there is a need to differentiate cognitive skills do so some other way (GPA, SAT, specialized programs, whatever).

Also, much of the reason kids don’t graduate isn’t due to lack of intelligence, it is due to poor life structure or a lack of conscientiousness.

Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

So you want to put people with 85 IQ’s through 13 years of learning things that will almost all be irrelevant to them once they “graduate”? Why not focus the less intelligent toward developing trade skills during their formative years?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

The basics of most high school subjects (reading, math, history, science) are important for everyone, and only a minority of Black students are at 85 IQ or lower. I agree that trade skills should also be emphasized more in high school (again, for everyone), but high school academic subjects and learning to think through them are still important for all of society.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin, Not necessarily. But people with an IQ of 85 can easily earn to read well and follow instructions. They can learn arithmetic and basic numeracy. And they can learn civics and to value the history and cultural production of their people. I don’t have super high hopes for what school can accomplish, but I’m on board with all sorts of tracks as long as there is some flexibility given for students and families. Much if what I enjoy could be considered irrelevant to me or to a guy with an IQ of 85, I don’t want to be so… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

As a high school teacher, I could have made the same assumption about my white students with low-normal IQs. “This kid isn’t likely to go to college. He wants to work in the sawmill like his dad. Why am I torturing him with Shakespeare and the proper use of the subjunctive when he’s never going to need any of that? Why should he have to read poetry when he’d be better off studying his DMV manual?” So why didn’t I? Because there are kids with below average IQs who, through incredibly hard work, will actually achieve career success. Because those… Read more »

Heidi
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Nonsense. Providing a good education from the very beginning should see plenty of black Americans able to graduate–given the correct environment of adequate health (i.e. not too much exposure to alcohol, good-enough nutrition, etc), high expectations and strong support from family and any other educators.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Heidi

Armin might have unintentionally been on to something though. For those who are conspiracy-minded…. Of the 15 American states with the largest % White population, none of them have an exit exam for their students. West Virginia has the lowest average SAT score in the country, Idaho is 4th-lowest, yet neither state is willing to force their students to take exit exams to graduate. https://www.fairtest.org/graduation-test-update-states-recently-eliminated However, of the 15 states with the largest Black/Latino populations, 9 force their students to take an exit exam before graduating high school. Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Florida – by some coincidence the conservative states with… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Armin
Armin
5 months ago
Reply to  Heidi

What do you mean by “plenty?” I claimed 10%. “Plenty” would suggest at least half. And on what basis do you think this is even true? Are racial IQ disparities real or not?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I showed that your “10%” was false.

And why would “plenty” suggest “at least half”? Wouldn’t half be the midpoint, not the minimum?

Besides, test scores are correlated to parent social status, so even if America gave Black kids the same educational opportunity, they would come from lower SES families and therefore expect to score somewhat lower on average. If the average Black kid had the same parent ed level, SES status, and school experience as the average White kid, you could talk about half being attainable as a midpoint, rather than the 30% or so it’s at now.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Heidi

We need to focus on re-establishing the importance of the nuclear family.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

The moynihan report highlighted that point all the way back in 1965. Conservatives bring up the report often. However, I wonder if they actually read it, because the report notes that the primary factors behind the breakdown of the African-American family were: * intense social hostility towards strong Black men, up to and including organized violence and lynching of men who “didn’t know their place” * heavy urbanization caused by the flight from sharecropping * poor education * low wages for black heads of household * high unemployment for black men The report talks in quite fine-toothed detail as to… Read more »

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I’m sorry, but you really are being racist here. These stats are reflective of cultural problems, not ability based on skin color. Black students are no less capable than white students, nor asian students.

What you are demonstrating is that you have the same low expectations as the Left. They are not at all incapable of meeting the same standard.

holmegm
holmegm
5 months ago

These stats are reflective of cultural problems, not ability based on skin color Nobody actually thinks that these differences are “based” on skin color, so I assume you really mean “people groups” or something to that effect. But how do you know that the differences aren’t based (fully or partially) on real biological differences? The brain is biological. IQ is strongly inherited. It would be odd if different people groups (which are essentially very large extended families) didn’t show differences. Wouldn’t it? The reason that it’s an important question is that it would be a fool’s errand to demand that… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  holmegm

This would be a very long side discussion, but the main points would be: 1. Racial groups match very poorly with genetic categories. We’ve already had this entire discussion with citations in another thread, but for example some ethnic groups who would be considered “African”, “European”, and “Asian” are closer related to each other than multiple different sub-Saharan African groups are to each other. In fact, by some measures the entire human population outside Africa has less genetic diversity than “Black” Africans alone. Native Americans, who are considered among the lowest-IQ, are extremely closely related to East Asians, who are… Read more »

Heidi
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Thanks. I didn’t have time to go into that.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  holmegm

But many tall parents do in fact have short children and vice versa. Some high IQ couples are dismayed when they produce a normal IQ child. Some normal IQ couples are startled when they produce a highly gifted child. The point is that there is enough individual variation to make it both ludicrous and unjust to measure someone’s intellectual potential by his membership in a group. According to IQ data posted online, there is a 22 point difference in the average Singaporean and Filipino IQ. I don’t think these rankings are valid, but let’s assume for the moment that they… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jill Smith
Will
Will
5 months ago

Doug, re: your poorly written report on the Oregon piece. You either have poor reading comprehension skills, or you’re knowingly misleading your followers. One is easily correctable, the other is a deep character flaw.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

My guess is that he simply read one of the misleading articles from a propaganda outlet like AEI that had nearly the same title as his own piece, and then chose to do no further research.

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/oregon-democrats-resurrect-the-soft-bigotry-of-low-expectations/

It would have taken minimal research to discover that Oregon is still requiring the exact same math and reading standards for its Black/Brown students that most conservative states require for their White students. But he hasn’t shown any willingness to do even that much research, once he has the edgy headline in hand.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

So he copped the title of his post from another source without attribution? That’s nothing new.

This is the second or third time in the past two weeks that he has used false information in his blog posts.

I suggested to him months ago that he was in bad need of an editor for his Ride, Sally, Ride novel. Now he needs a fact checker for his blog posts unless he considers them to also be pieces fiction.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

It’s been happening at a pace of close to one post a week for the last two years straight.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I should have been more specific about his use of false information. He has used to to either make his case or to bolster it.

I do realize and appreciate how much time it takes for you to bring a corrected and balanced view to this blog. Lord knows it needs it.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
5 months ago

I’ve never called for any sort of organized banning of someone from any board, ever, but this situation is getting out of hand. Less than half a day in and already Jonathan has dominated the entire board, and with extreme consistency ignores half of every response to him, but expects others to analyze in detail entire walls of text. Simply responding to him in full would be a full time job unto itself, much less reading everything he references without clear citation that he expects you to take as authoritative. Its just not conducive to having a meaningful discussion. No… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Someone finally called for Armin to be banned, his anti-Black diatribes were too much…wait, it’s my fact-checking you have a problem with?

I’ll note there was 4-5 different commenters who praised my contributions in last week’s comment section. You must not think much of them.

And my initial comments here were concise, specific, and accurate. When people replied I tried to be concise, but at times needed to go longer because I made an effort to respond to every aspect of their post. Your argument is that I need to respond in even more detail, yet write less?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Armin needs to stop being racist, and if his behavior continues I think he should be banned too. I agreed that he was being racist, and told him so. But Justin here is entirely right, so stop deflecting. You need to re-shape your worldview I think.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I continually shape my worldview around the instructions of the God of Jesus Christ as expressed through his Bible and church. It is still molding me and nothing else remotely compares as an influence.

Justin’s main complaint was that I am posting too much, and you yourself are one of the main reasons why. Yours are among the 26 comments directed to me or about me today alone. I can’t respond to that? It’s not my fault the convo I started is the only one anyone wants to talk about.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
5 months ago

What course of action would you recommend to Armin so the could stop being a racist?

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

What kind of a question is that? Don’t be racist means don’t be racist. Literally no further action necessary.

Will
Will
5 months ago

Oh, I see. I had no idea racism was simply switch you could turn on and off. It’s obvious that Armin doesn’t think he is a racist. How would help him to understand that his beliefs are racist? Wilson has the same problem, maybe you could help him, too?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

It’s quite interesting that Armin posted a comment with 3 links, two of which were to openly White Supremacist material. Since the comment had three links it had to be approved by Wilson before it would have posted to the site, and it was indeed approved despite linking directly to White Supremacist material in a supportive manner.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I think a little charity to the host is in order here. Because it’s me, I’ll do a numbered list: 1. I doubt Doug approves comments himself. A web administrator probably does. 2. The reason for the approval is to make sure bots aren’t spamming the site with marketing. I doubt they read the posts, they just make sure that they don’t fit the pattern of spam. 3. Doug clearly allows a diversity of opinions and ideas on his blog (demands for cancelation notwithstanding) and the same spirit that allows your comments and Will’s comments and whoever else allows… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I was responding to Jonathan’s earlier suggestion that if Armin kept posting racist material, that he should be banned. Armin has been posting racist material on here for a long, long time, and continues to be allowed not only to post it but also to link to White Supremacist material online, some of which has in the past specifically triggered violent anti-Black actions. So Pastor Wilson is certainly not on the same wavelength that Jonathan was suggesting. In terms of Pastor Wilson’s own views, I don’t think he is overtly or intentionally racist like Armin but he certainly is more… Read more »

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Don’t you guys despise cancel culture?

CM
CM
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

At the very least it would be nice to be able to collapse certain threads as someone noted last week.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  CM

CM,

Nothing is stopping you. Just hover just below the far right corner of the beginning comment in a particular thread and “hide replies” will pop right up. Then stick your head as deep as you can in the sand.

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I don’t like the idea of banning anyone, but I do think our host here would be within his rights to admonish anyone, including Jonathan, to reign it in before considering banning if the number and length of posts is getting out of hand.

There is also no need to repeat all the corona arguments that have dominated a couple of threads recently, and I hope this particular section can remain free of this.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I can “ignore his incredibly aggressive posturing.” Well, almost. AS far as not having the time, yes, that’s very accurate.

It’s clear that Jonathan is being intentionally disruptive. He is hostile to this blog and everyone who appreciates it. On the other hand, sometimes a heckler draws a crowd. Jonathan is betting he is harming the blog, and so far, Wilson is betting against him.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

If it makes you feel better, I have zero desire to ever “disrupt” this blog or this comment section on any matter outside of specific bad statements and positions that I witness. You might notice that I actually only respond to a few topics here – typically race issues, money issues, promotions of violence, and misinformation on science or current events. If Pastor Wilson apologized for supporting a white supremacist group like the League of the South and then just preached the Bible for the next six months without speaking on those particular issues in a manner that I found… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Heidi
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Maybe if someone else would respond to Armin’s racist comments, Jonathan wouldn’t.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Heidi

That’s the rub, isn’t it. More than likely they agree with Armin.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

I don’t think they all agree. But it’s amazing that posters like Dave, FP, Cherrera, etc speak so vehemently against me even when I post simple factual statements, but won’t say a word against Armin. Either they simply don’t care about truth, they just care about sides. Since Armin is on the “right”, he’s on their side, so they don’t want to speak against him. Or they simply don’t know what to say. They don’t understand the subject, they don’t know how to do the research, they can’t just respond with “dirty liberal!” or by quoting their favorite right-wing media… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, will you please apologize for Black Lives Matter, Antifa, our Federal and state governments giving illegals free everything for breaking America’s laws, our current welfare system, and the SARS CoV-2 mandates?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I have never had any association with BLM or Antifa, nor have I publicly supported them.

Pastor Wilson was repeatedly closely associated with League of the South leaders and publicly defended them on this blog and in published books. He explicitly said they were not racist even as they were becoming more and more openly White Supremacist.

If Pastor Wilson apologizes for his support of the League of the South and all the false claims he made regarding their lack of racism, then I will apologize for all my Antifa associations. Deal?

Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you have never condemned anything about the welfare system, or illegals being paid to enter the US, or the government taking from those working to give to those who don’t work.

You have never condemned the racism of the BLM or Antifa or their anti-American basis. How about some equal time for condemning their racism?

How about a simple statement: I condemn BLM, Antifa, the current welfare system and allowing illegals to be given free stuff from hard working Americans.

What say you?

Last edited 5 months ago by Dave
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

First off, your constant demand for pointless virtue signaling is tiring.

Second, I have always condemned racism whenever I have seen it no matter who said it, including by some people in BLM. And I have apologized for all my racist associations every time I have been aware of one.

Now, I already made my position clear in the previous comment. I’d be happy for a quid pro quo with Pastor Wilson. I’m fatigued by your constant attempt to distract from his errors for no gain.

Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gentle Readers, Jonathan forgets that he supports giving illegals free stuff, the unbiblical welfare system and many other areas of America that are profoundly against scripture.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, respectfully I have to say I don’t think that’s a fair demand. I don’t remember ever reading posts in which you condemned the shootings at the synagogues in Pittsburgh and Poway. I can’t remember the subject ever coming up, but shouldn’t you have condemned them anyway? Your silence can only mean that you were on the side of the shooters. How can I consider you a true Christian when you didn’t voice your opposition to shooting Jews at prayer? For me to conclude that kind of thing about you solely on the basis of what you didn’t say about… Read more »

Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Hi Jill, I was pointing out how silly and incorrect Jonathan’s demands for Wilson to apologize for that which he can’t apologize. If you remember, a few weeks ago, I tried to get Jonathan to realize that we are guests here and that he may not demand anything from the host or others. He didn’t get the point at all. In reply to my thoughts, Jonathan used scripture that didn’t represent his position and then was unable to explain why he thought it did. That was especially true when I put his scripture in concert with the Bible stories they… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Let’s address these in order: 1. I have never asked Pastor Wilson to apologize for something that I won’t apologize for. Pastor Wilson made false statements in print, repeatedly, in open support for a white supremacist organization whose leaders he personally associated with. What you’ve accused me of has no relation to that whatsoever, I don’t have the slightest association with the groups you wish me to apologize for nor have I ever supported them. 2. You didn’t even understand the point I was making with the Scriptures I cited to you and stated I made claims that I never… Read more »

kyriosity
kyriosity
5 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Scrolling past works for me. It’s just a LOT of scrolling sometimes. 🙄

-BJ-
-BJ-
5 months ago

Pastor Wilson,

Thank you for answering my question about the RPW. As always, I am deeply grateful.

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago

Matt – the newly married letter. When women take the discussion of ideas as personal criticism, they are simply being feminine. This is a feminine trait (and not a criticism). Knowing this can help. Since becoming aware of this I have seen it often enough. It is always good to remember that male and female are not the same, and think and react differently differently. Regarding the forfeiting salvation issue, this needs to be taken seriously. The late David Pawson in the UK reckoned there are some 80 places in the NT that cannot be squared with ‘once saved, always… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
5 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken B,
Thanks, for a introducing a different topic. Don’t have much time right now, but I too have come to reconsider the matter. If actual apostasy is possible I think it is falling away from actual belief, not indulging in bad behavior, however I it may be that the the latter may well lead to the former.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

Reading through the new testament it is impossible to miss the constant exhortations to the saints that they are to “keep the faith” holdfast to the faith once delivered” “do not be led astray” etc. Further, the parable of the sower seems to have categories for faith that starts, but it is choked out or it is weak and withers. It is always best to start with God’s revealed will over his decretal will, and it seems clear to me that God’s revealed will is that we pay close attention to our faith and we treat it as something that… Read more »

Jane
Jane
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

The simplistic answer is “God uses means”. It doesn’t answer everything, but it gets you a good part of the way there. God uses the means of our active efforts to continue in faith, to grant us perseverance.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Thanks, Jane. I agree, but it does seem that some have a connection or a rooting in Christ and the church, but they then fall away. Hebrews 6, for instance, talks of those who “have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age” and yet have fallen away… this is a serious warning for us, and it is hard for me, as a creature, to square it with passages like John 10:28. What I do… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

“I don’t want to have a doctrine of perseverance and election that is impervious to that.” Exactly. Or even worse, an anemic doctrine of once-saved-always-saved that can tend toward antinomianism. Professing Christian, how do you live? Does that create cognitive dissonance? If so, what do you keep and what goes? Allowing for spiritual growth and differing levels of maturity, I believe there are ways an actual Christian cannot live their life and be at peace, and then something has to give. Or maybe there can be just a drifting toward unbelief, out of indifference. I’m inclined to believe in the… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

I believe there are ways an actual Christian cannot live their life and be at peace, and then something has to give. … Not so much a matter of losing salvation as casting it away.  I had a conversation with my wife about this subject just after reading Matt’s letter. She is in contact with mutual friends from fellowship connections decades ago. It is sad to see some of them have fallen away. One you wonder might only ever have really been nominal. Another was a radiant Christian but now openly atheist. In common with others I have watched fall… Read more »

Jane
Jane
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Agreed.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago

One sports blog I used to read had a feature that tracked which comments were new and highlighted them. A keystroke would cycle through them and mark them as read. It’s impossible to exaggerate how useful this feature is when comments get above 100, with multiple subthreads.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Yes, I typically have to do searches for “minutes” or “1 hour”, “2 hours”, just to be able to find the actual new material.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m sure that particular feature is non-trivial to implement, but man, what a feature.

kyriosity
kyriosity
5 months ago

I vote for a translation that uses “y’all” for the plurals. 😁

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

You have to be careful, in certain contexts “y’all” can be used in the singular. In order to be explicitly plural, you may want to use, “all y’all”.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

I’m sure I’ve heard “y’all” used in the singular. Therefore, I vote for a translation that uses “all y’all”.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

I’m not sure if it’s funny or terrifying that FP inadvertently voiced almost my exact comment just seconds after I had.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

One of my critics out there in the world has been a gent named Warren Throckmorton, and he teaches at Grove City, and he was part of the trouble in 2017. That by itself need not be unduly alarming, and with an establishment name like Throckmorton, we might even be reassured a bit. I mean, one thing a Throckmorton wouldn’t be is straight outa Compton. 

Pastor Wilson, yet again not even trying to be subtle with the dog whistles.

J.F. Martin
J.F. Martin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’re correct Jonathan…to be funny he should have said he was from Winchestertonfieldville, IA or something…and known that ‘outta’ has two T’s.

I remember that album from college, am I even allowed to say the group’s name anymore?

Warren’s CRT writings on his own blog suggest that he and Trueman should tip more pints together.

And ditto on the time search…reading here only once per day makes the hours / days demarcation easy to follow.

Be blessed!

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  J.F. Martin

Referencing the album isn’t an issue. But what sense does it even make to say that Throckmorton having a white name, clearly not from Compton, should “reassure” us? The joke relies on the idea that people from Compton would scare us, otherwise it doesn’t make sense.

Reminds me of when he repeatedly called Senator Obama a thug, called Nelson Mandela a thug, said that black men should stop wearing “thug uniforms” if they didn’t want people to cross to the other side of the street…there’s a ton of dog whistles on this blog, whether intentional or not.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Where’s the charity here? Saving up scraps of hard feelings for years, decades?

I don’t think the most notable thing about the name Throckmorton is that it’s a “white name,” but by all means, take an unsuccessful joke and interpret it as racism.

“If any man comes to me and does not hate his neighbor, he can not be my disciple.” – Political Correctness

Will
Will
5 months ago

“Saving up scraps of hard feelings for years, decades?” Hardly. So you’re ok with giving Wilson a pass on his sketchy, unrepentant past and present racism and misogamy? If you cared just a little bit, you could do a search right here on this blog and read it for yourself. He’s obviously not ashamed of it. But you strike me as someone who really doesn’t want to know. And that’s a shame. Your world wouldn’t come to an end if you acknowledged that Wilson is not the man you think he is or he claims to be. FYI – you’ve… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Jane
Jane
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

Wilson hates marriage? Where’d you get that?

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Sorry, my fat fingers. That should have been misogynistic. I’m pretty sure he’s all for marriage. Even for pedophiles.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I don’t think the most notable thing about the name Throckmorton is that it’s a white name either. Pastor Wilson is the one who chose to focus on that aspect, not me.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

And in terms of “hating one’s neighbor”, I have never, ever advocated for violence against anyone.

Whereas Pastor Wilson suggested that the Apache “deserved everything they got and then some.” Which is a remarkable claim considering that Pastor Wilson doesn’t think the White Confederates deserved what they got, and considering what the European colonists were already doing to Native Americans long before the Apache got involved.

I am asking for consistency, not for basing our support on our tribe alone.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago

I am almost always open to an interpretation that doesn’t involve any element of racism. I have said before that I don’t think Doug is “racist”. But I am having trouble understanding Doug’s comments in a way that doesn’t involve race. After pointing out Throckmorton’s “wokeness” as reasons for concern about his participation in the investigation at Grove City, Doug reassures us that at least Throckmorton has an establishment name. “I mean, one thing a Throckmorton wouldn’t be is straight outta Compton.” If Doug is saying that Throckmorton’s name means we can rest easy that he’s not a inner city… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jilly, if you’re willing to open your mind to that, I’m interested to know what you think of the manner in which Pastor Wilson weaponizes the word “thug”. It’s not just that he called Nelson Mandela a thug, not just that he repeatedly called Barack Obama a thug, it’s how he generally uses it that really bothers me. Clinton, Bush, Clinton, Trump, Biden: So far as I can tell, Pastor Wilson has never once called any of them thugs. Obama: Pastor Wilson has called him a thug on at least half-a-dozen occasions, dating back to even before he ever became… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Fun story: I once decided that it was a rule of architecture that men’s bathrooms should be placed to the left of the women’s bathrooms, or else farther down the hall. Since most buildings fit that pattern, and of course the ones that don’t are clearly just oversights, my speculation proves itself, regardless of what licensed architects may think.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I guess if you’ve usually seen men’s bathrooms on the left of women’s bathrooms then you might be naturally inclined to build the men’s bathroom on the left and not the right when given the opportunity, even if there’s no reason for it.

Similarly, if you’ve usually seen Black men get labeled as thugs then you might be naturally inclined to label them so yourself, even if there’s no reason for it.

We do tend to subconsciously adopt the patterns we observe. Which is why, when the patterns are bad ones, we should make an effort to stop.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The association between black and thug has become so commonplace that even linguists are postulating that thug has become the new N-word. Based on its etymology, the word was traditionally used to describe brutal assassins and ruffians of any race. But, as the professor points out in an interview, ‘Well, the truth is that thug today is a nominally polite way of using the N-word. Many people suspect it, and they are correct. When somebody talks about thugs ruining a place, it is almost impossible today that they are referring to somebody with blond hair. It is a sly way… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

A search on Google suggests that no one has ever called Obama a “Hawaii thug”, even though Hawaii is where he actually grew up (raised half the time by his white grandparents, in fact, which present company would have trouble feeling threatened by). Literally zero results outside of spam sites just stringing random words together. But “Hawaii thug” doesn’t institute the same fear of a black man that “Chicago thug” or “Kenya” or “Black Marxist Ghoul” do.

Athos
Athos
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Would you take a reference to a methhead as a slur against whites as a race, seeing as the stereotypical meth user in pop culture appears to be white? I think ‘straight outta compton’ is a reference to gang banger culture. As in, we can at least be reassured that the Throckmorton is not a violent criminal. I think it is really racist to conflate gangster culture with black culture in general, Jill. If someone criticises trailer trash culture, do you feel personal affront? Why should that same thing not apply to American blacks? Is a critical word about gangsters… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Athos

I think that the interpretation “Throckmorton’s white-sounding name reassures us that at least he’s not a violent criminal” from a city once legendary for black gangster culture is still pretty problematic. The obvious corollary is that no such assumption could be made about somebody with a black-sounding name. If Doug had written that Throckmorton’s Anglo-sounding surname should reassure us that he’s not a member of a murderous Mexican drug cartel, that would suggest that we can’t have that sense of reassurance about people named Delgado and Garcia. I don’t see how we can avoid the conclusion that if a white… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Athos

How would knowing someone’s last name show you that they’re not a criminal, unless you already assumed that people with white establishment names aren’t criminals?

“His name is Throckmorton, therefore he must not be a violent criminal” is a wild claim.

And it wasn’t a “critical word about gangsters”. If your interpretation is correct, then you’re saying we can immediately assume someone isn’t a gangster if we know they have that “good white” ethnic background.

And why the heck are we even talking about violent crime in this article?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
J.F. Martin
J.F. Martin
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Thug Life: a term used with pride, to describe a person who started out with nothing and built themselves up to be something. … The term was popularized in hip-hop culture, where thug life goes hand-in-hand with iconic rapper Tupac Shakur, or 2Pac. “Control the language, control the masses.” It is always curious to me how one person’s term of derision can be another’s term of endearment. Not that Pastor Wilson (or many of our posters) are trying to be flattering to the subjects of their writing…but when someone calls me pedantic, my first reply is; “you say that like it’s… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  J.F. Martin

At least some set of every group will attempt to appropriate slurs used against them in order to gain some feeling of control. There are white country folk who proudly declare themselves “rednecks”, and slurs like “greaser” and “paddy” eventually had groups adopt them as their own. Just one election ago, “Deplorable” gear sold like hotcakes.

But, of course, some subsets’ attempts to gain power through taking over a word rarely does much to diminish the venomous use of the words when used by out-group persons in order to degrade.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

What dies a black last name even sound like. The most common black last names in America are utterly anglo sounding. Things like “Smith” and “Green” and “Thomas.” Throckmorton is a quite uncommon surname but I don’t see why a black person couldn’t have it…

Really it’s just an odd attempted joke all around.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

In the 2000 US census, there were over 160,000 Washingtons and 90% of them were black. Jefferson and Jackson are both more common among black people than among white. The first two names are the only ones that I think are a tip off to racial identity. Most slaves didn’t have actual surnames; if one was necessary, they temporarily used the name of their current owner. Upon emancipation, they were free to choose their own. Many didn’t want the name of their former owner but some chose the name of the plantation. Most chose the Anglo names of established American… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jill Smith
Athos
Athos
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I was talking about gangbangers from straight outta compton; if I recall correctly that was about the bloods and the crips, neither of which are white gangs. I was trying to not be repetitive. Should have said, “As in, we can at least be reassured that the Throckmorton is not a gangbanger.” I’ve never seen this Throckmorton, but it is a nerd name. It is the kind of name you associate with a lawyer or accountant.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Athos

Or a 60-year-old psychology professor at Grove City College. Having typed his name so many times today, I got mildly curious about the Throckmortons, past and present. There are 3,916 Throckmortons currently living in the US. There was a SCOTUS case Throckmorton v. the US about the government’s right to end litigation of land claims based on fraud. A Throckmorton pioneered the study of underwater archaeology. And a long ago female Throckmorton married Sir Walter Raleigh.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Athos

Imagine if someone said, “Throckmorton sounds like a nerd name, at least we can be assured he’s not one of those racist Idaho rednecks”. Then clarified, “Oh no, I’m clearly not saying that all Idahoans are racists, but Idaho has been associated with a lot of racists and that’s all I’m referring to.”

How would that “joke” be taken around here?

And to be clear again, the post had literally nothing to do with gangbanging or anything like that, and the only reason “Throckmorton” is considered not to sound like a Compton name is because it doesn’t sound Black.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Athos

If a non-white person referred to Joe Manchin as a “West Virginia methhead” and referred to Doug Wilson as an “redneck methhead” and had a tendency to talk about the negative traits of “white methheads”, then wouldn’t you think they either had an issue with folk of that race or were trying to trigger them?

And even if you knew their heart and were really convinced that wasn’t their intension, wouldn’t you counsel them to stop doing it?

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I won’t claim that I “get” the joke, I don’t. As go alternative interpretations, maybe he was being tongue-in-cheek about “Throckmorton” being at all comforting. If anything, I’d be more suspicious of a Throckmorton being woke than a Thomas or a Sevinsky. Doug has been pretty clear that he sees CRT as a phenomenon originating with affluent whites. Which, of course it is, historically.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Can you support this claim?

Doug has been pretty clear that he sees CRT as a phenomenon originating with affluent whites. Which, of course it is, historically.

Wikipedia states that critical race theory was first proposed by Derrick Bell, who is quite clearly black, and the coining and popularization of the term appears to have started at a workshop hosted by Kimberlé Crenshaw, Neil Gotanda, and Stephanie Phillips, who appear to be two black folk and an asian-american.

It’s interesting to just assume that white people did it though.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I don’t feel like digging, but Doug has, on many occasions, said things to the effect of “there is nothing whiter than being woke.” When people use CRT or Critical Race Theory they almost never have in view the actual theory as propounded by academics, it is a placeholder or shorthand for general woke and DEI stuff. And yes, in my experience, middle class white women are the leading group that is passionate about this stuff. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that those are the people who make up 95% of the staff of HR departments (again, in my… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’ve spent enough years in enough Black communities that I can say with confidence that the large majority of Black folk believe things about America and American history that would be called “Critical Race Theory” by people like Wilson.

A quick reference – polls suggest that over 80% of Black folk say there is systematic discrimination in America and over 90% say that White privilege exists. Yet if I was a Sunday School teacher in Christ Church and I started teaching that White Privilege was real, would I not be accused immediately of teaching CRT?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I agree with you. Most black people believe in something like systemic racism and are at favorite toward government action to combat it, though there is a lot of diversity. But there it is also true that after what Vox called “The Great Awokening” white progressives views on race went further toward what we would consider CRTesque topics than black folks. White liberals were more likely to say it is impossible for black people to get ahead, they were more likely to support affirmative action (in polling) and they also had less realistic views about the average income of… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Yes, as I sort of implied, you have to separate “hard CRT” – which itself would be difficult, considering how general and diverse CRT is – as opposed to “things propagandists call CRT”, which is so broad as to cover the views of almost every black person in the country.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I should have probably just said Critical Theory. In my defense, CRT really is an outgrowth or instantiation of Critical Theory.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

“Critical Race Theory” is used so broadly by the right and “Critical Theory” so basic that conflating anyone who speaks out on racial power dynamics with some mid-20th century European philosophers is a stretch. Black folk who care about history and society would still be reading DuBois, Woodson, Baldwin, etc. and saying the exact same things they say now about race and power even if the entire line of philosophers from Horkheimer to Foucault never existed.

Dismissing the real concerns of Black folk as if they’re just parroting White ideas is really demeaning.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’ve got real nerve trying to parlay a disagreement about the currents of intellectual history into accusations of racial pride. But whatever apology you owe me on that account is insignificant. Your behavior is imitative of the devil, and I’m genuinely worried about your soul.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Big jump you just made right there.

I think it’s demeaning to take a field of study clearly founded by black folk and assume it was started by “affluent whites”. There’s no need to do that, it adds nothing to the conversation. But you jump from there to “racial pride”?

And I care little so far as you what you think of my soul, I have hundreds of people who care much about my soul who know more about it than you. I do wonder if you have the same concerns for Pastor Wilson, and if not, why not?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Interestingly, one of the articles Pastor Wilson posted in support of his worries against Grove City College (one that actually discusses race and seems to be 100% about people not named Warren Throckmorton) specifically attacks the Grove City president for conflating “Critical Race Theory” with “Critical Theory” and says that his denials that Grove City have ever supported Critical Theory are irrelevant, cause it’s the “race” part that’s the real issue. The author claims that denying you’ve ever taught any Critical Theory is not good enough, because those who are concerned about Critical Race Theory are more worried about “Critical… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago

I think that Doug’s fondness for playing the role of a provocateur who makes fun of our orthodoxies about race sometimes leads him to make comments that sound racist regardless of his personal views. The fact that such comments are intended humorously doesn’t change that. I wish he would just stop doing that. But, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I think you are naïve regarding Wilson’s intentions. He’s not playing around. His history says otherwise. He is a cult leader in sheep’s clothing. Don’t take my word for it look it up for yourself. There’s plenty out there to confirm it.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

That’s very true. Two related points would be that there are some glaring nonsensicalities in the orthodoxies, and also, many people default very quickly to “I don’t understand what he just said, but he clearly didn’t genuflect to our orthodoxies so he’s RACIST!”

I mentioned I can’t claim to get the Throckmorton joke, but I really did get the “white babies” joke. I was tracking 100% with that one.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

That’s a lot of words within quotes that have no relation to anything I said.

Why would you agree with Jill’s stance (“playing the role of a provocateur who makes fun of our orthodoxies about race sometimes leads him to make comments that sound racist”) and disagree with mine (“Pastor Wilson, yet again not even trying to be subtle with the dog whistles”) when they’re almost the same?

A “dog whistle” is making an allusion to a topic without saying it. Both Jill and I feel like Pastor Wilson was doing that with race here, do you disagree?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Farinata
Farinata
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I think the joke is about subverted expectations. Throckmorton sounds like he should be a boring conservative, WASPy kind of guy, not a racial revolutionary like Ibram Kendi or Farrakah. That such a fellow is actually woke makes the problem seem worse; i.e. it is not at all reassuring. Like if Texas elected a communist governor.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Farinata

Nonsensical because the entire post was about LGBTQ issues, not race. Why would you even be thinking about “racial revolutionaries” or a publicly anti-LGBTQ figure like Farrakhan in the midst of an LGBTQ debate? How would a pro-LGBTQ guy not being Black somehow subvert expectations?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gentle Readers, Jonathan doesn’t know that Nelson and Winnie Mandela were terrorist thugs forcing their way on South Africans of all colors and status. This peace loving couple was on the international terrorist list for decades for their violent actions. Necklacing was a favorite tactic. That’s where the ANC terrorists would put tires over a person, throw in some gas and burn them to death. Another favorite was killing all the leaders of opposition parties. Oh and don’t forget the bombings. Yes, Mandelas were terrorist thugs, no matter what the internet says about them today. Yes, it’s A-OK to call… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I’m not a Mandela fan boy, but I also don’t think you should conflate Winnie and Nelson and lay necklacing at Nelson’s feet. Nelson was in jail then prison from 1968 – 1990 (often suffering brutal conditions) and this is the time when most of the worst atrocities took place. Winnie, on the other hand, deserves the opprobrium. She was undoubtedly involved in the murder of informants and said “with our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.” The fact that Nelson divorced her for infidelity, rather than for being a murderous psycho may be a… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, What you neglected to mention is that Nelson Mandela was in prison for a reason — in fact, 156 of them, as you’ll see below. Among Mr. Mandela’s more notable, ahem, accomplishments: Mr. Mandela co-founded the uMkhonto we Sizwe (MK, or ‘Spear of the Nation’), the guerrilla arm of the African National Congress, which carried out terror attacks at shopping centers, movie theaters, and other civilian targets. Mr. Mandela pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism, hence his imprisonment. Mr. Mandela personally signed off on numerous terrorist acts while in prison. Among them: -Church Street West,… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Nelson Mandela won his first trial in a South African court, because he hadn’t committed any violence or supported any violent revolution.

Then came the Sharpeville massacre, where government forces shot 250 nonviolent protestors, killing 79. AFTER that happened, Mandela gave up on nonviolent protest and began committing small-scale acts of sabotage and bombings, mostly against infrastructure and with minimal civilian casualties. That is what he was imprisoned for.

Why is it okay for Confederates and Revolutionaries to fight back violently, but Mandela is a “thug” if he does so?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Then came the Sharpeville massacre…” And on what planet does that justify Mandela’s subsequent acts of public violence and terrorism? Remember, he pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism. Terrorism is not “fighting back”, Jonathan. Because it involves innocents. Look at the list again: -Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985 -Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986 -Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 -Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988 These are places where lots of people gather, Jonathan. Stop trying to whitewash Mandela. He was an unrepentant Communist, an adherent to a sick,… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You get your material from inaccurate extremist sites.

* Mandela did not plead guilty. This is proof you copy-pasted this from an erroneous internet rant and know nothing of the topic.

* Your list was acts committed when Mandela was in prison. The claim that Mandela planned them comes from the same rants you copied the first false claim from.

I don’t think violence justifies violence. I don’t support violence or war. But Pastor Wilson does. The acts Mandela was actually responsible for were small-scale sabotage and bombings of infrastructure and military targets.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Peter Hammond, who met with Mandela in person, claimed that Mandela plead guilty. At any rate, the court found Mandela, along with his accomplices, guilty — and at the end of the day, this is what matters. Why you think splitting hairs here helps your case is anyone’s guess.

As for your second bullet point, check the transcript. I mentioned the acts took place while Mandela was in prison. And no, I didn’t claim that Mandela planned them, but that he signed off on them. Still approval. Still evil. Still factual. So what’s your point? That you can’t read?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Why are you doubling-down on these ridiculous 3rd-person prison whispers rather than the actual public documents? Mandela’s trial is a matter of public record.

MAGISTRATE: [to Mandela] Your application is dismissed. Will you now plead to your charges?

MANDELA: I plead NOT GUILTY to both charges, to all the charges.

And you continue to offer zero evidence for your other false claims.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Why are you doubling down on your fallacies? I gave specific incidents, which anyone can look up. You simply scream, “False!” and think that’s enough.

Again, check the transcript. At the end of the day, the court found Mandela guilty, and THAT’S WHAT MATTERS, not how he plead. That you keep harping on this only proves that you are a contentious, insecure person.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You voiced an obvious falsehood and claimed Mandela pled guilty because your entire knowledge of the case came from copy-pasting an internet rant that contained all of the false accusations you made.

Mandela pled not guilty, it’s a matter of public record, easy to check, and your lack of awareness of this shows how little research you do when you make these wild claims.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

And Mandela was found guilty by the court. You are literally arguing a point that doesn’t matter.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

And yes, Mandela was commander when his forces committed acts of sabotage on government and military installations and public lines. They aimed to limit bloodshed and there were few civilian casualties. In the same time the White Apartheid government killed far more people in a massacre of Black civilians.

I’m waiting for why Confederates were in the right and noble heroes we should emulate, while Nelson Mandela was “a thug and a bad man” for responding to a far worse situation than they ever faced with far less violence than they used.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

They aimed to limit bloodshed and there were few civilian casualties.”

Bull. The Nelson Mandela foundation website admits the ANC killed mostly civilians. They even have an article about it entitled, “ANC Killed Mostly Civilians”.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

How many more false claims are you going to make?

Nelson Mandela was active in the ANC from 1943 and became a leader until his imprisonment in 1962. In those 20 years almost no civilians were killed by the ANC, and that remained true until 1976.

The article you dishonestly refer to cites the period from 1976 to 1984, when they find 51 civilians died in ANC attacks, about 6 a year. Mandela was NOT commander of the forces that did that and those deaths have nothing to do with the actions he was imprisoned for.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Mandela co-founded the MK. He bears responsibility. Sorry the truth hurts your feelings.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You’ve gone from claiming that Mandela signed off on those murders to admitting he only founded the group 20 years earlier.

“Founder” blame goes to Nathan Bedford Forrest’s KKK too, right? But while MK was founded to fight against oppression with the objective of minimizing bloodshed, the KKK was founded to re-institute oppression with no shame of bloodshed. We won’t even get into the thousands Forrest and the Confederates killed in the decade before that.

But while Nelson Mandela is a “thug and a bad man” here, Pastor Wilson has acted as an apologist for Forrest. Why is that?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My claims have been consistent. You’re confused because you know so much that isn’t so.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Democrat, so I have no problem laying blame for the KKK at his feet. After all, the KKK was the terrorist wing of the Democrat party, much like the MK was the guerilla arm of the ANC.

And if you want to know why Doug “acted as an apologist for Forrest”, then why don’t you ask him? Or is this you flailing around in yet another pathetic attempt at a gotcha?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Your claims have not been consistent. You falsely claimed that he had signed off on attacks on civilians in the 1980s. Then you falsely attributed those murders to him while discussing his trial. And you falsely claimed he had pled guilty to those attacks. You also falsely claimed I had failed to condemn his violent acts.

Now you’re merely saying “well he founded the group therefore he bears responsibility”, even though he was explicitly limiting bloodshed when he led them. Which is nothing like what you originally claimed.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Because he was black man, plain and simple. You just ripped the mask off of Wilson and his racist supporters.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago

FP, Thanks for laying out the charges. I have seen it claimed that Mandela was involved in operating the MK from prison, but I have never seen anything that clearly linked him to those attacks in the 80s. Do you have any good sources credibly linking them to Mandela (as the responsible party – “signed off”)? Also, the MK was formed in 1961 and Mandela was arrested in 1962. I don’t think they attacked any personnel targets while he was at their head, did they? Again, I haven’t seen any documentation that he was involved in murderous attacks, but I’m… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I did research on this several years ago and IIRC, 95% of the “terrorist acts” that Mandela’s forces were accused of didn’t involve people getting hurt at all. However, one or more attacks were made against military personnel and a bombing of a power station or something like that killed 1-2 operators. However, the total # killed by the ANC from 1943 to 1975 was miniscule and in line with their stated objective to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. During that period they were closer to The Weathermen than to, say, the Jim Crow South.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

However, the total # killed by the ANC from 1943 to 1975 was miniscule and in line with their stated objective to limit civilian casualties as much as possible.”

Nope. From the article I referenced elsewhere, “ANC Killed Mostly Civilians”, on the Nelson Mandela foundation’s own website:

The final report includes a volume containing case studies of more than 19000 victims of gross human rights violations on both sides of the struggle against apartheid.

Military operatives, prominent political activists and leadership figures are “poorly represented” on the list of victims, the report observes.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

That quote does literally nothing to contradict my statement. The site explicitly states that the vast majority of violence came after 1975, exactly like I already said, and the total victims number includes the enormous crowds brutalized by the South African government. There isn’t a single word on that page about the ANC killing anyone while Mandela was in charge of operations.

Do you think there’s a single person here who can’t see through you?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, That is my understanding as well. FP specifically claimed that Nelson “signed off on” MK terrorist operations in the 80s. I have seen this claim other places as well, but it has always been clearly antagonistic sources with no references. I find it hard to believe that Nelson was able to get operational details in prison to “sign off” on anything, but I’m open to the idea that it could have happened and I would be interested to see some references. I think Nelson’s refusal to “unconditionally reject violence as a political weapon” in 1985 (as a condition of… Read more »

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Why would you believe anything that fellow has to say? He’s proven himself to be liar.

Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, Nelson Mandela had plenty of blood on his hands.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Oh, so you’re now a proponent of nonviolence as well? Better late than never.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Yeah, on all sorts of levels Winnie appears to have been a pretty nasty fighter and person. I would no more support her than the violent White Apartheid government or violent Confederate slaveowners.

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

In Jonathan’s world, Trump or DW saying something that might be mean is worse than far-left terrorism or horrific black-on-white crime, whether in S. Africa or the U.S. The latter is happening frequently near where I live, particularly to elderly whites and lone teen white boys. And those Soros’ DAs, with their catch-and-release programs…I won’t even start on that. But since the WaPoop or NPravdaR won’t do stories on it, it must not be real. We’ll just ignore it and read the 11,345th made-up story about Jan. 6 instead. Mere Woke-i-anity at its finest!

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I oppose violence in all circumstances, and have condemned it when it happens.

Not surprised to see that you’re one of those, “Black Crime!” guys. Are you a Breitbart and American Renaissance reader too like Armin?

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You have never once condemned the thug Mandela for using violence. Instead, you lamely try to downplay it, and whatever you can’t downplay, you try to rationalize away.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

On multiple occasions I have stated that I don’t support Mandela’s violent acts. In fact, I have directly condemned it in a statement to you. Your capacity for falsehood knows no bounds.

However, I don’t randomly call Black revolutionaries (or even Black politicians) “thugs” while supporting White revolutionaries and politicians are advocate for far worse violence.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No, you haven’t. And you’re not condemning him here.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

False. Again. Here are some quotes. Many of these statements were made directly to you and yet you still claim I haven’t said it, which shows how far your falsehoods go. In fact, your direct reply to one of these statements was, “So suck it”.  I condemn Mandela’s violence and the violence of others …. I oppose any sort of killing, and I also oppose many of Mandela’s violent activities that stopped short of killing.  …. I firmly disagree with any use of violence by Nelson Mandela …. I still decry Nelson Mandela’s violence and believe it was counterproductive and… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Wow. Once upon a time, you actually found the moral fortitude to issue a condemnation of Mandela for his use of violence. Bravo! Here, have a gold star.

Now if we could only get you to quit defending and spreading misinformation about him. He was a thug and a terrorist, full stop.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I wrote those same words directly to you, FP, the last time you lied about me and claimed I hadn’t condemned Mandela’s violence. And you had the audacity to come back and repeat the lie today, and when it was proven wrong your only response is to mock me.

This is the 8th or 9th time I have caught you in a false statement and proved it false in the last two weeks alone. And every time, instead of apologizing, you just deflect to continued mocking insults.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’ve caught you in false statements dozens of times and proved it false every time, and every time, instead of apologizing, you double down.

And you wonder why I mock you.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

FP, not a single person here will believe you on that one, so who do you think you’re talking for? Let’s make a list just from today: “Mr. Mandela pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism” – False, Mandela pled not guilty . “Mr. Mandela personally signed off on numerous terrorist acts while in prison. Among them:” – False, there is no evidence Mandela ordered any of those acts . “Remember, he pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism. Terrorism is not “fighting back”, Jonathan. Because it involves innocents. Look at the list again:… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“…not a single person here will believe you on that one…” So far, you’re the only one contesting it, unless your pet decides to jump in. Dave and I are on the same page. Even Demo signaled a willingness to believe, given the evidence. And nothing you said renders any of my claims false. You are literally asserting that they are false, and, as we all know, your assertions don’t mean diddly-squat. Besides, you’re losing the plot. The fact is, Mandela was a Communist thug, and no amount of you trying to whitewash him will ever change that fact. It… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

And we’ll make this false claim #15 that I’ve proven wrong:

And nothing you said renders any of my claims false. You are literally asserting that they are false, and, as we all know, your assertions don’t mean diddly-squat.

Complete lie. I proved your false claims about Mandela’s plea wrong with direct quotes from the trial transcript, and I proved your false claims about my statements wrong with direct quotes from our previous conversations.

And I used similar evidence last week, though then you just ghosted each time you were proven wrong rather than trying so hard like today.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Complete truth. All you did was argument-by-assertion with your bullet-list. Hate to burst your bubble kiddo, but you don’t have all knowledge.

And Mandela was convicted in a court of law for his crimes. That is of far more importance than how he pled.

Will
Will
5 months ago

By a court of law in, at that time, one of the most wicked and unjust countries on earth.

Last edited 5 months ago by Will
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
5 months ago

FP, I am certainly willing to believe if there is evidence, but so far all of your claims appear to be false. Mandela pled NOT GUILTY in his 1962 trial and again, along with the other 9 remaining accused, pled NOT GUILTY, in the Rivonia trial. As far as I can tell he never pled guilty to anything before a court of law. Also, since you didn’t provide any references when promoted, I did some research and I can’t find anything linking him to the 80s terrorist acts or to necklaces beyond the barest hearsay and innuendo. So far each… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago

I wonder if Jonathan is still posting (and editing) every 4.5 minutes from a home without electricity, indoor plumbing or high-speed internet, as he once claimed? He must be quite the marathon runner if he’s high-tailing it from his Gilligan’s Island-style hut to the public library so often.
The Content Cluster Muster (06.15.17) | Blog & Mablog (dougwils.com)

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I’m still wondering how the guy who said that guns are contrary to the gospel could afford his gun.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Lie #16.

I have never, ever said that guns are contrary to the gospel. I can’t remember when I didn’t own a gun. I’m an excellent target shot and my family are proud meat hunters.

I think killing other people, or carrying a gun for the purpose of potentially killing another person, is against the gospel.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes you have. Here it is: “Not only is the idea that guns in general make one safer against all evidence, I believe it to be contrary to the Gospels.”

Just remember: Any squawking on your part about misrepresentation will be hypocritical. And I will laugh at you.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

I doubt your reading comprehension is so bad that you couldn’t understand that sentence. So either you’re just trolling, or you legitimately think that other readers here are too stupid to understand it. I clearly did not claim that guns are contrary to the gospel.

Under what circumstances do you believe it is okay to violate the Biblical prohibition on lying? Or do you, personally, adhere to the Bible yourself anyway? You keep avoiding the question every time I’ve asked you.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I was forced to leave that home a year ago in order to come back and care for my dying father-in-law, Cherrera. (In addition to the fact that the pandemic had shut down our work months earlier anyway.) Mentioned my move at the time. But nice to know you’re thinking of me.

And if you really doubt where I was living or what conditions were like there, Jilly and Demo can verify any details you wish.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Forgive me for missing your comment about moving in your sea of comments clogging up this blog. I have better things to do than read all of them. And heavens, no, I don’t need to hear cat ladies vouch for each other’s circumstances. Your claims fail a basic smell test, as they often do. You were doing the same kind of mass commenting in the 2017 post, at all hours of the day and night. You responded to anything remotely directed at you, some of your replies being torturously long rambling rants. The idea of you doing this while living… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

You just spoke in a degrading manner about a Christian woman who posts on this blog with no justification whatsoever. I’ll let God be the judge.

There are articles and news clips about our life and work. So some random blowhard doubting that reality just to deflect from having been caught posting falsehoods doesn’t phase me.

If you fear God, remember that He is the judge, and He knows the truth. If you don’t fear slandering Christians, then I will pray God has mercy on your ignorance, because the judgment foretold in Scripture is severe.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

My comment stands. Jesus said “ye shall know them by their fruits” and I call it like I see it. I could have used a much more derogatory term if I was truly “slandering” someone but didn’t. I’ve seen you call people “idiots,” “racists,” and many other terms based not on Biblical discernment but your warped worldview. And lying, refusing to admit it and then doubling down? You’re the king of that on this site and it’s not even close. If there are articles and newsclips about you, why not use your real name and start your own site…instead of… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by C Herrera
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Yet again, most of what you say is untrue or badly exaggerated. In order to save space, I’ll have to say “see above comment”.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I am undoubtedly a cat lady. That doesn’t make me a liar, although it does tend to mean I transport cat hair wherever I go. Jonathan is not a cat lady and he has never “vouched” for my circumstances. Demo knows where Jonathan was and what he was doing. Does that make Demo a cat lady too? Concerned as you appear to be about the precarious financial position of Jonathan’s wife, you will be relieved to know that he is currently employed as a professor of anthropology and archaeology at a major university. You may not be aware that professional… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

So Jonathan is not an unemployed benefits ‘scrounger’, and it being the Christmas vacation for universities would have time on his hands to post here.

The assumptions made by the Trumpist element here regarding those they disagree with are sometimes amusing – that I am left wing and woke being one example – but you are right to call this out when this gets too nasty and personal.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
5 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Jonathan has said several times that he returned to the US less than two years ago to care for a sick relative. People here who have known Jonathan for years know exactly where he lived overseas and also know the primitive conditions under which he was living. If Jonathan doesn’t want to tell you the name of the country in which he was stationed, I’m certainly not going to share that information. But I doubt you would believe me anyway. It’s so much more fun for you to believe that Jonathan is a hypocrite and that anyone who defends him… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

There is literally zero evidence that Nelson Mandela ever committed, directed, or approved of necklacing, and it never happened under his authority. Nor is there any evidence that he ever directed the killings of any opposition leaders. Yes, Nelson Mandela used violence as a revolutionary tactic, in response to even greater violence directed towards his people. Pastor Wilson has consistently said that revolutionary violence is supportable. Mandela’s forces focused on sabotage, bombing installations when civilians were not present and minimizing casualties. While the White Apartheid forces were massacring protesters. Why would it be laudable for the Confederates to fight violently,… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“There is literally zero evidence that Nelson Mandela ever committed, directed, or approved of necklacing…” From the Guardian, Dec 5, 2013: It has been long assumed that Mandela, in prison, would have strongly condemned necklacing. Indeed, it was reported, and widely believed, that after Winnie had raised the issue – in 1986, when she declared that South Africans would liberate themselves with matchboxes and tyres – her husband had summoned her to Pollsmoor prison, in Cape Town and reprimanded her for it. It has emerged, however, from a document that circulated among journalists and academics in South Africa, and which… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You say “from the Guardian” as if your account was part of a Guardian news piece, when in reality it was an opinion piece by a white apartheid-era South African journalist. The only evidence was a 3rd-person account from a lawyer convicted of fraud who was representing Winnie Mandela and had every reason to claim support for her. A statement supposedly made with no one else present, which also includes the ridiculously false claim that not one black person had attacked Winnie. From a lawyer who later had to refund over R700,000 and issue a public apology after being convicted… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You said there literally was no evidence that Nelson Mandela approved of necklacing. And yet, there it is: Literally evidence, your pathetic ad-hominems notwithstanding. In a left-wing rag, no less.

Your denials of reality are truly bizarre — and truly amusing.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Editing your comment to include smears about the source? Bad form.

The piece I quoted from in the Guardian was an obituary — literally a puff piece.

Besides, your edit does nothing to wipe the egg off your face. Trying to trash the person who wrote the article is literally a fallacy.

By the way, that document the Guardian article references are the minutes of a meeting that Mandela, Winnie and Ayob attended inside Pollsmoor prison. That is literally a first-person account.

Why you insist on misrepresenting stuff all over the place is beyond me. It’s literally pathological.

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

You claim it was a “puff piece”, yet the accusation was the writer’s Exhibit A in a series of nine consecutive paragraphs criticizing Mandela and listing his faults.

And quoting one person repeating a statement from a document they heard that someone else had discovered by a different person who was writing something they claimed to have heard a 3rd person say to a 4th person is definitely not a first-person account.

Adding all the insults doesn’t improve your comment, you may at some point realize that it causes serious people to view you even less seriously.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Well, it’s a good thing that you’re not a serious person, then. Because the writer quoted directly from the document, which is still literally evidence, your voluminous bluster notwithstanding. Honestly, we’d all feel less insulted if you simply knew when to quit. The fact is, you claimed there literally is no evidence Mandela approved of necklacing, which I immediately proved wrong, and here you are, continuing your fallacy jihad with egg all over your face. You are being contentious for the sake of being contentious. I’d tell you this sort of behavior would cause serious people to view you even… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Original false claim I responded to: Mandela “was a terrorist thug” and “necklacing was a favorite tactic”, as was “killing the leaders of opposition parties.”

Last ditch attempt to salvage: Nelson Mandela never committed, ordered, or publicly supported necklacing, but you did find a quote from the long-discredited lawyer of the person who actually praised necklacing, who once wrote (before being convicted of financial fraud and apologizing for defamation) that he had heard an imprisoned Mandela once state that he was okay with a speech where necklacing had been praised. This document has never been corroborated.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Don’t know where you got that idea. I still stand by my claims, and you still have egg on your face.

And whether or not Mandela plead guilty is immaterial. What counts is that he was indicted for 193 acts of terrorism, and the court found him guilty. He should have gotten the death penalty.

Even his own foundation’s website admits the MK, which Mandela co-founded, killed far more civilians than security force members.

Christians don’t defend evil, Jonathan.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

That’s the second time you quoted civilians killed from 1976-1984 and falsely implied it was related to Mandela’s conviction in 1962. You are a false witness.

I condemn all acts of violence, especially against civilians. It’s still a fact that the civilian deaths you list did not occur during Mandela’s time as head of ANC’s paramilitary wing. Also, it lists 51 civilian deaths from the ANC, which while deplorable is fewer than what Apartheid forces killed in a single incident. Miniscule compared to what Americans, Brits, Confederates, etc. did in their conflicts. And they were decades after Mandela’s trial.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Nope, I am a true witness. I never implied it was related to Mandela’s conviction. Be nice if you’d quit misrepresenting what I say. It’s a form of lying, and you wouldn’t want to be a liar, now would you?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Everyone can read what you said, FP. So who are you trying to fool anymore?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Why don’t you just speak straight for a minute.

You claim that Mandela was convicted of 193 acts of terrorism. (I have no idea where you got that number.)

If you’re so certain that’s the # he was convicted of, why don’t you tell me the TOTAL number of civilians killed in all of those attacks. Heck, tell me the TOTAL number of civilians killed by the ANC in the entire 20 years of ANC history that preceded Mandela’s trial.

That would be a straight answer. Which is why I’m certain you’ll dodge it.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Let him go. There’s no reasoning with a pathological liar.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

It’s interesting to see who sides with him and won’t call him out. Even when he says the most obscene or false things, the majority of commenters who jump on me at every opportunity let him go no matter how often he lies.

Also fun to watch him avoid questions. He speaks with such foul language and ignorance of Scripture that I’ve asked him 10+ times whether he’s a Christian or a church-goer, and he never answers. Doesn’t bother those posters, because it’s more important to them that he hates me than that he follows Jesus.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You know, I was just thinking the same thing, about how when Jonathan says the most obscene or false things, the majority of commenters who jump on me (and really, there’s only a few) at every opportunity let him go no matter how often he lies. It’s also fun to watch Jonathan avoid questions. He speaks with such foul language and ignorance of Scripture that I have asked him whether he’s a Christian or a church-goer. He may have answered the question in the affirmative, but given the frequency of his lies and that he’s nothing more than an internet… Read more »

Last edited 5 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

That’s the 3rd or 4th time you’ve done that in the last couple weeks. I guess you find it cute? Not sure who you think you’re winning over with those displays.

Ken B
Ken B
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

Watching this saga I think some wisdom from James would be in order:

This wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, soulish, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, without uncertainty or insincerity.



Athos
Athos
5 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

We got into the mess we are in by not deigning to dirty ourselves in fights, Ken.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That number is straight from The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment. You can look it up.

Lots of civilians died because of Nelson Mandela. His own foundation’s website admits it. You want exact numbers for exact time periods because you have to have artificial boundaries in order to “win” arguments? You’re on your own there, buddy.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago

Quote the actual claim, FP. Where in the indictment does it accuse Nelson Mandela specifically of 193 acts of terrorism, and what were those acts?

How many murders did the court charge Mandela with?

Normally, one would not take the word of a brutal Apartheid government at face value when they were trying to shut down Black leaders of the resistance movement. But in this case, I doubt even Apartheid rulers were able to lie as much as you have. Which is why you keep trying to falsely attribute a website about 1980s deaths while talking about Mandela’s 1962 arrest.

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I really would recommend you stop casting pearls before swine. I consider FP an inveterate troll and have written a userscript for my browser to collapse all FP’s posts so I don’t have to read them. If I could ban them from these threads, I would, as they almost never post in good faith.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

Perhaps. At least anyone walking in would have a hard time taking FP/Dave’s claims about Mandela seriously now.

But the question of Pastor Wilson still sits there. When Mandela died, Pastor Wilson called him “a thug and a bad man” and linked an article stating that Mandela should have just been executed by the Apartheid rulers in 1961 when they had the chance.

This is someone who celebrates Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, who whitewashes Nathan Bedford Forrest’s sins….but then says Mandela should have been executed for his revolutionary activities?

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Wilson’s defenders think it’s okay to call Nelson a “thug” for engaging in the same violent defense that he supports when the Revolutionaries or Confederates did it, but ignore him calling Obama a thug when Obama was merely a senator or referring to some Black urban clothing as “thug uniforms”.

And why was it okay for the White Apartheid government to massacre Black protestors, but Mandela is a “thug” if he fights back with limited attacks on infrastructure and military targets?

Why did he claim that White Apartheid was just the “wind”, but Nelson Mandela was a “whirlwind”?

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, why did I see burned out houses and shops in the smaller towns in South Africa? They weren’t government or military locations, they were where other black South Africans lived and worked. South Africans whose skin happened to be black and who happened to opposed the ANC’s terrorist ways. I didn’t see burned out or damaged government or military installations. Why doesn’t the internet tell you about the Zulu meeting in which the ANC murdered everyone in the building and burned the building? They opposed the terrorist methods used by the Mandelas and the ANC. I missed seeing you… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

The Sharpeville massacre is the starting point because the ANC had a 50-year record of nonviolence until that point, yet the Apartheid regime slaughtered 70 unarmed protestors. Mandela then advocated for targeted sabotage because the regime you’re carrying water for was killing them and nothing had changed.

Until then Mandela’s hands were clean. He was acquitted in his 1956 trial because he hadn’t supported violence.

And why are you talking about a 1988 experience when Mandela had been in prison 27 years at that point? Plus it’s been established that your personal anecdotes are not reliable.

Last edited 5 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.” Titus 2:6-8 Emphasis added Jonathan, you have a choice to continue to be the Christian without knowledge, understanding and wisdom or you can ask God to help you improve. Jonathan, the only reason that I attempt to interface with you is because you claim to be a Christian. Unfortunately, you are the zealot… Read more »

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, what you saw in SA in the eighties we’re not the doings of Mandela who was in prison from the early sixties to 1990. Jonathan’s argument about what Mandela did in the early sixties, or about ANC policy before 1975 is not negated by what you saw then. Everybody knows SA were on the way of becoming a second Lebanon at the end of the eighties, and it was very much the skill and wisdom of Mandela in reigning in the wrath of the blacks that made SA evade that fate. And even if things are not so good… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, I have never made an argument which required you to believe my personal experience. I’ve only cited it when blog trolls like yourself specifically claimed that I did not have personal experience on these issues – and when I did so I always provided proof to other posters to back my claims up. But my actual arguments are always made on public information.

Your claims about South Africa are both unreliable and irrelevant. Numerous people have pointed out to you that Mandela was imprisoned in 1962.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

And you wrote a ton of words claiming that you have greater understanding of complex situations than myself, yet somehow failed to provide a single bit of evidence for that fact.

Everyone can see that you haven’t been able to back up your claims about Mandela, similar to past discussions. And everyone has seen that you repeat internet urban legends as if they were fact and then claim you witnessed them yourself. That is not a situation from which you should speak arrogantly and claim you have greater understanding of public events.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Every time Jonathan responds to one of your comments he reveals just how inane you are. You have claimed to be an expert in multiple disciplines without ever producing a single credential. You are a sad man who appears to have lost his grip on reality. I pity you. I hope you will find a mental health professional to help you through your delusions.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

This comment was intended for Dave.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Every time Jonathan responds to one of your comments he reveals just how inane you are. You have claimed to be an expert in multiple disciplines without ever producing a single credential. You are a sad man who appears to have lost his grip on reality. I pity you. I hope you will find a mental health professional to help you through your delusions.

Will
Will
5 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

In an unintended way, Wilson’s, White Apartheid was just the “wind”, but Nelson Mandela was a “whirlwind”, is an acknowledgement that Mandela was God’s judgment on the evil of white apartheid.

FP is a categorical racist and a liar, and the truth is not in him. He doesn’t deserve the attention you have given him.

Jonathan
Jonathan
5 months ago
Reply to  Will

Oh, I don’t think it was unintended, Pastor Wilson clearly was saying that the White Apartheid government was paying for its sins.

The issue was that he considered White Apartheid to be a very minor sin. He said something to the effect that what Mandela represented was 1000 times worse than Apartheid, and described Mandela as a brutal thug who destroyed the country and should have been executed, sentiments he never expresses about Confederate or White Apartheid leaders.

Clayvessel
Clayvessel
5 months ago

I agree with Daniel, the retired video producer. I get somewhat peeved listening to the audio of the blog posts (usually in my car) because you are RUSHING through it. It doesn’t sound natural and little time is given to digest one thought before the next tumbles in. I’m glad a professional stepped up to call it out.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
5 months ago
Reply to  Clayvessel

Maybe Doug could do the recordings in his truck, like Darren Doane’s truckcast. It would probably be more listenable than a hyperspeed studio version.

Heather
Heather
5 months ago
Reply to  Clayvessel

On the flip side, my husband listens to podcasts and yt videos at 2x speed, which is annoying for my untrained ears… because he just doesnt have that much time in the day. This may be a generational thing as well. Or a regional thing. I’ve noticed that southerners speak so slowly compared to northern vloggers. It is sometimes a remarkable difference.

Heather
Heather
5 months ago
Reply to  Clayvessel

…and I listen to the what have you podcast at 1.4x speed because otherwise I won’t finish an episode while driving to pick my kids up. I think this is fairly normal tbh.