The Content Cluster Muster (06.15.17)


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Bob Dylan’s Nobel Speech

The great maestro of the 20th century, in his own words.


Peter Hitchens Reading of Orwell’s 1984


Google’s Hate Speech


The Boniface Option

Andrew Isker (an alumni of our Greyfriars Hall ministerial program) wrote a fantastic piece for Kuyperian Commentary on how Christians should navigate these hard times in which we live:

CLICK HERE TO READ


Kind of Interesting



And of Course, Open Road

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Bro. Steve
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Bro. Steve

Informal poll at the office among over 55 straight white males. None of us can understand why Bob Dylan was popular. Can he sing? (Zero votes in the affirmative) Can he write great lyrics? (Even more zero votes in the affirmative) Is he considered a pretty man? (Several votes in the vehement negative)

How, then, is this phenomenon to be explained?

MeMe
Guest

LOL! I have actually prayed to be forgiven for disliking Bob Dylan so much. To this day I am clueless as to what the attraction is.

Nathan Smith
Member

His “Talkin’ World War 3 Blues” is especially incisive. Maybe I like it because when he tells the doctor about his bad dream to see what the doctor has to say, the doctor says “it was a bad dream.” That sounds like what I would say.

jonmnoel
Member

55 of you , and none of you can appreciate the gifts of Dylan? He certainly was a great songwriter.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have loved him devotedly since I was a 14-year-old babysitter in 1964, working for a couple of hold-over beatnik university professors who decided to educate me. They introduced me to Lady Chatterley’s Lover, the works of Sartre and Camus, Lenny Bruce, Sacco and Vanzetti, George Metesky the Mad Bomber, and a reel-to-reel tape containing Bob Dylan’s second album. I listened to “Masters of War” and realized that I had found my true calling as a relentless little rebel. I made my long-suffering parents buy me a guitar, and I stayed holed up in my room until I had learned… Read more »

Nat
Guest
Nat

As a 68 year old SWM who still enjoys Dylan all I can say is that he is very like some of the most beautiful women I have ever known. If you break them down the nose is too big, mouth too large , smile crooked, etc. but put the whole package together and WOW! I can listen to Mr. Zimmerman all day long.-can’t sing, songs don’t make sense, and he’s certainly no Justin Beiber or Madonna .

John
Member

Exactly. The answer to his popularity is blowin’ in the wind. You either get him or you don’t.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

All in all can only fall with a crushing but meaningless blow–
No sound ever comes from the Gates of Eden.

Tom
Guest
Tom

Man’s egos inflated. His laws are outdated. They don’t apply no more. You can’t rely no more to be standin around waitin.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Einstein, disguised as Robin Hood with his memories in a trunk
Passed this way an hour ago with his friend, a jealous monk
Now he looked so immaculately frightful as he bummed a cigarette
And he went off sniffing drainpipes and reciting the alphabet
You would not think to look at him, but he was famous long ago
For playing the electric violin on Desolation Row

Tom
Guest
Tom

Ring them bells Saint Peter where the four winds blow
Ring them bells with an iron hand
So the people will know
Oh it’s rush hour now
On the wheel and the plow
And the sun is going down upon the sacred cow

stegokitty
Member
stegokitty

Just out of curiosity, Bro. Steve, did you listen to the message in the video?

John
Member

To paraphrase Wesley Snipes in White Men Can’t Jump, “You just can’t hear Jimmy.”

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

What if you used your tools to build a fidget spinner?

MeMe
Guest

I just want to point out that men who try to use their power tools as fidget spinners tend to have coffee cups in the ER with their names on them.

Barnie
Guest
Barnie

The Inquisitor said, “What right do you have to the glories of Western Civilization, to dwell among cathedrals while some live in mud huts?” And Wilson said, “No right. There is no race but the human race and the Western world was an accident of history. Let mud huts spring up like mushrooms and our cathedrals lie in ruins.” And the Inquisitor said, “What right do you have to a stable and solidary community when some live in violence and chaos?” Russell Moore said, “No right. Mayberry was built with blood. I love no man more than another. Let my… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I wonder if we should be pursuing the good of the Kingdom of Western Civilization or the Kingdom of God?

MeMe
Guest

Western civilization, for all her flaws and failures, is man’s attempt to reflect the Kingdom of God. We should stop acting as if these things are separate, compartmentalized, because they are not. While we may be epic fails at creating something that even compares to God’s kingdom, we are still called to “make the invisible kingdom visible in our midst.”

If someone had not built mansions on earth, I would have idea what mansions in heaven even looked like.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Western Civilization has held more in resemblance to the Tower of Babel than the Kingdom of God for quite some time now. Now, that doesn’t mean that I don’t see the ways in which the Gospel has had a profoundly good impact on Western Civilization. But an idol doesn’t receive my worship because the person who crafted it decided to include some of Jesus’s features into its face. The objective is the pursuit of the Kingdom of God inside Western Civilization, outside Western Civilization, wherever. At every point where the objective became more about Western Civilization on its own merits… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Also: if you get your idea of the heavenly dwelling places in your father’s house (Greek: monai) will look like by studying worldly mansions, then you are wildly deceived.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I sincerely hope it doesn’t look like the Trump penthouse or the stage set for the Trinity Broadcasting shows. There is something incredibly depressing about excessive gold plate.

John
Member

You mean you have something against velvet?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I would like to see how my cats would react to velvet furniture. It would not be pretty.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

If “mansions” is interpreted as meaning Gothic cathedrals and Bach’s music, I agree with you.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Being made in the image of God means being creative. If you are Western and you create something wonderful, it will become part of the glory of Western civilization. That shouldn’t be your goal, but it is the result. The poor will always be with us. Would anyone have seriously preferred that Mozart feed the poor rather than write his Requiem, or that Wordsworth tend to the sick rather than write The Immortality Ode? If everyone on the planet was healthy and well fed, life would still be intolerable to most of us without art, music, and literature.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Holy Mother of Jesus! I am not sure I have ever agreed more with a Papist than now.

Upvote!

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

If everyone were healthy and well fed, there would be far more art, music, and literature. Unfortunately, as I proved with direct quotes on an earlier post, those with the “keys to the Kingdom” in Western Civilization have worked to ensure that the vast majority of resources stay with a small minority of people, such that the vast majority of the world’s creative potential is never known. It actually makes me a little sick to hear the suggestion, “would anyone have seriously preferred that Mozart tend to he poor rather than write his Requiem”, when the likely reality is that… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I don’t think I argued that. If Mozart had stepped over a man who fainted from hunger, I would expect him to help him if he could. But I don’t think Mozart’s primary calling was to help the poor. If God makes you a towering genius in the music department, I think God wants you to make music. All of us are called to charity. But not everyone is called to fight global poverty and injustice as a full time mission. And some people are called to give joy to the rest of us through great art. I don’t see… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I hadn’t argued that people should abandon art and music and literature and all else to help the poor. I have NEVER said or implied anything like that. I believe that everyone’s primary calling is to love the people around them, primarily those in need (see 1 John 3:16-18). If everyone were to be doing that, then the number of “professionals” who needed to do it would be comparatively minor.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Jonathan, sometimes I am not sure what exactly you are arguing. Sometimes it sounds as if you are saying that every Christian must divest himself of all traces of wealth and go live like Henry David Thoreau on Walden Pond. I took your comments earlier as meaning that it was sickening that anyone would rather have Mozart’s Requiem than to have had him spend his life helping the poor. So be patient when I misunderstand you!

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Jilly, you brought up Mozart’s Requiem first. I have absolutely no issues with the Requiem, I have issues for it to be used as a justification/excuse for our shoddy treatment of the poor or as a justification for elevating the Kingdom of Western Civilization above the Kingdom of God. Remember, this comment started when Barnabas used the preservation of “Western Civilization” as an argument in itself to defend his racist nationalism. I tend to trust God, and believe that his rules for how to live will result in a better society than self-protective nationalism. There is absolutely no point at… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: The main reason I am misunderstood here is because I speak a message that most commenters here have never been exposed to at all, and it’s a threatening message. Never been exposed to? Threatening? Jonathan flatters himself. I don’t think I’ve misunderstood him at all. I just disagree with him, and find his accusations unpersuasive. Jonathan wrote: If the actual words I say are wrong, attack them. Attack? Can we just correct Jonathan without being accused of attack? I corrected Jonathan’s error regarding his claim that wealth in Proverbs refers only to agricultural production. I don’t think he… Read more »

John
Member

Then shut up, sell your computers and give the money to the poor. That will make you feel good and we won’t have to be lectured by you anymore.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

But, on reflection, I have to disagree with your first sentence. Being healthy and well fed is probably a hindrance to producing great art. So is a state of calm, placid happiness. Prozac makes me nicer but it certainly takes away the edge that makes for good prose.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“But, on reflection, I have to disagree with your first sentence. Being healthy and well fed is probably a hindrance to producing great art. So is a state of calm, placid happiness. Prozac makes me nicer but it certainly takes away the edge that makes for good prose.” I agree with your second two sentences but don’t think hey relate to the first two. I’m struggling to think of a famous artist who was actually malnourished. While you are right that the lives of wealthy complacency which modern society is teaching us to strive for are counterproductive to great endeavors… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

You are quoting Scripture to mean the exact opposite of what was intended. Jesus is quoting the line from Deuteronomy, “Since there will never cease to be some in need on the earth, I therefore command you, “Open your hand to the poor and needy neighbor in your land.”” He is saying this MOMENTARY gift before my death is good, and you will be CONTINUOUSLY responsible for caring for the poor. You’re doing almost the exact opposite – using the verse to somehow dismiss the continuous responsibility. If the verse really means what you’re trying to make it mean, how… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have no doubt that we have a continuous duty to help the poor. Your interpretation, however, is not what I have been taught–which is not to say that yours is wrong. I have always been taught that our Lord spoke those words to Judas when the latter reproached Mary Magdalene for what he considered frivolous spending which deprived the poor. Our Lord is saying that there will always be poor people, but right now, in this moment, Mary is justified in thinking of Him rather than of the poor. In a broader sense, despite our ongoing duty to the… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Judas was not at all concerned with depriving the poor, John says specifically, “He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.” And Jesus is referencing Deuteronomy: “There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.” I agree with the general thought, that we are NOT to be deprived of beautiful gestures of giving towards others, regardless… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have seen it used in several ways. I think it is first of all a statement of absolute fact. There will always be poor people. Even if everyone was given a guaranteed allowance, there will always be people who can’t manage their money and who spend the rent on foolish things. If we respect people’s freedom to manage their own lives, we have to accept that some of them will sometimes be poor no matter what. Most people are poor, not because they manage their money badly, but because they can’t make enough to keep up with the cost… Read more »

John
Member

Jilly, I think you make some valid points but many people, including several of my relatives, lack the ability to save a single dollar, even if you gave them a thousand dollars. My nephew is just plain lazy so he will always be poor. His mother spends her money on foolish things and has had to take out multiple mortgages. She will always be poor. I have several friends who entered retirement, spent all their money on boats, country club memberships etc and now they are poor. They will be poor the remainder of their lives. I recently received a… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“My nephew is just plain lazy so he will always be poor.”

“His mother spends her money on foolish things and has had to take out multiple mortgages. She will always be poor. ”

“I have several friends who entered retirement, spent all their money on boats, country club memberships etc and now they are poor. They will be poor the remainder of their lives.”

I’m….struck by your liberal use of the word “poor”. ;)

John
Member

Well they do have a tv (no cable)but they don’t have a laptop or cell phones. :) No car so they walk. They are in debt at the level where they couldn’t be debt free if they had 9 lives. But then again they just ask me for money and tend not to lecture me.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

“Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in Heaven.”

I learned this in grade school.

Joey Wells
Guest
Joey Wells

Who is (was) the king of the kingdom of Western Civilization?

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“We who are disciples of Christ claim that our purpose on earth is to lay up treasures in heaven. But our actions often belie our words. Many Christians build for themselves fine houses, lay out splendid gardens, construct bathhouses, and buy fields. It is small wonder, then, that many pagans refuse to believe what we say. “If their eyes are set on mansions in heaven,” they ask, “why are they building mansions on earth? If they put their words into practice, they would give away their riches and live in simple huts.” So these pagans conclude that we do not… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan, quoting Chrysostom, wrote:

If they put their words into practice, they would give away their riches and live in simple huts.”

It’s ironic that Jonathan quotes Chrysostom from the conveniences of a home with electricity, indoor plumbing, and a computer with broadband internet service. Not really one for simple huts, I guess.

Unfortunately, some of the church fathers missed the point, and tried to absolutize poverty, as if poverty were pious for its own sake, or that God cannot give earthly wealth as a sign of blessing.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Katecho, I have regularly corrected you on your false assumptions that my home has those things, but you still ignore it and repeat the claims. That makes you a liar. Of course, it would be a stupid, meaningless attack even if it were true, but I happen to have chosen for the last five years to live in the rare situation where it is not. It is quite dangerous territory to delve into attacks on a person’s personal life instead of actually addressing the arguments made. First, because my personal life does not define whether the Gospel is true or… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: Katecho, I have regularly corrected you on your false assumptions that my home has those things, but you still ignore it and repeat the claims. That makes you a liar. Of course, it would be a stupid, meaningless attack even if it were true, but I happen to have chosen for the last five years to live in the rare situation where it is not. Actually, Jonathan didn’t correct me on those things. He merely implied that his home didn’t have any of those things, but never said so directly. I pointed that out at the time. We… Read more »

Nathan Smith
Member

Can’t say I agree, though appreciate the style. McCarthyesque (Cormac) in both respects.

Katecho
Member

Barnie appears to enjoy creative fiction writing, and false attribution. For example, Wilson defends wealth as a blessing, isn’t bullied by egalitarian pressure tactics, rebukes racial malice in its distinct white and black forms, and considers the West to be a historical providence rather than an accident.

Barnie
Guest
Barnie

ASHV might give me a hard time for using the term “rights” but that was the Inquistor’s word. Those were, in actuality, duties.

kyriosity
Member

This on the Dylan speech was amusing.

And the sad thing about cicadas isn’t that they sleep for 17 years but that they ever wake up. I still haven’t recovered from the summer of ’87.

Nathan Smith
Member

I heard the Dylan speech was worth listening to because of his notable pronunciation of Quixote. I haven’t listened yet.

I appreciate Dylan. As opposed to most lyricists of the time I feel like he was trying to pick at something objective, something outside himself. Though not always. Sometimes I think he was just high.

Nobel prize worthy? Well they have one to Al Gore and over to Barack Obama. So…

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I love Dylan, and I think some of his songs like “Desolation Row” and “Percy’s Song” are brilliant. Just the opening notes of “Like a Rolling Stone” make me feel young and carefree. All the same, I wouldn’t have give him a Nobel for literature. But if they had a category for “Voice of a Generation Once Young and Now Wondering What Happened to It,” I would give him the Nobel for that. Although, when my ex-husband taped the entire works of Bob Dylan for me to listen to while giving birth to the Snowflake, I said “Turn that off… Read more »

John
Member

Jilly, take no umbrage at those who fail to see the brilliance of Bobby D. I howled in laughter at your comment regarding “Like a Rolling Stone.” Anytime you want just let me know and I will cruise to LA and we will turn back the clock multiple decades and blast that beloved song until the neighbors call LAs Finest. Then will throw in “Forever Young” for good measure.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

After “Forever Young,” we will switch over to CSNY for “Wasted on the Way.” That is when I really sit back and wonder what exactly I have done with my life! I will dust off the 12-string to be ready.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

To which I would answer with St. Francis de Sales: “There is a wide difference between having poison and being poisoned. All apothecaries have poisons ready for special uses, but they are not consequently poisoned, because the poison is only in their shop, not in themselves; and so you may possess riches without being poisoned by them, so long as they are in your house or purse only, and not in your heart. It is the Christian’s privilege to be rich in material things, and poor in attachment to them, thereby having the use of riches in this world and… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I know little about St. Francis de Sales except that he was a nobleman born into wealth and privilege over a thousand years after the church had given up its early focus on the poor, almost at the time when financial impropriety among the Catholic Church was at its peak. Why do you consider his words to be authoritative on this issue, more so than St. Basil the Great or St. John Chrysostom, or more pertinently, the John who wrote 1 John 3:16-18? I think his argument applies about as easily to pictures of naked women as it does to… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have great respect for St. Francis de Sales. His greatest work, The Introduction to the Devout Life, is intended to teach people to find holiness in all walks of life, for it is God who has determined each man’s station. What I find wonderful about him is that he nudges you along the path with gentleness and persuasion. This is his advice to the rich: “And this, my child, is what your heart should be–open only to heaven, impenetrable to riches and earthly treasures. If you have them, keep your heart from attaching itself to them; let it maintain… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“Most of us are called to live in the world, Jonathan. We have to find that balance between the duty of self-support (and the support of our dependents) and the duty of helping the poor. ” Whenever I see things like “we have to live in the world’ or “we have to find that balance” in response to Scripture, I get wary. That’s the balance I’ve been discussing all along. I believe it is a balance described by, for example, John in 1 John 3:16-18, as well as St. John Chrysostom. It is a balance found in something closer to… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“I could forego the dental implants and walk around without any teeth, but who would that actually help?”

No one, so why mention it? I have never, ever suggested that you walk around without teeth or anything like that. I have never, ever suggested making meaningless or empty gestures.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

At $4000 a tooth, it wouldn’t be an empty gesture. The question is: how far do you think people must go in denying themselves western luxuries (as dental implants are) in order to do their Christian duty to the poor? I seem to have a hard time pinning you down to specifics. Do you see your own chosen path as normative for all Christians? When you seem to be criticizing the rich for their lack of generosity, are you using the term rich loosely? Would your preference be that all of us forego air conditioning and seasons tickets to the… Read more »

John
Member

Many people have tried to make Jonathan realize that he is rich. Wealth is a relative term. He has a laptop, electricity, indoor plumbing, turns the faucet and clean water appears and has a job that pays him enough to eat and maintain the plumbing, electricity etc. Yet he insists he is poor. No, poor is the woman in India who has to wash her clothes in the river, uses an outdoor restroom, watches her children die from malaria and no lights come on when she flips a switch. The fact is that Americans are rich. You, me and even… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

John, most of what you’re saying about my life is a complete lie. Other than the laptop which I have, you know nothing about my life or where I live, and the lies that Katecho has been spreading for years appear to be festering in others too. I have never once said that I am not rich. Not once. I have never once insisted that I was poor. Not once. I have a deep understanding of how materially privileged my birth was compared to most of the world, and I am NOT a liar. That is why I make the… Read more »

John
Member

You live in Montana, you and your wife have laptops, so as Katecho rightly pointed out. that usually requires electricity/broadband. You have a job and unless you walk to work you have a car. Those are all luxuries that most people in the world do not have. We are just tired of you lecturing everyone on the evils of money and we would like to see how you can lead and justify your lifestyle without giving it away to the poor. Perhaps, you will inspire us. And please don’t assume you know more than I do regarding the poor, whether… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I was thinking about that, but somehow I missed Montana. I pictured Jonathan as living in a huge city, but not New York, somewhere on the east coast. He could use free WiFi at the library, but then he couldn’t post at night. He could use it at a coffee shop or at a 24 hour urgent care clinic. I learned about these options when my internet was cut off for five days last week. I realized that I am addicted to the internet! On the other hand, I have cable TV again for the first time in five years.… Read more »

John
Member

He said he had voted for Gianforte and he has only been a candidate in Montana.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

No I did not say I voted for Gianforte.

I also didn’t say that my wife and I own “laptops”, plural. In fact, I made clear on multiple occasions that we only have one between us.

And there are many ways to access the internet without having electricity and broadband yourself.

Just like there are many ways to get to work without owning a car.

Again, abundantly ironic that you’ve chastised me for making a quite certainly accurate assumption about you, when you are assuming all these untrue things about me.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I live in Montana now? Huh? The reading comprehension on this site is something else. And in what country is walking to work the only alternative to owning a car? The things that ya’all make up about my life are getting wilder and wilder. And your indignation about me assuming something about your own personal life is incredibly ironic. If I had the slightest hint that giving you all the details of my life would enlighten anyone and bring them closer to Christ, I would do it. So far, the minor details I have given (the fact I own a… Read more »

John
Member

Jonathan, you have said that you are not rich. Others, including myself, find that hard to believe given what we perceive to be your material circumstances. So why don’t you just tell us? Do you have electricity.? Do you have indoor plumbing? Do you have a car? Do you have a job that allows you to make payments on such things as a mortgage , water bill, car? If you have children are you saving for college? You seem to believe scripture points you to give away your possessions to the poor. You wouldn’t be revealing where you live but… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“Jonathan, you have said that you are not rich. ” When have I said that? I’m fairly certain you’re making that up. “Others, including myself, find that hard to believe given what we perceive to be your material circumstances. ” Considering that nearly everything you “perceive” to be my material circumstances is made-up and false, I’m having trouble seeing what weight your perception has. “So why don’t you just tell us?” Because the details that I have already told have only led to further attacks on myself and my character. What incentive is there for me to actually share anything… Read more »

John
Member

Mr Frank, You choose to lecture other Christians on this site concerning their use of wealth. You ignore Biblical passages, as Katecho has pointed out, that contradict your worldview. It isn’t an attack on you, although you perceive it to be, but simply asking how you can view yourself as poor while in most areas of the world you would be considered rich. It is simply a case of individuals inquiring if you actually practice what you preach when from a practical aspect it is hard to understand why you do not consider yourself wealthy. No one is asking you… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

John, you have repeatedly lied about me, and every time I correct you you just move on as if nothing had happened. I offered to explain myself privately, and you ignored it. I gave an extremely detailed set of circumstances and asked you to explain how it would make any difference, and you ignored it. You cite Katecho, the other person who has consistently lied about me, as pointing out that I had “ignored Biblical passages”, when I had done no such thing. I’ve discussed far more passages than anyone else here. The only thing I have ignored, when possible,… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

I’ve discussed far more passages than anyone else here. The only thing I have ignored, when possible, is Katecho, because he is not a reasonable conversation partner …

How can Jonathan make such a boast about raw tonnage of passages if he’s been ignoring me? What if I’ve been running circles around him this whole time?

What if Jonathan actually has “ignored Biblical passages” simply because he has been ignoring me?

Maybe everyone else can see the problem, even if Jonathan can’t.

John
Member

I have not lied about you. I was wrong about your residence being Montana but that was a simple error . You seem to think you have a corner on the “correct” interpretation of Biblical passages while ignoring those that do not support your views. I asked a series of simple questions. None of them required you to post personal information unless you consider “owning a car” to be a personal question. If you continue to lecture us regarding our need to divest ourselves of all material possessions I don’t think it is too much to ask questions that will… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

John, you asked me a number of quite personal questions about my own life, questions literally no one else here has ever been asked to answer. And I agreed to answer all of them if you simply answered ONE, much less personal question for me. What difference would my answers make in your life, in this conversation. I have asked you that question four times now, and you have ignored it every time. That’s telling. If the hypothetical scenario I shared were an accurate reflection of the way I live, how would that change how you approach this conversation and… Read more »

John
Member

Mr. Frank; Your answers would help me determine if I should read your posts or pass over them as I pass over those on this site who used to spew racial hatred. If you consider yourself poor in these United States I think we deserve an answer given your penchant for telling us how to handle the material possessions God has blessed us with.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

So you truly mean that, that you’ll take my posts more seriously depending on my life circumstances? First, I’ll emphasize again that I have never once said that I “consider myself poor” or told you where I live. Second, if you really mean what you say honestly, then I will honestly reveal something of my personal life. The hypothetical scenario I gave you earlier is indeed basically how my wife and I have lived for the last five years. 90% of what I said is true of my life, I changed a couple of significant details about exactly where and… Read more »

John
Member

Thank you! I do fail to see why you were so reluctant to answer the questions I posed to you . If what you say is true then you certainly live an honorable Christian lifestyle. I applaud you and your wife for helping this young lady. God bless!

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I don’t like answering the questions because it’s useless. It makes the discussion about me, not the Word of God (something Katecho is frequently driving to do). In other discussions, like the nonviolence one, Katecho and others have repeatedly attacked any detail or example from my private life that I have been willing to share, to the point that I knew it was useless. Knowing what I do with my life doesn’t make the word of God more or less true. If my life is completely false, it is still the truth. If the Word of God calls for us… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“You live in Montana” “you and your wife have laptops” “you have said that you are not rich” “He said he had voted for Gianforte” “He has a laptop, electricity, indoor plumbing, turns the faucet and clean water appears and has a job that pays him enough to eat and maintain the plumbing, electricity etc.” “he fails to understand how greatly he has been blessed relative to the rest of the world.” “You ignore Biblical passages that contradict your worldview.” And that’s just in this conversation. How many times are you allowed to make false assertions about another person, based… Read more »

John
Member

Mr. Frank; You are making things up. I have not asked you to reveal personal information. If having a car or indoor plumbing are “personal questions” then I believe you are a tad paranoid. If you choose to lecture us on this site then at least be honest and answer a few questions. I don’t think anyone here would regard the questions I have asked of you to be “personal.” Katecho simply pointed out that your interpretation of wealth in Proverbs was not limited to a bountiful harvest. When you use such phrases as “insisting that I share all the… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

If you can convince me that sharing my personal details would bring you, or I, or anyone else here closer to the Kingdom of God, I will do it in a heartbeat. All you have to do is convince me that my personal testimony will be actually meaningful, and not just another target for vicious personal attacks on my character.

Assume the previous scenario I laid out is 100% true. What would that change for you to know that?

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: If you can convince me that sharing my personal details would bring you, or I, or anyone else here closer to the Kingdom of God, I will do it in a heartbeat. Having electricity, internet access, and a computer in the home is just not that personal anymore. As we have seen, it’s quite typical, even on American Indian Reservations in Idaho. However, if Jonathan doesn’t want to confirm or deny anything, before God and man, that’s perfectly fine with me. His continuous posting on Wilson’s blog is sufficient to complete the irony. Jonathan wrote: Assume the previous… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

So Katecho’s position – anyone who could possibly participate in this conversation is automatically disqualified from . That’s quite a convenient position. I wish you could see the

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: So Katecho’s position – anyone who could possibly participate in this conversation is automatically disqualified from . That’s quite a convenient position. No, I haven’t disqualified anyone from participating. I don’t even agree with Jonathan’s universal ascetic hermeneutic. I simply point out the implications of it with regard to a range of modern conveniences, and then watch Jonathan squirm under the obvious irony and hypocrisy of the whole thing. Jonathan seems to have rationalized his continued possession of laptops, electricity, and cell and internet service, even though Christians in centuries past have done all manner of good works… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: Let’s say that our small simple home has only a light bulb, a single electrical outlet, frequently disrupted electricity. …. I don’t have any internet lines and access slow internet networks through cell lines and a work line at the office. Even in Jonathan’s hypothetical, he still has a laptop, electricity in the home, and cell and internet access. Some of his transportation and internet access may even be at no cost to him. Luxury by the standard of history, or even by current global standards. Even Jonathan’s hypothetical setting is loaded with enough irony to ask when… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“If Jonathan isn’t even going to practice what he preaches, then he doesn’t have any credibility preaching it here.”

You’re a joke, a caricature of yourself.

“If Jonathan can communicate with us, he has no credibility to communicate with us.”

You’ve created an imaginary strawman, a position that neither you nor I nor anyone I’ve ever met holds, and then claimed that if I don’t hold your strawman position then I have no right to talk….even though it’s a position that you yourself don’t even hold.

That’s simply nonsensical.

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

… and then claimed that if I don’t hold your strawman position then I have no right to talk …

Speaking of jokes and caricatures, I never said Jonathan had no right to talk. What I said was that Jonathan would have no credibility, and it’s true. If he isn’t going to practice what he preaches, he can’t expect to have any credibility here. Pretty straightforward.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

So Katecho, I wouldn’t say I’m poor, but do you really honestly believe that no one with electricity or internet access can be considered poor under any circumstances? So I wonder…when you act in obedience to Luke 14:12-14 and have banquets at your home to which you invite the poor, who do you invite? If everyone will electricity and computer access is non-poor, how many poor people do you actually know? How do you serve the poor in your own life, personally, by that definition you hold? When Jesus says, “You will always have the poor among you”, was he… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: So Katecho, I wouldn’t say I’m poor, but do you really honestly believe that no one with electricity or internet access can be considered poor under any circumstances? If Jonathan wouldn’t say that he is poor, then, according to his hermeneutic, he clearly needs to stop clinging to his possessions and give more of them away until he is. Right? My hermeneutic of Scripture certainly permits of relative poverty, and relative wealth, but Jonathan’s only seems to do so to the extent that he thinks he can boast or cast a rebuke. He simply does not practice the… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Katecho, what do you believe your purpose is in this conversation? Lying about my lifestyle once again, and claiming that I interpret passages in ways that I don’t interpret them, obviously isn’t going to help me. I’ve been led by God my entire Christian life to where I am, am quite certain that I am moving in His will here, and since you’re critiquing a position I don’t hold, your confused and antagonistic words obviously won’t move me from it. It obviously isn’t going to help you in any way. And I really doubt you think that anyone else is… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

So far, the minor details I have given (the fact I own a laptop) have only led me to literally months of brutal personal attacks from multiple posters, including over a dozen different attacks from one poster alone.

Brutal attacks? Where’s a fainting couch when Jonathan needs one?

Since when did pointing out irony (and hypocrisy) constitute a brutal attack?

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

The only hypocrisy here have been between two different fake versions of me in your mind.

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: You are continuing Katecho’s insistent, useless distraction of making false ad hominem attacks on my life rather than dealing with the Scriptures and the call to obedience that I have discussed. Has ONE person actually dealt with the John Chrysostom or Basil the Great quotes that I put out? I did address Jonathan’s quote of Chrysostom, and I’ve dealt with Jonathan’s misrepresentation of Scripture, so that’s two empty complaints coming from him. Regarding ad hominem, Jonathan seems to be unaware that ad hominem is not always a fallacy, and is particularly relevant when someone argues that some behavior… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I do like the words you shared from Francis de Sales. Talk freely with the poor, take them into your own home, go into their homes, share freely with them, become their servant, tend to their sick with your own hands – those words have Jesus in them. In fact, I could provide exact Gospel quotations for nearly every one. Now, what proportion of rich Christians do you see taking St. Francis de Sales’s advice? What proportion of rich Christians do you know who freely take the poor into their own homes, go into their homes, and who act as… Read more »

Larry Geiger
Guest
Larry Geiger

Bob Dylan and Rod Stewart should never be allowed on a stage in front of people. Writing songs, ok. But perform? Never. I censor all Bob Dylan stuff all the time. Especially “Like a Rolling Stone” Good grief, what a train wreck.

MeMe
Guest

Bahahaha! I am grateful to meet a fellow disliker. I’m pretty sure such things are not allowed where I live.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

A train wreck, is it? Perhaps, if you are partial to trains, you might prefer Dylan’s two great classics, “Slow Train Coming” and “It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry.” Just a suggestion.

Barnie
Guest
Barnie

I apologize for reducing you views to a charicature. I typically avoid making requests because it’s presumptuous and you are a busy man with your own things to say. If you could indulge me. My views are in flux but overall they represent putting some rational framework around the things my father taught me and his father taught him. That is to say that I can be pretty confident that my beliefs in 10 or 20 years will be roughly what they are today. That cannot be said for the major American Christian denominations. Their beliefs are changing and are… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

“I no longer really trust them to mold my heart or mind or the minds of my family the way I would have a few years ago.” Can I empathize with you for a minute? You sound a bit like my husband and he has now totally rejected the church. The thing is, I have never really thought “the church” itself molds our hearts and minds, but rather our own relationship with the Lord. So we get into The Word, we invest in our own relationship and than church just becomes like the frosting on our cake. Hebrews comes to… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I just dealt with this issue in our latest membership class. I am in an OPC church, and we regularly ask our people to take membership pledges. I don’t know where you are theologically, but we are not going anywhere. We haven’t for a long time and the SJW craze spinning churches into a frenzy won’t happen here, I feel quite confident in saying. I am sympathetic to this concern, but rest assured that there are still some strong congregations, albeit small ones. The reason we ask for this is so that God commands us to be under the authority… Read more »

Gianni
Member
Gianni

Test

Gianni
Member
Gianni

Well, I’m listening to Bob Dylan — I gotta turn up the sound. But someone’s always yellin’, “Turn him down!” Well, beauty goes unrecognized — most of the time. I’d never say that he always done it the way that I’d have liked him to, but it ain’t me you’re lookin’ for, babe. What good am I? I’m one too many mornings and a thousand miles behind. Heart of mine, so malicious and so full of guile; give you an inch and you’ll take a mile. So many things that we never will undo. I know you’re sorry, I’m sorry… Read more »

John
Member

Thanks!

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay
Forever young.

John
Member

No one else is even close for sustained brilliance with the possible exception of Neil Young. Actually, I don’t agree with that but I thought you might like to see a Canadian in the mix. lol

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Leonard Cohen was pretty good, especially in the early days. “Suzanne” was my best song when I sang at coffee houses. I realized one day that I would rather feed my hand into a wood chipper than have to sing that one more time.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I don’t appreciate Leonard Cohen as a performer, but it warms my heart to see him and know that actual songwriting talent, and not superficials, could get someone so far.

Gianni
Member
Gianni

Oh, for the old timers, call me Gianni.