Not What Scissors Are For

The seventh Planned Parenthood video comes pretty close to Dante’s seventh circle. That’s not what scissors are for. But one of the first things I thought of after seeing it was the ninth circle, the circle dedicated to the treacherous. And that is what this is — treacherous, horrific, appalling, heinous, and cold as Hell.

Holly O’Donnell is the technician who worked for StemExpress, and who is testifying in the most recent of the sting videos. And, by the way, when I googled StemExpress to find out if it was two words or one, I was helpfully informed by Google through their suggested sub-directory searches that I can still buy fetal liver if I want, and at the very end of this macabre list was the “wish list” option. What do I wish they could put in my shopping cart for me?

The fact that Planned Parenthood is being evil, and is committing indecencies that are beyond vile, does not mean that they are guilty of every evil. They are murderous, but that does not make them guilty of every murder. The first videos were damning because we could see what the abortionists were doing directly, we could hear them talking about it themselves.

But one of the earlier videos relying on the testimony of O’Donnell was not like that. We heard her saying what other people were doing in the other room. This was an allegation of a great evil, but there was no independent corroboration. This was just one witness.

The fact that Planned Parenthood has forgotten the rule of justice does not mean that those of us who hate what they are doing are allowed to forget it also. And so as I listened to O’Donnell’s earlier testimony, I adopted a wait-and-see approach. I knew there were more videos coming, and I wanted to see if there was going to be corroboration of what she was saying. This video put all those concerns to rest.

This is because what O’Donnell is giving us here is a confession. She is not telling what other people are doing, and expecting us to take the word of one witness for it. She is telling us what she did. And she is doing it in a context where her confession is entirely supported by the surrounding evidence. And so the answer is yes — America is a place where some people do this, other people give them a ton of money to help them do it, and then other people vote the ghoul-enablers to the U.S. Senate. We the people, incidentally, are that last group of “other people.”

If there is to be any hope of dismantling the fabric of lies that have enabled us to become the nation that does these things, and then impudently refuses to stop funding it, it would seem that such hope has to be found in the current moment.

If you took all the skulls of all the babies aborted since Roe and set them side by side, that mournful line would reach from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and probably part way back. And that line would tell you everything you need to know about our spiritual condition. We are a wreck — and the only way out for such wrecks is to repent and call upon the Lord who bled on the cross and rose from the dead. No other way.

If not now, when? If not when confronted by such appalling constitutionalities, what would it take? Abortion is evil, and we are an abortion nation.

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valerieab
Member

“….at the very end of this macabre list was the ‘wish list’ option. What do I wish they could put in my shopping cart for me?”

We can be sure they’d sell the babies’ souls of they could. They’ve already sold their own.

David Trounce
Guest

Say a prayer for Holly.

Mike
Guest
Mike

I wonder what would happen if we started sending out letters to neighbors of PP in urban areas that listed quotes from the founder of PP that told them what she thought of their race along with the address of their local PP. Do #prebornblacklivesmatter? It’s easy enough to get addresses of residents surrounding these abortion mills from Google maps.

aztomt
Member

I don’t know much about Margaret Sanger. I’d like to see some of her quotes, and I’d also like ot know if she ever made any effort to repudiate her racism. I’d like to argue wisely against abortion, not ignorantly. I’m not suggesting, Mike, that you are. Don’t want to start any flames!

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Patience. Mark Sells will be along any minute to tell us of all the good work Sanger did in other areas and how she’s a net plus, all things considered. I doubt it’s on-line, WAY pre-dates the Net, but many, many years ago there was a transcript of Hitler being questioned by Joe Biden at a Senate hearing on his nomination to be HEW Secretary. “I strongly report your anti-smoking stance and your highway program but I have problems with other parts of your record where you went too far.” “I can understand that, Senator, so perhaps we should focus… Read more »

A. James
Member

I’ll help him out. (And I’ve been reading more about her after considering your and Kyle’s convo a few days ago.) I thought you’d find this amusing on the “consistency” or lack thereof or chickens come home to roost or boomerangs do come back or something concept: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/08/black_ministers_petition_smithsonian_to_remove_bust_of_margaret_sanger.htmlou'd “Margaret Sanger’s memory ought to be as big an issue as the Confederate battle flag.” Given that I don’t get into the “remove all the statues” “ban the flag” “rename the roads” stuff, I guess I tried to read of Sanger and consider the “remove her from Smithsonian” concept… Yes, I’m trying… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

The lady of the manor begs Gen. Sherman not to burn her plantation home. “Ma’m, if this were peacetime, I would share my last biscuit with you. But not while you [he meant the South] still resist.” And he torched the whole place. My father was born in America (legally; Ellis Island and all that) but his father wasn’t. I don’t have dog in the flag hunt; I’m not really a “Southerner,” whatever that is. The Late Unpleasantness had been over for almost 60 years when the Hajjar tribe got off the boat. Until my father retired from the USAF… Read more »

A. James
Member

You’ll love this! I was going along just fine till I saw “BLM” and my mind naturally went with “Bureau of Land Management”…and since I know little else of them, the “thugs” was really throwing me for a loop. Time warp! Okay, I’m up to date…”Black Lives Matter” BLM, right? Being a Southerner (and I’ll have to teach you what it is along the way…first lesson, sweet iced tea :), yes, I’m familiar with Sherman from annual jaunts to the Atlanta Zoo and Cyclorama–I’d better go visit before they shut those adjoining sites down, I imagine, for Cecil the Lion… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Ditto on the BLM. Had to do a bunch of late 19th Cent land sale research. Also took me a bit to see what “BLM” means in nearly all news today. Sweet tea? NO WAY!!! Dilute it about 4:1 with unsweet and it becomes drinkable.

A. James
Member

Oh, good! I was almost embarrassed to admit it, but you understood better than I thought.

HOWEVER…as for sweet tea…oh, well. For you, I’ll try it…at least once.

Lesson two, magnolia trees? :D ? Peach cobbler? and we can cut back on the sugar just a little bit…hmph.

Oops, I’d better find something important or acceptable to talk about before I get blamed for Lord knows what next :D

John
Member

Be careful of what you think are Sanger’s “original ” writings. PP got to them long before you did. She was a racist, pure and simple. Any non white, including the disabled of any color, she deemed unfit to reproduce.

A. James
Member

I have been reading her online books as well as sites like exactly the one Matthew Abate recommended below. These are original works. Are you saying that PP has been allowed to burn or rid the world or highly edit and then discard her original works? I can see how they could be selective in what they put on their own sites or misrepresent…but we can all be prone to do that. That’s why I enjoy as original source as I can get so I can decide for myself. I can’t quite go for a conspiracy theory that says her… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Alex takes his jabs at Wilson however he can construe them, but when it comes to Sanger, he’s willing to run cover, turning over rocks to find the “sensible”. I’m seeing a pattern. Running cover can quickly turn into blowing his cover.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

I’m missing the Alex jabs at Wilson. Steer me to one or two?

Katecho
Member

In this thread there is Alex’s jab about hashtags. Recall that Wilson called for the use of hashtags in an earlier post on the PP videos. Perhaps if people start watching for them, his jabs might need to become more subtle. I’m not sure how much fun that would be for Alex though.

I’m glad Alex was able to credit Wilson for having addressed the health care sharing options to Obamacare. Now if we can just get him to stop running cover for Sanger.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

IMHO, Kyle and Mark are Sanger’s defenders, but let a hundred flowers bloom.

A. James
Member

And I’ll trust you, too, to read my “hashtag” comment in full…the “as with the videos, etc…it’s something we can do”…and that I had been trying to “figure out” why the silence on the insurance alternatives…and I know the choice those in my own family and family business made–and the differences of opinion even there…so I was speculating, not jabbing. And I have no idea why people should be more subtle with jabs and/or criticisms towards a public post available for public commenting. And I have no idea why quoting or presenting an alternative view or attempting to understand an… Read more »

Matthew Abate
Guest
Matthew Abate

Here’s the best source for Margaret Sanger quotes: https://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/

Katecho
Member

Sanger’s racism was purely pragmatic and utilitarian. She probably would have labored as a eugenicist even if she had been born a black woman herself. She had swallowed the implications of Darwinism down to her toes. She wrote: Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying … demonstrates our foolhardy and extravagant sentimentalism … [Philanthropists] encourage the healthier and more normal sections of the world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead weight of human waste. … The main objects of… Read more »

A. James
Member

Some links are above in my chatter to Kelly. One of which includes MLK Jr stuff. “In 1966, the year Sanger died, the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. said There is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger’s early efforts. …Our sure beginning in struggle for equality by nonviolent direct action may not have been so resolute without the tradition established by Margaret Sanger and people like her (King, 1966). In 1966, Planned Parenthood Federation of America inaugurated the PPFA Margaret Sanger Award to honor the woman who founded America’s family planning movement. The PPFA Margaret Sanger Award… Read more »

John
Member

There are multiple interviews of Sanger being interviewed by Mike Wallace. Many of her earlier writings have been scrubbed clean by PP.

John
Member

PP did scrub some of her books clean. I happen to prefer the interviews, Seemed like an angry individual. And now they give out “journalism awards in her name to anyone who can string together 2 coherent sentences as long as they reflect well on PP.

rungeeric
Member
rungeeric

She died as she lived. There are two books I’d recommend, both by George Grant. They are Killer Angel and Grand Illusions. I think they’re both out of print, but you can get them both for free here: http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/sidefrm2.htm

David Trounce
Guest

I notice that StemExpress are frantically trying to altar their Google search results and indeed their entire site with many pages now pulled down.

People are leaving all kinds of negative reviews through Google Places. Here is a one star review that stood out….

“Keep up the good work. Sincerely, Josef Mengele”

aztomt
Member

I’m sure if God allowed him to speak from the dead as he did Samuel, that is more or less what he would say. He might add a couple races to the list, just to make sure they were getting the attention they deserved…

timothy
Guest
timothy

If there is to be any hope of dismantling the fabric of lies that have
enabled us to become the nation that does these things, and then
impudently refuses to stop funding it, it would seem that such hope has
to be found in the current moment.

Anne Barnhardt, years ago, saw the writing on the wall, sold her business and went on a tax-strike. She is now cleaning toilets off-the-books.

While I agree that it (may be) is prudent to wait for the regime in D.C.’s Senate arm to demonstrate their fealty to God, I think our next option is the Bernhardt option.

paulmlawr
Guest
paulmlawr

As these videos started coming out I was reminded of a Monty Python bit on organ donation from their movie The Meaning of Life.

Strikes me as downright satirical of the Planned Parenthood death camps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aclS1pGHp8o

Benjamin Bowman
Guest

In light of the PP videos, that skit is drastically less amusing.

paulmlawr
Guest
paulmlawr

that’s the point

Todd
Guest
Todd

“You’re not doctors, then? Oh, blimey–no! Heh. Heheheh!” Truer words have never been spoken.

Victor Fontenot
Guest
Victor Fontenot

Agreed

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

Gen 4:10 And the Lord said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. If God had the above reaction to ONE murder, how much pent up anger is building for 50 million plus American lives? As a nation we should ALL be at least figuratively in sack cloth and ashes repenting of this great evil. Every time we vote in another pro-choice politician we add to the debt of blood which cries out to be paid. Yet, it is estimated that only somewhere about 1/3 of America is even aware… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

My little boy’s first experience with scissors was cutting brightly colored construction paper to make a Mother’s Day card.

THAT’S what scissors are for, Cecile.

Ben
Guest
Ben

We are not an “abortion nation,” Doug. As I’ve explained on here before, nations do not exist. There are some people in this particular part of the world who love abortion, and some who hate it. Let’s not lump these two groups together with needless, God-hating artificial constructs like “nations.” They are evil, we are decent (not in the theological TULIP sense of course). It is in the interests of the murdering deviants that we keep holding to these collectivist beliefs, using words like “we” instead of “you all” or “they.” By lumping ourselves in with them, and thereby engaging… Read more »

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

I am sorry, but I have never heard that nations do not exist. Is there some scriptural basis you could cite for your statement, or is it just your considered opinion? I am truly wanting to hear your reasoning. Thanks.

Ben
Guest
Ben

There is no standard whereby we can say “this particular geographical location is one country, and that location next to it is another country.” Borders are artificial and constantly changing. What if all the people in my church decide to start our own country on church property? Why is this effort not legitimate? It’s really just an existential problem. God has not come down and given us stone tablets with the borders of the “nations” written on them. Therefore, how are we to know which countries are legit and which are not? Ancient Israel of course would be the one… Read more »

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Nations aren’t defined by particular geography because nations are by definition groups of people. The nation of Israel existed even before it took any land in Canaan. National governments do reach agreements with other governments to define geographical borders in order to avoid conflict (these standards are often referred to as “treaties”).

Ben
Guest
Ben

OK, so what criteria do you use to separate the “nations” if they are only just groups of people? Is it by religion, language, sexual orientation, political views, etc.?

Carson Spratt
Member

I think one easy way to define a nation would be to point to a common government system. Everyone under the authority of a particular government system belongs to that nation. If you’re American, you submit to the Federal Government, and to your state government.

Ben
Guest
Ben

But the question I’m asking is where does that government legitimately get its authority? If Doug and his church decided to form their own nation on their property and refuse to consider themselves a part of the U.S. any longer, would such an endeavor not be legitimate? (Btw, I might consider joining such a nation myself.)

Matt Massingilll
Guest
Matt Massingilll

You exist. Your body has parameters, and yet, if you lose your arm in an accident, or, if you have your tonsils removed, or, if the cells in your body replace themselves every so often, as cells do, or, if you develop a benign or malignant tumor, or, if your muscles atrophy, and on an on, then well, are we going to deny the reality of the thing b/c the parameters (like borders) are “constantly changing”? Now, that deals with the flux aspect, but admittedly it doesn’t deal with the artificiality aspect. It’s true that nations/nation states might not be… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

“…universities, baseball franchises, Rotary Clubs, gangs, school dances, business partnerships, Disney World, county fairs, the GOP, the Marine Corps…..” The key difference is that these things are not coercive. People form and join these associations voluntarily (excepting the marines and gangs in some instances). Let me ask you this: Suppose a few people in your neighborhood decide to declare the neighborhood a new and separate nation, forcing everyone in the neighborhood to pay taxes and building a wall to keep anyone from going in and out. Are you really going to tell me that this “nation” exists in the same… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

Wait a minute. . . Whether a particular claim of authority or power is legitimate or not – is a distinct question from whether an entity exists. You said nations don’t exist. Your distinction between nations and these other organizations is true enough, but the distinction is in response to a point I’m not making. I’m not suggesting that the Boy Scouts or the local Jaycees claim equivalent authority to a nation – I am merely saying that their existence does not depend on whether or not their authority is legitimate. We have to at least be able to converse… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

“But France’s non-existence doesn’t follow from the conclusion that he neighborhood nation is a mere pipe dream.” Why not? What is fundamentally different about that neighborhood and France? What makes the neighborhood example an “outlier?” Size? Organization? If you can’t demonstrate with specific criteria why there is an existential difference between the two, then you’ve already conceded my point, as you referred to the neighborhood situation as a pipe dream. I also believe that France is a pipe dream. Yes of course states, cities, municipalities, etc., don’t exist either. That logically follows from my assertions that nations don’t exist, because… Read more »

Tom
Guest
Tom

That is utterly ludicrous: this doesn’t exist because I say so.

Ben
Guest
Ben

A little quiz:
Which of the following things exist?

1. a tree
2. a forest
3. a person
4. a crowd
5. a guy with a gun, a badge, and a uniform
6. a police department
7. a kid with a notebook and pencil
8. a class
9. a guy with pads and a uniform
10. a football team
11. a person who kills babies
12. Planned Parenthood
13. a thief
14. Congress

This is kind of a fun exercise.

Tom
Guest
Tom

All of the above.

Ben
Guest
Ben

Sorry, you missed half. That’s a 50% for you.

Tom
Guest
Tom

That would require me to grant your premise, and your premise is silly.

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

I think you are confusing discreetness with existence. You seem to think that in those cases, the individual constituent is real (tree, person), while the aggregate is not (forest, crowd). But why does the aggregate-ness of the aggregate (i.e. the non-discreetness of the aggregate), necessitate the non-existence of the aggregate. Now, I don’t deny that the aggregate in these cases is dependent on, and derived from, the existence of the discreet individuals, but this doesn’t change anything. If one claims that aggregates and associations are real in a way that is independent of, and not dependent on their constituent parts,… Read more »

Jane
Member

Quick example (agreeing with Tom): I can either be in a forest, or not a in forest. The fact of being in or not a forest is a real thing, and has real ramifications. But I am not in a forest simply because I am near a tree, or even several trees. I am either in a forest or not in the forest based on my proximity to a thing that has its own definition, that is either near me by some measure, or not. Same goes for a crowd. There are currently roughly 100,000 people in the city I… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

Well, we do agree on one thing . . . namely that we ought not be engaged in civil religion, state-worship, – and that we shouldn’t prioritize American exceptionalism or anything like that over obedience and faithfulness to Yahweh. I would qualify it by saying that to the extent that “making America great again,” is properly subsumed under the overarching obligation of faithfulness, then it’s fine. But obviously, in our modern context of civil religion, that’s not how most references to it are couched or intended. But I would rather correct the nationalistic impulse, making it a captive thought to… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

Or, in that last paragraph, I should say, that to interpret that distinction as acknowledging the claim of non-existence is to refuse to permit mere differing connotations. Calling the neighborhood a pipe dream isn’t my equivalent of your claim that France doesn’t exist, it’s more of the equivalent of the U.S.’s refusal to recognize the PLO, which is not the same as denying it’s existence. SO, if the neighborhood nation over time became large, powerful, and globally involved in the same way nations do, then one might at some point diplomatically recognize the erstwhile neighborhood group while still claim the… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Perhaps a little taxonomy will assist here? What the civil law calls “corporeal” and “incorporeal” (does it have a body?), the common law calls “tangible” and “intangible.” Civilians will say, “An incorporeal is a thing comprehended only by understanding.” The Boy Scouts are an incorporeal. (They are also an intangible.) So are General Mills, General Motors, and General Electric. So is a trademark or a copyright. So is the college at which Pastor Doug teaches. But they are nonetheless quite real. They all have “juridical personality.” That means they can sue and be sued, etc. Some very smart people have… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

But I had nothing to do with those drone strikes, yet I am still a part of the U.S. according to the typical logic. This doesn’t make sense. The problem is that we conflate the ruling class with the slave population. That’s why we’re even today capable of justifying the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, because those people were part of “Japan,” and “Japan” was our enemy. In reality, those innocent people were just as much a victim of the Japanese ruling class as we were.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Out the door rest of day, but I’ll leave you with a bone to gnaw on. Back late tonight . . . . “But I had nothing to do with those drone strikes” Really. Not everyone shares your view of your innocence and non-involvement. In fact, some not-broke, not-stupid, and not faithless people are working very hard to not just topple the gummit of which you aren’t a part, but also to kill you to boot – – unless you convert. While I’m still not taking your Hiroshima bait, I will instead give you the opportunity to learn why the… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

Is Adam your federal head? Is this the case even though you did not hand him the fruit or eat it yourself? What about Christ, did you die on Calvary? And yet He represents us, right? But we did not atone by our act, and yet are in Him. Now, I’m not suggesting that Adam (or Christ) as a federal head is exactly and exhaustively equivalent in every way as that of our representation by our political leaders. But it doesn’t have to be exactly the same for the point to stand, b/c in fact Doug is not claiming that… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

So while Adam’s headship is not the same kind of representation in every way as our national leaders (it’s obviously much different in many ways) – the point still stands that a lack of personal, involvement does not undo the reality of some sort of representation within a corporate body. The devil is obviously in the details, of course, band a debate could be had about what the exact implications of this are, but one thing is clear – the corporate implications are not “absolutely nothing,” on the grounds that Joe Blow American did not, himself, commit abortions or become… Read more »

David Trounce
Guest

Ben, I think I get what you are saying. America is not the people of God in the way Nehemiah or Daniel – weeping over and confessing sin they didn’t personally commit – were.

Perhaps we are to the USA what Jonah was to Nineveh.

But, the bible mentions nations and even has promises for them.

Help me out here.

Ben
Guest
Ben

The Bible mentions slavery and treats it as a legitimate enterprise, even though it is of course no such thing, and in fact doesn’t even exist. It’s just kidnapping. I’m not sure why the Bible talks about evil institutions like slavery and nations as if they did exist, and I know Doug has done some work on the slavery issue, positing the theory that God was subtly subverting the institution by not calling for its outright abolition in the Bible. Perhaps it’s the same with nations. It could also be that speaking in terms of nations is comprehensible to the… Read more »

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Yes. For Peter’s sake read Revelation 21.

Ben
Guest
Ben

So those nations will continue to exist as nations after entering the heavenly city? I don’t see that there.

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Rev. 21:24 “By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.” Not only will there be nations, but kings underneath Christ will exist as well. If earthly kings don’t cease to exist even when Christ institutes His kingdom clearly nations will continue to exist as well. But even if you are right that nations will be dissolved or amalgamated once the New Jerusalem comes, you’ve admitted they exist now. Thus we can praise current and past godly nations and condemn current and past sinful nations coherently and righteously, which was… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

Well, as I stated before, the Bible talks about them as if they do exist in the same way that it talks about slavery. Perhaps “nation” in these texts could be referring to non-tyrannical associations, i.e. ones where people are not subjected to taxation, but rather fund the governing authorities through voluntary contributions. When I say “nation” I’m referring to an artificial geographical boundary with a political ruling class who uses violence against innocent people (both within and outside of its borders) to maintain its power. Every “nation” in history has met this criteria, except of course ancient Israel because… Read more »

David Trounce
Guest

I would say yes. But, even if not, I would maintain that they certainly exist now.

Can I ask you another question? When Paul said he was a Roman citizen, what do you think Paul thought he was a citizen of?

Ben
Guest
Ben

He would say that he was a citizen of an evil collective run by violent, God-hating men. In the same way I say that I’m a citizen of the U.S. so that I can work and have a driver’s license, Paul would say he was a citizen of Rome so that he could get a fair hearing. It doesn’t make it true in any absolute cosmic sense though, does it?

David Trounce
Guest

OK, so, above you mentioned, “.. large chunks of people with more or less similar cultures”. I assume by this that you believe in the existence of large chunks of people with more or less similar cultures. What would you call those large chunks? If God referred to them as nations and even threatened to judge them as though they existed, why may not we? “And large chunks of people with more or less similar cultures will rise up against large chunks of people with more or less similar cultures…” Ben, I am having a bit of fun here but… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

I mean, if we want the word “nation” to mean “a large chunk of people with a similar culture,” then that’s fine by me. Something like that of course does exist. But in the current paradigm, inherent in the term “nation” is the idea that there be a political ruling class that extracts from the people within that chunk. I don’t believe such a political ruling class is legitimate, and therefore, such a social construct as nation (in the current paradigm) does not exist. Here’s another way to look at it: If we were able to change the system to… Read more »

Carson Spratt
Member

Ben, saying something is illegitimate, and saying that something doesn’t exist are not synonymous. Sin is illegitimate. Sin also exists. Nations may not be legitimate: but even if they aren’t, how can you allege that they don’t exist? Just because you don’t want them to exist doesn’t mean they don’t.

Ben
Guest
Ben

So if all the people in my church decide to form a new nation on our church property, does that nation exist? Why not?

David Trounce
Guest

Thanks. What would you call – or what would you do with – those Pacific island nations that don’t have a ruling class or taxation but live as a kind of collective identity?

“And by its light the non-tyrannical associations where people are not subjected to taxation, but rather fund the governing authorities through voluntary contributions will walk.”

Sorry, but it’s too much fun to resist.

Ben
Guest
Ben

Do those nations really not a have a ruling class at all? I’d be very surprised by that. If you’re right though, then I’d say they’ve got the right idea. By the way, would not those nations also be included in the city of Jerusalem (assuming they’re saved) at the consummation of the kingdom? Does the fact that they’re not coercive somehow exclude them from being defined as a nation Biblically? If not, then I’m willing to meet you half way on this issue and say that man-made collectives don’t NECESSARILY have to have a ruling class in order to… Read more »

David Trounce
Guest

Thanks for answering my questions, Ben.

I think that since, according to the Apostle Paul, God ordains Governments (presumably with authority over a group of people) and since, according to Paul the boundaries of those people’s existence is set by God, and since God intends to judge such entities, we can safely assume that such groups and governments are more than just man made illusions.

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

A nation is a group of people of common culture and genetic lineage like the Navajo Nation. A political entity that rules over many groups of such people is an empire. The US government is a world spanning empire.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

Never mind. I checked your profile and read several more of your posts. I see where you are coming from. Your anarcho-capitalist form of libertarianism is of no interest to me. Thanks.

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Nations are God-ordained you heretic. He separated the nations at Babel (Gen. 11) and chose one for Himself through Abraham (Gen. 12). He will redeem believers from all nations (Matt. 28:19)–and these nations will exist in perpetuity (Rev. 7:9, Rev. 21:24).

ashv
Guest
ashv

Nations exist. Peoples exist. Families exist. To deny this is to deny the testimony of scripture.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

On target. Ben, however, is a self described Anarcho-Capitalist Libertarian. Meaning among other things that a “legitimate” government is funded voluntarily, and does not punish non-agressive non-violent crimes, such as prostitution, and drug dealing (from his list). How this is all supposed to align with scriptural thought, I have no idea.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I used to be like that; fortunately I read too much Chesterton to stay there. :)

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

:)

Ben
Guest
Ben

You’re talking about throwing people in prison for certain nonviolent behaviors, where they will be raped over and over. You’re advocating violence against nonviolent people. How does THAT line up with scripture? Moreover, if prison rape is a God-honoring and equitable punishment for selling pot, then why wouldn’t it also be for selling alcohol, which can also intoxicate you?

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

The US of A is an idea, not a place. We are the first nation designed from scratch. All prior nations (more of a sociological concept than a legal one) were collections of similar ethnicity and faith. Israel was not designed; they copied the pagans in asking for a king.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

Jeremiah 5:28…They know no bounds in deeds of evil;
they judge not with justice
the cause of the fatherless, to make it prosper,
and they do not defend the rights of the needy.
29 Shall I not punish them for these things?
declares the Lord,
and shall I not avenge myself
on a nation such as this?”

This was God talking about punishing a “Nation” who governed immorally.

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

Ben, while you were arguing about definitions of the term “nation” and promoting a seemingly anarchistic political view, several dozen children were killed nationwide.

I’m trying to assume that the value of your point is greater than the distraction to the real issue here…

Ben
Guest
Ben

But I blame the government primarily for the killings. If we eliminated the government, there would be far fewer such heinous acts.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

“Every man does what is right in his own eyes.” God had a response to that paradigm. Ask Noah why he built the ark.

Ben
Guest
Ben

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. I’m guessing you’re conflating anarchism with chaos.

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

You said, “But I blame the government primarily for the killings. If we eliminated the government, there would be far fewer heinous acts.” Without government I said, “Every man does what is right in his own eyes.” Anarchy: noun 1. a state of society without government or law. 2.political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: Synonyms: lawlessness, disruption, turmoil. 3.anarchism (def 1). 4.lack of obedience to an authority; insubordination: 5. confusion and disorder Synonyms: lawlessness, disruption, turmoil, confusion, disorder i.e every man does what is right in his own eyes. It is government (external controls) that… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

Anarchy literally means “without rulers.” It doesn’t mean “without rules.” It certainly doesn’t mean “chaos,” though that’s a common idea associated with it due to propaganda. I’ve never said I was against governing authorities per se. Governing authorities are necessary, and respect for them seems to be biblically mandated. I’m simply against those authorities which are funded by coercion.

Kavveh-El
Guest
Kavveh-El

Well, it would seem to follow that governments do not exist. There are some people in particular structures who are for killing innocent children and others who hate the idea.

ashv
Guest
ashv

It’s time to put “DEUS VULT” back in our vocabulary.

Bill Ashbless
Guest
Bill Ashbless

“Abortion stops a beating heart. Well, sometimes it doesn’t. But we can fix that.”

Christ, have mercy…

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

I once saw a study (more than 25 years ago) that estimated the “lost” GDP due to abortion. Just using simple math…55 million abortions….using 30 million having reached working age. average worker producing $200,000 in good and services. We are looking at 6 TRILLION dollars not subject to income taxes (lost revenue to government) to say nothing of a 6 Trillion dollar lift to the economy in general. And 200k per year per worker I believe is on the low side. Has anyone seen a recent study along these lines?

Ben
Guest
Ben

I would dispute the $200,000 in productivity figure. Women who have abortions are, I would imagine, on the lower end of the IQ bell curve (though I don’t have proof of this) and many of them (if not most) are welfare recipients, which means their children will tend toward that kind of lifestyle as well. Not that we shouldn’t try to save those babies anyway.

Matthew Abate
Guest
Matthew Abate

CNN reported on its website earlier this morning that StemExpress has severed ties with Planned Parenthood last week. This seems to be an attempt to cut their losses, excuse the pun. Companies like StemExpress and Novogenix Laboratories need to remain in the line of fire right alongside PP. This whole atrocity grows out of a large, medical, industrial complex right here inside of our nation. According to some of the earlier CMP videos, academic institutions like the University of California – San Francisco and Colorado St. University are in league with PP, StemExpress, Novogenix, and who knows who else… Here’s… Read more »

David Trounce
Guest

And, I would add that as the investigations occur and then lead to nothing, we need to keep the pressure on sponsoring groups like Johnson and Johnson, Disney, etc.

Let’s not rely on Governor or Senate.

duellsquimby
Member

That is what they stated, but now I’m starting to wonder if its all a bit of smoke and mirrors. Sometimes all what can be undone is redone when no one is looking.

http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/2015/08/cmp-statement-on-alleged-split-between-planned-parenthood-and-stemexpress/

Ryan E
Guest
Ryan E

Why isn’t using Health Share Ministries, as opposed to typical medical insurance, being discussed more as one weapon to combat the abortion industry? If believers were to pull their funds from insurance companies, who provide funding for these nightmarish procedures, couldn’t this really do some damage to the industry? It’s not the “silver bullet” by any means but it could really do some damage!!??

A. James
Member

I’ve mentioned it (Good Samaritan, Medi-Share…more joining the HHS Mandate/SCOTUS battle…)
there was silence :)
It’s certainly one way remaining where our dollars don’t go in the way of abortifacients and abortions.
Maybe it’s just easier to hashtag…believing the distance from the crime is safe enough or something…I haven’t quite figured it out…
I don’t know if it would do damage or not…just like hindsight will be with sharing the videos, etc….but like with sharing the videos, etc. it’s something we can do.

Ryan E
Guest
Ryan E

Ill be sure to keep mentioning it when ever I can!! And thanks for the feedback!!
http://www.canonwired.com/featured/ask-doug-what-about-healthcare-sharing-ministries/

A. James
Member

I had not seen that before. Wow. Make my day. “Obamacare victim” LOL :)
Was getting the Elijah syndrome about it lately, and have yet to understand why there wasn’t a mass exodus to the alternatives :)
Thanks so much.

Ellen
Guest
Ellen

The body parts industry is huge and there’s lot of money involved. I wonder if that has anything to do with the decision by the U.S. government to continue funding PP? Or is it just that the politicians believe most Americans haven’t been paying attention to the revelations, expect the outrage to subside and leave most of their voters still supportive of PP? What companies have been lobbying for PP?

I suspect there is a very interesting trail to follow through Washington.

Ben
Guest
Ben

I think the interests of PP and the politicians are far too intertwined for one to throw the other under the bus. The government has given PP billions and Obama has actually said “God bless Planned Parenthood.” It would make them look bad to do a 180. But yes, the politicians know that the American public is fickle and that the attention and interest in this issue will eventually subside. After all, what kind of person would be fine with PP killing children but somehow get outraged when it turns out they also sell body parts? Not the kind of… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Got an e-blast; “Ever notice that the very same people who told Tim Tebow to keep his religion to himself are telling Caitland to keep speaking out?”

Deez Nuts is fake, that Rachael NAACP prez was fake, the BLM guy is fake, Bruce at least admits he’s pretending, but PP isn’t selling anything. Maybe they can just wipe the scissors with Hillary’s cloth?

Katecho
Member

Not everyone is going to get the reference to Hillary’s cloth, but the imagery is powerful. Well said.

David Trounce
Guest

This from Matt Walsh on the fading interest and revolting scandal. Blunt and forceful.
http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/if-you-still-support-planned-parenthood-you-are-simply-not-a-decent-person/

timothy
Guest
timothy

If God brought nation ending judgement on America today, who would say America did not deserve it?
Quick show of hands.

That is what being cast into hell is like. It is the profound knowledge that God is just and God is good and God is holy and that no unrepentant man can stand before Him. America condemns herself.

denise
Guest
denise

Maybe not exactly on topic, but, we also live in a culture that now finds pregnant women’s bodies disgusting and embarrassing. Women who have large families are shamed in social media. There is a very rabid negative mindset about pregnancy and childbirth in general.

John
Member

I saw a blog from, I believe it was Pastor Sumter (not positive), but he said we have really just blown this opportunity the videos provided. Some of us may have posted something on the FB page of a company that supports PP, or written to their congressman. But by and large we are back to “normal” and our “outrage” consists of pressing the “like” button on an anti abortion site on FB. And he is right. The outrage in Christian circles is declining, The “conservatives” in Congress don’t care and PP continues to murder babies and sell their parts.… Read more »

Phillip A
Guest
Phillip A

If you took all the skulls of all the babies aborted since Roe and set them side by side, that mournful line would reach from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and probably part way back. Now, this is just factually incorrect. Most abortions occur far before 20 weeks, but let’s assume for the sake of argument that every one of the 57.8 million abortions that have occurred since Roe happened at 20 weeks. According to a chart on this page, the average head circumference of a 20 week fetus is 175 mm. Assuming the head is roughly spherical, using some… Read more »

aztomt
Member

I’m sure if Pastor Wilson had taken the time to do the math, he wouldn’t have made this error. But then, I guess you haven’t read him enough to understand how he writes – with vivid and striking metaphors and word play and hyperbole. It’s about language skills, not math skills. It’s good and effective communication. Besides, the distance doesn’t matter, does it? 58 million not a big enough number for you?

A. James
Member

“good and effective communication” is an opinion…subjective. i’ve read him for 2 months now…and I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t appreciate his thoughts and style for the most part…but the alleged hyperbole on such serious or temptation type topics, yes, are a confusing distraction. (and I’m thankful for Phillip’s math work…I was originally taking it at face value…so there’s nothing wrong with getting the math facts right should some of us go to quoting him as if “it is so”). speaking of hyperbole (little off topic here, and not directed to you specifically…but for sake of finding a right… Read more »

Ryan E
Guest
Ryan E

Remember…Healthcare Sharing Ministries can be another weapon to combat the abortion industry!!!
http://www.canonwired.com/featured/ask-doug-what-about-healthcare-sharing-ministries/

A. James
Member

:D (Watch out below in the Land Down Under, David T, I’m dropping links…)
http://samaritanministries.org/
https://mychristiancare.org/exemption.aspx
http://www.healthcaresharing.org/hcsm/

Ryan E
Guest
Ryan E

Thanks Alex!!!

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil… Not to speak is to speak. Not to act, is to act.” [Bonhoeffer]

David Trounce
Guest

Thanks for the trigger warning, Alex. My eye caught it just in the nick of time.

Never the less, multiple, unrelated links or links that don’t add something new to the conversation will be removed along with the one who put them there.

A. James
Member

?
Are you saying they didn’t relate to Ryan’s comment? And that they didn’t relate to each other?

Are you saying we can’t talk about something again if we are led to?

Are you saying you are the moderator and will remove my comment or block me from commenting?
?

rungeeric
Member
rungeeric

Abortion and sexual sin are two subheadings under one big cultural sin: the sexual revolution. The only way we will be able to repent of abortion is if we first repent of the reason we need abortions, and return to a Christian sexual morality that doesn’t get teen girls pregnant in the back seat of Camaro’s. Or Prius’s. The root has got to go, or else the fruit will stay.

The Canberean
Guest

Have a read of this one eyed article in The Canberra Times about the Republican Presidential nomination campaign and how abortion is the big issue. It gives you a good picture of how a large part of the mainstream media here sees things in the US.

Does this read like a straight reporting of the facts? Fairfax media down under is notoriously left wing.

http://goo.gl/IjZlqi

kentwarrenmcdonald
Member

Leans pretty heavily in favor of keeping Planned Parenthood alive.

A. James
Member

Ah, of Rooks and Queens…how interesting that the left wing says it is the big issue, but it doesn’t seem to be what most Christians are discussing per candidates if indeed it is what they believe to be the big issue… Interesting, too…it mentions the GOP having more “orthodox” choices this time…(compared to last time, I would agree though “politics” it may be)…yet many under the Christian name are acting as if Trump is the best we can get and even hope to get. Maybe that’s a tell-tale sign that the attraction to Trump (someone who used to not be… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Before lights out tomorrow I’ll post an answer to your Denver Airport/Chick-fil-A question from a few days back. Also to K2 since that’s the other JD on the board.

A. James
Member

I am quite far behind…emergency room situations (yes, two) this weekend. One involved a hornets’ nest…and it appears I might be getting into some hornets’ nests in some of these sub-threads, too, yikes, once I start typing–LOL :O Anyway, I’ll make sure I’ve read everything new since Friday evening (when franklinb23 flat out asked me about murder…that’s about where I dropped off…)…and after reading everything, then proceed to do my alleged duty of “running cover or running for cover, being offended, interjecting nonsense, and being a hardened contrarian” :D Since this doesn’t fit anywhere else too well, I did find… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

“Did you know I agree with Oberg? Now don ‘t faint. This is what I mean. Look at Oberg caring what the GOP candidates are thinking about the Oberg ruling/ ramifications.” No way can I faint. I’m too confused about “what you mean” to be able to faint. “Caring what the GOP candidates are thinking?” WAY lost on that rationale; how does that connect to anything in Ober? The Feds have a controlling interest – – not just in the status of a person (married or not?) – – but in the definition of what constitutes a marriage? After DOMA… Read more »

A. James
Member

P.S. Well, that makes me feel safe knowing there are carefully chosen sub-threads I can be involved in :) However, I may be too tired to be angry at myself, but I am rolling my eyes at myself. Precisely why I should have waited until tomorrow for a fresh start! I meant Jim Oberg himself specifically (post-ruling) caring individually what the GOP candidates are thinking about the Oberg ruling (post-ruling). I don’t mean that SCOTUS cared or cares about what the GOP candidates thought. No way. Never fear. I mean JimO himself in his opinion article asking questions about the… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Don’t be sorry. Especially don’t be “SORRY.” No one owes me any following. Old military saying; “Who died and left YOU in charge?” Instead, Christians are supposed to think, “He died and left us saved, if we open the door when he hear Him knocking.” Again, there is no “Kelly Seal of Approval.” My turn to surprise you. In and of itself, Ober is only a symptom. It’s not really the problem. It’s a sign of the deep decay of our society. And I’m NOT speaking to the sexual immorality aspect, either. The “sexual revolution” is not a problem, either.… Read more »

A. James
Member

This seems like longer than 4 days ago!!! Anyway, wanted to at least say thanks for not calling me an “Oberg defender” in the midst of the confusion but rather seeking clarification :) “My turn to surprise you. In and of itself, Ober is only a symptom. It’s not really the problem. It’s a sign of the deep decay of our society.” Truly, I fully understand and believe this. I don’t get into “faith circle” talks so much because I think we are so splintered in society and the church…that I’m mainly interested in seeing what kind of joint effort… Read more »