9 Theses on Pastoral Confidentiality and Child Abuse

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Introduction:

We unfortunately live in a time when child abuse is common, and given the way things are going, tragic instances of it are likely to increase. This means that those pastors who are involved in genuine pastoral ministry are going to encounter this particular kind of evil at some point, and ought not to be caught flat-footed when it happens. We are also living in a time when due process is increasingly in tatters, and we have to be prepared for that as well.falsely-accused

The Dilemma:

Let us begin with the outlines of the basic dilemma. In the first place, when plausible suspicion arises that child abuse has occurred or is occurring, the first priority is to ensure that it does not continue in the present circumstance, and that it does not continue into the future, in any other circumstance. In other words, you might be solving the problem in your youth group by dismissing the youth minister, but if he gets a job at another church in the next city, you haven’t really fixed anything. Predatory child abuse is a crime, not just a sin, and so in principle the civil authorities do have the right and responsibility to be involved, and at that point church officials have an obligation to involve them. The simple fact of a reporting requirement is not tyranny. And Christians with tender hearts need to remember that abusers are clever, calculating, ingratiating, and know how to work the Jesus game.

So how is there a dilemma then? The “authorities,” as we call them, have also become a massive part of our cultural decline. The average age of introduction to the world of porn is eleven years old, and who was it that made it easy for pornographers to insinuate themselves into homes? The authorities. Who is trying to mandate that local governments (and churches) allow sexually disturbed individuals into any restroom they please? The authorities. And remember these rest rooms are the one place where surveillance cameras are obviously not in operation. Who was it who determined that dismemberment and sale of children was a constitutional right? The highest authorities. Who is it that has abandoned our centuries-long commitment to the rules of evidence and the rights of the accused in child molestation cases? The authorities. And who was it that set up grooming classes in every government school, so that adults could easily introduce young people to a wide assortment of perversions? The authorities.

So this is the dilemma. A wise Christian pastor knows that a sexual predator should be restrained and prosecuted by the authorities, but he also knows that we live in a time when ungodly standards are often assumed by the authorities, and also when unreasonable suspicions are officially considered reasonable. When a kid can fall out of a tree in the backyard and break his arm, and that is all it takes for a doctor down at the ER to feel the need to call CPS, then clearly we live in demented times.

And so the dilemma is this. No conscientious pastor can be willingly complicit in a child having to spend one more minute under the control of his abuser, and no pastor can willingly turn over an innocent person to a system that will simply presume him to be guilty, and quite possibly make a hash out of the rest of his life. That really is a true pastoral dilemma.

So here are some suggested theses to help us work through the dilemma.

Thesis 1: First, Do No Harm

This is taken from the Hippocratic Oath, and is pertinent here. The goal of pastoral counseling in such tragedies is first to contain the damage, and secondly to bring biblical principles to bear, so that justice can be served, and then after that, if possible, do what you can so that forgiveness and healing can begin to occur. Unfortunately, it is possible for counseling to just make everything worse. There are times when an anemic response of a church to a child abuse tragedy is a response that simply makes the blast radius bigger. Instead of containment > justice > forgiveness, the drill that is sometimes attempted is forgiveness > no justice > no containment. The first thing for counselors to remember is that they are potentially part of the problem. They are not automatically part of the solution. Good intentions do not make you part of the solution.

Thesis 2: Discretion, Not Silence

Pastoral confidentiality does not mean that a pastor cannot report something that he learns in the course of pastoral ministry. If someone comes in for pastoral counseling and asks you to “promise never to tell,” and then proceeds to tell you where he buried the body, you are in a bad way. A minister should never promise to “not tell.” He can and should promise to be discreet with what he learns. He can promise not to put it on the prayer chain, but should never commit himself to “not tell” others on his ministry team or, as necessary, someone in law enforcement.

Rightly understood, pastoral confidentiality means that the state cannot coerce the minister into divulging what he has learned in the course of his ministry. The state is not to be the final arbiter of how the minister conducts his ministry. At the same time, if the minister is biblically informed, and understands biblical law, there will be occasions when he willingly reports a violation of the law to the civil authorities. Child abuse is one of the areas where this ought to happen.

Thesis 3: Legality and Morality Are Not the Same Thing

Laws concerning pastoral confidentiality vary from state to state. Every minister, and every elder board, ought to know what the law in their state is, and should have a church policy that takes that law into account. Taking the law into account is not the same thing as agreeing with it, or even agreeing to comply with it. But it does mean that the church should never be out of compliance through a blundering ignorance. If the letter of the law is ever disobeyed by a minister, it ought to be as a matter of conscience, with the eyes open, and with a willingness to defend what was done. It ought not to happen by accident because the counseling staff was winging it, or because the alleged offender was a friend of theirs from seminary.

The law of God and the law of man do not always agree. And ministers should resolve always to submit to the law of man insofar as it is consistent with obeying God’s law. It is not always consistent. Some may have recoiled at my earlier statement that a session of elders might take it upon themselves to disregard the law, and “who do you think you are?” But sometimes the question ought to be “who do they think they are?” Keep in mind that it is now a criminal sexual offense to change a baby’s diaper in the state of Arizona, and this will help you to never forget the legal dictum laid down by Dickens, which is to say, the law is an ass.

Thesis 4: All Behavior Has Unintended Consequences

We live in a fallen world which means that you cannot arrive at simple “solutions.” We must always factor in the problem of trade-offs. If your church culture is such that “no one ever talks about that,” then it will not be surprising if parishioners with reasonable concerns or suspicions don’t ever come forward. Nobody wants to be thought of as hyper. But if the minister automatically turns any alleged abuser in—say all the diaper changers in the church nursery—then that may well prevent (say) a suspicious mother in another situation from asking for help—because she wants possible help for one child without risking jail for another child. Now perhaps the other child ought to go to jail. That’s not my point here.

The point is that the way the church reports will affect how people in the church report. Setting a good example is important, but that good example needs to include biblical balance. If the church sets no example of reporting, they are making things worse, and if they set a wooden example, then they are also making things worse. The goal should be to deal with as much sin in a godly way as possible. If nothing ever happens in abuse cases, everybody clams up. You create a culture of shame. If massive over-reaction happens, everybody clams up. You create a culture of fear.

You don’t want your church to be Hush Chapel—“That Could Never Happen Here”—and neither do you want your church to be Wenatchee Witch Hunt Memorial—“kill them all and let God sort it out.”

Thesis 5: Not All Sins are Crimes But . . .

There is a difference between a small group of five-year-olds being naughty behind the barn, and an adolescent boy preying on a sister ten years younger than he is. The former is a sin, and ought to be dealt with as such, and the latter is a crime, and should be dealt with as such.

Counselors need to understand the principles that are involved in distinguishing one case from the other. What were the age differences? What was the actual activity involved? When you first uncover the problem, how sure are you that you know the full extent of the problem? Are the instances that you have discovered indicators of other instances two years later that were far more serious? A six-year- old boy with precocious sexual interest is unlikely to have those interests disappear just because he is thirteen now.

Not all sins are crimes, but all such sins are indicators of possible crimes. Make sure that your kindness is tempered with suspicion, and that your suspicion is tempered with kindness.

Thesis 6: Past Sins and Present Threats

The principle practical reason for reporting abusers is to keep the problem from being repeated. If the abuser is dead, or his whereabouts are completely unknown, and the abuse happened 25 years ago, then reporting is not an issue. You can’t do what you can’t do. But if credible information about abuse in your youth group 10 years ago comes out, and the alleged perpetrator is a youth minister in another church now, and you know exactly where he is, the chances are outstanding that the abuse is ongoing. You have a responsibility to act on the basis of what you now know. But keep in mind that you will sometimes have to help the victim with the consequences of reporting.

Here is another scenario. Suppose the perpetrator is serving a life in another state for a sexual offense, and someone in your church reveals in counseling that she was a victim as well. Do you just leave sleeping dogs lie because he is in prison? No, not necessarily. Sexual abuse is a crime with continuing effects, and finding out who the additional victims are enables you to get help to them now. “Did he have access to your sisters? Do you know if any of them were his victims?”

Thesis 7: Identifying the Victim Is Not Blaming the Victim

You are not “blaming the victim” if you are honestly involved in finding out who the victim is. A young girl abused by her stepfather is the victim. A stepfather falsely accused by his stepdaughter is the victim. If your approach is “ready, fire, aim,” it does not matter if you say that your intent was to side with the victim. That really must be your first priority, but getting the identity of the victim right is part of it.

In order to do this right, you have to make distinctions, and you have to keep your emotional balance. You must resist the enormous pressure to politicize everything. To object to ambulance chasers is not to display a calloused disregard for the pain of the people in the ambulances. To object to hypochondriacs is not the same thing as being insensitive to those who are really sick.

A biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of man should remind us that lies can be told in any direction. A predatory child abuser will lie about what he is doing. That is how he gets away with it. But those who are not abusers, who have not lied, can be lied about by someone who claims to be their victim. This can happen in nasty custody cases, for example.

Read the linked story, and then tell me who the victim was. Who was the victim there when the story first broke?

Thesis 8: Threats Have Consequences

In the story linked above, note that an innocent man copped a plea because of the legal pressure he was under.

Always keep unintended consequences in mind. In ancient Rome, slaves were not allowed to give testimony in legal cases unless it was under torture. They were assumed to have no moral character, and you could not trust what they said unless they were tortured. That torture was conducted in the courtroom. How barbaric, we say. How could they possibly trust testimony given under those circumstances? Don’t you see that you are just going to get the answer you want?

But I recently asked an expert on child abuse litigation how many abusers went to jail maintaining their innocence. Her reply amounted to “not many,” because if you are convicted and given a life sentence, you will not receive probation so long as you are maintaining your innocence. So suppose you were wrongly convicted, which can happen, and you were faced with the prospect of admitting what you did not do, in order to be out on probation after ten years, instead of spending the rest of your life in prison. Now what?

There are times when we get the answers we demand.

Thesis 9: Training is Necessary Because the Golden Rule Applies in Every Direction

I mentioned the “Jesus game” earlier. One problem is that predators in church environments are frequently the best practitioners of that game you ever met. They are smooth, outgoing, gregarious, and know how to make people trust them. They gravitate toward ministries where trust comes easily and where vulnerability is high. One of my daughters described the youth ministries of many churches as “potato salad at room temperature.” Sleep overs! Lock ins! Back rubs! Jesus!

But there are others who have figured out how play the victim card, and that has to be thought through as well.

Now I want you to run a thought experiment, and the results of it will tell you why training is necessary. The mere fact that I acknowledge that some accusations of child abuse could be false is taken by some as clear evidence that I want to enable child abusers. The fact that I know that many churches are configured in such a way as positively to invite predators is taken by some as me being against youth ministry.

Because the Golden Rule applies in every direction, pastors must acquaint themselves with these issues. There are organizations that can help your church guard itself against needless vulnerabilities. There are also organizations that can help if you suspect that an allegation may be false.

The central thing to keep in mind is that learning from organizations that help you protect the innocent is not in tension with learning from organizations that help you protect the innocent. How could it be?

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Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago

In the sense in which it’s being used here, the spelling is discreet. Now, back to reading….

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

And “principal practical reason,” dear Pastor Wilson.

The spelling police are on duty in your neighborhood!

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago

The Arizona law is ridiculous, and will undoubtedly be overturned. I have noticed church nurseries taking foolish risks with the safety of the children in their charge, as well as risking massive liability issues. It is undoubtedly sexist for me to say so, but I am not comfortable with young men working in the church nursery, nor with unsupervised teenage girls. My own church requires fingerprinting, a background check, and references for anyone who will be working with children, and I think that most insurance companies want something of the kind. In today’s climate I am reluctant to be alone… Read more »

JL
JL
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

It’s a strange world now, jillybean. We started attending a church that has an abundance of children. It is beyond delightful, but I find myself unwilling to engage with the children because I’m afraid of suspicion. Our discomfort is exacerbated by the fact that we have no children and don’t exactly know how to interact with them, and I’m sure that awkwardness shows. No one has given me cause for worry. In fact the adults are absolutely lovely, but the pagan culture has so affected me in this regard that I am afraid to pat a child on the head.… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  JL

It is such a different world. It is not quite so bad in Canada, although I would still be careful. When I was a teacher, I never thought twice about hugging students or putting a hand on a shoulder. When I started tutoring here, however, I was warned absolutely never, ever to touch a student. You will probably get more comfortable with the children at church. I found my daughter always enjoyed talking to people without kids. Often they pay more attention to things that parents have learned to tune out, like the interminable narration of movie plots or why… Read more »

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Conserbatives_conserve_little
8 years ago
Reply to  JL

Talk to the children,. Just don’t be alone with them.

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I think the fingerprinting and background check stuff is pure theater and insurance company lawyer repellent. It catches all the people who have already been caught before, few of whom would make it onto the nursery volunteer list to begin with.

However, it’s now mandatory in my state to get the background check (no fingerprinting as yet) so there we are.

References? Who am I supposed to get a reference from after raising my own kids for 26 years?

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Dunsworth

I know that problem! I have used clergy, schoolteachers for whom I have volunteered, Brownie leaders, and neighbors whose kids I’ve watched. I don’t mind having to get fingerprinted, but I wish they would centralize it. It seems to me it should only have to be done once; after that, there is supposed to be an automatic hit if I were to get arrested. The fact that each school or agency has sent me to get new prints has made me wonder how effective the process is. I suppose checking the Megan’s List registry is a good idea. California is… Read more »

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Can’t use clergy if the reference is for my own church since I’ve been in that church for decades. Never volunteered for school or watched other kids because I homeschooled. Didn’t do Brownies. Did ballet with the kids but I wouldn’t ask the people at that school for a drink if I was thirsty, after the way some stuff went down (and they probably don’t even know how I felt when I left, so it’s not like there was mutual bad feeling.) I’m not saying you shouldn’t find ways to reduce risk but institutionalizing everything this way is going to… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  Dunsworth

To be honest, references are shown time and time again to be one of the most effective aspects of background checks, whether they be for guns, working with kids, or whatever. Socially destructive people often have actual difficulty finding “clean” references to vouch for them. And they can be paranoid if they know they have engaged in suspicious rhetoric/behavior, and not know who to trust. And sometimes they don’t know what they’ve revealed, and trust someone they shouldn’t. Just asking for references scares a good number of dangerous people out of the pool. And I’ve screened out several employees based… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gavin de Becker, the security expert who was my guru on safety when my child was young, stresses the value of references. He says that people who would want references before asking someone to watch their wallet will happily hand over their child to strangers who have no one to vouch for them. He agrees with you that the mere thought that someone will call a previous employer will scare a lot of creepy people away. What I learned from him that I have really valued is that people get a warning instinct, and instead of heeding it, they try… Read more »

RandMan
RandMan
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

The Gift Of Fear. A truly valuable book. Jilly I think we have many books in common. In my opinion, the specific problem in the church is the idea that once you walk in the door you are considered to be in dialogue and action with a god and therefore more trustworthy somehow. This was the case in my church. It led to numerous cases of sexual abuse from both congregants and the pastor himself. Also, in most cases (still recognizing the outliers like Siltier), this was not babies in the nursery or toddlers being overseen by the women in… Read more »

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

References may be useful, but if you never want women who spent their lives raising children (probably the lowest risk and most competent group in the aggregate) to work in the nursery again, have at it. Because I don’t have anyone outside my church or family who could give me a reference for anything less than 26 years old, and I don’t even remember the people from back then.

All I’m saying is some balance is needed.

RandMan
RandMan
8 years ago
Reply to  Dunsworth

The fact that this conversation has shifted to women working in the nursery seems a little off-target. The vast majority of sexual predation is by males. The balance needed is to recognize that sexual predation will happen in environments that encourage it to flourish. Right in line with those are church environments that discourage the questioning of authority. One’s that tap-dance on the edge of treating sexual crimes as some sort of in-house morality issue to be solved by reading scripture as homework. Like Douglas Wilson does. I would be specifically wary of church environments as potential grounds for predation-… Read more »

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
8 years ago
Reply to  RandMan

I was specifically addressing only the usefulness of specific measures to combat abuse in the church. If you think that grandmas who have been in the church for 30 years, know every child in the church by name, and hang around with the parents and children in other settings frequently, need references in order to keep the kids “safe,” and that doing so actually makes the kids safer than not doing so, then we’ll just have to disagree. If you don’t fee that way, fine. And if you want to talk about something else, it doesn’t really relate to my… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  RandMan

Actually, it began with women working in the nursery! I pointed out that my church now requires background checks for all people who will work with children, and Jane and I started talking about the difficulty some of us who have been out of the workforce for years face in coming up with references! Gavin de Becker says that luckily he is in a position in which he does not have to watch what he says. He can say flat out that he does not recommend people to hire male nannies, which makes me believe he would not favor assigning… Read more »

RandMan
RandMan
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I see. My mistake there. When I read the initial DW posts, I then often skim and drop in on comments that I find interesting without slogging through all of the back and forth- I didn’t really scroll up for the overall gist. My bad. I agree that no one should hire male nannies. I have many lefty friends who would blanch at that as well- people who have not thought it through correctly, looked at evidence, or (fortunately for them) had any experience to give them pause. I am looking forward to the day my daughter is old enough… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  RandMan

The second book, Protecting the Gift, has some excellent suggestions on raising and protecting girls. How to bring up a daughter who can say no without worrying about hurting a boy’s feelings. How to raise a girl who doesn’t second guess her instincts. What to do when you’re afraid your daughter is dating someone your intuition tells you is no good. I found it invaluable. Of course,adhering to his advice meant endless humiliation for my daughter! Especially when I insisted on calling other parents to find out if she was actually on their guest list, if they served alcohol to… Read more »

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Conserbatives_conserve_little
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Background checks give a false sense of security

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago

I think they can. But if the prospect of a background check causes even a few problem people to rethink volunteering, I think it is worth it. It’s kind of like the person who smokes weed every day thinks twice about applying for jobs that require drug tests. But your overall point–that background checks catch only those who have been previously been caught–is undeniable. And the statistics on how many offenses pedophiles commit before they get caught are very troubling. When I was raising my child, my focus was on supervision rather than on any belief that the people she… Read more »

Bro. Steve
Bro. Steve
8 years ago

You call the cops when it’s reasonable to believe a crime has been committed.

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago

Doug, I suspect you have made yourself a lecture magnet on this one. There are lots of clueless “experts” on this issue!????

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago

Agreed with all the these, even if some of the preamble is a bit silly. But there’s one aspect that you’ve left out, and that is how you the pastor should continue to treat the victims after the abuse has been alleged. I have a foster daughter who was subjected to horrendous abuse, both in her early upbringing (neglect) and in her adolescence (sexual). She now suffers from a psychological disorder, which in part is likely related to the abuse she faced, and also acts out in various ways as she finds herself unable to control her emotions and relationships… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

J’, the “Women Freed” web site, featuring testimonies by some Christ Church women, who have experienced abuse, speaks to a high level of Godly victory over abuse trauma. I don’t dispute the deep damage done by sin and crime, yet neither can I dispute the recovery of some who have been through darker valleys than I have.
????

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I don’t disagree with you at all, and I have to hold out hope even in the face of a lot of difficulty. I’m just saying that it effects everyone differently, and everyone has their own path to recovery. I’m sure a lot of those women had periods in the middle-journey where getting publicly shamed by a pastor would have been more likely to send them away for good than to bring them to redemption. To engage in victim-shaming because their path is slower or with more pitfalls than the “heroes” who recovered the “right” way would be both counter-productive… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

We are in the same book, if not on the same page. One could say, that the prostitute, who washed Jesus’s feet with her tears, and dryed them with her hair, was “acting out”. She even got crapped on for it. But like Jesus said, she will always be remembered for it! ????
We love it when God “flips” suffering, and only God can do that, not pastors, or people!
????

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I understand that, Jonathan. The problem with BPD is that, although we know it is produced by childhood trauma, the symptoms can be so dramatic that the person loses sympathy when she needs it most. The person doesn’t fit our idea of how a “victim” should behave. The great consolation is, that if we can keep them alive and out of serious trouble, the symptoms do appear to abate after the age of 30. It seems to often be a dual diagnosis with some types of eating disorders. I have known some real success stories in ED programs–not with the… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Good thing Jesus knows all about shame too!????

Jonathan
Jonathan
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I really, really hope Pastor Wilson is reading this.

J Bradley Meagher
J Bradley Meagher
8 years ago

I basically agree with your article, but I prosecute these types of cases, and I take a good natured exception to you lumping me in with the “authorities” that allow sexually disturbed individuals into any restroom they please. Most states separate district attorneys/prosecutors from the attorney general’s office. Local county prosecutors prosecute crimes. That’s it. Civil rights, such as a transgendered guy’s right to suit up in the girl’s locker room, are handled by the AG’s office. Due process only winds up in tatters when people don’t follow the process. The process goes like this: accusation, investigation, then a decision… Read more »

Dave
Dave
8 years ago

“I wonder where your comment that we’ve “abandoned our centuries-long commitment to the rules of evidence and the rights of the accused” comes from.” JBM

It is good to hear that your office holds to the basics and the foundational aspects of law. However, that is not the case in California, Colorado, Idaho, Mississippi, Texas, Oregon, and in many Federal districts. In all of those districts, the individuals also took an oath, but they just don’t honor that oath.

Zachary Hurt
8 years ago

Perhaps the reference to abandoning the rules of evidence is directed at rape shield statutes? (just guessing here). As a (nascent) attorney myself, I’d be interested to hear what you think about those laws since I imagine you’ve seen how they operate in real time.

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago

JBM, glad you commented here. “Due process only winds up in tatters when people don’t follow the process.” That comports with what Wilson is saying. Here in Massachusetts, we have a new, bad, harassment prevention law, (258 E) which in essence, is a state aided civil law suit. I had such a fraudulent law suit filed against me, by a cult addled “church” group no less. (a group that also receives Federal funding.) Their law suit was vacated at first hearing, but the state won’t prosecute the lying plaintiff, or its’ self, for being complicit in the law suit. I… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I think the great difficulty in prosecuting the accuser is in distinguishing between a good faith but mistaken report and one that is actuated by malice. But I think that a first-time report of abuse that surfaces in the context of a marital break up or child custody proceeding should be viewed with massive caution and suspicion. I doubt that anything can be done about unethical lawyers who urge people to invent abuse accusations, but there ought to be. I have stated here before that I was appalled by attorneys who encouraged me to search my memory a little harder… Read more »

Dave
Dave
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

“A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing, then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days. The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Of all the wickedness involved in our system, making children lie has to be one of the worst. He or she will have the burden in later life of realizing he lied about a parent or other adult and perhaps caused them real harm. How anyone who loves their child could drag them into a marriage break-up or weaponize them in a custody dispute is beyond me.

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Jilly! Glad to hear you were a straight up gal, even with regard to your ex. I am not suprised. ; – ) I am seeing that one issue us “normal” people have, is thinking that government is like MacDonald’s, in that you can get the same thing everywhere. However, with government and Justice, that is not the case. This woman, Kathleen Kane, was an AG, and now she is headed to prison: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/16/us/trial-kathleen-kane-pennsylvania-attorney-general.html?_r=0 Strangely enough, her beef was with a prosecutor / investigator involved in the Jerry Sandusky child abuse case. She did not think he was agressive enough.… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I will keep you and the situation in my prayers. I think it is a temptation sometimes to lie in the hope that greater justice will be done, but it is always not only wicked but short-sighted. Cops find that out when they lie on the stand, and the case gets thrown out. Your plaintiff may have become so obsessed with her crusade against men that she stopped being able to tell the difference between truth and lies. I think that is what I hate most about our political situation–the lack of concern for truth. As long as the liar… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago

I think people remember only the horror stories, and I think prosecutors have a thankless task. I live in Los Angeles where the rates of serious physical child abuse are high. The same people who are up in arms at doctors who report broken bones are the first to condemn social workers and prosecutors for not protecting children. When my child’s shoulder was dislocated and I took her to emergency, I was certainly aware that it was the doctor’s duty to make sure it was an accidental injury, even if this resulted in an investigation.

Wendell Dávila Helms
Wendell Dávila Helms
8 years ago

There may be functional legal protections against unjust criminal prosecutions. There are hardly any protections against getting your children taken away from you. One’s children are pretty good leverage, aren’t they?

OKRickety
OKRickety
8 years ago

Excellent article. “Rightly understood, pastoral confidentiality means that the state cannot coerce the minister into divulging what he has learned in the course of his ministry.” That likely was the original intent, however, one finds that the concept of confidentiality is extended as far as it is convenient to the minister, elders, or other church leaders. For example, rather than telling the soon-to-be-ex-husband what his wife is claiming regarding her reasons for divorce, the minister will consider it to be confidential information, preventing direct discussion of the issues by the parties involved, and certainly avoiding any application of Christian discipline… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

Such a “pastor” is not submitting to The Word.

Ephesians 4:25

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.

OKRickety
OKRickety
8 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I’m not certain that I would necessarily equate withholding information with lying or speaking truthfully, because, although it does have some similarities, I do think it is sometimes appropriate to withhold information. For example, I don’t think everyone should know that person X was abused as a child.

On an unrelated note, is it just me or does it seem like ME has been unusually cranky in the past month or so? I even wonder if the proverbial “she needs to take her meds” might actually be the case.

"A" dad
"A" dad
8 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

If a godly person thinks a fellow Christian is on sin,Jesus requires us to speak with the fellow Christian about their alleged sin. If a spouse is saying their spouse is abusive, at some point godly people are obligated to take the allegation to the accused spouse.
As for memi, it seems like you and she have come to a better understanding. Considering where she has been in her life, some comments on this blog twang her emotions where others are not so twanged. I hope she comes back. She expands the breadth of sincere comment on this blog.

OKRickety
OKRickety
7 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

“A better understanding”. Ha! Here’s an example of her behavior today: ME’s response to my comment I have hardly, if at all, commented on her blog or responded to any of her comments elsewhere for, I would guess, at least two weeks. In the post itself, she states “I really, really just want to have a cup of coffee with you and chat, laments my soul, but yowsers do they cast me out with a vehemence that reminds me of mean girls in middle school.” In the comment I want you to see, she states I have “cranial rectal inversion… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
7 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

Hey Rick, Always glad to hear from you! The election is taxing my emotional reserves, so I am not following Memi’s blog as much as I used to. As I always say, people operate from an emotional footing first, which then dictates how “rational” they will be in thought and speech. I like that Memi’s emotions are quite visible in her positions, though my emotions don’t range where her’s do on some issues. I do appreciate that she and I can have a functional conversation, because her emotional soft spots, are similar to those of some folks I am having… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

I think you are very kind and fair-minded. I will be glad when this election is over. It is making people edgy more than in previous elections.

"A" dad
"A" dad
7 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

As the mop tops once said:
“I get by with a little help from my friends.”
You included Jilly!????????????

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  OKRickety

I think you have too, but people’s emotions are hard to deal with especially when it’s hard to know where they are coming from. But you did your best, and nobody can do more than that.

mkt
mkt
7 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

“She expands the breadth of sincere comment on this blog.”

The village misandrist? Surely you jest…

"A" dad
"A" dad
7 years ago
Reply to  mkt

Well,…there is a lot of insincere comment on this blog!
I may not agree with Memi on every point, but she does have some good ones that I would never come up with myself.
Being able to communicate with someone who is pretty different has some value. This is not the case with people like Rachel Miller.

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Conserbatives_conserve_little
8 years ago

Some will find this helpful. Clara Hinton was the wife of a minister who was a pedophile. She did not know it when she was married to him. She has since written a blog describing what her marriage was like with the hope that readers will see what pedophile behavior patterns look like. http://www.findingahealingplace.com

Valerie
Valerie
8 years ago

You seem unaware that that great majority of abuse crimes and sexual assault crimes which are reported to police are never prosecuted due to lack of evidence. (This means only what it says; there’s a distinction between what is real and really happened and what can be proved in a court of law.) You seem to think that your local judiciary has an automatic no-investigation, no-process, no-defense, no-trial system that immediately takes off the heads of anyone who is accused of a crime. If that’s how it is in Moscow, the rest of Idaho is not like that. Refusing to… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
8 years ago
Reply to  Valerie

I agree with you that, once an accusation has been made, the elders of a church do not have the resources to discover if it is credible any more than they can decide if a sudden death is natural. Under our system, law enforcement must be told. On the other hand, I think that if a body of elders has solid reason to believe an accusation is malicious and untrue, that is also information that should be shared with the police.

RW
RW
7 years ago

This article is nauseating to read. There are very, very few falsely reported instances of sexual victimization. Do not spend most of the text making sure we are aware of that. The fact that the only example in this text is an example of something that happens in less than 2% of reported cases makes it very clear that Mr. Wilson has a distorted view of these matters. It is easy to see why that would be as he has a history of mistakes in the area of keeping abusers from committing further harm. Until Mr. Wilson has faced the… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  RW

I agree with your suggestions, and I think they are only difficult to accept because people innately shrink from the idea they and their Christian loved ones are not personally trustworthy around children. I don’t know the statistics about false accusations, but I do know they sometimes arise in the context of child custody disputes. I have seen this personally, and the attitude has been: “Make the accusation and let him disprove it if it isn’t true.” I don’t think this entitles someone in authority to simply dismiss the allegation. But it probably accounts for a tendency to view these… Read more »

RW
RW
7 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I have worked In several different capacities that have given me a view into family life and I think you are right, we don’t want to think these things happen. For the sake of all children: we need to get over our aversion to acknowledging what really goes on and recognize that dysfunctional families come in every shape and social group, and there are far more of them than we want there to be. And I do want to challenge you to consider that children are at the mercy of their parents and authorities in their life while the adults… Read more »

M
M
7 years ago

“No conscientious pastor can be willingly complicit in a child having to spend *one more minute* under the control of his abuser . . .”

Hm. Guess that’s why you don’t object to Sitler spending time with, and in future possibly living with his child who he victimized in the past and who will be in danger every moment Sitler is in his life.

Double speak, and therefore worthless.