Introduction:
Rachel Held Evans has recently argued that a vote for Hillary Clinton is not inconsistent with a pro-life ethic. There are any number of confusions involved in how she presents the case, but I am going to try to limit myself to addressing just three of them.
I want to limit what I say to those things which are relevant to the pro-life issue, but without intimating that the other issues surrounding the Clintons are unimportant. The Clinton metropolis was built in its particular location deliberately, with nothing accidental about it. Thinking ahead, they built the whole thing on top of a vast aquifer of corruption. The people living there are not going to run out of brown water for hundreds of years. I say this simply to set the stage.
Is Humanism Pro-Life?
I actually am grateful that RHE is pro-life, but she has been so compromised by her other commitments that her pro-life understanding has gotten pretty anemic. When you combine the following language with the fact that she is supporting the candidacy of Hillary Clinton, one of the most ardent defenders of abortion to be found anywhere, I trust you understand that what we are dealing with is kind of pro-lifey, but is not really pro-life. The emphasis is mine.
“Or, put another way, as a Christian, I believe the sacred personhood of an individual begins before birth and continues throughout life, and I believe that sacred personhood is worth protecting, whether it’s tucked inside a womb, waiting on death row, fleeing Syria in search of a home, or playing beneath the shadow of an American drone.”
Worth protecting. What does that mean? If you read her entire post, it means leaning encouragingly and hopefully in certain directions, in the idea that leaning that way might have something of an effect on the percentages. When I think of protecting children from dismemberment, I mean something like “outlawing dismemberment.” I do not mean moving from 1.2 million abortions a year to 1.1 million abortions a year.
Notice also how the standard in her statement is “life,” not God’s law. An innocent life in the womb with no trial at all is considered to be on the same plane as a guilty life on death row, after a fair trial. I am glad she wants the children to be left alive, but her standard is humanism. Human life is the source of her law, instead of God’s law being the source of human dignity.
The Wrong Victim:
I have felt for many years that atrocity photos of abortion victims are generally counterproductive. Instead of shocking people into a realization of what we are actually doing, the general result is that people recoil in disgust into the comforts of their previous thoughtlessness. The only notable exception to this were the Planned Parenthood sting videos of recent memory.
Unfortunately, RHE provides us with an example of this kind of retreat.
“I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been called a ‘baby killer’ by conservative Christians, some of whom routinely sent me images of mutilated fetuses during my pregnancy, which is no way to treat any woman, regardless of her views on abortion.”
Now if and when these things happen, they ought to be discouraged. As a matter of tactical wisdom, I do believe that photos of healthy children in the womb have done far more to set back the pro-aborts than atrocity photos do. I generally grant the tactical point, one that I believe RHE would probably agree with. But I don’t grant the moral one; I don’t grant the legitimacy of her misdirected indignation here.
Her reaction is revelatory. A photo of a dismembered child is sent to RHE. The legal status of that child (constitutionally deceased) is affirmed in the strongest possible way by the candidate that RHE is going to vote for. RHE is a mother, and is carrying a child that will not have these awful things done to him or her. So let us agree that a pro-lifer shouting “baby-killer” at RHE is not among our most effective rhetorical warriors. Let’s not make him the general. But there really is another person involved in this exchange, which would be the dismembered child.
RHE’s reaction here — “no way to treat any woman” — is comparable to an ante bellum plantation mistress dealing with an irascible and outraged abolitionist, one who sent her a photo of a black man stripped to the waist and with “slavery tracks” all over his back, and her response is to tell him that sending pictures like this “is no way to treat a white woman.” Right, but at the end of the day it is not your back.
What It Really Means to be Holistic and Pro-Life:
We can’t just be pro-life with regard to the child when they are in the womb. The argument is that we have to fight for “pro-child” policies that deal with all that extensive time outside the womb, as in, the rest of life. But this is confused code for “we might have to leave the child safe and secure in the womb, but we can make up for it by adopting policies that ensure that the child will be born into a society that looks like Venezuela with a ratty version of Detroit in the middle of it.
Socialism in all its forms is a poverty machine. It is an inexorable state of the art poverty factory.
But RHE apparently differs:
“Data suggests progressive social policies that make health care and child care more affordable, make contraception more accessible, alleviate poverty, and support a living wage do the most to create such a culture, while countries where abortion is simply illegal see no change in the abortion rate.”
Data suggest, do they? Progressive social policies help to make the clouds fluffier, the unicorn manes silkier, the Utopias utopier, do they” I trow not.
There is no economic wordfog that has been more soundly debunked than “progressivism” has been. Nobel Prize winners have refuted it with cricket bats. Best selling authors in economics have taken it on with canoe paddles. Other smart people with four foot lengths of half-inch rebar have left their own welts. Nothing is more like sweeping water up your driveway with a push broom than socialism. The only thing that gives it the energy to continue on is the indefatigable power of envy.
“Thinking holistically about pro-life values means thinking beyond the labor and delivery unit. If we don’t address income inequality in this country, and if we don’t support robust plans to improve health care and education, we simply can’t sustain the very lives we’re advocating be protected.”
What is described as the problem here? The problem is that old culprit “income inequality.” But what on earth could possibly be wrong with income inequality?
If I have food and shelter, why is it a problem for me if anyone else has more food and more shelter? If I don’t have food and shelter, then that is the problem, and it is an objective one. I am hungry and I am getting rained on. But unless I am going without because some thug took my stuff, my lack is not caused by what anyone else possesses. And if someone did take my stuff—for such thugs do exist—the chances are outstanding that it was someone from the government.
There is a difference between relative poverty and absolute poverty. The former is based on comparisons, and the latter is not. Someone is objectively poor if they are living in a cardboard box, and are going to die within the week because of a lack of food. Someone is relatively poor—in the United States—if they have to make do with an iPhone 4.
If you are going to bring Jesus into economics, as RHE wants to do, it ought not to be into a form of economics that will destroy everything, leaving it a smoking ruin. If you want to speak in the name of Jesus to a cripple, telling him to rise up and walk, the result ought not to be him keeling over while clutching at his heart.
So yes, we want a pro-life ethic that extends throughout all our lives, and which overarches everything we do. Of course. This means that we must embrace the law of God, the law of liberty, the law that is consistent with free grace, free men, and free markets. The end result will be that we don’t use the power of government to take their lives or their stuff.
“When I think of protecting children from dismemberment, I mean something like “outlawing dismemberment.” I do not mean moving from 1.2 million abortions a year to 1.1 million abortions a year.” Well, ok, but a couple of things: 1. Outlawing abortion is about on the level of world peace right now. You have no institutional support for it, no cultural support, and basically no realistic path to achieving this for the foreseeable future. 40 years of this has been 40 years of failure. 2. Moving abortions from 1.2 million to 1.1 million might not sound very exciting, but what if… Read more »
I wouldnt call recent repub efforts ‘tried and failed’, nut as far as outlwing goes:(mostly)left untried.
Hear hear! My problem with the pro-life movement is that I can’t quite see Jeremiah or Isaiah being a part of it. I fight against my own pragmatism all the time, and by fight, I mean give in to frequently. But ultimately I believe the pro-life movement has been pragmatic instead of resting on principle. Can you see Jeremiah excitedly writing about how children over the age of 2 are no longer allowed to be thrown into the furnaces of Molech? “Just one more year,” he writes, “and we’ll get a new king and pass mishnah 2.27.14 which will make… Read more »
You would think that given Killary’s lack of individuation re: neo-cons she must be pro-life. According to her own conspiring emails, she destroyed Syria “for Israel”(heck she even armed the only wholistic wilson style pro-life political body/isis:see said emails). Im even willing to bet dollars to yellow-cake donuts or cigars that her urine has tested as negative for abortifacients as the purifieing blood pouring from the Levant. In fact not only is her for. Policy twin to the Pro-Life inc., but her obfuscation and network of enablers is only a more seemless garment than of church kids and their ‘secrets’.
For context, here is Hillary Clinton in a Meet the Press interview with Chuck Todd: CHUCK TODD: When, or if, does an unborn child have constitutional rights? HILLARY CLINTON: Well, under our laws, currently, that is not something that exists. The – the – the unborn person doesn’t have constitutional rights. Now, that doesn’t mean that we don’t do everything we possibly can, in the vast majority of instances to, you know, help a mother who is carrying a child and wants to make sure that child will be healthy, to have appropriate medical support. It doesn’t mean that you… Read more »
They are only children to the mother, if woman says bad. then bad. Abortion does not exist without feminism. Feminism does not exist without abortion.
Seems to me that the only likely path to outlawing abortion involves a military coup.
Nullification by lesser magistrate could do it, but currently these lessers all appear to be addicted to the crack cocaine of federal fiat “money”. He who takes the king’s money dances to the king’s tune.
When the federal fiat gravy train implodes, I expect nullifications and secessions to begin in various directions.
Wouldn’t it be bizarre to see a new “Lincoln” try to start a civil war over the “right” to kill unborn babies?
Succeeding at this would involve a military coup.
How so? If a lesser magistrate simply shut down Planned Parenthood, and other abortuary “providers”, within their jurisdictions, they would not need a military coup to do it. The higher magistrates might react and try to use the military to force the issue, but that’s not a military coup, and such a response would require a permanent military presence to maintain the enforcement. It seems there are lots of ways to make it very uneconomical to try to impose bad laws upon a righteous lesser magistrate and a generally supportive community and law enforcement. I agree that one lesser magistrate… Read more »
Find me an example of it ever happening and I might take your argument more seriously.
The duty of the lesser magistrate to disobey bad law and bad rulings has a long history. One example of the exercise of this principle was the Confederate South. Perhaps ashv has heard of them. The South took the principle all the way to secession from the union, and they ultimately were overwhelmed, but it was not given from the start that they would lose. I hope that ashv does not describe their efforts at legal secession as a military coup. For another example where the actions of lesser magistrates was successful, see this story. No military coup was required.… Read more »
I agree that when the central government is weak and split into factions, there can be successes on these fronts. This may be true about abortion at some point, but I highly doubt it is today — and won’t be so long as we’re plagued by principled conservatism.
Indeed. Roy Moore will probably be removed from office for his one-man insurrection. That’s a democratically elected, politically-conservative judge who has already been removed from the same office for his acting as a lesser magistrate and refusing to remove the Ten Commandments from a state building who is seriously under threat of being removed for telling probate judges that state law hadn’t changed despite a federal judge — and this is here in Alabama. When the Feds want to force and enforce their way on a contrary lesser magistrate, it seems the odds may be in their favor. It looks… Read more »
And as I’ve said in other conversations on this subject, God grant us sheriffs who are willing to deputize bulldozer and backhoe operators to do the Lord’s work or tearing down clinics and salting the land on which they stood, and willing to arrest any utility worker who dare reconnect utilities to a clinic after they’ve been cut. And give us city councils and mayors who request such services. That’s not talking about some civil war, either. It may still be pie-in-the-sky, but if Baltimore’s mayor can get the police to stand back and give looters and rioters some room… Read more »
“It looks like lesser magistrates need the backing of greater numbers.”
One of the key parts of doctrine of lesser magistrates is that when the magistrate stands up to defend the law, the Constitution, or whatever that the people stand with him. If he does not have their support, then his opposition will lead no where.
ashv didn’t define “principled conservatism”, so I have to take that remark as a potshot in the same tone as his tendency toward unconstructive cynicism. The examples that I mentioned above required magistrates with principle, and even a willingness to go to jail. This is a kind of courage that doesn’t comport with cynicism or populism. ashv didn’t question these as examples of the exercise of the duty of the lesser magistrate, so I assume we are past that objection. Perhaps he will follow through and take the principle more seriously, as he promised. ashv was asked to describe in… Read more »
Let me try to be more precise then: there are exactly two cases where the rebellion of a lesser magistrate will succeed: persuasion of the superior power to his point of view, and military victory (in other words, escaping or replacing the superior power). “Coup” is just one form of the latter. Hence my examples of cannabis laws vs desegregation. My snipe at “principled conservatism” was aimed at the belief that “moral victory” is the same as victory. I agree that a lesser magistrate is duty-bound to oppose and resist ungodly laws and commands, but I insist that we understand… Read more »
To put it another way, this sort of thing can succeed when there’s either lack of scrutiny from the central government or an active decision to selectively enforce things. I think abortion is more like segregation (which was not ended by protestors and activists, but the 101st Airborne) and less like cannabis legalisation, at this point in time.
Ok. Colorado and Washington State declaring weed legal, contra the federal government.
If every person responsible for policy decisions in the federal government was resolutely opposed to cannabis legalisation, how long do you think this would last? (My point is that this is about selective enforcement, not “nullification”.)
???? No Bill Clinton style lounge lizards, no abortions.
All guys could Word up, humble down, man up and be moral.
Word salad.
Oh. Like the Bible?
Yes, “‘A’ dad”, your writing style is exactly like the Bible.
????????
Commentor ashv has repeatedly said he identifies as “anti-abortion” instead of “pro-life,” and you can score a point in favor of his suggestion here. Because when it gets down to it, we are against abortion not because we’re life fetishists but because abortion is wrong. Much of her essay is centered around applying the term “pro-life” “consistently,” which conveniently means enacting every modern-day socio-economic-progressive agenda item there is. But terminology is only half the problem here. Ultimately, her argument could be revised to state that Hillary’s positions on refugees, taxes, welfare, etc. outweighs her stance on abortion. At which point,… Read more »
Peoples takes on Rachel’s post here. This is the damning analogy (and spoiler if you want to read the whole post). Dear voters, I know you may be torn about the prospect of voting for Killary. I know you might think that black lives matter, and you are opposed to all these lynchings. The other candidate says he opposes lynching, just like you. I get it. But I want you to think more pragmatically. Killary says that black lives don’t matter, that killing a black is a matter of choice for the white owner. But if you actually look at… Read more »
Someone hit the nail on the head. That’s an example of effective satire and the serrated edge.
On inequality, it is a most unhelpful rhetoric in the war for truth. The inequality we actually see is likely due to various evils, but the focus on inequality is absolutely misguided. Are the inequalities there because of vice or not?
We have vast sexual intercourse inequality in the world. Some are getting a lot and some none at all. Clearly the government needs to redistribute all the sex so everyone gets the same.
Umm,
Isn’t this idea what the Clinton foundation is all about?
Seems like “sex redistribution”,
is Bill Clinton’s personal avocation,
and demominating interest!
Who knew that would take so much cash?
LOL! Seriously, we need to stop suggesting such things. Bill Clinton has taken that redistribution to heart.
This made me Laugh Out Loud, bethyada!
Talking of endorsing candidates, while Wilson disagreed with Grudem, it seems that Merrit may have a point as well.
News update: CNN fact-checked Trump on his response to the Erie, PA heckler. It turns out the man’s mother died 20 years ago and has been a faithful Democratic voter ever since.
“If we don’t address income inequality in this country, and if we don’t support robust plans to improve
health care
and education,
we simply can’t sustain the very lives we’re advocating be protected.” RHE
Hmmm.
The Host here, creates value by publishing, helped found and run a K-12 school, and helped found and run a College. That sounds pretty supportive and “robust” to me.
I wonder if Rachel Held Evans founded a Hospital? ; – )
I wonder who she means by “we”?………… Hillary Clinton and herself?
“An innocent life in the womb with no trial at all is considered to be on the same plane as a guilty life on death row, after a fair trial.” That’s a tough one, but I totally agree with her. We’ve set up the abortion argument to be based on the worth and value of human life. So a child can now be dismissed an no more important than a clump of cells. And someone on death row is perceived much the same, as not having worth and value as a human being, condemned, beyond redemption. When we kill someone,… Read more »
I find this an odd comparison. From the standpoint of judgment/consideration for life, consider: 1) An aborted child. Along with the death of that child, a potential lifetime worth of experiences, emotions, relationships are wiped out. Would he have had children of his own? Would she have been a productive member of society? How many lives would have interacted with that human being whose life was snuffed out intentionally? The destruction of one innocent life is infinite in its repercussions. 2) Someone who is murdered. Just as with the aborted child, here again is the destruction of someone’s mother or… Read more »
So Rachel Held Evans thinks the data suggests progressive social policies make health care more affordable, alleviate poverty, and support a living wage (whatever that is)?
Entire countries beg to differ. Apparently Evans has never heard of Venezuela, Cuba, the Soviet Union (and its many satellite countries), North Korea, or Greece. And I’m guessing Evans isn’t up on current events, otherwise she would know that socialist Brazil isn’t exactly looking good right now in the way it’s handling the Olympics.
“Since China began enforcing the One-Child Policy in 1980, over 37 million girls have disappeared in the world’s largest gendercide and over 336 million forced and coerced abortions have occurred under the policy’s reign. But there is hope! Check out the All Girls Allowed movement and find out how you can join what God is doing to bring an end to these injustices!” ALL GIRLS ALLOWED. “Data suggests progressive social policies that make health care and child care more affordable, make contraception more accessible, alleviate poverty, and support a living wage do the most to create such a culture,” RACHEL… Read more »
Amen. Bernie Sanders’ fans hated it when I called him the American Chavez, but they never had a decent rebuttal.
On a side note, I’m getting tired of hearing how abortion rates are dropping, while use of abortion drugs continue and are not reported. What we really know is that /surgical abortions/ are dropping. The clinics don’t have to report a medication abortion.
Patronising much?
“I actually am grateful that RHE is pro-life, but she has been so compromised by her other commitments that her pro-life understanding has gotten pretty anemic.”
At least her ‘other commitments’ don’t include being pro gun ownership.
Now that would make the label ‘pro-life’ rather less than credible.
Doug, your understanding of poverty in this country is as poor as Rachel’s understanding of complimentarianism. Sadly, you both show little desire to be fair with the topic you think you so fully understand. Someone who understands poverty in the US could never make a joke about iPhone 4s so mockingly as the biggest concern of someone in poverty. Do you really think that’s what a young 6 year old boy is concerned over when he tries to fall asleep on a mattress infested by bed bugs and no father to care a lick about his hopes and dreams? You… Read more »
“Someone who understands poverty in the US could never make a joke about iPhone 4s so mockingly as the biggest concern of someone in poverty.” I hear you. How do we help Wilson to understand better? How do we help conservatives in general understand poverty issues? Wilson words are like a slug in the gut to those of us who know the truth. There’s a disabled guy I know right now who is homeless, hardly ever gets enough to eat, everything he owns is in a bag, and yes he has an i-phone. What he doesn’t have is hope, or… Read more »
Your charge against Wilson here is a good example of how the telephone game goes bad.
To say I’m making a charge is to imply there is some kind of “crime” involved. It’s not a crime to be unaware of the truth and reality of the issues he is often unaware of.
I don’t wish to see him “charged,” I want him and those who follow him to open their eyes and to hear what people are saying.
If I call it an ‘accusation’ is that ok?
No, because whatever others may be doing, I am not “accusing” him of anything, I am simply observing that he seems to have the same conservative perceptions of poverty that I often encounter in others. So why does the country at large tend to keep rejecting those principles and voting us closer and closer to socialism? Because the conservative perception of poverty is often harsh, judgmental and incomplete. So in the grand scheme of things, RHE’s words are going to resonate and carry far more weight then Wilson’s, because they are far more engaged with what it really means to… Read more »
If your ‘observation’ is accurate, then you are accusing Doug of being harsh, judgemental and having incomplete knowledge. Truth often is offered to us in this fashion.
As far as I know, being “harsh, judgmental, and having incomplete knowledge” is not a crime, so no accusation. An accusation is, “a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.” I make no claims that anyone is doing anything illegal or wrong.
I am simply observing that this is a reason why conservatives are forever losing elections and why the general public perceives them as unworthy to handle poverty issues.
Sather, you show contempt for the living God just about every time you flap your gums around here. You’re a liar and a hypocrite; the fact that you act as if you have any credibility means you’re delusional as well.
But while we’re on the topic of poverty, you progressives certainly do love poor people, don’t you? You’re constantly trying to make more of them.
Ok FP, whatever you say…your logic matches your intelligence. Both are equal to the sum of 0*1.
Sather, you have a long way to go before you can say you’ve learned the art of the insult. Right now you’re below the “I know you are, but what am I?” level. Really, it’s pathetic. I’m sure your nine-year-old could do better.
I don’t have a 9 year old
Ryan Sather 16 days ago, on the Rachel Held Evans thread: “Almost as good as my 9 year old on that skill.”
Sather, unless your nine-year-old turned ten within the last couple of weeks, you either lied on that thread or you’re lying now.
Seek help.
Just had a birthday ????
Had his birthday…
He had his birthday
Then all you had to say was, “I don’t have a nine-year-old anymore.” What a difference one word makes.
BTW, three responses, all saying the same thing? Time to get back on your meds there, champ.
Sorry about that, any time I’d post for some reason it’d disappear and I thought I hadn’t posted
fp, whoever you are, please don’t engage Ryan anymore. Proverbs 26:4. Thanks.
Yes, whatever you do do not engage with someone who is bringing truth to the table. It could sway us from the lies we love to scratch our ears with.
Now we know you’re delusional. You’re not swaying anyone with your tripe.
David, take a peek at the verse that immediately follows. Thanks.
I did. But this verse comes first for good reason.
Noted. But the other verse exists for a reason as well.
So what’s your Biblical definition of poverty, Ryan? One where many who live “under the poverty line” are obese and live near middle-class lifestyles if they play the gov’t entitlement game right?
First, to clarify, what you outline above is not present in our country. What government entitlement game do you refer?
By the way, I think The Chalmer’s Center has best resources for understanding poverty in our country and globally. I find this definition to be biblical and from personal experience very helpful when working in the midst of poverty: “Poverty is the result of relationships that do not work, that are not just, that are not for life, that are not harmonious or enjoyable. Poverty is the absence of shalom in all its meanings.” – Bryant Myers, Walking with the Poor That is why it is essential to begin to attempt to mend the evils resulting from poverty one must… Read more »
Surely you are not suggesting that poor people lack a right relationship with Jesus? Is this a Calvinist doctrine I’m unfamiliar with? I thought the poor were especially beloved by our Lord.
I am suggesting that core to issues of poverty are issues of relationship both with God and others. You would disagree with this? You are correct in stating the poor have every advantage to understanding who they are you comparison to God in their need for a savior.
I don’t understand your last sentence, and wonder if there is a word missing. I believe that irresponsible (or sinful) choices can lead to poverty. Clear examples include drug abuse, or having children out of wedlock, or divorcing for frivolous reasons. But there are many godly and responsible people who are poor through no fault of their own. I also believe that the poor may realize their need for a Savior more than we do. It is easy, when one is well fed, well housed, and enjoying the pleasures this world has to offer, to conclude that there is nothing… Read more »
Sorry about that yes it didn’t come out the way I thought it had as I was speaking into my phone. Here is what I would say: 1) I do not believe that poverty is part of God’s original design, but believe it to be the result of sin. 2) in terms of those who are living in poverty I think both systemic injustices and personal sin contribute to those realities. And I think the definition I quoted above talking about the core issues relating to relationships that are broken is very helpful. 3) I agree with you and would… Read more »
Don’t forget IQ. Low intelligence is a strong predictor of poverty, especially on a national scale. Basket case nations have low average IQs, while wealthy nations have high average IQs.
Same thing goes for individuals. Many people simply aren’t smart enough to make it on their own.
BTW, the reason I like the definition above is because in the very definition it does not assume the issue of poverty is only about relationships the poor have and don’t have. Both rich and poor fall inside the definition.
“Poverty is the result of relationships that do not work, that are not just, that are not for life, that are not harmonious or enjoyable. Poverty is the absence of shalom in all its meanings.” Oh, amen to that! It can be very challenging to try to demonstrate that to people of a more conservative bent. All in good humor here, but what generally happens to you is a complete lack of shalom and the severing of all relationships. So, those cast outside the inner circle fight back the only way they can and unfortunately that is often about having… Read more »
I do think, mkt, that we must remember the poor who refuse to take government benefits and who, perhaps through a sense of pride or shame, are reluctant to appeal to their families and friends for help. I think we would be shocked how many such people there are. There were times after my husband left me that there was food only enough for my daughter. I used to joke that it was a good thing I was anorexic! But, although I would have accepted help, I would never have asked for it.
I remember reading about a homeless woman in a town where I lived several years ago. One of those who push a grocery cart around, if I remember right. Supposedly she wouldn’t accept help. However, one woman mentioned how she would leave a sandwich or something around where the lady tended to hang out. Apparently that she would eat, as long as she could pretend she just found it. Some people found her quite appealing. Sometimes the people you feel bad for are just living the life they want.
I think that is often true for the homeless, and as long as they are mentally competent, I guess they can choose.
But some of our laws about this are crazy. In California a person who has food in the house but refuses to eat it can be institutionalized as gravely disabled, especially if they are old. But a poor old lady with empty cupboards, who would eat if we gave her groceries, can’t be.
BJ, I used to get just as much out of the comments on this blog as I did the posts. Then, awhile back, Ian decided to start feeding the troll (ryan slather)…and the thread hijacking began. If we could all ignore this guy the quality of conversation would return to the way it use to be. I could never stomach to give slather the time of day.
NTT, you can use the “Block user” feature on any Disqus profile. I’ve found it immensely refreshing.
The burden of proof is on Ryan Sather to show that Doug has anywhere said that the only kind of poverty in the US is relative/iPhone 4 type, because he sure didn’t say it here.
What was the context of the article in which Wilson responded? He was responding to an article that was making the case for helping thosein poverty in our country. His only reference to poverty in our country was to say relative poverty. And in the US is equal to iPhone envy.
The context of the article is RHE explaining how Hillary would be great for our country. Hillary has dedicated her life to advancing policies that ostensibly “help the poor”. About 9 times out of 10, she, and RHE, are talking about the relatively poor when they advance the progressive agenda. And the one time out of 10 that the progressive policies are ostensibly* directed to help the objectively poor, they fail miserably. * I have to use that word, because, of course, Hillary and her ilk are just using the poor as a means to maintain power. If the poor… Read more »
You aren’t going to get any argument from me on the stupidity of the way liberals like Hillary use the poor for their own gain.
I think both Hillary and RHE are wrong in how to go about tackling poverty in our country.
My point was, Doug was respondingto this article discussing how to go about helping the poor. And his answer was to minimize the poor in our country by acting like our poor have iPhone envy. That sort of thing is as unhelpful as the things Hilary proposes.
My point was, Doug was respondingto this article discussing how to go about helping the poor. And his answer was to minimize the poor in our country by acting like our poor have iPhone envy. You don’t seem to understand Doug’s distinction between objective and relative poverty. The fact that there are indeed relatively poor doesn’t mean there aren’t objectively poor as well. Doug made the distinction between the two precisely because people equivocate on the two. Nobody but nobody (except maybe a select few commentors here) thinks we shouldn’t “help the poor”. But when Hillary, RHE et al say… Read more »
Literally reading this the day I ordered a refurbished iPhone 4 for $90 (from Ting) – a step up, by the way. Feeling relatively under privileged ;)
And if someone did take my stuff—for such thugs do exist—the chances are outstanding that it was someone from the government. Sure. I see this in the local crime stories all the time. Witnesses described the carjacking suspect as a librarian. Three more people had their iPhones stolen last night. Authorities suspect a ring of Municipal Planning Department employees is behind the thefts. A police sketch artist’s composite suggests the purse snatcher is a DMV clerk. That’s why in black neighborhoods you see so many businesses and houses with metal bars in the windows – they’re there to keep government… Read more »
The government doesn’t come in through the winow.
The government doesn’t come in through the winow. Doug says that when people have their stuff stolen, odds are their stuff was stolen by a government employee. Well, in heavily black neighborhoods, many black people put metal bars over their windows to keep people from breaking in and stealing their stuff. So black people seem to disagree strongly with Doug. They seem to think that the odds are very high that if their stuff is going to get stolen, it won’t be someone from the government who steals it – it will be one of their black neighbors. In other… Read more »
“Doug says that when people have their stuff stolen, odds are their stuff was stolen by a government employee.”
Doug says that when his stuff is stolen odds are it will be by a governmet employee, I immagine to rectify some income inequality.
Are you implying that the people kept out by barred windows are concerned with an equitable distribution of wealth?
Are you implying that the people kept out by barred windows are concerned with an equitable distribution of wealth?
No. I’m implying that you’re not nearly as smart or witty as you seem to think you are, and you’d be doing yourself a big favor if you’d stay out of discussions on here that are over your head.
Which are most of them.
Only most?
If you want to make an offhand comment about wealth distribution into a statement about crime rates in black neighborhoods then points for trolling, but your whits and smarts aren’t quite up to snuff.
You have got stop posting these completely asinine comments in reply to me.
You’re about this close to joining Demo D, Katecho, Christian Histo, and Dunsworth on my blocked list.
Meh I can’t think of a reason for you not to block me, although I find it interesting that you find others posts more insufferable than mine. There’s a good chance we’re better off ingoring each other.
Them pigs are always trying to get into take that weed
At what point exactly did the edict go out that authors have to include every perspective from every level of society in their writings? That’s not even possible. He specifically said, “If someone stole MY stuff …” His understanding of being poor in America may not be complete, but again, why not address his actual argument, which is what is wrong with income equality? Perhaps because there is no good answer that doesn’t involve socialism? And when Jesus said, “The poor you will always have with you,” is it possible he meant there will always be poor people with us?… Read more »
Cool story, bro!
Duuuude.
I don’t know what state you live in, but every time I goto the DMV the clerk snatches my purse and then some.
Rachel Held Evans has recently argued that a vote for Hillary Clinton is not inconsistent with a pro-life ethic.
Um, didn’t “Thabiti Anyabwlie” recently say he’s going to vote for Hillary, and explain why?
Isn’t he pro-life?
And, in response, didn’t you spend three or four posts gushing about how your respect for him has grown tremendously?
Maybe you should pick a more African- or Caribbean-sounding name and you’d get more respect.
Maybe “Toussaint L’Overture”?
Everyone should post the list of people on here they’ve blocked on Disqus.
I’ll start. Here are the people I’ve blocked:
Demo D
Katecho
Christian Histo
Dunsworth
A few others are likely to be joining them.
I wear rejection as a badge of honor, please consider me next. I love being troll meat.
Maybe you could do a public service by telling everyone else what they need to do to get you to block them.
Shouldn’t you be at a meeting to build coalitions among ftm, mtf, bayot, crossdressers, sadhin, hijra, transvestites, bantut, drag queens, drag kings, mahu, transsexuals, bakla, travesti, genderqueers, kathoey, two spirit, intersex, and whatever the hell else freaks and pervs are calling themselves these days?
Shouldn’t you be worried that you actually know enough about it to be able to list all those abbreviations and terms? I consider myself reasonably well informed culturally, and half the stuff on your list I’d never heard of. This is obviously something you think about a lot. Is there something you’d like to share?
Plumbers typically know a lot about sewage.
See my response immediately above.
I have a friend whose son is studying at Covenant Theological Seminary.
He keeps me up on all the newest frontiers of Diversity, and the lingo.
Sorry, not buying it. I am aware that pedophilia exists, and I have strong opinions about the subject, but I’ve never been interested enough to educate myself about the minutiae of what pedophiles actually do. And if someone (whether the son of a friend or not) tried to educate me, I would most likely change the subject.
You, on the other hand, seem well aware of the minutiae of what non-heterosexuals do with their time. I think it’s a fair assumption that we know about stuff that interests us.
Homos are a trip.
They try to convince you to say that sodomy is a a good thing, and if you refuse to go along, they accuse you of being gay!
What kind of person thinks the worst way to insult someone is to say they’re like you?
LMAO
Gay pride, indeed.
Juxtaposing homosexuality with pedophilia is a funny thing to do after one argues that homosexuality can be a good thing in society.
Not just can be, is. But the point of that analogy was not to compare the two, but to point out that when someone is obsessed with something, there’s usually a reason.
Look, Norman Neal Williams, I write about race on here about 100 times more than I write about gays.
But I do read a lot.
And those terms are NOT “minutiae” of what “non-heteros do.” They’re simply a list of synonyms for tranny, many of them of foreign origin.
It took about two seconds on google to find that list.
(Although I was a bit shocked that one of the terms wasn’t Krycheck.)
My daughter’s best friend in elementary school came out at as a lesbian at Berkeley. Her partner is in the middle of transitioning, but none of us can tell from the person’s appearance in which way this transition is happening. If this person becomes a man, will my daughter’s old friend now become straight?
As I was saying earlier, sexual orientation for women is an entirely different thing than for men.
The founder and head of Siriux XM, a very intelligent but highly obnoxious Jewish man, converted to trannyism a few years back. But he never got the operation, AFAIK. And his wife (who’s black) stayed with him.
But I believe I’ve read that some women whose male lovers do get the operation end up staying with them post-op.
Yes, they do. I think that women who are not religious may not be as gender conscious as guys are. I have been told ad nauseam that you fall in love with a person, not a gender. (This is part of the lectures I receive from my Special Snowflake who wouldn’t date a girl even if she paid her.)
It all comes from Martin Luther King of Kings.
He taught us that physical characteristics are of no importance, and the only thing that matters about a person is their character, and only a despicably wicked person gives any weight to someone’s physical characteristics, which are simply “an accident of biology.”
If it’s wrong to categorize a person by the color of their skin, how in the world can it be OK to categorize them by what’s between their legs, which you can’t even see?
“If it’s wrong to judge a person by the color of their skin, how in the world can it be OK to judge them by what’s between their legs, which you can’t even see?”
It depends on what judgement you’re making about them.
“I think that women who are not religious may not be as gender conscious as guys are.”
That sounds like a natural side effect of feminism.
“I have been told ad nauseam that you fall in love with a person, not a gender.”
Gender is an atribute of a person. If you change the atributes you change the person.
I agree, and I think most of still believe that instinctively.
Oh, I don’t think you want me to be gay, not after I kicked your butt (metaphorically, of course) on the empirical evidence issue. Losing an argument to a fag would, I’m sure, be very traumatic for you. Almost as bad as Donald Trump losing to a girl.
Yeah, you kicked my butt.
Sure you did, Norman Neal Williams. Sure you did.
Demanding “empirical data” that some gays look quite a bit like their boyfriend/husband.
Just like here where you said my spending two seconds on google to find some synonyms for tranny is an “obsession” and therefore I’m probably a homo or tranny.
What an imbecile.
Homosexuality is inherently selfish and narcissistic. Men and women are completely different. My being married to a woman forces that reality upon me daily. Whether sexually, socially, emotionally, etc, I have to deal with the fact that understanding what I, as a man, prefer is inescapably different than what my wife, being a woman, wants. A gay man is able to avoid having to get outside himself, in order to understand a being completely different from himself, by just avoiding committing to the person utterly unlike himself. Sure, two men will of course be two different individuals, but those differences… Read more »
It’s not that you refuse to go along; it’s that you know so much about it.
Suffice it to say, Krycheck, that if Dougwils.com were 28 Barbary Lane, I’d be Brian Hawkins. You’d be Norman Neal Williams.
Mainstream acceptance of sodomites is primarily based on ignorance of their behaviour and habits.
I’m not sure if that is true everywhere in the U.S. I would be hard pressed to find someone over the age of 16 who couldn’t give an accurate description.
I deal with it by using my standard practice for everybody’s sexuality: unless I am forced to watch it, I try hard not to think about it.
I’m referring to things like number of partners, STD rates, correlation to drug addiction, etc.
The mainstream tries hard not to think about what sodomites actually do. Call it willful ignorance.
Knowing theoretically and letting yourself visualize are two different things. I live among a lot of gay people, and I have found them no worse than straight couples when it comes to public displays of excessive affection. Even at Disneyland at gay day, the most I have seen is hand holding. Unlike the teenagers I see on the bus who act like deranged rabbits.
And you try not to think about, as in ignore the reality of, the things they do when they’re not in public, even though you know theoretically. That way you can pretend they are cool, witty, funny, charming, and colorful, instead of what they would be to you if you had to think about them doing what they do.
Some are witty and charming, some are not. But, John, why would I want to think about what goes on behind anyone’s bedroom door? If it is consensual and private and everyone is over age, it isn’t my business. Catholics have some very strict rules about the kind of sexual antics even married people engage in. I was brought up to regard these as disgusting, even though they are very mainstream now. Should I picture what my next door neighbors might be getting up to, and shake my head in disgust? Should I be worrying that the Catholic couple two… Read more »
Public acceptance of faggotry is extremely harmful to formation of non-deviant male friendship. This alone is sufficient reason to demand that sodomites be shamed and excluded from society.
You’re right. But it won’t happen.
Because for Christians, the first and greatest commandment is to “be nice.”
And it’s not nice to condemn homosexuals, especially when so many of them are nice, too.
I agree that the terror of ever seeming gay can hurt male friendships. But I can’t see it as sufficient reason. Women manage to be affectionate and loving with one another without being frightened of looking gay.
But short of a national religious revival, can you imagine things changing now? I am not sure that this genie is going to go back into the bottle.
I am not sure that this genie is going to go back into the bottle.
It won’t.
Not before the comet hits, anyway.
That’s what it’s going to take to get back to normal.
Unfortunately.
Because ELEs aren’t fun things to go through, even if you’re one of the “lucky” few who survive.
I certainly can imagine things changing, and in the next 20 years they will. Unfortunately it will involve quite a lot of blood being spilled.
I think there are parts of this country where people still feel very strongly. But reputable studies show that kids are increasingly okay with gays. I would hope secession would happen rather than civil war.
“I would hope secession would happen rather than civil war.”
Historically the former has led to the latter.
Male friendship and female friendship have very little in common, so it’s difficult to draw parallels.
Yes, I understand that. But what I have noticed among my daughter’s friends is that friendships have developed between gay and straight young men. This would never have happened when I was young.
Would you say the same about adulterers and people who fornicate promiscuously? Or people living together as a sexually active couple without being married? Lesbians tend not to be promiscuous–hence the joke about bringing a U-haul along on the first date. Do you feel as negatively about them?
Feelings aside, those are not harmful to society in the same ways.
http://www.socialmatter.net/2016/05/17/homosexuals-signalling-hazard-traditional-societies/
Did you have this in mind with your comment?
And I wonder if saying “no homo” (or #nohomo) is a joke in places outside the US?
Like you said, knowing theoretically and letting yourself visualize are two different things, and like I said you know theoretically what homosexuals do and you don’t want to think about the reality of it. You don’t have a problem thinking about the reality of what normal men and women do together, even if you know better than to visualize any particular couple doing it. Yes men and women can perform some perverted acts together, whether the Roman Catholic Church gets it exactly right or not. Yes, maybe you should worry a little if you think the Catholic couple two doors… Read more »
You make some good points, John. But I think you would have to visualize my life circumstances. I live in a multi-ethnic, multi-faith,and gay friendly section of Los Angeles. Very few people I know even go to church. The Catholic church I attend has about 9,000 parishioners in its area, and we do not have deacons or small faith groups. The set up is very casual, and I seldom know the names of the people at any service I attend. If someone confided in me that they were participating in a very sinful act (like encouraging their daughter to get… Read more »
“But the Catholic church is very clear about not confronting other people’s sins until I am reasonably sinless myself.”
That by itself sounds like an “over application” of Matthew 7:3
Understood. Again, you may or may not be in a position to say anything. Whether or not you know the other person to be a professing Christian matters. Naturally, how well you know the person matters. The thing we can’t do is make peace with perverted practices in our attitudes and opinions. I don’t know what “reasonably sinless” is. I know there is no such thing as literally sinless in this life. Going back to your encouraging a daughter’s abortion example, you wouldn’t be obliged to wait till you figured you’d mostly stopped sinning (and of course you could be… Read more »
Just curious, Jilly – you’re Catholic, you accept evolution, and you have no problem with civil gay marriage.
So how in the world did you end up on this site?
I have often wondered. I follow links idly, and one must have led me here. I believed I had never met so wrong-headed a collection of people, yet my attempts to set them all straight were met with patient good humor. And I liked having my assumptions challenged, and I especially liked talking to people who disagreed with me. So I stayed.
Glad you did!
Some are witty and charming, some are not.
From my experience working with them, homos tend to be wittier than the average person. Quite a bit so, in fact.
They are also smarter than average.
They also have a higher than average tendency to be nearsighted. Which is not surprising, as there’s a correlation between nearsightedness and higher IQs.
I think the wittiness is one reason women tend to like them. Nice girls, even very smart ones, are socialized not to be mean and not to be funny. Gays break those rules while talking about stuff that interests women.
But I have not noticed wittiness or charm in most of the lesbians I have met. I wonder why that is.
It’s because women aren’t nearly as witty as men are.
Lesbians may look and act like men, but they’re still women.
Christopher Hitchens discusses this very thing
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I7izJggqCoA
Why do you think that some men resent wittiness in women? I have noticed that the quality is often appreciated in female coworkers, sisters in law, and friends–but seldom in wives. If it is genuine wit and not merely a smart mouth, why do you think so many men don’t like it?
I’m honestly not aware of that phenomenon. However, female comedians – not as funny as men, but probably funnier than most women – tend to be on the unattractive side, to put it kindly. Not every single one. Tina Fey is pretty funny, and she’s certainly attractive. But the vast majority of female comedians don’t rate high in the looks department. That may have something to do with what you’ve described, but as I said, I’ve never witnessed this. Are you sure that what you’re seeing is men disliking that their wife is funny, as opposed to men simply not… Read more »
Do men not like witty wives? I haven’t observed that among my married friends.
That is often, but not universally, true. My daughter had at least half a dozen gay teachers in middle and high school, and they appeared to live like boring old straight couples.
I grant that your experience may have been an exception, but it should be recognised as such.
Do you think a day will come when gay people settle down and lead more normal lives in general? Where gay couples will marry and be faithful to each other?
To your first question — Yes, when public opinion forces that sort of behaviour back into the closet.
To your second — No, because “gay marriage” is not and cannot be “normal life”, it’s a demand for public acceptance of perversion.
Do you see public opinion changing, especially in the large cities?
Public opinion follows that of the people who hold power. Change the elites, change public opinion.
I don’t see how you can know whether it’s an exception or not, since there are no hard numbers and no empirical data. Maybe most gay people are wildly promiscuous; maybe most of them are boring married couples. But what I see here is mostly confirmation bias, with no real numbers to back it up.
A study collecting self-reported numbers of homosexual partners indicated that half of them claimed to have had more than 500 (and 18% claimed more than 1000).
Homosexuals are 10x more likely to be child molesters.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2625
And I think that is horrible. I think all promiscuity is disgusting.
And we know that the people in the study are an accurate statistical sample how? Does it occur to you that the people most willing to answer survey questions about their sex lives are the people who are least likely to have conventional sex lives.
Just spend a minute thinking that one through. How many of the commenters here would be willing to answer detailed survey questions about their sex lives? Not many, I would suspect. So of course the answers are going to be skewed.
The best response to poor data is better data. Put up or shut up.
There may not be better data. This may be a question for which no answer is possible at this time. Spend a few minutes just thinking this one through. The biggest challenge is going to be finding a statistical sample that is an accurate reflection of all gays. (By the way, so far lesbians have been completely ignored in this conversation, which is a problem of its own.) How would you do that? Sexual orientation isn’t obvious like skin color, and no one even knows for sure how many gays there are. How are you going to ensure that the… Read more »
Which is another reason Christian colleges and denominations will soon drop their opposition to gay marriage, and fully embrace it. (Besides the issues of taxes and opprobrium.) Because most gays, in their day to day lives, are quite normal. Back when I was in grad school, Anita Bryant’s Save the Children Crusade was the talk of churches everywhere. A city in Florida, I think Miami, had passed a law saying you can’t fire someone for being gay. Anita led the fight to have it repealed. When she won, she led the fight to have similar ordinances repealed in Eugene, OR,… Read more »
Well, maybe most gay people really are normal people who don’t walk around naked waving their sex toys. Maybe your caricature of what gay people are like is really just confirmation bias. Maybe the gay lifestyle consists mostly of mowing the lawn, paying bills, and saving for retirement, just like everyone else.
That is true, but not every gay person goes to gay pride parades. Most of the gays I know think that gay pride parades need to stop, that they are needlessly inflammatory, and that people who are surgeons and judges in their daily lives should not be carrying on like that. I think the most significant change has been that, as you said, people began to realize that not all gays behave freakishly and that many are their neighbors, teachers, doctors, and relatives. I have a gay close relative, and I am sure that you would find her behavior and… Read more »
My condo complex has gay couples, and they are very good neighbors: quiet, house proud, and discreet. When you ask them to water your plants, you can be sure they won’t trash the place.
Plus, unlike some “communities”, they’re real good about not burning down the city when a cop shoots a carjacker who was trying to grab his gun.
Quite a few gays here ARE cops! LAPD has been recruiting them for years.
That Viliage People deal really caught on!
But gay pride parades have been really toned down since they started getting corporate sponsorships. When the mayor, city councilmen, and even, in Canada, the prime minister started walking in the parades, a lot of the flamboyance disappeared. Before long it will look like the Odd Fellows’ parade!
Maybe somewhat.
But from what I understand, there’s still plenty of full nudity every year at the Pride parade.
And then there’s the Folsom Street Fair, which makes the Pride parade look like a bunch of uptight Puritans.
And we know that those people are representative of all gay people how?
You should really learn to read.
Where did I say or imply that the Pride parade or the Folsom Street Fair are representative of all gay people?
Once again, maybe you missed it, but I said that most gays are quite normal.
IClinton facilitated transfer of arms from Libya to Syria and has since continue to arm Rebels, moderates head choppers , Christian killers Isis Etc.?, but worse is that she called tthe Syrians people bimbos -children in hospitals she bombed them with cursewords like ass fuck suck motherfucker cock sucker cunt bullshit and that’s what really has the Pietists up in arms
#nevertrump: ppl who hate Arabs avoiding Trump because of criticism by mexicans……?