Endowed by Their Blind Evolutionary Process With Certain Alienable Privileges Which May or May Not Be Revoked at the Next Stage

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“Why should men be free? Why should they be treated with equity? Why should we govern ourselves democratically? The answers will vary depending on whether you believe that we evolved out of the primordial goo, or God put us here” (Empires of Dirt, p. 16).

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Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Pastor Wilson, You are so good on so many things, but you simply have a blind spot for American democracy that I will never understand. Why should they be treated with equity? If one believes God put us here, then they should know from both scripture and experience that men are not equal and should not be treated as such. Equity under the law? Certainly. But people never have been, and never will be equal. We should not treat them as such. Why should we govern ourselves democratically? The last 200 years of Western society have more or less shown… Read more »

PerfectHold
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PerfectHold

We “shouldn’t” govern ourselves democratically?

Not a proper option, even?

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Nope. We should be governed biblically.

PerfectHold
Guest
PerfectHold

Cast lots?

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Sure, have it at. It would probably have about the same results.

jonmnoel
Member

It might even be better.

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

LOL. Given the last couple of elections, it is beginning to feel like we might already be there! At least this time, the lot fell our direction.

ashv
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ashv

Given its track record and its incoherent foundation, no, not a proper option. (I don’t think there’s a Single Correct Biblical Answer to the question of governance and society, but this ain’t one of them.)

Rob Steele
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Rob Steele

Lewis says equality is medicine not food. In the eschaton we won’t need it but now we need it desperately.

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

I’ve never read that, so I don’t know the context. Reference?

In any case, having equal access to a God-given law is mandated by Scripture. Beyond that, only a fool thinks everyone is equal.

Rob Steele
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Rob Steele

Check it.

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Thanks

ashv
Guest
ashv

When Lewis is good, he’s very good, but when he’s not he’s often a mess. I suspect that sentiment got the better of him here; how else would he not see that equality in marriage law leads to expectation of equality in married life?

Robert Truelove
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Robert Truelove

With reference to equity, all men are ontologically equal as all are image bearers of God. It is in this respect that all should be treated with equity. This should be reflected in our laws and culture.

On the other hand, that all men are not the recipients of equal graces is easily observed.

Equity therefore does not mean that all men should have the same income, honor, and social standing. For a society to do so is actually contrary to both equity and reality.

ashv
Guest
ashv

With reference to equity, all men are ontologically equal as all are image bearers of God.

Do you believe the image-marring effects of sin are, necessarily, distributed equally? If so, why? If not, what does “ontologically equal” mean? Will there not be greater or lesser punishments and rewards in the world to come?

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

all men are ontologically equal You will need to tell me what this means before I bite. And yes, I know what ontology is. It is absolutely true that we all bear the image of God, but what pointing to a common trait has to do with equality is still unknown to me. We all have heads, too, but I can assure I got the short end of the equality stick in that regard. If you mean we all ought to be treated equally under the law, and are treated equally under God’s Law, then I have already conceded that.… Read more »

ashv
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ashv

I think the thing missing from discussions of “equality before the law” is that impartial treatment by the magistrate is based on humility; it’s an acknowledgement of ignorance. If it were possible to perfectly know the heart and mind of a man under judgement, that would be sufficient to base a decision on. But since a mortal judge cannot, we rely upon evidence, “probable cause”, “suspicion beyond a reasonable doubt”, etc., because a man likely to be guilty may be in fact innocent, and vice versa. Doesn’t have anything to do with equality, and even use of the term “equality… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

I agree that equality under the law is being used as a bait and switch for egalitarianism, but that doesn’t make it false. Your points are all true, as far as they go, regarding humility. But the bible is clear that we must give equal access to all before the law, as a reflection of the way in which God treats us all to the same judgment. Psalm 67:4 “Let the nations be glad and sing for joy, for you judge the peoples with equity and guide the nations upon earth.” Numbers 15:15: “For the assembly, there shall be one… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Deuteronomy 1:16-17 presupposes that there are both “small and great”, which destroys the egalitarian myth, but reinforces that they are all to be heard “alike” under the law. Here’s another passage to go along with those Durden offered. It refers to a new king coming to the throne. “Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he… Read more »

Jill Smith
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Jill Smith

Could it be an acknowledgment of sinful prejudice or pride as well as of ignorance? The best judge may need to struggle against his own tendencies to assume that a member of Class C is more likely to behave shamefully than a member of his own class A.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Maybe. But my point was about cases where that assumption would be correct.

Katecho
Member

No, Durden has misfired at Wilson here. Wilson doesn’t have a blind spot regarding American democracy. He is simply repeating back the rhetoric of the modern era; the rhetoric which tries to “make the world safe for democracy”. He is making them explain their standard. Wilson is in no sense granting their idol, or adopting democratic ideology. Wilson has spoken often against the pitfalls and tyrannies of democracy, and how the founding fathers warned us against mob rule, and how they gave us a republic as a way of rejecting democracy. Wilson has spoken against the spirit of “Demos” (the… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Well, perhaps I am wrong about Pastor Wilson. I am not above error.

But it really seems to me like he is saying that equality and democracy are inconsistent with evolutionary dogmas, which is true enough I suppose, but if we begin to see that we are put here by God, then we have a foundation for equality and democracy. That is where I disagree. The conclusion does not follow the premise.

If he is trying to say something other than that, he is really confusing then.

Katecho
Member

If someone were unfamiliar with the rest of Wilson’s views, I could see how they might misunderstand this short excerpt. Glad to see that Durden is willing to hold his conclusion loosely and reconsider.

Caleb E. Sanchez
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Caleb E. Sanchez

May we believe God evolved us out of the primordial goo?

Matt
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Matt

I don’t think you’re allowed to believe this, no.

FeatherBlade
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FeatherBlade

If you ignore the part where it is written that He formed man out of the dust of the earth, then sure.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Primordial dust? ;-)

Katecho
Member

Only if we ignore the part where it is written that Adam could find no suitable helpmate, and so God formed Eve from Adam’s rib.

Some Christians make such features of the account into throw-away, fairy-tale, filler with utterly no significance or relevance to anything. They don’t even make an effort to offer an allegory to explain its presence in the text.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Yeah, it may, but not in the way you mean it.

Let us reflect on this message for Christ The President Sunday.