Tolle, Leg It

In the aftermath of the Obergefell decision by the Supreme Court, a lot of Christian parents are reeling. They know they must do something, but what can they do? The decision was so high-handed, so arbitrary, so insolently rendered, that it would be easy to assume that there is nothing we can do about it down here at street level.

But this is false. There is are many steps we can take, and some of the first ones are steps we must take. Here is one that millions of parents could take in just a small number of weeks — they could pull their kids out of the government school system.

The necessity of doing this has been growing increasingly obvious every year, and now the need for it is open, manifest, and pretty much on fire. What can Christian parents do? If their kids are already receiving a Christian education, they can be encouraged and stand fast — and they can use the opportunity to openly appeal to Christian friends who still have their kids in the government school system. And if they themselves still have kids where their kids ought not to be . . . well, this is the perfect opportunity to bolt. If anybody asks why, a reasonable answer would be anything in the neighborhood of “fire on the mountain, run, boys, run!” This is the reason why all government schools have panic bars on their doors. That clattery shuttery sound you hear is thousands of evangelicals hitting the sidewalk.

There are two reasons for this step, given this Extreme Court decision. If your children remain in the government schools, there is now no legal way for them to be taught any normal view of human sexuality. And, depend upon it, they will be taught the other kinds. And second, they will be taught an approach to civics that sees nothing wrong with the Supreme Court’s juridical putsch here, and that is just as worrisome.

Here are some books that might be able to help. The first two are books that argue for the need for explicitly Christian education. The last two argue for the classical and Christian forms of it, but contain sections that will be helpful in under-girding our understanding of how all education is inherently religious, and therefore must be Christian. Just click on the covers.

So take up these books, and leg it out of there. As the great Augustine once heard, “Tolle, leg it.”

Update: Before checking out the books, check out this from the Department of Education. These are not the people you want defining “nurture and admonition” for you.

Hey, there, Ed. My name is Mr.Friendly. I 'm your new PE instructor . . .
Hey, there, Ed. My name is Mr.Friendly. I ‘m your new PE instructor . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christian Kids

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ExcusedAbsence

 

 

 

Recovering Lost Tools

 

 

 

Case for Classical Education

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Michael
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Michael

I find it interesting that this post was filed under “Engaging The Culture” when it calls for just the opposite. Now is not the time to run. It is time for Christian parents and Christian students in public schools to stand strong, make their voice heard and be the salt and light they are called to be. The last thing we need is to abandon the very mission field we have been given. This same logic would call all believers who teach in public schools to head for the exit as well. This would be a shame! Every Christian parent… Read more »

Laura
Guest
Laura

I agree that every Christian parent needs to make the best decision for their family, but I completely disagree it is irresponsible to pull your kids out of public school. I started home schooling when my daughter was 5. She is now 23. Both she and our son eventually went to public school, but only at the college level. She started at 16 and he started at 14. They are both graduated now and gainfully employed…and strong Christian people. Our 14 yo is currently being home schooled until he is ready to go to the college too, if I don’t… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

I said it is irresponsible for Doug to say that the ONLY biblically minded decision on the table is to pull kids out of public school.

Kids can be salt and light. I have seen many of them in my years as a student pastor and pastor. There are a lot of Christian kids educated in Christian schools and homeschooled that come out unholy and uncommitted to Christ. Often it is easy for them to become inoculated to the gospel truths because they hear them all the time – just ask any Christian school teacher or administrator.

Mike Collins
Guest
Mike Collins

Just a question: Are you saying that youngsters (or anyone) become inoculated to the gospel by hearing it “all the time”? I have heard this from parents who do not send their kids to church “too much” so they do not get “burned out” on religion. What does this worldview, which is what it is, do to the Shema? Deuteronomy 6? If we are talking about “religion” then, yes, there can be a problem. But if we are talking about the gospel… that’s a different issue. And, as we all know, not all children in “Christian” schools are regenerate. Therefore… Read more »

Evan
Guest
Evan

Michael said, “Often it is easy for them to become inoculated to the gospel truths because they hear them all the time”

Could you elaborate on this a little more? Are you proposing a different message other than the gospel? What ‘truths’ should they be hearing all the time?

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Evan,

If so inclined, please respond to the “mini-poll” I posted here:
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105850173

thx

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Mike Collins

If so inclined, please respond to the “mini-poll” I posted here:
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105850173

thx

Michael
Guest
Michael

Having attended a Christian school and been involved in Christian schools I see this as a real problem. Ask Christian school teachers and administrators what the greatest problem they face consistently and many of them will say that the kids seem unaffected by the truths of Scripture…almost as if they are inoculated to them. Why is this the case? Sure, some of them are not believers. Some are not being discipled at home. But this is the case with kids in public schools as well. So, no it does not ruin the test sample. It demonstrates that where a kid… Read more »

Laura
Guest
Laura

I read a quote from Rev. Voddie Beauchamp that was something like when we send our children to be taught by Caesar, we shouldn’t be surprised when they turn out to be Romans. The chance of this happening is there of course just by living in Rome, but deliberate home or private school vs public is like the difference between big city life and country living. I’ve done both. They are not the same at all. Your pace and appetites are trained differently.

Michael
Guest
Michael

I believe you meant Voddie Baucham. I’ve listen to him and I disagree with him for much the same reason that I have voiced above. There is no biblical admonition that would require parents to only homeschool or only send their kids to a Christian school. They can be faithful to the Lord and send their kids to public school. This is where Doug and Voddie both miss the mark.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Pastor Michael, you may have a public school where there is some light, but you ignore the problem that the public schools are a socialistic system. Government schools were set up to indoctrinate children in a socialist manner. Abortion was to kill blacks and other poor folks not to allow women a choice. Public schools are to indoctrinate children not to teach them. That was true when I attended the best schools in Virginia years ago and it is still true today. You are off the mark. My Baptist friends are also incorrect, but they prefer having spending money for… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Your opinion is duly noted. I’m good with where my kids are.

Laura
Guest
Laura

…missed the Mark for you perhaps and your POV, but I disagree there is no admonition from the Lord to direct your kids education in the most likely scenario where they would learn to fear God and walk in truth. I think scripture is clear multiple times. You seem to find public school no stumbling block in this. You are very committed to this option, for whatever reason, but I believe it is naïveté or denial or wishful thinking on your part.

David
Guest
David

Dear Michael, Among many points that could be raised against what you wrote: 1. God calls Christian parents to give them a Christian education, and this includes teaching them His Word in their going in and coming out…in other words, providing a milieu for education that is godly. As adults, we often do not have the luxury of working in a Christian environment, but for children who are impressionable, who need protecting, who need instruction to drive out the foolishness that is naturally bound up in their childish hearts, they need special considerations. Under know stretch of the imagination or… Read more »

David
Guest
David

I made some typos above (know vs. no) – but then again, I spent some time in public school, so I guess I made my own point. It’s a win-win!

yom24hrday
Member
yom24hrday

You are bullseye on

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi David Decker

If so inclined, please respond to the “mini-poll” I posted here:
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105850173

thx

Michael
Guest
Michael

I will respond to each point: 1. The idea that the only way a Christian parent could fulfill the Deuteronomy 6 command is to send their kids to Christian schools or homeschool is ridiculous. You act as if public schools do nothing except “indoctrinate” children in humanistic ways 8 hours each day. I would encourage you to engage with your public school and realize that there are many Christian teachers that do a phenomenal job teaching children. Our kids receive a great education and we are diligent to teach them biblical truths at home and they also learn them at… Read more »

Allison
Guest
Allison

Michael, Would you mind answering a few questions for me? 1) What is the responsibility of the government? To educate and/or equip the saints or to protect the freedom of those who do? Why? 2) What is the responsibility of parents? How does training them in the way they *ought to go differ from Sunday to Monday (Prov. 22:6)? 3) Who equips the saints…completely and to full maturity (Eph. 4:13)? Is this limited to particular days or subjects/work (2 Timothy 3:17)? Why would God give believers His Wisdom if He didn’t intend for us to see it (see the Greek… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Allison, let me make this very simple. Parents have the primary responsibility to disciple their children (Deut. 6). Churches have the responsibility to equip parents for this task (Eph. 4). I have not denied this in the least. In fact I wrote a dissertation on this and have a book that will be published discussing this issue. What I am arguing is that there is no biblical justification for claiming that a Christian parent does not have the ability to choose to send their kids to a public school without being in sin. This is a decision each parent must… Read more »

Allison
Guest
Allison

Yes, parents are responsible for the decision, and the church is responsible for equipping the parents so their conscience is informed by Scripture. This process is no different than choosing a church body. Scripture doesn’t tell us which one to join. But, it does make it clear what teaching and traits God finds desirable. Say a person decides he wants to join “Duncanville Unity Church”, and I ask him why. His only defense ought not be, “It’s my choice because God said the decision is mine according to my own conscience.” Have it your way. None of my questions were… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

We don’t evangelize our neighbors by sending kids to government schools any more than Paul evangelized in Ephesus by sleeping with a temple prostitute.

Michael
Guest
Michael

But he had to go to the temple to evangelize…

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Homeschooled kids actually do see other kids. Going to school would be a lousy way to evangelize, though, because leaving aside all the problematic aspects of public schools, they’re to study and listen to the teachers, not talk and socialize all day. The socializing can happen outside school between a homeschooled kid and a public schooled kid just like between two public schooled kids.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Not if you are trying to keep your “good moral kids” away from the “bad company.”

Many kids have come to Christ in public schools as a result of faithful Christian teachers and students.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

But you realize that argument being made is not trying to keep your good moral kids away from the bad company, right?

Or did you miss that?

Your second sentence is true. It also mostly beside the point.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Read through the posts and that is the exact argument many are making. Don’t send your kids to public school because bad company corrupts good morals. So if you carry it out to its logical extreme then you would not want your kids around those public school kids getting brainwashed by secular humanism.

Or you could realize that the Nehemiah Institute has discovered there is very little difference between Christian public school kids and Christian school kids – they have a secular humanist worldview. Homeschool kids do a little better but not by much!

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

I am curious as to what positive application you believe that the biblical admonition “bad company corrupts good morals” has to real life. If you don’t think it applies in any way to children in school, or if you think that any invocation of it means that we believe that people should not interact with anyone else who might be wrong about something, ever. I’m wondering how you strive to honor it in your own life, because it seems to me that under that understanding, you either have to ignore that scripture, or ignore much of the rest of scripture.… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Let’s change the scenario a bit and say that a local public school has great Christian teachers and your child is heavily involved with a great group of Christian friends that are impacting their school for Christ. Let’s also assume that the local Christian school has good Christian teachers but the kids are complacent and ambivalent about their faith. They have learned how to be little Pharisees and are like white-washed tombs. Where would you send your kids?

What I am saying is that there is not a one size fits all answer to this discussion.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Saying there is no one size fits all answer is certainly legitimate. But then potshots like “do you let your kids go to the grocery store” are irrelevant and misdirections. As a matter of fact, your first sentence reasonably well describes the school all my kids attended or are attending for high school, after being homeschooled prior to that. The Christian teachers are a small minority but they are helpful and effective. So I know there’s no one size fits all answer. But that has little do with the question of whether you can just dismiss the biblical principle that… Read more »

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

Michael, the Nehemiah Institute indicates (http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/) massively better scores for homeschoolers and especially participants in ‘Christian worldview schools’ than for those in public and other Christian schools–ca. 40 and 55 percentage points (on a scale between ‘socialism’ and ‘biblical theism’) is a lot better than ‘not by much.’ Now, I doubt this has much value, as I think their definition of ‘secular humanism’ is artificial (cf. hhttp://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/PEERS-Worldview.pdf), but your representation of what the Nehemiah Institute claims is simply incorrect.

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

Actually, let me correct that–the difference is actually 50 and 65 percentage points versus public-schoolers! But the distinction is actually useless as evidence: apparently it is ‘secular humanism’ to think that progressive taxation is a good idea–good ‘biblical theists’ should limit their economics to ‘he who does not work, shall not eat.’ I don’t think we can use this as any kind of guide to the attitudes of people in any scholastic group.

Michael
Guest
Michael

If 100 is biblically orthodox and you score a 55 then it is pretty pitiful. Is it better than 40? Well I guess if you want to split hairs over secular humanist and basically secular humanist be my guest!

Either way you slice it, neither does a great job at teaching a Christian worldview. The reason is that most Christian parents (regardless of where their kids go to school) have abdicated their discipleship responsibility. Many churches have attempted to assume this role and replace parents as well.

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

Tell me, Michael: have you actually looked at the links that I attached? The Nehemiah Institute has a completely arbitrary definition of ‘secular humanism’, and their definition of ‘biblical theism’ is basically just a particular, narrow slice of fundamentalism–certainly not the same kind held by every serious Christian, or the fulness of biblical teaching. Homeschoolers, by their measure, actually end up as ‘moderate Christians’, whereas those in public school are mostly ‘socialists’–a huge gap, as I have pointed out. Besides, a score of 100 is not necessarily ‘biblically orthodox’–it involves holding to a very narrowly biblicist view of economics, for… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

We can agree to disagree.

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

No, we can agree that I am telling the truth, and you are intentionally lying.

Michael
Guest
Michael

I think not. But be sure to contact the Nehemiah Institute and take it up with them.

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

No, I have no quarrel with them–I simply think their results useless. You, on the other hand, are intentionally and knowingly misrepresenting what the Nehemiah Institute claims, and its significance. You have been presented with evidence and argumentation showing a cornerstone of your claims throughout this read–the ‘proven research’ that you have repeatedly trumpeted–to be 1) an inaccurate interpretation of your source, and 2) based on conceptually flawed and therefore invalid research. Do you take back your previous misuse of this evidence, or do you not? Quit taking refuge in cowardly excuses–‘agree to disagree’; blaming the Nehemiah Institute rather than… Read more »

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

‘Carelessness’, of course.

Michael
Guest
Michael

You can think whatever you want about the Nehemiah Institute and their research findings. You can dismiss them if you want but I think their research has validity. It has been reviewed by outside agencies and approved for testing worldview understanding. So you can call it conceptually flawed if you want but they have outside agencies saying just the opposite. And I’m guessing their credentials for discussing validity of research are better than yours. If you doubt this contact them or read this article: http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/articles/index.php?action=show&id=35. The source has been accurately represented based on their research findings for the last 20… Read more »

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

Michael, you are misreading that information: 1. The page you cite gives three numbers for each category listed: a) the number assessed by testing in 1988; b) the number assessed by testing in 2007; and c) the percent change. You are listing only the numbers from 1988. The 2007 numbers (the second column), which are also reflected on the chart on the their homepage (http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/index.php) to which I referred before, are very different (Public school students in 1988: 38.9, in 2007: 5.4; ‘traditional Christian school’ students in 1988: 49.7, in 2007: 17.3; ‘worldview-based school’ students in 1988: 62.1, in 2007:… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

1. I can assure you it was not intentional. I did misread the data. The results, though, still hold up to the argument I have made: There is very little difference between Christian public school students and traditional Christian school students in terms of worldview. Both test as secular humanists as of the data in 2007. Homeschool students test as moderate Christians and Worldview Christian schools (less than 5% of the population of Christian kids tested) go between biblical theism and moderate Christians. So the argument, if it is to be made at all, is find a Worldview Christian school… Read more »

Philipp
Guest
Philipp

Thank you for acknowledging your error in reading the data–my apologies for being so harsh in upbraiding you for it. I concede that ‘biblical worldview’ schools and homeschooling represents a small minority of students, though the fact that a number of homeschooling students are not doing so well is beside the point (most are doing better, statistically, and some are performing spectaculary well); however, they seem to be approaches that are much more successful at achieving the desired end than the other options, and recognizing that will show a better way forward than simply observing that Christian schools have failed… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Did he send his kids there?

Michael
Guest
Michael

He didn’t have children.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Then people who feel strongly about evangelizing public schools should work there as teachers. (Personally, I am in favor of converting them into nuclear waste storage facilities.)

Michael
Guest
Michael

Many Christians are doing just that. By the way, nuking our mission field sounds about like when the disciples asked Jesus if they could call fire down from heaven on the people who rejected Jesus in Luke 9. You may want to read what Jesus did…he rebuked them.

ashv
Guest
ashv

“Nuking”? Don’t be so hyperbolic; I’m just thinking of creative ways to find better uses for public infrastructure. :-)

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Guest
Conserbatives_conserve_little

God calls Christian Men to do certain things, women other things, and children still third things. No where in Scripture does it tell children to do battle at all. Therefore, the parents who leave their children in schools with the hope of a witness are putting their children in the front lines before they are prepared for it. There are other venues for Christian witness for you kids. School is not that place.

Tim Martin
Guest
Tim Martin

Yeah, the “Children’s Crusades” are still with us…

Scott Diesing
Guest
Scott Diesing

Hi Michael. God bless you. What on earth would make us think that five year old children are equipped to go into a hostile mission field and preach the gospel. A missionary organization that would do that would be called reckless (I’m being generous).

David
Guest
David

Scott, Exactly. This is a lack of loving care and shepherding. It is perverse, really. It masks a lack of discernment, and concern, for a vulnerable group of our Christian populace, and feigns love and faith by placing a tender shoot in a harsh environment. Jesus seemed to indicate that this is NOT how loving Fathers act (Matthew 7:9-11 and Matthew 12:20). Our children need time to learn what to believe; it takes years. Some of us are suggesting that the best way to grow up a young plant is not a greenhouse, but a desert. The young people coming… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Wow – I appreciate you judging my motives…”lack of loving care and shepherding”…”perverse.” It is amazing how judgmental people can be when we are supposed to be fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

carole
Guest
carole

Then what are your motives? I am at a loss to understand what the motives can be? The ones I am told, are financial sacrifice, lack of patience, lack of desire.

Randy Starkey
Guest

Michael I’ve been following this thread a bit. I agree with your position. As a pastor I deal with all 3 forms of education mentioned here. There are many factors that can and should influence the choice of parents. My children have been involved in all 3. I see God working in all 3. To preach all Christians should exit public schools is actually poor theology and a legalism and actually ironically an uneducated viewpoint. **It definitely is far more related to family than school.** And it definitely is also a 2nd tier belief Christians should not divide over. It’s… Read more »

David
Guest
David

What are the arguments for keeping kids in public school?

Randy Starkey
Guest

David in all honesty I don’t have the time for lots of posts. I think you know that this whole issue is a very involved theological and ethical discussion, as witnessed by the exchanges here. There are many many books that have been written on it from all sides. May each of us make up his/her own mind before God. My main point is all the Scriptures being quoted here to defend a mass exodus of Christians from all public schools simply don’t teach that. They do teach our responsibility to our children. But to equate those two is not… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Actually pastor, could you answer these questions? 1. Is it possible to receive a Christian education in public school? 2. If you can receive a Christian education in public school, what makes it Christian in character? 3. Is there any qualitative difference between a Christian education in public school, and one offered by a school that overtly claims Christian beliefs? 4. For the members of your flock whose children attend public school, do the teachers mention Jesus by name, or teach that God created the heavens and the earth, or do they teach the Christian story of redemption, or the… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

No. I simply don’t have the time. As I said, read. Read widely. There are many many good books written on this subject. Then if you want to maintain your position, that’s fine. But please acknowledge and respect that there are other conservative Christians that disagree with you. And they are intelligent thinking people just as much as you are. This is not an issue of core Christianity or salvation. No heresy is involved on either side, so let’s not act as if there is.

David
Guest
David

No one claimed heresy. We claimed error. It it’s more of a core issue than most Christians may think since in Deuteronomy 6, one of the marks of covenantal faithfulness is seen in how we teach our kids to be, or not to be, faithful to God. That’s why I asked the questions above. They cut to the heart of the matter. And I believe they point out that what goes on in the classroom in a system that has overtly said they don’t allow Jesus there falls woefully short of what could be called instruction in faith and life.… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

David God bless your walk with Christ. As I said, read. It will give you much more than my short posts could. Poor exegesis is not a cheap shot. It’s my studied view. Read and you will find many that agree wIth me and challenge your interpretations. Much more in depth than a blog as we have here. But, since you feel the answers to the questions at hand are… “so obvious, as to almost be rhetorical in nature.” I guess there’s really not much point in me posting or you reading. Your mind is made up. Which was part… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Pastor, I do not think my questions were difficult, or unfair/loaded. While I understand that no one these days has the time to give a dissertation on someone else’s blog, I have to say you have not impressed me with a very Berean spirit. You inserted yourself into the thread, which is fine, and made some blanket assertions that the issue was being distorted by lousy exegesis and inflamed rhetoric.You never really made much of an effort to establish that, it seems to me, because “you didn’t have the time” to explain how it’s players choice between options (notice: more… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

David – last post for me – it would not matter what I said to you or how I answered. Your mind is made up. I highly suggest you read alternative interpretations of your Scriptural positioning. It will at least educate you as to views from other parts of the body of Christ.

Might I ask where Pastor Wilson pastors? I do not see that information.

David
Guest
David

Randy, what books? Lay them on me. I will investigate.
I live in PA. Doug is in ID.

David
Guest
David

Randy, by the way – if you want your kids in public school, or those of your flock, you had better man up. I am a fellow Christian, and you are folding like a lawn chair with this whole “I guess you won’t change your mind”. Hey brother, if you think I’m tough, wait until little Billy meets his new transgender social studies teacher – that kind only comes out by prayer and fasting. I mean, if you can’t run with the footmen…..Jeremiah 12:5.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Thanks for your measured response Randy!

Michael
Guest
Michael

But you are not suggesting – you are declaring that THIS WAY is the only way. I’m saying that there is not a one size fits all answer to this discussion. And to say that sending kids to public schools is “perverse” and shows a “lack of loving care” is ridiculously arrogant.

David
Guest
David

I’m asserting that the public schools preclude teaching our children Biblical principles by denying, our ignoring, Him as Creator, Sustainor, and the source of ethics. under no stretch of the imagination can a person read the command to teach our children in their going in and coming out that can in any way be meet by public schools, where among other things the sexual perversion of homosexuality is CELEBRATED. You are aghast that I would rule THAT option out for Christians. There are more than one option that Christians can turn to, but there are some that are illegitimate. There… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

I disagree.

David
Guest
David

Understood, Michael, but the public school system has outwardly stated that God should be kept out of the classroom, where it seems by definition He needs to be if the educational process is to be Christian in any meaningful sense of that term. At the same time, the public school system teaches only one view of origins (the atheistic one) and they have no problem with homosexuality. They do not, in the course of the actual teaching, teach the bible our anything referencing it. So, you can disagree, but your position does not make sense. The system itself rejects your… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Ok. Let’s assume you are right. What are you doing about it? Are you volunteering at your local public school and seeking to be an influence for Christ? Are you running for school board so that you can make an impact? Is your church seeking to be a presence in your local school by offering tutoring services, school supplies, doing prayer walks etc.? See, my guess is that the answer to all of those questions is no. And I am saying that it is time to stop throwing rocks at our public schools and adopt them for the mission field… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Michael I will try to respond in a more complete manner later but my occupational responsibilities will not allow me to give you a more complete answer right now. The answer to your question in short is that I’m raising my children from the moment that they wake up until the moment that they go to sleep according to what I understand the Bible to teach. I realize that a Kristen parent can send their child to public school and then after school and on the weekend provide that child Kristen instruction. My point throughout my post has been that… Read more »

holmegm
Guest
holmegm

While I think that everyone needs to weigh their own circumstances (and thus I agree that it is not the only choice available for everyone), the idea of using children as foot soldiers or as missionaries in truly hostile territory strikes me as absurd. If that’s your reason for keeping them in public school at this point, I can’t agree with that. If public schools became part time brothels or strip clubs (participation, for now, optional), would you still think they should stay there in that even more needy mission field? Would there be any point where that would become… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

I have seen countless kids make an impact in their public schools for Christ so it is not absurd to think they can make a difference. I’m not sure what your public schools look like but ours still pray in Jesus’ name at the beginning of school and at special events. They allow churches, pastors and Christian parents to be heavily involved. I know what is being taught and if there is ever a question I have rapport with the administration (many of whom are believers) and can ask questions and make suggestions. If a day comes when something is… Read more »

BooneCtyBeek
Guest
BooneCtyBeek

Let me say I am a bit skeptical. Even if the Camelot exists as you describe, all it will take is one family with one ACLU lawyer to bring it all crashing down.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Be skeptical all you want – I live here and am highly involved. All it takes is for Christian parents to get involved instead of running into our own monasteries. Bring on the ACLU – we are prepared.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Looking at this tactically, where is your evidence for success in the broader pagan culture?

Since prayer was banished from government schools, what are the social trends among the majority of population?

Tom
Guest
Tom

That was a symptom, not the disease.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Easy answer – look at higher education, the media, Hollywood and government. Why are all of these areas of our society (the ones that have the greatest influence) so secular? Christians abandoned them. We forfeited our voice and we reaped the results. In each of those areas we are outsiders looking for a seat at the table. Christian parents have the opportunity to get involved in local public schools. They can run for elected and non-elected positions and impact schools from the inside. Christian teachers and administrators can serve in public schools and seek to make an impact. Christian parents… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Or, Michael, we can raise our children so that when they go to college, or out for employment, they are actually trained to be knowledgable, faithful Christians. But before the team is ready for the state championship, they have to practice. You don’t never pick up a basketball, join the team, and then immediately play your first official game. You need to train, to practice, to be raised up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. And then, as the child becomes an adult, they are turned loose to practice those things they were taught in their youth. Question… Read more »

Jerri Nicholson
Guest
Jerri Nicholson

That is exactly the problem. We send our children down to Egypt for their education. If they spend time at the feet of the Egyptians they will bring their gods into your home. Where did we ever get the idea our children should be trained by enemies of the cross. Parents train their children in the ways of Jesus. Then they are equipped to take his gospel to the world.

Michael
Guest
Michael

I’m guessing you have never met a Christian public school teacher, administrator or board member. Sounds Iike you may need to get out more!

David
Guest
David

Do you mean a silent Christian public school teacher, silent about their faith in the classroom? Because if they speak about their faith, they will be an unemployed Christian who WAS a FORMER school teacher in the public school system, a system which is committed to systematically keeping the Triune God out of that school.

Just to clarify, when those of us on this blog who take issue with your ideas speak of Christian teachers, we are, of course,speaking about classrooms where the Christian God can be referenced verbally without fear of unemployment.

Michael
Guest
Michael

I know many public school teachers and administrators that are very public about their faith and have no concern of losing their jobs. They are “wise as serpents and harmless as doves.” They love and pray for their kids. They take opportunities to speak about their faith in individual settings. Those are the public school teachers and administrators I am talking about.

David
Guest
David

Do they speak about their faith in the classroom, as part of the education of the students? See, that would seem to be a prerequisite to the kind of education we are commanded to provide our kids (Deut 11:19; Deut 31:12,13; Ps 78:5-7). If you are a teacher, or a student, in a setting where you cannot speak about Jesus openly in class during your normal teaching/learning, then on what basis is that a Christian education? Is a Christian education important? If not, why? If it is, can you explain in what meaningful sense you can have a Christian education… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Luther also drank at the pub so be sure to follow his example there!

David
Guest
David

I can agree with what Luther said, without a wholesale acceptance of everything he said.

I sometimes drink alcohol at a pub, although I avoid drunkenness.

Could you answer my questions in the post you responded to?

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Sure, why not?

Michael
Guest
Michael

1. Yes. I know many Christian public school teachers that do. 2. Receiving a Christian education extends far beyond school hours. That is precisely my point. Christian parents can provide a Christian education for their children and still send them to a public school. We are doing it with our kids and many others have done it as well. 3. I have, from the very first post, argued that discipling children is important and necessary. I have written a dissertation on it and have a book coming out next month on this very topic. But, to say that parents cannot… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Michael, I have to be frank – I do not believe your response to point #1. I do not believe in a public school in this country that you know teachers who begin class with prayer, redemptive prayer in Jesus’ name, who refuse to teach atheistic evolution despite the use of textbooks which call it a scientific fact, who allow for teaching the Ten Commandments as the foundation for sociopolitical ethics, and who would allow for the statement (relevant to our own age) that there are only two genders, and you can’t REALLY change from one to the other. Will… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

How presumptuous to call someone a liar. The school district is in Laurens County, Georgia. I, as a pastor, have gone in and taught the gospel in the the local high school which has a Bible class. It is taught by a strong believer who prays in Jesus’ name and shares the gospel each day. He also invites local pastors to come in a share as well. The schools open each day by praying in Jesus’ name over the morning announcements. They allow churches to come in and prayer walk the school. Major events are opened with prayer in Jesus’… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Michael, if I told you that I had a unicorn, would you believe me?

Michael
Guest
Michael

So you are not even going to apologize for your comment?

David
Guest
David

No, because I did not call you a liar. I said I did not believe you, and what I meant was that I question how you define “Christian” in terms of the bar you set for what goes on in your public school. Like when you mentioned that the textbooks are “balanced and present all views” which may or may not be good, depending on the details. You and the two others on this thread are very sensitive, except when you are collectively praying for my soul, or telling me my daughter is clueless, or calling me arrogant. I admit… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Michael, count your lucky stars, brother. You hit the public school jackpot. You must live in a place where most of the public is Christian in your school district. Great. Seriously. Now for the 99% of the rest of the public schools, that is a different matter. But in your case, I am shocked, but happy for you. I think you need to ratchet down a little bit the concern for apathy as stemming from familiarity. Sure, I have seen that, and experienced it, but, for example, I would not in my own life treat a period of spiritual quietude… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

I guess I will take that as an apology :)

David
Guest
David

No, don’t, I don’t feel that I owe you one.

David
Guest
David

Wait, so are there a lot of unbelievers at your school? If not, then what is the advantage to this school over a private Christian school or homeschooling other than cost and/or convenience? If there are a lot of unbelievers, how are you getting away with what you described above?

Michael
Guest
Michael

Yes there are a lot of unbelievers at our school. In fact, the demographic studies of our area conducted by the North American Mission Board have found that 80% of our population is unchurched and likely do not have a relationship with Jesus. Our public schools look like our community. But our churches, Christian teachers, and Christian parents have staked claim on our public schools. The day may come when the ACLU finds our doorstep and we will fight their advances. They have recently sent a letter to our Board of Education after someone from another school was “offended” that… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Okay, but surely you are not suggesting that the majority of public schools are like yours, are you? Why not qualify your previous statements – for the rare exception of public institution of learning like ours, this can be an acceptable outlet for education.

Note the word “rare”.

Michael
Guest
Michael

For one, I do not know about the majority of public schools. I can make assumptions and you can as well but neither of us really know.

But let’s go back to my original assertion. I have said that Christian parents can choose to make one of three decisions of how to educate their children: public school, Christian school and homeschool. To say that the only biblically minded decision is to pull kids of public schools is misguided.

David
Guest
David

Michael, now don’t be coy. You do know about the majority of public schools. So do the people on this blog which is why there was so much push back about your comments which appear to advocate categorically for public schools as an always legitimate option for Christian parents. I’m not sure why this concept that I personally have been advocating for is so difficult for you. I believe the Bible expects and demands that Christian parents in some fashion must provide a Christian education for their children. I do not believe that you can with a straight face call… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

American South. The old Confederacy where public Christianity is a given. The poison of the North has not seeped into all the cities in the south, but it is making headway. The Pagan culture will make it a point to eradicate Michael’s influence on that school; that is one of their beachheads. David, Michael’s approach, while wonderfully appropriate for his region is not a catch-all solution. I applaud what they are doing. The town I live in up in NC is much like that. We hold hands and pray openly in the grocery store for crying out loud. Michael would… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Timothy I think you and I are on the same page. If what Michael is describing is accurate then like I said in a response to his post, he essentially has the good providence of being involved in a wonderfully aberrant public school that is functioning kind of like a tax funded Christian school. The problem is that the few people who are involved in this thread are describing public school as a generally legitimate option without making any sort of qualifications as to the kind of public school, the kind of curriculum, the kind of teachers. When people ask… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

David, Agreed. The Body of Christ is going to need your expertise on this going forward. I do not have the time to “own” this issue the way it needs to be developed. In Europe, (Germany, anyway) homeschooling is outlawed. Expect that push in America soon. (I can see the John Roberts ruling now, “The historical and legal precedents for homeschooling are manifest, correct and true, HOWEVER….) We have seen some very interesting views held by believers on this comment thread including: 0. The passion by some Christians for public education. 1. Using children as missionaries to the government school… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

David, Here is another credible rationale (from a Catholic site I frequent: https://charliej373.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/the-hour-of-lawlessness-mark-mallett/ But this hour of lawlessness also presents an opportunity: to be a keeper and guardian of the faith, preserving the truth and keeping it alive and burning in one’s own heart. Right now, the “era of peace” to come is being formed in the hearts of those who are giving their “fiat” to Jesus. God is preserving a people, often hidden from the world, through home-schooling, new vocations to the priesthood, and the religious and consecrated life in order to become the seeds of a new era,… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Interesting. Not to resort to melodrama, but I see this as one of the key reasons why the church is so impotent today, and as a key process for bottom up reformation in our country.

carole
Guest
carole

One thing that strikes me as obvious, and also not to be cliche, but what would our Lord tell us or Paul? I just can’t believe that giving Caesar what is Caesar’s meant our children. Rabbi’s and churches were responsible for education along with parents when scripture was being formed. When I step back and look at the idea of allowing the government to educate my child, a stranger who is forced to deny our King, it is unthinkable. When I talk to people, when they open up, I find that the financial worry, or self doubt that they can… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

If the following premises are accepted: p1) God instructs believers to raise their children in accordance with biblical precepts including truths such as the exclusively redemptive power of the Gospel and the absolute authority of God over His creation p2) State schools are by their very design secular and are institutionally antithetical to a biblical worldview in general, and certain truths, in particular. Then the following conclusion does, indeed, seem sound: c) It is, therefore, unwise and less than ideal for believers to delegate the lion’s share of teaching time and responsibility to State schools. From what I can tell,… Read more »

skatblueeyes
Guest
skatblueeyes

Your children are your first responsibility. Young children can not be expected to stand up to their teachers & argue against homosexuality. Sending your kids to learn homosexuality is fine isn’t sending them into the mission field, it’s throwing them to the wolves.

Michael
Guest
Michael

You have set the bar far too low for your kids. I have seen many stand up and argue for the faith in hostile settings. This has had gospel impact.

skatblueeyes
Guest
skatblueeyes

Good grief, you aren’t even following biblical instruction on raising your kids.

Michael
Guest
Michael

That is not your call to make. I’m very confident we are doing all that we are called to do biblically.

Michael
Guest
Michael

Who are you to presume that?

skatblueeyes
Guest
skatblueeyes

Who are to presume that I’m setting the bar to low for kids?

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Is not expecting your five-year-old to effectively challenge his teachers really setting the bar too low for your kids? It’s not only the 13 or 16 year olds who are in question here. And is it really in their interest to send them into a situation where they’re supposed to be getting educated, but they have to spend all their time, from the youngest ages, deciding what they’re supposed to agree or disagree with before learning it?

David
Guest
David

Jane, I agree with your concern. I think there is an incredible amount of glibness occurring when Michael and others characterize the nuture and protection of children as isolationism, while their children are at the modern version of Mars Hill. And if that is happening, great, but just like Aquilla and Priscilla, we ALL need training before we are set loose. And further, the Bible characterizes children as being naturally foolish (Proverbs 22:15) and being easily mislead by false ideas (Ephesians 4:14). I think there is a temptation of pride here, Michael. My children, and your children, are children. According… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

So what you need to do is homeschool your kids or send them to a Christian school until they reach a certain age and then send them to the public schools so that they can be a gospel witness. That solves it!

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Funny, that’s what I did/am doing. Well, not specifically “so that they can be a gospel witness,” but that is one fruit of it.

But your solution assumes that the “gospel witness” concern overrides all others. Such a glib answer does not really address all the objections that are being made. I was simply addressing your one point that it was underestimating your kids if you didn’t think they could challenge their teachers. It’s not really underestimating five year olds to think that, so that answer hardly does justice to the concern being expressed.

Scott Spuler
Guest
Scott Spuler

Michael, here is the biblical basis that convinces me of Doug’s point: Eph. 6.4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. That word “discipline” is the Greek paedeia. To the Greeks, paedeia was a loaded word, packed full of meaning. It includes the idea of education, but paedeia means much more than that. It described a full-orbed process of enculturation meant to prepare young people for being fully-equipped and engaged citizens in society. The Greeks were trying to shape young people, and ultimately shape their culture through… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

I am in agreement with the biblical call to disciple children and help them develop a Christian worldview but this can happen even if you send your kids to a public school. I have witnessed it in ministry and we are doing it with our kids. Above all this is a conscience decision every Christian parent must come to on their own. Their decision needs to be respected and the last thing that needs to happen is for this issue to divide the body of Christ. Education is important but it is not a first tier issue. Dan Darling’s article… Read more »

Scott Spuler
Guest
Scott Spuler

Michael, your original post said, “By all means, advocate for Christian education but to insinuate that Christian parents are in the wrong when they send their kids to public schools has no biblical basis even if it is your particular preference.” I tried to show not only that it has a biblical basis, but that it is a very strong one (please read the whole post, not just the teaser). While I acknowledged that there may be rare cases where a Christian parent may righteously send their child to a public school, these are the exceptions to the rule, not… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

We can agree to disagree! I’m comfortable with the decision we are making!

Lorelle Hinote
Guest
Lorelle Hinote

Great comment Michael! My husband and I both agree 100% with your view on this. The bible says our “children are arrows in the hand of a warrior”. We choose to leave our kids in public school so they have an opportunity to share the gospel with their friends, classmates and teachers. As you said, to be a light! They are going into their schools like an arrow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Michael
Guest
Michael

Thanks Lorelle!

Allison
Guest
Allison

Your kids are actually God’s…all of ours are. So W/whose view does He choose? His (Prov. 23:23). For everyone’s sake, including the lost, who also will be held in judgment for who they chose to lead their children (Luke 6:39-40, Matt. 8:17).

timothy
Guest
timothy

Michael,

If inclined, please respond to the “mini-poll” I posted here:
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105850173

thx

David Anderson
Guest

The Christian church should not be offering up its children as missionaries. The idea that a primary purpose for sending children to school is so that they can be missionaries there is ridiculous. We are to send gifted, called and equipped adults as missionaries, whilst our children should be educated, trained, disciplined and equipped in preparation for their particular callings at the appropriate time. At school, they are students (a.k.a. disciples), not educators (a.k.a. teachers). We don’t “engage the culture” through sending our children on a mission to re-educate their own educators. That idea is folly on stilts. “has no… Read more »

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

I agree with you Michael. I just looked at some interesting Department of labor stats. Nearly 70% of wome with children under 18 participate in the workforce implying that homeschool is likely not possible for the majority of women. Too, th e dept.. of education stats show there are more than 3 million teachers..student/teacher ratios are 1:12 and average spend per student is $12,000/year. This is not an entirely dismal situation worth abandoning public schools. I’m been a professor for 20 years and now work in Uganda. There are literally millions of wome who would be amazingly grateful for their… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

At 1:12 ratio and 12K/year let’s do some math and see if we can come up with some financing alternatives. 12 students @ 12K year = 144K per year. Put 70K in a teacher’s pocket as salary (show of hands who want’s to teach for that wage? I thought so) 74K/year left for school materials and overhead. Dedicate one house in “the neighborhood” to house the kids while they are being schooled. There is not property tax on that house. Can you pay the Utilities for 1 year out of that 74K? yep. Yes, you will have mortgage payments etc,… Read more »

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

Hi Timothy, That’s a pretty creative option. I’ve taught at expensive tuition universities (CMU) and in Uganda/Kenya in open air classrooms with goats and chickens and support my daughter in law’s model of home school in Philly, so yes, there are a lot of ways to teach and train children. The point I was making was in response to a writer who had stated that public schools are “welfare education” with 30:1 ratio and basically no-nothing teachers who are classroom monitors rather than teachers. Disagreeing, obviously with some data on the years of teacher training required and average costs/student. To… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Meg, There is one thing I left out–the 70K/year teacher is chosen by the parents, not by the state. The point of my comment was to show that using existing numbers, a better “physical” model can be introduced vs the centralized “cathedral to the state” that is the existing system. I saw your 12K and ran with it. Last I checked Florida was ~5K per pupil per year. At that amount, the numbers still look very good for everybody involved. The goal is to cut the activist government admins out of the deal and put the money in the… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Let me add some stuff.

The “federalizing” of decsion making (i.e. pushing decisions down, not up) is a win/win for all. The sodomites can bugger in San Fran and Mass and the Christians can worship in ID.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Meg, there is not a problem with adults rooted and grounded in the faith to witness in public schools. The rub is that Christian parents are sending their kids to public schools where they are taught secular world views and are indoctrinated in the ways of the world before they have a Christian basis for saying no. Using kids as missionaries in public schools is the same as sending Nigerian kids to stop Boko Haram. It doesn’t work and the kids are slaughtered. In public schools, Christian kids are slaughtered mentally and turn away from the faith. Taking kids out… Read more »

David Zigler
Guest
David Zigler

I wonder, Michael, are you going to tell your 6, 7, 8…year olds, that because they have strong Christian parents, to get to school and stand strong “against the wiles of the devil”. You can do it son! Just remember that I am right beside you (right here at home), while the devil’s agents are chewing them up and spitting them out. You seem naive to the fact that even Paul said ” if someone comes to you with another doctrine, flee from him.” Now, if you are strong in the spirit like Paul was, you can take it right… Read more »

Centurion
Guest
Centurion

Children are not properly equipped for full-time missionary work, especially when they’re supposed to be learning. Please, Christian teachers, stay in the government schools, you’re needed there. But Christian parents, you’re losing your 80-90% of your children to Secular Humanism. So the suggestion here to keep sending them is the definition of insanity.

JDF
Guest
JDF

There is no scriptural role for the government to educate your children. Also, your elementary-aged children are not ready to do spiritual battle with what is out there — they are not ready to be missionaries.

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

God forbid that any of my children one day turn away from God. There could be no more terrible tragedy. I would not be able to live with myself if that were to occur and I had kept them in public schools in the face of obvious evidence that they were deliberately instructed to rebel against God’s word.

bethyada
Member

I don’t mean to derail the thread but still seems apropos.

Here is more of your state at work. I am pro-vaccine but people should not be forced to do things that they have a moral objection to. How hard is this concept?

The bill, which would make California the third state to eliminate religious and other personal vaccine exemptions

Dave
Guest
Dave

Michael and Ryan, you are just wrong. In 1968, the government schools made it a point to mock God. At the time, I sat in class and asked myself “Why don’t Christians have Christian schools?” The answer for most is that Christian schools cost too much. Most of my Baptist friends are unwilling to spend extra money on schooling their children while they are also paying taxes for government schools. In case you or others reading this haven’t noticed, schools don’t talk about God except in curses or to belittle Christians. In case you haven’t noticed, schools don’t teach about… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Dave, I have had the same experience with my friends. What is sad, is that it is not a surprise. It makes theological sense when we allow God’s plain Words to be received and interpreted with honesty. Further, apart from theology, it is simply logical. When you are trained in a particular way, that is the way you learn (almost so obvious as to be trivial).

valerieab
Member

This post is to’ly legit.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

When my youngest son was in the eighth grade he came home from school and told us what his teacher had announced to the class. She said,” If I tell you one thing in class and your parents tell you the opposite when you are at home, who should you believe? You should believe ME because I am your TEACHER. Your parents may have outdated ideas about how things are supposed to be. Don’t listen to them. They are ignorant of modern society. Listen to me and learn.” I realize this is just “another anecdote” and may not be universally… Read more »

wackytobeme
Member

“…You should believe ME because I am your TEACHER. Your parents may have
outdated ideas about how things are supposed to be. Don’t listen to
them. *** They are ignorant of modern society.*** Listen to me and learn.” Not only are they being taught to violate the 5th commandment, but that what ever they are being taught as true now, may not be true for the future. So why bother?

CHUCK
Guest
CHUCK

While homeschooling probably would the best, I don’t think one size fits all. I was brought to the Lord by a young man in public school who shared Christ with me (my parents were not believers). Our church has only one or two homeschooling familes who do a great job. One thing that our church is known for in the community is a place where young people can come and here the gospel. We have many children in our community who go to public schools and are a faithful witness to their classmates. We might be fortunate that our school… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Ryan, while it is good that you were providentially protected during the driveby shooting, that still doesn’t fill the bill for you advocating that we bow down to the idol of government schooling. You and others posting here advocate that we should avoid the fiery furnace and bow down to the idols that the government puts before us. That is not scriptural. Saying that children should engage others in government schools is foolish. While it is refreshing to hear that some school districts are not actively hostile to Christians, it does not alleviate Christian parents from raising their children in… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Proven research disagrees with you – go check out the Nehemiah Institute’s research. Christian school kids and Christian public school kids score the same on worldview testing – they are both secular humanists. How do you explain this? It is not a public school/Christian school issue.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Michael, just because research shows a trend toward worldly ways does not relieve any Christian parent from their Biblical responsibility to train their children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. This is the same as Southern Baptists and other Christians saying that women have a right to murder their unborn children because it is their body and their right. You are leading parents into an ungodly trap and you should be careful of advocating worshiping at the idol’s feet. That’s what this is about: Do we worship God and follow his commands or do we use stats… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

David,

In my comment here https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105535270 I point out to Michael some problems I see with his claims and I have asked Michael to clarify.

You may find that avenue of inquiry profitable.

cordially,

t

Michael
Guest
Michael

I never said it did. I’m not sure what Southern Baptist you are talking about because, being an SBC pastor myself, I know that we support life. You may need to get your facts straight on this issue.

Public schools are not evil and Christian parents who send their kids to public schools are not worshipping at the idol’s feet. Godly Christian parents send their kids to public schools and to insinuate that they are sinning is laughable. You are being decisive over an issue that is important but not primary. Read this article and cool your jets: http://m.christianity.com/christian-life/education/homeschool-public-school-or-christian-school.html

Dave
Guest
Dave

I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church and witnessed that denomination devolve from being one which taught the Bible as the Word of God. Churches used to take communion every Sunday — then it devolved to every two weeks, then every month, then on Holy Days. The SBC has some who support the fight against abortion, but those people were older. The younger members and those who had young families saw nothing wrong with abortion, nothing wrong with homosexuality, nothing wrong with affairs and pretty much nothing wrong with any of the Big 10. Guys knew more about the… Read more »

Michael
Guest
Michael

Once again, I’m not sure what Southern Baptist Convention you are talking about. Did you grow up in the 70’s? If so then you witnessed some of these things going on. But the SBC had a Conservative Resurgence in the early to mid 80’s where the denomination returned to biblical orthodoxy. So it sounds like you have a problem with a particular church or a particular pastor. That’s fine but don’t lump all of the SBC in with some bad apples. I’m sure your particular denomination has some of those as well. By the way you can read the SBC… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Michael, I was in your SBC for 40 years — not 4 years or 14 years but 40. I know what I am talking about. I was a member in numerous SBC churches as my family moved around for work. Yes, some SBC churches returned to the Bible, but the majority did not. The error is not in one church or pastor but in the SBC. Yes, I am extremely familiar with the SBC Faith and Message.

Travis Kurtz
Guest
Travis Kurtz

Much like what Vox Day/Sad Puppies did to the Hugo Science Fiction awards, another tactic could be to engage secular education by combating the social justice warriors. Send your kid to public school, get that teacher certification, and unite in putting in Christian school board members. Social Justice Warriors run away from united opposition, this is an easy victory; for that reason, why retreat?

Michael
Guest
Michael

That is exactly what I said below. Now is not the time to retreat!

Dave
Guest
Dave

Travis, that tactic hasn’t worked successfully. It has been tried over the years. The Christian teacher cannot speak the truth and is muzzled with prejudice if they do speak out. Over the years, Christians have tried getting on school boards to change things, but after a few election cycles they are out and evil is back in. The objective is to train children in a Godly manner not to attempt to proselytize other children. That does not happen in government schools. If you want to take the latter course, than be a teacher in a government school, but send your… Read more »

Jay
Guest
Jay

Thanks for professing to know God’s will for my family.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Where did Pastor Wilson do that? You are the head, you are responsible.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Well, this turned into a lively comment thread! (:

brian
Guest
brian

Would this include how science and history is taught?

Michael Warner
Guest
Michael Warner

I am a teacher at a small Christian school (K-12), the father of three–all of whom went through the public system, partly because of the expense of alternative programs–and I do deal with students coming in from the public system. My children happen to be above average-to-exceptional (objectively verified, not just bragging), so they made it through very well in spite of the nonsense in what is, generally speaking, a decent district as far as faculty is concerned. Many of the students who come to my classroom from the public system have educational deficits like you wouldn’t believe; not due,… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Ryan, please tell us 10 Godly things that are taught in the government schools today. That’s 10 things that we might hang our hats on that glorify God in the government schools.

David
Guest
David

Dave, I would settle for one example of the name of Jesus being mentioned by a teacher during classroom hours. But if they happened, that teacher would be reprimanded, or fired. You CANNOT mention Jesus in public school from the lectern. And that is why no Christian child should be in public school. There are different paths for providing a Christian education, but one of them is not a school system that is overtly, unabashedly, and defiantly non-Christian.

David
Guest
David

Dave, Without controversy, three inescapable cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith would include creation, the fall, and redemption. No Christian religion can exist without those. Would you like to place money on any public school in the country teaching even one of these points? Most public schools will teach people ethical ideals (work hard, be tolerant, don’t cheat). Is there a reason to do this without the Triune God? Or, more specifically, is there a reason countenanced by the Bible to do this, without acknowledging Him? I liked your post, because I think it underscores that, at most, public schools… Read more »

Steve Perry
Guest
Steve Perry

Perhaps this might be a good time to re-consider the tradition followed for 1900 years that was abandoned just a generation ago. Specifically, that sisters (not wives), wear a simple hat to church which the scriptures teach acknowledge our created sexuality and cover mans glory in worship. Might it be that the removal of this symbol in every sanctuary, across every denomination, is the mind numbing conformity of modernity?

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

I am a Christian and a Professor. I don’t get the concept of hiding in a bubble or placing our kids out of public schools. I’ve raised 4 sons who each have a reach doing good. Jesus said Go forth”.not hide. I don’t think kids learn to deal with a crazy world by a model that would advocate yanking them out of good, solid school systems. Give them a safe shelter to discuss what they see and hear and how to deal with it. Children can learn right from wrong and practicing these contrasts seems like a healthier way to… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Meg Brindle

Out of curiosity, where would you place yourself on the Nehemiah worldview grid ?

http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/PEERS-Worldview.pdf

I am curious if our disagreements stem from differences in their “Biblical Theism” vs “Moderate Christian” perspectives.

I will be asking the other interlocuters

timothy
Guest
timothy

Meg Brindle,

If inclined, please respond to the “mini-poll” I posted here:
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tolle-leg-it.html#comment-2105850173

thx

carole
Guest
carole

It is interesting to have your opinion, thanks for sharing. I wouldn’t describe christian schools or homeschooling as hiding in a bubble however: I honestly am not sure what that means… how exactly do you think kids who receive an education with the foundational premise that Jesus is Lord are hiding? What will kids go forth with after 13 years of learning that Jesus isn’t Lord? Good solid school systems need to be founded on biblical principles. Otherwise they are not good, they are not solid, and they are not about the truth. Right and wrong comes from our Lord… Read more »

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

Hi Carole, In response to your questions: My motive for responding as a first time post, was to a message that clearly advocated for Christians to remove their children from government funded schools, and offering my perspective. My concern is 2-fold: We are not raising children to remain children. If they could remain children and always with us, then perhaps they would not need to learn to deal with the world and its many evils. The reality, however, is that they are children for roughly 12 years; transitioning to adult for 3-4 and then must spend 60-70 years dealing with… Read more »

carole
Guest
carole

God has told us how to best raise up our kids. Ephesians 6:4. Why would I send my child to a place that does not believe our God is Lord to be raised up instead? That is the opposite of what He has told us to do. I don’t see it as a question of pulling my child out. It is a question of why would anyone put a child there in the first place unless it was a last resort? Welfare is intended to be a last resort, not the first response, not the standard. I keep pointing out… Read more »

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

Carole, You should do what you believe is right, which is what you are doing. Bravo. I lose you though on the concept that teachers have no special knowledge or capabilities to teach children, that this is a lie. Wow – wish I could tell my son who spent 5 years getting an education degree with specialized additional year and student loans that he didn’t learn anything. Standards for teachers have gone up not down in the past 20 years. Hundreds of US universities actually do teach teachers specialized topics and how to teach. I’m a teacher/professor with 6 years… Read more »

carole
Guest
carole

Statements like “Legitimate schools” is fear mongering. Christian schools are legitimate not welfare public education.
I disagree about doing what is right in our own eyes. The bible clearly warns us about that. Do what He says is right is the point.
Sorry but education classes are very silly, very easy and generally a waste of time. Curriculum is easy to purchase as are Christian tutors and teachers easy to find.
Your language is loaded, as I am sure you are aware.
Blessings.

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

Some facts: Public school systems will employ about 3.1 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) teachers in fall 2014, such that the number of pupils per FTE teacher—that is, the pupil/teacher ratio—will be 16.0. This ratio is not measurably different from the 2000 ratio of 16.0. 2) The current expenditure per student is projected at $12,281 for the 2014–15 school year and 3) In fall 2014, about 49.8 million students will attend public elementary and secondary schools. This data is taken from the National Center for Education Statistics. http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display. No one is saying you should send your children to public schools, but to… Read more »

carole
Guest
carole

Those government employees are funded by our tax dollars as is the entire welfare education program. I call it welfare, because the government set it up as part of the welfare department until it became so large it needed its own department. It is a welfare program. That is a fact. If people don’t like the sound of being on welfare, they should stop accepting it. But it is a government, tax funded program there to provide an education for children whose parents are unwilling or incapable of providing one for them. I never said teachers were “nothing but” classroom… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Your first concern is a bit of a straw-man, because I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that through home-schooling, our children will get to remain children indefinitely. Of course, I don’t really even know what that means, so maybe I missed it. (Edited to add) Is there evidence that the infantilization of Americans is more significant among those who were home-schooled? As to your second concern, you haven’t really offered any objective measures. You seem to just be drawing conclusions from intuition. Is there evidence of significant work-place tension because home-schoolers don’t know how to handle arguments with their bosses… Read more »

suzannecarter
Guest
suzannecarter

My children have been to Christian school and were homeschooled. Three are now grown and are doing exceptionally well in the Military, Law and Banking, with the fourth doing an internship for our local church. I am still homeschooling two.They grew up with an Aunty who is a lesbian and love her but know clearly what the biblical position is on homosexuality. They are balanced, loving and wise individuals who are not perfect but who stand head and shoulders above their peers. I respect the rights of parents to choose the education that their children receives but don’t be deceived… Read more »

Allison
Guest
Allison

I wouldn’t accuse Wisdom of hiding, if I were you. “Leave the presence of a fool, or you will not discern words of knowledge.” (Prov. 14:7) If discerning knowledge is necessary to becoming educated (which it is), then we ought train our kids to seek the wisdom who can offer it.

The healthiest way to prepare our kids is to train them to fear God and trust His original design. The government to protect our freedom to equip the saints and educate our children…not replace us.

carole
Guest
carole

Meg,
Is it really public schools or hiding in a bubble,,,,I think that’s called a false dilemma?
This also falls into the reasoning of throw your toddler into the pool and he will learn to swim…
And lastly, I certainly don’t advocate “yanking” children anywhere? But I do question why you would put them into a place they have no business being. I advocate keeping them at home and/or with your church where they will be nurtured, educated and loved.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Meg, the issue is if government schools provide a Biblical, Christian education. Home school, Christian school and other Christian education methods aren’t hiding in a bubble, they are preparing themselves to be Christian adults. Children are not equipped to fight the fight in public schools. Public schools currently do not give a Christian education.

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

Dear Dave, Let’s start with where we agree: We are tasked to raise our children in the way they should go. The challenge is we are not raising children to remain children forever, but little ones who spend about 12 years as children, another 6 as teens under our roofs, and who will spend 60-80 years as adults. What will the child who has not been exposed do when she/he goes to college and their favorite professor is gay? Or the students in their small study group? Or their boss/coworker? I realize many believe that 16 years of home school… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

There’s going to be a First Time for any exposure, anyway. Why do you presume that a sheltered homeschooler meeting his first gay professor at college is going to suffer more trauma than a 2nd grader meeting his first gay PE instructor?

It seems like a a straw-man to suggest that homeschoolers as somehow expecting their children to remain so forever.

Meg Brindle
Guest
Meg Brindle

I don’t wish to get into an argument with you Steven but to clarify one point: I am definitely not saying it is or should be traumatic to have a gay professor. I don’t think Jesus would be or expect Christians to be ‘traumatized’ by difference, but to learn to engage with difference and find common ground, which is our common humanity and need for grace as we all share a fallen state, emphasis on all. Have a nice day.

Steven
Guest
Steven

Apparently, I misread you, then. What were you suggesting with questions like this: “What will the child who has not been exposed do when she/he goes to college and their favorite professor is gay?” For the record, my family home-schools, and by the age of 10, both of my daughters have had good friends who’s mothers’ were homosexual and had live-in partners, and one has a gay soccer coach. What you you think my daughters will do when their college professor is gay? Do you think my home-schooling will leave them worse-equipped for that than they would otherwise have been?

Randy Starkey
Guest

Exactly Meg. The everyone pull out is a legalism. I suspect it’s tied to the postmil eschatology of the author.

Dave
Guest
Dave

No Pastor Starkey, legalism is not the reason. The issue is over the indoctrination of Christian children in government schools versus providing a Christian education.

Do the kids in your congregation go to school where the teachers say that God created the heavens and the earth? Do they go to school where the teachers speak often about the sovereignty of God?

David
Guest
David

Randy, if I said that everyone should avoid stealing, would that be legalism? Is your concern the “everyone” or the “pull out”?

Randy Starkey
Guest

OK. I’ll answer this one. Stealing is a clear cut issue in Scripture. The best approach to education and Christian discipleship for our kids is a matter of interpretation and the subject of various consensus and also some good honest intelligent disagreement, as evidenced here. So – you are comparing non-comparables. Can you find any Christian books advocating stealing as a lifestyle? No. Can you find many books and articles by Christian authors discussing the varied approaches to schooling and raising Christian kids? Yes. So, you are really stretching trying to make your point. Your comparison is not intellectually credible.… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Why is it wrong to steal? What do you tell the class? Do you tell them because the Triune God commands we not?

I didn’t bring up stealing and a public school exodus because I thought they were exactly analogous. I did so for the reason I’m getting to in this response

David
Guest
David

Randy when you stated in your post that you took issue with the idea that a Christian education was always superior for everyone did you mean to type that? Were you suggesting that it might be better for some people to have a non Christian education? If you did mean to type that can you explain to me how the various scriptures in the Bible that commands us to teach our children the commands of God, how those would be irrelevant to the topic that you’re raising, and could you provide any examples from the Old or New Testament where… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

Not Christian education. Christian school. Christian education is much broader than a school. Also, you countered my charge of legalism by using the stealing illustration. It’s not a comparable. Sorry.

David
Guest
David

When you leveled the charge of legalism I was trying to figure out if your charge was based upon the all-inclusive nature of the statement that you were taking issue with or whether it was based on something else. So I chose a topic that I didn’t think you would take issue with which is that stealing is wrong. I wanted to see if you had a problem with universal statements such as that some things are always wrong or that they’re always right or if you had problems with other aspects of what’s being discussed. Now please answer the… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

You’re confusing spiritual education with other educational areas. Yes, they relate, but in most public schools you would answer “go ask your parents”. The correct answer is because God says so. In some public schools you can still quote the appropriate commandment. Some you can’t. But nevertheless, it’s the parents ultimate responsibility to answer the question. FATHERS bring up your children… HOW a father does that is his job to decide. It must be proactive, but there are many ways to skin that cat. Let me give you another example. I am not only a pastor, I am a graduate… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Randy in the public schools where you’re forced to say go home and ask your parents do you feel that that is providing a Christian education that’s of the same quality as in a Christian school where you can always say “Because God said so”? I can understand on some topics where the teacher might refer the child back to his or her parents because there really is a grey area being discussed, but that’s not what’s happening here in the example where little Billy raises his hand and asks Mr Randy why stealing is wrong. What’s happening here is… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

David – try to see the bigger picture. You are confusing what you keep calling “education” with “schools” and “discipleship”. I’ll say it again. Those three are NOT the SAME and they are NOT EQUAL. I could say much more but I honestly do not have time. GO READ!

David
Guest
David

Randy, schools are a large part of where education occurs. You’re dodging the question. A Christian view of education includes the academic and the spiritual, the paidea. We are training intellectual, moral, spiritual young people, and so what they learn, and how they are taught to reason, is heavily influenced by who teaches them and what they are taught. Education therefore inescapably takes on a spiritual and a religious dimension. Liberals understand this. That’s why the want a lock down on their church – the school system. They desire a greater degree of confessional purity than the Christians, sadly. I… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

We definitely disagree on how the process works. As a FATHER (that’s who the command is to after all) all MY “Billy’s” got a straight answer and they know the truth. In EVERY area.

David
Guest
David

I don’t doubt that all of your Billy’s got the right answer. But the answer that you gave your Billy’s is definitely different than the answer that you would be able to give to someone elses Billy and until you come to grips with that you’re talking yourself in a circle. It’s your insistence that not being able to tell someone else’s child what you were able in plain language to tell your child and yet you consider no qualitative difference between these approaches is what has people on this blog taking issue with you. And I’m not sure that… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

David you keep reducing Christian education to the school. It’s bigger than that. It’s discipleship in all of life. As Dt. says – when you rise up, when you sit down, when you walk by the way. NOT just at school. The public school is not the place for spiritual training in our day and age. In fact, some of it’s NEGATIVE aspects are helpful for (older) Christian kids to grow. It’s when everything is just right that Christians often go blaise. Ja.1 is great on this. The benefits of testing. MY only responsibility is MY “Billys”. OTHER Fathers must… Read more »

David
Guest
David

If the public school is not a place for spiritual training in the day in which you and I live then it’s not a place for Christian children. Christian children have a lot to learn in a wicked and dark age. I don’t know about your children but my children don’t have 8 hours a day for 13 years to be wasting. I’m not suggesting that the school house is the only place where education or discipleship occurs. But it is a very significant contribution of our children’s time each day for a large part of their formative years. Children… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

You are asking the right questions. “Which would be better?” I ask them in each situation also. But the answer in each case is not simplistic and not the same in every situation. My answer for my kids involved all three options (home, Christian, public) at various times and in various ways. Each family has to make that call. But to reduce it to a one size fits all, and to totally jettison the public school at all times is a big mistake IMHO. I believe God *wants* some Christian kids there, especially older ones, for all sorts of various… Read more »

David
Guest
David

You know Randy I can see as a child becomes older and becomes less of a child and more of a young man or young woman where perhaps it might be time for that child to venture out into a world that they’re going to have to face at some point anyway, if they’re planning on going to college that is, and that would be the secular world of higher education. And I can see where maybe at the age of 16 or 17 if, if that child has had a very solid theological training, that perhaps that child might… Read more »

Randy Starkey
Guest

David as I said we just see the process differently. I am truly out of time now. My kids are doing great at 33, 30, 25 and 21. God bless!

David
Guest
David

Randy for a pastor who makes a lot of assertions about what the Bible does and does not teach I really wish you would provide some scriptures to back up what you’re saying. I really don’t believe that these issues are all that vague and open-ended. In fact with all due respect I think your arguments fail to even make conceptual sense and that in many cases they contradict themselves, such as in yOur last post where you seem to want to parse discipleship education and school, while advocating for public school, while at the same time describing how public… Read more »

David
Guest
David

Hey Randy I noticed you seem to have more time now. Maybe you could also go back and answer those four pretty fair questions I asked you earlier. I’d love to hear your response.

Randy Starkey
Guest

Nope. I’m just giving some grace LOL! Go read books. I’m back to work.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Pastor Starkey, as an engineer you draw sharp lines between Christian education and school. Most lay people equate the two as the same, School = Education, and that is a rub point in your posts. Pastor Starkey, there are books on living by stealing, but they aren’t in the Christian book stores. In Christian bookstores and online however, there are many articles and published works that promote the homosexual lifestyle as a valid Christian lifestyle. Who stands against homosexuality? How many pastors have had their tires slashed or their houses vandalized because they preached fiercely against homosexuality? Not that many.… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Meg, in America’s current school system can teachers proclaim that there is one God? Can they openly proclaim that God is the creator and made the heavens and earth? Can teachers teach that is the basis for each and every subject that they study? Can you stand before your class and declare that any of these? This is not a complicated theological issue, but it is muddled. My Baptist friends don’t want to home school or send their kids to Christian schools because it costs them $X extra in addition to their taxes. They say it is for salt and… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Dave,

Thanks. You are doing good work.

timothy
Guest
timothy

As a sort of duct-tape and vice-grips mini-poll please reply to this comment with your worldview as stated on the Nehemiah Worldview.pdf page here:

http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/PEERS-Worldview.pdf

Michael has recommended their research, but I am wondering if our differences correlate with the categories that link presents:

Biblical Theism
Moderate Christian
Secular Humanism
Socialism

I will reply to my own comment as an example reply.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Biblical Theism

carole
Guest
carole

Biblical Theism

tpbaehr
Guest
tpbaehr

Thanks for asking – but I’m not clear what you’re after. The grid doesn’t seem very comprehensive.

Rob Slane
Guest
Rob Slane

Timothy,
Biblical Theism for me thanks.
Rob

Thomas Achord
Guest
Thomas Achord

If everyone would perhaps read a book or two that Doug mentions, a lot of questions and misconceptions might clear up.

Sarah R
Guest
Sarah R

Doug (and all), I am a public school teacher. I have no children of my own and consider it a calling to work with students everyday. By God’s grace I have seen 3 students come to know Jesus, I have helped connect many churches to the needs of our students and families, and I have been fortunate to join in prayer movements for the thousands of broken students and homes connected to my school. I don’t disagree that they can be dark and terrible places. In my opinion that is caused equally by the actors in the battle for our… Read more »

carole
Guest
carole

Thank you so much Sarah for sharing. I was once in a very similar situation and I really appreciate you being so honest and asking this question. I pray you will receive an answer, particularly from Doug or your own pastor.
Blessings,
carole

Allison
Guest
Allison

If you had/have to lie to be in your position…and God cannot lie….what do you think? If teaching students is your calling…then your first responsibility is to God. Partner with others who were called by Him. The government wasn’t created to educate or equip students, but to protect the freedom of those who do have that responsibility (parents and the Church/believers). Out of love for all of you teachers…James 3:1.

Dave
Guest
Dave

Sarah, if you are called to be a teacher, teach and enjoy teaching. The question is not about adults interfacing in the government schools, but children. Adults are supposed to be rooted and grounded in scripture, they are supposed to be able to withstand the wiles of the world and to be able to give a good answer at all times.

Children are not so equipped and that is the point of this thread.

bethyada
Member

Sarah, I took Doug as referring to Christians having children in secular school, not about Christian adults teaching in secular schools.

While I guess he would prefer the government not to be involved in providing education, but as they are, then this is a good place for Christians to do godly work.

Dave
Guest
Dave

For those who are reading this blog, a bit of history might be helpful. Before Johnson declared the Great Society, he had his men check with the Christian and Catholic denominations. The sales pitch was that if everyone paid a small percentage more in Federal Tax, the Federal Government would take care of all the indigents and the churches would be able to scale back their food and clothes closets. Preachers, elders, deacons and such wouldn’t be getting calls in the middle of the night for assistance. Instead the Federal Government would take care of those needs and churches would… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

+ 10

Mrs. Gore
Guest

I am a homeschooler who once ridiculed the institution, back when I was a teenager, thriving at my public school and thinking that anyone who kept their kids home all day was backwards. Then I had my first baby. The thought of sending that child to ANY place 6+ hours a day, out of my sight and away from my instruction, was immediately inconceivable, and I began to soften toward the idea of the homeschool model. I have four children now, a buzzing homeschool, and zero regrets. We live on the one-income paycheck of a small-church pastor, and the Lord… Read more »

Spike Pittard
Guest
Spike Pittard

Fascinating post. So much hand wringing. And so much arrogance. Our children are people with their own minds. A protectionist stance like Mr. Wilson is urging us to adopt is no better than the fictional public school he describes. In both cases, kids are imagined as incapable of forming any of their own thoughts, behaving more like sponges. Do we want children that can not think for themselves? If the answer is yes, then follow Wilson’s advice. If the answer it no, then send them to public school, do your best as parents to instill confidence and critical thinking skills… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

It strikes me as a bit odd to fret over the arrogance and hand-wringing of Doug’s post. God’s big enough to protect all those impressionable public school parents from being persuaded by Doug “dead words” isn’t He? ;)

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

One wonders if God can’t enable children who are educated in a Christian environment to learn to think for themselves, too. I wonder why he even equates Christian education with not learning to think for oneself.

David
Guest
David

That’s a good point Jane. I guess what I’m concerned about is I see people posting things that would seem to lead us to either disregard or perhaps worse yet disobey directives in Scripture but then just justify this by simply stating that any gainsaying of their approach is simply a lack of faith. Can you imagine if Noah told God hey why build an ark you’re pretty powerful just give me gills. God saves and sanctifies through his own means that he chooses. When we disregard those means we’re not exhibiting faith.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Do we want children that can not think for themselves? If the answer is yes, then follow Wilson’s advice. If the answer it no, then send them to public school Evidence for this? When the trend in homeschooling academic achievement numbers became clear, I stopped following the issue because it was readily apparent that homeschooled kids are better educated and better socialized than government schooled kids. I posted a link from Bing search showing what I had seen then–homeschoolers are top notch academics in high demand by top-tier universities. God is much bigger than a late 19’th century model designed… Read more »

Darius
Guest
Darius

Haha, so you really think kids learn to think for themselves at public school? If so, I know a prince in Nigeria who wants to give you a bunch of his money.

Art
Guest
Art

Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”

Steven
Guest
Steven

I’m not sure if this is completely on topic, but it reminds me of Van Til’s Essay “Why I believe in God.” When I first read it, it did a great job opening my eyes to the realization that there is no neutrality in the secularist’s “neutral” worldview. He’s speaking of “open-minded” parents raising enlightened children rather than of public schooling, in particular here, but I thought it seemed apropos, nonetheless: “Living next to the Library of Congress, you were not so restricted. Your parents were very much enlightened in their religious views. They read to you from some Bible… Read more »

Pat
Guest
Pat

To ryansather, Is the education your children are getting at the public school one that glorifies God, teaches a Biblical, God-centered world-view in all subjects and supports and enhances what you are teaching them at home? My thought is that any Christian sending their children to public school would have to teach the equivalent of a complete Christian, education on top that. It sounds like your children go to school for a mission opportunity but what about their education? You really can’t be letting them teach your children science and history and social studies and art and math apart from… Read more »

Evan
Guest
Evan

Perhaps Pastor Wilson’s post is an echo of this exhortation:

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15

Of course after he said this, Joshua may have sent his children to the temples of the surrounding nations to learn. All in the spirit of a ‘well-rounded’ education of course.

timothy
Guest
timothy

After reflection last night, my request for the ‘duct-tape’ poll was ill-considered and rude. I well try not to do something like that again.

I had an idea, and asked others to labor on my behalf to flesh it out. I regret doing that.

Now then! to see what has transpired since last night!

Donna
Guest
Donna

Ok I am a Christian mum of 6 children all of whom have been raised in christian schooling and later when our school closed homeschooling. My children are amazing, kind, compassionate lovers of truth. I am still homeschooling the youngest two, they have lots of non christian friends and play in sports teams. My older kids have strong biblical worldview’s and engage with others on many topics and they know why they believe what they believe. They stand out in our church community in the midst of their peers and we have been honoured by our pastors publicly for raising… Read more »

Dave
Guest
Dave

Amen!

timothy
Guest
timothy

Re: Update Dept. Of Ed , we see the importance of symbols in the culture. I posted this link elsewhere, but I am reposting here because it is apropos.

http://thefutureprimaeval.net/we-support-diversity-and-equality/

Note the rapidity of the transformations and the subservience of the populace at the link.

Katecho
Member

After considering the counter-arguments, rationalizations and anecdotes offered here, I still conclude that even if a child played in a busy intersection and survived, it is still unwise parenting to advocate such a thing. I’m frankly tired of the rationalizations about how “my kid turned out fine”, or “my kids can evangelize the unbelievers”. This line of justification completely misses whether the civil government has any legitimate role in usurping the authority of the family to establish a compulsory, tax-based monopoly on education. Since they do not have such authority from God, I would oppose their institution even if it… Read more »

Lisa Reese
Guest
Lisa Reese

We homeschooled all four of our children and loved it. Our goal was to provide a Christ-centered education that was tailored to the needs of each child, and, by God’s grace, we did just that. It was entertaining, challenging, and satisfying. Still, half of our children chose to run away from God’s call. Raising children isn’t like baking cookies–children have free will. Having said that, I’d never, ever send a child of mine to a public school (my experience there was not a good one) and I’m thankful that my own grandchildren are being homeschooled. And, I now teach at… Read more »