Pepsi logo looks like the Obama logo–communist soda, that’s what it is! (:
Beautiful take on Chesterton, Tolkien, Lewis. I concur.
mg
10 years ago
Pastor Doug, I’m afraid I was left with a lot of questions about exactly what you were claiming: What if the original question were reworded along these lines: Can someone who does not believe in salvation by faith alone be saved by faith alone? Can someone who is resting in Christ’s work + his own work be saved by Christ’s work? Are you saying that the inability to score 100% on a justification quiz means that we are all to some degree resting on “Christ’s work plus”, regardless of what we affirm? Or are you saying that regardless of the… Read more »
MG, you asked: What if the original question were reworded along these lines: Can someone who does not believe in salvation by faith alone be saved by faith alone? Can someone who is resting in Christ’s work + his own work be saved by Christ’s work? I would answer that someone could be saved by faith alone without understanding rightly or articulating it correctly. I would say that someone who actually is resting in his own virtue, to whatever extent, is lost. But someone can be muddled on the point and claim to rest where he is in fact not… Read more »
rorwal
10 years ago
What about Galatians, where Paul says that those holding to another “gospel” are anathema, that Christ is of no benefit to them — and this is the “gospel” of faith-plus-works? The “Score 100% on a doctrinal exam in heaven” argument doesn’t deal with the real question. The real question is, if Chesteron and Tolkein believe the Roman gospel that says we have faith and grace, yes, but we are continually justified before God based on our works, and without our works no one of us will be justified (Trent’s language on justification calls works the cause, and not merely the… Read more »
I found the last part a little interesting in that God can use pagans to edify us. As Lewis said Christianity is 100% true and Paganism 100% false was incorrect (and turned him away from Christ as a child). So good can come from those who are not saved in God’s greater scheme (I am aware that rejection of Christ tends one towards accepting falsehood). I think the Austrians are more correct in their economic theory than the Keynesians and have good to teach us though I am not ware that they were saved. mg, I am aware Doug has… Read more »
Eric Stampher
10 years ago
And while zygotes have a terrible time even grasping the concept of faith, can still be full of it!
Eric Stampher
10 years ago
About your candidate for ministry:
Ain’t seeing his interest in actually pastoring almost as important as his having his doctrine down pat?
I talk to many a “pastor” who wants to cloister up and study 20 hours a week, then fly up to the pulpit and preach an hour a week, and sometimes even reach out to the flock directly and personally for 20 minutes a week.
That’s pastoring?
jay niemeyer
10 years ago
This was outstanding! Thank you. “Because the Protestants are right, Catholics can be saved.”
The clear answer to Darren’s false dichotomy: Diet Dr Pepper.
mg
10 years ago
Pastor Doug,
Thanks for taking the time to respond — that was helpful.
Barnabas
10 years ago
If Old Testament saints can be saved by faith then certainly Catholics can.
Jane Dunsworth
10 years ago
Valerie, Dr. Pepper is a different category from Coke and Pepsi. That’s like answering “Catholic or Protestant?” with “Republican!”
And diet ought not even to be named among us.
jigawatt
10 years ago
Where I come from, it doesn’t matter if you’re drinking a Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, whatever. If it’s non-alcoholic, sugary (real or fake) and carbonated, you’re drinking a coke.
Johnny
10 years ago
This is one important lesson I learned (mostly) from Pastor Wilson. It applies to the Calvinist/Arminian debate as well. If what we believe is true, then we can cut our brethren who believe otherwise some slack.
David Smith
10 years ago
Brilliant! Thanks, Pastor Wilson! We in the (Universal) Church come to Christ along different paths, each with its own obstacles, pitfalls, etc. The bottom line, though, is the ultimate location of my growing and developing faith. But the fact that my faith is growing and developing presupposes that there are elements of error and immaturity (heresy!); so why indeed, while holding as best I can to the truth I know, can’t I cut my Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Arminian, etc., brethren some slack? Furthermore, give any of our Calvinist churches the same amount of time the Catholics have had to add… Read more »
Matthew Paul Abel
10 years ago
Rorwal- I think it was already addressed: sound doctrine does not save a person. If we all had to understand and articulate a sound doctrine of the justification (not a perfect articulation) – much less then go live it consistently… well, God help us all. Actually, He did just that and more. This is why a poor understanding and articulation of justification and then an inconsistent life from a Calvinist or a Catholic does keep either from redemption. (Raised hand…) Pastor Wilson, will you please check my work? If it’s bad, then rorwal and I both need to hear the… Read more »
Matthew Paul Abel
10 years ago
Hah! Should’ve indeed checked my own work:
“…does NOT keep…”
Like I said, good thing we’re not judged on our inarticulations.
Jane Dunsworth
10 years ago
Rorwal, I stand even more than Matthew in need of having my work checked, but here’s my shorthand way of thinking about the problem you raise: A person can have faith in the right thing, with a wrong understanding of how that faith works, what it accomplishes, and what else may be going on at the same time. The Catholic may believe that “works are necessary for salvation” as an accurate description of how the gospel works, but if he believes that those works are accessed and perfected by faith in Christ, and his faith is indeed in Christ to… Read more »
Pepsi logo looks like the Obama logo–communist soda, that’s what it is! (:
Beautiful take on Chesterton, Tolkien, Lewis. I concur.
Pastor Doug, I’m afraid I was left with a lot of questions about exactly what you were claiming: What if the original question were reworded along these lines: Can someone who does not believe in salvation by faith alone be saved by faith alone? Can someone who is resting in Christ’s work + his own work be saved by Christ’s work? Are you saying that the inability to score 100% on a justification quiz means that we are all to some degree resting on “Christ’s work plus”, regardless of what we affirm? Or are you saying that regardless of the… Read more »
MG, you asked: What if the original question were reworded along these lines: Can someone who does not believe in salvation by faith alone be saved by faith alone? Can someone who is resting in Christ’s work + his own work be saved by Christ’s work? I would answer that someone could be saved by faith alone without understanding rightly or articulating it correctly. I would say that someone who actually is resting in his own virtue, to whatever extent, is lost. But someone can be muddled on the point and claim to rest where he is in fact not… Read more »
What about Galatians, where Paul says that those holding to another “gospel” are anathema, that Christ is of no benefit to them — and this is the “gospel” of faith-plus-works? The “Score 100% on a doctrinal exam in heaven” argument doesn’t deal with the real question. The real question is, if Chesteron and Tolkein believe the Roman gospel that says we have faith and grace, yes, but we are continually justified before God based on our works, and without our works no one of us will be justified (Trent’s language on justification calls works the cause, and not merely the… Read more »
I found the last part a little interesting in that God can use pagans to edify us. As Lewis said Christianity is 100% true and Paganism 100% false was incorrect (and turned him away from Christ as a child). So good can come from those who are not saved in God’s greater scheme (I am aware that rejection of Christ tends one towards accepting falsehood). I think the Austrians are more correct in their economic theory than the Keynesians and have good to teach us though I am not ware that they were saved. mg, I am aware Doug has… Read more »
And while zygotes have a terrible time even grasping the concept of faith, can still be full of it!
About your candidate for ministry:
Ain’t seeing his interest in actually pastoring almost as important as his having his doctrine down pat?
I talk to many a “pastor” who wants to cloister up and study 20 hours a week, then fly up to the pulpit and preach an hour a week, and sometimes even reach out to the flock directly and personally for 20 minutes a week.
That’s pastoring?
This was outstanding! Thank you. “Because the Protestants are right, Catholics can be saved.”
Eric, it may be one of these necessary but not sufficient qualities?
The clear answer to Darren’s false dichotomy: Diet Dr Pepper.
Pastor Doug,
Thanks for taking the time to respond — that was helpful.
If Old Testament saints can be saved by faith then certainly Catholics can.
Valerie, Dr. Pepper is a different category from Coke and Pepsi. That’s like answering “Catholic or Protestant?” with “Republican!”
And diet ought not even to be named among us.
Where I come from, it doesn’t matter if you’re drinking a Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, whatever. If it’s non-alcoholic, sugary (real or fake) and carbonated, you’re drinking a coke.
This is one important lesson I learned (mostly) from Pastor Wilson. It applies to the Calvinist/Arminian debate as well. If what we believe is true, then we can cut our brethren who believe otherwise some slack.
Brilliant! Thanks, Pastor Wilson! We in the (Universal) Church come to Christ along different paths, each with its own obstacles, pitfalls, etc. The bottom line, though, is the ultimate location of my growing and developing faith. But the fact that my faith is growing and developing presupposes that there are elements of error and immaturity (heresy!); so why indeed, while holding as best I can to the truth I know, can’t I cut my Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Arminian, etc., brethren some slack? Furthermore, give any of our Calvinist churches the same amount of time the Catholics have had to add… Read more »
Rorwal- I think it was already addressed: sound doctrine does not save a person. If we all had to understand and articulate a sound doctrine of the justification (not a perfect articulation) – much less then go live it consistently… well, God help us all. Actually, He did just that and more. This is why a poor understanding and articulation of justification and then an inconsistent life from a Calvinist or a Catholic does keep either from redemption. (Raised hand…) Pastor Wilson, will you please check my work? If it’s bad, then rorwal and I both need to hear the… Read more »
Hah! Should’ve indeed checked my own work:
“…does NOT keep…”
Like I said, good thing we’re not judged on our inarticulations.
Rorwal, I stand even more than Matthew in need of having my work checked, but here’s my shorthand way of thinking about the problem you raise: A person can have faith in the right thing, with a wrong understanding of how that faith works, what it accomplishes, and what else may be going on at the same time. The Catholic may believe that “works are necessary for salvation” as an accurate description of how the gospel works, but if he believes that those works are accessed and perfected by faith in Christ, and his faith is indeed in Christ to… Read more »