I need to expand a bit on one of the things I said in my sermon to the 5 sexual non-Euclideans on the Supreme Court. What I said was this:
“What your Court has actually done in settling this farrago of nonsense upon us is to place three options before us. First, either same sex unions will once again be rejected by all fifty states, with homosexuality therefore returning to the closet, or second, your decision will stand in all fifty states, and the faithful church in America will go off grid and underground in various ways, with all that implies, or third, the Union will come apart. From reading your opinion, you plainly do not know what you are doing or what you have done. When Scripture tells us that a throne is established by righteousness, it is the high end of folly to attempt to establish anything on the alternative foundation of wicked unrighteousness. “It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: For the throne is established by righteousness” (Prov. 16:12).
What I want to do here is point out that the first option seems like a miracle of reversal, unlikely in the extreme. And the second option seems unlikely to me also, for various reasons that are tied in with my view that the third option is already happening. Not only is it happening, it is a process that is already well-advanced. So you don’t have to go back up and count, that third option is that the Union is coming apart. While this is not the end of the world, we are still confronted with Eliot’s alternative concerning it — bang or whimper?
When something ends in a whimper, this is just another way of saying that can happen without anyone really noticing.
In a fallen world, any corporate body maintains its health and integrity through its ability to fight off infection and disease. In short, bodies need immune systems. This is true of families, it is true of churches, it is true of nations. When an alien principle comes in, the “body” can either fight it off or be unable to fight it off. Consequently, any body without a functioning immune system has AIDS. That body does not die of AIDS — it dies of whatever it was that it could not fight off.
By way of illustration, consider this PCA church in Portland, which has virtually no immune system at all. This statement is admittedly on the high end of silly, but the question posed by it is “what happens now?” If a PCA church can actually talk as if sodomy is adiaphora, such that we can all leave these “political” differences at the church door and come in to worship Jesus together, then obviously that congregation is sunk. But what happens in the broader PCA? Is the Northwest Presbytery of the PCA sunk also? Depends. If charges are brought, and Intown is frogmarched to the curb, then the PCA still has an immune system and good on them. But if nothing happens, or if the whole thing gets buried under a pile of two-kingdom blather, then the PCA is sunk also.
One commenter on Facebook pointed out that it did not seem coincidental to him that this is occurring in the same presbytery that tried Peter Leithart for heresy a couple of times. We shall see, but I think that it might be more telling that it is the presbytery that failed to convict him. I am not saying anything about the merits of the Leithart case, obviously, but it is worth noting that it is at least possible he was exonerated because this is a body that would be reluctant to discipline anybody for anything. This new situation should shed a good bit of light on that. Presbyteries that discipline will sometimes discipline the wrong guy, and presbyteries that won’t discipline will sometimes exonerate the right guy. Because this is so confusing the Lord will sometimes give us a PCA church in Portland that tries to handle sexual perversion as though it were a tomayto/tomahto thing. In short, if the Northwest Presbytery acts promptly on this, then the Leithart acquittal has some meaning. If they float off down the rainbow river, then the Leithart exoneration has a cloud over it.
What about nations? More particularly, what about ours?
Let me try to set up an analogy. Picture a family with twelve kids. The parents are exhausted and have plain given up trying to discipline the kids, and the task of trying to maintain some kind of moral order falls to the older kids, who can still remember a time when the family was more structured than it is now. The older kids try to obey their parents because they can see what would happen if everybody quit, but taking one thing with another what we’re seeing is ever increasing bedlam.
The older kids in this illustration are those conservative citizens of the United States who believe that the fundamentals are still basically intact, and we are just one or two good elections away from turning things back around. This is why they are hesitant to try the lesser magistrate option. They believe that if they successfully told the federal government that abortion was now going to be illegal in Texas, let us say, or that two dudes will be able to marry in Oklahoma when pigs fly, then some really bad consequences would descend upon us. The whole thing would fall apart, and that would be worse than whatever bad laws are being imposed on us. In other words, same sex mirage must be tolerated, or abortion, or else “America gets it.”
In other words, hostage taking works — until somebody figures out that the hostage is already dead.
What would happen, we reason, if the central government speaks and absolutely no one listens? We think that this would be unimaginable. We imagine it would be unthinkable. I hate to break it to you, but we are already almost there. The problem is that the successful examples thus far are all coming from the irresponsible and disobedient younger kids, with the older kids still trying to hold the family together. But what will happen when the older kids throw it in?
Try this thought experiment. A mid-sized city in eastern Washington has a unique city council election and they find themselves with a strong majority of hard line conservatives. The same thing happens in the two surrounding counties. They all take counsel together and pass an ordinance that will simply shut down the one abortion clinic, and ten minutes later they pass an ordinance that will prohibit any of the county clerks from issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples. With me so far?
Now the uproar will be considerable. The younger disobedient and insolent children will charge the older children with their failure to honor the rules of the household. After all, they will say, “we must obey father and mother,” come what may. Rule of law, rule of law!
Right. The city concerned already has twelve marijuana shops, in flat defiance of federal law. The city concerned is one of the over two hundred sanctuary cites around the United States, solemnly dedicated to a refusal to cooperate with the feds on immigration law. Whatever legal theory allows lesser magistrates to ignore Law A may certainly be employed to allow them to ignore Law B. Or so it would seem.
One last thought, a thought that will have to be developed further I know. There is more of a likelihood that the feds would step in to enforce their abortion laws or homosexual laws because defiance of these laws would be to return us to a center that wants to hold. What our ruling elites are not trying to do is govern the United States — what they are trying to do is orchestrate and manage its decline. They are pursuing the whimpering end. The citizenry might notice a bang.
In homosexual circles, bugchasing is when men pursue sexual partners with HIV so that they might contract it themselves (or run the risk of contracting it). Ruling elites, in both church and state, who refuse to discipline in terms of scriptural and/or natural law are simply that. Bugchasers.
The Bible teaches of a fourth option: conquest. That is what It looks like the National leaders in Washington and Mexico City are colluding to push for.
Reformation or collapse (Geneva or Sodom). Can’t see it changing any other way.
Noting to see here citizen…move along.
“There is more of a likelihood that the feds would step in to enforce their abortion laws or homosexual laws because defiance of these laws would be to return us to a center that wants to hold.” You are right, this is a key issue and needs to be explored more thoroughly. There has been much discussion of late on one response to the increasing persecution of the Church, Rod Dreher’s Benedict Option (please see an excellent series of podcasts the Eric Metaxas did with him late last week on this topic). Pastor Wilson, may I suggest you refer to… Read more »
Re. “Bonhoeffer Option,” we must distinguish two types. The Sovereign God of the universe overruled his involvement in option #1 (direct rebellion against an evil regime) in favor of option #2: a protracted walk through winning by losing, ending in his martyrdom. Our God doesn’t deal in counter-factuals, but I’d submit that Christians might not be reading his books nearly so avidly had option #1 succeeded. Re. “…feds would step in…”: exactly. The abortion/gay-mirage folks covet this for the media “bounce,” e.g., a twisted James Meredith moment, much has happened in regards to protests at abortion clinics. (Not saying they’re… Read more »
I have often thought about what would happen if the lesser magistrates (and CEOs of companies) simply colluded to ignore obvious over-reaches by the Federal government. The line goes something like this, “They can’t put us ALL in jail, can they?” But that requires ALL to be on the same page of thumbing our collective noses at SCOTUS rulings, EPA rulings, IRS rulings, Obamacare, and everything else that reeks of judicial filth. Little pockets of righteous resistance might pop up in eastern Washington or even most of Oklahoma (Lord bless the Okies!) but that doesn’t mean the full weight of… Read more »
If a line is to be drawn it might not be over the current big issues. It might be over a “last straw” issue some time later when it is all but too late. Take the appeasement of Hitler by the Allies as an example.
bugchasing is actually a word….my brain is going to hurt for the rest of the afternoon.
What? You must have quite the fortitude of mind and soul for your brain to only be hurting just now…. and only for the rest of the afternoon. Yeah, I’m jealous.
:D
I had no idea what bugchasing was, pastor. That last line in your post turned my stomach.
Someone (Job) had referred to how other countries regard the SS”M” issue. From that, I found this. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/un-passes-unprecedented-pro-family-resolution-outraging-sexual-radicals How does this relate to the post? I’m not sure. Just something to get our minds off of bugs and such. One more: http://www.onenewsnow.com/church/2015/07/12/dnc-chair-churches-have-more-rights-than-businesses “You shouldn’t be able to turn people away based on who they are,” the DNC chair asserted. “It’s important that no matter who you are, who you love, what the color of your skin is, what your national origin is, we’re a nation of laws… in this country, we do not allow people to discriminate and that’s —… Read more »
Thanks brother for speaking for this country preacher.Dave
The problem with discipline is that the people have to be on board with it. And if they weren’t already on board about 40 years ago, it’s fairly likely they won’t get on board now that serious head-banging is ahead.
The Union was about to come apart in the 1850s. It survived then, despite the best efforts of some. See, that was a real crisis, because slavery wasn’t just some culture war bullshit like gay marriage. What will happen is that some people who get their jollies from moaning and complaining will do so, and otherwise everything will go along as normal. Collapse remains an extremist fantasy.
Collapse is an inevitability. The only question is when.
Or so right wingers have been saying for, what, 50 years?
Do you think 50 years is a long time?
Well, post Hart-Celler it probably is.
You do realize that you are the curmudgeon here, right?
You basically come here to mutter to yourself, and to tell us to get off, er, our lawn.
No I come here for the entertainment, and it always provides.
Or, from another perspective, “The Union” didn’t yet exist in the 1850s, and “The united States” collapsed into “The United States”. How many people who lived through “the fall of Rome” knew it? Collapse is typically identified in hindsight.
Will Greece be able to secede, or will they collapse into the United States of Europe?
Or will Germany just buy them up piece by piece, down the slippery slope until they are no longer Greek but German.
Collapse is always an extreamist fantasy til it happens.
It’s an extremist fantasy that our society will meet the same fate as every one that has preceded it?
Who’s got the offbeat idea here?
There’s good news and bad news. The good news is that Douglas Laycock, an expert on the 1st Amendment and religious liberty, says that it’s going to be many years before the government starts taking tax exemptions away from Christian colleges that ban same-sex dating and marriage. The bad news? Well, basically, the reason they won’t do it for a while is because they won’t have to. Because if the government just waits long enough, most schools will change their stance voluntarily. He says that if the government waits several years, it won’t be risking a public relations nightmare, and… Read more »
The BJU case is actually more instructive than many Christians realize. Historically, BJU did NOT forbid interracial dating. BJU got sued by an Asian family for permitting a white guy to date their daughter, so in response to a civil suit, they changed the policy from right to wrong. Next time a court orders a Christian institution to adjust its morals to suit the momentary whims of a judge, we should all reflect on BJU. If you’re going to get your tail kicked either way, you should at least enjoy the consolation of being right.
RC Sproul, Sr. just let a squishy PCA pastor use TableTalk magazine to inform Christians that they need to “wrestle with the biblical text” when it comes to those pesky verses on homosexuality and other sexual topics. http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/05/tabletalk-gives-biblical-sexuality-scott-sauls As once-taboo expressions of sexuality become mainstream, and as colleagues, friends, and even family members share news of a pending “no fault” divorce or a same-sex or cohabitating heterosexual relationship, more and more Christians—especially when friendships and family ties hang in the balance—feel an urgency to sympathize instead of condemn, to support instead of separate, to affirm instead of deny. And yet,… Read more »
And … you want that?
Or you just want to feel like you are on the “winning” side?
Who said I want it?
Who said I’m on either side?
I’m just telling you what’s going to happen.
“Who said I’m either side?”
Bob Dylan
“Side? I’m not altogether on anybodys side, because nobody is altogether on my side” – Treebeard
“My sides are killing me!”
Anonymous
Cassandra?
“If it comes to that, which is the right side? How do we know that the
fauns are in the right and the Queen (yes, I know we’ve been told she’s a witch) is in the wrong? We don’t really know anything about either.”
Edmund of Narnia fame
I think the bayly brothers are judging his writing pretty harshly. Saying “we are left to wrestle with the text” does not mean that the text is unclear or any of the other things they are suggesting. If our hearts are inclined to go along with the culture, than our natural tendency is to “wrestle” with a text that opposes culture… especially when it is clear.
Would it be safe to say that because the church hasn’t done it’s job disciplining its membership as needed that God will use persecution to separate the wheat from the chaff?
Bugchasers? Great. As a longtime member of the exterminating profession, I now have another term of derision to deal with. Oh well, Led Zeppelin was right “… sometimes words have two meanings.”
I believe that nullification by lesser magistrates would already be happening on a much much broader scale, if it weren’t for the States’ dependency on so much Federal funding of various socialist programs. The Federal government has usurped the Constitutionally reserved liberties of the States by turning them each into dependents, using money created out of thin air. They are working on turning all families into dependents now. Buying cooperation is the new American way. This works, until it doesn’t.
katecho, did you read my link on parallel societies? What were your thoughts? Its in comments to Brief Sexual Catechism 2.0 due to my poor blog etiquette.
There are some elements that might be useful if our goal is to “come out of” the world, and if we understand that what we are really coming out of is the worldview and its influences, not the places and communities in which we live and move. The whole world belongs to God, and the meek will inherit it. We need to come out from under the world, so that we can then come into the world to engage it, so to speak. However, it seems that Mark Citadel is advocating a kind of Christian ghetto, and a reaction to… Read more »
I think that there are instances of Christian exit that are appropriate. The Church has only survived in the Middle East through just the sort of garrisoned ghetto described. We are also taught that the Puritans should be admired for exit to the new world where they had freedom of religion. Is that time now? I don’t know. There are events afoot that haven’t been seen since the worst period of the Roman empire. I think that churches could be closed for opposing homosexuality and Christians driven out of employment and that could happen in the next 10 years. It… Read more »
Do you have an opinion as to which state, if any, remains the most free?
This is where you draw the line? This is where the union falls apart? I mean sure, two men copulating isn’t my idea of a Sunday brunch, but is it the end? I just read an article about a rural Pakistani court that ordered a 12 year old girl gang raped in retrabution for a family feud. Or in Ethiopia where it is common practice to rape a girl who’s father won’t permit you to marry because then she would been deemed “worthless”. And this, as Christians, is where you pick your battle? There is so much cruelty and suffering… Read more »
Doug, Being in the PCA myself, I’d be interested in hearing from you specifically on what grounds this minister would be brought up on charges. After my first reading, I thought that he was, as you say, talking “as if sodomy is adiaphora” – which would clearly be grounds for charges. However, I went back and read it again, and it does not appear he actually says that (whether he actually believes that is another matter). He mainly seems to be gearing the post around responses to the civil decision rather than homosexual behavior. I don’t think his post is… Read more »
it takes both House of the Congress and a Republican president to reverse the supreme court
A bit late to notice this post, but as I was recently exploring churches to visit in Portland, I observe that the PCA church referenced above has since left the PCA and is now part of the RCA. I can’t speak to howmormwhy this came about, but just passing in the observation.