All Lies Matter

Show Outline with Links

Introduction

Someone once observed, sagely, that it is not necessary to choose up sides in an ethnic war. The other side does that for you. Put another way, there are some things you can’t opt out of. But considered from another angle, in the meantime there are certain things that Christians should strive to understand better than we currently do.

The recent shootings, in Minneapolis, Baton Rogue, and then Dallas have set off a nation-wide reaction that is the result of our identity politics come home to roost. There is a massive tendency to simply identify such incidents with race, when there is actually far more going on. All Lies

The problem is not only that we identify with our tribes before Christ, but also that in our confusion we have gotten our tribes all wrong. We are idolaters, which is bad enough, but then we have gone and gotten the name of the idol all wrong.

Andrew Breitbart once observed that politics is downstream from culture. I would add that in addition culture is downstream from worship and faith. A right understanding of this explains why Christian conservatives have been so disappointed over the last few decades. We have been fighting in the right war, but have been fighting from the wrong end. We have been fighting politically, which is most necessary, but we have been fighting as through culture were irrelevant to this political battle, which is why we have been losing it.

No Cultural Change Without Cultures Changing

The presenting characteristics of an ethnic group or tribe are largely a function of culture. The racist wants it to be that the presenting characteristics of an ethnic group, particularly the negative characteristics of a despised group, are genetic. These problems, or so the thinking goes, are just the way things are.

But this is not what the Bible teaches.

“One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith” (Titus 1:12–13).

There was a distinct Cretan culture, one which Epimenides observed, and which caused the apostle Paul to cite him favorably as he was equipping Titus for pastoral ministry in Crete. Note that a generalization is given, to the disadvantage of Cretans generally, and which was (for Christians) true. God thought what Paul said. Cretans, in marked distinction from other ethnic groups, were liars, animals, and slowbellies. But notice what Paul tells Titus to do about it. He says that he was to rebuke them sharply, so that they might be sound in the faith.

In other words, the call of Christian discipleship does not write off any ethnic group, any more than it writes off sinful individuals. People can change, and as a result families, households, and tribes can change, which means that over time cultures can change. The power of the gospel transforms more than individuals.

In His last charge, Jesus said that we were to disciple the ethnoi, baptizing them and teaching them to obey Him in everything. Those are our marching orders. We are not given the option of saying that this particular tribe among the ethnoi is incorrigible. To the extent that we cling to our racism, we are trying to be incorrigible.

The mission assigned by Christ does not really have the modern nation/state in view. Depending on which one it is, the modern nation/state can have a heavy ethnic element, or over time it can become its own ethnos. But ethnoi, tribes, are primarily in view. And He did not say that we were to teach obedience to all the tribes except for the obvious loser tribes. We are to preach the good news of salvation to every creature, and to the tribes they were born into.

“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:9–10).

Note bene: Now I know have some commenters in some of my threads on race who believe they are being insulting to blacks, when they are actually insulting and taunting the power of the death of Jesus. Where some would see bigotry, I see something closer to blasphemy.

But Word-centered Christians need to labor to keep the truth of the gospel, and the power of the gospel, front and center in all of this. And why? Because all lies matter.

Tribes, Not Races

One of the besetting sins of white liberals is their insistence on reducing their beloved identity politics to the most superficial level possible — to that of the epidermis, regardless of cultural affiliations and loyalties which run far closer to the bone. But the real driver of behavior is culture, and behind that is the relationship of that cultural tribe to God and His Word. What behaviors are common in that group and, more to the point, what behaviors receive the social approval of that group generally?

But liberals just want to look at the skin. For example, liberals saw South Africa in black and white, instead of seeing three major black tribes (Zulu, Xhosa, and Sotho) and two major white ones (English and Dutch).

They see the white man conquering North America, taking it away from a group called “Native Americans.” But the Native Americans were made up of numerous tribes, very different from one another, with different languages, cultures, and so on. They were often deadly enemies to one another. And anyone who cannot tell the difference between the Nez Perce and the Comanche really ought not to be contributing to the discussion. I, for one, would be fully in favor of the state of Idaho seizing federal lands in Idaho, and returning a bunch of it to the Nez Perce, whom we did in fact rip off in a terrible way. But other tribes do not have my sympathy at all. Why? Because while tribes have an obvious genetic component, they are not defined by race, and they are not determined by it.

Tamerlane was racially distinct from the lands in the West that he invaded, but it would be a mistake to think he was conducting a war on “white people.” That categorization does not really apply.

So once you have divided Americans neatly up into “white” and “black,” you immediately have trouble explaining why someone who descended from people who arrived here in the 1920’s from Lithuania owes anything to blacks whose ancestors were abused by Englishmen in the 1720’s. If your grandparents fled Auschwitz and settled in Brooklyn, what do you owe blacks who had to deal with bigotry in Selma? Really? Skin color is all it takes?

In the centuries when millions of blacks were being enslaved and shipped from West Africa in the Middle Passage, the same thing was happening in reverse as Muslim raiders were taking slaves from Europe, as far north as Ireland. The very name slave comes from Slav, and as many as a million Europeans were captured and taken off into slavery — should we demand reparations from Libya now? And who are “we” exactly?

If you reduce everything to skin color, you are like someone whose library catalog system puts all the red books over here, and all the gray ones over there. But what do the books say? What are they about? Shouldn’t we file them in accordance with what they are saying? Red book! Red book! Hater!

Superficial analysis also has a great deal of trouble explaining the difference in accomplishment between West Indian blacks in America and American blacks in America. In culture quite different, they both had slavery as part of their legacy. In culture they are quite different, but with differences that would make no difference at all to the bigot who is refusing to hire blacks. And yet, West Indian blacks excelled here. Why? Because culture is far more of a powerful driver than liberals want to believe.

In short, white liberalism is profoundly racist. The fact that their racism is patronizing and and declared to be well-meaning changes nothing. Everything for them reduces to skin color, and the omnicompetent oppressions of whitey. Thus in a manner of speaking they want Koreans and Chinese to “stick together.” But somebody really ought to read a book sometime.

So culture trumps politics, but it also trumps pigmentation. Tribes are a cultural phenomenon, and not primarily a genetic, racial one. Culture has to do with shared language, expectations, sexual mores, values, and so on, and behind all of it, the God who is worshiped or not. If you are among those who assume that pigmentation settles culture, then you are a big part of our problem.

Black Cracker Culture

If you insist on “zooming out” and evaluating black culture with “blackness” as the sole determining variable of the group you are studying, what you will find is manifest inferiority. You will find a dysfunctional mess — high levels of criminality, illegitimacy, substandard education, and other forms of destructive behavior. This was not created by the welfare state, but the welfare state has most certainly grievously exacerbated it — a welfare state that was the brain child of officious white people. As Paul would say, therefore rebuke them sharply . . .

When you find, as you will, that black Americans have many more run-ins with the cops than do white citizens, you shouldn’t put on a shocked face. Blacks are around 12% of the total American population, and make up around 35% of the prison population. You will have to give some account of this. If you are a liberal, you will blame white privilege, the legacy of slavery, etc. If you are a racist, you will blame the incorrigible nature of blacks. But if you are a Christian, you will blame the world, the flesh, and the devil, and you will undertake the task of “rebuking them sharply” so that they might be sound in the faith.

Those who minister among blacks ought not labor to have their rebukes line up with some sort of egalitarian cultural mythology. The sins rebuked should be the sins actually on display, the sins that are destroying the people. The different sins destroying other people in other places and in other ways are not relevant.

Now as Thomas Sowell has shown, this particular culture originally arose in the border lands between England and Scotland, in Ulster, and in the highlands of Scotland. We are talking about cracker culture, the culture of poor whites in the American South. In many ways this culture parallels the culture of poor blacks in the South, and there has historically been a great deal of traffic between the two. Regardless, it is destructive. Sexual promiscuity and violence are not the key elements in building a civilization, whether you are white or black.

But if you zoom in and examine particular black subcultures, you will find more than one. You will quickly discover than black genetics have nothing whatever to do with lack of accomplishment. The culprit is disobedient culture, which is the result of the collective choices of individuals over generations.

Now to Some Policing Particulars

As more details emerge from the recent shooting incidents, the more it becomes obvious that trial by Facebook is not something we really ought to be striving for. This includes judgments passed on cops and civilians both.

The reason we should want to have an honest judicial system is so that disinterested investigators can methodically get all the facts, find out the back story, interview all the witnesses, and make a determination. This would result in an indictment or not, and afterward a trial if needed. Sometimes the determination must be made in field, as in the case with the Dallas sniper. It is easier to find out what is going on when someone tells the world what he is doing and why. But other times the investigation is going to take the weeks and months following, where the suspect denies doing what we think he might have done. This is not the same thing as passing judgment in the hours following the incident on Twitter.

But here is our dilemma. When our official establishment has disgraced itself time and again through various shenanigans and cover-ups, it is harder for those who want a judicious and impartial inquiry to be able to call for one, as I want to be able to do.

Here’s an example within recent memory. I mean that James Comey of the FBI achieved something of a milestone, when he was as lead investigator placed under oath in order to reveal that the target of the investigation was not placed under oath. His testimony was recorded, and Hillary’s testimony was not recorded.

One of the reasons why a justice system has to be manifestly uncorrupted is that people will not stop rioting in the streets in order to let a corrupt system handle their grievances. When the establishment has lost the respect of respectable people, they have lost pretty much everything. And so has everyone else lost something crucial.

In the meantime, I object to the militarization of our police. I object to the inane nanny-state laws that they are called upon to enforce. I object to the politicization of the judicial system, using it as a weapon on merely political foes. I object to the war on drugs. I object to corrupt cops who disable their body cams prior to mischief. But most of all, I object to partisans who care more for the interests of their tribe (whether a long-standing tribe or in a developing ad hoc tribe) than in the requirements of biblical justice.

I can’t be on the side of the Oregon ranch protesters over against the authorities because of the color of the protesters, and then be on the side of the authorities when they pull over someone for “driving while black.” I am a Christian first, and that means the principles of biblical justice first, and that means that in any given situation, a different tribe might need to be rebuked sharply.

In short, Eric Garner and Michael Brown were not in the same category at all, and we need a judicial system capable of telling the difference. If someone’s analysis of the situation consists of looking at the color of the fabric on the ones who did the killing, and the Ancestry.com sheet of the one who was killed, then that person really ought to be banned from jury duty for life.

A Short Reading List

If you want to read up on some of these things, here are just a few recommendations. For evidence that all the inner city pathologies that we see among black people here in America can be readily manifested by white people just as well, I would recommend Life at the Bottom by Theodore Dalrymple. And Thomas Sowell has addressed this problem in very trenchant detail in his essay Black Rednecks and White Liberals, found in a book with the same name. If you want to know my take on race relations in America, I am pretty much where Sowell is.

There is more to say, obviously, and perhaps one day I will get to it.

314
Leave a Reply

avatar
 
19 Comment threads
295 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
33 Comment authors
jillybeanChristopher CaseyEvanDunsworthWesley Sims Recent comment authors

  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
Luke Pride
Guest

“but we have been fighting as through culture were irrelevant” Do you mean “though” not “through? “Now I know have some commenters” Do you mean “now have” or “I know I have” “patronizing and and declared to be well-meaning ” I do think it’s weird that the guilt felt for one’s heritage is what they are told, even if it isn’t their heritage, while their real heritage is irrelevant. I’m Swedish background, my family came here in Late 1800/early 1900s. Scandinavia had no part of the passage. And yet, I’ve never had other Western Europeans call me to account for… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Okay, Luke, you asked for it. I thought it was Danes who kept raiding Britain, but if you are willing to accept some Swedish complicity, that’s okay with me. As a descendant of the British people who kept to their own island and never bothered anyone else in the world, I think that the Scandinavian incursions were just terrible. And charging people the Danelagh, or perhaps Swedelagh, was unkind, and I would like our money back. And Gustav Adolphus was clearly on the wrong side in the Thirty Years’ War, even if he did have the backing of Cardinal Richelieu.… Read more »

Luke Pride
Guest

I think Vikings came from various parts of Scandanavia, I don’t know which pillaged who.
To be fair those I have some Irish and Welsh background so I could demand payment from the English for that. Or at least a full ride to Oxford for Grad school.

Jane
Member

Of course, a lot of the Irish are Scandinavian too — the Danes ruled Ireland for a while as well.

adad0
Member

Jilly, when you talk about North Americans of Scandanavian descent, you have to say something about Lutefisk! ; – )

Also glad to hear that those English speaking Brits kept to their own island!

Otherwise, we would all be speaking English!

Whoops! Wait? What?

Well, at least you speak English Jilly! ; – )

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I forgot to complain to Luke that there is nothing worse than kneeling on a Lego piece when you are trying to get stuff off the rug.

Jane
Member

Yes, yes there is. Stepping on one in the middle of the night.

John
Member

Lutefisk!! Now that’s goooood eatin’.

Andrew Lohr
Member

Boycott “Hagar the Horrible”–it’s Scandophobian.

Nord357
Guest
Nord357

No one ever has to say anything about Lutefisk!

john k
Guest
john k

The Brits are not one people, but an amalgamated tribe. They didn’t invade elsewhere, but they invaded the “British Isles”–in successive migrations of Celts, Angles, Saxons, and Normans! The Briton Celts, when forced out by the Anglo-Saxon influx, took over parts of modern-day France and Spain. And the Irish and Scots might not be mollified to be told that the English “kept to their own island.”

adad0
Member

J’, Jilly was being silly, on purpose. ; – )

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I know. I was being silly, a failing that overcomes me way too often. But I did actually think that Celts were the original indiginous people. Who were, if not the Celts?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Jilly, I think you’re finally ready.

It’s time you were initiated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCiv1VGBO-c

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Jilly, let me know when you’ve finished watching the Michael Tsarion video.

(I don’t recommend watching all 9 hours in one sitting, BTW.)

Once you’ve finished it, we’ll talk about David Icke.

Jane
Member

Well, unless it was uninhabited when the Celts showed up, they displaced somebody. Because they came from Asia, too — probably Ionia.

Weren’t there native Britons there before?

john k
Guest
john k

Stonehenge is believed to pre-date the Celts.

John
Guest
John

I found myself agreeing constantly with your points. I’m also glad that you brought Thomas Sowell into the spotlight. He’s one of the biggest hidden gems of the last 100 years, in my opinion.

Andrew Lohr
Member

And those racist Swedes haven’t yet given him the Nobel Prize. Black brains matter!

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

“So once you have divided Americans neatly up into “white” and “black,” you immediately have trouble explaining why someone who descended from people who arrived here in the 1920’s from Lithuania owes anything to blacks whose ancestors were abused by Englishmen in the 1720’s.”

You have trouble explaining to me why someone descended from those abusive Englishmen of the 1720’s owes anything to the descendants of the individuals they abused.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Isn’t it amazing the way Doug continuously reveals new details about just how much he has bought into the SJW gospel?

And how none of his fans ever seem to notice?

And how when someone points it out, they’ll swear up and down that Doug didn’t mean what he clearly wrote?

insanitybytes22
Member

I think what Wilson is offering is actually the antidote to the SJW. Believe it or not, screaming racist and sexist memes at people all day is not how you go about winning hearts and minds.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

You think a great many things, don’t you?

insanitybytes22
Member

Yes. You should give it a try once in a while.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

By Jove, I shall!

Thanks for the pro-tip!

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Believe it or not, screaming racist and sexist memes at people all day is not how you go about winning hearts and minds.

Really?

Seemed to work pretty well for Donald Trump.

insanitybytes22
Member

Really? Last time I checked he was 10 points behind a potential felon in an orange pantsuit.

adad0
Member

40 oz. Wilson clearly wrote “Biblical Justice”.

The denominator of all Justice.

Did you notice that? ;-)

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Isn’t Jesus just dreamy?

adad0
Member

Find out 40 oz.!

Frank_in_Spokane
Guest
Frank_in_Spokane

“In short, Eric Garner and Michael Brown were not in the same category at all, and we need a judicial system capable of telling the difference.” I saw a video of Philando Castile’s girlfriend, Ms. Reynolds, at a protest. (Outside the MN governor’s mansion, perhaps?) A minute into the clip, she was complaining (paraphrasing here), “The officer ordered us to show him our ID. But he also ordered us to put our hands up and freeze. Which order do we obey? We can’t do both at the same time.” Assuming that’s an accurate recounting of what happened, right on. Totally… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Blasphemer!

Ben
Guest
Ben

“The presenting characteristics of an ethnic group or tribe are largely a function of culture.” This is not accurate. It has been found that black IQ’s on average are lower than that of whites, Asians, and Hispanics, and not just western blacks. In fact, western blacks have higher IQ’s than, say, sub-Saharans or aboriginals due to having some European DNA, particularly that of whites, mixed in. Of course this does not fundamentally contradict Titus 1:12-13, as acknowledging IQ differences among races doesn’t at all amount to saying all people of X race are evil, liars, etc. It does not take… Read more »

John
Guest
John

Group IQs change consistently over time. They are not so much a function of genetics, but of culture through generations.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Genetics are, over a long enough timespan, determined by culture (since genetics depends on who gets to have children, and with whom). But IQ is as heritable as height; to say that IQ is a function of culture is just as sensible as saying that height is a function of culture.

bethyada
Member

Natural selection is predominantly culling. And stupid people can reproduce effectively, as well as men with short time preferences.

insanitybytes22
Member

LOL! Well actually, the so called stupid people seem far more effective at reproduction then the alleged intelligent. I believe the highly educated have availed themselves of birth control, abortion, family planning, and delayed child birth. The rest of us had children.

ashv
Guest
ashv

When allowed to, of course, which is where culture comes in. To take the example of England, a few centuries of downward social mobility among the upper classes, near-exclusive male control of female sexuality, and vigorous punishment of crime (theft as a capital crime, for example) are all cultural factors that reduced the relative birth rate of low-IQ/short-time-preference populations.

bethyada
Member

Why would you think the upper class of England had the highest IQ?

adad0
Member

Boy George? ; – )

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Absolutely. As my beloved Thomas Gray wrote about the yokels buried in his country churchyard: Perhaps in this neglected spot is laid Some heart once pregnant with celestial fire; Hands, that the rod of empire might have sway’d, Or wak’d to ecstasy the living lyre. But Knowledge to their eyes her ample page Rich with the spoils of time did ne’er unroll; Chill Penury repress’d their noble rage, And froze the genial current of the soul. I do family history. For centuries most of my ancestors were agricultural laborers, dairy men, shepherds, and such like, right up to the turn… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Especially with all that inbreeding.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Assortative mating for IQ may be a relatively recent phenomenon (recent surveys of class and IQ indicate they do correlate) but the primary trait I had in mind was longer time preference, which you pretty had to have to stay in the upper classes.

bethyada
Member

I am familiar with this concept. Day is an advocate. But the idea that time preference is genetic (rather than learned) is unfounded. Nor do I think that long time preferences increase progeny.

(Note also that time preference is frequently a choice about whether to sin or not.)

ashv
Guest
ashv

Every other behavioural trait is heritable, so I see no reason to believe time preference isn’t.

My point isn’t that long time preference results in more kids; it’s that primogeniture inheritance meant that there was a stable population of upper-class English that hadn’t wasted all their money.

bethyada
Member

Just like the gay gene? The debate is IQ, so there needs to be preferential survival and to breeding age with increased progeny. But I don’t dispute that IQ is heritable, nor that the English (mongrels that they are) or the Han Chinese have higher IQs than, say, Sri Lankans. I just think that IQ is likely to be a very complex and multigene phenomenon that we are less likely (unlikely) to see IQ segregate along racial lines in the same way we see height doing so. There was some research recently showing that cross racial children have slightly higher… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

The “gay gene” idea is laughable on its face, since there’s no conceivable means by which it could be transmitted in a population.

Height is highly polygenic as well, so far as I understood. Have you heard otherwise?

bethyada
Member

I agree, but it wasn’t me that said every other behaivoural trait is heritable. Height is likely polygenic. And some mutations lead to increased height (such as related to growth hormone). But skin colour, height, and other features are often few genes. Some cancer susceptibilities in populations relate to a single mutated gene. The human brain is a very complicated thing. Possibly the most complicated created thing in existence. Who knows what mediates intelligence? But I think there will be a plethora of genes as well as various switches in the non-coding regions. The more genes there are the less… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

in Human Accomplishment, Charles Murray remarked that Egyptian and Chinese (and one other) Cultures in 800 B.C. were less advanced than Egyptian culture had been 1500 years prior.

There has been a whole lot of ebbin-n-flowin goin on for quite a while now.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

But IQ is as heritable as height; to say that IQ is a function of culture is just as sensible as saying that height is a function of culture.

I wouldn’t disagree if you said “innate intelligence”, but “IQ” is a score you get on a test developed by the “experts”. I am very much surprised that you give those Ivy League progrsssives all the benefit of the doubt that their test perfectly measures innate intelligence.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I don’t know about “innate intelligence”, but it’s strongly correlated with achievement in both school and employment, so it’s measuring something real and worth caring about.
I won’t claim it’s a perfect measure of anything, but I don’t know of any alternative hypotheses.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

I don’t know about “innate intelligence”, but it’s strongly correlated with achievement in both school and employment, so it’s measuring something real and worth caring about.

I’m using “innate intelligence” to refer to what the IQ test is ostensibly measuring (or ranking). “IQ” typically refers to a number, one’s score on a test.
And I would not disagree with your statement that there are correlations between IQ number and performance at school or job. But I will also say that there are factors like language skills, work ethic, attitudes, fears, etc that can affect both – factors besides raw intelligence.

John
Guest
John

I mean, you’re just wrong. There’s no directly known causation between genetics and IQ.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Did I say there was? There’s also no “directly known causation” between genetics and height. But it’s significantly heritable.

John
Guest
John

Again, you’re just wrong. We have found specific genes connected to height. Here’s an article talking specific genetic regions that are directly connected with height: http://time.com/3462490/new-genes-found-that-determine-your-height/

Do you have similar evidence for IQ? Or are you basing it on nothing more than a correlation?

ashv
Guest
ashv
ashv
Guest
ashv

Precisely. “Numerous researchers have found that the structure of cognitive abilities is strongly influenced by genes”.

insanitybytes22
Member

Close but no cigar.

“But at the very least, these findings should make you think twice about the meaning of the phrase “heritability of intelligence.” Instead of an index of how “genetic” an IQ test is, it’s more likely that in Western society– where learning opportunities differ so drastically from each
other– heritability is telling you just how much the test is influenced by culture.”

ashv
Guest
ashv

Obviously cultural/environmental factors play a big role in intelligence as well. But we’re a long way from saying “intelligence is not heritable”.

insanitybytes22
Member

Intelligence is not heritable.

bethyada
Member

Why would you think that?

insanitybytes22
Member

Because intelligence is not a simple matter involving cognitive ability nor is it related to wisdom and morality. So even if you could isolate “intelligence” genes all we would be able to do is measure potential cognitive function which may never be realized without the proper environment.

Or we could say “fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom” indicating that intelligence is actually learned behavior.

bethyada
Member

There are plenty of intelligent people who lack wisdom. But to your point, that an environment is needed to realise something is not disputed. But one needs something to realise and different people in optimal environments realise different cognitive abilities due to innate (genetic/ heritable) qualities.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Perhaps in your family.

John
Guest
John

Did you actually look at the links that came up? The second article is about how genetics play a much smaller role than previously thought and that culture plays a much larger role that previously thought.

ashv
Guest
ashv

“Smaller role” is not “no role”. My guess is that it’s 50/50 genes and environment — but however you slice it, it’s clear that both are significant.

bethyada
Member

John, do you really think there will be no genes associated with intelligence?

John
Guest
John

I honestly don’t know how it works. It’s clear that IQs move over time within cultures, and that over time the changes add up to large amounts. I doubt our genetics are causing that change.

Is there a genetic component? Probably. Is it relevant on the individual level, possibly not.

bethyada
Member

Yes IQs move. I don’t think that genetics are causing that change (unless there is a significant epigenetic component).

Genetics are probably very large on the individual level, it is on the population level they are likely insignificant. That is, differences between individuals likely correspond to parental intelligence. Differences between races are probably negligible.

John
Guest
John

When I said individual, I meant that it’s essentially impossible to know how naturally intelligent a child will be based purely on the genetics of the parent.

In the end, my point is simply that genetic differences between races is more a factor of culture than genetics.

bethyada
Member

Paragraph 2 I agree.

Paragraph 1, I think that one can have a pretty good guess based on parental intelligence, just as one can guess the children of tall parents will be tall.

John
Guest
John

Hmm, I guess we would have to agree to disagree. I find that adopted children often seem more like the parents who raised them than their biological parents.

I would agree that intelligent parents often raise intelligent children, but I’m doubtful about the genetic component.

insanitybytes22
Member

Don’t even try to reason with them. They all belong to the cult of Day.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

And, Ben, are you familiar with the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Project which found that black children adopted at birth into white families scored the same as white children on standard IQ tests?

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I don’t think that’s true, jilly. Was gonna look it up but it looks like Barnabas beat me to it.

And are you aware that the average white kid from the lowest income bracket in America ($200,000 household income annually)?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi 40 Acres and Barnabas, thank you for that information. I had read only the researchers’ summary of findings from the first tests when the adoptees were seven. I don’t understand how they managed to produce findings that don’t comport with the raw data. An academic ought not to have the luxury of trying to make his or her results “palatable.”

Ben
Guest
Ben

I have not. I can’t get around to reading everything that’s out there, but I do agree with Murray and Herrnstein (authors of The Bell Curve) that truly traumatic childhoods appear correlated to lower IQ’s. It’s not black and white either way (no pun intended). But that’s really the point that I’m making, as it seems to me that everyone wants to automatically explain the dysfunction of the black community as purely cultural. But again I say, if the black culture was derived from the white redneck culture, why is the white redneck culture now doing better than the black… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Do you think we sometimes think that sin and pathology are elements of culture? For example, there was a time when if you had mentioned Appalachian culture to me, I would have thought you meant fiddle playing, wood carving, prowess in hunting, fishing, and maybe distilling, tight communities, and fundamentalist religion. I would not have thought including oxycontin addiction as an element of culture. Some people allege that disrespect for education and the mannerly ways of middle class white folk is an integral part of black culture. I find this offensive. I agree with you that the dysfunction is not… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

“Some people allege that disrespect for education and the mannerly ways of middle class white folk is an integral part of black culture.” Actually, that allegation is true. Smart blacks like Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams get accused of being “oreos,” “house n—ers,” or “going white.” Many in the black culture really do look down on other blacks who try and become middle-class, affluent, and well-adjusted productive members of society. By the way, I wasn’t saying that culture had nothing to do with dysfunction, as the previous paragraph should indicate. Rather, I’m saying that it’s more complicated than just attributing… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Ben, I am open to the idea that races could vary in intelligence. It is obvious that some races are taller (on average), faster, browner (or paler), prone to certain cancers, etc.

It seems that intelligence is far more complex than these other attributes which can often be explained by a single (or a few) gene(s). So although I grant it in theory, unless a group is particularly small in numbers, it seems unlikely to me that there are vast differences in genetic intelligence between races. I would argue that most differences we see are cultural (ie education).

Ben
Guest
Ben

But what evidence can you provide for that assertion? I can provide a lot for mine, most taken from The Bell Curve by Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein.

bethyada
Member

I agree that there are actual differences in IQ between blacks and whites. I think that this is unlikely to be genetic for the reasons I have given.

I think that lower socio-economic groups have lower IQs (on average), I suspect that education and reading have more to do with differences than innate genetics of the African genome.

Ben
Guest
Ben

They why does the IQ disparity between blacks and whites increase as socio-economic status increases?

bethyada
Member

I am uncertain. Perhaps the recent shift of the parents to higher status? Perhaps the Flynn effect? But note also groups with the same genetics. Eg. Africans in Africa, in the Caribbean, and elsewhere. If it is genetic then they should have the same findings, and more so the higher the level of blackness (Africans should be lower in IQ than American blacks). A study looking a Jews at the turn of the 20th century (in the US) showed a below average IQ which had become above average despite similar gene stock. Like I said above, it is possible. It… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

“This is not true. IQ, which is mostly genetic, is one of the best (if
not the best) predictor of almost every metric of an individual’s social
and emotional well-being.”

Tell that to Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, Hitler or any of the other absolutely brilliant psychopathic mass murders of the world.

Also, for a bit of bent humor, trust me, being highly intelligent in a world gone mad is not a metric for “an individual’s social and emotional well-being.”

ashv
Guest
ashv

Then why were blacks doing so much better before the welfare state? How
did they go from a 17% illegitimacy rate in the 1940’s to 70% plus
today?

There’s a simple explanation, but American presuppositions won’t allow considering it. It explains the difference between functional and chaotic societies in many different places.

The explanation is: Too much freedom, like too much money, destroys people without the capacity to use it wisely.

Ben
Guest
Ben

Yes, too much freedom if it involves freedom from having to add value to society (i.e. living off welfare).

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

This is not accurate. It has been found that black IQ’s on average are lower than that of whites, Asians, and Hispanics, and not just western blacks. It astounds me that some of the folks on this comment thread, who are always VERY suspicious of the “experts” in soft science fields like education and psychology, are considering that intelligence is measureable, and IQ tests to be the gold standard. In this singular instance, those Ivy League educated progressive experts who develop those tests are Right On The Money. “Hey look, it’s PROVEN that blacks have lower intelligence than whites! Yay,… Read more »

John
Guest
John

40 Acres is an actual real life, full on racist (and ashv is right on the line). I’m not sure why you would be surprised.

It justifies their already held beliefs of the inferiority of black people.

timothy
Guest
timothy

whoa.

I bet you a dollar to a donut that their race-realism is a hard won intellectual effort.

It is very easy to retreat to the preferred cultural narrative; it takes bravery to ask difficult questions and to form one’s own conclusions in the face of opposition such as yours.

On the plus side, after they get through the initial trial, there is a lot of pleasure in tweaking the opposition.

John
Guest
John

Resting in assumptions that boost your own value above others is the easiest of all positions to take.

Ben
Guest
Ben

IQ differences among the races is a widely accepted, uncontroversial fact within academia. And why would the progressive leftist academics, the same ones who cry so loudly for racial justice and equality, be the ones at the tip of the spear reporting IQ differences among the races anyway? Wouldn’t they be the ones least likely to do that?

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

So basically “liberals are the real racists” and culture trumps genetics? Come on, no conservative with any awareness of race says that nonsense anymore.

adad0
Member

Well, Godly culture trumps genetics.

But then again, Godly culture even trumps death!

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Godly culture trumps death? Actually it doesn’t. Only Christ can do that.

adad0
Member

That was my implication.

insanitybytes22
Member

I wish they would say it. It’s the truth.

bethyada
Member

People can change, and as a result families, households, and tribes can change, which means that over time cultures can change. Despite the (secular) West heading away from Christ, Western culture to a large extent is Christian culture because this effect over 2000 years. Consider just the UK. Were the Celts, or the Picts, or the Angles, or the Saxons, or the Vikings, or the Normans, or even the Britons before all them, Christian in culture. Much of their culture was vastly anti-Christian but over time as they were Christianised their culture developed. Or course some cultural values are merely… Read more »

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

“Blacks are around 12% of the total American population, and make up around 35% of the prison population. You will have to give some account of this. If you are a liberal, you will blame white privilege, the legacy of slavery, etc. If you are a racist, you will blame the incorrigible nature of blacks. But if you are a Christian, you will blame the world, the flesh, and the devil, and you will undertake the task of “rebuking them sharply” so that they might be sound in the faith.” Unfortunately, this false trilemma does nothing to answer the concerns… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

I don’t blame Black Americans for the shambolic state of their culture, nor do I think that it’s completely genetically determined. Sub-Saharan Africans have lower IQs than Black Americans but have many examples of functioning societies.

The problem is that Black Americans were and are expected to act White. Expecting a people with radically different culture, ancestry, experience, and desires to conform to Western ideals and practices is foolishness of the first order. The abolitionists and civil-rights campaigners bear the blame for putting Black Americans in an impossible situation.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I saw the same thing when I taught indigenous children in northern Canada. Until the 1960s these children had not been exposed to TV, libraries, or decent medical care. They could build an ice shelter and survive at -30 degrees, they could hunt and trap, they could do a lot of things–but schooling and its demands made their lives very difficult. It was tough for people like me who believe passionately in education as a magic bullet for solving social inequalities. If you decide to respect their culture and not impose western education on their children, you are actually dooming… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

I do think black Americans were making progress in that direction, right up until the “Great Society”, but they’ve been provided ample dis-incentive to emulate white culture ever since then. In fact, it’s kind of worked the other way around. I do still blame black Americans though, even while I also blame white liberals. The results of irresponsible, self-destructive behavior are apparent enough, after they’ve been occurring for a while, if not before, that it shouldn’t take a high IQ, very much education, or social advantage to recognize them.

bethyada
Member

As a non-American I think the “black lives matter” meme is unhelpful at best. Of course all lives matter, but the rhetoric is either correct or incorrect. If it is correct (that black lives are treated with contempt leading to death and murder) then it may be rhetorically effective. But if the claim turns out to be incorrect (criminals are mainly targeted for bad behaviour) then the meme is inherently racist and perpetuates racial division. That is, if the rhetoric is incorrect then the people behind it are in fact creating the very problem they claim to be fighting. Related… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

Something that is quite different about Black Lives Matter and the Civil Rights Movement is the church. BLM is a very secular, politicized movement. So there is no commitment to non violence, no love your neighbor, none of the moral boundaries that provided the framework for civil disobedience. The Civil Right’s Movement was born in churches, it was based more on biblical justice.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

The Civil Right’s Movement was born in churches, it was based more on biblical justice.

Actually, it was based on Communism.

That’s why the Bible believing churches back then wanted nothing to do with it and denounced it as Communism.

But now evangelicalism and Communism are pretty much the same thing.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Evangelicalism looks like communism because Americanism does.

America is a communist country.

adad0
Member

“I mean that James Comey of the FBI achieved something of a milestone, when he was as lead investigator placed under oath in order to reveal that the target of the investigation was not placed under oath. His testimony was recorded, and Hillary’s testimony was not recorded.”

James Comey: College of William and Mary (Public Ivy)

Hillary Clinton: Yale Law School (Private Ivy)

So James and Hillary’s behavior would be an example of “Ivy League Cracker Culture”, right? ; – )

Seems like Ivy League lies are not allowed to matter! ; – )

They are apparently in a League of their own.

insanitybytes22
Member

Ha! A league of their own, indeed. When you fear the rule of law only applies to the little people and will be doled out quite harshly, and than you bear witness to that precise thing a few days later, it really rankles. That’s like pouring salt into a wound. To make matters worse, Rep Clyburn declared that submitting to cops was an affront to your manhood. This kind of crappy leadership really does influence behavior.

adad0
Member

Galatians 3

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 You are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, and there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Come on “Christ’s Culture” !

insanitybytes22
Member

Blood really can be thicker than water.

adad0
Member

Sacred Blood is! ; – )

Ian Miller
Member

As long as it’s not Holy Blood, Holy Grail ;)

ashv
Guest
ashv

Aw come on. That’s the best Bible fan-fiction since the Book of Mormon.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Why do you think Christians can or should have a single culture?

adad0
Member

A’, Per 1 Cor. 12, below, Christ’s “Culture” is His Body, the Church. It is one Body, with many diverse parts, but one in Christ, as the Word says. Why would any Christian think otherwise? For instance, the Navy, Army, Marines and Air Force are different service branches of the armed forces, with different missions, yet they are one, single, military. Their sub cultures are different, within the U.S. military culture. Cultures do not have to be homogenous to be “one”. 1 Corinthians 12 12 A person has only one body, but it has many parts. Yes, there are many… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

I’d say you picked a particularly bad example, given the mutual antagonism and competition between the military branches.

This sounds like another way to say “Christians are from many different nations and have different cultures, but are unified in Christ”. Which is rather different from saying that there is a single Christian culture.

adad0
Member

See above. I think your personal definition and notion of “single” is much more monolithic than mine.

Christopher
Member

“For instance, the Navy, Army, Marines and Air Force are different service branches of the armed forces, with different missions, yet they are one, single, military.”

Not so much, they compete for resources.

adad0
Member

A healthy culture has some internal competion. That’s why the military is a good example, in peace time and war time, there is inter-service rivalry, at the top in particular, but when it comes to action on the ground and the stategic and tactical mission, unified action is common and amazing.

insanitybytes22
Member

“We have been fighting in the right war, but have been fighting from the
wrong end. We have been fighting politically, which is most necessary,
but we have been fighting as through culture were irrelevant to this
political battle, which is why we have been losing it.”

Oh yes! That was certainly encouraging to read. I’ve about given up hope that conservatives are ever going to consider culture. It’s everything.

adad0
Member

Memi, this battle happens first and always, at the kitchen table, or the dinner table, with vegetable eating and homework doing, and then it progesses out from there. I would not be surprised if this is a battle you have already won! ; – )

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Immanuel Church in Nashville, where one of Doug’s favorite deep thinkers, N.T. Wright, sang “To hell with Jehovah! It’s God they ought to crucify!” from the pulpit is at it again. They have three questions all Christians must ask ourselves: First, What is it like to be black in America? What is the reality that black people face every day? How much more difficult are their lives just because they are black? Second, What is the reality of being poor in America? Are there two Americas, rich and poor? Third, What is the reality of being privileged in America? White… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

So once you have divided Americans neatly up into “white” and “black,” you immediately have trouble explaining why someone who descended from people who arrived here in the 1920’s from Lithuania owes anything to blacks whose ancestors were abused by Englishmen in the 1720’s.

Somebody needs to make a cartoon:
(A white-skinned person has just become a naturalized US citizen)
“Congratulations. You are now responsible for all the racial inequality and animosity in this country, BIGOT!”

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Said the guy named jigawatt!

LOL

Joe
Guest
Joe

And since the ‘discovery’ of the ‘gay gene’ the newest ‘race’ demanding our guilt is the LGBQT crowd…

Ive been wondering what will happen when a gay white cop shoots a straight black christian man. Or, a black cop shoots a white transgendered man…

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Ive been wondering what will happen when a gay white cop shoots a straight black christian man. Or, a black cop shoots a white transgendered man..

Two predictions:

1) Doug will write a poorly thought out and heretical post about it, with a lame pun as the title and theme.

2) Doug won’t dare write that “the only true victim” of the tranny shooting was Jesus.

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

When you get 4A&AK worked up, you’ve touched a nerve.

John
Guest
John

He’s shown himself to literally be a full on racist. I wish he would just get banned already. He never actually contributes to the conversation.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

He’s shown himself to literally be a full on racist.

Literally.

LMAO

“It was just dreadful, Mother! The literal full on racists were literally crawling out of the woodwork!”

John
Guest
John

I use the word literally to be better express the point. I’m not saying it figuratively. You’ve shown yourself to actually think that black people are inherently inferior to white people.

ashv
Guest
ashv

So what?

John
Guest
John

If you have to ask that question, then you’re included in my accusation.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I’m sure. Why should we, or anyone else, care?

John
Guest
John

It’s interesting. This argument is so obvious as to be rhetorical in nature to any non-racist.

ashv
Guest
ashv

In other words, you have nothing but point-and-sputter. The more people like you use the word “racist”, the less it moves people.

John
Guest
John

In other words, I’m not going to throw pearls before swine. There are some people who aren’t worth discussing with.

Stephen Anderson
Guest

Has Wilson now embraced “kinism”?

Jane
Member

Even to ask that question suggests you neither understand kinism nor read the post with much understanding.

Stephen Anderson
Guest

Seems to me that “kinism” is about genetic tribalism and Wilson’s post is about tribalism. Just asking a question.

Jane
Member

National Geographic is frequently “about tribalism,” too, but if you understand the way they talk about it, it is clear they are not a bunch of kinists.

Ditto Wilson. There are explicit statements in this post that would have kinists howling.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

If it were as complex and nuanced in real life as it is in blog posts I might agree with a majority of this blog. However, from personal relationship I can say, black men (no matter specific ethnicity) do not get the privilege of nuanced and careful consideration of who they are individually or even ethnically. In terms of the issues currently in play with the state of relationship between black men and the police, there is not nuance. This isn’t to say policing is the core issue, but rather a symptom of the reality of the racial divide and… Read more »

Christopher
Member

“In terms of the issues currently in play with the state of relationship between black men and the police, there is not nuance.”

“To attempt to throw complexity into this mix, the sort of complexity that tries to highlight a universal reality of people who deal with racism, is really an attempt to minimize the real reality we currently face.”

I’m pretty sure
“This isn’t to say policing is the core issue, but rather a symptom of the reality of the racial divide and awful race relations in our country.”
Is throwing complexity and nuance into the mix.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

Maybe for white guys like us…Not black men.

Christopher
Member

So you’re saying policeing is the core issue for black people? as opposed to “a symptom of the reality of the racial divide and awful race relations in our country”

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

I’m saying, the core issue isn’t policing, it’s a lack of relationship and honesty about the problem. The policing is a symptom not the core issue.

Christopher
Member

That requiers nuance in the relationship between blacks and the police.

Ryan Sather
Guest
Ryan Sather

maybe you aren’t understanding me. the issue isn’t primarily about blacks and police. The issue is relationships between black and white. Or, more directly, as the good doctor said, we simply don’t have a place for honest conversation about race.And the primary reason for this is a lack of relationships. Can I ask, do you have some close friends who are African American that you have discussed their perspective on these issues? I am simply saying, of course getting into the nitty gritty of race takes nuance. However, at the start, we must have a clear understanding that there is… Read more »

Christopher
Member

“The place to start is to say, as a white guy, I don’t understand what it’s like to be black in America. As a brother in Christ, will you journey with me and help me understand.” That helps you understand your brothers better, which is good, but that doesn’t give a generalized understanding of being black in america. “In so doing, I believe we open ourselves up to thinking through not just “individualistic sin” but how we contribute to systemic issues of race and justice.” You may understand how the system affects races diferently but that doesn’t tell you how… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Now I know have some commenters in some of my threads on race who believe they are being insulting to blacks, when they are actually insulting and taunting the power of the death of Jesus. Where some would see bigotry, I see something closer to blasphemy.

LMAO

I SCREAM

YOU SCREAM

WE ALL SCREAM

FOR BLASPHEME

Now with sprinkles!

insanitybytes22
Member

Sigh. Even a talking donkey can serve a purpose in God’s kingdom.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

Blasphemy.

LOL

Christopher
Member

Blasphlegmy?

wait, blast-plegm-y.

Jane
Member

If I may, I think the time has come for a “don’t feed the troll” request WRT to Charming Steve.