And Here They Are
If the people’s need to hear from others (that aren’t you) about Ms Millers loose grasp of reality and facts when it comes to you, may I remind you of the article by David Goodwin responding to her ridiculous assertions with regards to the ACCS and CCE,
And then [there is] Joseph Bayly on his blog (he touches on the Omnibus and plagiarism among other things)Heather
Heather, thank you.
A week or so ago I noted that Rachel Miller had taken umbrage with you for using Paul’s “love/respect” language about husbands and wives. Now it seems she is irked by your using the language from 1 Thessalonians. But what takes the proverbial cake I just found in her own defense of her writing… please take a look at her own page you noted, defending her writing as noted against Mark Jones’ critique.
She copies a section apparently straight from her book, prefacing by saying, “Here is a direct quote from Wilson in my book.”
She then copies the section of her book where she catalogues and quotes “your” repellent belief – where she wrote, “Many conservative Christians teach that… women should [and here she quotes “you”]… “cultivate an inner beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit.” Footnoted, with a footnote that draws the reader to see Her Hand in Marriage chapter 3… Apparently totally oblivious to the fact you were simply making a near quote of Peter this time.This is as cringe-worthy as that time that Bill O’Reilly called out Phil Robertson because of “Phil’s” unacceptable claim that “Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers — they won’t inherit the kingdom of God.” Bill seemed especially smug, confident he had caught Phil in a “gotcha” moment… not realizing he was simply exhibiting his own disgraceful biblical illiteracy.
In all seriousness, I’m beginning to have to wonder… has Rachel Miller ever read the Bible?
Daniel
Daniel, yes. It is a trouble.
Thanks for this. I’m currently rethinking through the issue of women in both children’s ministry (K-5th) and youth ministry (6th-12th) at church. The admonition that women ought not to teach men in the church is clear, but I have often thought this only applies to women teaching adult men as opposed to males from preschool up to the end of high school. As mentioned above, I’m rethinking this and want to make sure that my views align with what Scripture actually teaches. Should women be teaching even in children’s ministry? If so, at what age do they stop? Is it better to not even have a children’s ministry?
Have you written on this topic before in either a book or another blog post? If so, can you link me to either of them? Thanks in advance for your reply.
Bryan
Bryan, I have not written on this in any detail. But I would prefer to remain silent where the Bible is silent, and Scripture does not address the question of women teaching boys. We have the indirect statement in Proverbs that a son should “obey the law of his mother.” So as a general rule I wouldn’t want to make a rule, but would rather encourage male Bible teachers the older the kids gets.
Re: A Petticoat in the Bicycle Chain
I’m 100% on board. But do have one question. I have a pastor friend, whose judgment I trust, who takes Paul’s admonitions that women not teach and to be silent as applying within gathered worship. So would allow them teach in, say, Sunday school. I haven’t looked at that specifically, so haven’t figured out sure where I stand on it, though your thoughts on women teaching generally fit the pattern of Scripture with men as the head, imitating God the Father and Christ the husband. Your thoughtsBill
Bill, I would prefer to say that something like Sunday School should be considered part of gathered worship. When something clearly isn’t under the aegis of the church, like a conversation after dinner, where Priscilla and Aquila had Apollos over, Priscilla can have at it.
With regard to “A Petticoat in the Bicycle Chain,” could you elaborate on why you think women should not teach a mixed-gender Sunday School class? I am in complete agreement with you on this issue, but for the second semester in a row, my soft complementarian church is allowing a woman to teach a class on an elder-approved book. I’m debating on whether I should raise this issue with them at all. I would have no reservations under normal circumstances, except that woman is my mother. Perhaps my reservations is cowardice, but am interested in your thoughts.
Sam
Sam, Paul’s prohibition includes not allowing a woman to “usurp authority” over men (1 Tim. 2:12). I think it would be very hard to have a class in a church on the Lord’s Day without crossing that line. And if the woman teacher successfully avoided teaching with authority, then it would be a lousy class. I don’t see a good way through here.
A Petticoat in the Bicycle Chain
Would like to find the Dorothy Sayers essay mentioned in the post. I’ve already read and enjoyed many of her lighter works (particularly the adventures of Lord Peter Wimsey) and noted the many Biblical references, particularly in the book of IsaiahSusan
Susan, the essay is entitled The Lost Tools of Learning, and is included as an appendix in my book Recovering the Lost Tools of Learning. And a Kindle edition of her essay is available here for just 99 cents.
“Given the fact that I take such a strong line against women’s ordination, or women teaching Sunday School classes with men in it…”
Just out of curiosity, what roles do women at your church play? Do they participate in the worship service at all? Back-up singers? Piano players? Conductors? How about Scripture Readings or public prayers?
What about in the teaching ministries? I assume the nursery is staffed by women only, but what about teaching kids Sunday School or VBS? Would you be open to adult Sunday School being taught by couples? What about small groups? Women’s Bible studies?
Sorry for all the questions, but as a Pastor they are relevant to my daily life
BJ
BJ, women sing in our choir, and play musical instruments that accompany the choir and the congregational singing (piano, strings, etc.). Occasionally, a choral piece will have a woman soloist. We don’t have Sunday School.
Carl Trueman will be speaking at my church the third week of October this year, along with: W. Robert Godfrey, Neil Stewart, T. David Gordon, Steve Lawson, Mark Ross and others.
Do you have any specific items that I should be on the lookout for during his talks?
Do you have links to any questionable articles that he has written?
Thank you
Ed
Ed, the main thing I would be considering is who he refers to, who he endorses, or quotes. Given his approval of Rachel Miller’s work, which really is slipshod, and given the fact that Trueman really is a scholar and should know better, it should make you a bit curious about what is going on.
A Red Lady Bug, With Black Dots
Thank you for sharing your wisdom. Where does this all end (revolution, civil war, mediocrity, Farenheit 451, 1984 … )
Jeffrey
Jeffrey, I do think it is going to end ugly. Given the insanity levels out there, how could it not?
Regarding Doug’s response to Bryan’s letter:
We are given one example of a law of a mother in Proverbs 31. Whoever King Lemuel was, he clearly was repeating what his mother taught him in the first nine verses.
Forgive me for beating this horse, I am just absolutely dumbfounded, still unable to believe what I am reading, and I keep reading it over and over like watching a train wreck. This is not just wrong, it is atrociously wrong. She shares that paragraph of her book (“Here is a direct quote from Wilson in my book“) to justify her accuracy in quoting “Wilson.” The full paragraph is… Many conservative Christians teach that godly, feminine women should demonstrate the virtues of Victorian true womanhood: purity, piety, submission, and domesticity. They should never be harsh, demanding, controlling, assertive, loud, or… Read more »
And that isn’t the only place she quotes clear biblical instruction as a negative. Here’s another example that it just floors me to see a professing Christian woman object to:
“Good wives were expected to be faithful, honest, careful with money, and not too concerned with their appearance. Being greedy, angry, or quarrelsome was inappropriate. Instead, wives were encouraged to be humble, to take care of their households, and to love their children even more than their own lives.”
Doug, if you happen to read this – I have a dumb question. What do you mean by teaching “with authority”? I can kind of guess what you mean, and I could assign meaning to that phrase, myself, but it could be taken to mean one of several things, so for clarification, I ask.
John, what I mean is that Bible teachers ought not be “it seems to me” teachers, but rather “thus saith the Lord” teachers.
Thanks Doug.
JohnM wrote: What do you mean by teaching “with authority”? A lot hinges on how we answer this question. So it’s not a dumb question by any means. In a sense, anyone (including a woman) who appeals to Scripture is invoking its authority for their cause. In another sense, the only authority that any of us (including men) can ever have is derived from the authority of God’s Word. So any attempt to invoke Scripture without authority, is completely contrary to the nature of it. But we must still distinguish between teaching “with authority”, as such, and the act of… Read more »
Thank you Katecho.
One thing I would add is that besides abdication by men, what has happened should be described as usurpation by women. To pull it off women had to be supported by men wielding power, true, but it is not just a case of “the men wouldn’t, so the women had to”.
JohnM wrote: One thing I would add is that besides abdication by men, what has happened should be described as usurpation by women. Agreed. In our modern culture, there is a combination of both. It wasn’t my intent to overlook the culpability of particular women who are usurpers at heart. That’s certainly a thing. I also agree with JohnM that abdication by men is not justification or permission for women to invade every office. My goal was that we must try to express carefully and precisely what is being prohibited of women. To take Wilson’s example above, I see no… Read more »
Katecho, You said: “The places where we find women filling particular offices of spiritual or civic or familial authority over males are places where those males are generally not acting as men.” I wonder why it is only in this subject that when someone transgresses the clear teaching of Scripture, we start by blaming someone else, instead of the person doing the transgressing? I don’t disagree that men could be doing things to change the situation in these cases, but they are not the ones pushing women to fill these roles against their wills. And even if they were the… Read more »
I find this a really interesting issue because, while I don’t tend to read the kind of book under discussion, I’ve often come across claims on discernment blogs that such and such a writer is heretical. A Catholic who writes a book explicating scripture (or explaining Catholic faith and morals) is supposed to have it approved by his or her local bishop before publication to ensure that it contains nothing objectionable. If she doesn’t, it won’t bear the Imprimatur stamp and no Catholic church, educational institution, or book store is supposed to sell it. A truly faithful Catholic will refuse… Read more »
Jill, for what it is worth, my impression is that Pastor Wilson’s objection to Miller’s book is not primarily for it having a different theological perspective (there are plenty of other targets were this his aim). Rather, it seems he is objecting to her apparent habit of attacking him for beliefs that he does not actually hold. Instead of criticizing his actual beliefs, it seems to him she exaggerates or to some extent misrepresents his beliefs. In one article I read recently, I can’t remember which, I seem to recall Pastor Wilson expressing that he would feel abhorrence toward a… Read more »
True enough: rebellious is certainly a sin that can describes women. On the other hand, we need to leave open the desperate times, desperate measures situation. Abigail and Deborah are in the Bible, too, and if not normative, it goes too far to say their behavior was sinful.
They absolute aren’t normative or ideal, as the Deborah account makes clear.
“I wonder why it is only in this subject that when someone transgresses the clear teaching of Scripture, we start by blaming someone else, instead of the person doing the transgressing?”
Genesis: Eve ate the apple first, but the Lord came after Adam for his neglect of duty.
kyriosity,
I find this response confusing. You know full well that God followed that up by directly cursing Eve. God tracked them both down, gave them grace in the form of clothing, and then cursed them for their role in the sin.
Your example does not answer my concern.
Eve ate the apple first, but God comes after Adam first, and it is in Adam that all die.
Or, God addressed the chain of culprits from end to beginning, not stopping with Eve. That much we are able to observe without risk of reading into it.
BJ, I think of it in this manner: if a man lusts after a scantily clad woman, who is culpable for his sin? The man who does the lusting or the woman who provides the easy opportunity for lust? I think the answer is “yes.”
Likewise, if a woman assumes authority due to a man’s abdication, who is culpable for her sin?
Absolutely. But the frustration in today’s church is that it’s super easy and common to bash those “weak men who refuse to step up” or “the icky guys who have problems with lust” but place no responsibility on the women in your scenarios.
As others have pointed out, doing this is legitimate so the problem might be with it being the “only subject” in which we do this, not the fact that we do this. But I’d also push back against it being the only case where we do this. An example that comes quickly to mind is envy. Very often, when we address envy, we will acknowledge that someone else’s materialism, or at least insensitivity to how they talk about their own privileges, plays a role. In a case where a person is depressed or discourage, we can be quick to point… Read more »
-BJ- wrote: I wonder why it is only in this subject that when someone transgresses the clear teaching of Scripture, we start by blaming someone else, instead of the person doing the transgressing? Let’s not miss the scope of my comment. Some of the examples of women in authority that I was alluding to are not transgressions of Scripture at all. Deborah has already been mentioned. It doesn’t mean that her case should be considered normative, especially if her rule was actually an indictment of some kind on the men (we could talk about the biblical evidence for that). I… Read more »
“I wonder why it is only in this subject that when someone transgresses the clear teaching of Scripture, we start by blaming someone else, instead of the person doing the transgressing?” Because the Bible does. The Bible doesn’t EXCUSE women who overstep their boundaries, but it does hold the men just as responsible. Consider, for instance, the Fall. Eve ate first. But the Bible doesn’t tell us that their eyes were opened until after ADAM ate. Adam was the one God first confronted. And throughout Scripture we hear that “through one MAN sin entered the world.” When women are knowingly… Read more »
Perhaps someone from Doug’s church could answer this for me, since he did not. Does Christ Church have women teaching women’s Bible studies or small groups? Does the church have couples leading any teaching ministry?
What about public reading of Scripture or public prayers?
Women teaching women, yes. Women teaching men or mixed groups, no. Couples teaching mixed groups, no. Women reading Scripture or leading prayer in worship, no.
Thank you.
Well-done, Pastor Wilson! Incisive and witty. And lest anyone should be tempted to think that you’re just being petty because Miller singled you out in her book…I independently noted many of the same issues: https://titus2homemaker.com/examining-beyond-authority-and-submission-part-3/
Nice to see you here, Rachel.