The Reason We Are in the Back Seat is So That We Can Be Salt and Light

If incoherence were beans, or cheese, or sour cream, or anything like that, Obama’s executive DECREE on bathrooms in government schools would be at least a nine-layer dip.

Incoherence, how do I not follow thee? Let me be unable to count the ways. There are too many. They come too fast. They are throwing them at my head now. Breathe, Wilson. Just do them one at a time.Thelma

First . . . no, wait. Better not say first. That’s counting.

Actually I can say first when just setting the stage. So first, I did actually read that dog’s breakfast of an “guidance” letter from the Justice Department. Here are the two quotes that kind of revealed to the watching world that the strongest nation in the world is now being governed by morons. But we cannot say this in a pejorative way, as though we had a right to look down on our rulers, because the only people dumber than morons are the people who allow themselves to be governed by morons.

Anyhow, here are the two quotes:

Gender identity refers to an individual’s internal sense of gender. A person’s gender identity may be different from or the same as the person’s sex assigned at birth.”

“Under Title IX, there is no medical diagnosis or treatment requirement that students must meet as a prerequisite to being treated consistent with their gender identity.”

Let the mayhem begin!

Got that, boys and girls? Oops. Did I just break a law? Gee, I sure hope so.

Assigned at birth? You mean, like, by the hospital? All this time we have been subject to the caprice of the delivery room staff? They have just been assigning genders to people like there was no tomorrow? Without any regard to what we wanted? I could have been a svelte girl instead of a chunky guy if it hadn’t been for that nurse?

According to this tyrannical (not to mention imbecilic) diktat, in principle, personally-generated gender identity now has absolute sway over every government agency in the land. There is no way that this decree for all government schools at the state level can now be kept out of the military, Social Security, Medicaid, and more.

The federal government actually doesn’t rule the states, but that is another item farther down on the list. We can save that argument for right before the shooting starts. If you want the issue to be open access to six-year-old girls for pervtards, then we want to change the issue to open carry for six-year-old girls. The shooting can spread out from there.

Now this new elusive identity requires no medical diagnosis whatever. What does it depend on? An individual’s “internal sense” that whatever (insert pronoun for the bipedal carbon-based deciding unit) feels to be the truth may or may not be consistent with what God assigned down below.

I speak of God assigning gender deliberately. For, let us be frank, the delivery room staff never really did do any kind of “assigning.” It has always been more like what moral theologians from a previous era would have called “looking.”

So the vast apparatus of government has now been placed under the control of feeeelings, nothing but feeeeelings!

So here is the fun part. Time to get to work. Every evangelical Christian male in America needs to write a letter of inquiry about how he should go about using Medicaid for all his future mammograms. Time for all Christians remaining in the government school system, which is another issue but let it wait, to notify the bureaucrats in charge of their individual file that they intend to change their gender every two weeks or so. Back and forth! Yay! Internal feelings! No medical diagnosis necessary! Let’s keep the governmental paper work just grooving along, since that may indeed be the point of the whole thing.

Okay, I said this issue could wait, but not too long, right? If your kid is still in the government schools after this fiasco, my only question at this point is, what is it going to take? Are you going to hang on to the salt and light argument until mandatory sex reassignment surgeries are being performed by sophomores in high school biology classes, using plastic picnic ware? And their reason for the plastic surgical instruments was because you and your hateful kind voted against the last levy?

But, if you insist on your kid remaining there, then at least do some relative good by having your boys go out for the girls track team. Time to wreck women’s athletics for good and all. Now one will get you ten that somebody in the comments here will complain about this revealing my long held secret wish to wreck women’s athletics. No, this is just stomping on the accelerator in that bad Thelma-and-Louise-ending in that bad movie called progressivism. You wrecking your local school athletic program for girls is like Thelma throwing her purse out the car window on the way down.

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Morsels the Stoat
Guest
Morsels the Stoat

When boys start laying cable in the girls’ rooms and not flushing, or hosing the porcelain and not wiping, the teachers may realize that they’ve bumped up against a hard limit in human nature.

Jane
Member

Perhaps counter-intuitively, I have heard from people who have worked cleaning public bathrooms that women’s rooms are actually worse. This bit of anecdotal information is worth what you just paid for it.

timothy
Guest
timothy

“Women are disgusting creatures”

Says the janitor at the day job who cleans both restrooms.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I believe it. I used to go clean the bathroom in my daughter’s dorm at college. Four girls shared it, and it was indescribably squalid. Enabling behavior, I know, but I had nightmares about rodents and roaches. I also had daydreams of enrolling them all in the military.

valerieab
Member

I wonder if it’s sheerly a factor of time spent in there.

Jane
Member

I wonder if it is a factor of wanting to get “revenge” on the fact that we’re the ones who generally have to clean our own bathrooms, so when it’s someone else’s job to clean it, women will release their inner 2 year olds and not pick up after themselves appropriately.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

I just thought bathrooms were self-cleaning. Do you mean to say all this time someone has been doing that? ;)

Peter Hyatt
Guest

This wasn’t about Islamic hygiene nor the lack thereof.

doug sayers
Guest
doug sayers

“Breathe” is good advice. We’ll get through it. One way or another. They that are for us are greater than those against.

Can one be addicted to social commentary? I thought you were on vacation.

insanitybytes22
Member

Yes, one can be addicted to social commentary. Give him heck :)

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

“U.S. Department of Justice U.S. Department of Education
Civil Rights Division Office for Civil Rights

Dear Colleague Letter on Transgender Students

Notice of Language Assistance
If you have difficulty understanding English, you may, free of charge, request language assistance
services for this Department information by calling 1-800-USA-LEARN (1-800-872-5327) (TTY: 1-800-877-
8339), or email us at: [email protected].”

This notice is on the cover letter attached to the bulletin from the DOE. Might I say, before we delve further into this issue, that I find it profoundly disturbing that the principals and administrators of tax-supported American public schools cannot safely be presumed to be fluent in English?

Christopher
Member
Christopher

Is this like having brail on drive up ATMs?

Jane
Member

It’s probably not any such presumption, it’s probably that any document put out by the DOE has to have that notice — the ones intended for the “common people” as well as those for school administrators.

IOW, it’s just a function of bureaucracy.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Or users of grocery store self-checkout kiosks.

David Koenig
Guest
David Koenig

If by some miracle the women-in-the-draft thing doesn’t pass, every man should sue to avoid Selective Service by claiming to be a woman.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Semper bi, mac!

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

That is actually funny. I am trying out html for the first time, so let me say that again.
That is actually funny!

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Thanks, jilly.

I’m working on developing a sense of humor.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have finally mastered how to bold text. Do you think this achievement will spur me on to learning how to do my own taxes?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Go for it!

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Okay, finally, what I have learned about segregation. As I told you before, I realize you were right, and that I had previously had no idea how pervasive racial segregation actually was. I also believe you when you state that until relatively recently, most people opposed interracial marriage, and that in some areas people responded to it with violence and complete social ostracism. I don’t remember if you actually said that rigid segregation was for the purpose of preventing intermarriage, but it seems like a reasonable assumption. I had not realized, until your comments made me start searching the net… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Fantastic summary.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

As you know perfectly well, you have a wicked sense of humor. Emphasis on wicked.

Tom Bateman
Guest
Tom Bateman

Brilliant.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

C’mon, Doug! Get with the program. This is just the latest frontier of the Civil Rights Movement.

Bob Dylan hasn’t had a hit in while. Maybe he can rework the song that made him a household name:

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a girl?

Tom©
Guest
Tom©

Okay, now that’s funny.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

How many trips to the stylists in town
To tease his gelled hair into curls?

Billtownphysics
Guest
Billtownphysics

The answer my friend, is flapping in the breeze…

Christopher
Member
Christopher

“Gender identity refers to an individual’s internal sense of gender. A person’s gender identity may be different from or the same as the person’s sex assigned at birth.”

So you aren’t allowed to have a sex prior to birth?

adad0
Member

Help! Bill Nye! Please come and help explain away genetics!
You know, explain how that “science” is now wrong!????????

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

So you aren’t allowed to have a sex prior to birth?

I wonder if this will have any effect on sex selective abortions. If we’ve forgotten how to tell the difference in boys and girls, “sex selective abortion” is impossible.

Luther Wesley
Guest

I have already self-identified as a female minority and applied for the appropriate scholarships.

jesuguru
Guest
jesuguru

Your beard may make it difficult to accessorize, but I wouldn’t know.

adad0
Member

Wow.
That’s almost like
Bearding the illion! ????

JP Stewart
Member

The best I’ve heard is someone identifying as a female Asian carp. Transgender, transracial and trans-species. There’s no telling how many opportunities could be open to you if you apply for the right academic, environmental, LGBTQ, poverty-based, etc. programs.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

TImothy or any other kind soul, please help! When I tried bolding something I copied from Google docs, it didn’t work, although it did work when I used the tags directly on the comment screen here. Do you know what I am doing wrong?

Jane
Member

Do you mean you tried copying something that was bolded, and lost the bolding? That would be normal. You’d have to add the tags here yourself.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Ignore this moronic salutation. I was just trying out my mark up skills.

Jane
Member

Jilly, if that’s as moronic as you get, you’re not trying!

timothy
Guest
timothy

You did a good job.

You can also nest them comping italics and bold to get bold italics

bethyada
Member

If you write “test” then everyone knows you are trying out something that they are all to ignore.

test

test

timothy
Guest
timothy

toegst

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

When my daughter was in middle school, there was a little girl who wore kitten ears and a tail every day. She meowed a lot. She may have gone on to become a normal and happy adult or, for all I know, she may have gone to Thailand for feline conversion surgery and the acquisition of fur-enhancing drugs. I thought about her when I read the Obama letter, and I realized that we are at the dawn of a new age. Because all this business about transgenderism ignores the rights of people like Cat-girl and me, I have rewritten the… Read more »

Jane
Member

When one of my daughters was about six, she pretended to be a cat 24/7. She did not speak, using cat-like gestures to communicate. She used to crouch and spring in and out of chairs. We finally had to declare that she could not be a cat at the dinner table, but had to speak and act normally. (Since she was homeschooled, we had to draw the line somewhere.) After a few weeks or a couple of months, I don’t clearly remember, it wore off.

But we never allowed her to share the litterbox with the cat.

Tom©
Guest
Tom©

Litterbox segregationist!

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Mine did too. She shared the litterbox without my knowledge once, and the cats refused to use it for weeks–even after repeated bleach treatments. At parent-teacher night, a seventh grade English teacher told me, “Cat is doing very well…” and I had no idea who she was talking about.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Here’s copy of a comment I left at The Federalist (http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/13/obama-threatens-schools-let-men-in-the-little-girls-room-or-else/) the other day. Don’t forget transpecies, also known as otherkin. http://gawker.com/5940947/from… (Better read that while you can. It’ll probably be cosidered hateful and bigoted in a few years (months? minutes?)) Don’t miss this gem: As anyone who spent time at a liberal-arts college knows, communities oriented around openness and acceptance can have trouble figuring out exactly where the boundaries are. “The relationship between legitimate social justice activists and delusional weirdos is ever-changing and gives fascinating insights into how activist communities work,” Tumblr.TXT says. There’s a sharp division between the… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

But you’ll never see it the other way around. No cat is about to identify as a clumsy tail-less bipedal.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Certainly not this kitty.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Don’t joke about this, there’s a whole internet subculture based around this exact idea and the more we talk about it the quicker the Justice Department will notice.

Byron Heward
Guest
Byron Heward

As Mencken said ” One day the plain folk of America will have their hearts desire, and a true moron will be running the White house.” I’ve been praying a long time for the total collapse of the government school system. We are reaping the harvest of said system. We look with wonder how anyone in their right mind could possibly support ANY of the current crop of presidential wannabes and well…..you know. I think them thar spankin’s is gonna get a whole lot worser.

insanitybytes22
Member

Serious question, how come no one ever self identifies as a wealthy, white, male?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I do. In my quest for world domination, I self-identify as Donald Trumpette.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Folks, its a hard slap shot from the blue line. SCORE! by Donald Trumpette.

ashv
Guest
ashv

One pseudonymous Twitter account (now lamentably defunct) identified its owner as a “pre-op trans-plutocrat”.

Luke Pride
Guest

Michael Jackson

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Dont miss this one, guys:
https://youtu.be/-4S0gHlKiho
“Is there a difference in your mind between men and women?”
College Kids: “um ………. maybe ……..um…..”

Reminds me of http://adam4d.com/complicated-question
Remember those good old days when our satires and reducios didn’t actually come true?

katie
Guest
katie

The video right below it, “On Identity,” is great too.

David Price
Guest
David Price

So the civil magistrate (CM) has chosen to look inwardly rather than outwardly to determine a person’s sex in the public arena. This is simply the CM looking a bit deeper into “natural” revelation and seeing there what the Christian’s world and life view inhibit them from seeing. Their insight is simply not as keen as the CM’s. Where else should the CM look to determine justice in these matters if not nature? After all, Jean Calvin, that great Christian theologian argues (Institutes Book IV, chapter XX (20), sections 14-16) that the CM is NOT to use the Bible as… Read more »

D. D. Douglas
Guest
D. D. Douglas

My eight-year-old daughter is about to identify as a 21-year-old open-carrying woman. At least when using the restroom.

HT: One of Doug’s comments above gave me the idea.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

A friend told me about an article she had read concerning a women’s college. They already accept transgendered students as women, although the students were required to have started the transition process. Their problem, however, is what to do with a woman student who decides to transgender the other way. The college is taking the position that, once the woman has completed the transition and is now male, she is no longer eligible for attendance there. The student is arguing for her/his right to stay. I wonder what the lawyers will make of it…other than money.

John
Member

Jilly- good to see you here!

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Guest
Conserbatives_conserve_little

VAWA

KSM
Guest
KSM

Something occurred to me this afternoon. So here’s a weekend point to ponder: Let’s suppose a young man is a pretty good (insert sport here) player, but hardly college scholarship material. However, should he “identify” as female…well, let’s just say he’d be a dominant player on the women’s team. Given that women’s groups have fought so hard – and rightfully so – to obtain sports scholarship equality at the college level, how’s this going to work out when men begin to “identify” as women in order to better excel at sports and get scholarships that were obviously intended for, you… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

You’re exactly right, and I say the sooner this happens, the sooner we can all have a big guffaw.

carandc
Member

Yes – I’ve been thinking this for some time now, but from another angle – the cost of education. It’s on my mind since I’m personally staring at the daunting task of getting four boys through college…$$$$$!!!!! So let’s just say I was a 16 year old average male junior high school basketball player who was of the secular-truth-is-relative-self-actualization-gotta-get-mine-at-any-cost sort of persuasion. I’m looking at the necessity of a degree and the 6-figure cost of that degree. A basketball scholarship on a woman’s team all of a sudden looks like a very valuable piece of paper that would lead to… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

So we’re not in the backseat being salt and light? Next you’re going to tell me we aren’t really planning to watch the submarine races.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

People with clear mental issues unrelated to genetic gender issues aside, I am curious to know what Pastor Wilson and others think the hard defining line should be. I haven’t studied this issue much, but I know enough to know that external sex organs can sometimes be ambiguous, external sex organs can be mismatched with internal sex organs, both male and female DNA can be present (I’m referring to XXY, not XY), one can have sex hormones that seem mismatched with other indicators of gender identity, and I think, but am not sure, that even brain chemistry tells a different… Read more »

John
Member
Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Nah, didn’t see anything helpful there.

That guy seems to be arguing about some back-and-forth that I’m not a part of. I thought I had made everything necessary clear in the first and last sentence. I get that there’s a need to refocus the discussion sometimes, but there’s also a need for legitimate answers to the tough questions. That post felt more like advice on how to strike the next blow in an argument than actually providing a way going forward in answering the necessary questions.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Who cares? Pick one, it’ll shake out the same for 99.9% of the population. You’re focusing on the cape not the matador.

(And what do you mean by “give more legitimacy”? To whom, for what audience? Why is “legitimacy” important?)

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

If we’re talking about what’s happening inside the Church, or how we guide and advise in our own moral decisions, then no, “legitimacy” is not enormously important. But let’s be honest – 99% of the conversation about this issue has centered on influencing politics. And if we want to convince the broader population, which politics in a democracy tends to aim to do, it helps to gain legitimacy. Remember Mike Pence and the Indiana “religious freedom” law? Even with the political support in Indiana, they didn’t have legitimacy outside, and that was enough to quickly cause a partial retreat. I… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Public opinion is controlled by the media and the academy; for the most part, people believe what they’re told to, and things like “facts” and “logic” are unnecessary details for that process. So “convincing the broader population” is something you do after you’ve won, not before.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

After you’ve won…what? Public opinion usually drives political discourse. This can get distorted when a powerful lobby wields outsized influence, but even that only tends to work on niche issues where the broader public cares far less about the issue than the lobbyists do – if the public cares, they’ll defeat even a powerful lobby. At times when a political decision is made that the public isn’t actually ready to get behind, it often ends up failing massively. I really don’t think the academy has much influence on public opinion. If it did, we’d live in a very different world.… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

When public opinion controls politics, those who control public opinion are the ones who hold power. The media controls what people think and talk about in the present, and the academy controls what people believe the past is and what futures are possible.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

I’d modify that to people believe in equal parts what they’re told to and what they want to. There is an interplay between those two factors. Notice how people are selective about which “news” sources they choose to follow.

drewnchick
Member

Look, it’s really not that complicated. There are birth defects, and we rightly call them “defects” because they are not quite right, not normal, not proper. You know, defective. People are born with six fingers, no pigment, webbed toes, cleft palette, dwarfism, Down’s, a third nipple, two left feet, parts of a leftover twin, and–yes–mixed up reproductive parts. So what? We actually know what normal is, and 99% of the population for 10,000 years has positively defined that for us, so stridently, in fact, that we really shouldn’t be having this conversation. On top of this overwhelming natural revelation we… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I have no problem with the idea that any non-fit into clear male and female categories is a consequence of the Fall. And that these defects can happen on the physical, chemical, mental level, etc. That doesn’t change the fact that they’re there, and we should be talking about where they fit in to our witness and our church. And, if such things are important to you, where they fit in on the political and government questions too. Take all the physical and mental disabilities you just listed. Would we construct a theology, or an account of our practical actions… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

Ok…so it’s 99.9% instead of 99.99%. Sorry about that…maybe I accidentally hit the “9” one extra time…maybe it doesn’t matter. The real point is that our culture (and President) are not trying to determine how to evaluate, classify, and assist those with reproductive birth defects; rather, they’re trying to say that the sexually confused, transvestites, sodomites, and other deviant/perverts are NOT to be evaluated, classified, or assisted but molly-coddled and greased into whatever insanity or perversion they have this week. And in doing this, we are now bringing into question everything we KNOW to be true about the 99.9(9)%!! God-fearing… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I agree that we should not be acting like them, running around screaming while we follow them down politically-motivated rabbit holes. So rather than just doing another version of the same thing, why don’t we show the contrast by drawing a line in the sand, evaluating, clarifying, and assisting those who are exhibiting these issues, and doing it in such a way that we close the door to those questions about the other 99%? As I said earlier, I’ve never personally known a Christian hermaphrodite or transvestite myself, and this isn’t anywhere near my top-100 priorities list. But I seriously… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

I think the answers are relatively simple, if we remove the emotional chaos swirling around us. 1) God-created people with reproductive birth defects (I’ll call them hermaphrodites for short even though it’s not really a short term) are not the same thing or even in the same category as transvestites in the same way that skinny people are not the same thing as anorexics. 2) Given that, we must deal with them differently, and ideally in the way God calls us to. That would mean loving and helping the hermaphrodites and stoning the transvestites. 3) A man who looks inside… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

While we’re clearly not going to be on the same page with the “stoning”, at least we’re getting somewhere with the basic question. It’s easy to differentiate hermaphodites from transvestites, as I’ve heard the terms used. But I think the case in the middle is the “transsexuals”, the people who actually think they are of a different sex than their exterior physical characteristics. It’s my understanding that a lot of these people are born with structural/chemical brain differences that make them different from gender-normal people, and that at least some of this difference is definitely genetic. That doesn’t make it… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

What you’re calling “brain chemistry” the Bible calls “temptation.” I’m sorry to see that the cultural morass has engulfed you. No one is born with a “predisposition to alcoholism or homosexuality” or cross-dressing or lying or thievery or murderous impulses…except for the simple fact that ALL are born into sin from their mother’s womb. So, in one sense, we all have whacked out brain chemistry, but by using the Enemy’s terminology, we have lost the battle. When we use God’s terminology to define, understand, and relate to God’s world, then the picture becomes abundantly clear. So first, we stop legitimizing… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

So if someone with a penis is not acting male because they have a receptor that’s demonstrably not binding testosterone correctly, we should just call that “temptation to sin” and hope to pray it away? You wouldn’t suggest testosterone therapy in order to help their brain orient, or whatever else would be medically helpful to move their brain structures which are demonstrably (by both size differences and hormone interactions) different from normal male/female structures and push them decisively towards one or the other? Or, say, penile reconstruction for men who are born with micropenis (that actually did happen to the… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

I’m not opposed to therapy, counseling, surgery, or anything else that corrects a birth defect. I am opposed to the things God opposes; at least, I try to be. And in a world run amok with cries for the legitimizing of perversions, the first thing we must do is make war with sin. When we can’t even call Bruce Jenner an abomination, there’s little hope we can figure out the difference between true hormonal funkiness and struggles with temptation disguised as hormonal funkiness because we’re too scared of being called intolerant or judgmental and besides, it’s just a whole lot… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I think we’re getting pretty close to being on the same page, we just want to talk about it differently, and I suspect that the “space between” is probably broader and includes more people than you do.

I agree that denial of worldly desires and full surrender to God must come first. That’s why both the cultural warriors who want to just justify anything and anyone in order to push their political position, and the cultural warriors who find easy pariahs to attack in order to push their political position, are both going nowhere.

bethyada
Member

I agree with you here but I think it is largely irrelevant. This is not being driven by the rare cases which many acknowledge pose some difficulties. It is being driven by men and women whose biological sex is not ambiguous.

The driver for maleness is testosterone (in-utero). If people cannot produce testosterone (or are completely insensitive to it) they are female. The DNA tells us how this works.

XXY are clearly male.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I agree with you about who it is “driven” by. I think that good definitions and that good responses based on those definitions help us address such drivers better than playing with their methods in their ballpark. People can have XY DNA and still have external female organs but internal male organs (Androgen insensitivity syndrome). I don’t know how they are usually “assigned” sexually, or even what the right answer is. It seems that a lot of them end up asexual or attracted to men. It appears that many transgender men, rather than having CAIS, have an elongated androgen or… Read more »

bethyada
Member

CAIS is complete. So they have high levels of testosterone (higher than many men), are completely unresponsive to it, have reasonable quantities of oestrogen. They do have testicles (undescended) which make the testosterone, which is converted to oestrogen. They develop as females but don’t have a womb hence are sterile are don’t get periods. They are completely female and look like their XX sisters (carriers and non-carriers). They are not ambiguous and will only know of their issue via genetics. Partial androgen deficiency is slightly different, but that are usually male because the have some response to the testosterone. In… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I’m surprised that you say a woman with testicles and no womb is not ambiguous, but I respect the position and suspect it’s the right decision, because despite the internal organs being male, the brain and the external are in sync with female. The 1/1000 number includes all cases which are externally physically ambiguous and require a specialist at birth (which the numbers I’ve seen are cited as 1 in 1,500-2000), as well as things like CAIS and other syndromes where the internal organs and DNA are completely different from the external appearance. The 1/100 number includes everyone with an… Read more »

bethyada
Member

CAIS look like girls at birth. They have a vagina (most of), they develop breasts at puberty. The testicle is small and in the inguinal canal, they do not have a scrotum. They look like girls at birth and post puberty. Prior to modern medicine their abnormalities by and large would have not been overly noticed. There is no doubt these are girls. And the fact that they do not respond to testosterone at all confirms this. They, functionally, have less testosterone than other females. As to ambiguous, there is a difference between truly ambiguous: what sex is this person?… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Thanks for all this – you definitely know a lot more on the subject than I do. I think I can agree that external organs/hormones are the way to go, and the exceptions where this isn’t clear enough are limited. The more information I look at, the more the science behind trans-sexuality looks a lot like homosexuality. There’s a genetic component, but it’s not completely determinative the large majority of the time. There’s probably an early-childhood component, but it’s hard to say when the issue completely sets in. It appears almost certain that environment and personal choices play a factor… Read more »

bethyada
Member

(I am well educated in the hard sciences and the life sciences) On pastoring within the church…. I have listened to Sy Rogers a couple of times. He is a good communicator. I think his approach is quite good. His emphasis is always on, the transsexual or the homosexual’s primary problem is that he needs to know Jesus. That is introduce him to the God who loves him and let God work truth into his sexuality. Sy was both homosexual and transsexual (hormonal not surgical) before his conversion. While I have a few minor disagreements with him and you may… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Sometimes I evny Daniel. He had to deal with an ungodly magistrate, for sure, but one who would at least be swayed by reason.

1:15 At the end of ten days it was seen that they were better in appearance and fatter in flesh than all the youths who ate the king’s food. So the steward took away their food and the wine they were to drink, and gave them vegetables.

Efigee
Guest
Efigee

We live in a world allowed to become insane by the Lord. What this world wants is for there to be no difference claimed whatsoever.. It will do no good to claim either sex. And the rules will be rewritten every day. All that will be prohibited will be to cling to Jesus the Christ.

timothy
Guest
timothy

http://genius.com/1343459 Battles over rights and other issues, according to Alinsky, should never be seen as more than occasions to advance the real agenda, which is the accumulation of power and resources in radical hands. Power is the all-consuming goal of Alinsky’s politics This focus on power was illustrated by an anecdote recounted in a New Republic article that appeared during Obama’s presidential campaign: “When Alinsky would ask new students why they wanted to organize, they would invariably respond with selfless bromides about wanting to help others. Alinsky would then scream back at them that there was a one-word answer: ‘You… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

A good strategy would be…….

I’d say a peaceful secession.

If our response is mainly about bathrooms and the privacy and safety of our wives and sisters and daughters (even as important as that is) we will lose.

It ain’t about bathrooms, y’all.

timothy
Guest
timothy

I am in the vociferous, undaunted push-back win this thing and evict the heathen camp.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Here is a Christian bringing the fight to them:

https://twitter.com/MikeSAdams

http://townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/

Smash-mouth Christianity, its a beautiful thing.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Yeah I used to read Mike Adams pretty regularly. I can’t quite remember why I stopped. I don’t agree with all your proposed tactics, timothy, but we are indeed on the same team. I don’t understand why a believing Christian would not be at least in favor of a peaceful secession since we fought a war with England over much less. As for solutions beyond that, I haven’t thought through the implications enough to say for sure yes or no, but I’m pretty sure something’s gonna give before too long. Hard and fast limits of anthropology and economics are quickly… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

They won’t let us go.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I believe you, but I don’t understand this. Back in the day when I crusaded for causes, I did it because I wanted specific changes to create a better society. Power was only important to me insofar as it might bring those changes about. Do you think this is true of both left and right wing crusaders?

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Jillybean. You are what Lenin referred to as a useful-idiot*. To Lenin anything or anyone that would advance his goals was used. Useful idiots where those who where confident that what they where doing was what was really in play. Lenin, seeing their use (your heartfelt commitment and energy, for example) would encourage them without caring at all about the cause. As long as the cause advanced Lenin’s interests, they (you) where useful to him. Obama is a marxist. His father was a marxist, his mentor Bill Ayers is a marxist. He does not think like you and I… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I know you do. It is all very depressing, isn’t it, Timothy. It is awful to take what is good and kind in people and use it for a bad purpose.

timothy
Guest
timothy

The way of Christ is much more powerful. There is an oft-quoted verse on this subject. I thanked katecho for demonstrating the utility of seeing the subtext in a presented argument. Such arguments are a variant of the “the issue is not the issue the issue is always power” phenom. Once you learn to see such things as they are, that learning becomes a tool in your toolbox of Wisdom. There are patterns to it. Chaos is one hallmark of it. Desecration another. Pride another. Haughtiness another. The fruits of the Spirit are no where in it. The goal is… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Thank you, Timothy. You encourage me.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Just a question, yes? Have you ever met a trans-sexual? What does he/she think of this?

C.S. Lewis once wrote (in a letter I think) when asked about the homo-sexual question that it was best answered by a homosexual. Something on those lines might be applicable here. What do the trans-sexuals think? It should matter quite a lot.

drewnchick
Member

First off…words have meanings despite one’s desire to Clintonize them, and thus there is no such thing as a “trans-sexual” because one’s sex is God-ordained and cannot be changed. There is also no such thing as “trans-gendered” because–well–our moronic culture has been stomping all over the meaning of “gender” for a long time, and goober-smooches still think it’s a synonym for “sex,” and since it isn’t, they don’t know that it’s impossible to actually BE “trans-gendered” because gender has nothing to do with body parts. Or identity. No, the term you’re looking for and know about but refuse to use… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr(?) Malachi, Thank you for your explanation. You did indeed address my query, but not comprehensively. You did not mention whether you had actually met a member of the group you choose to label as “transvestites”. I take it you haven’t, nor perhaps (given your characterization of them) have you any inclination to. And that would be a fine answer from a “normal” person, that is one blessed to be afflicted with temptations that society does not condemn outright. It is assuredly not an acceptable answer from a Christian. So if you are not a Christian, great job! However… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

What difference does it make whether I’ve met a transvestite or not?
Why do you give me so much credit for the transvestite appellate?
What difference does it make whether I’m a Christian?
Why is my answer to your only meaningful question not “acceptable” from a Christian?
What is the meaning of “acceptable”?
Why do you judge me so harshly–with all caps even?

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi, Whether or not you are Christian makes all the difference in the world. Which is also why my first question is critically important. If you, as a “normal” person, were to meet a “transvestite” (to employ your term), I imagine you would be horrified by the strangeness. There are so few if them. A microscopic minority: powerless and despised. However, as a Christian, you would see (over time of course) that they too are made in the image of God and Christ died for them. It is practically compulsory for you to stand with them and plead… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

Dear Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms./Messrs. Vishwanath Haily Dalvi: The term “transvestite” is not “my term.” This is a huge misunderstanding on your part. It is an age-old term correctly applied to people who have perverted the truth by wearing the wrong clothes and/or body parts. God certainly did not create transvestites since by definition they have done the “trans” part of the “vestments” all by their onesies. There is a HUGE difference between a sinful transvestite and a God-created person with a reproductive birth defect, such as a hermaphrodite. (But you see, we have different names for them already! If you are conflating… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi,
Just a couple of posts previously you had taken umbrage at being judged “harshly” for an answer you wrote. Yet, here you are blithely condemning (your words = “stoned as abominations”) an entire class of people, none of whom you have even met. In a way that flatly contradicts the example set by our Lord.
To take your illustration of a hermaphrodite further, have you considered malformations in the brain in your list of pardonable deviations?
I wish you would use more graceful speech, seasoned with salt.

drewnchick
Member

I did not write anything blithely; sorry if it came off that way. I was quite serious. I did not condemn transvestites; I echoed the words of our Lord who said they are an abomination (Deut. 22:5). You may not have read anything back of Matthew in a long while, but God makes it pretty clear that transvestites are not a protected class of people. Please stop with the goofy requirement that I personally meet a transvestite. Maybe I have. You don’t know, and laying this out as a requirement not only is presumptive on your part regarding my personal… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi, What I would want you to consider is the whole person: not just one characteristic. Which you would have done had you met a flesh and blood transsexual (with your permission, I will use their preferred term for themselves). Then you would be better placed to address whatever trials and temptations constitute their lot. You would also be less eager to apply a Law which (a) you are required to keep in totality on penalty of death (b) only one Man in history has actually managed to do so and (c) is fulfilled by His sacrifice. Perhaps… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

I have never met a serial murderer, but I am very glad that our nation’s laws closely approximate God’s law when dealing with such people–from a position of jurisprudence. I cringe at the thought of what the serial murderer has done, and I despise his atrocious actions and the horrible thoughts that led to his heinous sins. Yet, were I to meet such a man, I would not take the law into my own hands–I would call the cops. Now having met him I would pray for him, his family, and the numerous victims of his sin. And I would… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi, It is clear that you have never met a trans-sexual. If you had, you would not be praying for his/her execution. However, since you are so big on judgement let me leave you with a couple of thoughts (from our Lord, no less): 1. “Judge not, lest you be judged. And with the same measure you use, it shall be measured out to you.” This of course is Matthew 7:1-3 2. This one may have slipped your mind: Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Why would it matter who he has or hasn’t met? You have no argument other than “you wouldn’t like to be treated that way”. For what purpose does God’s servant, the king, bear the sword?

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr.(?) Ashv, It matters a great deal: because Mr. Malachi (and Mr. Wilson before him) have taken it upon themselves to disparage an order from (in a real sense) your king (but at the very least your supreme magistrate). This would have been fine, and even commendable, if the order was outrightly unjust. However, the order seems to be designed to alleviate some of the indignity endured by a small and powerless group of your fellow citizens: namely the trans-sexuals. Now, you have already failed in your duty as Christans (I am not judging you as exceptionally worse Christians… Read more »

soylentg
Member

Dear Mr. (?) VHD – I can call you VHD for short can’t I? What madness, you ask? It is the madness that refuses to empower depraved grown men from frequenting bathrooms with little girls, rather than calling it something to “alleviate some of the indignity endured by a small and powerless group.” What madness, you ask? It is the madness that refuses to acknowledge a fictional being – that being a “transgender” person. It understands that in the real world that God has made there is no such thing as transforming from a man to a woman; only the… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. St. Lee, These are good questions you raise. But surely small children have protectors with them. Or do you imply street children and orphans? But these are already vulnerable in far worse ways. Besides, haven’t the more egregious and repeated abuses being perpetrated by adult males on small boys of their acquaintance? I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, of course, but this objection seems too contrived to carry much in the way of making your case. About the sinfulness of the sex-change operation: you are in no position to comment. Only a trans-sexual… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

Dude, you’re seriously off base. God says to execute homosexuals. God said it. God did. GOD. Not me. GOD. Learn the difference. He says transvestitism is an abominations. God said it. God…not me. Are you aware that you are calling our Lord’s proclamations “madness”? I ask you to apply a little more logical thought and back off on the bleeding-heart pathos. How must a Christian respond to a serial child rapist? A cannibal? A thief of little old ladies’ life savings? A morbidly obese person who eats his own refuse? Is there no room for us to call disgusting things… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi, By our Lord’s reckoning, you are already guilty of murder (since you have wished death on your fellows). Where then this talk about demanding judgement? If the Lord counted our transgressions, who could stand? A Christian must respond to the most egregious offender in the same way as Christ responded to you: an equally egregious offender. Take steps necessary to prevent further offences: but driven by understanding. Hence, the stark, raving, lunatic should probably be restrained. But the divorcee should probably be extended invitations to dinner. The bar for Christians is high. You have to be able… Read more »

Matt Bell
Member

VHD,

Is God guilty of murder for commanding the death penalty?

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Not at all. But you will notice that He has employed it on His own Son! The wrath meant for us was poured on Him.

Does that inform your behaviour towards those who have transgressed against you?

Matt Bell
Member

I hope so, but your answer seems like a redirection. Why do you think Malachi is guilty of murder for wanting God’s prescribed punishment carried out?

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Because it is not prescribed. Mr. Malachi expressed a wish it were prescribed. In other words, he wished they were all dead. What is worse is, he hasn’t met any of them! Anyway, the point was not that at all. The point I was trying to drive home was that if you demand justice, you get way more than your bargained for. If the trans-sexuals deserve death for one or more of their sins, so do we all for several of our sins. The Father poured our this wrath on His Son rather than on us. We should at least… Read more »

Matt Bell
Member

Ah, but it’s not that simple. We all deserve hell, but God did not command the death penalty for all sins. I think Malachi’s comment was pretty clear that he is not wishing them dead, but wishing just punishment delivered to criminals. The soul of an executed person is not beyond God’s reach.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr Gardener, Ah, by that standard we should be dragging divorced people from their second wedding honeymoons and stoning them to death. The engineer who thought to put in a couple of hours on Sunday: dragged out of his office and similarly stoned. And do you eat pork? Please use the example provided by the Lord Himself. Reach out to sinners. Remember you are one yourself. Be hasty to forgive. Show His mercy rather than your righteousness (which is disgusting like used rags). If sinners are not beyond God’s grace in death, neither are they beyond His justice. So… Read more »

Matt Bell
Member

I wish I could recommend some reading to help you understand this law stuff. “Do you eat pork?” is a lame atheist gotcha question. Even though Christians are not under the law, nations have to have them, and they should resemble God’s, ergo, the death penalty can be just when justly applied. There will always be murder (in this age), and it should always be illegal. This is not contradictory with Christian mercy. A dad from my high school has forgiven his son for murdering the other two members of the family. The son is on death row and deserves… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Gardener, It would be good indeed if men’s laws mirrored God’s heart. And therefore it is good also to remember our Lord’s words: “The Sabbath is made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath.” The law is made for men, not men for the law. The way I understand you to apply the law is not just contrary to Christian mercy, it is contrary to logic. Surely the same Scripture that recommends death for transvestites, prescribes death for adulterers and breakers of the Sabbath. Please explain your logic in applying the full force of the law to the… Read more »

Matt Bell
Member

All I said was that God commands the death penalty for some sins and not others. Nations must do the same thing. I think the general understanding is that we are a long way from the “ideal biblical republic” whose laws could match God’s perfectly. This is a starting point on that idea, but there may be better: https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/abortion-first-degree.html

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Gardener, Thank you for the link. I enjoyed reading the post. I pray your indulgence in reproducing a passage from that post which deals with a supposed problem in an “ideal biblical republic”. Here is the passage, read closely: “Suppose that in our ideal biblical republic, we had a sensational case involving frozen embryos. This is a thought experiment so you need to forget for the moment that there will be no frozen embryos in our ideal biblical republic. But suppose we had them. A man and his wife had the embryos “done up.” Their relationship went south… Read more »

Matt Bell
Member

I got it. :) It is an interesting inclusion, and probably not an oversight coming from Wilson. In fact, since that is an older post, you should email him directly and see what he says about that. I would be very interested in reading his answer. By the way, I’m just along for the ride. I’m not fully convinced of Wilson’s eschatology, having been raised firmly in the sinking ship school of premillennialism. However, I have read enough Wilson to strongly suspect that his answer would include grounds for divorce that (according to Wilson and others) allow for remarriage, such… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Gardener, I am glad you enjoyed it. :) About the adultery bit, I am not sure one gets away with it so easily. The Lord Himself has clearly taught that Moses’ exemption no longer holds. If adultery were indeed the cause for divorce, one or the other of the original couple should have been stoned to death. Except, the Lord Himself spared the woman caught in adultery. Hence the application of the Law is not as clear-cut as Mr. Wilson would have it. A biblical republic which does not robustly include the Christian charity in every aspect of… Read more »

Jane
Member

The thing that must always be remembered is that God gave those laws knowing they would not be implemented in the “ideal biblical republic,” that they would be corrupted by sinners, and that they would result in injustice both out of neglect and out of unjust enforcement, because they would be implemented by corrupt people in a non-ideal situation.

And He gave them anyway, and expected them to be followed.

Matt Bell
Member

“Knowing they would not be implemented”?

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

“And He gave them anyway, and expected them to be followed.” Dear Ms. Dunsworth, Scripture is full of instances where He did not follow these “laws”. Case 1: King David. Crime: Murder in order to cover up adultery. Judgement: Allowed to repent and be restored to fellowship with God. Result: Man after God’s own heart. Case 2: Moses. Crime: Murder. Judgement: 40 years in the wilderness followed by a theophany. Result: The greatest of the Old Testament Prophets. Giver of the Law. Case 3: Cain. Crime: Murder. Judgement: Exile with supernatural protection. Result: Married and had children. Case 4: The… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

We don’t have a king, and that’s a source of much of our current problems. If you think the current conflict is about the “dignity” of a small group of people, then you are choosing to ignore the past several decades of American culture and politics.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Ashv,

So am I right in saying that the trans-sexuals are pawns in a bigger game? I thought so. Their numbers are too small and there is too much reflexive antipathy towards them for them to constitute any real threat to anyone.

This makes your duty as Christians all the more important then. You have to reach out to this group which is being doubly exploited.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Yes. The outreach needed is a call to repentance from their rebellion against nature, and the help of doctors and counsellors to address the mental illness that has fostered their perversion.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Indeed. Pray and go. The Lord will lead you.

drewnchick
Member

I never thought I’d hear anyone say that witnessing against someone in court was tantamount to murder. I’m not sure whether to classify this sentiment as misguided or just plain stoopid.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Malachi, Witnessing in court is not in itself tantamount to murder. But the court is fictitious. It is a fabrication of your imagination. You have imagined a fantasy scenario where a trans-sexual would be condemned to death on your witness. In fact you have prayed for this. It is clear that you have wished death on an entire category of your fellow citizens who have done you no wrong. How could they? They haven’t even met you. If you have problems with this characterization, please take it up with our Lord in your prayers. He will give you… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think that perhaps you are distressing yourself too much over something that is not likely ever to happen. Only in a Biblical theocracy could there ever be a question of executing a person for wearing clothing of the wrong gender, and even then there would be such safeguards as to make such a thing most unlikely. I can’t speak for Malachi, but I think he is perhaps more concerned with emphasizing that God sees this as an abomination worthy of the death penalty than with actually daydreaming about having transvestites put to death. To be fair to him, I… Read more »

RandMan
Guest
RandMan

But jilly, the fact that the bible calls this a sin ‘worthy of death’ should give any truly thinking christian pause about the bible itself. Or again, is it mere ‘context’?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I don’t know why the bible says this. I haven’t read all the surrounding passages, but does the Bible call cross-dressing worthy of death, or does it specifically call for the execution of the cross-dresser? Because I see a difference between the two. I did some reading and found a few explanations. One is that because the sexes tended to dress alike (i.e. no clear division like pants versus skirts), the distinctions were in jewelry, color, and work tools/weapons. Men and women were more rigidly separated than we are (for example, a man did not hang out with a group… Read more »

RandMan
Guest
RandMan

Jilly, maybe. Or maybe some humans invoke god to justify wicked in-group/out-group behavior. I personally think the basis for christian male obsession with all things homosexual and related offshoots is an anxiety based on possible subconscious desire. (of course I have as much evidence for that as does a christian for god which is to say none- except for an interesting study or two on the sexual arousal of homophobic males to gay pornography.)

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

But jilly, the fact that the bible calls this a sin ‘worthy of death’ should give any truly thinking christian pause about the bible itself. Or again, is it mere ‘context’?

Deut 22 calls transvestism an abomination, but does not specifically require the death penalty. Other things in Deut called abominations include sacrificing blemished sheep, paying a vow with prostitution wages, and using unfair weights and measures. These things also do not specifically require the death penalty.

RandMan
Guest
RandMan

Phew. Downgraded to mere abomination.

Bonus: blemished sheep everywhere are no longer looking over their shoulder in fear of reformed christians.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Ms Bean,
I was merely pointing out to Mr. Malachi that the judgement game can backfire and envelope us all. If I am distressed by anything it is the gross mischaracterization of our Lord’s character. If transvestitism is a sin, adultery is more clearly so. Do we see the self righteous types go around wishing death on remarried divorcees? No. Why? Did not the same part of Scripture condemn both actions?
Anyhow, the Lord is able. I am not worried.

Nienna
Guest
Nienna

Malachi – a serial killer has KILLED people. Such a person deserves the severest sentence from the law. A ‘transvestite’ (I suspect you mean a ‘transsexual’) has killed and harmed NO-ONE. How can you compare the two things? One person is a dangerous criminal, the other is not. Do you think the Nazis were correct to gas homosexuals? The Law of Moses also called for girls who weren’t virgins on their wedding night to be stoned to death. Is that something you would also want implemented? Or would you prefer to send the non-virgin to the gas chamber, as you… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

I compare the two because…Logic. God calls hands that are swift to shed innocent blood an abomination. God calls people who cross-dress and swap reproductive body parts an abomination. There appears to be a similarity here that GOD HIMSELF has given us. I do not presume to know more than God. Do you? Nor am I willing to call good (or neutral) what God has called evil. Are you?

Nienna
Guest
Nienna

No, I am not, but we don’t burn witches, despite us Christians believing that witchcraft is wrong. The New Covenant way to deal with a witch or sorcerer is to pray for them to be delivered, not to persecute them. St Paul did just that.

You’ve not answered my question about the non-virgin bride. Is she on the same level as the serial killer? Is she to be stoned, or gassed? Because her sin is no less than that of the transsexual, right?

I’m not trolling. I am genuinely interested in how you think.

drewnchick
Member

I believe I have left my thoughts all over this thread, but to save you the effort of reading them, I’ll summarize here. We should think God’s thoughts after Him. I try to do that, with limited success. Where God is clear, I want to be clear. Where God is mysterious, I remain silent and stand in mystified awe. God said various things are abominations. I, therefore, believe they are abominations and I simply am disinclined to care about the opinions of prevailing culture. God said various sins are also judicial crimes, and should be met with certain levels of… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi Malachi. I think you and I have engaged before about whether there is a genuine biochemical basis to sinful behavior or whether we have pathologized sin to absolve ourselves of the duty to avoid it. I think I thought you were right in some but not all instances. Do you believe it is possible that future research might show some such basis to be authentic, in the same way that epilepsy, once believed to be a sign of lunacy or demonic possession, is now understood to be entirely medical? If scientists found a specific genetic marker in every transvestite… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

I will try to address your questions in turn, with the utmost respect. 1. “Do you believe it is possible that future research might show some [biochemical] basis [for sinful behavior] to be authentic, in the same way that epilepsy, once believed to be a sign of lunacy or demonic possession, is now understood to be entirely medical?” A: Yes and no. I believe that the medical community, powered like so many other institutions to provide answers to man’s problems while rejecting God, will undoubtedly find something that they will tout as the “transvestite gene,” thus proving, as they are… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Thank you, Malachi.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

God’s Son also says, “Whichever of you is free from sin, throw the first stone.”

And there is ample evidence throughout Scripture that even before Jesus’s new covenant, the fact that a death penalty “could” be prescribed for a certain offense does not mean that it would or should be prescribed for every case of that offense.

drewnchick
Member

True. Now, explain that in juxtaposition with His required handling of abominations in a way that doesn’t make God sound schizophrenic, wishy-washy, chasing cultural fads, or in the midst of a family feud.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

That before the cleansing death of Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit on Earth, all people, even the Jewish people, could not do what they ought. As Jesus said, they were a hard-hearted people and Moses knew it and accommodated for it. God said that they had hearts of stone, which need to wait until the new covenant to be turned into hearts of flesh. That will come when God puts a new Spirit in them. So before the coming of Christ, in order to fulfill their unique mission as the nation of Israel, a Holy Nation… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

In light of this explanation, how would you deal with a serial rapist of 11-yr-old girls who eats them when he is done raping them (you know, to hide the evidence)? Also, he runs a dog-fighting ring. Would you be all right with him pastoring a church somewhere in La-la, CA while he slowly works through the long timeframe between sin and repentance, including the occasional backsliding episode? Or, would you be in favor of our judicial system executing him in a gas chamber? You are right that we aren’t stoning people that God says to stone. I suspect that’s… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

For the good of himself and others, it seems quite clear that such a man needs to be kept somewhere where he can absolutely never touch 11-year-old girls…or dogs, I guess, if that’s important to you….and get serious psychological help. Repentance could possibly come as quickly and easily and miraculously for him as it does for anyone else, or it could be a long, hard road, like it is for many others. I can’t imagine rehabilitation being anything other than a long, hard road, but sometimes God works beyond man’s expetations. But how would we determine whether such a man… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

People who never say a word about women wearing trousers should really stop whining and moaning about men wearing dresses. It is an age-old term correctly applied to people who have perverted the truth by wearing the wrong clothes You are aware that for well over a thousand years in the West that women who wore pants were considered transvestites, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_trousers It simply wasn’t done until about 90 years ago. Try to find a photo of a group or crowd of people before 1960 where women were wearing pants. It simply wasn’t done. Christians didn’t engage in that kind… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

That’s an awful long rant about dresses and pants.
I’m not sure if you knew or simply have not a clue
This wasn’t the subject about which we object.
So, upon the next time try to stay in the lines.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

You don’t object to transvestism?

Then why in the world are you ranting about transvestites?

You didn’t write this?

The term “transvestite” is not “my term.” This is a huge misunderstanding on your part. It is an age-old term correctly applied to people who have perverted the truth by wearing the wrong clothes and/or body parts.

“I don’t mind transvestism; I just hate transvestites” isn’t really a tenable position.

drewnchick
Member

Pay attention…

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I am.

You’re trying to have it both ways.

You object to male transvestites, but think female transvestites are fine.

drewnchick
Member

You are projecting your preconceived notions upon me. If you had actually read and considered the whole of my comments, you would not find a jot that indicates I “think female transvestites are fine.”
Since you say you are paying attention, I am now led to conclude that you are purposely being unfair.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

You can’t spell tyranny without tranny.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

And a pirate without a pee is merely irate.

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

Yeah, sinful people never behave in an irrational manner… that’s just beyond ridiculous.

It is precisely because these folk are made in God’s image that their behavior is wicked. Perversion implies there is a correct way round.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Ms.(?) Uberti, The people who behave irrationally are most commonly people in pain or under stress: desperate people. A very hungry man will try to eat his fingers. A very thirsty man will drink salt water. When one sees irrational behaviour it it worthwhile to identify sources of need, and despair, powerlessness and ignorance. However, wicked people do not behave irrationally. Their behavior is carefully thought out and calculated to maximize personal gain. So in which category do transsexuals fall? You have to meet one to find out. Perhaps the problem is something else altogether. However it is irrational… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I agree with you that the compulsion is not wicked in the sense that somebody chooses to feel that way. It’s not the same kind of sin as killing your wife for the insurance money. I don’t know if even psychiatrists really understand why people have these feelings. I think that Christians should feel grateful to God if they have been blessed with normal, healthy impulses.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Indeed. And show kindness and understanding towards those not so blessed for so were some of us!

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

Kindness and understanding are not incompatible with identifying sin as sin. In fact, they require it, for it is unkind to lie.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Of course. But surely they precede rather than follow judgement.

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

The problem here is that you and V are suggesting a false dichotomy: either a fellow is dispassionately pursuing Evil, or else he’s a head case who can’t be held responsible. Both are true: everyone is responsible to God for all of our sins, and we all have weaknesses in particular areas. One fellow is inclined to sloth, another is greedy, a third struggles with envy; there are no impulses in a man so normal and so healthy that they are not an occasion for sin.

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

Do you accept the basic axioms of Christianity? Because according to Scripture, wicked people, by definition, are in revolt against reality, at war with Omnipotence. Their behavior is objectively insane, producing neither stable happiness in this life nor felicity in the hereafter. So, I reject your claim that wicked people are not irrational, and I reject your claim that the so-called transsexuals can claim not to be wicked on the basis that it’s obviously foolish and desperate behavior. The two are not exclusive. A hungry man may eat his fingers; he may also kill and eat the postman. More important,… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Uberti, I do indeed accept the basic axioms of Christianity. I am Christian. And I do agree with you that it is good to eat with sinners. One can hardly avoid it. Where-ever we look, there are sinners. If we find ourselves alone, we need only look in the mirror and behold! a sinner. Let us therefore not be muddle-headed about this central point: we are sinners saved by grace. The bar for salvation is very high and none of us can meet it. Only by the blood of the Lord can we be washed clean. Since you… Read more »

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

You are asserting that to feel a strong internal bent toward some action means that action cannot be sin. That isn’t a reasonable standard, because it applies to all the sins of incontinence. Are murderers never overwhelmed by anger? Are fornicators never enslaved to their lust? It’s not as though chronically angry people don’t realize that this is an unattractive feature – “Yeah, that’s my good friend, I love the way he flies off the handle at every little imagined slight,” said no-one ever. So your assertion that only desperation or some mysterious compulsion – as opposed to sin –… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Uberti, I am afraid you have misunderstood me. I am not trying to argue a matter of law. I am trying to argue that, for a Christian, this matter should not be one of application of a law. A Christian should, as a general principle, be wary of applying laws strictly to anyone. If your friend has a problem with temper, would your Christian duty be to pray for his demise or for his healing? Should you take it on yourself be beat his temper out of him or should you try to work out the root causes?… Read more »

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

I do not take well to being judged for sins that exist solely in your imagination. Quote me saying something boastful. Likewise, I do not take well to you repeating groundless and, as it happens, false pronouncements about whom I know. Which in addition to being irrelevant is rude. In other words, what you are doing isn’t judgment, it’s merely random insults and allegations. That is not the same as arguing that if something is sin, those who do it are sinners. I don’t need to look into a thief’s soul to know that stealing is wrong. That’s a kind… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Uberti, I just went over the post to which you replied and it turns out I have addressed all your points already. Please have a re-read. But perhaps this illustration would be helpful: Remarriage to a person other than one’s original spouseafter divorce is clearly a sin. It is adultery : penalty is stoning to death. Are you an advocate for stoning divorcees during their second wedding. No? But they are clearly in “high rebellion” against the Lord! What gets them a pass? Perhaps the fact that they are all around us. Some of them are our close… Read more »

Christopher
Member
Christopher

“What gets them a pass? Perhaps the fact that they are all around us. Some of them are our close friends and relatives. This is the difference love makes. Apply the same principle to the transsexuals.” And the murderers, and the rapeists, and the pedophiles, and the liars…. ect. ect. ect. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” – James 2:10 “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.” – Proverbs 8:13 “Woe unto… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Casey, No, it is impossible to keep the second without keeping the first. If God is not first, all is lost. And therefore we should try to emulate the example set by God Himself. Whereas there are several cases where He has forgiven and even blessed murderers caught red-handed I can’t find a single passage where He demanded a death for a murder. There are passages where He has killed or demanded that specific people be killed for breaking the Sabbath, for complaining, for stealing part of the spoils of war etc. But nowhere has He demanded the… Read more »

Christopher
Member
Christopher

“No, it is impossible to keep the second without keeping the first. If God is not first, all is lost.”

Of course it’s not impossible, but there is a point where standing with the oppressed minority leaves you standing with Achan.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Casey, I congratulate you on your extraordinary abilities. To love your neighbour on your own strength is mighty indeed! Must be wonderful being a spiritual giant. If I may make a humble suggestion to a being so advanced as yourself, deploy your ability to love to a neighbour that is normally invisible: or at first glance, repulsive. Like a trans-sexual. That will indeed be a true test of your super-powers. In case you find yourself being crushed under the burden, just pray to our Lord. He is our Refuge and Strength: ever present to help in times of… Read more »

Christopher
Member
Christopher

Thanks, I will also pray that you do not drive off the left side of the road in an attempt to not go off the right.

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Thanks for your prayers. I appreciate the gesture: for narrow is the road that leads to salvation.

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

What on earth are you on about? Are you claiming that America’s wicked tolerance one sin implies I have to deny all other sins exist? It’s not as though the sexual revolution was my idea, ya know. I don’t refrain from stoning adulterers because I prefer fornication to cross-dressing, or because I know more fornicators – your point is entirely tangential. I refrain from stoning them because I don’t make the judicial rules for our society. I’m not even addressing the issue. My argument is simply that Scripture clearly teaches that transsexualism is a sin, and we should treat it… Read more »

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

Dear Mr. Uberti, Agree or disagree? The correct answer to such a question of course is :it depends! On what? Why, on the individual of course. And his/her circumstances. It is not possible to make out at a cursory glance what is going on in the heart of a person. Only God knows the heart and God is able to heal the heart. I really do not recommend coming in the way of His work. You refrain from stoning them because you don’t make the rules? Which means if you could make the rules, you would have stoned them? Are… Read more »

Farinata degli Uberti
Guest
Farinata degli Uberti

This is amusing. Someone starts off saying something obvious: pretending to be girl when you ain’t is perverse and unbiblical. You respond mystigogically: do you really know these people? How can you possibly judge what is in their hearts, dude? You then proceed to invent apparently mortal sins of your own as a basis for judging your interlocutors. Stoning in my heart, eh? Is that even a thing? Stoning being a judicial penalty, your hypothetical requires the existence of a society that makes certain sins subject to extreme judicial sanction. Some wild and crazy place like ancient Israel. Supposing I… Read more »

drewnchick
Member

How can you say “this is not wickedness” about something God has said “this is an abomination”? How do you justify that sentence, since you have also said “I am Christian.”?? Answer carefully…

Vishwanath Haily Dalvi
Guest
Vishwanath Haily Dalvi

It is not wickedness because you do not know the intent. The only way you can find out the intent is if you befriend that person, earn his/her trust and then ask. Clearly you couldn’t be bothered to do that. Since you are so fascinated by abomination, I would like to point out another. A Christian sitting in judgement over his fellow men. When the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness! Please start praying. You have to grow strong in the Lord. There are harder battles ahead. They will need you to grow a large, tender… Read more »

Timothy
Guest
Timothy

Well said

Jared
Guest
Jared

Yes and Amen.

JP Stewart
Member

Here’s how far the PC/SJW crowd has gone — UC Irvine now has an “Office of Inclusive Excellence,” with such wonderful programs as “annual Anteater Equity Games” and “Safe Zone training.” https://freetheanimal.com/2016/05/office-inclusive-excellence.html

As one commenter said, “Can it get even more Orwellian?” Note: the guy who runs that site is an atheist and there’s typically some bad language in posts/comments.

Capndweeb
Guest
Capndweeb

Would I be out of line to suggest that just perhaps, maybe, to some degree, our society has an unhealthy preoccupation with matters sexual?
Galations 5: 16-17 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Cyrano Jones
Guest

This is classic. Nice write up.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Funny what Hollywood considered “the basics” in 1990.

Kindergarten Cop
Joseph (age 5-6): Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.
Phoebe: [to Kimble] Well, I see you’ve covered the basics.

Matt
Guest
Matt

“Assigned at birth? You mean, like, by the hospital?” Yes. The hospital assigns sex at birth, that goes on your birth certificate, and that’s what you use if you ever need to prove your sex. For most people this never comes up, but in case it did there has to be some procedure. You don’t have to show them your wang or anything. I think you’re overreacting to a bit of bureaucrat-speak here. Now the second quoted line, that one is hopeless. Whatever your take on transgenderism and accommodations thereof, being considered transgender should require something more than “they say… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Matt said:

Yes. The hospital assigns sex at birth, that goes on your birth certificate, and that’s what you use if you ever need to prove your sex.

If they’re using the word “assigned” like “recorded” (as on the birth certificate) or “observed”, I would agree with you. But it’s not clear that that’s what they mean. I usually think of “assign” as involving a kind of decision that could legitimately go either way. The boss assigns task A to Smith and task B to Jones.

Would you be fine with saying that a baby’s weight is assigned at birth?

David Trounce
Guest

So Matt, you agree sex is such a stable phenomenon that it can be proved? But you deny that the nurse recorded the evidence.

burnedpeas
Guest
burnedpeas

“But, if you insist on your kid remaining there, then at least do some relative good by having your boys go out for the girls track team. Time to wreck women’s athletics for good and all. ”

I had the same idea.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

This letter just adds to Obama’s aura as a prophet among the liberals. They see it as him telling Pharaoh, “Let my people go wherever they want to!”

ashv
Guest
ashv

A helpful illustration: http://i.imgur.com/1WGNgM6.png

wtrsims
Member

#BringBackOurGirls