On Defending the Ghastly

The War Between the States would have ended a lot sooner if Meade had pursued Lee after Gettysburg. Ahithophel hanged himself because his counsel of pursuit of David by Absalom was rejected (2 Sam. 17:1-2). Gideon prevailed in his great battle with Midian because he honored the principle of pursuit (Judg. 8:4). Pursuit is crucial; follow through is essential.

We have every reason to believe that the Center for Medical Progress is on top of this. The fact that they obtained the sting videos they did is beyond praise, and thus far they are dropping their grenades, two so far, with exquisite timing. Word has it that more are coming. We have every reason to believe that CMP understands the need for continued pressure and pursuit.

Come out with your hands up!
Come out with your hands up!

At the same time, what they are doing will not work unless the pro-life public joins in the pursuit. That is what has made this so explosive so far, and if we continue to respond as we have been doing it will remain explosive. Without such pursuit, it will not.

When Congress reconvenes this fall, we will no doubt have a pitched battle over federal funding for Planned Parenthood. This is as it should be, and a lot of money for PP is at stake. Compared to a military campaign, that battle will be the equivalent of besieging the capital city. But like a capital city, the walls there are thick and well-reinforced. Because we are ostensibly a democracy, that fortress is configured to look like it is open to your input. But for the most part, whenever an uproar starts, they are prepared to withstand it. They do withstand most of them. Most “marches on Washington” end, everybody goes home, and the Beltway Natives go back to being themselves. But sometimes real changes do happen. We want this to be one of those times.

So the principal of pursuit needs to be observed before the ultimate political battle is joined. Between now and then, we need to go after certain designated soft targets that are directly related to all this. Does your corporation give money to Planned Parenthood? In the light of these videos, you are certainly in a position to ask why. So why not ask why?

The moment is right, and the momentum is good. Nobody wants to defend what is going on in those videos. Look at the candidates for the Democratic nomination — that’s a crew that is willing to defend truckloads of indefensible things, and on this subject all of them have their heads down to study patterns in the carpet. And so the question must constantly be posed – do you want to support what is going on in those videos? The only possible answers are, “no, we should quit supporting them,” or “yes, we should support them.” But nobody wants to say “yes, we should support them.” So ask the hard questions that require one response or the other.

In the political battle over homosexual rights, this is what the homosexualists were doing in their attack on the Boy Scouts. And even though the Boy Scouts didn’t cave immediately, the pressure they were able to apply to them was one of the things they could point to as representing the so-called “sea change” in public opinion as they applied their pressure to those politicians disguised as Supreme Court justices.

Fortress Washington is ready for us, in other words. There are many entities, corporations, and philanthropic organizations that are not nearly as ready. I suggest we start with them, and one name that comes to mind is United Way.

Every United Way chapter, along with the national organization, needs to be repeatedly asked a simple question: “In the light of the recent videos that reveal that PP traffics in baby parts, and the upcoming congressional hearings, is the United Way currently willing to discontinue funding PP?” United Way needs to be made to decide whether they will stand with PP, or step away from them. Not to decide just to decide. If they step away, mission accomplished, and we have increased pressure on Congress. If they do not step away, then the hashtags start writing themselves. #UnitedWayHelpsPP #PPSellsBabyParts

United Way will want to stick with her talking point on this, which is that they don’t provide any money for abortion services per se. That was a response that used to work kinda. But now the question needs to be re-framed, and we need to ask, “Yes, but you do give money to Planned Parenthood itself, which has now been revealed to be a corrupt, dishonest, and ghastly organization. Do you intend to continue raising funds to give to them?” Yes or no?

And this last point cannot be emphasized enough. Social media is one of the essential tools for conducting a modern political pursuit; it is one of the crucial weapons in our armory. Moreover, it is completely within our control. You have a computer, right? Everything you can lay your hands on needs to be thrown into this effort – blog posts, memes, hashtags, tweets, and so on.

And even if you feel stymied because you don’t think you are clever enough to come up with those sorts of things, your role is still essential. You have a cursor, right? You can still click, right? Share the heck out of everything you see come across your screen.

Here is a link to help you find your local United Way representative.

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David
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David

“. . . if Meade had pursued Lee after Gettysburg.”

GloriouslyIrrelevant
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GloriouslyIrrelevant

or “… if McClellan had pursued Lee after Antietam.” Either way, the nit has been picked

SgtPOG
Guest
SgtPOG

If the White House had been sacked and burned…

timothy
Guest
timothy

This is a dual-comment. I posted it in Baby Corpse Wholesalers a few minutes before Pastor Wilson published this post. Via moelane at http://moelane.com/2015/07/22/… is this list of 41 companies that directly finance PP. Adobe American Cancer Society American Express AT&T Avon Bank of America Bath & Body Works Ben & Jerry’s Clorox Coca-Cola Converse Deutsche Bank Dockers Energizer Expedia ExxonMobil Fannie Mae Ford Groupon Intuit Johnson & Johnson La Senza Levi Strauss Liberty Mutual Macy’s March of Dimes Microsoft Morgan Stanley Nike Oracle PepsiCo Pfizer Progressive Starbucks Susan G. Komen Tostitos Unilever United Way Verizon Wells Fargo Xerox Vox… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

Well, now, that’s just ridiculous. I mean, I can’t just not buy, well, you know, I’ve got to have my, um, did you say baby parts? Well, see, it’s just that I need, oh, gosh, surely we can’t all just quit using, uh, was that profiting from the murder of innocents? I’d have to stay home and never go anywhere fun, or do anything or, well, you know, um, you mean it’s my purchasing freedom or the babies? Sheesh… it’s hard being an American. Such difficult choices to make.

ArwenB
Guest
ArwenB

It’s not even a matter of “not buying” from these companies. Not yet, at any rate.

All one has to do is email their PR people and ask if (or why) the company supports the killing and dismemberment of unborn human children, whose parts are subsequently sold.

Tim Bushong
Guest
Tim Bushong

The correct link to the Vox post is this:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/07/ppgate.html

Just doin’ my part…

timothy
Guest
timothy

fixed, thx.

Travis Kurtz
Guest
Travis Kurtz

Vox Day and Douglas Wilson are on the same page with social issues. Vox Day is writing a book called “Social Justice Warriors Always Lie” Wilson is putting out “Stonewall”. Both today put out a list in fighting back. They need to do something together.

Tom
Guest
Tom

(Waggles hand) Vox has a whole load of issues that Wilson doesn’t have, and I’d prefer to avoid the two being associated, for Wilson’s sake.
Vox Day has some good ideas, but he’s also everything Rachel Held Evans says Wilson is.

SgtPOG
Guest
SgtPOG

Beale/Day is an Open Theist that ridicules Calvinism. Ally with him if you will, in the name of life and Christ, but know his theology, just in case.

Tom
Guest
Tom

He’s got a whole slewload of other issues as well. I do not advocate for any pastor to ally himself with the man.

Ian Miller
Member

Beale is a lot like Donald Trump – he riles up the right people and expresses things that are truly frustrating about the structures of society, but he also is kind of a clown. And a malicious one.

timothy
Guest
timothy

I like both him and you. All three of humans-“I”, “him” , “you” –are flawed human beings that The Lord has to work with and has chosen to work through. Pastor Wilson’s choice is his own; mine is my own, I like Vox and his work and his faith. He is an example of a brave christian voice in this world. That he does not fit the mold of the 501c3 Church Inc. crowd (not calling you that, btw, Pastor Wilson) is a plus in my book and possibly a sign that God is frustrated with the mega-church pansy-boys in… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

I don’t think either of these men would want to ally with the other but that doesn’t mean that we can’t learn anything from Vox. In his small sphere of influence he has several actual wins against the left under his belt and that’s a very rare thing. He’s not nice but then we know that “nice” men protest weakly and then capitulate.

Ian Miller
Member

I appreciate the frustrations that lead to many flocking to voices like Beale. I share those frustrations. I also agree that much of the refuse hurled about at him is unjust and merely bandwagoning onto a convenient target. However, my problems with Beale spring from actually reading what he has to say, and I simply cannot reconcile his comments about race and his choice of methodology (more destructive than anything else) with a serious Christian witness. I agree that it is shameful that other than Doug and a scattered handful of others, the mainstream Christian church hasn’t provided any voices… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

I don’t know how the Christian Church would provide a voice like Beale’s while also meeting your standard for acceptable discourse. There are obviously some real issues with race but the only analysis that fits the Overton Window is a Marxist analysis and a near superstitious belief in the power of white racism. The citizenry are cowed on race like on no other issue to the extent that any rational discussion is forbidden. That’s an awfully big and effective hammer so then every issue is made a racial issue. Its also not at all clear to me that the church… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

interesting read. I have it bookmarked. thx.

timothy
Guest
timothy

I politely disagree. Because of his vanguard actions into the culture, Vox is treading where Jesus did among the ‘not respectable’ crowd. I see the fruits of this work in the changed and changing minds and an openness to the Gospel. He is effective at leveraging controversial (and false) secular dogmas into a witness for Christ. Where the 501c3 Church says, “come on in!” the (Barnabas, help me out here…) [insert apt prefix here] Church goes to where the fields are white for harvest. He is quite comfortable there and that is an effective witness in itself; Christ can go… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

No, they do not, unless it is Doug showing Beale the error of his ways. I agree completely with Tom’s assessment.

A. James
Member

I’m not familiar with Beale/Vox, and I must say by some that are promoting him, I have no desire to learn more. However, to contrast what has been said, would you be willing to give a few bullet points of your biggest concerns for those of us who just want general potential “pros/cons” (as opposed to debate) in our minds about it?

Ian Miller
Member

(These are, of course, my own interpretation): Cons: Beale tends to espouse a weird blend of evolutionary race theory and Biblical interpretation that is very similar to kinism. He focuses on very personal attacks, fixating on people who have directly opposed him. He is more concerned to destroy those who oppose him than build up those who agree with him (seen currently in the way he’s approaching the Hugo Awards). Based on the Alpha Game, he advocates unhealthy relationship patterns, goals, and treatment of men and women (I’d say he’s a chauvinist, but I think that doesn’t do justice to… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

His work on Alpha Game (which I only have a passing familiarity with) has given me ammunition for dealing with a Alpha Christian who is advocating a return to polygyny. i.e. that intellectual work into a subject few pastors will examine in depth has yielded fruit. To rephrase that–it is important to look and understand the trends and thoughts that the culture has such that one can present Christ to that culture using their language, idioms and frame of reference. When, I repeat, when not if, when that pro-polygyny argument goes mainstream, the young men of today’s culture, already versed… Read more »

Tom
Guest
Tom

(Shakes head) One need not muck around with Alpha game nonsense or necromantically reactivated theories on race to deal straightforwardly with the topics of polygyny or attempts to return to racial discrimination based on the IQ gap. Beale’s problem isn’t that he goes into the deep and dark places of the Internet–Beale’s problem is that he agrees with that stuff.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Tom, I disagree. Via delving into these things (and I categorically affirm that most people should not. It takes a strong mind and heart and spirit to view them dispassionately)the Gospel is being advanced in places most Christians should not go. By engaging a ‘notorious’ pick-up-artist with thousands of ‘conquests’ the said man is now reading the Bible with an open mind and wondering what the purpose of life is. (it sure ain’t in bedding women). That is a win for the gospel. full stop. On race, at the genetic level, the science shows that people–all of them God’s… Read more »

Tom
Guest
Tom

I’m glad you’re not endorsing the crazy, although I’m not sure about the racial bit.
But that’s not what I mean.
What I mean is that Vox Day endorses that nonsense.

timothy
Guest
timothy

He respects the underlying theory/model. A model can be put to different uses. Some for good, some for ill. If a model does as it says it will–has predictive value–then it is a good model and should be recognized as such. That is what V has done, seen the value of the model. In my debate with a neo-polygynist, one of his tenets is that the hyper-gamy of women can be utilized to his ends. Just knowing what that is, is paramount for beginning to engage the man. Knowing what that is, entails knowing the model behind it and studying… Read more »

Tom
Guest
Tom

Hypergamy isn’t Alpha Game, though. A disproportionate number of people who use the term are Alpha Gamers, but the basic concept is familiar to anyone who’s heard “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac” (Henry Kissinger).

timothy
Guest
timothy

If anybody has the time, that list could benefit from a listing of twitter handles (example @Clorox is Clorox’s twitter feed) and PR/Marketing email addresses and, if they exist, blog/website/customer service links. Furthermore, “blurbs” to cut-n-paste that express our intent would be helpful for the time constrained. Pastor Wilson, completing that list would be a means to drive traffic to Blog and Mablog as well. If nobody has the time, I will do it. Going will be slow. If somebody does have the time, please notify us. thx. UPDATE: Commenters at Vox’s site are contributing information int he comments, so… Read more »

Luke
Guest
Luke

This is a good idea. Let’s start filling in the list!

1. Adobe – Matching grants through Adobe foundation

http://www.adobe.com/news-room/pr-contacts.html

@adobe

2. American Cancer Society

http://www.cancer.org/aboutus/howwehelpyou/app/contact-us.aspx

@AmericanCancer

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Xerox bailed out yesterday.

A. James
Member

Bailed or? I’ve seen this correction a few places:

“This story has been updated. Xerox was erroneously listed on Planned Parenthood’s website as having been a donor. “We have communicated with Planned Parenthood. They have removed Xerox from this list of companies that match gifts to the organization. It was not correct,” a Xerox representative told The Daily Signal.”

And this shows them supporting lots of interesting stuff (Oberg, etc.) but not PP directly?

Gibbie
Guest
Gibbie

Ford and Xerox are no longer on the list. They contacted PP and asked to have their names removed from the website. 39 companies…

A. James
Member

True, Ford, as Xerox, also indicated they had been erroneously listed in the first place.

Justin Spencer
Guest
Justin Spencer

Say not the Struggle nought Availeth By Arthur Hugh Clough Say not the struggle nought availeth, The labour and the wounds are vain, The enemy faints not, nor faileth, And as things have been they remain. If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars; It may be, in yon smoke concealed, Your comrades chase e’en now the fliers, And, but for you, possess the field. For while the tired waves, vainly breaking Seem here no painful inch to gain, Far back through creeks and inlets making, Came, silent, flooding in, the main. And not by eastern windows only, When daylight… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

Very nice. Thanks for posting.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Now the faith is old and the Devil bold

Exceedingly bold indeed.

And the masses of doubt that are floating about

Would smother a mortal creed.

But we that sit in a sturdy youth

And still can drink strong ale

Let us put it away to infallible truth

That always shall prevail.

And thank the Lord

For the temporal sword

And howling heretics too.

And all good things

Our Christendom brings

But especially barley brew!

The Pelagian Drinking Song – Hilaire Belloc

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

Notably, United Way has this program: http://www.unitedway.org/our-impact/featured-programs/end-human-trafficking

In particular note #6 – “Knowing your slavery footprint.” This rhetoric is just as applicable to our cause.

Perhaps we should begin educating people on their murder/trafficking footprint?

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

In a sense I agree with this. But I’d want to be careful to draw a sort of distinction of sorts between the world’s use of that kind of “footprint” language, and how we as Christians approach activism. The world’s method is to fabricate guilt out of mere consumer association. According to that way of thinking, we supposed to feel guilty and weighed down with our “carbon footprint” or our “slavery footprint,” simply b/c we use gas or travel, or buy things (of course, the carbon footprint shenanigan is problematic for other reasons than just false guilt, but that’s another… Read more »

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

Right – I’m aiming more for the Wilberforce ultimatum “You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know.”

This is about using their tactics and standards, but in order to raise awareness and persuade others to change, not create another means for blaming people for what they hadn’t yet realized.

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

Amen.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Not likely- United Way wants to use the term ‘slave’ for it’s emotional content: people who are trafficked and exploited and used for their labor or their bodies, who are denied civil rights, and do not have legal documentation (If they have documentation it is stolen and their identity is sold). who have no community, no protection of the law. Often they are Christians, often they are refugees from worse places, fleeing starvation, corruption, persecution,… When they are used up, they are discarded. More will be trafficked in to replace them. It is a scheme to collect the meagre commodities… Read more »

Greg Pyne
Guest
Greg Pyne

Pastor Wilson, Behind you a 100% percent on this, but I ask you (or anyone) for some clarification on hashtag activism, and a comment on some argumentative techniques: 1. On hashtag activism: if we use a hashtag on our Facebook page, but don’t have a Twitter account, does it go anywhere? How do other people see it when we use it? 2. Argumentative technique: I think you have mentioned this before, but the recent decision by the Supreme Court on gay marriage may be used to the advantage here: With gay activists so intent on the term “marriage” instead of… Read more »

Nathan Smith
Member

This is my question as well (#1). I’ve never been a hashtagger but the abortion/PP thing may be the hurricane blows me into hashtagland.

Mike Moline
Guest
Mike Moline

It did move me into hashtagland. Just did my first retweets.

Nathan Smith
Member

And anyone in the know can answer on #1. It doesnt have to be Pastor Wilson.

timothy
Guest
timothy

For getting your bearings on hashtag activism go here: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/07/ppgate.html That suggested response is modeled after the successful tactics of the #GamerGate anti-SJW campaign. They work. Once you log into Twitter, you can do a “search” for #UnitedWayHelpsPP #PPSellsBabyParts and #PPGate. You can then save those searches and when you revisit them you see all the history of everybody who used that hashtag. As you tweet, other people will use different hash tags and things just start to cascade as to the effective consensus for winning the campaign. The most basic support you can offer is to scan the tweets… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

For a quick tutorial, I just did the following.

Log into Twitter.
In the search, enter #PPGate and wait for the results.
Upvote every tweet I approve of, retweet as I see fit.
Save that search.
In the search enter #PPSellsBabyParts
Same thing as above, upvote, retweet.
I noticed N.D. Wilson was using the #PPSellsBabyParts but not the #PPGate hashtag, so I retweeted and added the comment “#PPGate has your six” which starts the process of cross-seeding the two communities.

hthl

Nathan Smith
Member

Thanks.

Greg Pyne
Guest
Greg Pyne

Timothy, thank you for the tutorial. So a Twitter account is indeed necessary for hashtag stuff. Okay, will get one started.

Greg Pyne
Guest
Greg Pyne

Oh, understood. I was just addressing Pastor Wilson since it is his blog. Happy with the answers received from others thus far.

Brandon Klassen
Guest
Brandon Klassen

Something else that needs to be done simultaneously is that we need to be pointing out other organizations that are already in place that provide all the helpful and healthy women’s health things that PP does (or at least says it does), BUT without providing abortions. Give United Way and others an alternative where they can still donate towards women’s health.

You can’t just clean a house and leave it. Fill it up with that which is good and wholesome.

carole
Guest
carole

Excellent point. Do you have a list or suggestions?

Brandon Klassen
Guest
Brandon Klassen

Unfortunately no. Not immediately. I’m sure there are others more able than I to compile such a list.

D Coughlin
Guest
D Coughlin

Here’s one: http://morningcenter.org/

The @MorningCenter offers…
– Full service, quality prenatal care that celebrates the joy of new life.
– Highly trained medical staff including dedicated obstetricians and nurses.
– Greater flexibility for mothers to make their own birth choices.
– Staff members who have a clear sense of God’s calling to demonstrate the Gospel of Jesus Christ in an effective and practical way as they care for each mother and baby.
– Partnering with other charitable, Christian organizations that offer a vast array of ministries and services that low-income mothers and families need.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

This was initiated by George ‘W’ and Laura Bush

http://www.adoptuskids.org/

josh
Guest
josh

I just went on to United Ways instagram page. A recent picture posted speaks of childrens smiles. Seemed like a good spot to ask the question. You can publicly apply pressure on them there.

Sara F.
Guest

I added a comment to a different picture — great idea!

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Guest
Conserbatives_conserve_little

I sent an email to Lambougini asking them to just refuse the blood money and give the killer a car with the admonition to quit killing children.

freddy
Guest
freddy

Seriously? Awesome. Those Italians take it personally, mafia style.

“Don’t mess with my potential family PP!”

BurlyGates
Guest
BurlyGates

See the bottom half of pg 3 and into pg 4 for what PP thinks may be other shoes to drop:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/7714/3741/4123/Letter_to_Chairman_Upton.pdf

denise
Guest
denise

Eww, they are certainly not happy campers! “Turn that light out!”

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

That PP letter was written before Gatter/tape #2 came out, so it doesn’t address their weakest legal position; alteration of timing/method/ procedure. If the tapes keep coming every week or so, PP will stay one cycle behind.

Of course Kirsten Powers – – hardly a right winger – – came out yesterday with “the crunching is the problem.” [http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/07/21/planned-parenthood-abortion-fetus-parts-kirsten-powers/30426475/] She doesn’t care what’s legal; she’s profoundly offended by the horror of doing these awful things, be they lawful or not.

A. James
Member

That’s what I was about to mention on The Other thread (still thinking about all that) that the second video had not come out yet. Since there is flurry at all levels primarily about “selling baby parts”, I suppose they took that and ran with that easiest allegation to more fully address. Perhaps they have addressed all they will and see if the flurry dies down or be preparing otherwise, etc. **What does happen after committee hearings? Say something egregious still seems afoot…what happens then, where does all this go?** KP: “There was total silence from The New York Times… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Caught a few minutes of Rush right at the end of today’s show. Not clear to me if he’s been tipped off directly or if he’s just heard about the next video from a third party. But he expects more late tonight or in the morning. Something about the dissection of a near term but aborted baby in order to harvest parts. Er, excuse me, I meant “to obtain specimens.”

If PP has the sense God gave a doorknob, they’re wondering what ELSE is on tape?

A. James
Member

Thoughts on this? It wasn’t a valid request, or it’s government games? http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/23/hhs-rejects-planned-parenthood-foia-request-because-its-not-newsworthy/ Okay, I read Rush’s summary. Maybe he’s gleaning it from that PP letter http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/7714/3741/4123/Letter_to_Chairman_Upton.pdf “At this point, we do not know the full extent of Biomax’s illicit conduct. We believe that on at least one occasion a representative from Biomax was shown a highly sensitive area in a clinic where tissue is processed after abortion procedures. While this work is standard and essential in any abortion procedure, any filming in such an area would be an extremely serious invasion of our patients’ privacy and dignity.” or yes,… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

The NR Reporter story in one of your links, an interview with the project director, says there’s about a dozen more videos to come. Not newsworthy? Really. Agencies have vast discretion. It would take about as long to slug it out in court as it would take to get the data. Plus cost a lot. If a R who campaigned on this wins, and if the data sought has not been lost in “computer crash” between Nov 2016 and Jan 2017, who knows what may come out? Or in the “investigation” the DOJ will make of the CMP folks.

A. James
Member

I suppose the DOJ doesn’t realize the CMP, etc. would wear any verdict of guilty as righteous civil disobedience if their efforts lead to defunding or marginalizing. Or maybe they do know this, but know it will reduce “credibility” of CMP for some and give some deflecting talking points on CMP’s own violation of law. The more damage they can do, the less likely a typical R will campaign on this issue if CMP and supporters are regarded as “fringe”.

http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/planned-parenthood-struggles-under-bad-publicity-from-body-parts-trafficking-scandal/
http://schakowsky.house.gov/press-releases/schakowsky-lofgren-nadler-and-clarke-send-letter-to-attorneys-general-asking-for-investigation-into-center-for-medical-progress/

Meanwhile, I always like to remember The Sisters.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/ap/legal/nuns-appeal-birth-control-ruling-to-supreme-court
http://www.bpnews.net/45180/guidestone-appeals-to-scotus-over-abortion-mandate

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Count me as very skeptical on the theory that DOJ can paint the videotapes as “extremist.” Haven’t looked; if CA is not a “one party consent” state (LA is) then it may well be that CMP has a defensive battle on its hands. Their project took 3 years, so they had ample opportunity to research the legality of their taping. Obama’s DOJ has a problem of its own; how can they get irate at the 60 Minutes-style undercover taping but not at what the taping shows? America will have flak curtains on its in-baskets for a long time.

A. James
Member

You can be skeptical. I’m perpetually skeptical of even my own theories :) From what I think I read somewhere along the “ghoulish” way, CA is not a “one party consent” state. Well. The term “extremist” is already being used with loyal abortionists about all of this. And let the media assist in broad brush painting…and it turns out it’s “those” fringe conservative Catholics/Christians that are against women’s rights and choices (and everything else “progressive”) behind this…and that hate builds and overrides any nigglings of conscience…well, let’s just say I can see it. (Add that to anything else they find… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

The nation NEEDS to have SERIOUS debate over the next 16 months about the roles/scope/mission of Caesar as contrasted to the “private sector” – – which is much larger than Wall St and the Fortune 500. It most definitely includes churches and non-profits. IMHO, Caesar is coloring far, far outside the lines of what belongs to the state. People of faith (NOT just Christians!) are and should be a vital part of that debate. From our earliest days we excluded religious tests for holding public office, barred the establishment of a state church, and allowed people to affirm rather than… Read more »

A. James
Member

“The nation NEEDS to have SERIOUS debate over the next 16 months about the roles/scope/mission of Caesar as contrasted to the “private sector” – – which is much larger than Wall St and the Fortune 500. It most definitely includes churches and non-profits” I know. But. Are we not overcome with sharp conflict or divergence (within and without the church) in our bias or “personal truth” circle …that…it’s blinding us to the larger debate. I’m at a loss as to how to emphasize that. It always disintegrates from the bigger issues of the people vs. an emerging Caesar to people… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

A theologian was once asked to reconcile the concept of an infinitely merciful God with the concept of infant damnation. He was silent for a few moments, then said, “The Good Lord sometimes finds it necessary to do things in his public and official capacity that in his private and personal capacity he finds abhorrent.” The Baptists have a great saying; “Is it worth breaking fellowship over?” Inside the four corners of the lot, or at General Conference, fellow Baptists (or any other denomination), sometimes must work out what it means to be a Baptist (or any other denomination). My… Read more »

A. James
Member

I’m about to link two articles on the front post. I think it’s a frightening thing to leave off dialogue about Oberg and it’s ramifications. Correct me if I’m wrong, but while I agree abortion is horrendous, and the crime of it has affected our nation’s conscience, I also believe that the Oberg type stuff (ramifications) will be what can choke the remaining liberty that we have–affecting every which way our faith/any one’s faith (that whole Caesar thing) turns. Don’t know what to DO about Oberg stuff, and maybe that’s why people e-mail and hashtag about PP because what else… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Question for Doug:

How does this situation interact with your “McBaal’s” article of several years ago? If violating the First Commandment doesn’t require one with a properly formed conscience to avoid a business, why does the Sixth? That’s a real question, I’m not trying to play gotcha.

http://www.credenda.org/archive/issues/9-3similitudes.php

bethyada
Member

Jane, I was going to comment about our freedom to buy from any of these places but what Doug was talking about was activism, but I see he has already commented so I will just upvote the comment.

But I wished to thank you for directing me to a most enjoyable read. Several good quotes, perhaps this is the best.

Three weeks ago, we would all eat there from time to time. What god did we believe they were serving then? Are we distressed because of their fickleness to Mammon?”

Andrew Thorpe
Guest
Andrew Thorpe

This may have been raised, but there would appear to be a number of vaccines which have been developed using tissue from an aborted child. Christians need to think very carefully about this issue. http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/human-cell-strains-vaccine-development
http://www.cogforlife.org/prove-it/
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/aborted-fetuses-vaccines/story?id=29005539

wtrsims
Member

Andrew, you may perhaps be genuine and sincere in your concern, but my thoughts regarding that, in sarcastic tone: “Oh, well, if a baby being maneuvered into position in order to be more effectively cut into pieces in his or her mother’s womb and his or her body parts and organs can be divided up, preserved, packaged, and shipped to a middle-man who stands to make a dollar (or thousands–I’ve even seen millions being discussed) and then on to a respectable research organization or federally-funded university means that *I* won’t die of whatever disease, then by all means!”

Tom
Guest
Tom

I suspect that Mr. Thorpe is an anti-vaxxer.

wtrsims
Member

Oh, well I didn’t take him as coming from THAT angle, but I guess he very well could have intended it in that way.

I didn’t and don’t mean any insult to him either way, but I admit I misunderstood him and was mistaken if he was indeed coming at it as an anti-vaxxer.

Andrew Thorpe
Guest
Andrew Thorpe

Sorry, live in the UK. Time difference delay. I am in favour of vaccines which are not derived from cell-lines which originate from an abortion. The links will take folk to various articles about this.

denise
Guest
denise

Avon’s facebook site is already filling with posts from disgusted buyers.

freddy
Guest
freddy

Not enough cake palette to cover this hideous monster.

Adam
Guest
Adam

I received the following reply from our local United Way chapter. “United Way of Kootenai County does not fund Planned Parenthood. Here is United Way Worldwide’s comment on their FAQ page: United Way Worldwide, the leadership and support organization for the network of local United Ways, does not provide financial support to Planned Parenthood. All funding decisions by local United Ways are made by individual United Ways based on an assessment of local needs. United Way Worldwide does not dictate funding decisions to local United Ways. Out of nearly 1,200 local United Ways in the United States, only a small… Read more »

Steve Bremer
Guest
Steve Bremer

I received a similar response from United Way Monterey County: “United Way Monterey County does not fund Planned Parenthood. In addition, United Way Worldwide, the leadership and support organization for the network of local United Ways, does not provide financial support to Planned Parenthood. However, if a donor makes a donation to UWMC through their workplace or other means and designates their gift to Planned Parenthood, that money will pass through us. Out of nearly 1,200 local United Ways in the United States, only a small number (less than 6 percent) provide support to Planned Parenthood. The amount of financial… Read more »

denise
Guest
denise

Almost all of the named funder companies have facebook sites that you can post on! Even though all these listed are horrible… I find the March of Dimes being listed the most unbelievable of all.

Dan Winiarski
Guest
Dan Winiarski

The Left are absolutely EXPERTS at picking off their targets, one by one. I wish we on the Right could do that too. The Left will swarm around a target they perceive as vulnerable, and ravage that target until it caves. And they don’t let internecine feuds cloud their pursuit. The pro-abortion crowd will show up in support of the gay rights people. The gay rights people rally to the aid of the radical environmentalists. The radical environmentalists help raise funds for the anti-gun faction. They all know that if they work together, they can identify a target, attack, and… Read more »

ArwenB
Guest
ArwenB

Because we adhere to strange standards and ideal such as “Fair Play” and “honorable enemies”, which work well in combination, and when the other side believes in the same things.

Unfortunately, to them, “fair play” is “anything that allows our side to win”, and there is no such thing as honor in the treatment of an enemy.

Basically it’s a conflict between the rule of law vs the rule of the tribal council

James Rayment
Guest
James Rayment

Thanks For your Leadership on this, I have emailed my local chapter and every company I am a customer of that support Planned Parenthood.

Luke
Guest
Luke

Let’s start filling in the list! Reply with contact email and twitter handles for the companies below and I will add them into the main list here so we all have one convenient contact sheet. 1. Adobe – Matching grants through Adobe foundation http://www.adobe.com/news-room/pr-contacts.html @adobe . 2. American Cancer Society http://www.cancer.org/aboutus/howwehelpyou/app/contact-us.aspx @AmericanCancer . 3. American Express 4. AT&T 5. Avon 6. Bank of America 7. Bath & Body Works 8. Ben & Jerry’s 9. Clorox 10. Coca-Cola 11. Converse 12. Deutsche Bank 13. Dockers 14. Energizer 15. Expedia 16. ExxonMobil 17. Fannie Mae 18. Groupon 19. Intuit 20. Johnson &… Read more »

christian
Guest
christian

Below is part of an email I sent to my elected officials and email list “in pursuit” and advocating for us to encourage the lesser magistrate to step up in stopping abortion: Friends: Pardon the early evening soap box but the latest sting video of Planned Parenthood that came out yesterday showing another Planned Parenthood ghoul haggling over the price of baby body parts while (laughingly) expressing the hope of buying a Lamborghini with the proceeds has me yearning for an end to this madness. Below is the link to the clip and below it is a link to a… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Fearless Leader Doug hit the “pursuit” nail solidly on the head. Yes, keep up the pressure. Worse, once upon a time, less pressure and pursuit would have been needed. Washington DC used to be a LOT more hospitable place to respecting the free exercise of religious conviction than it is now. Example: here’s a law prof in Full Snit mode about curtailing religious freedom. She’s doing her bit to keep free exercise down; see: https://verdict.justia.com/2015/07/23/a-series-of-unfortunate-events-for-religious-liberty?utm_source=Justia+Law&utm_campaign=6f67f2f2fd-summary_newsletters_practice&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_92aabbfa32-6f67f2f2fd-405937282 Lately Justia has been disabling all comments if a gay-related topic is posted, so just in case it never shows there, I’ll post it here.… Read more »

lauslausdeo
Guest
lauslausdeo

Speaking of battle plan’s, here’s a little about the strategy behind the undercover videos: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/why-the-catholic-behind-the-planned-parenthood-videos-went-undercover/#.VbEm0IN9NBx.facebook

Ian Miller
Member

Thank you. That’s an excellent link to share considering all the “fraud” “edited videos” and other panicked distractions smokescreens that are being thrown up.

jahn
Guest
jahn

Well I tried it on Facebook and my local United Way chapter has the talking points down: ME: I noticed that your annual report mentions helping fund Planned Parenthood of Illinois. In the light of the recent videos that reveal that PP traffics in baby parts, and the upcoming congressional hearings, is the Heart of Illinois United Way currently willing to discontinue funding Planned Parenthood? HEART OF ILLINOIS UNITED WAY The Heart of Illinois United Way’s policy for more than 30 years has been to fund only two types of programs at Planned Parenthood: medical examinations and education. No United… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I am not sure of you views on “[medical] exams, STI testing, birth control distribution, etc as medical services…” – Are these things abhorrent to you? Yes Abortion procedures only make up around 3% of the total services offered by Planned Parenthood, Planned parenthood does provides sexual education, birth control, and information on prevention sexually transmitted diseases, pre-natal care, neo-natal care, women’s healthcare healthcare and wellness. – You only have to observe the destruction of young peoples’ lives to see the reason for their usefulness: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/03/31/indiana-gop-defunded-planned-parenthood-and-caused-an-hiv-outbreak-with-their-stupidity/ And My impression is that adoptions are more expensive than abortion services, and are… Read more »

Matthew Abate
Guest
Matthew Abate

According to the Federalist, the DOJ has been incited by a few prominent Democrats into investigating the “legality” of the sting videos by the Center for Medical Progress: http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/23/doj-investigate-planned-parenthood-video/

timothy
Guest
timothy

There is an interesting angle to this. Many companies have “matching funds” programs where any donation to by an employee to a 501c3 is matched by the corp. Planned Parenthood (what a ghastly lie that is) is a 501c3 corp.

One other interesting angle. If I as an employee give to 501c3 “Gov’t Approved” I probably won’t need to fear an audit by the IRS. However, if I give to 501c3 “Gov’t UnApproved” then, as the IRS crime shows, people will be targeted.

just a thought.

freddy
Guest
freddy

Look, “Covering costs” IS “making a profit” in a non-profit setting! They go from paying to dispose of body parts either through expensive on-site machinery, or shipping it to a medical waste disposal facility. This is a financial win-win for them. You reduce incremental cost, and you increase incremental income – voila! – profit! But of course it’s not called that. But I guarantee that it makes more funds available for bonuses, salaries, entertainment, etc. We need to grasp this: If the president of Planned Parenthool stood on the corner of the street with her bull-horn hawking body parts for… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Ok, here is an updated list with ‘some’ contact information. There is an extended list here: http://greatdebateusa.com/exposepp.php/ but below will be an ok start. There is a ruse you need to be aware of. Several companies deny funding PP, but they do have “matching funds” for employee contributions to 501c3 corps–which PP is. So, a good follow up may be to ask about that. Because of this ‘ruse’ I have not removed the ford and xerox links until this is verified. Some pointers from a recent, successful campaign. Keep emailing and tweeting and ‘favoriting’ and retweeting. Its not the deluge,… Read more »

katie
Guest
katie
Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

As usual, there is another side to every story, (and the other side may yet be also a Christian narrative.) The civil war would have ended even sooner if General Lee had followed his own doctrine, and avoided the rag-tag pieces of the Army of The Republic who defended a very strong position on Cemetery Ridge. If instead, Lee had pressed on unopposed for 1 day’s march to Washington D.C , the war of secession would have would have ended in victory for the Army of Virginia, with fewer casualties. “…pursuit is critical…” Remembering your doctrine and picking your fights… Read more »

A. James
Member

“Remembering your doctrine and picking your fights is even more critical.”
I like that.

Do you think doctrine isn’t being remembered in this and that this isn’t a fight to pick?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Yes.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Yes

And if you have to use the devil’s tools of half-truths, obfuscation, denial of facts, and emotional appeals to reach your goals, you might be doing the devil’s work for him.

A. James
Member

I agree. We might all agree. Well, actually, from some of the comments I guess there has been “end justifies the means” stuff that has me in surprise… Maybe that is the biggest problem, but what I keep wondering if the bigger problem is that there isn’t agreement on what ‘truth” is or “facts” or “emotion” (within society and in the church). It’s what I mean when I try to emphasize that we must pull out of our bias as much as possible to find better more common meeting ground on what’s most important in all this. But to some… Read more »

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

Cool cartoon.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

As usual, there is another side to every story, (and the other side may yet be also a Christian narrative.) The Civil War would have ended even sooner if General Lee had followed his own doctrine, and avoided the rag-tag fragments of the Union Army who defended a very strong position on Cemetery Ridge at the end of the first day. If instead, Lee had skirted Gettysburg and pressed on unopposed for 1 day’s march to Washington D.C., the war of secession would have would have ended in victory for the Army of Virginia, with fewer casualties. “…pursuit is critical…”… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

God sells baby parts?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

You repeat a half-truth and exaggerate it in order to to re-inforce my examples.

Thank You timothy.

RFB
Guest
RFB

Mr. Sells,

Yes or No question: Is abortion murder?

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

RFB, At least in the U.S., the human answer must be “No.” Kelly P.S. Here’s what Louisiana has to say about killing a baby not yet born: R.S. 14§2. Definitions A. In this Code the terms enumerated shall have the designated meanings: (11) “Unborn child” means any individual of the human species from fertilization and implantation until birth. [Kelly added comment: so preventing implantation would not be either an abortion nor a murder because no person exists prior to implantation.] R.S. §32.5. Feticide defined; exceptions A. Feticide is the killing of an unborn child by the act, procurement, or culpable… Read more »

RFB
Guest
RFB

Kelly M. Haggar,

I did not mean by being classified as legal by legislative act, but per the definition of “The judge of the whole earth”. This is the true standard because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

My bad. I sometimes don’t follow enough of my own advice to make sure which circle I’m in; the “law” (human/secular) one or the “religion” one.

A. James
Member

Wow. And we wonder how we got to where we are when one reads these things again. Sounds so “academic, reasonable, noble”…cold…as they write away rights of one for the selfishness of another… And I still say people that don’t care about the murder (or “not murder”) behind the baby parts, how do we really think this choice of a woman to donate parts to research is going to make a dent in their conscience. It will soothe their conscience, and look like a reasonable, noble, academic, humanitarian thing to do. I understand more now that maybe some don’t really… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Well, That IS an interesting Question RFB. There is no doubt that up until three decades ago, providing medical abortions, sterilizations, contraception, and family planning services was NOT murder. Good, Conservative, well-educated, Christian people supported programs to bring family planning for the relief of people stuck in poverty, for ‘the retarded’ who were thought to be unable to make decisions for themselves, for the improvement of the race, and so forth. Here is the Walt Disney version of the argument in favor of family planning (note the unintentional paternal colonial racist attitude) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2DkiceqmzU The “Christian” debate over providing medical abortions… Read more »

RFB
Guest
RFB

Mr. Sells, Yes or no is simple, just like “does a triangle have 3 sides?” In an effort to clarify my question, I want to eliminate what I am not asking. I cannot find any scriptural warrant for a “intrinsic preciousness of human life”. (God ascribes dignity (not sacredness) to humans by His creating them in His image, and prescribes a specific penalty for the warrantless killing (murder) of His image-bearers.) I am not asking for consensus or the vagaries of opinion from “Good, Conservative, well-educated…Christians who agreed…mainline Protestantism…Roe vs. Wade…Ronald Reagan…”, or Rush Limbaugh. To eliminate (what I believe… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Well, yes, if you go in and merely ‘harvest’ a liver and heart, and do nothing else, that would cause the death of the fetus.

My understanding is that the act of ending the life of the fetus is usually a separate act from the ‘harvesting’, and has already been contracted for by the person(s) who actually share the biology with the fetus and should have the right to decide how that biology proceeds.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

“The act of ending the life of the fetus…has already been contracted for by the person who shares the biology…” In other words, the abortionist as contract killer and the mother as the one who hires the hit.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Bravo Jane – restating my point with exaggeration towards absurdity to ridicule the position. – Logical Fallacy. 200 points taken away from Slytherin. When “Good Christian” Eugenics programs of the last century provided safe medical abortions and sterilizations for people without their consent, it was not counted as murder by those Christians. (as PP still does, with consent), When “Good Christian” anti-abortion programs deny ALL care to women, leading to disease, hardship and harm to the babies, that is not counted as ‘harmful’ by those Christians. When a woman makes her own legal decision regarding her own biology. then ‘Good… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I smell mendacity.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Phrases such as “her biology” are an obfuscation offered up on the holy altar of choice. Can we rephrase: When a woman makes a legal decision to end the life of her unborn child, Good Christians condemn the entire idea. Does that sound quite so outrageous?

By the way, I am Jill, not Jane. I wish I were Jane as she is extremely intelligent and witty, but there it is.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Since the goal is to de-fund all medical services and all educational programs and all disease prevention programs and all other choices such as contraception, and also reduce adoption referrals, …as was originally done with Reagan’s “Mexico City Policy”, and continues with more recent examples (Indiana), the effect is to remove a woman’s control over her biology. You use the logical fallacy: “since Pro-Life advocates are good Christians, then the only good Christians are Pro-life”. While I have provided abundant support for the idea that “good Christians” did and do presume that contraception, abortion, and sterilization programs were, and are,… Read more »

RFB
Guest
RFB

So when you say “Well, yes” do you mean that “Yes, this is murder”?

or do you mean because the act was subject to a contract with the mother that
“No, this is not murder”?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

What do you say?

RFB
Guest
RFB

That seems like a dodge to me; my first impression is that you are avoiding a clear concise answer. Is yes or no that difficult?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

It would seem so. Yes, it is murder if I happen to want my baby; no, it is a necessary medical procedure if I don’t. It’s a baby when I am decorating the nursery and buying adorable crib bedding; it is a fetus when I am on my way to the abortion clinic. I suppose the current accurate definition would be: it is murder only if someone other than the mother authorizes the hit.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I already answered, but hid the answer in my first post on purpose. At this point I’m just messing with you.
;-)

RFB
Guest
RFB

Well, since I am obviously (although unintentionally) obtuse, just reveal your answer to me.

Both Jesus (“Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No”) and St. James (“let your “yes” be yes and your “no” be no”) offer an easy to follow model.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

RFB
Guest
RFB

Your admitted model is disingenuous: “At this point I’m just messing with you.”

Because of your reluctance to give a clear, unambiguous answer, you lend credence to your seemingly apparent practice: “you are avoiding a clear concise answer.”

A. James
Member

“However, as long as some of you mix your message with misogyny and slut shaming; As long as you suppress modern healthcare information for women and teenagers; as long as you react with hatred for the poor, and cause child behavior to be criminalized; as long as you support ignorant man-splaining of rape and domestic abuse; as long as you allow your followers to occasionally “break script” and call for the sterilization of the poor and the people of many colors,…then you are working for the father of lies,… and I will not stand with you.” All that has happened… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I am not presenting a ‘No true Scotsman” fallacy – I acknowledge that all are together in the Body of Christ. However, i think the focus is on the wrong sin and the means of attacking the sin are influenced by lack of understanding, and mendacity.

The people who are repeatedly attacking the victims and claiming their own righteousness, and telling half-truths, can go their own way.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think you must have had unfortunate and unusual experiences in the pro-life community. Of course there are some very unpleasant people whose Christianity has not yet triumphed over their lack of charity. I have read their opinions on websites (but not this one), but I have seldom encountered them among the people working to help women through crisis pregnancies. I thank God that I was never put in the position of an unwanted pregnancy. As with any other sin, I have no idea what I would have done–I only know what I hope I would have done. I don’t… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I am surrounded by friends and family who are amazingly caring and dutiful Christians, who have often gone out to find one more child who needs to be loved and nurtured and held and given a loving home. I have also witnessed the great personal expense and sacrifice and great heartbreak that goes along with it. Having witnessed the horrors that are perpetrated upon these children, and upon their mothers, I cannot imagine that there is a more important thing to do FIRST, than to work for a world where children and mothers are safe. I find the the current… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

You claim to have no self righteousness, but project self righteousness in every phrase.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I’m sure I do, Mark. I claimed to have no faith in my own righteousness, which is a far different thing altogether. I will be self-righteous, proud, and pharisaical to the day I die. In my heart I will be racist, elitist, ethnocentric and a dozen other unpleasant qualities, and my efforts to uproot these sins will not, in this lifetime, bear as much fruit as you or I would like. But none of these facts disqualify me from saying that abortion is a great evil that Christians cannot tolerate.

Nathan Smith
Member

Wow. So what Planned Parenthood is actually doing is God’s good work? Lets bid them carry on because only 3% of what they do is destroying human lives? Easily outweighed by informing women about when its appropriate to have a shot of rocephin? The 3% solution? Maybe we should call it the 3/100ths compromise and put it in the constitution. Lets hashtag that.

Thanks for setting me straight, because… science.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Your welcome, because… truth

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Truth The largest part of the ‘Christian’ debate over abortion has been ‘who chooses?” Not counting female eggs that are never fertilized, approximately 70% of zygotes are naturally aborted before coming to term, because they are not viable at some stage of development. (genetic abnormalities, nutrition, environment, physical trauma,…) Even though this can be a terrible tragedy for the parents, we do not name God as the abortionist. We do not say that “God chooses”. – The book of Job shows us that anyone who is blaming God as the author of natural disasters, or else claiming He will punish… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

What you are saying is that until everyone on the pro-life side shares your politics and your sexual ethics, you can’t be pro-life. It is hard for me to believe that you see abortion as the procured death of a child because, if you did, the nature and quality of your pro-life allies would pale into insignificance. I don’t think you would make the same argument against any other great evil. If you were in a position to stop child sex trafficking, I don’t think you would decline on the grounds that some of the people who share your opposition… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

No – I am saying that if the anti abortion rhetoric use hate, lies, half-truths and obfuscations to hurt other people, i do not view it as a Christian activity.

Ian Miller
Member

Your choice of words consistently buys the lies of pro-abortion rhetoric. You say, “I am not against the pro-life cause,” but constantly call it “anti abortion” and the language of modern third wave feminism (slut shaming, etc). If you truly opposed the murder of children by abortion, I do not think your articulation would so consistently subvert that value.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Maybe i don’t want to be associated with right wing radicals, I can wait until there is rational discourse.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/07/25/3684489/republican-party-chairman-tells-state-ignore-roe-v-wade/

Ian Miller
Member

Left wing radicals, of course, are actually moderates who only speak rationally…

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Yeah , I notice that the right wing sloganeering is very sure of itself, and does not allow any nuance.

“Islam is Evil”
“Iran Is Evil”
“Homosexuality is Evil”
“Obama is Evil”
“Illegals are Illegal”
“Abortion is Murder”

BTW – If President Obama decide that abortion was wrong and started to work to stop it throughout the country, how many people around us would instantly say that he was only trying to allow “welfare cheats” to get more money for extra babies and suddenly become pro-choice?

Ian Miller
Member

“Intolerance is evil” “Investigating claims of rape is evil” “Opposing gay marriage is hate (and therefore evil)” “The wrong side of history (and therefore evil)” “Bush is evil” “Opposing a woman’s choice is evil” I hear the exact same lack of nuance from the left. If you think you hear the same kinds of slogans here, that’s one thing. But in general, I think most of the commentors here, both those I agree with and those I disagree with, tend post thoughtfully. Bringing your dislike of other people here doesn’t make sense, unless you’re simply trying to mock those who… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Yeah, That’s a little contrived.

You don’t see those catchy ‘lefty’ phrases on bumper stickers, or as click bait on facebook posts . However, there’s more likely to be a “abortion is murder” sticker on the back of a Chevy Trailblazer” with stickers that support right wing politics, guns, patriotism, war, or hunting.

We call this ‘Evanston Bingo’ in Chicago (neighborhoods around Northwestern University – founded by Presbyterians)
– if you spot a “CoExist” sticker with:
“Obama 2008”
“Mean people suck”
“Endless War” crossed out to read “End This War”
and so on.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nc8MDPDGwp0/S6zkYq4bkVI/AAAAAAAAA-c/fxJQR7oT2jY/s1600/bumper-stickers_400.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/–gk8Dc7Dz3s/T-CFV64VgRI/AAAAAAAAAC4/GZhckUR743c/s1600/Bumper-Sticker-Albuquerque-NM-LGF_2.jpg

comment image

Ian Miller
Member

So, now we must find bumper stickers to substantiate, instead of quotes from people on the internet? I don’t think so.

Additionally, abortion is murder. It’s not a slogan, it’s an inconvenient truth, to borrow a well turned phrase from the left.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

well, an inconvenient truth that is a slogan that is used as a bumper sticker.

http://www.zazzle.co.nz/abortion_is_murder_bumper_sticker-128011359105138028

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

There are people who will say anything, no matter how cynical, evil, or stupid. But every Christian I know would be down on their knees thanking God and wondering how to help. Mark, you can’t have it both ways. If the Christians here are noteworthy for their vicious racism and hatred for the poor, why do they want to end the abortion epidemic among poor and minority women?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

From the outside, is seems that – Just as the purpose of George Bush’s 2003 war in Iraq was to fulfill Bible Prophecy according to Revelations 9:14-15, break the Sixth Seal, release the ‘four Angels’ (or, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse -Conquest, War, Famine, and Death) and to hasten the End Times, “… so that they would kill a third of mankind…” and ultimately bring Christ into his Dominion on Earth; The ‘Dominionists’ are surely acting against the Law of Moses and the Command of our lord Jesus Christ by presuming that they have the patriarchal white man privilege… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

That’s a lot of psychic knowledge you have into the hearts of men, there.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Or maybe I’m merely aware of how many of (Dominionist) Rev.Pat Robertson’s Regent University Law School graduates were peppered throughout the Bush 43 Presidency staff, and had a glimpse of how many times Bush mentioned “Gog and Magog” to the President of France, the Prime Ministers of England and Germany, while he was ‘coalition building’ in 2002, and maybe had a cousin who was appointed Bush’s Ambassador to the UN. …plus the activities of government contractor (private army) Blackwater Security in Iraq, controlled by Evangelicals VP Cheney and Eric Prince. Why was Blackwater given free reign to travel throughout the… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

Now I’m not sure who needs the tinfoil hat here, you or me.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

If Colin Powell ever comes back to the Republican Party (and it is still being run by the same Dominionists, and not bought out by Donald Trump), I will gladly vote for him and doff a tinfoil Homberg to you.

http://www.vqronline.org/essay/christian-four-aces

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

,,,’til then, I will buy shares in Reynold’s Aluminum, and wish you best of luck.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Yes, Mark will wait for the purity of rational discourse, and avoid the kind of rhetoric he finds objectionable, and the babies can keep dying until the discourse suits his refined tastes.

Do you even hear yourself?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Do you hear your self righteousness?

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

In what way is pointing out that holding out until everybody else gets everything right results in harm to the actual victims of the issue, self-righteous?

I don’t claim to have it right, and I’m far from the example of doing what I ought to be doing on the issue, I only claim that basing your attitude about an issue on your judgment of how well other people are addressing it, is a cop out.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

By the virtue of presuming that if you choose to make decisions for others, then by your righteousness, then everyone should join you.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Mark, let’s try RFB’s question again with less loaded terminology and snippiness from me. Do you believe that a procured abortion ends a human life? If so, do you believe this across the entire nine months? Would you be comfortable with the word kill as opposed to murder? Do you see the fetus as an unborn child? If so, do you believe that child has any civil or natural right to life? If so, do you believe that a mother’s wish not to give birth to her unborn child–whether for an excellent reason or for no reason–must always trump that… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

quoting myself above [I would never want a child of my conception to be deliberately killed at any stage of his or her life. I believe I do not have the right to impose a choice to end the life of someone else’s child at any stage of their life.] So,.. I have witness the rape victim who is hysterical and horrified that there is a thing growing inside her, that was put there through violence and assault, a personal violation against her will; the drug addict moms and the resulting babies, who are born addicted, and watch the babies… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi Mark, thank you for your reply. I do understand that you are passionate about the plight of women caught in unwanted pregnancies, and that you believe that you cannot impose your own pro-life view on a woman in a desperate situation. Here is where I have trouble with that, and I would welcome your analysis of where my argument breaks down. First, all the social ills you mention (truly) fall equally on mothers of born children as well as unborn. They fall on born children themselves as well as children not yet born. If you acknowledge the fetus as… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

First, [“… how can you condemn one killing yet justify another?”] If you have any idea of my patriarchal white male privilege (hint: If your Thanksgiving feasts included imagery of the Plymouth Pilgrims, you can think of it as a secular worship of my family), then tell me that I should be the person to decide for other people how they should treat their own biological functions, … …and that whatever consequences befall them, whether I chose to impose abortions and sterilizations and provide contraception (as Good Christians have done during the last century), or otherwise to choose to deny… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

Can you provide sources for pro-life activists calling for birth control and sterilization? I would love to condemn this kind of activity, but I have never encountered it.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I characterized them as “good Christians” and they were “Good Christians”

You seem to be putting forth some sort of logical “If all A are B then all B must be A argument.
– If all Pro-Life Activists are Christians (not true) then all Christians must be Pro-Life (not true, either)

Ian Miller
Member

I’m not making a logical argument at all. I’m merely inquiring about the source of these claims you are making (since the last time I asked for sources, if I recall correctly, you provided two or three clearly fringe examples that you were claiming as mainstream representatives of a field of opinion).

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I do love how this thread replicates the Babel that was said to defeat the people who built the tower. I have reassured myself that I cited them fairly profusely within this thread. So your logical riposte is to say that they lack authority; that they are too ‘fringey” for you. ____________________________________________________________________ I do like the Walt Disney video. Looks like a typical “mainstream”view from the 1960’s to me. (Disney and Pat Robertson share a cable channel here in Chicago.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2DkiceqmzU ____________________________________________________________________ National Right to Life Committee – looks kind’a fair and balanced to me. “The “Christian” debate over providing… Read more »

A. James
Member

Some of your quotes reminded me of this article on the SBC/pro-life I happened upon this weekend:
http://bpnews.net/44055/how-southern-baptists-became-prolife

Ian Miller
Member

“The film was supposedly produced for the U.S. Family Council, a Planned Parenthood Affliate.” All the reviews, including the one you’ve posted here, stress that it’s mainline, liberal/progressive Christians that are shown to advocate eugenics in Rosen’s book. If your argument is “lots of people supported eugenics in the middle 20th century, including lots of people claiming to be Christians,” then I completely agree. I fail to see the link between these liberal Christians and the pro-life movement. The SBC underwent a major shift from liberal to more conservative during the time period that article describes. I also fail to… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

[“..lots of people claiming to be Christians…”] You won’t abandon your “If A = B, then all B must be A argument.” – False. The point about Reagan’s “Mexico City Policy” is that he made the Pro-Life template for withholding all medical services, and all education programs, and all contraception, and all aid to, and advocacy for women, …because ‘abortion’. No – my argument is that it was wrong to make decisions for other people then, and it is wrong to make decisions for other people now. No – my argument is that 90% of Pro-Lifers are just happy if… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I agree that it’s wrong to make decisions for other people – unless those decisions are murder. I don’t think it’s wrong for a judge to put a person in jail for threatening to kill another person. Similarly, I don’t think it’s wrong for the law to say that mothers and abortionists should not kill a baby.

I am sorry if that is your experience with the pro-lifers you know. It is not the experience I have had my entire life in three pro-life churches.

None of the sources you have posted even slightly support the argument you have just made.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Since you concede that making choices for other people is wrong, I feel that I have accomplished something, and can stop here.

Clearly, I am not going to dislodge you from your “All Pro-Life advocates are Christians, therefore, all true Christians are Pro-life” argument, although you admit it is not a logical argument.

Ian Miller
Member

I concede that making choices for other people is wrong – with significant exceptions. It’s not my fundamental moral rule.

I was unaware that we were arguing about non-Christian pro-life advocates – every source you have provided (except for the Disney movie, which was anti-life) was talking about Christians or those who claimed to be Christian.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I appreciate your reply. I don’t think we can find common ground on this issue. I do, however, tend to agree with you about the criminalization of childish (especially boyish) behavior. Peace to you.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

I do like the selfie with El Papa

Nathan Smith
Member

I guess I’m just a dumb country boy. I dont what you are talking about in a lot of this. I dont know what mansplaining is. It sounds like a word made up by feminists to make men be quiet about issues they dont want men to talk about. But I may be wrong. If anyone is calling for the sterilization of the poor or blacks, thats terrible and I cant abide that. And if anyone is trying to keep poor women “down” by refusing healthcare, then that sounds bad to me too. I dont know anyone who does that… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

If it’s only 3%, why do they get so loud when people try and reduce that number?

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

It’s only 3% of “procedures” when you count every other little picayune thing they do as a separate procedure, including things they don’t even charge for, and the whole process of abortion from beginning to end as one “procedure.” It’s also the highest-priced procedure, so if you cut abortion funding, that’s a huge hit on their budgets.

Ian Miller
Member

Exactly. The “only 3%” is a blatant lie. I just wanted to see if Mr. Sells would acknowledge it.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

…and all the other services are ‘un-funded’?
They just magically appear as if conjured up by ‘house elves’ in a Harry Potter novel?

Ian Miller
Member

Are you responding to my other comment?

Additionally, what prompts all the Harry Potter allusions? If you intend to endorse Rowling’s worldview that some people are just born evil or servants, that certainly fits with the disregard for life shown in pro-abortion arguments.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Do you mean the world view that people will continue to think violently along racial and nationalist lines, to the detriment of their own society?

http://americamagazine.org/issue/living-snape

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

yes

Ian Miller
Member

Other people are engaging you on your claims that PP’s other health services would also disappear if they stopped providing abortions. I’m still wondering if you truly believe that only 3% of Planned Parenthood’s time and money are devoted to abortion.

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Since, where PP has been successfully de-funded (Indiana), we find measurable increases in the spread of STI’s and HIV, fewer overall healthcare services for women, and well publicized deaths of babies through lack of education,…

Yes

Ian Miller
Member

Thank you for your response.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I had thought that the Hyde Amendment prohibited the use of tax revenue to fund abortion. Did this change recently? Or does PP get around it with creative financing?

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

You are correct, I phrased that badly. I should have said, if you interfere with their abortion business, that’s huge hit on their revenue. If you defund PP until they get out of the abortion business, they consider that equivalent to putting them out of business, because the abortion revenue is what really sustains them — even though “abortions are only 3% of their procedures.” See how that works? Abortion is insignificant to them, but they can’t survive without it. It’s the same story you hear with cutting funding to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting — “we’re only 5% government… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

“… including things they don’t even charge for,..” – which still require funding, so are part of services that are funded.

I would say that adoption services, also provided and funded by PP, are even more prohibitively expensive.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

I don’t know what that has to do with the point.

PP does adoption services? Links, please?

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

They provide referrals, the same as with abortion services. The information was provided by ‘jahn’, and inserted into this this discussion thread two days ago. [Are you aware that Planned Parenthood counts exams, STI testing, birth control distribution, etc as medical services in order to give the impression that abortion is small percentage of its services offered, but in the fiscal year 2011-2012 nationwide Planned Parenthood states it only made 2,300 adoption referrals while performing 333,964 abortions, generating revenues of $157 million?] Again we are headed towards a discussion of ‘fuzzy math’. Your point seems to imply that anything else… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Uh, you can’t have it both ways. If their “adoption services” are no more than referrals, then how is that possibly “prohibitively expensive?” Is there something about handing out pamphlets and possibly making a referral call that costs huge amounts of money?

(Cue MAS now snippily reminding me that it costs them “something” to do that, as though that’s a defense of a claim of something being “prohibitively expensive.”)

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

No instead I will snippily refer to ‘fuzzy math arguments”

– the cost is prohibitively expensive if you choose to adopt, as you may know if you’ve reached out to provide a loving home to a child. Adoption services justify the cost because of the background checks, staffing for social workers, processing, etc. (I certainly don’t justify it.)

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

Please describe the methods people try to employ to reduce the number of medical abortion referrals. Slut shaming? Man-splaining how beneficial rape is to the mother? Taking funds away from all healthcare services for women? – at the same time adding requirements for expensive scans and tests that are not related to the health of either the mother or the unborn child? Imposing complicated licensing and code restrictions for women’s health clinics? Criminalizing the dissemination of information for STI’s, HIV, pre-natal care, neo-natal care, family planning methods,…? Banning contraception and information about contraception? Criminalizing the biological condition of the mother,… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I deplore the double standard of judging a woman by her sexual sins but approving by silence of the man. I do think that sexual sins is shameful, and should be treated as such by society – but for both sexes. I reject the argument “to reduce the double standard, you must approve of sexual sin.” Where in any of the suggestions on this blog or any of my responses is defending rape expressed? Almost every pro-life person I’ve met would say that rape is a terrible crime, but taking the life of one innocent victim doesn’t make the other… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

“Criminalizing the biological condition of the mother, so that any reason that the fetus is naturally aborted (malnutrition, genetics, lack of information about pre-natal care,…) is cause to bring criminal charges against the mother, leading to incarceration?” Oh, this again. In all the years, generations, and ages that abortion was illegal over many parts of the world, this has never happened. Nor do we investigate or prosecute any other crime by criminalizing all the conditions that could potentially lead up to it, or by launching an investigation into every situation where it could theoretically have happened, absent any indication that… Read more »

Mark Allen Sells
Guest
Mark Allen Sells

A “straw man” is an exaggerated argument that is easily refuted in order to further your own argument. Since attempts are being made to criminally charge women for having miscarriages, then it is not an exaggeration. (and since you have expanded this to global proportions, I will include an international example).

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/indiana-has-now-charged-two-asian-american-women-feticide-n332761

http://www.thecompassnews.org/2015/05/in-el-salvador-women-who-miscarry-can-end-up-charged-with-abortion/

https://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2013/05/failed-virginia-bill-miscarriages-reveals-ignorance-about-womens-health

timothy
Guest
timothy

Here is a paste-bin version of the list (by somebody else) with some recommendations for the discussion. I suggest that it replace my work as the basis for your activism.

http://pastebin.com/TcSf5KRi

A. James
Member
Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Mark and Alex, Roll this little quote around for a bit. Honey-dos will take up lots of today so I’ll be off the air most of it. kmh ” . . . growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.” The Place of Women on the Court New York Times by Emily Bazelon Published: July 7, 2009 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/magazine/12ginsburg-t.html?pagewanted=all Q: Are you talking about the distances women have to travel because in parts of the country, abortion is essentially unavailable, because there are so few doctors and clinics that do the procedure? And also, the lack of… Read more »

cvancara@comcast.net
Guest

Hi Doug. The paragraphs below are from United Way website. Of course we would like ALL funding for PP to stop, but by the sound of United Way’s answer to the question about donating to PP, do you still think this is the best non-profit to start with? They make it sound like just a LITTLE bit of money to PP…. United Way Worldwide, the leadership and support organization for the network of local United Ways, does not provide financial support to Planned Parenthood. All funding decisions by local United Ways are made by individual United Ways based on an… Read more »