Thomas Umstattd Jr. recently made a splash with his article “Why Courtship is Fundamentally Flawed.” To be perfectly honest, I thought a number of his points were very good, like frosted flakes in the bowl glinting in the morning light of your quiet breakfast nook. But I also thought, retaining the honesty theme here, that a number of his other points were like mushrooms that somebody stuck in there.
His good points were the kind of points that would be made by sane people anywhere, whatever steps in the mating dance they might want to use. I am a courtship advocate, and yet have often said that the courtship model too frequently means that six idiots are involved instead of two. So my purpose here is not to defend indefensible things, like courtships from Hell, or power-tripping fathers.
Nor do I want to be dismissive of some of his other good points — such as courtship ramping up an unnecessary intensity for some folks. Sometimes courtship is treated like a done deal, like a fait accompli. Billy is courting Suzy, let us say, and people bustle up to Billy at say, “Congratulations!” That is like being congratulated that you applied to Harvard, and you haven’t even taken the GREs yet.
Whenever you have a lot of human beings doing something, a good number of them are going to do it with less wisdom than others. The bell curve follows large populations inexorably. So nothing said here should be taken as a dismissal of Umstattd’s right to point out the problem cases. I myself have seen more than a few.
But as someone who helped to put the courtship paradigm on the map, I do think I have a responsibility to respond to some of the mushrooms. The mushrooms in this instance would be those areas where he solves problems that are not necessarily problems, or where he fails to account for other obvious possible explanations for the problems he sees.
An example of the first would be his discussion of divorce, and the problem presented by those who thought that courtship was divorce insurance. Why are so many couples who courted now getting divorced? His whole article is directed at solving this problem (along with the problem of people who haven’t been able to get married at all), but he acknowledges that we don’t really know if the divorce rate is a problem.
“Then couples who did get married through courtship started getting divorced. I’m talking the kind of couples who first kissed at their wedding were filing for divorce. The deal was that if we put up with the rules and awkwardness of courtship now we could avoid the pain of divorce later. The whole point of courtship was to have a happy marriage, not a high divorce rate.”
His reasons for writing include this high divorce rate, but his evidence for this is anecdotal, which he acknowledges. But he still assumes — in one of his headers — that the courtship divorce rate is in fact high. “Why the Courtship Divorce Rate is So High.”
He calls for research on the courtship divorce rate, knowing that we don’t really have hard numbers to go on. But if this is the case, then why are we calling for solutions?
“Right now all we have little research to go on in terms of the courtship divorce rate. In my observations, some homeschool communities have a much higher divorce rate than others. I would be very interested in seeing some research on this phenomenon. This blog post is my call for more research on the divorce rate amongst couples who ‘courted’ before getting married.”
But he is clearly doing more than calling for an investigation to find out if there is a problem. He is proposing a solution to the problem.
In my experience, this high divorce rate that he assumes is not at all the case. A number of years ago I was speaking at a conference, and in the course of one of my talks I made a point about the divorce rate among Christians being as high as the world’s, and was corrected later by the other speaker at the conference. The numbers I was relying on were taken from Gallup, which means that you also have to take Gallup’s idea of what a Christian is. The other speaker (Rob Rayburn) said that the divorce rate for the marriages he had performed was a tiny fraction of the purported number among Christians. I though huh, and after I got home, we counted up all the weddings I had performed. Hint — there were a lot of them. We also counted up the divorces that had happened out of all those marriages. The divorce rate was something under five percent.
This means that we shouldn’t be returning to traditional dating in order to solve the divorce problem caused by courtship until we know whether or not there is a divorce problem caused by courtship. And then, if we find that there is a high divorce rate in certain sectors of the courtship world, as Umstattd acknowledges might be the case, then we should make it a point to consider other possible factors. Courtship is not the only thing going on here, right?
“I grew up as a member of the homeschool community.” “Each year I waited for courtship to start working and for my homeschool friends to start getting married.” “I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers.”
So is it the courtship, or is it the combination of courtship and homeschooling? Note that I am not making assertions here, but rather saying when you are troubleshooting a problem, you need to be willing to look at all the factors.
For example, Umstattd points out that getting together in groups, for example, can be challenging. “The other challenge with group settings is that they are logistically complex.” Now I think that this can be true for homeschoolers, but our kids went to a private Christian school, K-12, and groups were never a problem. At the very least, by the time my kids graduated, they knew very well how guys and girls ticked. Getting this information was not difficult at all.
And since most long-term relationships don’t start in high school, I should mention something about the culture and community here at New St. Andrews. We have no “rule” about courtship at all, but it would be fair to say that basic assumptions about courtship have gotten down into the level of certain cultural assumptions. In this setting, I have seen a lot of couples get together — but they have gotten to know one another in countless situations over the course of months and years. This means that when the courtship formally starts, the intensity that Umstattd notes does not present the zero to sixty problem that would occur otherwise. But perhaps the problem is not where courtship is, but rather where the homeschooling was.
Another factor that Umstattd tends to downplay is the suitability of the individual.
“I know several godly, hardworking and attractive homeschool guys who have been rejected by as many as a dozen fathers. I respect their tenacity. Getting turned down by courtship fathers is tough on guys because the fathers are rarely gentle or kind.”
Looking at it from the other direction, between my two daughters I talked with 16 guys. If you do the math, you will readily see I turned down 14 of them. This is not a bug; it is a feature. And the 14 I turned down showed up at very different places on the spectrum. Some of them I respected highly as stand-up Christian guys, but my wife and daughter and I agreed it would not be a good match. Others had special issues going on their heads, and t’were better if we left them alone until those issues come to some sort of resolution.
One of the possibilities to consider is that our generation has produced a surplus of maladroit suitors, and when the father turns them down, the problem is mysteriously assigned to the father. The problem is supposed to be that he is “rarely gentle and kind.” But in the cases I had to deal with, I was always gentle and kind — and I know many fathers who were kind to the young men who came to them, whether or not they were turned down.
The weird thing here is that the more obviously unsuitable a suitor was, the less likely it would be that he would see me as being gentle or kind. A bad match can be dramatically obvious to everyone involved except for one person — which is why it would be a bad match, come to think of it.
He also says that the “Bible is surprisingly quiet when it comes to laying out a system of courtship.” I don’t think this is the case, and I would refer anyone interested to the biblical case that I lay out in my book. And here is the second appearance of a link for those people who want a little help buying my book. Okay. . . a third time . . . because you insist . . . buy my book!
And last, the title of this post is obviously a riff off his title — I am seeking to explain “Why Courtship is Fundamentally Awed.” This title involves more than me trying to have a case of the cutes — although there may be a little bit of that too. Here is the actual thinking.
“There be three things which are too wonderful for me, Yea, four which I know not: The way of an eagle in the air; The way of a serpent upon a rock; The way of a ship in the midst of the sea; And the way of a man with a maid” (Prov. 30:18–19).
The way men and women get together is a grand mystery. Those who want to reduce this grand mystery to a paint-by-numbers approach, whether that safe and predictable approach is a “courtship” approach, or a clunky approach to traditional dating, are missing something important. Systems won’t solve personal problems.
Wise people live wisely, and finding a spouse is part of that life. It is not possible to live wisely unless you are constantly in awe of the really mysterious things — such as a wise man embracing the mystery of finding a wise woman.
As I said in my contribution of 5 Paths to the Love of Your Life:
“The problems that arise do not arise because of courtship but rather because of sins such as dishonesty, lust, a domineering spirit, and so on. This is also the problem in the other models discussed in this volume. The problem is not the model; the problem is the people. And so the question that faces those who are arguing for one model over the other is not whether or not people will sin in the name of this model. The question is which model best anticipates and guards against the inevitable sin. And the answer to that question, in my opinion, is the courtship model” (p. 80).
But with that said, wise Christians who got together by dating are far better off than foolish Christians who think the book of Proverbs stipulates how close to the girl a suitor may sit on the third visit. Sure. But remember the bell curve. Sane people who date are better off than courtship nerds. Absolutely. But courting couples are better off than a lust monkey who has made out with 13 girls, your daughters being two of them, before exiting junior high.
Wisdom matters more than the model — but the model still matters.
So, “my grandparents dated and they turned out just fine.” If we could just work backwards in time and find that sweet spot of secularization and rejection of Biblical tradition where we can maximize autonomy and minimize consequences. Our grandparents built the world we live in today.
“The way men and women get together is a grand mystery.”
Yes, I’ll never understand it. Just thinking about it scrambles my brain!
My own thought on skimming Umstattd’s article related to the divorce claim. It suggested to me, not a fault in courtship, but rather that people were Doing It Wrong. Part of the process of courting was to establish that the other person was the sort with whom you would work things out when (not if) the frictions of life, and of two sinful people becoming one, broke up the honeymoon. You know, to actually keep the promise you make in your vows. Perhaps it is just my own definition, but if you tell me you courted and then divorced, I… Read more »
I was hoping you would write a response to Mr. Umstattd’s article after I read it. Thank you for taking the time to address his article.
And now for a word from amen corner- amen. I’ve been frustrated by the high praise our brother’s piece has received in sundry corners of the inter webs. Troubled not because I’m some doctrinaire knight errant in defense of courtship but because the lack of reasoning in this piece was profoundly atrocious. It’s one thing for a frustrated young man to publish a badly reasoned article on the internet, another for otherwise mature people to praise it. I got the feeling that the whole, “Well, I don’t really know, but would love to see some research done” was a writer’s… Read more »
The Thomas Umstattd article was chockablock full of logical holes and undue connections—non-sequiturs, even. The good reading was in the comments section—lots of back-and-forth there. I (and my wife) have navigated these treacherous waters safely and successfully once already, are navigating as we speak, and will most likely live to sail one more time before the nest is empty. Our middle, Hannah, is currently being pursued, er, courted, uh, oh—just out with it—intentionally dated by a fine young man who has demonstrated his faith, his diligence, his work ethic, and his desire to treat Hannah like Christ treats the Church.… Read more »
“…but because the lack of reasoning in this piece was profoundly atrocious.”
“…chockablock full of logical holes and undue connections—non-sequiturs, even.”
RC, Jr–we just cross-pollinated.
(o:
Nicely done.
My concern in Umstattd’s article is one that I am seeing on other people’s blogs.
Why are we reducing life down to making following God look a lot like Algebra?
If A+B=C then C-B=A so then you should have a Christian spouse at age 25. We cannot force God into a corner making Him give us what we expect because we followed the formula correctly.
Shouldn’t it be that we do what we do, not to fulfill our expectations or lusts, but to honor God?
This is just fantastic Doug!
Mr. Wilson you were CORRECTED? Where’s your arrogant blustering? Where’s the bloviating? I thought you were so obtuse you never admitted wrong?!
=p
I’ve heard that before too, that the divorce rate amongst Christians is the same as the world’s, and I’ve been suspicious for awhile about it too.
Thank you.
Yes and amen! Thank you. My thought reading the original article was that the fundamental flaw of courtship is that people are involved. That isn’t going to be fixed by going back to dating. That said, I appreciate your comments regarding courtship problems. Regardless of how well the structure is, people sin, sin is stupid, so people will do stupid things–even parents. I had a couple of friends that from all I could tell did everything correctly in contacting fathers, but in more than one case were never properly turned down (no response after months). Other fathers put up ridiculous… Read more »
Along with some research on courtship divorce rates, how ’bout some research on courtship marriage rates, too. Which model is more likely to actually get people to the altar?
Pastor Wilson, thanks for your post. I was one who was attracted to Umstattd’s article immediately, but perhaps too quickly. Question: For me the problem was never fathers who were unkind. Every father I spoke to was very kind, that I can remember. I spoke to 10 fathers. My concern was what effect does my conversation with the father have on his daughter? Are there two men trying to get her to make up her mind now, instead of just one–before this one has even made himself vulnerable to the young lady? I honestly don’t know the answer to this.… Read more »
Jake,
You’re right. I would argue a father who won’t approve a suitor unless he vows to live nearby isn’t giving away his daughter but adopting a son she can sleep with.
Having lived the “maladroit suitor” side of things and experienced a failed courtship as well as a successful one (in Moscow no less), I have to say Umstattd gives a very accurate description of the reality of it. The pseudo-engagement (wow were my first “dates” awkward), emotional scarring, clueless parenting and long periods of recovery were all in attendance. It is hard for me to have any sympathy for the reasoning behind courtship when in practice it is a playground of egos and cruelty. It pains me to have to watch another generation go through the rigmarole and I can… Read more »
Thanks, Doug. So glad you addressed this.
YES!!!
That is all.
One thing that is baffling is how many people somehow think that it’s a good idea for non-communicant members (or if you’re Baptist, unbaptized children who have not professed faith; or if you’re paedobaptist… well… members that just haven’t professed faith yet) to date/court/whatever… or perhaps just haven’t given thought to it. It is one thing if a person has not professed faith because of rebellion. That obviously needs to be dealt with. Sometimes the rebellion is unknown or just not fully manifest yet. But let’s give the best scenario: say it’s because of immaturity. If someone does not understand… Read more »
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Doug, I love reading your blog, I loved you in Collision, and I read Black and Tan, which I didn’t love. Here are my concerns with courtship: 1) How do you know whether you’d like to marry a girl, when you don’t know her? My primary issue with “courtship,” is that we’ve created a situation in modern evangelicalism where a young man must be 85% sure he wants to marry a girl (according to Rick Holland) before he even asks her on a date. What about guys who are a little older, are faithful members of the Saturday morning men’s… Read more »
@Uiop –
I’m glad you made the comparison to Communism and Courtship. I thought the exact same thing!
One more thing:
Has anyone else noticed that all of the leaders advocating courtship have no practically experience with it? I mean, maybe the advocate for it now, but all of the people I know that advocate for courtship or some silly approximation actually met their spouse through a completely different means. Something more akin to traditional dating.
You lay heavy burdens on men that are for them to bear, and you yourselves will not lift them with one finger!
Hi Doug, Thanks for your response. I have read your book, but it is in Virginia and I am in Sandpoint on vacation. I have 5 boys, one who is ready to look for a mate, and a 17 yr old going on 25 who has a girlfriend but is actually following a courtship model of sorts. The biggest problem I see with the courtship model is that expectations seem too high. If it doesn’t work, the debris looks a lot like a divorce. Conventional dating avoids that, but when you are only with that person when you are all… Read more »
And from the other Amen and amen corner – Thanks and amen
It makes since that no one is going is going to be all that comfortable with courtship since we haven’t had any cultural reference for several generations. Dating isn’t all that comfortable either, for that matter. You single guys that are having difficulty with the concept, pretend that you’ve met a girl that you are attracted to but that belongs to a strange foreign culture that values chastity.
I feel like if a person has to write an entire book to prove a supposed point from the Bible, the biblical argument must not be that strong. It’s like the prosecutors who have to try people for weeks because they have no direct witnesses.
This is the thing which the Lord doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best . . . . (Numbers 36:6).
Uiop wrote: It is hard for me to have any sympathy for the reasoning behind courtship when in practice it is a playground of egos and cruelty. It pains me to have to watch another generation go through the rigmarole and I can only tell them “Yes, that’s how it actually works.” I’m sensing some bitterness, and attempts to universalize one’s own experience. We need to focus on principles, not on anecdotes. If we just want to engage in anecdotes, the one-on-one American dating system would crush the courtship approach in terms of nightmare experiences. So leaving that aside, the… Read more »
Interesting (and, I think, telling) that you don’t refer people to the Bible here.
Doug, This was very well written and I appreciate your views and how you shared them. I read the initial article that started all of this, and I was proud to see it because it meant something was being questioned on it’s merits rather than just being accepted as right. I’ve enjoyed yours for the same reason. I don’t think courtship is at fault for divorce any more than cows are at fault for sour milk, but I do think it’s an arbitrary methodology for delivering our children into marriage. The divorce problem is a commitment issue more than a… Read more »
Drew J wrote:
To affirm his maxim, Drew J follows up with only a partial quote of Numbers 36:6. We could assume that he didn’t want to appear guilty of quoting an entire verse to prove his point from the Bible, but it may have had more to do with the patriarchal authority that inserts itself, rudely, in the last half of that verse.
Proof-texting is not for the feint of heart.
The last half of the verse has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Don’t be childish.
If I could court a girl for 7 years like Jacob and end up with her and 3 others, that would be great!
Ken Miller and Katecho both bring up good points. There needs to be the thought of honoring God, but we are living in a society in which most Christians are coming from broken families, not some, but most. Certain churches have congregations which atypically are comprised of intact, nuclear families, but they are rare. There needs to be real teaching for these Christians. Another subject which needs more teaching includes courtship and second marriages.
Hi katecho, As I mentioned, I have experienced both a failed and successful Moscow courtship. As you probably surmised from that I’m happily married and have my own family now (for quite a while). I would say the “courtship” part of it was a hindrance to our relationship rather than a help. And you are correct, my post is purely anecdotal as my goal is to give a “from the trenches” perspective of how this is playing out for me personally and other men of my acquaintance. Not sure what to do with the bitterness accusation (the trump card of… Read more »
You could count me in the courtship advocate category however my own experience was extremely frustrating. It wasn’t frustration with ‘courtship’ per se, but with the mixed signals that I’ve received from courtship proponents. I heard on the one hand in our circles that men are dirtbags, blockheads, etc and they should get married as soon as possible. On the other hand they’re told that they need to be able to support a wife. The young man is told”you’re not ready” and the older man is told “you’ve sinned by waiting too long”. For the guy who is just looking… Read more »
“I feel like if a person has to write an entire book to prove a supposed point from the Bible, the biblical argument must not be that strong. ”
This has to be the dumbest thing on the internet this week, and that’s quite a prize. After 2,000 years of Christian letters, we find out that no point from the Bible should need “a whole book” to prove. A whole book. Think of it.
steve wrote: “The biggest problem I see with the courtship model is that expectations seem too high. If it doesn’t work, the debris looks a lot like a divorce. Conventional dating avoids that, but when you are only with that person when you are all dolled up doing things that you both like, you don’t usually learn what you need to know about the other person.” Not so fast. Let’s not pretend that courtship implies unreasonable expectations and that conventional dating magically “avoids that”. Dating doesn’t avoid expectations at all. In the broader unbelieving culture, there are often expectations of… Read more »
Truth is usually less complex than you seem to imagine. Also, I didn’t say that “no point” requires an entire book. I said that a weak point does.
At the end of the day, when kid’s have grown up and are starting to date or “court”. I believe it is there choice as adults too make. If they want to kiss all the frogs to get to there Prince or Princess then i’m sure they wont come away from that being naive about the people they will meet in life. My husband and i would have never met, let along dated if he choose to go long with what he was taught as a child. Sure, parents are accountable for there childrens actions to a certain age but… Read more »
Hey Katecho, I think the point of the article in discussion is that the current model of courtship includes some pretty unrealistic pressures, like deciding whether you want to marry a girl before you ever take her out for coffee. That’s almost always the case with courtship. That’s part of the package. Everyone I’ve heard of read that advocates courtship (or something similar) makes that point explicitly clear. Sure, dating might entail some similar pressures, but it’s not necessarily the case. I think you’re also bringing some assumptions into this about dating being a way to hide what you’re doing.… Read more »
Ken Miller wrote: “I think the point of the article in discussion is that the current model of courtship includes some pretty unrealistic pressures, like deciding whether you want to marry a girl before you ever take her out for coffee. That’s almost always the case with courtship. That’s part of the package. Everyone I’ve heard of read that advocates courtship (or something similar) makes that point explicitly clear.” I suspect there is a misunderstanding. I’ve never heard that one has to decide to marry a girl before he can court her. If everyone advocating courtship has actually said this,… Read more »
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the article. I realize this is late and I suspect I won’t get a response, but I’ll throw a few things in the water. First, I am surprised at how much you cite what is going on in Moscow. You mention the number of weddings you did not end in divorce. You mention the amount of time girls and boys spend together at Logos School and also at NSA. You mention all the times you fairly turned down suitors (given Bekah and Rachel’s abilities this is unsurprising) and all the times… Read more »
Kate, the disagreement here is based on the fact that you’re ignoring the way “courtship” functions in practice which is why the anecdotes are necessary. No one is advocating the undesirable aspects of dating that you’ve listed. But the reality is that applying to court a young woman in practice has turned into almost asking to marry her. Where Pastor Wilson describes rejection of a potential suitor as one that occurs in agreement with his wife and daughter. My experience was that I met a woman from another church through mutual friends, expressed an interest in her, and was directed… Read more »
Robert hits the nail on the head when he combines Ken Miller’s and Katecho’s comments. Much more needs to be done to address the fact that there are many Christians who are coming from backgrounds which haven’t exactly followed the ideal model. Even if you came from a Christian home, sometimes you might have gone through some trials of your own before getting married and ending up divorced. How are older Christians, who might have been promiscuous in youth and/or wound up divorced, who are now trying to find love in accordance with God’s Word, supposed to meet eligible mates?… Read more »
What about the betrothal model? I have been reading articles over at http://truelovedoesntwait.com and they seem to make a pretty thorough case for it from the Bible.
It is interesting the “….” DrewJ left out of Numbers 36:6 “only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry.” That really limited their choice! Did they perhaps only have the responsibility for choosing because their father was dead and they received an inheritance?
av wrote: “I talked to him and met with him, and after a period of time he let me know that he wasn’t going to let me see her. I found out after the fact that it wasn’t something she agreed with her father about, but at that point there wasn’t anything I could do about it. I suspect my experience is closer to what those who empathize with the original article see than it is the rejected suitors of Pastor Wilson’s daughters.” Nobody likes to be rejected, even if the reasons are perfectly valid. I can empathize with that… Read more »
A daughter should make decisions about marriage, or else her father should just do it. It is extremely impractical to let BOTH daughter and father decide independently, with each having veto over the other. Assume, for example, that Doug Wilson gave one of those fourteen “stand-up Christian guys” who has approached his daughter the option of going into battle, to prove his worth by collecting one hundred Philistine foreskins. Under “courtship,” proving worth to the father alone would be insufficient. The boy might satisfy all the father’s conditions, and then still have the daughter blow him off. This is a… Read more »
Regarding Umstattd’s article, I agree with a number of his concerns about some people’s approach to courtship. However, no matter what “courtship” process people have gone through over the centuries, whether it was recreational dating, parentally supervised courtship and betrothal, or an arranged marriage, for a couple to flourish in marriage they must be mature. The best preparation for marriage is walking with a humble heart before God, because no matter how we approach marriage, it is sure to challenge the self-centeredness of immaturity. I spend 30+ hours a week counseling Christians in troubled marriages and have noted that their… Read more »
av wrote: “The question is what changes can be advocated so that unmarried Christians in their 20s are able meet each other outside of special circumstances such as a school.” Brian Marr wrote: “Finally, a question that I really would like a response on: how should homeschoolers get out more?” and Krista writes: “How are older Christians, who might have been promiscuous in youth and/or wound up divorced, who are now trying to find love in accordance with God’s Word, supposed to meet eligible mates? Within the courtship model, their colorful pasts could potentially be perpetually held up in front… Read more »
Drew J writes: “A daughter should make decisions about marriage, or else her father should just do it. It is extremely impractical to let BOTH daughter and father decide independently, with each having veto over the other.” Contrast with: “Honor your father and mother” (which is the first commandment with a promise)” — Ephesians 6:2“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.” — Proverbs 12:15“Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed.” — Proverbs 15:22 Drew J continues: “Eventually, strategies and cultures that discourage… Read more »