America, Black and Blue

In the aftermath of this most recent series of tragic shootings — Minneapolis, Baton Rouge, and Dallas — the spiritual disarray of our nation is manifest in how we tend immediately to cluster into two groups. One identifies with anger at injustice and the other identifies with the need for order and calls urgently for unity.Black Cops

The unity our nation needs — and we do desperately need it — is not a “group hug” unity, and it is not that kind of unity with a Jesus shine put on it.

The message is not “Jesus could help us to like each other better,” although that would be a downstream consequence. The message we rather need to hear, and which the church needs to declare, is that “Jesus forgives our sins.”

Before we can have — black or white — unity in Christ the risen, we must have unity in Christ the crucified. But this means unity in sin. This is not going to happen unless we repent of our own sins. We need to repent of our white sins and repent of our black sins. To whatever extent you identify with any group, you must identify also with the sins of that group. This is not to the exclusion of identifying with their virtues or strengths, their culture or heritage. It is simply a shared gospel identification, and not a carnal identification.

We must find common ground in Adam. We must find common ground in our shared iniquity. That is the only way out. When we recognize that we are all one great mess in Adam, then we can by the grace of God shake hands in the second Adam — and only there.

The only true victim in all of this is Jesus Christ, and every color of fist drove the nails in. Let me be specific. What did Jesus die for?

“For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another” (Titus 3:3, ESV).

I am marking that last phrase — hated by others, and hating one another. That is what we are doing, right this minute. When sinners fight with other sinners, the problem is never one of finding a plausible target. The problem with the spirit of accusation is that it is diabolical and destructive, not that it is inaccurate. The flaming darts of the evil one frequently find a suitable target. But there is a difference between the condemnation offered by the devil and the spirit of conviction offered by the Spirit of God. They both strike at the darling sin, but one with a cudgel and the other with a surgeon’s scalpel.

So when it comes to race relations in America, absolutely no one has a right to a high horse.

There are many examples, but let me simply juxtapose just two. The iniquitous Middle Passage was the death of at least 2 million kidnapped Africans, and the ungodly enslavement of millions of others. The image of God in these slaves was rebelliously denied and arrogantly insulted by an ostensibly Christian civilization. We are still at it. Since Roe v. Wade around 57 million American children have been executed. Many of them had their bodies taken off to market and sold for parts. Over 15 million of them were black children — black children have been disproportionately targeted by this vicious business from the very beginning of it.

Not only so, but they were abandoned by their fathers, killed by their mothers, and sold by the ever-enterprising whites. Nothing has changed except the scale, which has gone up. In Africa, blacks sold blacks to whites, who knew how to make a profit off that kind of thing. We are doing the same thing now — blacks selling blacks to whites, who compensate for their massive guilt by making sure to buy fair trade coffee.

So back to black and white. To compare ourselves to the “other group” as though abominations were graded on a curve is like guards at Buchenwald sneering at the guards at Auschwitz for their manifest moral inferiority. Was not their slaughter count much higher?

The only thing we should do with our sins is mourn for them, repent of them. We do not get to compare them to the sins of the “others” as a means of justifying ourselves. The only justification of ourselves that any of us could possibly receive is the free grace that is offered through Jesus Christ — free grace to the undeserving.

In the meantime — of course — individual crimes and abuses of power must be handled with all the biblical principles of justice kept in mind. They must never be taken as a flash point excuse for hating another group. If a white man hates blacks because some good cops were randomly gunned down by a black man, he is simply demonstrating his need for a Savior. If a black man hates all whites because a bad cop abused his power and killed a black man, then he is simply demonstrating his deep unity with the white hater — their shared legacy in Adam. But it is not a unity to be proud of. It just demonstrates a shared need for the Savior of all mankind.

In short, there will never be unity in the crown without unity in the cross. We all need it, and no one needs it “less” than that other despised group does.

Lord willing, next week I hope to write on the neglected tribal aspect of all of this.

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Ben
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Ben

“To whatever extent you identify with any group, you must identify also with the sins of that group.” I’m not sure I can make sense of this statement, as there are people of my ethnicity with whom I share nothing in common other than the fact that we speak English. Ideologically, spiritually, morally, and intellectually, I consider them to be completely opposed to me in every way. When such people commit sins that are grounded in their perverse worldviews, how am I to identify with that? What if I speak out profusely against those very sins? Why should I self-flagellate… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I mostly agree with you, and I am looking forward to Doug’s promised column on how tribalism fits into this. I have trouble with the statement you quoted. I have a tendency, based on upbringing and experience, to identify more with cops than I do with lawbreakers (and I am not referring to any of the specific current cases). But I am quite willing to believe that there are cops who abuse their authority, who lie, and who hate racial minorities. I don’t see how my preference for cops over criminals leads me to share in the guilt of rogue… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

This is a very good look at the spiritual aspect of our country’s tumultuous race relations. Your forthcoming look at the tribal aspect will, I hope, involve the present cultural clash that is so relevant to anyone who is trying to figure out how to bring about peace with his neighbors. I’m thinking about phrases like media, gun control, Black Lives Matter, white guilt, Duke Lacrosse, rap music, fatherlessness, social media, and people like Trump, Obama, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Russell Moore, and John Piper.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

This is a very good look at the spiritual aspect of our country’s tumultuous race relations.

No, it isn’t. It’s pious sounding gibberish and political correctness.

Carson Spratt
Member

Make your case. You seem to be repeating yourself, which might point to a full mouth and an empty brain.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

lol

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Seriously, 40 Acres, how would you analyze the spiritual aspects of this appalling situation? If you were a pastor, what would you counsel your flock?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I wouldn’t even be worried about the “spiritual aspects” of a terrorist attack on 14 police officers, which killed five of them. Micah X. Johnson didn’t “spiritually” kill those cops. He actually killed them. Nor would I create a disgusting moral equivalency between that and what happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota. None of us know what happened in MN. The girlfriend claims the guy was acting entirely innocently. Were you there? I wasn’t. So I don’t know what happened. But I do know that several eyewitnesses to the Michael Brown shooting said he hadn’t done anything to the office… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

40 Acres, I am afraid you projected political correctness onto my argument. No; I’m not projecting anything. This article is hundreds of words of you arguing that there’s “sin” on both sides, we’re all at fault, all while refusing to make any distinction between the cold-blooded murder of five cops and the entirely justified killing of that violent would-be cop killer in Baton Rouge. While prattling on about Auschwitz, Planned Parenthood, Adam, slavery, and everything under the sun except the single most important fact in this entire discussion – that blacks have astronomical rates of crime and violence compared to… Read more »

ashv
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ashv

It can be simultaneously true that 1) cops habitually abuse power and unjustifiably shoot people, and 2) most of the people shot by cops needed shooting.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Right.

And we’re all sinners in need of a savior, and slavery was bad, and so was Hitler, and boy, isn’t that Planned Parenthood stuff some nasty business?

ashv
Guest
ashv

Eh, I’m sure some people will draw that muddled sort of conclusion. All I mean is that black dysfunction is real and cops are not your friends (largely as a systemic effect of black dysfunction being allowed by those in power).

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Eh, I’m sure some people will draw that muddled sort of conclusion. Yeah. Doug just did, as a matter of fact. But this article isn’t merely a “muddled sort of conclusion.” It’s a tendentious, deliberate obfuscation. Some would call it lying by omission. But I have no idea what the fact that some “cops habitually abuse power and unjustifiably shoot people” has to do with anything I said. I’ve never denied that some cops do that. But BLM says that Baton Rouge, Ferguson, Trayvon, and many, many more cases, were all examples of innocent black men being shot by racist… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

I mean that the original eyewitness claims about the Minnesota shooting were initially credible. (The additional information that has come out regarding that situation makes those claims highly doubtful now, of course.)

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I agree with you that on-duty cops are not our friends, but I disagree with you about the reason. Canada, with no significant racial problems–and the problems which do exist do not involve black people–reports episodes of overzealous cops abusing their power. I once watched an RCMP officer viciously kicking an indigenous person whose only offense was being dead drunk and virtually passed out. Just as occupations involving children will always be attractive to pedophiles,law enforcement will always attract a few bullies with anger problems.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Just as occupations involving children will always be attractive to pedophiles,law enforcement is attractive to bullies with anger problems. That’s true, jilly. But it’s also true that dealing with violent scumbags day in/day out has some serious effects on people. It’s moral insanity to say that cops should be “color-blind”, or have no racial biases. When you’re a cop, you deal with criminals. Many of them are vile, disgusting, evil creatures. In America, the overwhelming majority of criminals are brown and black. But cops are supposed to pretend otherwise? I once knew a man whose left-wing son graduated from college… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I agree that it is soul-destroying work. I think one can be a cop and remain civilized and law-abiding, but I don’t think a cop can remain idealistic and hopeful about humanity. I think that with what they see, most cops take a dim view of just about everybody. My LAPD friend told me she was glad she met me because she had no longer believed there were kind and gentle (well, most of the time) people out there. (She also told me that when people bring food to the police station, the cops say thank you and throw it… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

We should indeed have pity for them — just as we pity the child pitching a violent fit in public, who should have better caretakers than those who have fostered such behaviour.

John
Member

Did you sing one of your songs for her or show her pictures of your cats or both?????

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

About your second point, quite a few of the people killed in questionable shoots here in LA were the mentally ill of all races. I find this absolutely tragic. They have been typically unarmed but psychotic, and they get shot when they are unable to follow the cops’ instructions. I think we have no right to expect cops to be able to function as psychiatric nurses (although many of them do every day). Such people don’t need shooting but they do need to be in the mental hospitals we closed down a few decades ago.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Deinstitutionalisation has been bad for pretty much everyone, I’d agree.

Katecho
Member

By grading whites on a curve, 40 ACRES simply lends his full weight as a gift of credibility to all the racist accusations of the progressives. 40 ACRES wrote: The basic problem in all of this, which Doug refuses to address because the truth is racist, is that blacks commit violent crimes at astronomical rates compared to whites. 40 ACRES apparently has a different definition of astronomical than the average white person. Imagine 40 ACRES attempting to help God understand the “truth” of the problem. He might begin by informing God that, out of 100,000 people in the U.S., blacks… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Are you any relation to Christopher Casey?

Tim Schneider
Guest
Tim Schneider

I think you live in a cave and out of step with the militarization of Johnny Law. Do try to get up to speed.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/07/mailvox-police-officers-perspective.html?m=1

insanitybytes22
Member

Oh good grief. Don’t read that fool if you’re trying to get up to speed on anything.

ashv
Guest
ashv

He’s at least as entertaining as our host on this blog. :)

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Herp! Derp!

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Doug, your post is a word casserole of gibberish – heaps of pious-sounding irrelevancies, baptized political correctness, lazy platitudes, gushy sentimentalism, and lots of buzzwords, served up with large portions of fear and (wo)man-pleasing.

It no doubt sounds very spiritual to your fans, but it’s worse than useless. Not only does it not help solve anything, it exacerbates the problem while pretending to ameliorate it.

You can do much better.

Well, you could if you wanted to.

But I don’t think the want to is there.

John
Guest
John

Give me one specific part that you find “exacerbating the problem.”

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

The part that starts with In the aftermath and ends with aspect of all of this.

John
Guest
John

I try to have a constructive discussion by asking you a clarifying question and you respond with that. Why am I not surprised.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

LOL

insanitybytes22
Member

Well, I think it’s a lovely post that expresses some positive sentiments and shows us how to all come together at the foot of the cross. I would never label it “a word casserole of gibberish – heaps of pious-sounding irrelevancies,” but that said, I basically agree with you, something that makes me a bit nauseous.

John
Guest
John

This sums up my feelings about the whole situation very succinctly.

Ian Miller
Member

Thank you, Doug.

sean carlson
Guest
sean carlson

This is excellent. We dare not lose sight of the gospel’s power, not only to deal with us individually, but nationally also.

adad0
Member

“I am marking that last phrase — hated by others, and hating one another. That is what we are doing, right this minute.”

You were Doug? Really? Who were you hating?

I myself am not happy with some local felons, but I don’t hate them.
Besides, these particular felons happen to be wonder bread white, not unlike a certain candidate with email issues.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Wow!

When even “A dad” can see through Doug’s sophistry in trying to pass off his fear, political correctness, and virtue signaling as humility and spiritual profundity, and dares call him on it, you know it’s bad.

adad0
Member

Easy there 40 oz. ! My point was that Doug stopped at Titus 3:3, as if that is where everyone is at the moment, as opposed to where godly people are: Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Thanks for pointing people to the solution to the disease of sin, repentance found in the gospel. However, can you speak to the biblical mandate and ethic of pursuing social justice. Specifically as it relates to the current realities of our day? I think that is minimized here and let’s us in the white majority culture not adequately repent for the ways we contribute to the systemic injustices of our day. In other words, given who you are (and me btw), it would make more sense to drill down into the hideous nature of the sins of the majority culture… Read more »

adad0
Member

“Since Roe v. Wade around 57 million American children have been executed. Many of them had their bodies taken off to market and sold for parts. Over 15 million of them were black children — black children have been disproportionately targeted by this vicious business from the very beginning of it.”

That one was pretty hideous and cultural, right? No drilling needed either!

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

You and Doug are involved in the abortion business?

adad0
Member

“it would make more sense to drill down into the hideous nature of the sins of the majority culture that need repentance.” Ryan Sather

Proverbs 19:11
A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.
(especially when there is no offense)

To your question Ryan, abortion is a social justice culture sin that is being called out and exposed. It has always been opposed by godly people, who know that children are a blessing.

Doug and I, independent of each other, have opposed the abortion business.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I’m asking, what sort of things should we repent of doing/taking part in. Not what ills society that we can shake our finger at.

In other words, what can we do to make change.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

What do you think would help, Ryan?

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Three things:
1) intentional relationships across cultures
2) honest assessment of personal biases
3) empathy for pain in those different than me

Seeking to repent where love isn’t characterized in how I respond

Some quick thoughts off the top of my head

adad0
Member

R’, that Jilly is a gem is she not? One idea I imply is that we should not feel any false guilt about sins we have not commited or false guilt about problems we have not caused. Beyond that, God is working on our hearts, more than people are. I live in a multi ethnic neighborhood. On a day to day basis personal relations seem pretty good to me. For instance, while you and I have had our disagreements, and even spats. How much ill will have I shown you? I have certainly leveled some rebuke, though always with constructive… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

My only pushback, bc I agree all of this must stem from my heart, my home, etc…, I think we need to ask the question Jesus asked when it comes to our “home sphere”…who is my neighbor!

adad0
Member

That is a legitimate question!

And I think the spirit answers that question for us. The Church I attend has world wide mission efforts, in additon to local efforts.

Other churches and other individuals are led in different directions.

On the flip side, I happen to be a casualty of another local church and seminary that came up with an ungodly answer to that same question.

Hence my caution.

In any case, let’s thank God for a successful exchange here.!

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Amen

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think friendships across cultures are very helpful because it prevents you from demonizing whole groups. I also think it is essential for cops to have friends who are not in law enforcement but who appreciate what cops do for the community. When cops trust only one another (and I understand what leads them to do this), the rest of us start looking like the enemy.

Christopher
Member

“I think that is minimized here and let’s us in the white majority culture not adequately repent for the ways we contribute to the systemic injustices of our day.”

Who decides what adequate repentance is?

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Hopefully, if we are biblical, the Bible will inform and the Holy Spirit will enable and produce the repentance we need.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Enough.

Your SJW play for guilt will not work. It is over.

fp
Guest
fp

Sather blathered:

“However, can you speak to the biblical mandate and ethic of pursuing social justice[?]”

No. There is no Biblical mandate for pursuing “social justice”. There is, however, a Biblical mandate against lying. I’d ask you to speak to it, but I’m afraid you’re not qualified.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I’m not shocked, you don’t read your Bible do you. If you did, you’d understand what I’m talking about.

Here’s some help from Rev. Keller on what I’m referring to:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/practical-faith/what-biblical-justice

fp
Guest
fp

Again with the lying. Rev. Keller is conflating two separate concepts, justice and charity. Among other things, Keller misrepresents Matthew 6:1-2 (it does not say what he says it says) and mis-defines “social justice”. Here, let me help you with the definition of “social justice”, from those who know it best: The folks at Wikipedia: Social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. What is this “economic egalitarianism”? We need to flesh this out some more. Again, the experts… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I think I’ll go with Rev. Keller on this one, meaning I’ll go with the Bible. Rather than “fp” and his misinformed fears and wildly crazy accusations against Rev. Keller.

fp
Guest
fp

Rev. Keller barely quoted from the Bible, and when he did, he misrepresented it. The Bible says nothing of “social justice”; if it did, you’d stop appealing to human authority of go straight to the Ultimate Authority.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Keller used an infinite amount more of Scripture than you did. Which is to say, you used none. Have a great night…maybe read Matthew 7 tonight and do some soul searching brother.

fp
Guest
fp

Sather, you definitely are daft. You should know that you can’t prove a negative. I had no scriptures regarding “social justice” because there are none. I do find it instructive that you can’t seem to come up with any either, since you’re the one who claimed there’s a Biblical mandate for social justice.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Micah 6:8 would be a good place to start.
1 Cor 13 would give a very helpful starting point for how to treat people.
The hundreds of verses in the Bible that outline God’s heart for the poor and our call as his children to care for the poor and vulnerable.
Did you read Keller’s article? What on earth is there to disagree with in what he outlines as a Christian, biblical ethic for how to approach biblical justice?

You seem angry and scared, those aren’t of the Lord and don’t promote the bond of peace brother.

fp
Guest
fp

Brilliant move, Sather. Go for attacking the person. That always works, doesn’t it? But, as it turns out, I know my state of mind better than you do, and right now I’m having fun. Anger and fear are the furthest things from my mind. Micah 6:8 is talking about real justice, which isn’t even in the same universe as “social justice”. Oh, and it’s talking about mercy; theft isn’t merciful. Since that was one verse, I’ll only count one strike. Regarding I Cor. 13, remember the part where it says, “Love rejoices in the truth”? Strike two. You have one… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I’m talking about real justice, I’m advocating for us to embrace truth (even if it makes your Fox News buddies puke), and I’m not playing a game of baseball…so good night fp, you have no desire to engage. You are, in your language, a non biblical fearful twit. Peace. (And in case you’re wondering, don’t bother looking up the Wikipedia definition of peace…I’m not using that definition ????

fp
Guest
fp

Sather, you are so predictable. If you knew me, you’d know I don’t watch Fox news nor read their website. If you read anything I wrote, which I’m betting you didn’t, you’d also know that I never called you fearful, and it was progressives as a group that I called twits, but since you apparently identify with progressives…

Sather, you and the truth have a pretty strained relationship. Before you go advocating for anyone to embrace truth, you might try getting to know it better yourself first.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Oh for reading comprehension to be something adults were required to have.

fp
Guest
fp

Right now I’m laughing, Sather. Progressives are nothing if not masters of projection.

Zachary Hurt
Guest

Maybe Wikipedia is a tool of leftist propaganda, but they do have some useful articles…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect

ashv
Guest
ashv

Justice is the opposite of “social justice”.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Didn’t the Catholics have their brand of SJW back in the 70’s and 80’s where the priests/bishops argued for communism using the Bible?

I forget what it was called.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Back then it was known as liberation theology.

Now it’s just called Reformed theology.

Jane
Member

Liberation theology.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

BTW, definitions grabbed from Wikipedia seem very fitting for this place don’t they? I mean they’re a great source for plagiarism, right?

fp
Guest
fp

Sather, are you daft? Wikipedia is maintained by a bunch of leftists; who better to get definitions of leftist concepts such as “social justice” than from them?

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Social justice is biblical. You can get the definition of a rainbow at Wikipedia too…but it won’t be helpful. Stick to the Word son.

fp
Guest
fp

Leadership by example. It’s a wonderful trait. Learn it.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Three actions to consider in light of our current reality in our country, all biblical and practical. Fantastic advice from Dr. Anthony Bradley:
1) Lament
2) Listen
3) Pray

Sadly, instead of being biblical we white evangelicals like to bring up Hillary and abortion. No wonder we are where we are as a country.

Here’s the article to consider: https://world.wng.org/2016/07/lamenting_listening_praying_and_participating_our_way_to_change?utm_content=buffer6ec00&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

fp
Guest
fp

Red herring. Nice attempt at saving face, though.

adad0
Member

R’, just to surf our recent functional agreement, and conversation,

Corrupt politicians and corrupt a-medical policies are issues that cry out for justice,
just as much as any other issue.

Who are we to say, that people who are passionate about these things, are not obeying their personal call from the Word and the Spirit?

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I have no problem with that…but not in this context. It’s like a friend is dying of cancer and I express to them how important it is for them to care about the obesity epidemic in America.

My issue isn’t with the issues. I actually can’t stand the things Hillary has/is doing. And I can’t stand abortion. I abhor it. And I think in how I spend my career we are able to fight abortion on a different front (another conversation for another day).

timothy
Guest
timothy

As we reported two weeks ago, under Obama, background checks for guns
reached 141.4 million through the end of May, amounting to sales of
about 52,600 a day, according to the FBI… And 2016 is on pace to
surpass last year’s record.

1. We are lamenting the descent into civil war; being just, we will do our duty and fight it to win it. We are a Christian people and we will preserve our country.

2. We are listening; we hear you Marxist’s loud and clear. We know your fruits, we know what spirit you are of.

3. We pray without ceasing.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

“Preserve our country”
Do tell…
I thought we were strangers here, aliens, belonging to a heavenly kingdom.

Silly me, again expecting biblical literacy here.

timothy
Guest
timothy

God gave us earthly government; it is a good. So yes, I and many millions more will be acting to preserve the good that God bequeathed us–for ourselves and our posterity.

Your progressivism is the anti-thesis of the Liberty we where given in Him. Your “solutions” only breed more chaos. Your Cultural Marxism is an evil we will defeat.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Actually, in Romans 13 St. Paul specifically engaged the Romans to “buy into” and build their government.

The root stem translated as “be subject to” is tass and it is military in origin meaning “the lining up of armies for battle”

“Be subject”-> “be deployed under”
“Have been instituted->”have been deployed under”
“Resist” ->”deployed against”
“Has appointed” ->”has deployed through.

In doing this, St. Paul was appealing to Christians to “buy into” their government at a time when citizens loathed the government but loved their military.

In essence, your “either/or” distinction is ridiculous. Our duty is a “both/and” duty.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

When SJWs like Keller talk about our obligation to help widows and orphans, they’re being dishonest.

They’re not really advocating that we help widows and orphans.

They want us to help sluts and their bastards.

But sluts and bastards aren’t widows and orphans, and a Christian society won’t pretend that they are, nor will it treat them similarly.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

You don’t know Jesus if you haven’t seen yourself as a sinner who befriends sinners.

It amazes me Wilson allows this filth to be propagated on his blog.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

You don’t know Jesus if you haven’t seen yourself as a sinner who befriends sinners.

How many ballgames have you been to with your local abortionist lately?

How many backyard bbq’s have you attended at the home of the local KKK leader?

How many wacky birthday cards did you send Fred Phelps?

Yeah, that’s what I thought.

Hypocrite.

bethyada
Member

You may be able to make a semblance of an argument concerning women who become solo mums through sinful choices, but you cannot make it about their children. “Bastard” is an insult to the father, not the son.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

The illegitimacy crisis solved!

Turns out, there’s no such thing as illegitimacy!

Nice!

bethyada
Member

Nonsense, of course there is illegitimacy. But it is hardly the fault of the child!

Sluts may not be parallel to widows but there is some similarity to orphans and bastards. The fatherless are the fatherless.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

The fatherless are the fatherless.

Yes, they are. Kids whose fathers are dead are kids whose fathers are dead.

Unlike the fatherless, however, bastards have fathers. Their fathers just don’t care about them.

Nor do their mothers, or they wouldn’t have had a bastard in the first place.

bethyada
Member

Exactly. So just God cares about the orphans because they are vulnerable, likewise he cares about the bastards.

You said sluts and bastards aren’t widows and orphans. Yet from a biblical perspective God cares about the bastards the way he cares about the orphans. You insult the illegitimate children by calling them bastards yet God loves the orphans and by analogy loves the bastards.

insanitybytes22
Member

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but sluts don’t become sluts all alone.

Let’s look at our perverse modern definitions of manhood, shall we? One affirms their masculinity by becoming someone’s baby daddy and eventually going out in a bang of glory by clashing with authority. Then to farther prove male stupidity, you try to blame the whole thing on so called “sluts.”

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

lol

insanitybytes22
Member

Than, to just drive the stupidity home, one can go on the internet and learn that being a man is really just all about the lolz.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

That was really hurtful.

JP Stewart
Member

Or how the sins of women can be blame-shifted away.

insanitybytes22
Member

An ironic projection if ever there was one. I accidentally fell in a man hole, became a baby daddy, and got myself shot by the cops? Must be a woman’s fault.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Here’s a final quote from the article that I think sums up what I’m saying,

“If you are trying to live a life in accordance with the Bible, the concept and call to justice are inescapable. We do justice when we give all human beings their due as creations of God. Doing justice includes not only the righting of wrongs but generosity and social concern, especially toward the poor and vulnerable.”

Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/mpractical-faith/what-biblical-justice#AJW1x4M0fDHAo62O.99

timothy
Guest
timothy

Justice also implies treating people justly. That means when they do very bad things, dealing with them justly.

Sometimes, being just means treating evil people harshly. Yes, Marxists and commies are evil.

Justice does not mean whipping ourselves when the other person does wrong.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Yes, but we must do this intelligently. Giving all human beings their due as creations of God cannot be used as a pretext for programs that destroy a person’s independence and take away any motive for accomplishing productive work.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Who is advocating for that? Other than liberals who are godless.

ashv
Guest
ashv

“Social justice” is the fashionable name for what used to be called “communism”. It is a false religion that adopts the language and poses of modern Christianity in order to oppose the gospel and devour the people of God.

(If you believe my definition to be incorrect, Sather, I invite you to explain what “social justice” means.)

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Read the article I shared by Keller that outlines what I’m referring to as biblical justice.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I can see what the Bible says about justice. I’m not talking about that.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Ok, well then we agree.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Excellent. Please apologise to fp for slandering him.

Christopher
Member

The bible and society don’t agree on what justice is, you can’t have social justice and biblical justice. Pick one.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Did you read the article? I’m saying, biblical justice has implications that flow into the society it is practiced in (the liberals love to avoid talking about how Christians are the ones building hospitals, caring for the sick in hard places, etc.). Therefore biblical justice expresses itself to the world in tangible, societal, ways. In so doing, you get a very different “social justice” when it is being lived out by followers of Jesus, rather than acquiescing and allowing the state to “handle the poor”. In a very real sense, the states godless attempt at assisting the poor is not… Read more »

Christopher
Member

“However, I assumed here, that we were discussing a follower of Christ’s response to our current realities.”

You were talking about the “adequate repentance” of the white majority, (and plaigerism for some reason) then accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being biblicaly illiterate.

If you have any concrete suggestions for the current realities we can discuss them.

Zachary Hurt
Guest

Thank you for the reminder of what is really at issue here (i.e. sin). It is good to be called up short from trying to sort out blame in these situations. Right and wrong in each particular situation should be sorted out by people appraised of the actual facts (e.g. a jury), not folks like myself appraised only of the actual news story. And more importantly, the right and wrong of particular acts of violence somewhere in the U.S.A. has no bearing on my own responsibility to repent for my own sins which are, in conjunction with everyone else’s, the… Read more »

Caleb Wallace
Guest
Caleb Wallace

BAM! Couldn’t have said it better myself!

ashv
Guest
ashv

To talk about the “unity our nation needs” is to ignore, once again, that American is not a single nation, but many. We do desperately need the unity that the Gospel brings — but remember that this is a unity that is often expressed through the maintenance and erection of borders.

Daithi_Dubh
Guest
Daithi_Dubh

And continuing to proceed on a false premise (or an inaccurate definition of a term, namely, “nation”) is to condemn oneself to ever more frustration and even disaster! I can be unified with my brother according to the Gospel yet not demand that he live out that gospel in precisely the same way as I do in my home, my church, my community, or even my (actual) nation-state!

All together now, everyone, repeat after me: “America is an empire!”

Dave
Guest
Dave

Ryan attempts to link Social Justice Warriors and the Social Justice theme to scripture, however, that is a false comparison. Social Justice involves stealing from one group to supposedly repay injury to another group. In short it is a form of theft. Attempts to right perceived wrongs have all failed and responsible black leaders spoke numerous times against these attempts pointing out that in fact the attempts harmed the poor more than they helped. The Bible has numerous ways of helping the poor, but allowing them to spend the hard earned money given them by tax payers for drugs and… Read more »

bethyada
Member

The problem with “social justice” is that it has a very secular and at times anti-biblical meaning. It is usually associated with a state response rather than a private one.

I thought Keller’s article on the whole was okay if one reads it as a personal challenge rather than advocacy for the state to become socialist. Much of the arguing here may be at cross purposes if some are arguing for more personal responses to the marginalised (especially the oppressed) and others are reacting against variants of liberation theology.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think that worse than financing the purchase of beer has been the destruction of the black family, an unintended result of the war on poverty.

bethyada
Member

an unintended result of the war on poverty

And yet a very predictable one.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

an unintended result of the war on poverty.

A few years ago I would have definitely agreed with the “unintended” part of that. Now, not so sure.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I think that worse than financing the purchase of beer has been the destruction of the black family, an unintended result of the war on poverty. The “welfare destroyed the black family” notion is largely a cuckservative myth. It’s been promulgated by the same chumps who solemnly intone that blacks are the biggest victims of affirmative action. Blacks have always had very high rates of premarital sex, cohabitation, sexual promiscuity, adultery, bastardy, cuckoldry, venereal disease, divorce, desertion, etc. Nominal marriages may have been more numerous decades ago than they are now, but sexual fidelity, for either spouse, was never a… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

But welfare gave single moms a financial incentive not to marry. A lot of women, if they were totally honest, would probably say that they would rather be supported by Uncle Sam than by the man they happened to marry!

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Let’s just be honest about what you’re saying, jilly.

What you’re saying is that blacks are so unbelievably stupid, so utterly unable to understand the consequences of their actions, so bereft of any ability to forgo short term pleasure to avoid long term pain, and have so little regard for the kind of life their offspring will have, that they’re willing to condemn their children to horrible lives, and destroy their communities, for some food stamps and a few bucks in welfare.

If I said that people would call me a Nazi.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

The behavior you describe is that of a permanent underclass who have no investment in society, who are repeating the dreary, dead-end conduct that has been modeled for them, who have no hope for the future and who therefore will not plan for it, who have been infantilized by welfare, and made vicious by idleness. I don’t think that the makeup of this class is determined by race. When George Orwell described the deleterious effects of a lifetime on the dole in “The Road to Wigan Pier,” he was writing about lower-class white Britons. Nations with no significant black population… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Jilly, maybe you missed it, but 80% of all blacks are born out of wedlock.

We’re not talking about “the black underclass.”

We’re talking about the vast majority of blacks.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I will mull and brood on this matter. I am off to Disneyland today with my Special Snowflake where, once we have got past the metal detector and the bomb/drug sniffing dogs, we will all hold hands and sing “It’s a Small World (after all).”

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

You know Walt Disney was a big time Jew-hater, right?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

That has been spread as a rumor, but his family has released documents denying it. I believe he probably used ethnic slurs against Jews; in the 1940s a lot of people did. From the website Skeptoid.com: Walt Disney’s more cultivated congenial public image is portrayed as a sham but was it? Biographer Neal Gabler, the first writer to gain unrestricted access to the Disney archives, concluded that available evidence did not support accusations of antisemitism. Floyd Norman, an African-American active in anti-prejudice organizations did not think Disney was a racist. He was hired by the Disney studio in the 1950s… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Interesting.

Thanks.

Katecho
Member

40 ACRES hasn’t been called a Nazi? I’m shocked.

Still, he continues to shred his own credibility by suggesting that the temptations and demoralizing affects of government welfare only apply to blacks.

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Guest
Conserbatives_conserve_little

Don’t forget to address the other ethnic groups

Andrew Lohr
Member

When God prescribed prisons (He majored in restitution, with some corporal and some capital punishment), He prescribed “cities of refuge.” In a city, family life and business life can be carried on, even if you can’t leave and even if (?) you don’t get to elect the town elders. That’s different from and better than modern prisons. Try an updated version?

Dave
Guest
Dave

The cities of refuge were not prisons but were set up specifically for a specific situation not for armed robbery, breaking and entering and such. Do we need a new model for prisons? Yes. Is the City of Refuge a good example? No.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Doug Wilson says: The only true victim in all of this is Jesus Christ That’s right, folks. The only victim in this recent “series of tragic shootings” was Jesus. The five murdered cops in Dallas? The nine others who got shot but didn’t die? Doug says they weren’t victims. Why? He won’t come out and say it, but here’s why – because most of the murdered cops were white. In Doug’s religion, a syncretism of traditional Christianity with the religion of Anti-racism, victimhood is holiness; it’s sainthood. And white people are evil, and can never be regarded as holy. And… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

I don’t really like portraying Jesus Christ as a victim either, it robs Him of His power,it fails to recognize the sacrificial nature of His deliberate act, one many of us believe was already planned and known back in Genesis. A victim is a somewhat unwitting bug on somebody’s wind shield. God took charge of His creation and Christ purposefully laid down His life for us. He is now seated in victory. I don’t know why we can’t just say a bad man did a bad thing. Evil is a real thing in the world, it’s all around us and… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Doug says they weren’t victims.

Against thee, thee only [God], have I sinned
— King David

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Against thee, thee only [God], have I sinned — King David Yeah, that’s right. The sniper didn’t sin against those cops. They’re not murder victims. It’s just Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, and you and him walking together in the garden alone, hand in hand, while the dew is still on the roses, and he’s just sooooo dreamy. 14 dead and injured cops line the walkway, but you don’t even see them, because you’re so very spiritual, and you’re just goo goo eyed for Jesus, and even if you did notice 14 bleeding cops, so what, because isn’t Jesus just dreamy, and,… Read more »

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

Um, you’re giving us PR advice. Thanks but no.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Isn’t Jesus just dreamy?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I don’t think that’s supposed to be literal. It’s like in the old days when every major crime was prosecuted as having been against the peace and good order of our sovereign lady the queen. It didn’t make the actual victim any less a victim. Every crime is a crime against our Lord. But, if he actually was saying that the cops slaughtered in cold blood were not true victims, I disagree with him.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I don’t think that’s supposed to be literal. It’s like in the old days when every major crime was prosecuted as having been against the peace and good order of our sovereign lady the queen. It didn’t make the actual victim any less a victim. Every crime is a crime against our Lord. Well, then why does he never talk about Jesus being the only victim of Planned Parenthood when he’s denouncing them for aborting black babies? Why didn’t he talk about Jesus being the only victim of Dylan Roof in the Charleston murders? He didn’t say, “the assassination of… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I remember when he said something similar about rape victims, and I disagreed with it. Yes, I understand. I thought he was asserting a theological truism that Jesus is always the first and primary victim of any human sin. I agree with you that, in order to be consistent, this truism should be reiterated any time Wilson comments on a crime. I think that murder is supposed to be particularly heinous because it destroys the image of God. I believe that. But I think that would be small comfort to the relatives of the murder victim who need to see… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I don’t think that’s supposed to be literal.

Well, what other parts of the article would you say Doug didn’t really mean?

The part about slavery being bad?

Abortion being bad?

The Nazis were bad?

The part about how we’re all descended from Adam?

The part about Jesus dying for sins?

What are your rules for deciding when Doug actually means what he writes, and which parts we can say, “Oh, c’mon – you know what he really meant!”

bethyada
Member

Doug said “only true victim”. Why do you think he put “true” in there?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I had no idea why until I read Demo D’s explanation. Jesus, according to somebody, is the only true victim because He is the only sinless person. I wonder if this is a Calvinist doctrine I have never heard of. But I think it sounds heartless and could hardly give comfort to the oppressed or the bereaved. “I am sorry your child was murdered. But your child isn’t the victim here. Jesus is.” “Too bad about all your relatives being killed in the Cambodian genocide. But you need to be aware they were not true victims. After all, even the… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

It is a Calvinist doctrine, but not only a Calvinist doctrine. Besides pointing to the true enough fact that we are all sinners, I think what Doug was saying points to our tendency toward self-righteousness in our indignation at other people’s wrong doing. The overarching subject of Doug’s post was not child murder or Cambodian genocide, it was “the spiritual disarray of our nation… manifest in how we tend immediately to cluster into two groups”. Two self-righteously indignant groups.

Christopher
Member

Dougs “no true victim but Jesus” applies to all the people shot in all the recent shootings, not just the white police officers.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Dude, have another Percocet.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I wish.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Pretty sure Wilson has Girard on his mind here. But that’s an explanation not an excuse.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I don’t understand the Girard reference. Can you expand on that?

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

Against you, you only, have I sinned. The murder victim, not so much.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Jesus…he’s sooo dreamy!

Guest
Guest
Guest

An honest question(s) from an outsider: for those that disagree with the author, what do you think is the solution to the problem, how would you propose implementing your solution, and what would the end goal look like? Look forward to your answers.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Black nationalism. (If a man can be a feminist, white people can be black nationalists, right?)

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Biblical justice has implications that flow into the society it is practiced in (the liberals love to avoid talking about how Christians are the ones building hospitals, caring for the sick in hard places, etc.). Therefore biblical justice expresses itself to the world in tangible, societal, ways. In so doing, you get a very different “social justice” when it is being lived out by followers of Jesus, rather than acquiescing and allowing the state to “handle the poor”. In a very real sense, the states godless attempt at assisting the poor is not social justice at all. It hurts the… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

For those of you claiming that the accusations against the police are manufactured, you obviously have a very selective way of looking at events. There are plenty of videos showing cops shooting people that are not only unarmed but running away. If you want to argue that these abuses are rare or that they are not based on racism, do that…. but stop pretending the abuse does not exist. I actually know police harassment happens personally because I was totally innocent and minding my own business once with my kids and had a cop approach me, ask me questions, get… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

For those of you claiming that the accusations against the police are manufactured, you obviously have a very selective way of looking at events.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, cops do often abuse their power and injure/kill innocents. This doesn’t change the fact that most people that get shot by police needed shooting.

And those of you who consider yourselves freedom loving constitutionalists (as I do) : Why are you so ok with unchecked power?

I don’t consider myself one of those, so I merely ask: Checked by what?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Checked by restricted power and accountability from other human beings.

ashv
Guest
ashv

“Restricted power” is still oddly passive-voice. Who does the restricting? Is it not true that another word for “ability to restrict” is… “power”?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

The bible says that you cannot be convicted except by two or three witnesses. Why is that? Well, one person can be a liar or a vindictive person…. or just crazy. There is a safety in having multiple witnesses be required. More than one person will create a lower likelihood of a wrongful conviction. That principle is why we do not allow unfettered power for individuals. A king can be a tyrant. It is much harder to get a president, congress and the courts to all become tyrants together (and in the same way). Now, of course, this nation has… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

It is much harder to get a president, congress and the courts to all become tyrants together

Poppycock. They have manifestly done so. Why do you think it was hard to do?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

It took them a century. Theodore Roosavelt was as bad as Obama (and FDR was probably worse) but it took until now to get the court in their pocket (and they still have the governors and congress opposing them).

ashv
Guest
ashv

A century? It only took them 72 years.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Haha. Ok. My point is that TR as king would have been as bad as our current state. Glad that you got detracted with the math.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I wasn’t talking about Roosevelt. (And yes, America was founded by liberals, and the USA has always been a liberal state.)

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Well, if they were liberals they did a pretty crap job of implementing their liberalism. The US has the highest church attendance in the western world. We are one of the few nations still having a conversation on abortion. We are one of the few western nations with large chunks of the population still speaking against gay marriage and we have a nation that acts in a Christian way in any number of other capacities (giving, NGO behavior etc) that no other western nation behaves. In short, our nation compared to England (who we broke off with) or France (who… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

This is roughly akin to doubting Typhoid Mary could infect anyone else because she didn’t show symptoms of the disease. The (largely apostate/atheist) elite that built the liberal structure of the USA diverged a bit from the various nations they governed — which was a major element behind the Civil War. England and the USA took similar paths because the success of the American Revolution was a result of the triumph of the Whigs over the Tories on both sides of the ocean. The American elite encouraged and assisted the French revolutionaries. (And this doesn’t even touch on how FDR… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

You are insane. The government we broke off from has had lower church attendance and more liberal and socialist policies for many years and you complain that our problems relate to the “liberals” who made the break? That is clear mental confusion on your part. If you are right and the people who set up our system were liberals, they clearly did a horrible job of liberalizing us. They should have just stuck with England’s system that was much more effective at liberalizing the UK than the USA was.

ashv
Guest
ashv

You’re ignoring everything else that’s happened since then. The loss of a large number of high-quality men in WW1 is a blow that England never recovered from, for example.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

So, which country has stayed more conservative than the USA? Which country shows that the “liberals” who founded our nation did anything but fail spectacularly?

ashv
Guest
ashv

Conservatism is a branch of liberalism, just as progressivism and libertarianism are.

Who has resisted liberalism the most? Russia and China, perhaps. And they didn’t make it through the 20th century unscathed.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Haha. I love it. Conservatism is liberalism. 1984 much? You understood the question but obviously you are not honest enough to answer it. If you think the founders of the USA had liberal objectives, my argument is that they did a horrible job with that given that there are no examples of historic Christians countries that are less liberal than the USA. I asked for counter examples and you respond with nuspeak.

Katecho
Member

It’s important to realize that we are dealing with two cynics in ashv
and 40 ACRES. It’s the kind of cynicism that devours its natural
allies, and can’t offer solutions that are able to stand up to their own brand
of cynicism for even one minute. Cynicism gone to seed becomes sophomoric.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Russia and Poland are good modern examples.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Haha??? What? You do realize Russia went full blown Communist for 70 years right? What are you talking about. Further, modern Russia has church attendance of 7% and is mostly socialist in its government. Unrestricted abortion. And it is perhaps the most corrupt nation in the western world. Nice example. Poland also went communist. Further, Poland remains damn near socialist (one of the least free economies in the western world) and while church attendance is a bit higher (although lower than 1960s USA) it is dropping – and it Catholic. To their credit abortion is illegal but plenty of Poles… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Yes, Russia went “full blown Communist for 70 years”. But unlike America, after a while stopped moving leftward. (For instance, homosexuality was officially labelled as a disease.) Today Russia has made pro-sodomite propaganda illegal and its government acts to protect the interests of the church.

“Socialism” and “free-market capitalism” are both liberal inventions. American communism and Russian communism had their differences, but they are branches off the same tree.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Same sex activity is legal in russia. They have not legalized gay marriage yet but neither had the US 3 years ago. Your evidence that russia is the bulwark against liberalism is that on one issue they are three years behind us?

I am curious. Have you really not thought things through this much? Is this really the first time you have critically looked at your own insane opinions?

ashv
Guest
ashv
Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Haha. You get it handed to you showing your ignorance about history, Russia, Poland and etc….. and you respond with nonsense. Thinking hurts doesn’t it?

Katecho
Member

My take on ashv is that he is reacting, reflexively and hastily, to the excesses of American cultural decadence. This reflex leads him to repudiate liberty, freedom of association and speech, representative government, immigration, etc, etc, in favor of something more hard lined and totalitarian. He is falsely identifying our liberties as the cause of our downfall, as if removal of rights and freedoms will preserve us and restrain us from evil. It’s like someone who sees that the love of money is the root of all manner of evil, and so proposes that elites take everyone’s money away. Ashv… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

If you’re serious about wanting something more than just dyspeptic internet comments, I recommend Sir Henry Maine’s Popular Government as a starter. https://archive.org/details/populargovernme01maingoog

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Is Putin dedicated to religious freedom for all branches of Christianity in Russia or is he primarily dedicated to the Russian Orthodox church? I would think Protestant Christians would find alarming his suggestions about a political structure that enshrines the role of the RO. Would you be willing to give Christians an official role within the US government but only on condition that those Christians were Catholic?

ashv
Guest
ashv

No, because most of the USA isn’t historically Catholic. I wouldn’t think it strange if Louisiana did that, though.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Why do you think conservatism is not a branch of liberalism? That hero of conservatives, Edmund Burke, was a Whig. Conservatives are people who accept the presuppositions of liberalism but dislike its conclusions.

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote: Conservatives are people who accept the presuppositions of liberalism but dislike its conclusions. ashv is giving us the definition of conservatism from the Cynic’s Dictionary. Sometimes this can be helpful, so long as the contrast points us back to a real distinction and definition, in a constructive way. But we don’t see that from ashv. He is simply throwing conservatism, whole, under the same bus that he throws everything else. What principle or ally is left for him to stand beside? He’s an island of open-eyed awareness in a sea of compromise and muddled blindness, but we can… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

I once thought of you as an ally, katecho, but the past couple months have revealed your true colours. What principles do I have? Love for Christ, his church, my family, nation, and home — and unyielding opposition to the false religion of liberalism. What allies do I have? My forefathers who worked to provide the blessings I enjoy today, those men who wrote and spoke against the encroachment of liberalism on Christendom for the past few centuries, and the ones who today haven’t yet surrendered to it. If you don’t like my definition of “conservatism”, I kindly request you… Read more »

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote: I once thought of you as an ally, katecho, but the past couple months have revealed your true colours. As I was saying, cynicism devours natural allies. Wilson was once an ally too, before he was sacrificed on the altar of the left-right paradigm and labeled as a progressive liberal by ashv. ashv wrote: What principles do I have? Love for Christ, his church, my family, nation, and home — and unyielding opposition to the false religion of liberalism. I would suggest that love for Christ and for His Church does not look like dressing down a pastor… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

That is Nuspeak. You are redefining terms. Liberalism and conservatism in modern language mean different things and are different branches of political ideology. I like that you live in a crazy world where you get to say things like conservatism is liberalism but that makes you insane… you realize that right?

ashv
Guest
ashv

“Liberalism” gets used by Americans to mean “progressivism”, sure. But do you object to the statement “Conservatism adheres to the principles of classical liberals”?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

I think conservatism in modern language means supporting pro life abortion laws, opposing gay agenda, and then a free market agenda on fiscal issues (domestic and trade). Liberal in modern terms means supporting abortion (at all stages), supporting gay (and trans and whatever) agenda, and pushing for a more socialist (if not communist) agenda fiscally. Those are two very different definitions. You confounding them shows poor communication abilities and obfuscates all efforts at discussion. Which makes sense because you clearly have not thought out your positions well, do not know history, and have a very confused view of world politics… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

By the way, did you know that the allies paid for prostitutes to go out to the front for the men? Europe was liberal well before WWI.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Of course. So was America. Liberalism has been the primary temptation of Christendom since the days of the Reformation.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Do you have evidence that the USA sent prostitutes to the front lines in WWI? I have never heard that before. Please send a link.

You continue to claim that our founders were liberals leading to our current problems but you fail to offer any counter examples. Probably because there are none. It sucks to be historically illiterate doesn’t it.

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote:

The loss of a large number of high-quality men in WW1 is a blow that England never recovered from, for example.

This is ironic. I thought it was ashv’s position that real power rests in politics to lead the culture, and not the other way around. But here he suggests that there was a large cultural loss that was so significant that England has still not recovered from the blow. Apparently the politicians, with all their power, couldn’t lead the culture back.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Who sent those men to their deaths? Who pushed the culture further into liberal insanity afterwards?

Political power is held by men. Obviously, their beliefs and desires shape how that power is used — but a primary way it’s used is to control what people can and can’t say in public. So there’s a bit of a feedback loop between culture and power, but this in no way implies that culture-war activism is an effective means of changing how political power is used.

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote: Who sent those men to their deaths? Is ashv supposing that these “high-quality men” were actually just gullible pawns, blindly and thoughtlessly conscripted by a powerful elite? I thought his entire point was that these were “high-quality men”, leaders and thinkers, rather than followers, easily herded like cattle to the slaughter. Ashv can’t have it both ways. Why should we believe they were of such high-quality? ashv wrote: … this in no way implies that culture-war activism is an effective means of changing how political power is used. I realize that ashv is awash in cynicism and equivocation,… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think it is possible that female and universal male suffrage would not have come as quickly had it not been for the war, but don’t you think the election of the first Labor government in 1924 was inevitable? It had been making steady progress over the previous decade. Do you think it is possible for a government to sustain, long term, political liberalism and social conservatism? The Labor Party was born from the coalition of the trade unions and the Methodists, and it was often ridiculed as the party of prudishness. This was at a time when adultery, for… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

If I started believing things were inevitable, I’d lose hope entirely. ;-) If you mean that the holders of power in 1924 England were in no spiritual condition to prevent further liberalisation, then yes, certainly.

I don’t think liberalism is sustainable long term, so no.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Now, of course, this nation has turned liberal and we have given too much power to the courts

LOL

Says the commie who thinks violent thugs are entitled to a fighting chance to assault cops and get away when they’re arrested.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

As a Henry Hazlett fanboy, I find it funny that you, a Trump fan boy, have the lack of self awareness to call me a commie (Trump supports way more government involvement in the economy than any republican candidate in recent history). I do think that all people (regardless of color) deserve to not be shot in the back by cowardly cops as they run away.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

There are plenty of videos showing cops shooting people that are not only unarmed but running away.

I wasn’t aware that there’s an abundance of such videos.

Would you mind posting links to five or six? I’d like to check them out.

Or were you just making that up?

Christian Histo
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I knew you would post this one. Here’s what really happened. http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-case-of-michael-slager-not-just-lynching-a-crucifixion So you’ve got a guy driving a stolen car. WIth a long record, and warrants for his arrest. The officer goes to arrest him. The thug attacks the officer. (He should’ve been shot right then.) He then grabs the officer’s taser and tases him with it. Then he takes off running. The officer appears to believe that he still had the taser. So you’ve got a career criminal, who’s out stealing cars, and just assaulted a cop, and you think he’s now got a taser. And you would… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Haha. I love it. You watch a video of a man who was unarmed being shot and you use some insane conspiracy theory webpage to defend him. Nice. Why do you lie indeed.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Right. It’s an insane conspiracy.

Because we all know that Trayvon Martin was minding his own business when GZ pumped him full of lead.

And the saintly Michael Brown was standing yards away from Darren Wilson, with his hands in the air, when Wilson just began firing for no reason.

Just like the Castile case is falling to pieces now, as we learn what actually happened.

Besides, like I said, white or black, armed or not – once you physically attack a police officer, you SHOULD be shot.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

There are plenty of videos showing cops shooting people that are not only unarmed but running away. You’re supposed to be posting proof that cops shooting unarmed people running away from them is rampant. Uh, this guy was armed. You know, like with a gun? One that he pointed at the officer? The article clearly stated that the guy was armed. And if you’re too busy to read the article, you should’ve at least checked the headline: Bodycam reveals the shocking split-second decision a cop made to shoot dead an armed man running away from him at wedding An armed… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Another winner. A thug with a long criminal record who had just pulled a carjacking runs from cops. He then turns and points what appears to be a weapon at them. So they shot. The weapon turned out to be a phone. I’m sure if if you had been in the cop’s shoes, the thought that a violent carjacker might’ve had a gun would’ve never crossed your mind, and you would be able to instantly distinguish from yards away, all makes and models of phones from all makes and models of guns. I guess cops should wait until the the… Read more »

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Another cell phone?? Haha. You are hilarious. Apparently pointing cell phones is a major threat out there. I am going to have to be careful about texting with cops around. Apparently, if you ran things, they would be well within their rights to shoot me full of holes.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Here is four: The teen is laying on the ground for this one but not sure that is better than him running away…

http://kfor.com/2015/11/25/graphic-dashcam-video-shows-chicago-officer-shoot-teen-16-times/

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Another flat out lie.

The thug, who had a long criminal record, was armed.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/14/us/chicago-police-shooting-cedrick-chatman-video/

Why do you just make stuff up?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Not sure the article says what you think it says. I love that videos are not enough for you though. No bad cops in your crazy mind.

Christian Histo
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

This is the same one as #3.

The violent thug who had just jacked a car and turned and pointed a phone at the cops.

Why do you just make stuff up?

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

He “pointed” the cell phone at the cops? Haha what? Justification for shooting huh?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Oh, I know – you’re a fearless, omniscient hero, and if you’d been that cop, you would’ve obviously never imagined that a punk who had just pulled a carjacking and is now turning and pointing something at you might have a gun. You would’ve known instantly that it was a camera. You’re good like that.

Too bad those cops are just stupid. I mean, can you imagine – they actually thought a violent carjacker who stopped fleeing from them to turn around and point something at them might’ve had a gun.

Imbeciles.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

I just posted five videos per your request. And videos are a fairly new thing (and it is hard to catch something like this on video). Can you not admit that for every incident caught on video there are probably plenty more than have not been caught on video?

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Reason is not normal around here…good luck.

Christopher
Member

Ask ME and jillybean about that.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

This coming from a guy who claims to seriously believe that white “prejudice” and “bigotry” against black and brown people is a big problem in the US.

insanitybytes22
Member

Reason is not normal anywhere. If reason ruled, our congresscritters wouldn’t be telling young men that to comply with authority is an insult to their manhood as Rep Clyburn just did.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Two of them are flat out lies – the guy was armed. In the other two, the cops had very good reason to think the guy was armed, and a serious threat to the public. The fifth was a duplicate of the third one. When did Christians turn into commies who think the rights of black criminals to run amok in their war on society trumps law and order and the safety of the public? Nowadays, Christians seem to think criminals have every right to not only flee from police, but to physically assault them, and the cops should just… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

FAAAK, there are plenty videos available on youtube showing illegal or abusive activity by police. If you are really interested you should watch Photography Is Not A Crime dot com and Police Misconduct dot net.

That is if you are really interested in the subject instead of just stirring the mud.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

FAAAK, there are plenty videos available on youtube showing illegal or abusive activity by police. Did I say there weren’t? The other guy said there were plenty of videos of cops shooting unarmed people running away from them. That’s an entirely different subject than “illegal or abusive activity.” I challenged him to post 5-6 since they’re allegedly so plentiful. He posted five. One was a dupe of another, so he really posted four. Two were of armed thugs being shot by cops, which he tried to pass off as being unarmed. The other two were cops shooting thugs they had… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

FAAAK, you keep stirring the mud and don’t produce good references from the Bible. At least Ryan Sather attempts to link scripture to his thoughts.

Where did I or anyone else indicate that robbing and killing should be allowed?

Oh Great FAAAK, what should be done in your opinion?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

FAAAK, you keep stirring the mud and don’t produce good references from the Bible. What “references from the Bible” should I use to prove that black crime rates are astronomically higher than white crime rates? What “references from the Bible” should I use to prove that two of the videos of cops shooting “unarmed” people in the back were actually videos of armed people being shot after attacking cops? What “references from the Bible” should I use to prove that nearly all of the killings of blacks by cops in recent years were entirely justified? What “references from the Bible”… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

FAAAK, pick one and we’ll go from there. I understand your examples, but what do you think should be done?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

FAAAK, pick one and we’ll go from there.

Not sure what you mean.

But it’s moot.

I’m playing a poker tournament online, and I just tripled up and jumped to #3 out of 113 players left.

It’s looking good for a deep run, and I need to concentrate.

So I’m outta here.

Christopher
Member

May the odds be ever in your favor.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Thanks

ashv
Guest
ashv

We could look at history and try something that worked before.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Do you have something in mind? You can’t do a massive expulsion of U.S. citizens. If that was any white person’s intention, why shouldn’t that person be the one to leave? You can’t disenfranchise an entire race of people, which is what it would take minimally to get enough votes for a return to segregation. On top of that, however frustrated white people may feel about race relations in this country, I think it would be only a fringe group which would support such a plan. And I can’t imagine any Supreme Court going along with designating a geographic area… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Anything that relies on majority opinion diverging from the opinions of the ruling class will never happen. You are correct that such things won’t be achieved via voting.

America will either give up popular government, or give up everything else.

Katecho
Member

40 ACRES wrote: As I told Doug, the basic problem is the fact that so many black males are basically at war with civilization. They’re violent and dangerous, and they are legion. 40 ACRES seems to think that he has a firm grasp of the “basic problem”, but he has apparently ignored that whites are more legion than blacks in the U.S. Of the 4 million annual white victims of violent crime, only 13.7% of these were committed by blacks while over 56% were committed by whites against whites. White people have four times as much to fear from other… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Stick to logic, since statistics seems to be beyond you. Black Americans are at least 4x more likely to attempt violence than White Americans, according to NCVS numbers, and have 10x the murder rate of Whites. You ignore the fact that the Black population is significantly smaller than the White population. The DoJ reports that 52% of homicides in the US between 1980 and 2008 were committed by blacks, who comprise only 13% of the population.

So no, Whites have much more to fear from Blacks than other Whites.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

But aren’t the victims of black crime much more likely to be black?

Katecho
Member

jillybean wrote:

But aren’t the victims of black crime much more likely to be black?

Indeed. And white victims are more likely to be victims of white criminals, because whites are legion. I think ashv just read too hastily, and was too eager to promote his statistics, so as to keep us focused on race as the “basic problem”.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Try again once you understand the basics of ratios and probability. Even restricting it to the question of “who should White people be afraid of”, the NCVS shows that 54% of the victims of Black crime are White.

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote:

Try again once you understand the basics of ratios and probability. Even
restricting it to the question of “who should White people be afraid
of”, the NCVS shows that 54% of the victims of Black crime are White.

I’m afraid ashv is the one demonstrating a lack of proficiency with statistics. What if 100% of the victims of Cherokee crimes are white? Would this mean that whites should fear an attack from a Cherokee more than from other whites?

ashv
Guest
ashv

Yes? This seems like an unrelated point.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think it is relevant in terms of whom we need to be afraid of.

ashv
Guest
ashv

To be precise: Black crime victims are more likely to have Black perpetrators than White. But that’s not the question originally in view, which was “Who should White people be afraid of?”.

Katecho
Member

ashv wrote: Stick to logic, since statistics seems to be beyond you. Ashv clearly didn’t parse what I actually wrote. He provided statistics about rates of offense without regard for the race of the victim. He said: So no, Whites have much more to fear from Blacks than other Whites. This is simply false, and demonstrates that ashv is in no position to be admonishing me about proper handling of statistics. According to the DoJ, white offenders account for 56% of white victims of violent crime, whereas black offenders account for only 13.7%. This means that whites in this country… Read more »

antexw
Member

Since the population categories aren’t nearly equal, then it’d be best to normalize over the population types in considering the matter of how much more/less Whites have to fear from Blacks vs. Whites. Based on Wikipedia’s U.S. demography data (where the total US population is given as 308,745,538 folks) Whites are about 79%, Blacks are 15%, and Others are 6% (these numbers account for Mixed folks of at least two of the previous three categories being proportionately divided up according to the raw tabulated Wikipedia data). So, using the above data and its categories, 56% of violent crime against Whites… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Antecho wrote: Thus, a Black human being has about 32% [ = (14/15) / (56/79) – 1] more violence-power against Whites than that of a White human being against Whites. Antecho seems to be trying to compute the ratio of a given black individual committing a violent act against whites as compared to a given white individual committing a violent act against whites. Unfortunately, that approach ignores that there are simply far more violent whites available to interact with. The topic was whether whites had more to fear from other whites as a whole, or blacks as a whole. On… Read more »

antexw
Member

A high speed car collision is more likely to violently affect me than a meteor impact. However, since we’re not likely to experience interaction with a meteor impact but we are likely to experience interaction with a black, you’ve used a false analogy (which is also a fallacy) in attempt to point out a fallacy. Rather, consider that efficiency or normalized (destructive) bang for the buck args for various classes are relevant and useful for the existence of disproportionate factors or causes when it is a strong generalization that whites will annually experience violence from blacks (vs. meteor impacts). And,… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Antecho wrote: However, since we’re not likely to experience interaction with a meteor impact, but we are likely to experience interaction with a black you’ve used a false analogy (which is also a fallacy) in attempt to point out a fallacy. No. It is not a logical fallacy to use an exaggerated situation to illustrate a principle. I made no claim that the rate of experiencing black violence is similar to the rate of being hit by a meteorite. Antecho doesn’t seem to realize that his 32% “violence-power” ratio could be 100, or 1,000, or 1,000,000 and it would be… Read more »

antexw
Member

I will supplement your statement to show the relevance of blacks being more efficient than whites based on the actual (vs. invented/exaggerated) situation/stats of violence against whites: If a white person is going to be a victim of violence, they are, in this country today, [ON THE AVERAGE] four times more likely to be a victim of a white offender than a black offender. And, if whites are thus going to be a victim of violence by either a proximate white or a proximate black person who will both be in proximity to cause such violence, then ON THE AVERAGE… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Antecho wrote: Since the former conditional probability, conditioned on the common situation of a black in proximity, is significantly greater than that for a white in proximity, there truly is a reasonable sense to claim whites have more to fear from blacks more than whites, especially since the proximity of blacks is a common occurrence (apart from your meteorite analogy). Antecho is suggesting that we simply grant the proximity of blacks as a given, and as a satisfied condition. By doing so he intends to change the prior probability of being victimized by a black person. This is otherwise known… Read more »

antexw
Member

Indeed, I don’t assume that the supplemental ‘if’ condition is at best anomalously ever satisfied; that would be absurd. As a realistically regularly satisfied condition, then I would also believe that you, yourself, are stacking the deck if you would assert that it’s at best an anomalous situation or fulfilled condition for there to exist a white and a black in proximity when violence is going to be committed against a white (I’m not meaning an apriori known particular white/black like Doug/Thabiti). Rather than stacking or rigging a deck of false/unreal (or even anomalous) explanations/scenarios, I’m using a realistic/regular particular… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Antecho’s responses are getting more and more wordy, but they are simply restatements of the same claim that I’ve already dealt with. It simply doesn’t matter how much more violent black people are if there are not enough of them to counter the fact that whites commit violent crimes against whites four times more often than blacks do. That’s the fact that Antecho keeps trying to get around, unsuccessfully. Antecho wrote: … blacks PER CAPITA are statistically at least 32% more (likely to be) violent against whites than whites PER CAPITA are violent against whites. Nothing is changed by adding… Read more »

antexw
Member

With a continued implementation of fallacious Either-Or statistical selection/analysis you’ve concluded, “there aren’t enough blacks to make them more of a problem than other white people.” Yet, since we ourselves and our problems, challenges, crimes, violence and resources are finite and experienced finitely, we often don’t experience, assess / relate about, and deal with such matters globally in total mass or “on the whole.” Hence, locality and thus PER CAPITA/intensity/density/richness/efficiency quality-oriented statistics & analysis (derived from on the whole stats) like the one I supplemented (vs. “side-stepped”) can be more relevant than “enough” / total mass quantity — especially for… Read more »

ChartAZ
Guest
ChartAZ

It is certainly too bad Douglas Wilson that post your article it has become a platform to ratify and discuss what black folks think, feel and do. A platform to ratify that racial bigotry is primarily historical and for white folks to give their “expert” opinion about black people. Kind of sad and disheartening but not surprising.