Maybe Letters Will Flatten the Curve

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Interesting Concept

“This is no longer November, but I believe he was wishing that the spirit of November might still be lingering a bit. Maybe it is, just a bit. Still there, but wafting away. Perhaps it has not yet entirely dissipated.”

Maybe November will continue until we flatten the curve.

Patrick

Patrick, or perhaps it will come and go, intermittently.

The Beowulf Project

Thank you for all you do.

I recently listened to your rendering of Beowulf on the Canon App. It was my first reading of Beowulf and I really enjoyed it. How long did it take you? Seems like a really big undertaking.

Mallory

Mallory, thanks. Yes, it was a big project, and took a number of years. But realize that it was done by means of plodding—a line or two a day, when I got to it. And then, when I was in the backstretch, Canon Press had a need for it in their curriculum, and so I moved it to the front burner.

Concerning the Mandatorians

Here is a Bible text that they could incorporate into a “love plea'”:

John 15:13—”Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”—So get the shot!

On second thought, the Mandatorians may see through that one.

Ron

Ron, thanks. I think they might.

“As with everything on the Internet, you shouldn’t always believe what you read.” – (Emily Brown, author, “Why Christians Won’t Get Vaccinated” – Relevant Magazine) Thank you Emily. I don’t believe everything I read on the internet—including you. Your statement cuts both ways.

Melody

Melody, yes. Everybody on the Internet wants to be not like everybody else on the Internet. Perhaps we need additional criteria.

A More General Problem

I couldn’t finish this last post. Because you are thriving as the rock star to our current Christian culture when your “fans” (the common plebeian Christians) aren’t thriving in of themselves at all. As you wail on your guitar we are tapping our feet along but that’s all. We are Christian to be sure but we hardly know each other and “groupie” and fervent believer, neither fits. We all long to be rock stars I think, in our own right, but as your “flock” we are just timid and bored and complacent lambs.. disengaged as the proximity between us and the cross ensures it’s wary distance. Your inspirational words have exasperated me in my heeding them—isolated lamb that we sheep are, in the cheering section.

Helen

Helen, don’t grow weary. I honestly think that things are going to get plenty exciting enough for everybody soon enough. And when that time comes, the time of preparation will be seen as having been valuable indeed.

An Old Chuckle

I was perusing old articles on Mablog, as I am wont to do, and I came across this belly laugh inducing gem:

“I am confessedly a Protestant yahoo, and to such an extent that I am even willing to be on the same side of an issue as Scott Clark—strange bedfellows, surely, and I won’t even complain about how Scott always wants to hog the confessional covers.”

You are a funny, funny man, man.

Regards,

Chortling in Wisconsin

P.S. I hope, that if it ever does come to this, to end up in the same re-education camp as you. I’m sure an occasional chuckle would do me some good.

Andrew

Andrew, let’s be sure to request the same cattle car.

A List of Novels?

Hello! I’m looking for some novel suggestions, both for myself and gift ideas. Do you have a recommended list of worthwhile novels? I had thought there was a book list somewhere on the blog, but I can’t find one now.

Noel

Noel, the book list is in the menu bar above—Books/Reading Log. But for your reading pleasure, I can list three novels that I think are really good: That Hideous Strength by Lewis, Peace Like a River by Enger, and Code of the Woosters by Wodehouse.

Thanks

I’m not writing with any specific thought in mind, only to encourage. I’d just like to share that Doug’s preaching, podcasts, public forums, debates, and more provide me with encouragement to be bold in sharing my beliefs with others. I appreciate Doug’s regular diplomacy even when faced with rude opposition. My wife and I find ourselves returning to Doug’s work as supplemental study in our free time. Thanks for modeling Christ for us.

Ryan

Ryan, thanks very much.

I was talking with my wife about the way COVID has unfolded over the last two in years and the wide and varying responses to it within the church. One thing we remarked over was how in everything you’ve said or written you never rely on one or two verses to the point of misappropriating them. I’m thinking particularly of the greatest commandment and Romans 13. As a laymen, it was unfamiliar territory to see these passages used like a hammer and then having to discern whether they applied in the way those using them thought they did. I think there is a place for these two passages in this whole mess but not when they are used in the service of secular ends or to silence discussion. What we’ve been thankful for in your work is that you look at the whole scope of what Scripture is saying and try your best to distill what is a faithful application of it.

I suppose good theology has always done that. Thanks Doug.

Jordan

Jordan, thanks for paying that kind of attention.

I just wanted to drop a quick note to tell you I am thankful God has led me to listening to and reading your spiritual insights and instruction. Hebrews 3:13 somewhat explains how I feel about your ministry as well as other Reformed men of the faith that I enjoy reading and listening to. I pray that more 1 Timothy 3 men come behind you.

Grace and Peace from Alabama, Roll Tide Roll

Ralph

Ralph, thank you. But I have to confess that this is the first time I have had to figure out how to respond to “grace and peace, roll tide.”

Tent Making

It wouldn’t surprise me if you have shared your thoughts on this already, so pardon me if I’m asking about old news. I’d like to know what you think about bi-vocational pastors—you know, the kind of preachers who have a job outside of the pulpit.

It always made sense to me that pastors should make their living from their ministry work. But in the Reformed camp there’s much talk about breaking down the sacred and secular divide. I’m not against this. However, this quest to put all of Christ back into all of life has been used as a defense for pastors working outside of the church, and I’m not sure that’s what the sentiment means.

The Word says that those who preach the gospel are to make their living from the gospel. Shepherding a flock is a full-time job in itself. I’ve been a firsthand witness to churches that suffer because the pastor is not wholly focused on his role as a minister. But does that mean it’s always wrong for a preacher to work an outside job?

My current pastor is bi-vocational himself, and until today, my husband, who desires to go into ministry, has had no issues with this. But the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith has something different to say and reading through it has caused us to rethink our original stance. We’ve heard our pastor’s arguments. Now I’d like to know what you think. You obviously do a lot of work, but from what I can see, I don’t think that it’s unhitched from your work as a pastor.

Megan

Megan, thanks. I have not written on this in any detail, but here are my thoughts in a nutshell. Tent making is lawful, in that the apostle Paul modeled it for us, and gave us the term. But I think that as a general rule, a church should want a gifted man to be full time with them, and labor to make it a reality. A called man should be willing to be a tent maker to help get a ministry off the ground. Another variable is one that my friend Chris Wiley recommends, and with which I agree, which is to have some outside income as a way of preventing manipulative ecclesiastical politics. That, and the contact with real world problems first hand that it provides.

Book of the Month?

Glad to see you link to Berenson’s Pandemia. Maybe make it the book of the month?

Kevin

Kevin, perhaps. Quite possible. I haven’t finished it yet.

In Plodcast #206: Vaccine Passports and the Ethics of War, Doug makes a parallel between lying and killing in wartime—specifically that lying in peacetime is to deception in state of war what murder in peacetime is to killing in war. I am interested in reading more deeply about this topic—ethics of deception in state of war—from a Christian perspective. What books or resources would you recommend as starting points for this study?

Very respectfully,

J

J, there is no one book that I know of. I gleaned a good bit of it from things mentioned in passing here and there by the Reconstructionists. I think your best bet would be to look in the menu bar above, under About/Blog Post Scripture Index, and then look up any passages that deal with Rahab or the Hebrew midwives.

On Our Standard of Living

On the “Hard Question” from the Letters Post on November 30, 2021

Dear Pastor Wilson,

One of the things that stuck out to me about this “Hard Question” was that this is simply a return to the mean. Most human beings throughout most of human history have been utterly unable to earn enough wages from their personal labor to afford any kind of real property. That is why the words for “Noble” and “Landowner” are almost interchangeable in so many languages. It was only as the economic implications of Protestantism started to take hold that such things began to change (i.e. the “gentle” classes of Britain).

Another thing that stuck out to me was to me, the (unusual for this blog) lack of biblical references in the responses to the young man both in your response and in the comments. Everyone seems to be focused on practicality of moving to a better area or accepting life in a California “project” neighborhood.

But since I know from history that this was basically a universal problem prior to the Protestant Reformation, and it was such a universal problem that there was no way to just “move to Idaho” to escape it, the Bible MUST have some way of addressing this. I hear young men ask these kinds of questions all the time, and I implore you to give them more of a framework for understanding how this piece of life is to be done.

I’m a big believer that if following the instructions of God in one area breaks your life in another area, God is giving you an opportunity to apply MORE of His law to said broken area. I can’t quote you on that exactly, but I didn’t believe it before I started reading your blog, (along with Gary North, DeMar, Apologia, etc). Not that moving to Idaho isn’t good advice, it is, but please sir, what does the Bible say, not about persecution, but about land, economics, and labor. There has to be more, doesn’t there?

Gregory

Gregory, you are exactly right. Scriptures does address this, and fully. And I have written a lot about it on the blog here, but the posts are all over tarnation. Look under the tags the “Good of Affluence,” “Money, Love, Desire,” and “Wealth and the Christian.” I am wanting to assemble them into a book some time soon.

Hypergamy and Snobbery

Life in Girl World. What is the difference between hypergamy and snobbery?

Snob: a person with an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth who seeks to associate with social superiors and dislikes people or activities regarded as lower-class. A person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.

C.S. Lewis in his book, The Four Loves, refers to a … “social or snobbish pride: A delight in knowing, and being known to know, distinguished people.” The snob wishes to attach themselves to something that is already considered an elite.

Justin

Justin, the difference would have to lie in the intent or motive. This is because Scripture requires wives to look up to and respect their husbands, and if a man is living in such a way as to make this easy for her to do, then that obedience would be hypergamy. So in affairs of the heart, all snobbery would be hypergamic, but not all hypergamy is snobbery.

God Rest Ye Merry

This isn’t actually a comment or reaction to any of your content. I honestly just have a question and figured I’d try this route for getting a response. Can you help me understand advent? I’m struggling to find resources that aren’t sparkly, fluffy, babyish, or a combination of all of that. I really want to understand the history of it. Why we celebrate it. Why the four weeks. Why the three purple candles and one pink one. It seems more of just a tradition (some may say ritual) of man than a prescribed celebration. So I’m trying to discern if I’m just being grumbly toward something I don’t understand, or if this is possibly another thing that the church likes to hold onto as a necessity, whereas it is actually a man-made construct. Don’t get me wrong, I want to rightly celebrate Christ with joy, but I don’t love doing things because we always do them. So that’s why I want to understand it better so that I can teach our kids why and how to celebrate, rather than just reading frilly books because we always have.

Do you have any thoughts or recommended resources? Everything I could find on a quick google search directed me to Wikipedia, CNN, Catholic sites, and other very obscure pages or pages I would not consider as authorities on the topic.

Thanks.

Evan

Evan, yes, you are right. There is a welter of confusing (and frequently contradictory) views on the subject. And the best I can do is refer you to my book on the subject.

Pastor,

Your book “God Rest Ye Merry” is really making my Advent. Thanks for that.

God bless your ministry.

Kurt

Kurt, thanks.

Thanks for Noticing It

I pray you don’t take this as nit-picking or mean spirited, I just have genuine curiosity. I enjoyed the video of your church singing “All Hail the Power.” We sing this song in our church as well so I enjoy hearing others singing it. But I was surprised to see a man in your church wearing a hat while singing in this video. I know I take a more literal reading of I Cor 10 (long hair and physical covering required for women in cooperate worship) that it seems you do. But I would have thought that your church would at minimum teach that men have their heads uncovered at all times during worship.

Roger

Roger, yes, we do teach that. That incident must have slipped through unnoticed. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Another Writing Project?

In Chapter 7 [of Rules for Reformers], you cite 7 generally accepted, secular memes the responses to which you assert could benefit from book-length treatments. You, however, failed to volunteer yourself. Please accept your own challenge and write these 7 books. We desperately need a more comprehensive, consistent Christian understanding of the story we’re in and the history of our people. I would love to get my head straight and gain a Christian perspective about the objects in the rearview mirror. I didn’t know they were distorted until I read the fine print.

Todd

Todd, thanks for the nudge. Or the kick in the ankle. Whatever it was.

What Was Gandalf?

Given that Israel’s civil code prescribed death for witches, would it be just for Gandalf to be put to death if the men in LOTR became theonomists?

Tyler

Tyler, I’d like to see us try it!

Actually, Gandalf was no more a witch than Moses was when he parted the Red Sea with his staff—appearances to the contrary. Tolkien goes out of his way to distinguish the hard magical arts of someone like Saruman, say, and someone for whom it was more natural and organic. Gandalf was among the lesser Valar, and was more like an angel than anything else.

If Roe . . .

If Roe does get overturned and abortion gets tossed back to the states do you have thoughts on leaving states that allow abortions for states which don’t (think Illinois vs Indiana)? It seems to me that God’s judgment would be on states which allowed abortions still and it would be wise to take your family and leave. Is this something Christians should be preparing to do? I don’t want to be stuck in Sodom.

Erik

Erik, if Roe is overturned, I believe that we should immediately consolidate our position in those states that outlaw abortion. And then after that, we should begin the process of bringing pressure to bear on those states that still allow it. That pressure could include productive Christians leaving. The chances are good, however, that there will be a complex set of reasons for leaving, and not just one.

Sure, Why Not?

Would you be willing to comment on this clip of Todd Friel discussing a sermon excerpt from Voddie Baucham concerning Romans 13? Is it really just looking for an excuse to be rebellious to say that the constitution is our governing authority in the U.S.? I have never really thought through this stuff until the last couple years. I suspect that for many of us believers, the inclination to resist the government is far more coming from our sense of freedom and rebellion rather than careful consideration of Romans 13 and what the governing authority actually is, so I’m sure there’s so real validity to the rebuke here. But it felt a little like a straw man was being attacked, as I’m not aware of anyone who demands unquestioned and unqualified submission from his wife and children. But nevertheless, the video got me thinking.

Nick

Nick, sure. There is a principle in there that I do agree with, as the first couple of points I make should make clear. But I believe the problem is far more complicated than Wretched is making out.

What to Burn, What to Burn?

Looking Forward to Next Year | Maybe you can set an old barn on fire next year? Maybe have you (Doug) set it on fire while inside the barn, but while walking out of the barn?

Trey

Trey, thanks. And thanks to all who made other suggestions. We do need to think this through.

Networking in Africa?

This is not a response to any article of yours, I just have a question to ask. But first, thank you for your bold faithfulness to God’s word. I don’t always see as you do, but I’ve learned so much from you.

I’d like to know the history of egalitarianism in the church, when and where it started. I live in Kumasi, Ghana, West Africa and I can’t find a biblical church. They’re all egalitarian and most are also prosperity Gospelers. I go to a methodist church that hasn’t bothered with church discipline in years, is only about the money and ordains women pastors. In fact the pastor they just brought (they reshuffle every year or so) is a woman. I want a clear outline of when it became acceptable in church for women to preach and even though I’ve searched online, I can’t find any history on it.

I’d read any books you suggest, I just want to know whether my suspicion that it started with feminism is true or not. Also, if you happen to know someone who knows of a biblical church in Kumasi – Ghana, West Africa, I’d love to know where it is.

Thank you for your time and God bless you.

Afia

Afia, I don’t know, but this is a question we can perhaps we can crowd source. Does anyone know of good contacts for our friend in Ghana?

A Long and Winding Road

Thank you for word-smithing in such rare form and for using the word wordsmith. I miss that descriptor. I survived the gauntlet of journalism school (in Canada, of all places) 35 years ago and have pondered with horror in recent days the fact that my peers from those years are senior media handlers today. With regard to the significance of history they were, and I understate, as dumb as bricks. In other areas of critical thought they were merely uninterested.

Lamentable career paths and the cohorts they imply are not why I am writing you.

I am writing to express my appreciation for your historical, doctrinal, theological, ontological and epistemological fluency and balance. I will prevail on you and tell you why.

My childhood reference for Christian doctrine was informed by Hal Lindsey and Jimmy Swaggart and slightly later Kenneth Copeland. Yes, that I made it to adulthood with only a self-afflictive delinquency is remarkable and I regularly thank the Lord for it. At crucial moments God supplied triage and provision of superlative potency. One in a million chance: I met a girl. I married her. We have (fully grown) babies.

For decades the pursuit of Christian as an actual, substantial, rigorous experience of being has occupied every moment of my time not absorbed by the imperatives of family, work, and engagement with church and community. Regrettable and misdirected explorations, as well as deeply blessed ones, are too many to recount but they have led me here, to Blog & Mablog and the entirely unexpected “poetry” of language and thought to which your writing seems to appeal. I have enjoyed your reflections on the role and character of poetry in Christian being.

I do mean something quite specific, and not hyperbolic, by this. Twenty-odd years ago I was introduced to the world of Eastern Orthodoxy and more importantly the writings of the ante-Nicene fathers. The foreignness of their expression did not obscure their obvious fierceness and clear expression and reiteration of Apostolic witness. Since that introduction I have loved and returned to their writings over and over. Only their own words describe why I find them indispensable. From Ignatius:

“My love has been crucified, and there is no fire in me that loves anything; but there is living water springing up in me which says to me inwardly, Come to the Father. I have no delight in corruptible food, nor in the pleasures of this life….

…I desire the drink, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life.”

No need for banal comment from me on that.

Again compressing years into seconds, I arrived at a certain point (without the advantage of a classical education) trying to close the gap between ante-Nicene poetry and the disorienting world of western Protestantism that waited for me every time I went to church. Though I have been guilty of egregious criticism over the loss of church leadership, I have repented of that and realize, at least, that I am as culpable as anyone else for the decline of spiritual fatherhood.

Again, my problem: How to bring the vigour and truth of the ante-Nicenes into a lived 21st Century following of Christ. Short answer, the Puritans.

About a year ago my wife gave me an audio-book subscription and, for reasons I cannot recall, I chose to make Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress my first listen. I hadn’t read it in its full version for 40 years and it had been 20 since I read an abbreviated and beautifully illustrated version to my kids. Hearing it as a man in his mid-fifties was apocalyptic.

The revelations produced a chain reaction that continues to tour me through Baxter, Sibbes, Owen and others. In them, as in the quote from Thomas Brooks below, I found the ante-Nicene spirit with surprising applicability and fit for a fellow such as me.

“Such as diligently search the Scripture shall find that true blessedness, happiness, and salvation is attributed to several signs: sometimes to the fear of God, sometimes to faith, sometimes to repentance, sometimes to love, sometimes to meekness, sometimes to humility, sometimes to patience, sometimes to poverty of spirit, sometimes to holy mourning, sometimes to hungering and thirsting after righteousness; so that if a godly man can find any one of those in himself, he may safely and groundedly conclude of his salvation and justification, though he cannot see all those signs in him.”

As I absorbed more and more of these writers I came to see something that was almost completely absent from my religious tutelage but so vital to what is truly Christian: a constant disposition of repentance.

And by some algorithmic fiat (more rightly, the provisions of grace), I watched you drive a burning truck and speak an essay.

If I may be so bold, and here I am open to correction, your work seems to be something of a nexus for the things I’ve been striving to draw together. I reckon you bring together the early church, the Puritans, and a vigorous contemporary Christian presence in the world quite beautifully. You have gone far along the road before me and I am grateful to you for it.

Lionel

Lionel, you are very kind. And I thank you for recognizing what we are at least trying to do. Pray for us.

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Bj
Bj
9 months ago

Doug, My apologies from all truely christian Alabamians…. Very inappropriate to have the word Grace so close to that vulgar chant. Tisk tisk. WDE 😉

Lyan
Lyan
9 months ago

For Afia in Africa
Perhaps the people that run the Reformational Study Centre close to Pretoria can be of assistance – in any case lots of reading/ study/ sermon prep material there! https://www.refstudycentre.com/

Kwaw
Kwaw
9 months ago
Reply to  Lyan

Hello Afia in Kumasi, Ghana:

There is at least one reformed church in the Kumasi area. It is the Reformed Baptist Church in Kwadaso, Kumasi. I would be happy to put you in touch with people there. Also, check out this site that has a list of churches in Ghana and contacts that can help you: https://www.reformedinghana.com/reformed-churches-in-ghana/

kyriosity
kyriosity
9 months ago
Reply to  Lyan

Another contact for Afia is Sam Sey (https://twitter.com/SlowToWrite), a Ghanian expat.

DeBok
DeBok
9 months ago
Reply to  Lyan

I know the people at the reformational study centre. They’ll definitely be able to help. Try using their contact form. If that doesn’t work, let me know (by replying to this comment) and I’ll ask rev Jopie myself

Rudolf Byker
Rudolf Byker
9 months ago
Reply to  Lyan

Lyan, thanks for bringing up RSC. I work there. :)

Afia, this is maybe not a direct solution to your problem, but you might be able to point your leadership here https://www.christianstudylibrary.org/pl for some free (reformed) study material for their sermon prep. We’re also working on a new app with a similar, but broader, purpose: https://voxviva.app . The latter is very much a work in progress, but there are updates about every second week.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Pastor Wilson, your statistics yesterday were meaningless. Of course Idaho is low in total deaths, it’s one of the smallest states. And why compare to Massachusetts, one of the densest? Why not compare like to like?

Idaho: 2,225 deaths/million
Oregon: 1,249 deaths/million
Washington: 1,248 deaths/million

These are three neighbors and every factor (less dense, less testing, last to get hit) should favor Idaho having a lower count. So how does it have double the death rate of Oregon and Washington, if not for policy?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Also worth pointing out that, as I showed you in earlier weeks, Idaho’s excess death count has been something like 40% higher than the Covid death count every time Covid deaths peak (but not outside of Covid outbreaks), demonstrating the true death toll is undoubtedly higher than the official count.

Remember when you blasted Fauci for predicting up to 200,000 deaths and you suggested it was sufficient reason for everyone to stop listening to him? When, by that measure, should they stop listening to you?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Thomas Bauer
Thomas Bauer
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan was bored of his life;
Rather than make joy, he made strife.
Having puss in his soul,
He played an excellent troll,
As he danced to that ol’ serpent’s fife.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Thomas Bauer

When Jonathan tries to fact check,
Some think he’s a pain in the neck;
But if he’s revealing
A truth unappealing,
Then I say “Why not? What the heck?”

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

You posted a useless statistic to muddy the waters, then acknowledged that some people would call you out on it, so you posted more useless stats with no comparisons to further muddy the waters, and then vaguely claimed “the per capita numbers are comparable everywhere.”

I pointed out quite clearly that no, the per capita numbers are not comparable, Idaho’s per capita deaths are almost 200% larger than Oregon and Washington. Played out across the country, it would be like the difference between 500,000 people dying and 900,000 people dying.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Nice try Doug. That that might fool your flock, but the rest of us see through your shell game.

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Pastor, The problem isn’t that you quoted one misleading statistic, or the attempt at providing context. It is that the whole set of paragraphs makes no logical sense. At the same time, the section is claiming the mantle of logic… Of you want to make the case that any disease that kills less than x% of people (whatever X is for you) shouldn’t warrant a policy response then make that case. I would probably accept it! But other people get to vote too, alas. But don’t throw around shoddy numbers and act as though your conclusion is self evident. I… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, when people have that different calculus, despite all the evidence to the contrary, then there is no other conclusion: They are deluded and/or evil.

As a particularly egregious example, when policy-makers tell everyone else to mask up or face consequences, then turn right around and party maskless, there is no way to describe that level of hypocrisy as anything other than evil.

Those who believe these hypocritical leaders are acting in our best interest are deluded.

And if acknowledging obvious truths offends your delicate sensibilities, then your priorities are out of whack.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

FP has the same problem as Justin, poor reading comprehension and an inability to make a case. He thinks his comments are facts and expects us to bow down to his secret knowledge from on high. If it weren’t for the fact we are dealing with life and death issues, it would be laughable. He reminds me of that timid man behind the curtain who pretends to be The Great and Powerful OZ. Your willingness to accept more deaths and more risks for “more freedom” is troubling. More freedom to do what? We are asked to get vaccinated and to… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Willie has the same problem as Jonathan, poor reading comprehension and an inability to make a case. He thinks his comments are facts and expects us to bow down to his secret knowledge from on high. If it weren’t for the fact that we’re dealing with an eminently survivable disease, it would be laughable. He reminds me of that timid man behind the curtain who pretends to be The Great and Powerful OZ.

Now, to have fun watching Willie shoot himself in the foot because, like his daddy, he just can’t stand being mocked.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, With regards to safety tradeoffs, we make them every day. Driving is much safer than it once was in this country, but it still claims around 30,000 lives per year. And these lives are skewed toward young healthy people who are losing many potential years of life.. We could drop this number to approximately 0 by making all auto manufacturers put givernors on vehicles not allowing them to go over 30 mph and requiring all older vehicles to be retrofitted such. We could probably cut deaths by 75% by setting the governors at 45 mph. Surely that inconvenience would… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

It does come down to an ethical/economic calculus, but finding the right one requires that we agree on the seriousness of the risk–which means that we must first establish a consensus on the accuracy of the data. I don’t think this is likely to happen any time soon. I think that liberals, operating within the care/harm system of values, have overestimated their ability to prevent illness and death, and have underestimated the economic and social costs of various measures. In this they are joined by public health officials who, understandably, have a single focus. They remind me of the old… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jilly, Very wise, and quite right. There have been enormous knowledge problems throughout and people have reverted to their priors and many other, who may have a philosophical bias toward non-intervention, had very real fear of blood on their hands if they didn’t do something and it turned out that was the wrong choice. O am very sympathetic to the plight of magistrates for the past couple of years. Despite what some may say, most of them are not evil, and most don’t want to out their boot on people. No mayor want to tell citizens of his city that… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

If you’re talking about the same article I read, his models seemed to ignore so many relevant factors that I have trouble seeing how he ended up with concrete numbers. To isolate three of the largest issues: 1. Scott suggests that lockdown states did about 20% better than non-lockdown states from what seems to be just a raw comparison. He just tossed aside the fact that blue states are much different from red states in terms of Covid transmission risks to a degree that makes such a unqualified comparison impossible (the reasoning Scott gave for ignoring confounding variables was poor… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, The effects of something like lockdowns is very difficult to model for a number of reasons. We aren’t all talking about the same thing when we say lockdown, populations are very different, natural variability often swamps the effect size of the intervention, etc. That being said, Scott has done an admirable job of considering the issue, and he did not only use US data, he used data from Europe, etc. He also used time series data and gave lockouts the maximum possible effect while doing so. I think his conclusion is basically sound If you have a better source… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

The fact that he completely dismissed confounding variables of population density and demographics (and didn’t even mention different climate, testing, and tallying practices) is a huge shortcoming.

The European data suffered from the same issue as the US data – Scott rightly noting that lockdown-lite Sweden performed very dramatically worse than every other “Scandanavian” country around it, but then partially dismissed that result with quite unrelated data rather than considering that the direct Sweden-to-Finland/Norway/Denmark/Iceland comparisons are very likely to be the most accurate measure, full stop.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think that was the problem of one-size-fits-all lockdowns and mandates. If no measures at all had been taken, COVID would have swept through LA’s densely populated neighborhoods. Workers would have brought it home to their multi-generation families. People who opposed lockdowns said that the answer was to isolate those at high risk of serious illness or death in the event of infection. But anyone familiar with LA’s demographics would have seen how impossible that task would be. When half a dozen extended family members are coming in and out of a household, there is no way to protect Grandma… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Yup, and there were unnecessary aspects early on, like closing beaches and trails or keeping more restrictions on restaurants/businesses than necessary. And I think the the schools “should” have gone back to full-time earlier, though whether this was feasible considering the differing demands of all stakeholders (especially teachers and parents) is another question.

But as you point out, not locking down urban areas at all in the worst of the peak would have been disastrous for the health care system.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, California, LA in this case, is similar to Idaho. The governors could have activated their disaster chain of command and received help without any problem and no risk of hospitals or morgues being overrun. Idaho didn’t ask for out of state help until this year and then only a tiny bit because Governor Little was on the hot seat for crying wolf. LA had USNS Mercy docked there with a complement of over 800 medical professionals. They treated 77 folks. 77. It was all political. NYC, Houston, Seattle and other places had Corps of Engineer hospitals set up and… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dr. Dave, the building of those temporary hospitals was in 2020, during the reign of Donald Trump. The greatest president, ever!! Don’t take my word for it, just ask anyone storming the Capitol on Jan.6, 2021. Or Doug.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

When LA experienced its peak, the Mercy ship was long gone. I know that the hospitals were overrun because I know people who work in some ICUs and I saw the video footage of the 18-wheelers. Our peak surge was from November 2020 to January 2021. The Governor deployed the National Guard simply for body disposal. On one of the worst days it was reported: “LOS ANGELES — The situation here is dire. Every minute, 10 people test positive for Covid-19. Every eight minutes, someone dies. Ambulances circle for hours, unable to find ERs that can accept patients. Hospitals are… Read more »

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, I don’t dispute the timing. The problem is that Newsome wouldn’t use the resources at his disposal. If he had asked for Mercy to remain in LA and actually used that ship’s facilities, the problem would have been minimal instead of the mess that he created. If Newsome wanted ICU beds and staff to take care of patients, all he had to do was ask. But, Newsome didn’t. Under America’s emergency management system, there are a multitude of resources available to prevent problems from being huge problems. Most of the politicians don’t know or care to use those emergency… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, after Mercy departed in May it was sent to Portland for a major maintenance overall including the addition of a new flight deck, and it was still unavailable when the next surge hit. So your claim that Newsome could have just used the ship again is factually inaccurate.

https://news.usni.org/2021/01/05/hospital-ship-usns-mercy-tied-up-in-maintenance-cant-deploy-for-covid-relief

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, the Corps of Engineers built several full service ICU type hospitals for various cities around the US. Just like Comfort and Mercy, they were essentially unused. If a sufficient request and capability is needed, ships magically sail out of dry dock. Airplanes are rerouted. Personnel are moved overnight. Been there. Done that. “I also ask that you call on our federal partners to bring back the USNS Mercy with accompanying medical staff to the Port of Los Angeles.” LA Supervisor Hahn Newsome had all sorts of options. In the Emergency Management system, you are supposed to ask for a… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, there was never that particular type of need that the massive expenditure and time commitment of building a new hospital on the spot would have sorted. Temporary facilities were indeed used in various ways in emergency situations, with many of the same shortcomings that a temporary Corps facility would have had. But the greatest issue was simple manpower at every level of the process and there were massive efforts to distribute medical manpower across the nation to places of greatest need. In many respects California was handling it better than most, even with the great suffering involved. Despite being… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“ Of course Idaho is low in total deaths, it’s one of the smallest states. And why compare to Massachusetts, one of the densest? “ He addressed per capita numbers in literally the next sentence after the one you reference. Either you stopped reading at that exact spot, or you’re being, and this a very charitable interpretation, accidentally misleading in presenting the impression that Doug did not deal with anything other than total deaths. “Remember when you blasted Fauci for predicting up to 200,000 deaths and you suggested it was sufficient reason for everyone to stop listening to him?” I imagine that… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

He posted unhelpful stats, then mockingly created an opponent who would call him out on it, so he then followed with further unhelpful stats. Not once making a comparison of like to like.

It’s just rhetorical junk. Why post it in the first place if you know it’s invalid? And how is acknowledging someone will call you out considered a sufficient defense, when he never justified posting the first #’s nor followed up with any actual meaningful comparisons?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Justin Parris
Justin Parris
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Those are all points to make in your original post. They are not points to make to the person who pointed out that you quite obviously were blatantly misrepresenting the situation. If Doug’s dealings on the topic were so wholly inadequate, it raises serious questions as to why you would bother to present your case as though he had never made them. You’re forcing people to believe one of two alternatives. Either Doug’s real argument was true and preemptively defeated your point, so you ignored it because what you wanted to say wouldn’t work otherwise, or Doug’s real argument was… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I didn’t misrepresent the situation Justin. And I note this is virtually the exact interpretive error you made when Demo, Will, myself, and others have called you out before. I have no idea what you consider Doug’s “real argument”. Saying that Idaho was 37th in deaths was his real argument. Saying that Massachusetts had a high per-capita death rate was his real argument. Listing a huge string of stats for California that made no obvious point was his real argument. Exactly how much of all that do you expect me to quote? I wanted to point out, quite clearly, that… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Sam Rutherford
Sam Rutherford
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It appears that you have not stopped listening to him, and maybe you should….

You act like everyone that visits this blog needs you to fact check everything that Wilson writes. We don’t and would appreciate if you would stop clogging up the comments with your fact checking. We know you think he is wrong. It is strange that you feel the need to point this out over and over again.

You remind me of Proverbs 27
15A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Sam Rutherford

I certainly don’t think everyone who visits this blog needs to fact check everything that Wilson writes. I would prefer that he simply did that himself. But he has shown zero desire to do so, and instead has posted a steady stream of misinformation on numerous topics, as many, many people have called him out for.

If you don’t want to factcheck him, feel free not to. But don’t complain when someone else does it for you. I suspect that posting correct information is somewhat more Biblical than posting falsehoods.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Sam: “You act like everyone that visits this blog needs you to fact check everything that Wilson writes.”

Contentious Woman: “I certainly don’t think everyone who visits this blog needs to fact check everything that Wilson writes.”

Hey, Big Drip: Would it kill you, for once in your miserable life, to knock it off with misrepresenting what other people say? After all, I suspect that posting correct information is somewhat more Biblical than posting falsehoods.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Sorry FP, I missed the “you”. That was an unintentional error and made no difference to absolutely anything that proceeded after it.

I suggest you return to last week’s rant, where on 4 different occasions you made false claims which I corrected with proof. You even claimed that I wouldn’t be able to cite the exact proof, and when I did so, you ran away.

I suggest everyone take a look – just search for “FP” and you’ll see what transpired every time.

https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/sincerely-yours-november.html#comments

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Talk about posting a steady stream of misinformation.

Get a job, Jonathan. It’s apparent you have nothing better to do than to beat dead horses — and the devil is having a field day with your idle hands.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

That would be another false claim on your part. I already linked the evidence for my claim – just go to the link and search for the FP phrases

“by one person”
“where’s the citation”
“bunch of hot air”
“this thing ain’t a vaccine”
“you yourself admitted this thing ain’t a vaccine”
“I didn’t make that claim”
“Ken B admitted it isn’t”
“by definition, the coronavirus shot isn’t a vaccine”
“talk out your rump”

For every one of those FP comments, you can scroll down and see him proven wrong with clear evidence.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, did you ever find scripture that allows the government to take from one and give to someone else who isn’t working?

The only example I can find is in Genesis 41. That was for a one time event, the foretold seven years famine. It was not for a long lasting system.

Neither you nor Demo have been able to show scripture allowing/authorizing the government to steal from one and give to another.

Last edited 9 months ago by Dave
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Always with the meaningless deflections on subjects literally no one was talking about even then…

Did you ever find Scripture that allows people to set up a monetary system at all? Or vote for a secular leader? To build roads, or process fecal waste?

As has been pointed out to you, modern Christians including the Reformers have felt that provisions for the poor could be a legitimate function of government. Even the ones you tried to cite as examples in your defense turned out to be on our side on this issue, Dave, and you ignored that.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, as was pointed out by the reformers and plenty of others — Run to the Bible not to man’s faulty judgement. It is not a legitimate use of government funds to steal from those who work and giver to those who do not work. Never mind the reformers, LBJ or your own thoughts. It is not scriptural. Run to the Bible. Explain why you think a verse is to your point. You cut and paste without any explanation of your thoughts on why a particular verse backs up your interpretation. You can’t find a verse to support your position… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

But if the reformers believed that involuntary taxation to sustain the poor isn’t theft, then do you think they were wrong in their interpretation of scripture?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

lol – none of those come remotely close to proving that federal governments should mint money and run elections, they aren’t even remotely simlilar situations. If you’re going to go with those verses, then I could easily use Deuteronomy 14:28 and Deuteronomy 26:12 to support programs for the poor. Who are you even trying to convince?

And I’ll also point out, again, that this is a deflection on top of a deflection – literally NO ONE was talking about government programs for the poor except for you bringing them up.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, last week we were talking about government programs and didn’t get to finish the discussion.

Both of your Deuteronomy verses concern the tithe. Tithing is for the church and taking care of the poor is a church responsibility, not a government responsibility.

This isn’t deflection, but discussion. What say you now to the government stealing from one who works to give to one who doesn’t work?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

No “we” weren’t talking about government programs yesterday. I was talking about the responsibility of churches and christians to care for the poor and how we should preach about it from the Word, and you tried to derail the conversation and deflect into “but government!” even though the government wasn’t the topic of the conversation at all. So this is the 2nd consecutive week that you’ve attempted to derail the ongoing conversation with your own issue. And the tithe WAS for the government in the day of Israel. It’s hypocritical to claim that Deuteronomy 25 applies to secular government but… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, please read a bit more in the passages before bashing me. Taking care of the poor is the responsibility of churches and Christians. But don’t miss how scripture tells us to take care of the poor in your haste to correct America. Run to the Bible first. There must be understanding of how God told us to do things before we run off the cliff by missing building the bridge across the chasm first. Tithe  “that you shall take some of the first of all the produce of the ground which you bring in from your land that the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You ignored yet again that my question was about voting. Which isn’t in your passages at all. And again, I wasn’t discussing government either this week or next. You pursued that deflection on your own. If you wish to comment on the actual topic I was talking about last week, feel free to do so there. Or this week, feel free to do so here. In terms of your own pursuit here, Israeli government never had the secular/holy divide you are trying to insert into it. The law that governed the judges was the exact same law that governed the… Read more »

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“that you shall take some of the first of all the produce of the ground which you bring in from your land that the Lord your God gives you, and you shall put it in a basket and go to the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name. And you shall go to the priest who is in office at that time and say to him, ‘I declare today to the Lord my God that I have entered the land which the Lord swore to our fathers to give us.’ Then the priest shall take the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You ignored Deuteronomy 14 again.

I don’t understand your last paragraph at all. What do you mean I “don’t have an answer”? I’ve talked about this in excruciating detail on this blog and practiced it in real life myself.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, the last portion of Deuteronomy is concerning the tithe. -Eat the tithe at the place where the Lord has chosen -If the Lord’s chosen place is too far, exchange the tithe for silver, then go to the place the Lord chose, use the silver to buy the feast and eat it there. -On the third year, the tithe is used to store food for Levites, foreigners, the fatherless and widows so they may eat. All of this is the tithe. You want to talk about the poor. Where does the discussion began? -How should we take care of the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

No Dave, it doesn’t. Because in the initial conversation, I was talking about Scripture, very specifically, in terms of what Jesus commanded us as our personal responsibilities with wealth and possessions and how the early church carried that out in Acts, the letters of James and Paul, and beyond. And you completely ignored everything I brought from the Bible to instead pursue your own political agenda about government even though that had nothing to do with the discussion. And even now, you keep claiming that you want to go to Scripture, but instead of discussing the actual Scriptures you’re bringing… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Still flogging this dead horse?

You need to get more than a job — you need to get a life.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Sam Rutherford

So, you really don’t care if Wilson is not telling the truth as long as he tells you what you want to hear? How sad for you and great for him.

Since he has the habit of leading from the rear, it shouldn’t surprise you that he and his family have probably been fully vaccinated.

Sam Rutherford
Sam Rutherford
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

If you don’t think he is telling the truth, why would you frequent his blog? Are you trying to save us poor uninformed Christians from Mr. Wilson?

Also, it appears you may be making accusations that you cannot prove, which last time I checked was a violation of the 9th commandment.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Sam Rutherford

Sam, You may not like Jonathan’s style here, but he is providing a service. I have been a fan of Doug’s for a long time, and I am a previous parishioner of his. My family has benefited greatly from his teaching and ministry. But he has some serious intellectual deficiencies that often come to the fore, and which much of his audience may not be able to detect. When Doug talks numbers or science you should give it very very little weight. And many readers of this blog don’t have the training or experience to realize that. Much work has… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by demosthenes1d
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Meanwhile, brainwashed people like Ken B make idiotic claims such as “The virus is making sure that the extreme right are disproportionately losing their lives” — why, it’s the first politically-aware virus in history! — and you and your fellow co-religionist Jonathan the drippy contentious woman are dead silent. Kinda hard to take you seriously when you’re very selective in what you criticize. The “science”, such as it is, is FAR from settled on this matter. It doesn’t help when your lord and savior, Dr. Anthony “I Represent Science!” Fauci flip-flops all over the place. The more he mugs for… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago

 “The virus is making sure that the extreme right are disproportionately losing their lives” — why, it’s the first politically-aware virus in history! —”

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

 “The virus is making sure that the extreme right are disproportionately losing their lives” — why, it’s the first politically-aware virus in history! —” I think you’re nitpicking a bit here. If I said, “E.Coli has made sure that I will think twice before eating lettuce I didn’t wash myself,” I don’t think you would point out the idiocy of my apparently believing that E.Coli is a sentient entity with views on safe food handling. John Nolte recently wrote a Breitbart article titled “Data Confirms: Trump Counties are Dying to Own the Libs” just the other day. I think it… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jill Smith
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jilly, I think it would be clear to a reader much less intelligent than you that nobody is deciding not to get the clot shot to “own the libs”. That is childish logic. People are weighing the risks, which vary from person to person, and making the decision they judge best for themselves. Also from the article, “the virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people.” That’s 0.047%. In other words, the drooling idiots in charge locked down the country, destroyed the economy, and shredded the Constitution for a virus that is 99.953% survivable — at worst. Fear… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

I think even a “drooling idiot” could see that your 0.047% claim was solely for the 2 months from late June to late September. The total Covid death toll is over 500% higher than that. Not sure if that was a reading comprehension issue on your part or purposeful deception – both are believable.

And before you do your typical “fill a comment with insults to cover that you’re the one who messed up”, go back to last week and apologize for the 4 other times you made a false statement towards me that I proved wrong with citations.

https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/sincerely-yours-november.html#comments

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think even a “drooling idiot” could see that your 0.047% claim…”

Jonathan, read very carefully, because you need to get this through your thick skull:

I DID NOT MAKE THE CLAIM.

Yet again, you are the one who messed up. You often attribute to me claims I did not make. I’d call you an imbecile, but that would be an insult to imbeciles.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

These were your exact words:

In other words, the drooling idiots in charge locked down the country, destroyed the economy, and shredded the Constitution for a virus that is 99.953% survivable — at worst.

That was completely nonsensical. You took the # of people who died in 3 months and suggested everyone else had survived while ignoring all the people who died before and after that.

Also worth noting that no one this July/August/September was “destroying the economy” or “shredding the constitution”.

And note that I’m able to specifically back up my claims.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Are you naturally this stupid, or does it take work? “…your 0.047% claim…” Derived from the article, which stated, “the virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people.” 47/100,000*100 = 0.047%. 100%-0.047%=99.953% That’s simple math, Jonathan. If you’re having difficulty with the concept, there are remedial classes for that. “That was completely nonsensical.” Your pathetic handwaving is completely nonsensical. Resorting to such blatant fallacies is a sure sign of a weak argument — and a weak mind. “Also worth noting that no one this July/August/September was ‘destroying the economy’ or ‘shredding the constitution’. Worth noting is that, according… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

For the 2nd time in a row, you purposely omit “since late June” from that sentence, for an article written in September. Claiming the virus had a “survival rate of 99.953%” while only counting the people who died between the end of June and September is ridiculous.

And no, high inflation in October hasn’t “destroyed the economy”, and not even you believe that October’s inflation is primarily the result of anti-Covid measures in July. The main reason for inflation is because consumer spending is at record highs, which is sort of the opposite of what happens in a “destroyed economy”.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“For the 2nd time in a row, you purposely omit ‘since late June’…” So what? I know this is hard for you to understand, but it wasn’t germane to my point. I am under no obligation to mention it, your pathetic sniveling notwithstanding. It’s not my fault you’re sporting such a severe rectal-cranial inversion you can’t follow discussion threads. And for the third time in a row, the 99.953% number was derived FROM THE ARTICLE. Stop licking the windows of the short bus and pay attention. If you have a problem with the number, then take it up with the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

No, that number was not derived from the article. They listed the # who died over 3 months, they never represented that as meaning everyone else survived while just ignoring the other 15 months of the pandemic.

If I had quoted the deaths of just 3 months and claimed that everyone else had survived the virus, you would have been all over me claiming I was a liar. At first you might have admitted that you simply made a mistake, but the manner in which you continue to double down is showing your true colors to everyone.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No, that number was not derived from the article.”

For your next trick, you’ll deny that water is wet. From the article: “The virus has killed about 47 out of every 100,000 people.” –> 47/100,000*100 = 0.047%. 100%-0.047%=99.953%

Like I said before, the three month period isn’t germane to my point. You’re obsessing over a minor detail to the point where the men in the white coats should come and take you away.

Again, you’re not adding anything to this thread. It’s obnoxious. Knock it off.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

FP, yesterday there were 1,569 deaths from Covid. That means the virus is 99.99952% survivable!

Wait, that means in an hour there were only about 65 deaths. That means the virus is 99.99998% survivable!

Do you see how arbitrary and stupid those claims would be? You can’t just take the number of people who died in an arbitrarily small period and then claim everyone else survived the pandemic. You solely counted the deaths over 3 months and ignored the other 15 months of the pandemic when you claimed everyone else survived. You not fooling anyone, not even yourself.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Those claims are FROM THE ARTICLE. The time period was FROM THE ARTICLE.

It was THE ARTICLE that tried to make the case that people are dying all over the place just to “own the libs”. It was THE ARTICLE’S own numbers that undercut it’s premise — numbers which, by the way, were from the New York Times.

All I did was make an observation. So, why on God’s green earth are you obsessing over a minor point? Or is it that you enjoy being a drippy contentious woman?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Those claims were about the death toll over a specific small period, not the total. The author never removed that time period from the sentence like you did. He didn’t try to claim that everyone else had survived, like you did.

And your claim that the death toll was similar to the flu was a lie. Very few die of the flu during that same period.

Who are you trying to convince? Everyone can see who you are. You took the death toll during a tiny period and tried to falsely portray that those were the only people who died.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Again, because you’re not firing on all cylinders: The time period is immaterial to my point. If anything, the fact that THE ARTICLE included the time period further erodes their premise. “You took the death toll during a tiny period and tried to falsely portray that those were the only people who died.” And you wonder why your credibility is in the toilet. I looked at the article’s premise — which is the same as Kenny B’s premise — wherein the “unvaccinated” are dying to “own the libs”, and, using their own numbers, destroyed their premise. The time frame is… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

The article included the time period because the article was speaking about the events specifically within that time period. The article wasn’t trying to make false claims about the entire pandemic like you did.

Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“but the manner in which you continue to double down is showing your true colors to everyone.” This is something Jabathan has done dozens of times and never repented for. Get that plank out of your eye already and own up to it. And why don’t you go minister to your own people, like these God haters, who share many of your political views. You’ve trolled here long past your welcome. . Antifa protesters disrupt Texas college campus pro-life prayer vigil: ‘F— your God!’ – THE NEWS BEYOND DETROIT While you’re at it, maybe you can tell your local smash-and-grab… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

How the heck are smash-and-grab looters or Texas antifa “my people” any more than they’re your people?

If you wish to seriously follow God’s word, then feel free to join in on discussions of how to follow God’s word. I have them often here. Instead, you primarily appear concerned with pushing partisan political spin and trying to trash the character of other posters.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I can’t believe that you moved to Texas and joined Antifa without telling your friends!

I don’t think your preference for nonviolent resistance would go over all that well with the Punch-a-Nazi crowd. Or with your putative smash and grab comrades. They wouldn’t trust you even to carry the crowbars. What an exciting life he thinks you must lead.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jill Smith
Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Spud, when talk about violence, you have zero credibility. Your people attacked the US Capitol.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

It’s obvious the TCFKAfp doesn’t know how to express himself or make an argument without resorting to name calling and insults. When confronted with facts, he rants are raves like a spoiled 3 year old. You’re not going to be able to reason with a pseudo-intellectual who thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room.

But, in his sad, lonely kind of way, he’s actually funny.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago

If I had agreed with John Nolte’s basic premise–that red state conservatives have been manipulated into refusing vaccination in order to “own the libs”–I would not have clearly stated that I think the premise verges on paranoia. Did you miss that part? It is Nolte, not I, who appears to think that his fellow conservatives base their medical decisions on their political views. But the reason I referenced Nolte is that he, much farther to the political right of Ken B, also accepts the data that unvaccinated conservatives in the red states are dying at higher rates. Does this make… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jilly, I’m well aware that Nolte and Breitbart are considered conservative.

Nevertheless, it is an idiotic claim. However, I found it interesting that they undercut their own premise — indeed, they undercut the whole raison d’être for panicky jabbing, with the low death numbers.

Numbers which they got from the New York Times, BTW.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago

Nolte has been banging the same drum for several months now. His theory struck me as so loony that I wondered whether he actually believes it or is conducting his own psy-op. “If I can persuade my readers that the Dems deliberately politicized the virus and are tyrannically imposing vaccine mandates for the sole purpose of provoking resistance from red state conservatives, maybe then they’ll agree to go get vaccinated.” I don’t think he’s quite worked it out that he can’t claim the Dems are succeeding in this extraordinarily evil scheme without simultaneously revealing that he thinks his readers are… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Another problem with Nolte’s premise is that those who’ve chosen not to take the shot don’t fit neatly within ideological lines. For example, a larger proportion of blacks and PhDs have declined the shot — not exactly bastions of rock-ribbed conservatism there.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago

I’ve read discussions on liberal comment boards. I have noticed that young people in particular don’t oppose getting the shot because they think it’s unsafe, let alone because they distrust the government’s intentions. They’re just not convinced that they need it. I’ve been mildly curious about the Malibu Moms, extraordinarily rich liberals who, long before COVID, have demand exemptions for their kids because they think every vaccine is toxic–even for polio and tetanus. Some of them do insist on vaccination for their live-in Salvadoran nannies which I think undermines their case for exemption on philosophical grounds! “Safe for the peasants… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jilly, This is why I like you. We’re having a civil discussion here. No need for hostilities because no one’s trying for silly gotchas. Meaningful contributions are happening on both sides. You mentioned that young people are not convinced that they need the shot. According to the CDC (if their numbers are to be believed), the total number of COVID deaths from 1/1/2020 to 12/4/2021 (almost a two year period) for those aged 18-29 years is 4,700. That’s right: Four thousand, seven hundred. Over a 23-month period. As a point of comparison, all-cause deaths for the same group over the… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

FP is only about half right. I suppose that’s a slight improvement.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-07-27/whos-most-likely-to-refuse-a-covid-vaccine

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

As usual, I’m all the way right. From ABC News, “Why some US Blacks and Latinos remain COVID-19 ‘vaccine deliberate'” [‘vaccine deliberate’ being nothing more than a silly euphemism for ‘vaccine hesitant’], Sept 7, 2021: Much has been made about people of color being hesitant to get a COVID-19 vaccine. Numbers have shown that Black and Latino vaccination rates are lagging behind those of white people in America.About 40% of Black people and 45% of Latinos have been at least partially vaccinated as of Aug. 16, compared to 50% of white people, according to the latest data by the Kaiser… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, He is half right, black people are much more likely to be vaccine hesitant (though the gap has closed somewhat). But the idea that PhD are most hesitant is BS. That was based on Facebook poll with self assigned education status and the internal data is a completel mess. Also, PhD are such a small fraction of the population that they are hard to measure unless you are targeting them with a study. What we do know is that geographic areas go up in vaxx rate as years of education go up. Years of college is the second strongest… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, I’m laughing so hard my eyes are watering. You and Will can’t even agree on which half I’m right about.

Which just goes to show that I’m completely right.

Last edited 9 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago

Believe what you want, but if you believe crappy poll results like this you will believe anything. It has been picked apart by plenty of people.

https://coronavirus.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-PhDs-are-the-most-vaccine-resistant-group-https-www-nationalreview-com-corner-the-most-vaccine-hesita-1

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, watching you and Willie trip all over each other to deny credit where it’s due is extremely entertaining. Your clownish antics never fail to amuse.

But I gotta ask: When did you go fully post-truth? Go back and read what I wrote. I never claimed PhDs are the most vaccine-resistant group. That came from Willie’s link.

You, Jonathan, and Willie are so blinded by partisan hate that you can’t even attribute claims properly. But if you want me to continue to laugh at your ineptitude, then please, by all means, keep going.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago

Your word games and unrelenting hostility are tiresome. I also never claimed, nor disputed, that PhDs were the “most vaccine-resistant group.”

I was responding to your claim that: “larger proportion of blacks and PhDs have declined the shot”

There is no evidence that this is true, and the evidence that is available indicates that it is very likely to be false.

Have a nice evening!

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo: “I also never claimed, nor disputed, that PhDs were the ‘most vaccine-resistant group.'” Never said you claimed it. But you did say, “But the idea that PhD are most hesitant is BS.” Looks like disputing that particular claim to me. And it wasn’t even my claim! It’d be nice if you’d track with the conversation. Unrelenting hostility. Ha! That line about going “fully post-truth” came straight from you, Demo. Perhaps if you were more fair-minded towards those with whom you disagree politically, you might see a little less of your own hostility thrown back at you. You’ll note that… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

The gap has narrowed, but the higher vaxx rate is mostly among black men over the age of 40, at least in Los Angeles. As of a month ago, only 54% of black men of all ages had received at least one dose. Among Asian men, it’s 80%. For Hispanic men, it’s 61% and for white men it’s 72%. I couldn’t quickly find today’s numbers, but I expect the vaxx mandate might have raised the rates. I’ve talked to people who said they were holding off until the mandate kicked, after which they would longer be able to go out… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jill Smith
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, as a note, if you look at the various court cases in play right now, the courts are leaning toward any mandatory jab as unconstitutional.

Maybe, the decisions will actually follow our US Constitution and state constitutions as mandatory jabs are not anywhere close to being constitutional.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Do you think Washington mandated vaccines for his troops one year and then thought it was a violation of basic rights that needed to be curtailed the next? The constitutionality of vaccine mandates in general was already tested and confirmed by the courts in 1905 and 1922.

https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/current-constitutional-issues-related-to-vaccine-mandates

That does not, of course, mean that every mandate is legit. But even Pastor Wilson said before the pandemic that vaccine mandates and forcing the unvaccinated to follow certain rules is not tyranny.

Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago

This is the totalitarian nightmare Ken B. supports. With “Christians” like this, who needs Satanists?
The Vaccine Moment, part one – by Paul Kingsnorth (substack.com)

And “contentious women” is right. Diva and Jabathan watch each other’s back like a couple of….well, I won’t go there.

Last edited 9 months ago by C Herrera
Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Where do you get the idea that I support totalitarianism? Being to the left of Trump does not make you a communist. With “Christians” like this, who needs Satanists? Satan is the accuser of the brethren, which is what you are doing here. Ironic. I read your link. There is no intention of introducing forced vaccination (Impfzwang) as the article claimed, but a duty to be vaccinated (Impfpflicht). No-one is going to be grabbed by the police, tied to a chair and vaccinated. The sanctions to be used are fines, which may lead to prison in Austria. The extra restrictions… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Sam Rutherford

Sam, why do I frequent this blog? Because I find it unconscionable that someone who claims to be a pastor would day after day, year after year, post misinformation. Doubly so for matters of life and death. He needs pushback on things he writes.

Suppositions are not the same as accusations. Look it up.

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

And gossiping Will is gossiping Will.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, if spreading negative claims about someone every chance you get isn’t gossiping, then what is? You’re just arbitrarily slurring him almost every week he posts and you don’t even provide context or evidence, you just throw out the slur.

It’s ironic that in your efforts to constantly smear Will, you’ve settled on performing the exact action you accuse him of.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I point out that Will is a gossiper because he is. If you remember, he pushed web sites that are known to be inaccurate concerning what really occurs in Moscow. He calls them truthful, which they are not. When you pass on juicy tidbits to confuse or muddy the situation, you are gossiping. “So, you really don’t care if Wilson is not telling the truth as long as he tells you what you want to hear? How sad for you and great for him.” Will Jonathan, Will is one who disrupts using gossip. And no, pointing out that Will… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

Just because you say they are “untruthful tidbits”, doesn’t make it so. As Jonathan and others have pointed out, you have a poor record when it comes to facts. So much so, that one might come to the conclusion that either you are unable to discern fact from fiction, or you are deliberately doing the very thing you accuse me of doing.

Since you brought it up, I would welcome your rebuttal to moscowid’s documented accounts of Wilson’s behavior.

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, when you visit Moscow, let me know and we will sit down and deconstruct the falsehoods in that particular website. In the same manner that Pravda mixed fact and fiction, that website does the same.

Visit Moscow and I will show you the documents that are not published. Plan for several days to see how the truth was destroyed. That is if you are really concerned with truth rather than falsehoods.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, why should I have to visit you in Moscow so you can show me these “unpublished documents”? Given your propensity for posting unfounded claims, that’s a dodge that leads me to think that you really don’t have any secret documents that refutes moscowid’s evidence. Over the past weeks you have called me gossiper multiple times and made outrageous claims on multiple subjects without a shred of evidence to back them up. That does not engender confidence it your ability to be truthful. If you are really serious, then share these secret documents right here in the comment section. Your… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, because there is too much to post in a comment section.

Come to Moscow. I take care of the coffee and the meals.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, your creditability is so suspect, that if I lived the next town over, I wouldn’t waste my time visiting with you. I can imagine the reams of paper that you have collected are more of the same bunk you have been commenting on for years. For the love of Doug, please get some help.

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Claiming “But I can say it because he is!” is the refuge of the gossiper. Most gossipers believe what they’re saying is true when they say it.

You try to hurt Will’s reputation with some version of “Will is a gossiper!” every week that he posts, without context or connection to the topic. If you understood why gossip is wrong and hate it as much as you claim, why would you act that way?

p.s. – do you view your own false allegations about Clinton to be different? Or was that gossip okay, because you thought it was true?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you didn’t watch the Rose Garden speech. I did.

That is not a false allegation.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

The “Rose Garden” speech doesn’t exist, Dave. You can’t claim there was a national broadcast of the president having a deeply embarrassing moment on television in the 1990s and yet Dave from Moscow is the only one who ever saw it, with zero record of the event in any conservative media anywhere.

It was an internet joke you read so many times that you began to believe it yourself. The joke has been debunked in numerous places, and not one Republican in government or media has come forward to dispute that.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“. . . since I have a degree in biophysics, have worked in the field, and have published papers in both science and education including one I’m currently working on. I work with data almost every day.” Jonathan below Why should I believe your statement? Perhaps you just made it up to bolster your opinions. After all, you pontificate and can’t follow a worldly discussion to the end or for that matter defend scripture in a brotherly manner. Jonathan, you lack Christian charity. You claim that we should love our brothers, yet you can’t believe an eye witness. As for… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, why are you challenging my credentials, and not Cherrera’s, considering it was he who originally claimed he had expertise and I didn’t? If you wish I’ll send a picture of my transcript to one of the other commenters or give a short description of an obscure topic in biophysics (like obtaining subsurface optical imagery of embryotic development inside the egg), but I doubt you actually care.

Double-standard much?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I am pointing out your uncharitable manners. Why should I believe your claims of degrees, articles published and years of work in a particular field? Why? You said you had all those things. Why should anyone believe you?

My credibility is fine and I have a good name. I have decades of honest work so that even the individuals who hate me for telling the truth or pointing out problems or illegal activity will say that I trustworthy.

Jonathan, when you disregard other Christian’s posts in the manner you do, you show extreme arrogance and extreme uncharitable manners.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You don’t have to believe anything I say. But if you really want I’ll email Jilly a copy of my transcript or an article my university published about my career or anything else you consider proof, if that would get you to stop ranting about a meaningless point.

And Dave, it’s not just me, literally no one here believes you saw Clinton give a national speech where he said he would eliminate cattle guards to save money. Because everyone other than you knows that it’s an internet joke and the speech never existed.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Here’s another conservative source, Dave:

the Billings Gazette, in a spectacular spoof, created the story of how President Clinton, incensed by opposition to his stand on grazing, learned there were 100,000 cattle guards in the state of Colorado…

Enthusiastic editors, entranced by the story and either unwilling or uninterested in verifying the facts, reported the revelation as accurate. In truth, there is no evidence President Clinton ever ordered the firing of the cattle guards, a discovery which almost is disappointing.

But then, as often happens with gossip and tall tales, fact generally is a sorry substitute for fiction.

https://www.eastoregonian.com/george-murdock-jpg/image_6bd0cffa-07f1-11ea-8535-efea51c2ff21.html

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Incredibly, you can look online and read 50 different versions of the joke, and NONE of them involve Clinton giving a speech at the Rose Garden on C-SPAN. In the versions that get passed around, he went to Bruce Babbitt and ordered him to do it (who would have known better, being from a ranching family and all).

So the stuff about it being on TV, taking place at the Rose Garden, C-SPAN making excuses and cutting away to other programming….all of that was made up in your own imagination to give weight to the story.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

And refusing to accept an obvious falsehood just because someone claims to be an eyewitness isn’t “lacking Christian charity”, it’s exhibiting basic discernment. You’re not claiming to have witnessed a private event, you’re claiming that President Clinton made a deeply embarrassing speech about “cattle guards” on national television. And yes, the fact-checkers all point out that it’s just an urban legend that has been repeated for multiple presidents, but I don’t need the fact-checkers to know you’re wrong. All I need is that NOT A SINGLE RIGHT-WING MEDIA OUTLET OR POLITICIAN made fun of the speech at the time. If… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Here’s one link you could have used Dave, pointing out Obama and Biden have been the butt of the same joke:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/nation-world/2010/12/20/fact-check-obama-calls-firing-50000-inanimate-cattle-guards/15920950007/

“The Pinedale Roundup, Pinedale, Wyo., in its Feb. 16 edition became the latest newspaper in the Intermountain West to fall for a joke originated in the Billings Gazette last fall. Gary Svee, opinion editor for the Billings Gazette, said the paper ran the item last year in a section reserved each Friday for puns and jokes.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I think it says something of a level of arrogance that Dave won’t just admit that he fell for an internet joke, but has doubled-down for four years insisting he saw the event live and even changing multiple aspects of the original joke in ways that are completely unique to Dave from Moscow and not known anywhere else on Earth. And it says a lot about what we can trust of Dave’s eyewitness claims, which he repeatedly uses to contradict the reality every else can verify for themselves. Dave’s original claim: Finally, Jonathan is showing his true colors that cannot… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m wondering if Dave has some some serious mental issues.

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I see that James White had a dividing line taken down by YT due to its content. You could still hear it at White’s site, so the censorship is not absolute. I listened to it. He was talking nonsense about the vaccines again. He compared Fauci to Joseph Mengele, the notorious doctor at Auschwitz. He is still thinking of the Austrian govt in terms of Hitler’s Reich, because police are checking the population are carrying out the hygiene rules. Now when someone does that, you know there is a deeper problem at work than legitimate questioning of govt covid policy,… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

He compared Fauci to Joseph Mengele…”

I’m sure when your comrades on the left endlessly compared Trump to Hitler, you were right there, admonishing them that there is a “deeper problem at work than legitimate questioning of government policy”, weren’t you Ken B?

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

Comparisons to Hitler, if serious, are usually silly. I would compare Trump with Mussolini …

I am not of the political left. The pandemic is primarily a medical issue and not one of party politics.

When you see on the telly rightist anti-vaxxers crowding around a government minister’s private house, with a view to intimidation, in a torch light procession, something invented by Hitler’s SA, you know James White and those who comment like him have lost the plot.

The virus is making sure that the extreme right are disproportionately losing their lives.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

I would compare Trump with Mussolini…”

Now when someone does that, you know there is a deeper problem at work than legitimate questioning of govt covid policy.

And yes, you are of the political left. Your own words betray you: “When you see… rightist anti-vaxxers”, “the virus is making sure that the extreme right are disproportionately losing their lives.”

Ergo, this pandemic is primarily a political issue, as you yourself amply demonstrated.

How much are they paying you to sell fear and panic?

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

i) Comparing Trump to Mussolini was a tad tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely. ii) You have failed to notice the word extreme when I am taking about ‘right-wing anti-vaxxers’. Sundry fascists, neo-Nazis, Reichsbürger. Haters of immigrants. Increasingly radical and violent. Not talking about bog-standard social conservatives here. iii) The 30% of the population not vaccinated includes all children under 12. It’s about 20% of adults, including those who are genuinely scared of being vaccinated, and those who are making a political statement against the state. They are asserting their right to ignore completely all the hygiene rules designed to keep the… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

“You have failed to notice the word extreme…“ Dude, there’s a transcript. I suggest you go back and read it. Upon rereading — this time, for comprehension — you will discover I did not leave that word out when quoting you. “…Sundry fascists, neo-Nazis, Reichsbürger. Haters of immigrants. Increasingly radical and violent.” In other words, people that exist only inside your fevered imagination. Meanwhile, out here in Realville, the far left is on a massive power trip locking people down, taking away freedoms, sending people into camps, dehumanizing people, creating a second-class citizenry, and are generally trying to make life as miserable… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

“Comparing Trump to Mussolini was a tad tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely.” Just when you think Kenny B. can’t get any more asinine. You obviously don’t understand fascism in the least (or you’d be comparing Biden to Mussolini). This is almost as bad as your takes on Eph. 5 and Rom. 13, which completely miss which passage is highly-nuanced with many counterexamples…and which is a clear command. Like Jonathan, your positions comport very well with the culture and BBC, making you the kind of safe “Christian” they love. But beware what God says about the lukewarm and cowardly in the Book… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by C Herrera
Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

How much are they paying you to sell fear and panic? You repeatedly make this claim to my spreading fear and panic. So far in commenting on the virus I have said it is little danger to children, about 30% adults suffer no symptoms, up to 90% will not have a serious illness, that vaccination reduces the spread by about 70% and will protect extremely well against serious illness. The death rate is more amongst the elderly and those with pre-conditions. I wouldn’t call that spreading panic. Now it is true that the extreme right unvaccinated are paying a high… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Now it is true that the extreme right unvaccinated are paying a high price for their folly…”

No, they’re not. The article Jilly linked, entitled “Data Confirms: Trump Counties are Dying to Own the Libs” undercuts its own premise with the 0.047% (47 out of 100,000) death rate. That’s a death rate similar to the flu.

Besides, why would “the extreme right unvaccinated” pay any higher a price than “the extreme left unvaccinated”?

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

No, they’re not. The article Jilly linked, entitled “Data Confirms: Trump Counties are Dying to Own the Libs” … I am talking about the extreme right in central Europe, specifically the German-speaking countries. They are the ones who are more likely to become infected and hence experience serious illness or death from the virus. They won’t take advantage of the means to stop this happening. Unlike those with genuine, if ungrounded fears of vaccination, they are making a political statement. A study has recently shown Brexiteers are more likely to die from the virus, I would think for much the… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Yup, most politically-aware virus in history.

Thanks for the laugh.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

And that would be another lie. You are cherry-picking the Covid deaths of a single summer. The total summer flu deaths have NEVER been close to that in our lifetime.

If you go by full-year totals, the average estimated flu deaths in a year (a number far higher than the actual counted deaths), is ~36,000 per year. In the 20 months since March 2020 there have been 794,000 counted Covid deaths, and the estimated deaths would be far higher.

If you think 36,000/year is similar to over 400,000/year, you shouldn’t go anywhere near numbers.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

One of us has worked with data for a living, and it ain’t you. You continue to quote death count data like it’s straight truth from the Gosp…I mean WaPo, but there have been myriad issues with “death counts” from the beginning. I wouldn’t base any conclusions on the numbers being thrown around, but then again I’m a stickler for the truth. Many died from cancer, heart disease, drug abuse, or waiting too long for organ transplants or necessary surgeries who tested positive. Of course, hospitals happily played along with these being “Covid deaths” thanks to the gov’t often picking… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

And that would be yet another falsehood, since I have a degree in biophysics, have worked in the field, and have published papers in both science and education including one I’m currently working on. I work with data almost every day.

And in terms of covid death counts, as I and several others have pointed out mulitple times the excess death counts and timing show the actual death toll is almost certainly far higher than the “official” toll. And sorry but no, there is no one with the power to fabricate total excess deaths.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

And in terms of covid death counts, as I and several others have pointed out multiple times, the excess death counts and timing show the actual death toll is almost certainly far lower than the “official” toll.

We can play this game all day, Drippy.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I have come to the conclusion that you are actively working at being stupid. You could keep your big mouth shut, and simply be thought the fool, but no, you go and open it and remove all doubt. That takes work. And you have no credibility. Every time you scream and point the finger through the window of the short bus, accusing me of lying, I laugh heartily. Now, is there a reason you and Kenny B. won’t address my question? Here, I’ll restate it so you know the context of what it is we’re discussing: Why would “the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

I didn’t know I was responsible for answering random questions you ask Will. But the answer is obvious – anyone who remains unvaccinated risks paying the price, but overall there are many more unvaccinated on the right than on the left.

Unvaccinated Adults are Now More Than Three Times as Likely to Lean Republican than Democratic

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/press-release/unvaccinated-adults-are-now-more-than-three-times-as-likely-to-lean-republican-than-democratic/

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“I didn’t know I was responsible for answering random questions you ask Will.” That was a question I asked Ken B, and it was in the context of his claim. I even quoted his claim. Criminy, Drippy, can’t you even get that right? And as for your article, you’re missing the plot yet again. Ken B’s claim is that the “the extreme right unvaccinated” is paying a high price for their “folly”. Your article does nothing to show that “the extreme right unvaccinated” are paying a high price, let alone that remaining pureblood is “folly”. By the way, that “shrinking… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

I am not a Democrat. Yet another falsehood to add to your long list.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Since you demanded an answer from me and I complied, can you give a simple answer to those questions that you have repeatedly dodged?

I’ve asked you numerous times – are you a Bible-believing Christian? Do you go to a church? Or are you here just to push far-right propaganda and spew insults?

Because you’re repeatedly insulting people in the most demeaning language, and you work hard to push the fringe of right-wing talking points, but I have seen little evidence that you’re interested in the Bible or in the Christian life.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You didn’t answer the question. Therefore, you didn’t comply.

Because you’re repeatedly insulting people in the most demeaning language, and you work hard to push the fringe of left-wing talking points, but I have seen little evidence that you’re interested in the Bible or in the Christian life.

Like I said, we can play this game all day, Drippy.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Why are you so afraid of answering the question as to whether you are a Bible-believing Christian who goes to church? What could it possibly harm by answering the question? Why do you just let it hang every time I ask, while feeling perfectly fine demanding I answer your questions?

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’ve asked you numerous times – are you [fp] a Bible-believing Christian? Do you go to a church? Or are you here just to push far-right propaganda …

I am willing to stand corrected, but I fear extreme right-wing politics and hyper-individualism are fp’s religion and his God.

Last edited 9 months ago by Ken B
Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

Why would “the extreme right unvaccinated” pay any higher a price than “the extreme left unvaccinated”?

I have never made that claim. What I said was

Now it is true that the extreme right unvaccinated are paying a high price for their folly, …

You quoted that yourself! Now let me give you a clue: if the unvaccinated were divided equally between the extreme right and left, then the infections, illness and death would be equally spead between them. But the majority of the unvaccinated who are so for political reasons belong to the extreme right, so it follows …

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, TCFKAfp is not interested in discussions. He gets his rocks off by attempting to incite – without proof. It’s the last refuge of cowards. I suggest you leave him to his own sniveling devices.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, the pandemic is extremely political. In fact it is so political that the outspoken politicians in favor of the masks wear them all the time, no matter where they are — as long as a camera is focused on them.

California’s Governor Newsome is a strong believer in masks. It looks like a funny thing happened on the way to the beach.

NewsomeCabo_NoEmergency.png
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I wouldn’t wear a mask outdoors on the beach when no one other than my family was within 20 feet either. Few people would and literally no one is recommending that.

Is your complaint that he sets an example of wearing a mask when he’s doing public events? Which is a problem because…..why? Don’t all people do certain things more rigorously when they’re trying to set an example even in situations where it’s not absolutely necessary?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

At the height of the lockdown here, masks were required outdoors only if you were walking/jogging or whatever with people outside your own household, or if you were in prolonged contact with strangers–like sitting on a bus bench. Mask wearers have been ridiculed for wearing them in the car–but when I did that, it was because I was running errands and I didn’t want to handle my mask unnecessarily on short trips. What I do find funny is that, even now, I see quite a few joggers still wearing masks. The reported lack of oxygen doesn’t seem to slow them… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Quite some time ago, Newsom was photographed at a birthday party at the most expensive restaurant in California, the French Laundry. He was in prolonged direct contact with people outside his own household, and he was unmasked. This caused a substantial dip in popularity and helped fueled the recall.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Yes, I remember that – that and several other similar things other politicians did were purely idiotic.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Even though compliance oozes through my Canadian veins like maple syrup, I too have had my moments. When ordered by the County to quarantine in areas of the house as far as possible from my dear COVID-struck daughter, I said something unladylike and took up her next batch of Advil and avocado toast. Did they think somebody’s mother was going to crack the door and toss it to her like feeding time at the zoo? Who else was going to bathe her forehead and change those sweat-drenched sheet? But I made sure that nobody else came near me. I think… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jill Smith
Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

The pandemic ought not to be party political.

Going by the picture you posted, it looks like some are determined to exercise their right to bare arms …

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, the problem is that Newsome is the Governor of California. He imposed severe restrictions on individuals inside it’s borders. This is not the first time Newsome has been caught in the SARS CoV-2 cookie jar disregarding the demands that he would have the surfs severely beaten for disobeying. If you noticed in the UK news an MP was found at a large party with out masks, social distancing or any of the other UK demands for the peasants. Health care should not be political. But it is. Money talks and the rules are for you and me but not… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I agree about the hypocrisy. In the UK Conservative advisors and cabinet ministers have blatantly broken the rules they themselves have imposed. Lucrative government contracts going to party donors and friends. In Germany three Conservative MP’s made personal gain (a lot!) out of the corona pandemic. They were booted out in short order, but may have cost the Conservatives the general election. You cannot blame people for thinking ‘if they don’t keep the rules why should I’, but this misses the point of whether the rules actually curtail the virus from getting out of control. I have some scepticism about… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Ken B
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, the tyranny is obvious to those who will sit back with a beverage of their choice and actually think. The SARS CoV-2 panic is similar to the 1929 world wide depression which was strengthened and prolonged by government intervention trying to get the thing under control. Points such as operations postponed are red herrings tossed out to obfuscate what is going on and those who can’t look behind the curtain are drawn in. I still maintain that the majority of tyrannical wartime restrictions Churchill and FDR imposed on the UK and US were unnecessary. In this present mess, the… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I cannot agree that postponed operations are a red herring, I have friends in England who have lost relatives because of this. And the reason for the discontinuation of treatment was covid overload. It’s now happening in Germany and other parts of central Europe. It happened in the southern parts of Europe nearer the beginning of the pandemic. I don’t know much about wartime restrictions in the States, but I cannot imagine they were particularly severe, there was no direct threat. Churchill had no choice but to impose huge restrictions on liberty or else face losing the war. You could… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Since the MP in question was conservative, as are the UK politicians imposing those strict rules, why do you think it is “political”?

Many politicians both liberal and conservative across the world have imposed mask mandates, lockdowns, etc. And they people sometimes act like they’re above the law and violate their own rules, the same way some such people break traffic laws or drink and drive.

That doesn’t make traffic laws or DUIs “political”, it just means that power is quite corrupting and many folk who gain power don’t act as if they believe the rules apply to them.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, your degree and work in biophysics should tell you that everyday and N95 masks may catch globules but do not actually stop the virus transmission. Masks are theater for the common folks and even the WHO said so. If you had understanding in operations, you would understand house arrest for the healthy is a tyrannical measure which doesn’t work. If you had understanding in politics, you would understand that there is a huge difference between traffic laws and laws which destroy businesses and give money to favored groups. The worldwide SARS CoV-2 response is political and is covering a… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You probably shouldn’t go around declaring to people with much more experience in a field than yourself what they should and shouldn’t know. Both my experience in biophysics (including two courses in microbiology which included projects in epidemiology), the papers I’ve read, and every medical professional I know personally states that two-way mask wearing (by both the potential transmitter and the potential recipient) works to reduce viral transmission.

Nowhere in America has imposed house arrest for the healthy. I already detailed which aspects of “lockdowns” I do and don’t support earlier.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Now there’s a laugh. You really think you’re going to convince people that masks reduce viral transmission by appealing to authority — and an incredibly small set at that — with one of the “authorities” being yourself? You list as your “experience” as taking a couple of college courses. Is this seriously the “much more” experience to which you’re referring? Anyone can take a college class or two. Not very impressive.  There aren’t many papers claiming that masks reduce viral transmission, and the ones that try point out that masks catch droplets (duh!). Whoop-de-do. Catching droplets does not translate to… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago

Kinda hard to make the case that masks work when the infection rate shoots right up after your mandate has gone into effect.

Couldn’t be because there is a time lapse between the implementation of mandates and restrictions and the consequent affect on the infection rate? Usually about a fortnight.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

It was a response to Dave, I appealed to literally the exact thing that Dave appealed to. If you don’t like the measure and think it’s a fallacy, take it up with him.

Your 3rd paragraph is mostly wrong, but seeing how many obviously wrong things you’ve been willing to say and how little you care when proven demonstrably wrong, I find it quite likely that you know you’re wrong and just don’t care.

Why are you still avoiding my question about whether you’re a Bible-believing Christian who goes to Church?

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Idaho declared house arrest with a few exceptions such as grocery shopping. “The stay-home order requires citizens to self-isolate at home if you can, not just if you are sick.” Governor Little

Yes, house arrest was foisted upon us.

If you are sifting gravel through a 3 inch mesh, will a 1 inch stone fall through the mesh?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I was not around in March 2020, so I didn’t experience that particular moment personally. But I don’t know a single person who stated they were under house arrest. You could still leave your home whenever you wanted, go shopping anywhere, go to family and friend’s homes as well, correct? Was anyone ever arrested for leaving their home? If not, how can you claim it was “house arrest”? And if you believe viruses are like stones and masks are a mesh you’re already misguided. For a more apt comparison, hang a pair of sheets from a line and then shoot… Read more »

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, how much water goes through sheets when they are shot with a fire hose rather than a spray bottle? How much water goes around the sheets if they aren’t properly attached to the line and if the hose is directed at the edge of the sheet? That is a poor example and is for those who have not studied filtration versus deadly threats. The point is that the virus particles travel around, through and out of the mask. That is basic virology. This is why guys working in virus labs wear full face masks with air provided or they… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

If you think breathing is more like fire hose pressure as opposed to spray bottle pressure, then this conversation is a waste of time. A spray bottle is a much better example than a fire hose.

And your statements about AIDS are nonsensical. I was in elementary school when AIDS broke out, we had an HIV-positive student in our school, and we were never told you could get AIDS from shaking his hand or being in the same room as him.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Every time Dave mentions the term basic virology, I can’t help but smile and roll my eyes at the inflated view he has of his knowledge. This has been going on for over a year and he’s yet to get it right once.

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Today I happened to see a list on TV of corona myths, and one of them was that masks don’t do anything to prevent infection. They do not protect absolutely, although no-one ever claims that as far as I know, but they do reduce the chance of infection and even more of it being serious.

This has been studied in depth by the Max Planck Institute and the German Space Agency.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, I am one of those mask skeptics. Its not that I doubt that two people wearing well-fitted masks that effectively filter will reduce transmission. I think it will, but in the wild thus is rarely what we see. Studies that are conducted in the wild typically show very poor results. I think masks (as used) may reduce transmission by something like 2-15% which may be meaningful in some situations, but I wouldn’t put too much personal weight on it, and I think making masking into a cultural/status issue has been obscene (by left and right). Also, I don’t believe… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Why don’t you believe the low viral load theory? I haven’t read the research recently, but during the first few months of the pandemic I read up on the research to date and bounced some questions about it off of a couple epidemiologists I know and it seemed solid, that both the initial viral load and the “landing” spot of those viruses could have an impact of case severity.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

What do you consider the solid “in the wild” research that leads you to that conclusion? So far when I’ve seen people claim research shows that average people wearing masks don’t work well, they rely on research where only the recipient is wearing and not the transmitter. And they tend to use experiments on either end of an extreme – either ones in which the wearers spend their entire work day in infected hospital rooms that are going to be heavily saturated with viruses (and thus are likely to get permeated with viral exposure unless they have a very good… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Of course they protect, though nothing’s 100%. Otherwise healthcare workers would never put them on. I’ll never understand the antivaxxers or the antimask crowd. It must be nice for them to choose whatever set of “facts” they want to believe.

Same goes for those evangelicals & fundies who fell at the feet of Trump. Especially after telling the rest of us for years how righteous they are.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you were in elementary school while I was already working. We had to know filter sizes, what elements, chemicals, viruses, or radioactive materials and particles would pass through our filters and what percentage of success might be achieved to kill the enemy or to protect others. If everyone wearing a mask defeats a virus by less than an extremely high percentage (think 80-90%), it is not acceptable to impose governmental restrictions on our lives. Percentage of successful survival in the general population was a US Civil Defense guiding light. With SARS CoV-2, a virus with approximately a 1% kill… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

What are you basing the claim that “If everyone wearing a mask defeats a virus by less than an extremely high percentage (think 80-90%), it is not acceptable to impose governmental restrictions on our lives.”?

Seat belts reduce the risk of death in a car accident by 45%. Air bags, just 34%. There are constantly recalls for safety issues that only lead to a handful of deaths. So claiming that there needs to be 80-90% efficacy in order to require something as simple as wearing a mask is baseless.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, where is evidence for these wild claims?

SARS CoV-2 is being pimped just like AIDS was pimped in the 80s. You can get AIDS by being in the same room as an infected person. You can get AIDS by shaking hands with someone. Years later, after the panic, we found out differently. 

You were in elementary school and missed all the ads, public information posters, and other information about how easy it was to get AIDS from casual contact.

So kids were being taught that AIDS was harmless from casual contact, but you claim adults were being taught something different?

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Actually, here is easy proof that you’re completely off-base. When I was a kid everyone watched the Ryan White story, it was famous. Well the ENTIRE Ryan White story is about how the experts kept saying that AIDS couldn’t be transmitted by casual contact, but ignorant local officials wouldn’t listen. It’s a matter of public record – all the doctors, the Board of Health, the Department of Education, the CDC, they all said it was safe for Ryan to go to school. That’s all a matter of public court records. And this is 1984-1986 we’re talking about. If you want… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

Let me put this a mildly as I can. You are a kook.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Also, Pastor Wilson recommending thriller novelist and marijuana alarmist turned “pandemic expert” Alex Berenson as an authority was amusing. He gets virtually everything demonstrably wrong, over and over again.

The Pandemic’s Wrongest Man
In a crowded field of wrongness, one person stands out: Alex Berenson.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/pandemics-wrongest-man/618475/

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Fauci has been wrong more than anyone else and it’s not even close. And the Atlantic? The elitist magazine that pseudo-intellectuals read to impress each other? Well, no surprise there. Read trash and you’ll think trash thoughts, or GIGO as they used to say.
Ghislaine and Laurene | The Radio Patriot

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

If you think “Fauci has been wrong more than anyone else and it’s not even close”, there’s no point in having a discussion here. No one has been perfect (nor should be expected to be in a novel epidemic), but Fauci has been better than most even if you’re only looking at the prominent experts and ignoring the crackpots (and present company) for the moment.

If you think Fauci has been the most wrong by some huge margin, who do you think has been the most right?

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
9 months ago

Some comment sections have the ability to collapse a thread that is not of interest. It is a really helpful feature.

Will
Will
9 months ago

That comes in handy for folks who want to stick their heads in the sand.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Idaho: 2,225 deaths/million
Oregon: 1,249 deaths/million
Washington: 1,248 deaths/million

I know that’s not of interest to anyone here, but I would prefer that Pastor Wilson at least acknowledge that he cares nothing for the deaths, rather than continuously misleading people regarding them.

From the beginning of the pandemic, Pastor Wilson claimed the mass deaths wouldn’t happen, then falsely argued they didn’t happen, and over and over muddies the waters suggesting that their degree is irrelevant and debasing how much masks/lockdowns/vaccines would help if at all. The actions of Pastor Wilson and people like him are reflected in those #’s above.

Last edited 9 months ago by Jonathan
Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

This is really quite obnoxious. If anyone wanted to interact with your arguments about COVID, they could do so above. This comment from you is tantamount to an acknowledgement that you are intentionally trying to disrupt the comment section.

Will
Will
9 months ago

Geez, don’t read his comments and certainly don’t respond. I promise it won’t hurt Jonathan’s feeling one bit. But if you do read his comments, watch out, you just might learn something.

Will
Will
9 months ago

So, Nathan, if you’re not interested in the Covid deaths of 3,900+ Idahoans, please do collapse this thread and go back to sleep. That’s exactly what Wilson is counting on.

J.F. Martin
J.F. Martin
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Hi Will, I’m very interested in the 3,900+ deaths, and I wish there was more data to make informed decisions about them. I work for a manufacturing plant in Southern Idaho, and look at the COVID-19 dashboard daily to see what’s happening in my county, Health District, and state. I’m in the camp that I wish no one would die…but when you look at the statistics (https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/idaho.division.of.public.health/viz/DPHIdahoCOVID-19Dashboard/Home) I don’t see public policy making good use of them. I’ve also not compared to any other states, but if this same data set is available for all 50, it would be interesting… Read more »

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  J.F. Martin

I appreciate the spirit in which you communicated your thoughts and concerns. I’m not motivated by fear of death or sickness. Of course I’m not in any hurry to die nor would I want to contract Covid. I am motivated by the 2nd great commandment, to take care of my family, friends, and neighbors. I’m 65 years old and I have never seen such irrational fear of a vaccine in my lifetime. This fear has been fed by so much misinformation from conspiracy theory websites and worst of all preachers and right wing radio and TV hosts. Sadly, more than… Read more »

J.F. Martin
J.F. Martin
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, thanks for your reply and sharing your motivations. I think it’s a pretty good bet that no one (regarding Covid) is in any hurry to die, but also that everyone’s trade-off analysis of risk is different. I’d be interested if you think the Idaho Covid data I linked suggests any responses that haven’t been tried, or discarding of any that have? The negative skew with age, particularly those who die already beyond average life expectancy, likely gets discounted in importance by the average (or below average) aged person. I’ve accepted that OSHA can set the standard for the amount… Read more »

Justin
Justin
9 months ago

I still can’t help but think of hypergamy in a negative sense, what positive attribute could it be associated with? Can a woman who is conscience of her hypergamy be humble, or can she only be humble if she is in the presence of greatness? Does a hypergamous wife respect her husband, or does she respect the accidental characteristics that he happens to possess, such as wealth, culture, social status, or rugged good looks? Hypergamy is then fastidious comparison. It sees only perfections and defects not the individual. These relationships, I find, are based purely on aesthetics rather then anything… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

Justin,

It had become increasingly clear that the guys in the manosphere, and therefore the pastors and popular thinkers who are leaning on them, have some serious deficiencies regarding female sexuality. So please take all of this hypergamy stuff with the appropriate amount of salt.

However, I don’t see why the concept of hypergamy itself is difficult to understand or accept. Women (and men) are attracted to social staus. Thus has it always been. There is nothing wrong with desiring an attractive, financially capable, socially well adjusted spouse, is there?

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Even the least status-conscious of parents would prefer their daughters to marry someone with prospects, and the maturity and social skills to hold a job! My own dear parents never told me I should marry for money, but they definitely told me that I shouldn’t marry without it. Given my track record, they thought I’d marry a poet or perhaps someone whose sole talent was amusing me. When I got engaged to a teacher, there were practically tears of relief. I often find it hard to believe that I produced a child so much like me. But we’ll never be… Read more »

Justin
Justin
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Desiring a decent spouse is not hypergamy. The secularists trace it back to pragmatism, and I think we can agree that choosing a mate based on pragmatism or security has nothing to do with love or respect. As I said before hypergamy is about comparison. Love, and/or, respect cannot survive if it is associated with comparison. The issue I have with Mr. Wilson’s story, Life In Girl World, is it assumes that the woman has a correct concept of Love and/or respect, that the problem lies elsewhere. To say that women are hypergamous does not absolve them from accountability. As… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

Justin, The secularists don’t trace hypergamy back to “pragmatism” unless you take a very expansive view of that concept. They trace it back to biology. Women are attracted to high status men at a biological level, just like men are attracted to beautiful (and high status) women. This is not consciously pragmatic it is more like an appetite. Do we enjoy calorie rich food because of pragmatism, or because we are biologically tuned to do so? The manosphere guys will offer a evo-pysch just so story for my women would seek out high status men, but it isn’t really necessary.… Read more »

Justin
Justin
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

“Hypergamy at its root level is about the most efficacious, pragmatic, means of women becoming fertile with the best genetic breeding opportunities, and simultaneously pairing in the long term provisioning opportunities available to a woman.” -Rollo Tomassi My understanding is that when hypergamy is the only deciding factor, a woman chooses a man because he is practical. There is a concept of first-order desires and second-order desires (I hope I understand this right). Animals and people have first-order desires, but only people have second-order desires-which are capable of overriding first-order desires. To me hypergamy seems to be a first-order desire,… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

I think the hypergamy thing has been really overstated. Sure, there are women who really want to catch a man with money and great career prospects; there always have been. But if they like everything else about a guy, I haven’t seen a lot women rejecting him because he’s a high school chemistry teacher. There are still parents telling their young adult daughters that they had better stop focusing on Jason’s looks and ask themselves if he’ll ever earn enough to pay half the mortgage. That’s not cupidity; that’s common sense. Women are currently getting undergraduate degrees, as well as… Read more »

Last edited 9 months ago by Jill Smith
Justin
Justin
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I find Soren Kierkegaard’s three life views or stages helpful in understanding by what standard people arrange their lives. For example: Jacob wanted Rachel simply because she was beautiful. This would be the aesthetic view. Not in itself wrong, but he was only thinking of himself. The ethical view can be seen nicely in the marriage of Ruth and Boaz. We see throughout the story Ruth and Boaz doing what is right and dutiful, they were constantly thinking of others. You will also notice we are not told whether Ruth was beautiful, like we are of so many other women… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, I think you may be mixing up wealth and status. A penniless male actor is likely higher status (in a particular competition, setting matters) than a guy who makes six figures running a small garbage collection business. In your daughters “set” I bet an attractive young actor is higher status than a relatively square software engineer. Also, one of the complaints I have about the manosphere is they treat women at automaton… when actually they have their own preferences and taste (imagine that!). But I think it is true that women look at thing like height, facial symmetry, sense… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Of course you’re right! It is Mum who thinks that the higher status of a remarkably good looking unemployed actor will disappear by the time he’s 35 along with his ability to make her laugh.

Cherrera
Cherrera
9 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Hypergamy is vastly understated (only talked about in the fringes) but is taking on new forms as men lack purpose/drive in a hyper-feminized world.
Rollo Tomassi (How “Red Pill” Dynamics Will Affect Our Economic Future And Social Unrest) – YouTube

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

Where does this notion of “accidental characteristics” come from? Wealth, status, and good looks are real and valuable qualities. Failing to appreciate these things isn’t being highminded. Quite the opposite, actually. God created these qualities and they demonstrate his glory and grace. A man can only be poorer for being insensitive to them. Men and women both rightly desire to marry well. This means different things for the men than for the women. Hypergamy refers specifically to a woman’s natural desire to marry a man of equal or higher social status. Much like a man’s natural desire to marry an… Read more »

Justin
Justin
9 months ago

So, God has given these qualities, wealth, status, good looks, and we are to be responsible for what he has given us, but who gives these things value (or makes them currency)? The problem is being far too sensitive of them by exaggerating their value, this also makes one poorer. Hypergamy puts the onus for a woman’s love and respect onto the object, rather than making her responsible. She can only love or respect a man who meets a certain standard. But can this even be called love or respect? What is the object she loves and or respects? We… Read more »

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

“hypergamy puts the onus…”

That’s not what hypergamy means. I gave the definition as I understand it. You’re talking about something else. I’m not sure if anyone else uses the term the way you are.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Justin

Justin, I think you are looking in some od the right places, but you are putting to much weight on a poorly defined topic (Doug may may weighting it too much as well). As far as I can tell the term hyoergamy originated in sociology/anthropology. It was an entirely descriptive term originally applied to marriages in India where one partner married a spouse in a higher caste. This was usually a woman. Later the idea was expanded to other cultures with less rigid caste system and it has generally been found that women are more likely than men to experience… Read more »

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Well put.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago

Thanks, Nathan. I’m glad you could parse it will all of the phone induced typos.

kyriosity
kyriosity
9 months ago

To Roger — That video was not filmed in the context of a worship service, in which case the gentleman in question would not have been caught dead in a hat. I don’t think the scriptural proscription against masculine headwear applies to informal recording sessions.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago

Praise God for all those who were able to help Afia in his search for a good church to attend near Kumasi.

Will
Will
9 months ago

Doug,

Flatten the Curve, indeed. How callous of you to use the measurement of Covid hospitalizations and deaths of our fellow citizens as a title for your weekly “make me feel good” session. You should be ashamed, but that requires a functioning conscience.

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

The expression ‘flatten the curve’ was actually used in the first letter from Patrick:

Maybe November will continue until we flatten the curve.

I’m not sure what he meant by it, but reckon he might be implying that we need to keep on working opposing health measures until everyone carries on as normal, bins all the restrictions and recognises covid isn’t really dangerous, it’s like flu, most survive etc.

I certainly agree that using the term as though the pandemic and its consequences are a bit of a laugh is in very bad taste.

Will
Will
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

It’s the title of his post. It’s also in the poorest of taste. Doubly so for someone claiming to be a minister of the Gospel.

Last edited 9 months ago by Will
Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Will

I don’t disagree with you. I was in part trying to head off a potential comment from one of the usual suspects that DW was only quoting someone else with the implication he may not actually be using the expression to reflect his own opinion. DW does some excellent stuff, with no little wit, on wokism, the insanity of modern society especially CRT and victimhood, but when it comes to things like the pandemic his pre-existing commitment to small government interferes (in my opinion) with a more correct appraisal of what the health measures and restrictions are intended to do.… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

CRT? Really? “The destruction of states rights in the South was the first necessity leading to forced policies undermining the cultural dominance of the Anglo-Celtic people and its institutions. Wallace rightly identified the enemy and fought it until the attempt on his life in 1972.” That’s not from a CRT proponent, that’s from the president of the League of the South, an organization whose driving cause is Southern White dominance yet who somehow was being publicly supported by Pastor Wilson. It’s hard to imagine a CRT proponent writing a more persuasive summery of CRT’s basic claims. A pastor who calls… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I had in mind modern CRT that derives from cultural Marxism that despite much of the real progress in dismantling racism seeks to stir up trouble by making all
‘people of colour’ victims of racism and privileged white males their oppressors.

Whilst needless to say there is some truth in this analysis, it fails to take into account that many whites have been oppressed and that many blacks have done pretty well for themselves in more recent decades.

It might well be that James White has dealt with this more effectively than our host here.