As Is Our Wont, We Publish Letters

Why are you still misreading the bill even after I already corrected it? Students are absolutely required to read and do basic math before they graduate, they have to pass the same math and english courses they have always had to pass. They just don’t have to take a specific, novel standardized test that wasn’t helping.

Even two of Oregon’s most conservative Republican House members voted for the bill. If you believe requiring a standardized test for graduation is so essential, then why hasn’t Idaho (or most of the rest of the nation) done it?

Idaho reaffirmed in 2017 that their state would have no exit exam requirements for graduation. It passed unanimously. So you’re making a giant deal about Oregon removing a requirement that Idaho has decided unanimously that it doesn’t want.

In fact, only 11 states in the entire country require an exit exam. Out of the 30 “red” states won by Trump in 2016, only 5 require an exit exam. Oregon is one of 19 states, mostly conservative, that used to have such a requirement but got rid of it.

https://www.idahoednews.org/news/senate-committee-nixes-isat-graduation-requirement/

Did you seriously just post an article from the Daily Mail and try to claim it was far-left? The Daily Mail is a notoriously right-wing British tabloid.

Once again you were completely dishonest.

And yes, the governor’s spokesperson said the move would help minorities. Democrats argue that every move they make helps minorities, do you expect them to say the move would hurt minorities?

Now answer why far-right reps like Greg Smith and Gary Leif voted for the bill. Or why over 80% of red states don’t have exit exam requirements.

Oh, so now the article is “non-partisan”, when minutes ago you were claiming it was far-left?

MSN is a news aggregator, they publish stuff from everyone. The article is from the Daily Mail, which everyone knows has right-wing editorial staff. Your argument solely relied on the headline, which is placed by the Daily Mail editors. That phrase never even appears in the body of the article.

You were caught in dishonesty by claiming a right-wing headline came from a “far-left” source, and instead of admitting that you had tried to mislead people, you doubled down on personal attacks.

You are again focusing on irrelevant information like the useless pedant that you are. The way it is called is NOT a problem, and we talk about things in non-specific ways all the time.

Did you know, the second amendment doesn’t protect the right to own guns, but to bear arms? Whoa!

Pedantry of this sort is idiotic. Focus on the point.

How is it “pedantic” to note that Oregon is NOT eliminating math and english requirements, but merely reverting to the exact same system as Idaho and most of the rest of the country?

How is it “pedantic” to note that the claim that Oregon had stopped trying to teach minorities math and english was a total falsehood?

You could have read Pastor Wilson’s entire piece and not once understood that Oregon’s requirements aren’t the slightest bit easier than Idaho’s.

Are they requirements? Yes. Do they have to do with math and english? Yes. Was Wilson’s point hyperbolic? Yes. Did he still make his point? Yes.

As someone already familiar with the recent change, his post was not confusing at all. If I wasn’t familiar, a quick google would have given me the details.

Don’t be this way. Stop trolling.

What Jonathan (the smart one) pointed out is just how, once again, Wilson either misread or, purposely misled what the article was about. That is the point you numbskull.

You Wilsonites are trip.

It’s odd that you come onto Wilson’s lawn here just to trample on the grass and spit on the chairs. At least Jonathan actually tries to sound reasonable, you are the basest of Trolls.

We also know that you are an idiotic leftist. I’m not sure about Jonathan, but I am sure about you.

You don’t have a clue about my politics or my faith. But I sure have clear understanding of yours.

And the reason Oregon scrapped the measure was because it was disliked across the state. It forced teachers to do a lot of extra work and deserving students were still not graduating. The same reason that the vast majority of states that had such requirements have already scrapped them.

Please, explain why Greg Smith and Gary Leif, very conservative Republicans, also voted to scrap it.

The line about minority students benefitting was the sort of throwaway line that left-leaners throw in to everything they do. Minority students will indeed benefit, but in Oregon even more White students will benefit.

It was disliked across the state, was it? Hmmm, I wonder what the worldview is of most people in the State of Oregon…..

Also who ever heard of Republican politicians being stupid…

Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Oregon? When someone says “across the state”, they’re speaking of a state for whom the large majority of counties lean conservative, including my own. I had hoped that the geographic adjective made that clear, but oh well.

Perhaps these very conservative Republican politicians are “stupid”. Great excuse. Now explain why they voted yes on the bill. And explain why Idaho was unanimous in rejecting testing standards for their own students. Explain why none of the 15 whitest states in the country force their students to pass an exit exam. It isn’t to protect minorities, so….?

I actually live in Oregon. I don’t pretend to understand Republican politicians. I think they should be advocating for eliminating the schools, so I don’t delve much into their policies.

I also don’t pretend to understand Idaho’s politicians. The entire system needs to go.

Buddy, no one here is being an apologist for the Republican party. Most of us lean more libertarian anyway in terms of government. Just because Republican politicians did something doesn’t mean we automatically agree with or support them.

From a Christian standpoint, Public schools shouldn’t exist at all. We are pointing out their stupidity.

I’m guessing this is where you point out to me how all the private and Christian schools have already been forcing their students to take this standardized test to graduate?

Oh wait….

I guess it’s one standard for the public school kids and a different, easier standard for the private/Christian schools?

Can I make something clear?

I’m not saying I support the requirement. I’m saying dropping the standards of a failing system even further is dumb. I’m not trying to legislate in opposition. At this point the public schools need to burn (metaphorically, not advocating violence)

Seeing as there shouldn’t be a public school IMO at all, no I don’t advocate double standards.

Again, in plain English, they are not dropping the standards.

Since only those who can afford private schools would be educated, you do indeed advocate for double standards.

That’s not a double standard… per definition. And it’s also not true, but I’m not going to argue that point right now.

I’d love to see you argue the point.

Double standard: A rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

You have the money to send your kids to private school, your neighbor doesn’t, so his kids go uneducated because there is no other option for them. Unless you, in Christian charity, pick up the bill for your neighbor’s kids.

Am I missing something?

Still crickets from your side of the fence. Come on, I’ll be gentle.

Do you think public schools should not exist because of how bad they’ve become (in more ways than one), or are you opposed to the idea in any case, on principal? I think the second would be a libertarian stance; I’m not a libertarian, but you have said you are, so, just asking. For my part, I’m not against public schools in principal, but I’ve come to disfavor public education because of what public education has come to be.

JohnM, I’m against them for both of those reasons, although of course I believe an explicitly Christian public education system is better than what we have now. But I do believe it falls outside the realm of the government, which also leads to lots of extra regulation, and increases taxes, which ought to be as low as possible.

Demo, of course Protestants support public education. The problem is that what the reformers wanted, the Puritans and others envisioned is not what we have today. The Bible calls us to knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Today’s schools do none of that.

Is it unchristian to call out the public schools for the mess that they are?

Is it unchristian to demand that the schools be defunded until they return to education instead of indoctrination?

Why should Christians not call out loudly against this travesty?

Demo, it’s funny to me to see you seemingly argue that the monstrosity that passes for public “education” today — with its top-heavy administration, constant experimentation on those unable to give consent, lazy teachers, and greedy teacher’s unions — is somehow Christian because of the faith of those who brought us public education in the first place. The founders of this country were Christian. Using your line of argumentation, those same Christian founders ratified the Constitution, the Tenth Amendment of which explicitly states, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the… Read more »

Demo,

Glad we agree on something. My concern is that you’re admonishing (“you should really reflect and study before calling it unChristian” and “you should be careful how you ground your critique”) rather than probing (e.g., “Why do you believe public schools shouldn’t exist from a Christian standpoint?”). In this case, probing would make for a far more fruitful conversation, given the subject matter. EDIT: Just saw that JohnM did this very thing. Credit where it’s due.

After all, how do you know people haven’t thought this issue through if you don’t ask?

“It is funny to me to see protestants say that public education is somehow against the faith or scripture.” Demo above

Demo, that’s what I was referring to.

Merry Christmas.

Though for the record, no one here so far has said public education is against the faith or scripture. Or if I have missed something, at least I have not said that.

That’s fine. Like I said, if I missed something. I didn’t have time just then to thoroughly review all the comments in the thread and had just responded to the last one before mine.

There is a reason why the Daily Mail is nicknamed the Daily Heil!

It is also called the Daily Wail, and reading some of the comments from its readers will quickly explain why.

You’re kidding about DM aren’t you?

Jane, If that’s what was happening you would be correct. Unfortunately, you are getting your information from Wilson’s flawed reading of the article or whatever site he pulled it from. The real question for me is, how did Wilson not understand what was actually happening? Laziness? Poor reading comprehension? Deliberate intention? This is far from the first time he’s been wrong about what he claims in his posts. Several within the last couple of weeks. As of yet, he has failed to issue any retractions. Not what you would expect from a pastor. Especially if he hopes to rehabilitate his… Read more »

Will, as of yet you have failed to actually believe in any Christian things. not what you would expect from someone who is an internet troll… oh wait it’s exactly what you would expect.

What are “Christian things”?

Is Wilson’s recent misinformation campaign, as one example, a “Christian thing”?

Is Wilson’s referring to women as cunts, as another example, a “Christian thing”?

Christian love isn’t exactly oozing out of your comments or Wilson’s history, and since Christian love is a real thing and since you and Wilson claim to be Christians, shouldn’t it be?

JTCO, as of yet you have failed to answer my question about “Christian things”.

How does that in any way excuse Wilson? If this was a random occurrence with him, that would be understandable. But it’s not. He’s done the same thing two or three times in the past two weeks. Not peep from him. He has a hit and miss record with truthfulness. The least he could do is make a retraction. I’m not holding my breath. Are you?

Your attraction to him has baffled me for years. Please don’t take that as a criticism, just an observation.

30 states have had exit exams; now only 11 do. But most were brief windows. Oregon had theirs from 2012-2019. Others had that brief 90s/00s period when testing was hot. If you go back to 70s/80s you’ll likely find few states with an exam.

Do you find it interesting that 0 of 15 highest-% White states require an exit exam, while 9 of 15 highest-% Black/Latino states require it? That’s a racial bias opposite from the one Wilson claimed. It’s the states with white underclasses who have been most unwilling to force their students into an exit exam.

You’re pointing out exceptions, which of course will exist. But the main trend is very strong. I’m curious as to why you assume it’s some cultural factor orthogonal to race. I’ve heard the same mechanism theorized across many other fields, from health care access to social uplift programs. Is it really a huge stretch to suggest that White majorities in states like Idaho and West Virginia are slightly more sympathetic to their poorer White residents than White majorities in Mississippi and Louisiana are to their poor Black/Brown residents? At the least, would it not make sense that there is less… Read more »

Jill, that might be an example of what certain elites say to each other when they’re trying to sound enlightened, but what do they actually do in reality? * No matter what they “say”, the truth is that the crack cocaine black people were using was regulated 100x more strictly than the powder cocaine white people were using. * No matter what they “say”, the truth is that black kids are several times more likely to be arrested for marijuana use than white kids, even though studies show that black and white kids use marijuana at the same rate. *… Read more »

I think it’s simply the feeling that one can “get away” with talking about their own group in a manner they wouldn’t talk about others. “I can say it cause I’m one of them”, even when they’re clearly not one of them. And of course also virtue signaling regarding what they perceive is acceptable in their peer group. Like I said though, it’s just talk. They aren’t going to move into a Black neighborhood and put their kids in a neighborhood school with poor black kids any more than they are going to move to a rural White neighborhood. They… Read more »

I agree there is a double-standard in discourse in some circles. They should do better. The sentiments they express could be used much the same by the “other side” to disparage their own perceived cultural enemies.

You see it on the other side too. To conflate a little, the elite white conservative who goes to Neshoba County dropping dog whistles and railing against welfare queens knows that he’s pandering to an anti-black audience, but it’s unlikely he cares much about poor white folk either.

Many sworn enemies are peas-in-the-pod who were just born into different tribes.

FWIW, grade inflation is highest in private schools and the suburbs, whereas in urban schools grade inflation is practically nonexistent. I’ll bet there are a LOT more 4.0s being given out in crappy all-white rural schools than there are in crappy urban brown/black schools. https://hechingerreport.org/newest-advantage-rich-america-higher-grades/ I think my education was fairly similar to yours – crappy rural school, personally had high test scores. But did or your teachers really need an SAT score to tell that your potential was different than some of the other kids with good grades? I knew I was going to go into science since I… Read more »

I am trying to focus on the educational system, and you’re pushing the conversation to the admissions system. I really feel that the educational system is 100x more important to society than the admissions system. In terms of ASVAB, I was speaking on using the subject-level tests as career discernment, not in terms of consolidating all those subjects into one general score for admissions purposes. I’m a fan of subject-level testing when it does a good job of showing the specific things that students do and don’t know, so they can work towards their strengths as well as improve their… Read more »

Other than virtue-signaling that you’re on Armin’s side, I’m at a total loss as to what you thought that comment had to do with your post or what you thought you were proving with it.

I went to a school where the average SAT was about 1500, average GPA was 3.9/4. I knew two white girls, twins, who got in despite both scoring around 1200. And one of my white suitemates freshman year had a 1330 SAT and 3.3 GPA. They all had alumni connections. So there’s some anecdotes for you.

Your state had an exit exam. The CAHSEE was only required from 2006 to 2015. It was originally suspended in 2015 and then permanently abolished in 2017.

I’m afraid I don’t exactly consider you a brother, your own conduct disqualified you long before I started reading this blog. Also, very convenient you always grab that to defend yourself while passing out the same sort of treatment to others constantly.

WHY do you keep assuming I support the way others do it? I am against ALL public schools! I haven’t looked into the stats, and I’m not going to right now.

That says a lot more about you than it does me or the Gospel. I can quite guarantee what the God of Jesus Christ considers us to each other. If you think you can ignore any Gospel instruction merely by devaluing the person you’re in relationship with, you are not reading the Gospels for their worth.

And I work as hard as possible to speak specifically to people’s conduct. Yes, sometimes I use strong words to tear down false arguments, but if I ever indulge in derisive name-calling just to insult someone then I have failed as a Christian.

That is some crazy logic! You don’t like jonathan so you call him a moron. And since you assume he isn’t a believer, you think you are somehow in the clear regarding your insult. Consider me nonplussed.

That’s par for the course. Welcome to the jungle!

It’s strange that when I make critiques I make them of specific comments and arguments, while when you make claims against me they are vague and unsourced.

If you have a problem when how I address someone, then say it then. I rarely use the term “racist” except when responding to specific behavior where it clearly applies, and I rarely use the word “idiot” directly to another individual at all. If at any time I have done either unfairly, you should call it out then, not just with this vague unsourced accusations.

Wether you are a Christian or not, you owe Jonathan an apology for the horrible things you have said and the accusation you have made about him. You have not shown Christian charity to him, just the opposite.

I don’t think I understand this “jungle” (as Will calls it). Cherrera apparently doesn’t like jonathan either and calls him a moron too while yelling at me for judging the comments section without all of the backstory. So if I knew the whole backstory, would I be required to agree that these personal attacks are somehow OK?

This place is like all jungles – dark, dangerous, and full of flora and fauna that can kill you. It is ruled by a self-proclaimed pastor who evidently traffics in obfuscation and depends upon his subjects (I’m not one) to do the same. Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch’intrate.

Dan, heads up on Cherrera. Take him with a grain of salt. He claims to be a Christian, but his commenting proves otherwise.

Right Armin, your constant degradation of Black folk for all the years you’ve been here isn’t the nasty part, it’s my snarky reply that really stepped over the line.

Your math claims were manufactured and false. I proved that with a direct citation and correct statistics. You can just admit you were wrong rather than trying to weasel out by playing the victim.

The data your link was based on was from almost 20 years ago. If the trajectory was for the gap to be closing, why not provide more recent data that shows it closed even more? The reason, of course, is because you can’t, because that theory has been debunked and the gap persists. But let’s just take the closing gap at face value. If blacks are actually at 90.5 (splitting the difference of the 4-7 point gain on whites), this would mean that about 24% of blacks would be at that 100-IQ level. Obviously an improvement but still pitiful, and… Read more »

I provided a 2006 study based on 2002 data because it’s the most recent study on the subject I know of. That study already proved that your claim was wrong. Your scenario would rely on a completely fabricated 21-point IQ gap, whereas the study I linked showed that even by 2002 the gap was already down to 9.5 points and shrinking. You’re going to claim “the theory has been debunked” simply because that was the most recent study I know of, when you can’t provide any more recent study to support you claim at all? And a 9.5 point IQ… Read more »

No, it was debunked because it has been shown that tests that most directly measure intelligence (eg. the “reverse digits” test) which are not based on cultural knowledge, are where the gap is highest. The reduced overall gap may suggest some kind of improved cultural assimilation of blacks (assuming those figures are even accurate), but does not reflect improved raw intelligence, or “g”. https://www.amren.com/news/2017/10/race-iq-evidence-arthur-jensen-philippe-rushton/ Regarding your old data, the link below is a lot more recent than yours and shows basically the 15-point gap I mentioned (Section 3), I’m basing my calculations on a 13.5 standard deviation for blacks, which… Read more »

1. Black Americans in 2000 averaged at 104 IQ when normed on the White population of 1950. In other words, the Armin of 1950, ranting about how Black people would never be able to accomplish what White people could accomplish in intelligence, might have lived long enough to see Black people average higher intelligence than the 1950 White people he thought were so superior. You keep doing everything you can to avoid that uncomfortable reality. 2. If you had thought it through you would have realized that the negative Flynn effect actually hurts your case, since your own journal shows… Read more »

The point is that the gap has always been there. Blacks of 2000 may have scored 104 in 1950, but whites would have scored 119. But even your beloved Flynn himself stated he believed this increase has been due more to a shift to more abstract thinking patterns of the population, not an actual increase in raw intelligence. https://www.amren.com/news/2012/10/why-iqs-rise/ Regarding the reverse Flynn Effect, it doesn’t matter that those countries are majority white. There is nothing indicating this reversal has affected only whites. If this were the case you’d be able to provide me more recent evidence that the gap… Read more »

Armin,

Since you are concerned about setting our black brothers and sisters up for failure, and purely for comparison, what’s your IQ?

No, the point is not “the gap has always been there”. The point is that the gap has closed over time, and what you claim to be fundamental ceilings on ability have clearly not been.

And yes, I think that shifts in abstract thinking patterns have as much to do with the Flynn effect change as anything. And they also have a lot to do with the existing gaps. See how that works?

The rest of your statement is just a reiteration of your position that completely ignores how much I tore it apart in the previous comment.

You gave me one study with 20-year-old data showing the gap has closed over time, and I showed you data from 17 years later indicating it did not close long term. If a change in abstract thinking led to both the Flynn Effect and the gap closing, if the Flynn Effect is reversing (i.e. the effect of the shift into abstract thinking is reversing), why would you expect the gap closing to not reverse as well? See how that works? See, if you can’t answer the questions I’ve posed here regarding the highly dubious hypothesis of a permanent IQ gap… Read more »

Your “data” was a complete joke, a self-published study by a group of White Supremacists in a fake journal. Do better.

Your 2nd paragraph suggests you misunderstand the situation, your argument there doesn’t even make sense.

Your 3rd paragraph entirely relies on your rejecting all of the most recent valid studies while propping up a single fake study. You should have used fewer words.

You apparently don’t have the ability to accept information and arguments that contradict your fantasy view of the world, resorting to rudeness and fallacies like “muh white supremacist publication.” These things just reveal your own intellectual insecurity. Luckily conformist non-entities like you don’t change the world.

This will be the last time I engage with you, “Jonathan,” as it simply feels like punching down, as anyone on this website who has dealt with me in the past will see.

I have no intellectual insecurity Armin. I demonstrate that by not having to base my entire online persona on degrading the intelligence of another entire race of people, as you have.

And yes, someone self-publishing their own paper in their own White Supremacist journal alongside other White Supremacists (several of whom have zero academic credentials) is not a serious study. You’ve provided 4 links to support yourself, 3 were White Supremacist journals and the 4th contradicted your own argument.

This is one of the guys who Armin is propping up as an authority:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emil_O._W._Kirkegaard

If there really is an inherent average difference in intelligence between blacks and whites, there are moral questions to consider. That was the point of my original question, which got lost in all the nonsense. It doesn’t matter if the gap is due to culture or genetics, or some combination. I don’t understand how wanting to honestly face that issue in a way that’s more nuanced than just pretending race doesn’t matter makes me resentful or whatever. No, I don’t particularly like blacks as a group, as I’ve made clear on here in the past, but I still think we… Read more »

West Virginia has the lowest average SAT scores in the entire nation. Idaho is 4th-lowest. And both are almost entirely white. What “moral questions” do we need to consider, other than simply working to improve schools and conditions in West Virginia and Idaho?

We already know the entire population is distributed across the spectrum with different levels of intelligence. We already know there are low-intelligence people of all races. What difference does it make what color they are?

Imagine what happens when it cuts both ways….

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/study-links-low-intelligence-with-right-wing-beliefs/article543361/

So if there were whites in an Asian country who were doing poorly, and the Asians said, “These people on average don’t seem to have the right stuff to make it here, and there doesn’t seem to be much we can do about” you would consider that evil racism and hatred? The answer is obvious. Even if they were wrong in their assumption that whites’ underperformance was unfixable, that wouldn’t make them evil. It would just make them mistaken about the facts. And that’s the core problem here: we can’t have an objective conversation about the facts because of white… Read more »

Timothy was also in that vein, in fact I don’t even remember the race stuff from him early on but it slowly took him over during his posting there. And then there were all the “old ones” too like 40 Acres, UnReconstructedRebel, mkt, ashv, and I’m sure others I’m forgetting.

It’s funny, those smart guys never challenged me on the race stuff. Does that tell you anything?

Jonathan resorted to personal insults right off the bat. That kind of behavior causes me to assume some level of insecurity. I could be wrong of course, it’s just my personal assessment. You’re committing a form of the genetic fallacy when you say “this data cannot be considered reliable because of the beliefs of those presenting it.” That sword can easily cut both ways, as I’m sure you’d agree. So please, enough of that. It’s not just about being highly intelligent, it’s also about strength of character. People of weak character don’t tend to push against the grain, and given… Read more »

No, the data cannot be considered reliable because it wasn’t peer reviewed by any established standard and made by heavily biased observers, some of whom don’t even have credentials in the field.

Although, to be honest, using 20-year-old data to prove a current trend does not suggest a particularly high intelligence.

That’s ridiculous, when looking at trends that take place over decades and centuries, having an 80-year data set that goes up to 2002 is perfectly legitimate. It takes years to do these studies and no one runs around updating every single study every 5 years.

Jill, God bless you for that comment. Maybe, just maybe Armin takes it to heart and begins a long, serious questioning of what he has believed about race. I hope he has the courage to look at himself in the mirror and admit that he has been wrong about his black, brown, and red brothers and sisters.

I don’t like to agree with him most of the time, but your comment was actually both very wrong and pretty racist.

How?

So you want to put people with 85 IQ’s through 13 years of learning things that will almost all be irrelevant to them once they “graduate”? Why not focus the less intelligent toward developing trade skills during their formative years?

The basics of most high school subjects (reading, math, history, science) are important for everyone, and only a minority of Black students are at 85 IQ or lower. I agree that trade skills should also be emphasized more in high school (again, for everyone), but high school academic subjects and learning to think through them are still important for all of society.

I showed that your “10%” was false.

And why would “plenty” suggest “at least half”? Wouldn’t half be the midpoint, not the minimum?

Besides, test scores are correlated to parent social status, so even if America gave Black kids the same educational opportunity, they would come from lower SES families and therefore expect to score somewhat lower on average. If the average Black kid had the same parent ed level, SES status, and school experience as the average White kid, you could talk about half being attainable as a midpoint, rather than the 30% or so it’s at now.

The moynihan report highlighted that point all the way back in 1965. Conservatives bring up the report often. However, I wonder if they actually read it, because the report notes that the primary factors behind the breakdown of the African-American family were: * intense social hostility towards strong Black men, up to and including organized violence and lynching of men who “didn’t know their place” * heavy urbanization caused by the flight from sharecropping * poor education * low wages for black heads of household * high unemployment for black men The report talks in quite fine-toothed detail as to… Read more »

This would be a very long side discussion, but the main points would be: 1. Racial groups match very poorly with genetic categories. We’ve already had this entire discussion with citations in another thread, but for example some ethnic groups who would be considered “African”, “European”, and “Asian” are closer related to each other than multiple different sub-Saharan African groups are to each other. In fact, by some measures the entire human population outside Africa has less genetic diversity than “Black” Africans alone. Native Americans, who are considered among the lowest-IQ, are extremely closely related to East Asians, who are… Read more »

Thanks. I didn’t have time to go into that.

It’s been happening at a pace of close to one post a week for the last two years straight.

I should have been more specific about his use of false information. He has used to to either make his case or to bolster it.

I do realize and appreciate how much time it takes for you to bring a corrected and balanced view to this blog. Lord knows it needs it.

I continually shape my worldview around the instructions of the God of Jesus Christ as expressed through his Bible and church. It is still molding me and nothing else remotely compares as an influence.

Justin’s main complaint was that I am posting too much, and you yourself are one of the main reasons why. Yours are among the 26 comments directed to me or about me today alone. I can’t respond to that? It’s not my fault the convo I started is the only one anyone wants to talk about.

What course of action would you recommend to Armin so the could stop being a racist?

What kind of a question is that? Don’t be racist means don’t be racist. Literally no further action necessary.

Oh, I see. I had no idea racism was simply switch you could turn on and off. It’s obvious that Armin doesn’t think he is a racist. How would help him to understand that his beliefs are racist? Wilson has the same problem, maybe you could help him, too?

It’s quite interesting that Armin posted a comment with 3 links, two of which were to openly White Supremacist material. Since the comment had three links it had to be approved by Wilson before it would have posted to the site, and it was indeed approved despite linking directly to White Supremacist material in a supportive manner.

I was responding to Jonathan’s earlier suggestion that if Armin kept posting racist material, that he should be banned. Armin has been posting racist material on here for a long, long time, and continues to be allowed not only to post it but also to link to White Supremacist material online, some of which has in the past specifically triggered violent anti-Black actions. So Pastor Wilson is certainly not on the same wavelength that Jonathan was suggesting. In terms of Pastor Wilson’s own views, I don’t think he is overtly or intentionally racist like Armin but he certainly is more… Read more »

I don’t think they all agree. But it’s amazing that posters like Dave, FP, Cherrera, etc speak so vehemently against me even when I post simple factual statements, but won’t say a word against Armin. Either they simply don’t care about truth, they just care about sides. Since Armin is on the “right”, he’s on their side, so they don’t want to speak against him. Or they simply don’t know what to say. They don’t understand the subject, they don’t know how to do the research, they can’t just respond with “dirty liberal!” or by quoting their favorite right-wing media… Read more »

Jonathan, will you please apologize for Black Lives Matter, Antifa, our Federal and state governments giving illegals free everything for breaking America’s laws, our current welfare system, and the SARS CoV-2 mandates?

I have never had any association with BLM or Antifa, nor have I publicly supported them.

Pastor Wilson was repeatedly closely associated with League of the South leaders and publicly defended them on this blog and in published books. He explicitly said they were not racist even as they were becoming more and more openly White Supremacist.

If Pastor Wilson apologizes for his support of the League of the South and all the false claims he made regarding their lack of racism, then I will apologize for all my Antifa associations. Deal?

Jonathan, you have never condemned anything about the welfare system, or illegals being paid to enter the US, or the government taking from those working to give to those who don’t work.

You have never condemned the racism of the BLM or Antifa or their anti-American basis. How about some equal time for condemning their racism?

How about a simple statement: I condemn BLM, Antifa, the current welfare system and allowing illegals to be given free stuff from hard working Americans.

What say you?

First off, your constant demand for pointless virtue signaling is tiring.

Second, I have always condemned racism whenever I have seen it no matter who said it, including by some people in BLM. And I have apologized for all my racist associations every time I have been aware of one.

Now, I already made my position clear in the previous comment. I’d be happy for a quid pro quo with Pastor Wilson. I’m fatigued by your constant attempt to distract from his errors for no gain.

Gentle Readers, Jonathan forgets that he supports giving illegals free stuff, the unbiblical welfare system and many other areas of America that are profoundly against scripture.

Hi Jill, I was pointing out how silly and incorrect Jonathan’s demands for Wilson to apologize for that which he can’t apologize. If you remember, a few weeks ago, I tried to get Jonathan to realize that we are guests here and that he may not demand anything from the host or others. He didn’t get the point at all. In reply to my thoughts, Jonathan used scripture that didn’t represent his position and then was unable to explain why he thought it did. That was especially true when I put his scripture in concert with the Bible stories they… Read more »

Let’s address these in order: 1. I have never asked Pastor Wilson to apologize for something that I won’t apologize for. Pastor Wilson made false statements in print, repeatedly, in open support for a white supremacist organization whose leaders he personally associated with. What you’ve accused me of has no relation to that whatsoever, I don’t have the slightest association with the groups you wish me to apologize for nor have I ever supported them. 2. You didn’t even understand the point I was making with the Scriptures I cited to you and stated I made claims that I never… Read more »

“I don’t want to have a doctrine of perseverance and election that is impervious to that.” Exactly. Or even worse, an anemic doctrine of once-saved-always-saved that can tend toward antinomianism. Professing Christian, how do you live? Does that create cognitive dissonance? If so, what do you keep and what goes? Allowing for spiritual growth and differing levels of maturity, I believe there are ways an actual Christian cannot live their life and be at peace, and then something has to give. Or maybe there can be just a drifting toward unbelief, out of indifference. I’m inclined to believe in the… Read more »

I believe there are ways an actual Christian cannot live their life and be at peace, and then something has to give. … Not so much a matter of losing salvation as casting it away.  I had a conversation with my wife about this subject just after reading Matt’s letter. She is in contact with mutual friends from fellowship connections decades ago. It is sad to see some of them have fallen away. One you wonder might only ever have really been nominal. Another was a radiant Christian but now openly atheist. In common with others I have watched fall… Read more »

“Saving up scraps of hard feelings for years, decades?” Hardly. So you’re ok with giving Wilson a pass on his sketchy, unrepentant past and present racism and misogamy? If you cared just a little bit, you could do a search right here on this blog and read it for yourself. He’s obviously not ashamed of it. But you strike me as someone who really doesn’t want to know. And that’s a shame. Your world wouldn’t come to an end if you acknowledged that Wilson is not the man you think he is or he claims to be. FYI – you’ve… Read more »

Sorry, my fat fingers. That should have been misogynistic. I’m pretty sure he’s all for marriage. Even for pedophiles.

I don’t think the most notable thing about the name Throckmorton is that it’s a white name either. Pastor Wilson is the one who chose to focus on that aspect, not me.

And in terms of “hating one’s neighbor”, I have never, ever advocated for violence against anyone.

Whereas Pastor Wilson suggested that the Apache “deserved everything they got and then some.” Which is a remarkable claim considering that Pastor Wilson doesn’t think the White Confederates deserved what they got, and considering what the European colonists were already doing to Native Americans long before the Apache got involved.

I am asking for consistency, not for basing our support on our tribe alone.

Jilly, if you’re willing to open your mind to that, I’m interested to know what you think of the manner in which Pastor Wilson weaponizes the word “thug”. It’s not just that he called Nelson Mandela a thug, not just that he repeatedly called Barack Obama a thug, it’s how he generally uses it that really bothers me. Clinton, Bush, Clinton, Trump, Biden: So far as I can tell, Pastor Wilson has never once called any of them thugs. Obama: Pastor Wilson has called him a thug on at least half-a-dozen occasions, dating back to even before he ever became… Read more »

I guess if you’ve usually seen men’s bathrooms on the left of women’s bathrooms then you might be naturally inclined to build the men’s bathroom on the left and not the right when given the opportunity, even if there’s no reason for it.

Similarly, if you’ve usually seen Black men get labeled as thugs then you might be naturally inclined to label them so yourself, even if there’s no reason for it.

We do tend to subconsciously adopt the patterns we observe. Which is why, when the patterns are bad ones, we should make an effort to stop.

A search on Google suggests that no one has ever called Obama a “Hawaii thug”, even though Hawaii is where he actually grew up (raised half the time by his white grandparents, in fact, which present company would have trouble feeling threatened by). Literally zero results outside of spam sites just stringing random words together. But “Hawaii thug” doesn’t institute the same fear of a black man that “Chicago thug” or “Kenya” or “Black Marxist Ghoul” do.

Would you take a reference to a methhead as a slur against whites as a race, seeing as the stereotypical meth user in pop culture appears to be white? I think ‘straight outta compton’ is a reference to gang banger culture. As in, we can at least be reassured that the Throckmorton is not a violent criminal. I think it is really racist to conflate gangster culture with black culture in general, Jill. If someone criticises trailer trash culture, do you feel personal affront? Why should that same thing not apply to American blacks? Is a critical word about gangsters… Read more »

How would knowing someone’s last name show you that they’re not a criminal, unless you already assumed that people with white establishment names aren’t criminals?

“His name is Throckmorton, therefore he must not be a violent criminal” is a wild claim.

And it wasn’t a “critical word about gangsters”. If your interpretation is correct, then you’re saying we can immediately assume someone isn’t a gangster if we know they have that “good white” ethnic background.

And why the heck are we even talking about violent crime in this article?

At least some set of every group will attempt to appropriate slurs used against them in order to gain some feeling of control. There are white country folk who proudly declare themselves “rednecks”, and slurs like “greaser” and “paddy” eventually had groups adopt them as their own. Just one election ago, “Deplorable” gear sold like hotcakes.

But, of course, some subsets’ attempts to gain power through taking over a word rarely does much to diminish the venomous use of the words when used by out-group persons in order to degrade.

I was talking about gangbangers from straight outta compton; if I recall correctly that was about the bloods and the crips, neither of which are white gangs. I was trying to not be repetitive. Should have said, “As in, we can at least be reassured that the Throckmorton is not a gangbanger.” I’ve never seen this Throckmorton, but it is a nerd name. It is the kind of name you associate with a lawyer or accountant.

Imagine if someone said, “Throckmorton sounds like a nerd name, at least we can be assured he’s not one of those racist Idaho rednecks”. Then clarified, “Oh no, I’m clearly not saying that all Idahoans are racists, but Idaho has been associated with a lot of racists and that’s all I’m referring to.”

How would that “joke” be taken around here?

And to be clear again, the post had literally nothing to do with gangbanging or anything like that, and the only reason “Throckmorton” is considered not to sound like a Compton name is because it doesn’t sound Black.

If a non-white person referred to Joe Manchin as a “West Virginia methhead” and referred to Doug Wilson as an “redneck methhead” and had a tendency to talk about the negative traits of “white methheads”, then wouldn’t you think they either had an issue with folk of that race or were trying to trigger them?

And even if you knew their heart and were really convinced that wasn’t their intension, wouldn’t you counsel them to stop doing it?

Can you support this claim?

Doug has been pretty clear that he sees CRT as a phenomenon originating with affluent whites. Which, of course it is, historically.

Wikipedia states that critical race theory was first proposed by Derrick Bell, who is quite clearly black, and the coining and popularization of the term appears to have started at a workshop hosted by Kimberlé Crenshaw, Neil Gotanda, and Stephanie Phillips, who appear to be two black folk and an asian-american.

It’s interesting to just assume that white people did it though.

I’ve spent enough years in enough Black communities that I can say with confidence that the large majority of Black folk believe things about America and American history that would be called “Critical Race Theory” by people like Wilson.

A quick reference – polls suggest that over 80% of Black folk say there is systematic discrimination in America and over 90% say that White privilege exists. Yet if I was a Sunday School teacher in Christ Church and I started teaching that White Privilege was real, would I not be accused immediately of teaching CRT?

Yes, as I sort of implied, you have to separate “hard CRT” – which itself would be difficult, considering how general and diverse CRT is – as opposed to “things propagandists call CRT”, which is so broad as to cover the views of almost every black person in the country.

“Critical Race Theory” is used so broadly by the right and “Critical Theory” so basic that conflating anyone who speaks out on racial power dynamics with some mid-20th century European philosophers is a stretch. Black folk who care about history and society would still be reading DuBois, Woodson, Baldwin, etc. and saying the exact same things they say now about race and power even if the entire line of philosophers from Horkheimer to Foucault never existed.

Dismissing the real concerns of Black folk as if they’re just parroting White ideas is really demeaning.

Big jump you just made right there.

I think it’s demeaning to take a field of study clearly founded by black folk and assume it was started by “affluent whites”. There’s no need to do that, it adds nothing to the conversation. But you jump from there to “racial pride”?

And I care little so far as you what you think of my soul, I have hundreds of people who care much about my soul who know more about it than you. I do wonder if you have the same concerns for Pastor Wilson, and if not, why not?

Interestingly, one of the articles Pastor Wilson posted in support of his worries against Grove City College (one that actually discusses race and seems to be 100% about people not named Warren Throckmorton) specifically attacks the Grove City president for conflating “Critical Race Theory” with “Critical Theory” and says that his denials that Grove City have ever supported Critical Theory are irrelevant, cause it’s the “race” part that’s the real issue. The author claims that denying you’ve ever taught any Critical Theory is not good enough, because those who are concerned about Critical Race Theory are more worried about “Critical… Read more »

I think you are naïve regarding Wilson’s intentions. He’s not playing around. His history says otherwise. He is a cult leader in sheep’s clothing. Don’t take my word for it look it up for yourself. There’s plenty out there to confirm it.

That’s a lot of words within quotes that have no relation to anything I said.

Why would you agree with Jill’s stance (“playing the role of a provocateur who makes fun of our orthodoxies about race sometimes leads him to make comments that sound racist”) and disagree with mine (“Pastor Wilson, yet again not even trying to be subtle with the dog whistles”) when they’re almost the same?

A “dog whistle” is making an allusion to a topic without saying it. Both Jill and I feel like Pastor Wilson was doing that with race here, do you disagree?

I think the joke is about subverted expectations. Throckmorton sounds like he should be a boring conservative, WASPy kind of guy, not a racial revolutionary like Ibram Kendi or Farrakah. That such a fellow is actually woke makes the problem seem worse; i.e. it is not at all reassuring. Like if Texas elected a communist governor.

Nonsensical because the entire post was about LGBTQ issues, not race. Why would you even be thinking about “racial revolutionaries” or a publicly anti-LGBTQ figure like Farrakhan in the midst of an LGBTQ debate? How would a pro-LGBTQ guy not being Black somehow subvert expectations?

Gentle Readers, Jonathan doesn’t know that Nelson and Winnie Mandela were terrorist thugs forcing their way on South Africans of all colors and status. This peace loving couple was on the international terrorist list for decades for their violent actions. Necklacing was a favorite tactic. That’s where the ANC terrorists would put tires over a person, throw in some gas and burn them to death. Another favorite was killing all the leaders of opposition parties. Oh and don’t forget the bombings. Yes, Mandelas were terrorist thugs, no matter what the internet says about them today. Yes, it’s A-OK to call… Read more »

Demo, What you neglected to mention is that Nelson Mandela was in prison for a reason — in fact, 156 of them, as you’ll see below. Among Mr. Mandela’s more notable, ahem, accomplishments: Mr. Mandela co-founded the uMkhonto we Sizwe (MK, or ‘Spear of the Nation’), the guerrilla arm of the African National Congress, which carried out terror attacks at shopping centers, movie theaters, and other civilian targets. Mr. Mandela pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism, hence his imprisonment. Mr. Mandela personally signed off on numerous terrorist acts while in prison. Among them: -Church Street West,… Read more »

Nelson Mandela won his first trial in a South African court, because he hadn’t committed any violence or supported any violent revolution.

Then came the Sharpeville massacre, where government forces shot 250 nonviolent protestors, killing 79. AFTER that happened, Mandela gave up on nonviolent protest and began committing small-scale acts of sabotage and bombings, mostly against infrastructure and with minimal civilian casualties. That is what he was imprisoned for.

Why is it okay for Confederates and Revolutionaries to fight back violently, but Mandela is a “thug” if he does so?

“Then came the Sharpeville massacre…” And on what planet does that justify Mandela’s subsequent acts of public violence and terrorism? Remember, he pled guilty to 156 acts of public violence and terrorism. Terrorism is not “fighting back”, Jonathan. Because it involves innocents. Look at the list again: -Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985 -Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986 -Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 -Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988 These are places where lots of people gather, Jonathan. Stop trying to whitewash Mandela. He was an unrepentant Communist, an adherent to a sick,… Read more »

You get your material from inaccurate extremist sites.

* Mandela did not plead guilty. This is proof you copy-pasted this from an erroneous internet rant and know nothing of the topic.

* Your list was acts committed when Mandela was in prison. The claim that Mandela planned them comes from the same rants you copied the first false claim from.

I don’t think violence justifies violence. I don’t support violence or war. But Pastor Wilson does. The acts Mandela was actually responsible for were small-scale sabotage and bombings of infrastructure and military targets.

Peter Hammond, who met with Mandela in person, claimed that Mandela plead guilty. At any rate, the court found Mandela, along with his accomplices, guilty — and at the end of the day, this is what matters. Why you think splitting hairs here helps your case is anyone’s guess.

As for your second bullet point, check the transcript. I mentioned the acts took place while Mandela was in prison. And no, I didn’t claim that Mandela planned them, but that he signed off on them. Still approval. Still evil. Still factual. So what’s your point? That you can’t read?

Why are you doubling-down on these ridiculous 3rd-person prison whispers rather than the actual public documents? Mandela’s trial is a matter of public record.

MAGISTRATE: [to Mandela] Your application is dismissed. Will you now plead to your charges?

MANDELA: I plead NOT GUILTY to both charges, to all the charges.

And you continue to offer zero evidence for your other false claims.