On Not Having a Cockroach Head

Allow me to say a few things about the polarization of our society, and the radicalization of some individuals out on the extreme edges. There are always extremists at all extremes—for that is who lives out there—but let me begin by addressing one that (some) would want to say is an extreme version of what I am articulating here in this responsible, law-abiding place.

For an example, I refer to Dylann Roof, who was recently found guilty of murder for the infamous Charleston church shooting, and was sentenced to die for it.milo

There are two things to keep track of here, and both of them are essential. Failure to keep track of them is why our culture has lost its bearings, and why everything is such a tangled knot of confusion.

The first is that you should determine what someone thinks about Dylann Roof’s crime by finding out what they think about his crime. The same goes for any other outrage. If an outrage is condemned, then accept the condemnation. If the outrage is overtly supported, then tag the supporters as those who are aiding and abetting outrages. If the outrage is superficially condemned and the subject is immediately changed to a discussion of “root causes,” then treat that coy response as it deserves. I certainly don’t mind discussing root causes, which could be profitable, but the discussion should wait until after the execution.

So if any were curious about my thoughts about Dylann Roof, I believe that what he did was horrendous, and I believe that he fully deserves to die for that crime. “Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil” (Eccl. 8:11, ESV). If you want more of that kind of evil, then you should ignore what Scripture teaches and turn him over to therapists. He is broken-boy enough that the therapists would have plenty to talk about—but that is not how God instructed us to deal with such criminals. If you want less of it, as I want less of it, then you should support the right of someone like Roof to receive a fair trial in open court and, if he is convicted, you should support his prompt execution.

If a man walks into a church, and shoots a bunch of people who were there to honor God, and you don’t know what you think of it until you find out what color everybody was, then congratulations—you are the root cause.

But the second thing we must grasp is something that will enable us even to see the first one. The current state of our public discourse has gotten pretty toxic. Instead of determining whether Smith agrees with Murphy, we settle for a Rorschach test approach, asking instead whether anything whatever about Smith reminds us of Murphy. This emotive reaction is whatIf a man walks into a church, and shoots a bunch of people who were there to honor God, and you don’t know what you think of it until you find out what color everybody was, then congratulations—you are the root cause. has enabled the most irresponsible attacks on responsible citizens. Take some member of the gentry and treat him as though he had a cockroach head and were disembarking from an alien spaceship. The most recent example of this was the attempt to smear Jeff Sessions as a racist. Not only was it evil, it also managed at the same time to be lame.

This is the problem. There is such a thing as principled conservatism that is neither reactionary nor bigoted. But if the reflex response from the left is to tag absolutely all those who are a disagreeable distance to their right (say, six inches) as though they were all an indistinguishable mass of misogyny, racism, homophobia, and more, then the thing giving credence to the alt-radicals is in fact the basic strategic play used by the left in all their current confrontations. Somebody says something and the left howls racist! So the alt-perp shrugs. These days who isn’t a racist? What does it mean to be a racist in a world where the bedwetters have turned racism into a meaningless term? It used to be that it was not a meaningless term, but now it is. Congratulations, hypers.

We had a host of useful distinctions to separate steady eddies from fever swamp goons. That is, we used to have them. Here is a question for the left, which I am sure they will struggle to answer. Name somebody, anybody, to the right of Mitt Romney that you would be willing to say isn’t a racist.

Change the image. Say that the mantra all these years wasn’t that mild conservatism = racism. Suppose rather that the equation was that mild conservatism = thievery. How many decades do you think you can accuse someone of thievery before some of them start thinking that if they are going to be hanged as a thief anyway, they might as well steal something? This is the way to create what you think you are condemning. So the resurgence of the extreme right is the doing of the left, not the responsible right.

You cannot make your made-up “micro-aggressions” and “white privileges” tantamount to being a midnight riding cross burner without simultaneously making it go the other way. Tantamounting is a two-way street. Didn’t you people ever take algebra? You cannot repeatedly equate normal things and extreme things without discovering, somewhat late in the day, that you have actually made extreme things into normal things.

This is a serious problem, but I don’t blame movement conservatives for it. The fault lies almost entirely with the left. When they do nothing but shout you down, tagging you—because you registered modest economic concerns about a raise in the minimum wage—with every vile crime that has been committed from Genghis on down, then this is going to create reactionaries where we did not have them before.

I speak from personal experience here. I have been called a racist more times than I can count, and there is absolutely no substance to it. I have been called that name by pagan unbelievers and by Christian thought-leaders. (We call them thought-leaders because they are so adept at thought-following.) One of the things they like to follow is this peculiar tactic of the left. Don’t like a position someone takes? Has any extremist ever taken a similar-sounding position? Flatten them all, blur every distinction, smudge it up hopelessly, and start calling names. Their condemnation is just.

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Carson Spratt
Member

Well written. I like your algebra analogy: it fits the bill perfectly. Thanks for writing!

trey
Member

Absolutely true!

Occidoxy
Guest

Leftists made the Right Alt-Right, but the Alt-Right made Pepé a Racist, so…

insanitybytes22
Member

First let me say, thank you for responding and for addressing Dylann Roof. That’s much appreciated. I don’t wish to sound snappish or impatient here, but Gah! The ship has left the dock two hours ago and you are simply stepping off into open water. The ship done sailed! Also, I think need a giant can of Raid. Why is so hard for me to explain causation, correlation? You do get this, right? Symbiosis,cause and effect? You do say of the Alt-Right, of racism, “The fault lies almost entirely with the left.” Wouldn’t the same be true in the reverse?… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

Is it possible that the left exists in rebellion against the ugliness of the alt-right?

Wet streets cause rain.

Katecho
Member

Some people in Jesus’ day would have accused Him and His disciples of radicalizing young men too. Of course the Disciples (and Wilson) would denounce race-based violence and abuse of women, but would this have satisfied ME? She seems to be reasoning that, if a message is too upsetting or threatening to the reigning system, and if it might be used as fuel by the zealots, then it only invites a tumultuous overthrow, and so the Gospel should be set aside as dangerous rhetoric. Jesus seems to have already responded to this concern by saying: “Do not think that I… Read more »

Steve
Guest
Steve

My guess is that most Christians don’t make the Daily Stormer part of their daily news intake. What do you mean “what is the Christian response” to that?

It appears to me that you assume that the readers of Mr. Wilson’s blog would think she got what she deserved for dating a black man, is that right? No, she didn’t deserve what happened and it was BAD. It seems that he did it because he was jealous and violent, not because he was trying to protect the honor of complimentarianism.

insanitybytes22
Member

“My guess is that most Christians don’t make the Daily Stormer part of their daily news intake….”

Well, thank you for your “guessing.” Since “most” Christians don’t read it, the fact that “many” do, now no longer matters at all. Poof, problem solved.

Steve
Guest
Steve

That was sarcasm. I was understating in an attempt to be mildly ironic which was lost on you, apparently. If it makes you feel better to think that I provided proof that MANY Christians read the Daily Stormer as part of their daily news intake, so be it.

I’m glad an unknown internet entity named “Steve” was able to provide you with the facts you needed to solve this mystery.

Disclaimer: There might have been more sarcasm involved in this post.

adad0
Member

Matthew 7 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

I am not willing to tolerate those who claim Jesus Christ’s name and yet refuse to name evil for what it is. And no, the evil is not Marxism, feminism, or Liberalism. Those are all smoke screens. I’m speaking of Wilson and other Christian men right here on this very board reading comments that condone actual racism, that glorify violence towards women, without saying a word. That shows a lack of natural affection that I find downright repulsive. To find Wilson’s words on Vox Day’s website, Dalrocks, and to know he is aware of this, that he does not care… Read more »

adad0
Member

Well Memi, there are more than two options on issues like these. I can be against something spoken here or there, and at the same time not dignify it with a response. As for the fringe commenters here, engaging them has its’ limits. But worry not Memi, I am on higher ground, not middle ground. I am not making nice with evil. I am standing on The Word, and not falling for anything. Who’s to say there is no Glory in that? ; – ) Proverbs 27:22 Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding them like grain with… Read more »

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

“Fringe” commenters, Don’t the majority of folks fit that description around here?

adad0
Member

2. “But the second thing we must grasp is something that will enable us even to see the first one. The current state of our public discourse has gotten pretty toxic. Instead of determining whether Smith agrees with Murphy, we settle for a Rorschach test approach, asking instead whether anything whatever about Smith reminds us of Murphy.”

Or, to spell it out:

“…asking instead whether anything whatever about Dufton reminds us of Grifith.”

AKA, Darlene proves the rule! : – )

Please chuckle my dear, you walked yourself right in to that one!

; – )

(Is it just me or was this Dunsworth-like?)

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

Ah…you are soooo brilliant. I think the prevailing atmosphere here at Blog and Mablog has become so insular that objectivity has virtually been lost.

adad0
Member

“…asking instead whether anything whatever about objectivity reminds us of….

Oh! never mind! ; – )

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think you are making an important point here. We are so insanely polarized that a statement like “If your wife has the flu, give her a hand with the kids” is taken by BDash to mean “Throw away 2000 years of Christian teaching and abdicate your manhood,” while something as honestly debatable as “What makes monsters like Dylann Roof” becomes a declaration of war on people who think that even lunatics have a right to vent their horrible opinions on the net without being accused of complicity in mass murder. I have wondered if one reason Doug Wilson doesn’t… Read more »

Jane
Member

I agree with your take, but I’d quibble with one of your examples — I don’t think BDash is a product of “insane polarization,” I think he’s just a troll, or a very young person who thinks that believing something strongly requires believing the most extreme version of it, and believing that anyone who doesn’t wholeheartedly accept that version represents the most extreme caricature of the opposite that you can imagine. We’ve always had both of those. However, that guy who showed up on the “Fear of Women” thread, claimed housework is a breeze, and then deleted his account probably… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Yes, I agree. Although I tend to envision him as elderly!

Jane
Member

Also, I think that Wilson’s aims here are to his congregation first, and also to his readers, to paraphrase the apostle. :-) And I’ll bet he doesn’t have a lot of people in his congregation who just love the women-haters or interact with them much, so he doesn’t make that a focus. He deals with the stuff that he sees in real life first.

adad0
Member

I stole the idea from God Jilly! ; – )

He is remarkably silent on my fashion choices,
and even my individual stupid mistakes! ; – )

But seriously, it is more than possible to give evil too much cred.
Once you know evil is out there, and what to watch out for,
ignoreing evil is often a good course.
Unless of course, you are led to expose it! ; – )

bethyada
Member

But how can Wilson stop that. Questionable sites quote Jesus’ words. Jesus is hardly to blame for that.

adad0
Member

Here is one way:

Matthew 15:13-14
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[a] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

insanitybytes22
Member

Questionable sites quote WILSON’S words in order to validate their own ugliness.

Jane
Member

Questionable sites quote THE BIBLE in order to validate themselves, too.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I don’t understand the thinking here. Nobody is to blame for wicked people taking someone’s words and quoting them as they do twisted and evil deeds. I honestly don’t think Doug finds it necessary to warn the typical men who come there that, unless they are very, very careful in how they conduct their marriages, they will find themselves wanting to throw acid at their wives. Nor do I think he needs to insult us all by reminding us that it is sinful to let racism, sexism, feminism or any other ism lead us to go on shooting rampages. The… Read more »

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

You keep mentioning Dalrock as an offensive figure. The most justification you give for this is saying “And here is Dalrock doing the same, while adding some extra emphasis on the permanently cursed Eve who I assume he believes pretty much deserves whatever she gets for all of eternity?” Setting aside for the moment that you didn’t even summarize his point correctly (in that the linked article says nothing about the curse, but rather about specific temptations for men and women)… I challenge you to back up your assumption that Dalrock believes Eve “pretty much deserves whatever she gets for… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

“I challenge you to back up your assumption that Dalrock believes Eve “pretty much deserves whatever she gets for all of eternity.”

I’ve backed up that claim in several blog posts over the years and even a few conversations with Dalrock himself. So no, I will not be revisiting what has already been clearly covered and established.

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

Perhaps a link to where you’ve backed it up?

insanitybytes22
Member

I’m really not interested in playing linky games while we argue about Dalrock’s repeated woman bashing which you apparently can’t see.

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

Ah, c’mon. I’m not asking for an argument about general “repeated woman bashing.” You made a specific claim (though at first you hedged by calling it an assumption), and then claimed to have previously substantiated it. If you’ve already backed up the specific claim that Dalrock believes Eve “pretty much deserves whatever she gets for all of eternity,” then it should be pretty trivial to point it out.

Ian Miller
Member

As I said upthread, I am deeply troubled by the bigotry in the comments sections here. However, I have not seen glorification of violence towards women. Hatred of women (their mental capacity, moral capacity, rights, etc), but I don’t recall any of the comments actually saying something along the lines of, “Women should be physically or emotionally abused.” I’ve read these things elsewhere, and been sickened by them (the Biblical Gender Roles guy would be the biggest example that comes to mind), but I think I would recall something along those lines. Do I think that some of the commentors… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

Ian, I really appreciate that you are troubled by the bigotry you see. “I have not seen glorification of violence towards women. Hatred of women (their mental capacity, moral capacity, rights, etc), but I don’t recall…” When I speak of correlation, I am trying desperately to draw a picture of how bigotry and radicalization actually works. So when we hate someone, when we dehumanize them,they begin to take on the persona of a clump of cells. We always render someone subhuman, not human, as a precursor to justify our future violence towards them. This is why hatred of women (or… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I would agree that there does seem to be a correlation between hatred, dehumanization, and acts of violence. But specifically, I do not think the claim that comments here (at least the ones that are not deleted) actually take that step from dehumanization to violence. I don’t say this as a nit pick, but from a desire to help in the fight against the evil of bigotry. My own arguments have been weakened when I was not accurate and precise, and since I believe your cause (the hatred of bigotry against those of other races and of women) is just,… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

Well, perhaps some 90% of what we keyboard warriors spew forth is simply bluster, bravado, and venting. That may well serve to relive some pressure and not be such a bad thing. I can often discern the difference. People like Dylann Roof cannot however, they do not have that filter. So when someone like Vox Day praises someone like Anders Behring Breivik, he is speaking to such people and it is resonating. Then there is also the issue of faith, the way our words really matter, the way we have the power to speak life. So the idea that, “I’m… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I don’t want to downplay the importance of individual or wide-spread radicalization – but I think correlation does not equal causation. I do not believe that violent videogames caused Columbine, nor do I believe that alt-right blogging caused Roof’s evil. Do I think that if left unchecked, alt-right blogging could lead to communities forming that practiced this kind of evil? Yes, which is why I’m on board with your hatred of the bigotry spewed. But I think it has to be accurate, and precise, or the hatred has just become, as Andrew Klavan says, the cocaine of anger, feeling like… Read more »

JP Stewart
Member

“Do I think that if left unchecked, alt-right blogging could lead to communities forming that practiced this kind of evil?” What about anti-white (often taught by self-loathing whites) propaganda taught on college campuses, and often in the MSM, Hollywood and pop culture? There have been black-on-white murders where the perpetrators said they’re hatred was fueled by college classes.

Ian Miller
Member

1) I am absolutely against the kind of poison you talk about. In this community, though, I take it as read (unless someone comes in and insists that we have to be salt and light by sending our kids to be slaughtered there).

2) I have not heard of these murders. Admittedly, I don’t listen to much news because I like not having rage in the car when I’m driving, but I do listen to Ben Shapiro and Andrew Klavan’s podcasts, and I think they would probably mention such murders?

JP Stewart
Member

Here it is, along with a couple of others you don’t hear about. Nkosi Thandiwe, black racist shot 3 white women “at random”, killing one, paralyzing another, incited by hatred of whites he was taught in college courses: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/4/convicted-killer-says-he-shot-3-white-women-becaus/ Omar Thornton shot 10 white co-workers, killing eight, in Hartford, Conn, in the worst mass shooting in Connecticut up to that time. He was caught on tape stealing from his white employer. He openly proclaimed his racial motivation. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/16/co-workers-upset-by-website-from-mother-of-shooter-in-beer-co-massacre/ The black DC snipers, John Mohammed and Malvo (a black Caribbean immigrant), per Malvo’s testimony deliberately were targeting whites in mostly white… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

These are indeed terrible crimes. But the spacing out indicates to me that it’s about on the level of someone like Roof’s crimes. That is to say, a problem, and not one I think should be propagated, but I don’t see either as widespread movements that we must eradicate with military might. (Also, the sniper attacks seem much more like radical Islamic terrorism than racial motives. Which, of course, is its own thing, but does seem to detract from your point.) But thank you for giving me that information – I do think that the media has kept these things… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

“What about anti-white (often taught by self-loathing whites) propaganda taught on college campuses, and often in the MSM, Hollywood and pop culture?”

What about it? You are just demonstrating ME and Ian’s point, and at the same time, ironically, asserting something that Ian denies.

JP Stewart
Member

No, you’re the one who completely missed the point, including the link I gave.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

I see no link in the comment to which I responded so whatever you’re talking about must be somewhere else, but it doesn’t matter. I’ll ask outright – *Do* you think unchecked, alt-right blogging could lead to communities, or individuals, that practice evil? Were you affirming that you do (and agreeing with ME on how it works) by pointing to anti-white propaganda that you say is linked to black on white murders, as an example? Do you assert that if MSM/Hollywood/pop culture propaganda leads to murder of white people by black people then some kind of turn about in which… Read more »

JP Stewart
Member

1) I suppose any kind of blogging or other media could lead to some kind of evil. Alt-right has a tiny audience and no known alt-right figure or commenter has ever harmed anyone. I’m much more concerned with propaganda pushed in gov’t schools, the MSM and pop culture that almost everyone sees every day. 2) Of course I don’t think “turn about” murders are fair play. You are missing the point. The point is that someone here has made dozens (maybe hundreds) of allegations and baseless assertions. Whenever she’s challenged to prove her points, she says she things like “I… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I think the real problem is with people like Biblical Gender Roles guy, who is actively promoting practical advice for how to abuse and show hatred to women in the guise of, well, Biblical Gender Roles. That’s exactly the kind of community that I’m talking about.

I would agree with you that the secular, God-hating society created by our caste schools is a much bigger problem – but that does not mean that the Biblical Gender Roles guy and his disciples are not doing great evil, just that it hurts fewer people.

JP Stewart
Member

I’ve never heard of the guy until this thread. I occasionally (quite rarely) read Dalrock, Cane Caldo and Christianity & Masculinity but never ran into BGR. His last post was June 23, 2015 until he posted something this past Friday. Maybe these comments brought him back from the dead. Either way, I don’t think his once-every-19 months posts or readers (all 14 of them) are much of a threat. There are much bigger fish to fry.

Ian Miller
Member

14 readers (15, counting himself) are still too many subjecting their families to evil. As I said, I agree that the problem of feminism is much larger – but I don’t think that means we are off the hook for making sure our own communities and allies are healthy.

JP Stewart
Member

If we’re going to make our own communities healthy, this should be led by someone of proven character. When I first challenged one of ME’s unsubstantiated claims, she launched into personal attacks immediately, and lumped me in with the worst of the manosphere. It’s only gone downhill since. She went after Jilly with such venom that Jilly asked her to stop communicating…something ME didn’t honor. This is the same Jilly who’s friendly with everyone, including 40 Acres, even though they disagree strongly on most things. The Bible tells us how to deal with both fools and contentious people. Proverbs is… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I don’t accept the us vs. them attitude of ME or yourself in this case. I agree with you in your charge of personal attacks from ME, and I do not support those, but I do not agree that this invalidates all of her arguments.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

She might of done all that, but just responding with a reference to the sins of left wing pop culture does come across as implying two wrongs make a right. Why not just condemn noxious propaganda regardless of from whence it comes or toward whom it is aimed? Even if the propaganda sources you’re most concerned about are as bad as all that it doesn’t change what is wrong with the alt-right one bit. You wouldn’t make me feel better about a family of head hunters across the street by pointing out there is an even bigger family of cannibals… Read more »

JP Stewart
Member

“I am not willing to tolerate those who claim Jesus Christ’s name and yet refuse to name evil for what it is.” Okay, I’ll take the challenge. It’s evil to continually disobey the 9th commandment: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” You’ve repeatedly done this. You made all sorts of false allegations about Dalrock and others who aren’t PUA types. You’ve done the same about people who post here, who merely asked for evidence of your accusations. You couldn’t back anything up. You only made vague references to PUA sites or people who comment on the blogs.… Read more »

ArwenB
Guest
ArwenB

ME, if having one’s words quoted on the sites you’ve mentioned is enough to condemn a person as repugnant and misogynist, etc…

…. then what does that make Martin Luther King Jr? They’ve quoted his words today.

insanitybytes22
Member

My issue is not that Wilson’s words are quoted anywhere at all, my issue is that Wilson’s words are often used as validation and justification for things that are actually an abomination. That alone is not an indictment against Wilson, but the fact that he choses to explain this FACT as basically “oh well, the left is to blame,” to me indicates a complete lack of moral accountability and a failure to to simply name evil for what it is. I want to address the radicalization of young men, how we go about reducing that grief and suffering in the… Read more »

Jane
Member

“My issue is not that Wilson’s words are quoted anywhere at all, my issue
is that Wilson’s words are often used as validation and justification
for things that are actually an abomination.”

Again, just like the Bible, when isolated from other quotations from the same source that would undercut the justification. Almost by definition, the most repugnant voices in the West are those who twist scripture rather than those who ignore or dismiss it, whether it’s Nazis, white supremacists, woman-haters, whatever. By analogy, is the quoted source the problem here?

insanitybytes22
Member

“By analogy, is the quoted source the problem here?”

Jesus Christ does not like His words being used to fuel hatred, bigotry, and abuse of women. Yeah, people who do that will face serious consequences.

Wilson apparently does not care or worse, he approves because after all, the left started the war. There is no excuse for that and you are simply spinning, weaving, and bobbing for him. I understand, I like to do that too, especially for Pastors, but there comes a point sometimes when spinning excuses for the inexcusable is just plain wrong.

Jane
Member

I’m spinning excuses because I’m disagreeing with you’re “He’s guilty because I said so” assertion.

Okay, fine.

insanitybytes22
Member

No, the problem is that you are so busy spinning for the man and trying to attack me, that you can’t even hear what is being said.

JP Stewart
Member

ME clearly stated that she doesn’t play “linky games.” No evidence needed…her word is proof.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I wish people took my word as proof like that. It would save me so much time looking stuff up on the Internet when I could be playing important games with the cats.

What did they used to tell us in debate class? Something like, If the facts are with you, pound the facts. If public opinion is with you, pound public opinion. And if neither is with you, pound the table. Or keyboard.

ArwenB
Guest
ArwenB

Is it possible that the left exists in rebellion against the ugliness of the alt-right?

Considering that the left predates the existence of the Alt-Right by … hmm… decades

No.

do Doug Wilson’s words tend to fuel the fringes of Alt Right (the “throw acid in their faces and bang hot Asian girls” alt-right branch)

That cohort think he’s a squishy moderate at best, so…

Also No.

ashv
Guest
ashv

There is such a thing as principled conservatism that is neither reactionary nor bigoted.

Maybe. But the window for that is closing. It doesn’t have much of a future.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Pastor Wilson, I very much appreciate that you are willing to continually highlight hypocrisies and the incoherent aspects of our secular America. You generally do it well, and I am grateful for that. But you continue to make the same mistake of pretending that the cause of the secular increase in our country was the fault of poor performance by “movement conservatives.” I am honestly not even sure what you mean by that phrase, but bible believing Christians should not want to conserve our system at all, a system that deifies the popular opinions of sinful men at the expense… Read more »

Katecho
Member

I agree that theonomy is inescapable, and that it is simply a question of which god will be worshipped, not whether. I would extend the same invitation to Durden that I did to Barnabas and ashv below (above?). Can Durden define conservatism in a way that would be recognized as such by those who embrace the label? Given the list of goals and principles affirmed by an organization that embraces the label of conservative, which does Durden have a reasoned biblical objection to, specifically? The reason I think this exercise is helpful is because it will underscore whether Durden is… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I responded to your post below before I read this. Also, I would never call myself a conservative in the American system. I am closer to something like a theocratic Christian radical, because this old man doesn’t care what people think about him much anymore. Another topic for another day, I suppose. But in short, I would say that whatever conservatives may say they stand for, the system is flawed from the ground up, and the proof of this is in the fact that this country started with a people who were very deeply Reformed in their thinking, and this… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member
John
Member

It’s a good thing the author is objective.

Katecho
Member

Ironically, ME expressed concern about Wilson as a radicalizing influence, meanwhile the author of the insanitybytes blog is saying things like: I think I shall change my approach from “Can we talk about this, will you help me? to something more akin to, “That’s Bloody Ugly, I Think I’ll Just Kill it With Fire.” The author’s approach to self-radicalization seems to be, well, self-radicalization. Wilson is rebuked for affirming that Roof should have gotten the death sentence. Wilson has apparently not done enough, but the author doesn’t hint at what she is prepared to do in her fevered state. Is… Read more »

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

“Wilson is not the pastor of the internet.”

Hip hip hooray! (3x)

bethyada
Member

I have read both Day and Wilson. The link the other day from Day was the first I have ever seen. To call him a fan seems questionable, I doubt he he read any of Wilson’s books and probably very little of his blog.

insanitybytes22
Member

Well, as long as this is the “first you’ve ever seen it ” and you “doubt” Vox has really read all of Wilson’s books, everything is JUST FINE NOW.

bethyada
Member

ME: The same Vox Day who just praised your own article Pastor Wilson, along with Dalrock and some of the others. In fact, you have a huge following among such guys. They often seem to like your words, and they seem to like using scripture to validate their feelings about racism and women. In this comment you claim that Day and others are huge followers of Wilson. My response about states that this is unlikely for Day given this is the first link I have seen and he has never quoted a book (and I have good reason to think… Read more »

John F. Kennedy
Guest
John F. Kennedy

It all comes back to the church…

Ian Miller
Member

I do think that the insane left bears responsiblity for people in the middle being led astray – but poisonous people like Vox Day are responsible for their own actions. I don’t think that it’s completely the responsibility of the name callers when the bullied snap and do evil – two wrongs, as they say, don’t make a right. And it seems that you are arguing in the case of the alt right and the insane left, they do.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

I’m not sure that the left actually cares if the “normal” are called racists. The agenda seems to be one of mixing everything together until you get a nice Van-Dyke brown. After all boundaries are fluid the work of thought control really begins.

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

“I have been called a racist more times than I can count, and there is absolutely no substance to it.”

Well, maybe, just maybe it’s because you, Mr. Wilson, wrote that despicable historical fiction titled “Black and Tan.”

Tim Fall was on to you, and so were many others. Talk about lacking any semblance of self-awareness.
https://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/05/05/douglas-wilson-tells-blacks-slavery-good/

ashv
Guest
ashv

What percentage of black children in America were raised by both parents in 1816?

What percentage of black children in America were raised by both parents in 2016?

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

In other words, let’s go back to the Good Old Days. At least you don’t attempt to cloak your racism with flowery, wordsmithing. I gotta hand it to ya!

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I wish I could be sure that there is no substance to any charge that I have racist attitudes. Making a conscious effort every waking day, I still find myself with thoughts that appall me. My comfort is that lovely song from Avenue Q:

Everyone’s a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn’t mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one’s really color blind.
Maybe it’s a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.

If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it’s wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.

Darlene Dufton Griffith
Guest
Darlene Dufton Griffith

There needs to be a bright, neon sign below Mr. Wilson’s article, flashing: AUTHOR OF “BLACK AND TAN.”

That about says it all.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I haven’t read it.

Is it bad?

adad0
Member

D’, here is what WIlson actually says, re: slavery. It’s right here on this site, in the “controversy library” section. That about says it all. ; – ) 2. I DENY THAT SLAVERY WAS A POSITIVE GOOD. Am I a defender of the system of Southern slavery as it existed prior to the Civil War? No, I am not. This is a false charge. In this post called “Leaven in the Flour”, I outline my position on slavery. “As Though the Gospel Had Cooties” provides a little intellectual background on how slavery got involved in this at all. “Potoked Again”… Read more »

Physiocrat
Guest
Physiocrat

You cannot absolve conservatives for all the problems here. Their turning of the belief into solely abstract principles which made little reference to culture and race hollowed out the movement- it also led to the making the world safe for democracy. Further their lipservice to free markets, essentially supporting corporatism, gave them a bad name and increased support for state control.

insanitybytes22
Member

Nightwind wrote a post in response to Wilson and he probably lays out the nature of the problem of radicalization with far more clarity then I can muster.

http://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2017/01/reply-to-pastor-doug-wilson.html

Matt
Guest
Matt

” When they do nothing but shout you down, tagging you—because you registered modest economic concerns about a raise in the minimum wage—with every vile crime that has been committed from Genghis on down, then this is going to create reactionaries where we did not have them before.” The irony is that this is basically a radicalization argument, such as is often heard applied by those of more liberal persuasions to the situation of Islamic extremists. Glad to hear everyone agrees on that now. It’s plausible that the overuse of “racist” diminishes the force of the accusation. It is much… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

The extreme right is doing something. This tweet-essay lays out the problems of the past year and the coming storm pretty well, I think:

https://storify.com/sphenoid/days-of-rage-pt-5-finale-what-does-it-portend

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think a constant accusation of racism does tend to create racists–mild, gentle-mannered ones, perhaps, but racists nonetheless. If nothing I say or do can dispell someone’s perception that I am racist, eventually I am going to stop trying. If a less than 100% commitment to affirmative action is taken to mean that David Duke and I are comrades in arms, eventually I am going to shrug and say “whatever.” Especially if is taken as axiomatic that I can’t change, and that my best efforts are merely further proof of my racist mind and soul. I wish we would retire… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

There’s a small but growing group of young men who think “fascist” means “throwing communists out of helicopters”.

Matt
Guest
Matt

You’ll say “whatever”, yes, but you won’t become David Duke’s comrade.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

No,I won’t, and I trust that I won’t start posting on websites about how minorities have wronged me. But, twenty years ago, an accusation of racism would have horrified me and caused me to search my conscience. Now, if the accusation came from a source I respect, it would still have the same effect. But, more usually today, I would be inclined to shrug it off. Because I have heard it too often, and in the absence of any real evidence that I can find when I search my conscience and conduct. If I am equally guilty of racism whether… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Can we add “won’t vote for pseudo-conservative demagogues” to the list of things you won’t start doing? :)

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I can safely promise you that!

ashv
Guest
ashv

Anybody who believes in equality (of any kind) or popular government (of any kind) isn’t “extreme right” anyhow. Of course, journalists regard anyone who disagrees with their clique as “extreme right”.

Racists aren’t made, they’re born. Being white is racist. (Most racists aren’t “extreme right”. White nationalists sure aren’t.)

Ian Miller
Member

What is the “extreme” right, then?

ashv
Guest
ashv

I’d start with Carlyle and Filmer and work it out from there. The losing side of the French and English revolutions.

Ian Miller
Member

So, would the closest to the extreme right today for you be the neoreactionaries?

ashv
Guest
ashv

Some of them.

Rebecca Peterson
Guest
Rebecca Peterson

“How many decades do you think you can accuse someone of thievery before some of them start thinking that if they are going to be hanged as a thief anyway, they might as well steal something?” One commentary that [I hope] has changed my life is Lloyd-Jones’ “Studies in the Sermon on the Mount.” In the Beatitudes section Lloyd-Jones explains that a large part of humility is a lack of a need to justify oneself. False accusations, for kingdom dwellers, run like water off a duck’s back. We are confident in our spiritual poverty. The backlash and new “intellectual” strains… Read more »