Contents
A Minor Falsehood
There is a group claiming that Doug teaches that a minister/elder must be married. Can you clarify Doug’s position on this? Thank you!Christopher
Christopher, yes, I can clarify. I don’t teach that.
A Voice From the Right Field Bleachers
he’s right, as we are surrounded by Bolsheviks, you knew what they were doing all along and have shielded them. I’m sorry I ever listened to any of your talks, you lied to us this entire time, you protected the enemies of the church and just told the sheep to sit down and shut up as the wolves surrounded us) Replying to @douglaswils
I was undecided on what your deal was until this moment; whether you were being intentionally subversive or simply being deceived. Your continued insistence upon your error, in opposition to reality and the Scripture, has forced me to assume that you are indeed acting subversively.
“What if everything we believe they are doing is true? So what? Love your enemies by letting them take control of your nation while they openly blaspheme Christ and introduce ever form of debauchery known to man. Let them destroy your children and future posterity by remaining silent to their evil (because muh post-war liberal consensus)! Your family doesn’t matter. Your posterity doesn’t matter. Your church doesn’t matter. Your neighbor doesn’t matter. Only your enemy matters and must be “loved!” That’s some rightly ordered affection if I ever saw it!”
This is what I hear you saying. Utterly shameful. Either you don’t know what time it is or you are intentionally carrying water for the rulers of this present darkness who have all the nations of the former Christian West in a violent death grip. The time for a good will entertaining of this sort of tired, absurd shilling of the post-war artifice is long past. If you can’t move beyond that, and begin identifying the true antecedent (antichrist) factors behind the decline of the West, you are no longer relevant. Repent.John
John, your letter is pretty hard to follow, but we can still get the gist. Let me key off “this is what I hear you saying.” Given the fact that it is not what I am saying at all, the problem appears to be that you are blinded by animus, and it has affected your reading comprehension. Who here said to “love your enemies by letting them take control?” Nothing remotely close to that. And “because muh post-war liberal consensus” is just a talking point in certain circles that reduces the need to engage with arguments. If wanting the Constitution to include the Apostles Creed is part of the post-war liberal consensus, then I have been greatly deceived about what is going on. Precisely because my church matters, and my family matters, it is most necessary to keep this sort of rancid attitude out of them.
Speaking Of . . .
I know you’ve had Yoram Hazony on your Man Rampant show and that you’ve interacted with his book on Nationalism in your blogs and on the Plodcast. However, I don’t think I’ve read or heard you interact with his latest book, “Conservatism: A Rediscovery.” I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Hazony last year at a conference and discussing his ideas, and I’ve read his Conservatism book. I found it to be very good, but I’m still processing it to figure out what I agree and disagree with. An alternative title for his book might be “The Jewish Case for Christian Nationalism.” However, another alternative title (for at least some of the chapters) might be “How the Puritans were Just as Bad as the Enlightenment Liberals.” Read it and you may see what I’m getting at.
In any event, this is my formal request for you to read and interact with that book at length. I’d like to see a compare-and-contrast of his Burkean empiricist conservatism with (what I perceive to be) your Scottish Realist conservatism informed by the kind of Puritanism of which Hazony appears to be skeptical. A brief assessment of this book on your Plodcast book review segment would be nice, but a more extensive review on your blog (similar to one you did for Patrick Deneen’s book on Liberalism) would be preferable.
I’ll give you some time to read, digest, and review the Hazony Conservatism book before I make my next request for your in-depth interaction with the new “Virtuous Liberty” book of which Andrew Sandlin is the editor. Just a heads up that this request is forthcoming. Maybe you can get ahead of me.
In Christ,Joe
Joe, I am halfway through Hazony’s Conservatism Rediscovered, and so far have appreciated it very much. And I just got Virtuous Liberty in the mail yesterday. And just for the record, I consider myself a Christian classical liberal. But without Christ, the classical liberal order is just smoke in a gale. A joke. A shadow of its former self, incapable of defending itself against the most manifest absurdities.
Heads Up
The Cultish Podcast recently went through an informative series on Hinduism. In one of those episodes, this was brought up. For a while it seemed like sending a child to a government school was kind of a gamble. Well, there’s no gamble about it. In NY, they say, “Send us your kids, and they’ll be pagan first thing in the morning . . . every morning.” The “un” in unavoidable is not a strong enough prefix.
Peace,Charles
Charles, exactly so.
More on Concupiscence
In reply to your mail:
“Peter, yes. The fact that all sins are equally sin does not mean that they are all equally sinful. Homosexual corruption really is a deeper form of sin. But the debate [with Jared Moore] we had concerned whether or not there is any distance between these sinful corruptions (which only justification can deal with) and ‘a sin,’ which needs to be repented and confessed.”
I get that there’s a hierarchy to sin (Jesus talks of the camel and gnat). I also understood the following from the debate: the main point was about distinguishing between inherent sinfulness (original sin) from the act of committing a sin (or sowing to the flesh), and that it is important to distinguish between the two in order to avoid being dragged into a prison of despair; and the moment at which sinfulness becomes a sin is when we indulge, or give consent to the desires of our flesh; and that moment of decision should approximately be no longer than one second; any more than that would tend toward committing a sin.
Now desire can be either lawful or unlawful (context matters also; you gave the analogy of a man desiring a married woman versus him desiring her after she became a widow). God’s law determines which is which. Unlawful desire can further be divided into natural and unnatural. Again, God’s law determines which is which.
But what I was trying to ask with my previous question (isn’t the “unfit mind” evidence of a deeper level of depravity), which I framed incorrectly, was isn’t unnatural desire evidence of unbelief? How can a person have unnatural desires which spring from an unfit mind which is evidence of God’s wrath, be regenerate? I’m saying he can’t. If you have homosexual desires, you’re not born again.
Am I thinking through this correctly?Peter
Peter, in the first part of this letter, you are catching the distinctions I am trying to make exactly. But in this last paragraph, the question is pastorally untenable. I have known men who live for Christ, and who would die for Him, and they live decent, respectable lives. But when they are tempted sexually, they are tempted in a same sex direction. They are diligent to mortify the sin, resisting the temptation. If my pastoral duty were to inform them that they must not be a Christian because of this resisted temptation, I shouldn’t be surprised if at some point the temptation shifted to that of wanting to eat a pistol.
Sure
Not really apropos of anything . . . certainly our military industrial complex should be trimmed back quite a bit, but even if it was a more appropriate size, I think there would be a significant number of positions that I think women could still serve in quite biblically. Obviously they shouldn’t be on the battlefield, but it’s also quite hard to find a hard line in this day and age of what/where the battlefield actually is. What’s the way to actually figure out where the line is for women in the military?Ian
Ian, it is not possible to keep women and children out of danger in a war. In biblical times, in a besieged city, the women would be active in the war effort. I don’t see any reason why women could not serve as members of the military, but with all the traditional understanding intact. A field hospital that had women in the nursing staff violates no biblical standard that I know of. Putting women in combat roles does, and is delusional on top of everything else.
Responsibility
I am writing w/appreciative regards for your video post awhile back “you are the man & you are responsible.” I have 2 sons, older of 14 yrs, that my wife & I are raising by God’s grace. A recent local happening clearly illustrated the failure of some local fellow gen X parents to order their lives by biblical accountability, and in conversing about it with our boys, that post came to my mind. I shared it with my older son this evening, and wanted to thank you for the treasure of biblical wisdom that so many of your posts contain. Keep boldly & graciously leading the gospel fight in your sector, general—there are junior officers in other sectors learning great battle strategies & conduct from you. Soli deo Gloria.Mitchell
Mitchell, thanks, and God bless.
Okay But . . .
I was wondering what your take on Progressive Covenantalism is. I find it attractive as it seems like a very straight forward way of understanding how the covenants connect in Scripture. I know you don’t agree with PC, but do you have any thoughts? Any cautions? Anything you admire about the system?SBS
SBS, I don’t really know enough about it to comment. What I do know, I like. Anything that causes evangelicals to focus on the importance of covenants in Scripture is, I think, a healthy development. But those who are engaged in this should be forewarned. There are slippery slopes in covenant theology like there are in other places, and at the bottom of this one folks are baptizing babies.
Scapegoating or Envy?
Regarding all the anti-Jewish sentiment: when a complaint against the Jews could be boiled down to “damn those Klever, Konniving Kikes for all their Klever, Konniving Kike-iness”—I agree, that’s envy. However, I suggest that much of the seething, frothing hate you’re seeing is not envy but scapegoating.
Self-pitying blacks scapegoat whites all the time, but it’s not Whitey’s fault that Deondre is a felon with three baby mamas and can’t read or string together three intelligible sentences.
Similarly, it’s not Moishe’s fault that white, presumably Christian sons and daughters are easy pickings—as both consumers and hirelings—for Jewish and Gentile pornographers.
With both Deondre and our sons and daughters, most of the blame is properly laid close to home.Daniel
Daniel, I take your point and agree with it. Where we differ is probably in the fact that I would assign envy a fairly large role in scapegoating.
An Interesting Question
Subject: Prenuptual Agreements
Dear Doug, I am shortly to remarry having been abandoned by my former wife (who subsequently divorced me). UK law now makes provision for no-fault divorce. I have learnt at considerable cost to myself and my children that contrary to scriptural principles (and historical precedent) an unfaithful spouse can carry away children, estate, all. The state now handsomely rewards infidelity. Once, an unfaithful spouse would have been heavily penalised.
I once viewed prenuptual legal contracts as something to protect the rich against gold-diggers. I’m increasingly considering whether they have a role in buttressing marriage vows and protecting against secular court decisions. Marriage vows are given no weight in the family court. Those fortunate enough to be living in communities of believers in which there is meaningful church discipline and in which family displeasure has clout have those additional protections: an unfaithful and unrepentant spouse will have to count the cost of some heavy censures. I don’t have such protections. So, having finally weathered the last storm, should I seek to undergird the ship by adding contract to covenant—something the secular court might recognise should the need ever arise?Daniel
Daniel, in some cases it could be lawful to reinforce the marriage vows by means of a pre-nup. But I would want to ensure that the agreement only protected what marriage vows in a healthy society protected, and that any pre-nup you came upwith protected your bride-to-be as much as it protected you.
Time and Before Time
Re. From Absolutely Nothing
That’s a lovely meditation on creation but notice that it doesn’t start quite from nothing. It starts “before . . .” It starts in time in other words. Time seems to exist already, so to speak. Which is natural because it’s impossible to conceive of God’s being apart from time though we know logically that he is. Note the spatial metaphor in that “apart from time.” We can’t even think about our inability to think about it without assuming time and space. What we can say is that God creates everything that is not himself from nothing. Just as there is no morality above God there is also no other context or environment that contains him (spatial metaphors again) because there is nothing but God and stuff he makes. He fills time and space without being contained by them. He is his own context. He is absolute and fundamental.
It would be closer to the truth to say that God creates all history at once or that this is moment of creation than to go with our natural assumption that he inhabits time and space like a native, as if they were more fundamental than him. Even these formulations assume time with their “at once” and “this is the moment”. God truly is incomprehensible. We know him truly but as through a glass darkly. Our knowledge is fragmentary and distorted. Thank God he actually lives inside us knowing and loving himself perfectly.
Blessings!Rob
Rob, you are quite right. But I make free to talk this way anyway because Scripture does. “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began” (Titus 1:2). “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (1 Peter 1:20). And the really fun one, the mind bender is: “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began” (2 Timothy 1:9, NKJV).
A Simple Question
Why do you prefer the Apostles’ Creed instead of the Nicene Creed for the sake of catholicity in documents like the Constitution? Isn’t the Nicene Creed the more catholic and ecumenical, since it was established by ecumenical councils?John
John, I prefer the Apostles because it is shorter, more direct, and would fit more neatly as a constitutional amendment. And it contains the essential thing. I want us, through our elected representatives, to confess that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead.
A Baptismal Cooperation Challenge
I recently planted a church a little over a year ago, and things have been going quite well (difficult, to be sure, but enjoyable). One of the things that has stood out to me lately is re-discovering what most/all of the CREC camp (and others) teach with requiring baptism before partaking of the Lord’s Supper. We, like Christ Church, allow for both Protestant views of baptism: paedo- and credo-. This, in relation to communion, brought up a couple important questions that I am not sure how to answer and am processing through. The first is whether credobaptist brothers who were baptized as infants (we have a former Presby and a former UMC brother) should be re-baptized as adults (which goes against what us paedobaptists hold), or if they should acknowledge their baptism as infants as a legitimate baptism (which goes against their credobaptist conviction). Obviously if we held strictly to one view or the other, we wouldn’t have this problem; however, this has raised an interesting point that I hadn’t fully fleshed out yet.
Wisdom and advice is greatly appreciated. Hope that the scenario was painted well.Matthew
Matthew, this is a natural challenge if paedos and credos are working together. A baptist elder in a church like this should not be asked to perform an infant baptism himself, but he should be good with his brothers doing it. I have a baptist friend who would hold the font while a paedo brother performed the baptism. And if someone I baptized in infancy later came to baptistic convictions, I could not in good conscience administer the baptism, but I could in good conscience find someone who could do it. In such circumstances, we defer to the conscience of the one being baptized.
Civil War
I watched your response video to the Stephen Colbert civil war clip and it has me intrigued and wanting to find out more about what the Civil War was really about. I had believed it was about slavery and encountered many people on the right who shared the same view so I never questioned it. What are some books you’d recommend to learn more about this? I did some searches on your book reviews and came across ‘The Real Lincoln’ by Thomas J. Dilorenzo that I intend on picking up soon, but any other recommendations would be much appreciated. And thanks for making that video by the way.Tony
Tony, that book is a good place to start. You could also stick your toe in the water with this.
Don’t Want to be Anti-Semantic
I am a mom of high school and middle school aged children. I was wondering if you could recommend a book or resources about “semantics” and how language influences the way we see the world? We enjoyed your book “The Amazing Dr. Ransom’s Bestiary of Adorable Fallacies”, so I thought you might have some suggestions for this area! Thanks for your time!Molly
Molly, for kids that age I think a good place to start would be with a book on translation. I think a good place to start would be Is That a Fish in Your Ear?
25 Books
I recently saw/heard you say somewhere that if someone wanted to be well-read they should start with what you called the “25 canonical books” of history, of which you only mentioned two; the Institutes by Calvin and Augustine’s Confessions.
Would you be willing to write out the full list of 25 books?
Thank you!
In Christ,Isaac
Isaac, this is the list that I included in The Case for Classical Christian Education. Depending on how you count, there are 25, not counting the Scriptures.
The Scriptures
The Iliad
The Odyssey
The Oresteia
History of the Persian Wars
Oedipus Rex
The Republic
Nichomachean Ethics
The Aeneid
On the Incarnation
The Confessions of St. Augustine
Beowulf
The Divine Comedy
The Canterbury Tales
Hamlet, Macbeth, Henry V, Much Ado About Nothing, Midsummer Night’s Dream
Institutes of the Christian Religion
Vindicae Contra Tyrannos
The Temple
Paradise Lost
Pilgrim’s Progress
Pensees
Pride and Prejudice
Faust
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
The Brothers Karamazov
The Lord of the Rings
The Scriptures
The Iliad
The Odyssey
The Oresteia
History of the Persian Wars
Oedipus Rex
The Republic
Nichomachean Ethics
The Aeneid
On the Incarnation
The Confessions of St. Augustine
Beowulf
The Divine Comedy
The Canterbury Tales
Hamlet, Macbeth, Henry V, Much Ado About Nothing, Midsummer Night’s Dream
Institutes of the Christian Religion
Vindicae Contra Tyrannos
The Temple
Paradise Lost
Pilgrim’s Progress
Pensees
Pride and Prejudice
Faust
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
The Brothers Karamazov
The Lord of the Rings
A Theonomy Question
I’m coaching Christian high school debate, and I’d like to teach my students about theonomy. I’d like to assign them a not-too-long book to read about theonomy, to help them understand the topic, and also to provide them with effective quotes from Christians that they can use to back up their arguments in the round. Can you recommend one? For example, when we debated journalistic objectivity, I had them read Olasky’s Central Ideas in the Development of American Journalism: A Narrative History.Robyn
Robyn, I think the best book for them to read would be By This Standard by Greg Bahnsen.
Another Country Heard From
On Dopamine Politics:
I agree it’s a good phrase. I also concur with your balance beam analysis, though it seems more like a tight rope at times, on a bicycle, with a stiff wind blowing across the chasm and a squirrel running up my leg. How the squirrel got there I’ll never know. It probably wonders the same thing. The Christian life has always been a matter of balance. Drink wine but don’t be a drunkard. Feast but don’t be gluttonous. Fast but don’t advertise your Lenten abstinence. Pray in public worship but not to the acclaim of men. Preach but not for ratings. Hate what is evil but love the evildoer. Obey the law but not when it contradicts God. Use a hammer to pound nails, not screws. Or skulls.
In all these things, there is a good and rightful use, and in all these things there is a point in which it becomes abuse. Rejoice but don’t gloat. Cheer when your team wins, not because the other team loses. Eat whatever you want but not what causes your brother to stumble. Work to provide for the family but not to replace them. Print copious volumes of books to evangelize and instruct the brethren but not to enrich your coffers. Be a Jonathan Edwards and not a Joel Osteen.
I could go on, but I guess the best way to summarize is this . . .
You can put your mug on your blog, and sell your mug on your blog, but you can’t sell your mug on your mug on your blog.Andy
Andy, yes. And don’t try to mug your way through.
The Stakes Really Are High
I have been married thirteen years to a hard-working and faithful man who provides for us well. We have four kids. My husband is not a man for whom gentleness and patience come easily. He can at times speak harshly and with irritability to the kids and I. A low-degree impatience with things like small delays or inconveniences is usually the norm. I’ve gotten fairly thick-skinned about this sort of thing, but my children—especially the older ones—struggle with hurt and frustration about it.
He’s been most prone to impatience and criticism with our older son (7). The latest development is our boys starting competitive wrestling, a sport my husband loved as a kid and was very competitive in. Our older son is talented and hard-working and has had a great deal of success, but if anything this seems to have increased the criticism level from my husband, who coaches the boys at home and at tournaments. Now even the narrowest defeats (he’s only lost three matches out of twenty-one this season) result in the kid being hauled into an alcove by the arm and berated roundly for “giving up” or “not listening” or “not using your head”. This inevitably results in an emotional kid, which results in more berating for “crying and being a p*ssy*.
I’m not trying to cast my husband in a poor light, but our son is discouraged, I am discouraged, and I don’t know how to handle the situation which is downstream fruit of a lot of similar upstream situations through the years. They’re finally coming to a head, because now our son has started to ask me why his dad behaves this way, and told me how angry it makes him and how he loves wrestling but hates tournaments because he’s so nervous he’s going to lose and get treated this way by his dad.
My husband is not very receptive to hearing my concerns about this—comments about the dangers of “mama’s boys” abound. I don’t want to undermine his efforts in raising tough, tenacious sons and have worked to back up my husband’s standards for the boys. They’re not tender or wilting, they play hard and wrestle hard and bounce back from inevitable crashes and pile-ups, they are pellet guns and skinned rabbits and forts and swords and cap guns sorts of boys. My husband is doing a good job in giving them those sorts of tools needed to become men.
On the other hand, we have a kid who’s a nervous wreck, who slinks and sidles and mumbles around his dad and avoids being in the same room with him (resulting in even more irritation—“why does he act so sad all the time?!). My attempts at suggesting more affection, more one-on-one time, more patience, more encouragement, are usually met with derision and some variation of “He doesn’t need that, he needs me to be even harder on him.”
In general I feel very stuck, very troubled, and very unsure what to do. I know I am supposed to do what is good and not be afraid of anything that is frightening, but I admit I am not sure what is good in this situation, and I also admit to being frightened. The stakes feel very high to me.
Is it ever appropriate to explain to a young child that a parent is behaving sinfully, that it shouldn’t happen and isn’t the kid’s fault, but that we are going to forgive and respect that parent regardless? Would I be causing more damage to my husband’s authority and our son’s regard for him by attempting this sort of thing?
Any wisdom you might be able to offer would be a tremendous blessing, thank you.J
J, you are right the stakes are high. The problem is not that he is raising tough, tenacious boys, the problem is that he isn’t. At some point, responsibility for the loss goes to the coach, not the player. You need to be praying for an opportunity to suggest pastoral counsel, and to have it be at a time when the suggestion seems reasonable to your husband. And yes, there is a time when you would need to explain to a son how to process and handle the harshness of his father. But that should only happen after you have spoken directly to your husband about all of this. Don’t counter-coach your sons behind their father’s back.
A Tough One
I’ve read your views on separation/divorce in your letter On a Woman Deciding to Leave Her Husband where the marriage lacks the necessary 2 or 3 witnesses (or digital or written evidence) to establish ongoing oppression as fact. I even sent this article to both husband and wife, friends of ours for about 15 years who are going through a divorce after 41 years. The wife has proceeded to file for divorce and has already sought a contempt of court over something quite trivial (it was denied). The husband has shown and expressed willingness to do what it takes to save the marriage, even years of counseling. He has admitted two serious sins from 39 and 25 years ago. He had already confessed those before the separation and thought he had been forgiven. They attend different independent churches with very similar, even identical theology. The churches share resources for developing Biblical counselors. The estranged wife is a biblical counselor at one of the churches and has a Masters from Westminster in Biblical Counseling. My husband and I know that only God knows what really went on in that marriage and that time may tell more, but maybe not. The husband has maintained friendship with us but the wife hasn’t. She said I offended her but won’t say how. I’m basically taking what refuge I can in 1Cor 7:10,11 and in the principles of your article. These verses obviously don’t give any permission for excommunication, and they are silent on whether such a woman could function in ministry. The estranged wife (now my estranged friend) is still active in the counseling ministry of a church I don’t attend but share counseling resources with. I know the pastor of that church believes that the man is an abuser. But he hasn’t been presented with any more evidence that we know of than we and their adult sons (39-42 years old) have been. I do believe that my friend would be very quick to find abuse in most women’s stories (she has consumed books and teaching about trauma was a childhood victim of abuse). I don’t plan to recommend her as a counselor to anyone. But I plan on biting my tongue when I hear others do. If someone asks me my thoughts point blank for good reason, I will share briefly what I know and don’t know. Does this sound like my only and/or best option? Her pastor knows quite well that my husband and I believe there was serious pastoral abuse of the counseling process in the church where they previously attended and where the sh- – hit the fan. But the current pastor “believes” the one elder from the previous church even though the plurality of elders there did not find grounds for church discipline for the husband. (And they do practice church discipline). I have tried to arrange a conversation with the wife about my offenses against her but she hasn’t responded.
This situation could create a lot more damage in the churches she and we attend. Besides prayer and telling what we think our pastors and theirs need to know I don’t think we can do much more. Do you have any other recommendations for me and my husband or books to read on subjects related? Thanks.Anne
Anne, you are correct. From what you have described, I don’t think there is much more you can do. The only thing I can think of would be to start circulating antibodies in your Christian community, and recommending books like Bad Therapy by Abigail Shrier.
Besetting Sin
Doug, what’s the difference between being enslaved to sin as an unbeliever, and a believer who struggles with a besetting sin?CB
CB, as part of our lived experience, it can seem very similar. But ultimately it is the difference between can’t and won’t.
Platforming Women?
I appreciated your article from March 4 where you described how the Overton Window has shifted, and you laid out some of the ways we should (or should not) police our own ranks. While watching the Allie Beth Stuckey/Founders kerfuffle unfold online, I found myself agreeing with your tweet thread that a cease-fire needs to be issued here. I see a lot of arrogance, self-righteousness, or a desire to ‘own’ people with tweets and posts, but it doesn’t seem like it’s changing hearts and minds. This seems like a brawl in the landing craft type of situation.
Anyway, my question is not so much about the wisdom of a Twitter war, but rather the wisdom of Founders platforming Allie at their conference. My observation of Grace Agenda has been that the women only present to women, not to mixed audiences. Your approach fits within my understanding of 1 Tim. and Titus 2, but I wondered if you have written on this in more detail. Is it always/sometimes/never wrong? It seems like a lot of the angst comes from applying these texts to our modern world where any woman can have a blog, twitter account, podcast, etc., which doesn’t mutually exclude them from being a homemaker or otherwise fulfilling her God-given role as wife and mother. And as a final note, I wanted to share this article from Christ Over All—I found myself pretty much in sync with Jonathan’s thinking as he argues from what is licit/illicit to wise/unwise. Curious for your thoughts, or maybe a future (or past) article that digs into this topic.Tim
Tim, you are right. We have thought through all of that regarding our ministries here, but we are happy to fellowship with folks who have drawn the line in a (slightly) different place. Feminism is the enemy, but Rosaria writing a fine book for women that a man can read with profit is not feminism.
Three Objections to CN
I have 3 primary issues with CN at this point, but am open to correction on any of them and I am hoping to get your perspective.
1) It seems to be a wax nose at this point in that there is no (other than rights are given by God, lol) consensus on what it actually is.
2) Based on CN as presented in the statement on CN, it seems as though the Constitution would be done away with, as they call for a federal formal adoption of Christianity, while trying to say that it would not pick a specific type. I think our founding fathers had the opportunity to do just that and chose not to. I am not so in love with the Constitution that I am never willing to see it go away, but I am not sure we are there yet.
3) Based on the statement on CN and the way they define a nation, I am not convinced the USA is in fact a nation. I’m not sure we meet the criteria for a shared culture and values, if we ever did.
Based on these 3 objections, I typically do not consider myself to be in the CN camp (other than the aforementioned rights come from God label) and appreciate your perspective.
God Bless!Matt
Matt, what CN actually means is a work in process. The fact that the definition is not settled yet does not mean that it won’t be settled soon. That is part of what the uproar is all about. I believe that CN is consistent with our Constitution, and CN would only make explicit what was implicit for the Founders. And I do believe that America has been a nation, but that is eroding quickly. It is part of the reason for the fighting.
A Meme Is Worth . . . What?
This question is not addressed to any post in particular. This is instead a general question. Pastor Doug, do you think pastors should use internet memes when calling out the culture on social media? I understand that a picture is worth a thousand words, but memes tend to be quite silly. Personally, I believe there is a time and a place for them. But my fear is that when Christians use memes irresponsibly, sometimes it seems to be immature.
Thanks,Brandon
Brandon, the bell curve applies to memes as well as everything else. Half of all memes are below average, and I agree that ministers shouldn’t be circulating silly stuff. But when memes are done right . . . they are powerful.
Marooned in Germany
Why everything is political now—Doug & friends or “Rallying in Sodom?” Dear Mr. Wilson, first our family wants to thank you for your faithful ministry that you are doing and brethren all over the world—like us here in Germany—are benefiting from it, by God’s grace.
We’ve been following your publications on and off for about 15 years, because our former pastor in our English-speaking church here in Munich used to quote you orally or in reprinting your works in pamphlets quite often.
About one and a half years ago we’ve subscribed to Canon+ after hearing about the service through Dr. James White’s Alpha and Omega ministries, which the Lord has used to get me through my theological studies here at the ultra-liberal university of Munich, LMU, where I graduated to become a teacher for English and Protestant Theology. The content of Canon+ has challenged and encouraged us vastly, but sadly the pastor of our new German-speaking church that we helped plant, was not amused about our preferences and actually disqualified me from being an elder, because he knew I listened to you and even recommended your book “How to Exasperate your Wife” to any Christian husband. So my wife, my three daughters and I have gone back to our old English-speaking church, that has a new pastor, who is getting to know us and vice versa.
This is just a little bit of background to understand the basis for my question about an aspect of your show, because in it you seemed to rally for Christians from all over America to get together and build solid Christian communities, which would be able to support themselves in case of “the Zeros flying overhead”.
Now my question is, what about people like us? Our church is so scattered and non-denominational—even though the elders would be mostly Reformed and Baptist—that I do not think it is even an option to get enough families interested in an idea like that.
So should we just stay here and wait until in the next black swan event the government is taking all of our freedoms away, because most of our German citizens are fully convinced that they’ve received these rights from father state in the first place—even though the introduction to our Grundgesetz (constitution) says differently.
Or should we put all of our livelihood at risk and move over to Moscow, Idaho to join y’all? On the one hand that wouldn’t be an issue since all of our family constantly speaks English and is steeped in a general American atmosphere, listening to podcasts like The Dividing Line, The Briefing, The Ramsey Show, and consuming shows on Answers TV, Daily Wire and of course Canon +. (I remember the day our youngest found out that we’re actually not American, nor live in the United States of America, after the girls started to learn the Star-Spangled Banner . . . )
On the other hand, how would I as a German state official—which most German teachers are—provide for my family, since it seems to me that I’ve never learned any useful skill, apart from my theological education both at university and in self-studies helped by my church, preparing for leading small group, Ligonier Connect, and of course reading books.
On top of that we’re amillennial Reformed Baptist (with sympathies towards postmillennialism) who are afraid that we would not really fit into Moscow’s community, even though my wife has listened and read nearly to all of the women’s material on Canon+.
Anyway, what would you suggest to a family like us?
Keep up the good fight knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
SDGThomas
Thomas, the only thing that I might suggest is that you and your wife start praying regularly together about where the Lord would have you be. If He wants you there, ask Him to make a way. If He wants you here, ask Him to make a way. Lean into the request, asking God’s guidance, while also remembering that He doesn’t steer parked cars.
“2) Based on CN as presented in the statement on CN, it seems as though the Constitution would be done away with, as they call for a federal formal adoption of Christianity,” If making an amendment is doing away with the constitution, the constitution has already been done away with so many times it is no longer relevant. If you mean “This portion of Christian Nationalism would contradict one amendment of the Constitution if left not amended” well then yes. It would. But of course, this was also true at one time for selling Bourbon. I think the relevant question… Read more »
We’ve had far worse amendments that turned the Constitution and founders’ intentions upside down, that’s for sure. See Madison’s views on taxes and look at 16A, for example.
Another option is at the state level. Remember the first word of 1A and then read 10A. It’s as simple as that.
I would have no problem with that, but you probably would have an easier time convincing the nation to repent and turn to Christianity than you would convincing them that the first amendment doesn’t apply to states, despite the overwhelming historical and grammatical evidence.
Just a thought for you and Justin. What does your state constitution say about the US Constitution?
The Idaho Constitution Article I, Section 3 says: STATE INSEPARABLE PART OF UNION. The state of Idaho is an inseparable part of the American Union, and the Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land.
So the definition of CN will be settled soon, and in the meantime America constituting a nation is a condition that is eroding quickly. Is there a connection between that definition and that erosion? Are self identified CN’s rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation? I get the sense they are.
What profit is there in spending your time imagining what hypothetical people are feeling as they speculate on a a future purely theoretical event?
You’re more than halfway down the path of posting to fanfiction.net
If only people who identify as CN were merely hypothetical. But it’s not just speculation when they talk and you listen. If Doug Wilson’s postulated future event is merely theoretical that would come as a relief, but I fear he may be on to something.
Any given individual whose position or behavior you don’t know is in fact hypothetical. You are hypothesizing about how people you don’t know (and in most cases, whose existence as individuals you can’t even identify) react, given their position in one area.
What people say is not enough, I have to know people personally to know their position on a subject or their attitude? None of the people posting on CN are real? Could be I guess, but I doubt it.
Hypothetical does not mean that no such person exists in the whole of creation. It means you’re referring to no one in particular and are using an imaginary example. Take Jonathan. Jonathan works in an office in Georgia. He likes IPAs, and listens to the Joe Rogan Experience podcast. Jonathan was entirely made up, by me, just now. Its also probably true that there’s a beer drinking office worker in Georgia who listens to podcasts. Despite this, Jonathan is hypothetical. Inventing new attributes for Jonathan tells me nothing real about any particular actual human. Getting upset at Jonathan’s actions serves… Read more »
First, just to be clear on what we’re talking about, remember it was not just “America is eroding” but America is eroding as a nation. Hypothetical even in particular sense to which you confine it here, which is not the only sense of the word, does not mean imaginary. Many of the people who have posted in support of CN on this blog give me that impression. I could add “to one degree or another”. That it would take a lot of digging back through past threads that I’m not going to do to come up with all the names… Read more »
“ remember it was not just “America is eroding” but America is eroding as a nation.” America is a nation. This is a meaningless statement. The only manner in which America is capable of eroding is as a nation, because that’s what it is. “doesn’t it is a mental construct with no material supplied from outside my head.” You are communicating with other human beings who are not privy to your memories. We have no means of evaluating any truth claim that you do not clearly communicate. Why would anyone be at all concerned of a vague sense about how some… Read more »
America is eroding in many ways, and may well as a nation(al) entity. I assumed that last is what Doug meant, but he can correct me if I was mistaken. Why would you be concerned about my sense or feeling indeed? I’m not asking you to be, and I’m not interested in validation. I’m not in your dock, but you made an unwarranted assumption regarding the source of my impression. If Doug foresees the not to distant future diminishment or dissolution or reconstruction of the United States as we know it and isn’t a little bit happy about it, he… Read more »
Leftists in comments sections give the impression they would like a “diminished” United States and/or a “reconstructed” (in their image) United States.
Yes, they do. But leftists never sound happy about anything.
So true.
“Why would you be concerned about my sense or feeling indeed? I’m not asking you to be, and I’m not interested in validation.” You’re the one trying to communicate an idea to others. Why? I don’t care, because you haven’t given me or indeed anyone on planet earth a reason to care. I’m doing the neighborly thing by politely taking you through the steps of how to communicate an idea so that you can make a substantive point with which other humans can interact. Thus far, you have spoken exclusively in nearly meaningless terms. In hundreds of articles and what… Read more »
Yes, you do actually have to know people to impute things like rubbing their hands gleefully at the fall of the civilization to them.
The point isn’t that none of them are real, it’s that you’re assuming a moral failing about *all* of them based on the theological writings of *some* of them.
We disagree on what you have to know to know how people think. I figure what they say is a pretty good indication. Now I appreciate that you appear to allow that what I said could apply to at least some CN’s. You don’t want to read into it an “all” and “always” that I did not include. I made a concise generalized statement that, as such, could point to something true even without having absolute and universal application. What I said could be inaccurate, but not owing to lack of qualification. Upon further review, I may have been a… Read more »
The problem is that your “knowing how people think” is totally an assumption in this case. How do you know that the particular group you’re referring to, thinks in the particular morally repugnant way you’re describing? Are there possibly some Christian Nationalists who think the way you impute to them? No doubt. There are some of anything you can imagine in any group. But you’d have to do a lot more work than you’ve done to persuade me that there there is enough of a connection between Christian Nationalism and hating your neighbors enough to be really happy about the… Read more »
We were talking about America eroding and Christian Nationalism, I didn’t say anything about hating neighbors and everything burning; not my words. Whose words do you have in mind? If you think it’s what I think, how do you have any idea how I think?
It looks as if you have settled on a definition of Christian Nationalism already. Inform Doug please. I don’t think it’s a very good definition though because there’s no reason to label that “Christian Nationalism”.
And Christians are fearing hypothetical Christian nationalist (who aren’t proposing anything violent and aren’t even close to achieving their goals at this point). Clown world.
Who said anything about fear?
You did.
“f Doug Wilson’s postulated future event is merely theoretical that would come as a relief, but I fear he may be on to something.”
But not really because of Christian Nationalism. That might be a factor but it wouldn’t be the major one. Not unless you define CN so broadly and vaguely the term is meaningless.
It seems that the Constitution has run its course. I still hold on to a hope that America may survive with a new constitution, or a much-altered version of the current one, and retain most of its territory. But as far as America surviving with the ideals of freedom of speech and religion, and democracy, and especially equality, that is impossible, unless by surviving one means limping along and slowly sinking, as has been the case since Obama was elected. America was founded by European Christians in the beginning, the constitution was written by mostly Christians, with a few vague… Read more »
One thing to remember about our Constitution is that when it was drafted and when it was ratified it wasn’t the Constitution anybody wanted, it was just the Constitution everybody agreed they could live with if they couldn’t have things the way they wanted. That explains in part the big trouble we had a little over seventy years after ratification. When the smoke cleared from that trouble the big result was a more or less national consensus on what the United States is, and how the Republic was going to work under our Constitution. I don’t disagree with you on… Read more »
It’s worth noting that the founders hated the modern idea of democracy–and what modern politicians call “democracy” is more a fascist/socialist surveillance state anyway (check out the work of Mike Benz). And their definition of equality was very different as well. These and other American ideals came out of the post-WW 2 consensus, not the 18th Century. Things like the Civil Rights Act and Burger Court sadly redefined and destroyed some of the original ideals.
Agreed on the last sentence. It is true that the Founders, or at least the moderate ones who did the constitution, despised democracy as is promoted today. But the seeds for what is going on were already in American soil from the beginning, as is, perhaps, the case in most empires. There were firebrands like Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry and Thomas Paine, not to mention Crispus Attucks and his gang at the so-called Boston Massacre. Perhaps the country could have taken a different course, but veneration of the Boston Tea Party and Crispus Attucks and Patrick Henry led to… Read more »
If you follow comments on here, you’ll know there are some leftists (who probably call themselves centrists or center-left thanks to the Overton Window) who think we’re just doing fine with our dEmOcRaZy! They think we still have what the founders wanted, with a bit of progressivism and diversity added thanks to our “living, breathing (and actually inverting)” Constitution. And while we still have the 3 branches of gov’t and checks/balances on paper, the reality is very different. The Shaman from J6 gives a surprisingly good summary of the Deep State here in a relatively short clip. They’ve made an… Read more »
Wilson’s stream of consciousness writing style leads to him making a lot of indefensible statements. This is the fan boy coping mechanism, running from an argument through a series of regressions. An infantile conception of debate club tactics belying a lack of confidence in the position in question.
1000%
America increasingly falls outside of the category of a nation both in the classic sense of a homogeneous ethno-cultural group and in the more modern sense. The open border in itself would indicate that we’re dealing with something else at this point. On a global stage America represents a military empire lead by an ill defined oligarchy and with goals at odds with my preferences and the well-being of myself and my progeny. I would certainly like to see it “diminished”. But then I wouldn’t call myself a Christian Nationalist.
I rather agree with you regarding the open border and the military empire. I’m not too interested in classic homogeneous ethno-cultural sense of a nation. I don’t think it ever really applied to or made sense for an invented country.
I’m just reminding everyone, there is another worldview in play here regarding the erosion that is happening, which I happen to subscribe to. And that is the view that all societies, including ours, will continue to erode until the coming of Christ. There will be no CN in our futures. That is the hypothetical that all the CN folks are wishing for. I hope they don’t become too discouraged while waiting for it and fall away from the faith.
That’s not very Post-Mil. Are you some kind of defeatist?
There’s every indication that you’re right but harsh truths are hard to sell.
Why is it so harsh? I really don’t see it as such. Christ coming back to deliver us and run the cosmos? The Lion of Judah taking charge? I am so looking forward to it Putting everything back in its place.
That’s a good reminder, and I believe you are right with regard to CN. In the meantime, as long as God leaves me in this world, I view my country somewhat like I view my house. I know my house won’t last forever, but I hope it lasts at least until I and my heirs are gone and no longer need it, and so I want to do what I can to ensure it doesn’t fall down sooner rather than later. Of course, there is far less I can do for the country.
Hear ye, hear ye! Of course! Occupy until He returns!
> “There are slippery slopes in covenant theology like there are in other places, and at the bottom of this one folks are baptizing babies.”
From this Reformed Baptist’s perspective that depends very much on whether we pay proper attention to “good and necessary consequence” or whether we allow it to degrade into “hmmm, sounds plausible enough, and hey, I like that tribe and their cool cigars”….. :-)
Daniel, I understand that Muslims use prenups in the US as a legal means to enforce Sharia law in divorce proceedings.
Thomas, are there any Christian Schools 🏫 in Germany or the country’s night right next to it thay you might be able to get employment at?
re: Time and Before Time
אֵ֥ת
‘In the beginning God created “aleph-tou” the heavens and the earth.’ or in Greek “alpha-omega,” He created the “beginning and end” at the beginning.
“for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’” –Isa 45:9-10
Poor J! And poor 7-yr-old son. Her letter was really hard to read. Doug’s response is good, but raises 1 question: How much does J need to talk to this psycho before giving counsel to her kids? It sounds as if she has spoken to him a lot already, and it has made him worse. At what point would she NOT be “counter-counseling the kids behind his back,” since he is never going to bend? When is it time to flee? Is this an Abigail situation?
It ceases to be behind his back after she has raised the issue to him specifically. Not just in the moment, “Don’t be so hard on them,” but a real sit down with “this needs to change or we’re going to need to seek outside help or counsel.”
fair
J is more than likely being quite charitable to Mr. J. This behavior is not isolated to just the “coaching” of his sons. She is married to a dragon, the kind of man that she and her sons need protection from. When living with a dragon everyone gets burned. He is raising little dragons. When they get around to the age when their voices start changing they may start to spout some flames her direction in resentment for her being complicit in allowing hubby to act out his anger. Lots of exciting family get togethers ahead for this family(Bring your… Read more »
So, you think she should flee with her sons?
Not at all. I pray that light can be shed on the situation and given the right time take appropriate steps for father/son reconciliation, competent pastoral intervention would be ideal. At the very least pastor Wilson’s books on marriage and raising sons like Federal Husband, Her hand in Marriage, and Future Men are quite edifying and helpful.
I hope so.
I have known men who behave like that, even having read those books.
Proverbs 18:17
Anne, why don’t you instigate your own confrontation of your friend’s offenses against you and her fellow brethren? She should not be counseling anyone under the circumstances.
In response to Doug’s response to Matt above, what Doug says is, “what CN actually means is a work in process”. This is simply a “word salad”. In other words, it is words which mean nothing at all. Doug then goes on to say, “The fact that the definition is not settled yet does not mean that it won’t be settled soon”. If this is the case, then this means, CN may indeed have a definite meaning, and the fact of the matter is, there are those who are at war at this time attempting to make sure their definition… Read more »