On Getting Your Grove Back

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Introduction

I said that I was going to follow up on the Grove City story, and so here I am, following up on it. Some people talk about keeping their word; others just go ahead and keep their word. Perhaps you know what I am trying to say. Because I got a lot of letters on this for the previous installment, I am opening comments on this point. Please keep your comments civil, on point, and I would particularly like to hear testimonies in defense of Grove City.

Since my first piece ran, a few things have happened. But first, if you need a refresher, here is my contribution to that first round, just below.

Since that time, if you have an account with The Daily Wire, you can read something that they published on all of this. Josh Abottoy, who wrote the initial piece for American Reformer, followed up with another article for The American Mind. And then we have this very revealing podcast put out by the Classical Learning Test, in which Jeremy Tate of CLT interviewed Lee Wishing of Grove City, Carl Trueman of Grove City, and Megan Basham, who wrote the Daily Wire piece.

The CLT podcast was particularly illuminating, if for no other reason than to illustrate how peopley and complicated these things can be. But however complicated it can get, our duties need to remain plain.

In the podcast, Megan Basham did an outstanding job of pursuing the actual issues at hand, Carl Trueman made a couple of really substantive points, and Lee Wishing was basically caught in an impossible situation. More on all that below.

There are four areas of concern that have been raised about the situation at Grove City. The first was an education class that had woke books in the syllabus, and nothing but woke books in the syllabus. The second issue was the line-up of woke speakers at chapel, radiating various meter-bouncing curies of wokeness. The third was the fact of multiple reports from students saying that the RA training there was also doing the wokey pokey. And the last issue has to do with the mere existence of a diversity office, and whether or not it had any involvement with the first three issues.

Megan Basham was gracious but firm, and kept the whole discussion from wandering off the point. Carl Trueman didn’t pretend to know anything about the particular allegations, and so was not there to testify about them, but he did make a couple of general points that were really valuable. One was his observation that any institution the size of Grove City is going to have management problems. As P.G. Wodehouse once put it, somebody is always up to something, and the rest of them are up to something else. The real test, Trueman said, will come in how the board and administration respond when something like this hits the fan. I believe this is exactly correct, and there will be more on this below. Everything rides on this, actually.

The second thing Trueman pointed out that was helpful was that the mere presence of dodgy books on a syllabus tells you nothing about the course. He cited some of his own classes, and I could add my own testimony to the same effect.

Another good point Trueman made, and which needs to be remembered, is that these things are all personnel issues, and as such have to be handled judiciously and deliberately. It would not be right to have an uproar over something, and to have somebody thrown off the sled to the howling wolves on the following Monday. I am against lynch mob justice wherever people might want to apply it. So Grove City cannot appease the parents by saying—following the lead of the wise woman of Abel-Beth-maachah—that the head of Sheba son of Bichri will be thrown to them over the wall (2 Sam. 20:21).

But Grove City can say that these allegations will be thoroughly investigated, and that if it is found that there was any level of wokeness involved in any of these incidents, the people found to have been responsible will be fired. They can say that.

And incidentally, in the meantime they also need to stop complaining about how the parents published their petition. All the concerned voices in this are concerned about substance, and it is the perennial temptation of administrators to circle the wagons of bureaucratic process in cases like this. And besides, the parents maintain that they did try to communicate with the college about these things before going public. So in the meantime, the college needs to stop complaining about how this controversy was put into play. The issue is really a pretty simple one—are there any woke people employed by Grove City doing woke things? If a customer of Wendy’s complains to the evening news about a mouse head he found in his chili, the PR guy for Wendy’s should NOT respond by complaining about how that customer had actually called the wrong hot line at corporate headquarters. “Had he just made the effort to call the right number, we would have been all over it.” That is a losing move, and at some point becomes a new grievance.

As an aside—it was hard to tell, and I don’t want to be taking too much upon myself—but I think there were a handful of dark references to me and my blog in that discussion. If you listen to the podcast you will understand why I can’t be sure, but there were oblique warnings about the blogosphere’s involvement in all this. And yet I don’t want to be like that spectator at the football game who thought that every time the offense went into a huddle, they were somehow talking about him. So let me just assume they were talking about me so that I can offer my think-nothing-of-it-thanks, and we can all move on.

This is not an attempt by a New St. Andrews guy to hobble a competitor. It is my earnest hope that Grove City gets through this successfully, and retains its earned position as one of the few remaining conservative institutions in higher education. I hope ten years in the future that NSA loses some students we were recruiting to Grove City, and that the students concerned would get a first-rate education. The thing that would be a shame would be if their parents sent them there expecting one thing, and then got quite another.

More Than Mistakes

The education class that had all the woke titles in the assigned reading was heavily advertised, and the posters were of the raised fist/raised consciousness variety. Trueman came in at that point and said that there was no question but that the advertising for that course was a “mistake.” And everybody agreed on that.

But here is where life gets a little more festive and interesting. What kind of mistake? If the instructor of that course is woke, and was trying to bring the Resistance to Grove City, then the flyers advertising his efforts to do so were not actually a “mistake.” It was on purpose. They were an example of exactly the kind of thing that the concerned parents were talking about. In other words, if that were the case, the parents were aware of a CRT problem in a Grove City classroom before the president and administration were aware of it. That’s not what you want.

If, however, the instructor was wanting to have his students learn just how radical and dangerous wokeism is, and he thought that putting up posters with a radical-vibe would be just the ticket for attracting students who were starting to dabble in that stuff, and then wham, he would hit them with reserved readings at the library—you know, Thomas Sowell, John McWhorter, Walter Williams—then that would have been a mistake. He would look like he was doing something woke when he was in fact trying to do the opposite. That would have been a mistake.

The issue with this education class is that it kind of looked like he was doing what he might actually have been doing. It reminds me of Washington’s definition of a gaffe—when someone in office accidentally speaks the truth. And so IF he was doing what it looks like he was doing—which should be determined by a judicious investigation, and not by a mob—then he should be fired. And why? Because he is not in alignment with Grove City’s mission and purpose.

That Diversity Office

I was talking about the whole situation with Ben Merkle, the president of NSA, and the diversity office issue came up. He mentioned something that I had previously thought of, which is that a diversity office may have been an accreditation requirement. If that were the case, then Grove City couldn’t be faulted for merely having the office, because they could still resist the tyranny involved by staffing the office with right-wing Vikings.

But in the podcast, it came out that the diversity office had been created by President McNulty in the aftermath of the George Floyd death, in the wake of all that nation-wide riot and mayhem. There was some discussion about whether or not a college should be “reacting” in such a direct way to outside current events. For a different example, Hillsdale had responded to it by saying that their entire curriculum was dedicated to equipping students for such situations. They didn’t need to alter anything.

In my view, the issue is not whether a college does something in the wake of nationwide riots. The issue is what they in fact decide to do—what direction they decide to go. Colleges don’t exist in a bubble, and we are affected by events and movements in the broader culture. So of course there are occasions when an institutional response is necessary. But when the Left explodes with rage, and starts burning down cities in order to make the whole country bow to their totalitolerant demands, for a college to choose that moment to decide that what this country needs is another diversity office in higher education speaks of a worldview tone-deafness.

What Grove City could have done, and it would have been a much better response to the cultural moment, is establish a Heritage Walk on campus, and vow that they were going to put up a statue for every statue that was being pulled down around the country by the savages. And because the statues being put up would represent quite a disparate group—abolitionists, explorers, missionaries, Quakers, Confederate generals, Union generals, and more—the nickname for the walk that would develop over time would be Diversity Walk.

The Matter of Caesar’s Wife

When Julius Caesar divorced his second wife, Pompeia, he said that “my wife ought not even be under suspicion.” This gave rise to a proverb, one which ran along the same lines—”Caesar’s wife ought to be above suspicion.” This is a roundabout way of saying that a higher reputation carries a higher responsibility. And the nature of the reputation matters, and is closely related to the nature of the responsibility.

This is what I mean. There are a handful of colleges that have built a reputation that appeals to a constituency that is deeply conservative. To speak in the parlance of the day, the fact that these colleges are resisting the general leftward tide is an essential part of their brand. I am talking schools like Hillsdale, and Grove City, and Patrick Henry, and New St. Andrews. This is an essential part of what they are about. They raise money on the basis of it. They recruit students on the basis of it. They live on the basis of it.

Without it they die. Without it they blend into the background of a thousand and one evangelical colleges that just drift with the current, like one more dead cow in the Rio Grande.

Thus just a whiff of wokeness at Grove City is going to do a whole lot more damage than some new outrage at Wheaton, a college which is already in danger of apologizing to the Auca Indians for the harassment that some Wheaton alums put them through. But in contrast to this, Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion. And so to return to Trueman’s point, the response to this apparent encroachment of the wokeness disease is what counts, and this is why it really needs to be vigorous. And that word vigorous is an understatement. Their response—once the judicious investigation is completed—needs to be more like a Corinthian response to a concern the apostle Paul once registered with them.

“For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”

2 Corinthians 7:11 (NKJV)

The People Responsible Have Been Sacked

I don’t think anybody wants a “ready, fire, aim” investigation. But the parents who have expressed their concerns do want, and should get, a fair-minded and thorough investigation into all of this. The investigation must actually determine what has been going on, and must be seen to have determined this.

And because this issue lies right at the center of Grove City’s identity, it is something that the board of Grove City needs to be actively involved in. The board will have to sign off on the results of the investigation, and so they need to be entirely satisfied that the woke process did not begin on their watch.

At the end of the process, if it is found that anybody in the employ of Grove City was acting in a manner contrary to Grove City’s foundational mission—which all the racialist woke stuff most certainly is—that person should be sacked. And when I say sacked, I mean in the spirit of the great Monty Python “credits sacking.”

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Ziggy
Ziggy
11 months ago

The GCC student newspaper covered the EDUC 290 class in a front page story (“New class spurs dialog”) for its February 19, 2021 issue. The article strongly suggests the purpose of the class was to train students in anti-racist ideology and tactics. https://issuu.com/grovecitycollege/docs/2021-02-19

Quinn
Quinn
11 months ago
Reply to  Ziggy

I guess Dr. Trueman missed that Collegian article about EDUC 290. I wonder if he’s ever asked his department chair Dr. Byun about this article on systemic racism published by GCC’s Project on Rural Ministry last summer (https://mobile.twitter.com/Byzness/status/1471506326324797454). Or if he noticed that the college recently removed “conservative” and “promotion of the Christian worldview” from its mission/vision statements (https://mobile.twitter.com/megbasham/status/1473827714016727049). Could there be more going on at GCC than Dr. Trueman realizes?

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Quinn

Is the issue in that article the acknowledgement that systematic racism exists in some forms? And that should be anathema for a Christian college to admit because……why exactly?

It appeared to be a fair shake at discussing systemtic racism from a Christian perspective. I didn’t see anything heretical or marxist or anti-white or anything else in that article.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Quinn
Quinn
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Dr. Trueman said you can’t tell how a class was taught by looking at the syllabus, but the Collegian article shows that EDUC 290 was designed to teach students how to become woke social activists. The PRM article is another example of folks at GCC promoting CRT, something college officials have denied is happening.

Last edited 11 months ago by Quinn
Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Quinn

What is objectionable in that article? It appeared to be a fair shake at discussing systemic racism from a Christian perspective. I didn’t see anything heretical or marxist or anti-white or anything else in that article.

Tommy
Tommy
11 months ago

Great article. Let me rudely comment on something tangentially related.

How come the conservatives are always defending? Why can’t they take back Wheaton? Attack. Attack! Don’t stop there; Harvard was ours and we want it back!

The pattern has been defend, lose a long war, build something new…back to defend.

Or is it a matter of it not being worth it?

Iforgot
Iforgot
11 months ago
Reply to  Tommy

Do you notice any protests? Any demonstrations? Any actions at all towards that goal?
When you say “we,” do you mean the royal “we?” Because from where I’m sitting, i dont think conservatives care about it at all.

Jeff
Jeff
11 months ago
Reply to  Tommy

Most people don’t have the stomach for the fight it takes and the consequent watchfullness to maintain the victory should they win.

Look at the SBC for example.

Gray
Gray
11 months ago
Reply to  Jeff

If they continue with such displays of valor, they might actually make contact and have to engage in battle.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
11 months ago
Reply to  Jeff

Jeff, I’d say that most conservatives don’t have the time for the fight, let alone doing what it takes to maintain victory. They’re not trustafarians; they’re very busy working at a job and raising a family. Needless to say, activism is low on the priorities list. Good news is, there is a growing contingent of parents pushing back on the evil that is “social justice” and CRT oozing from schools, and not just at Grove. Problem is, these same parents are paying to promote woke nonsense through their taxes. It’s difficult to win a war when you’re being forced to… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
11 months ago

they’re very busy working at a job and raising a family. Needless to say, activism is low on the priorities list.”

Unlike woke supremacists who sometimes shotgun 100+ comments on a single blog post in a couple of days…and who knows how much other “internet activism” they do on other sites.

Nathan Ryan James
Nathan Ryan James
11 months ago
Reply to  Tommy

Conservatives have less chance of retaking major institutions from the left than the Sioux had of pushing the Union back across the Mississippi after Custer’s last stand.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Tommy

Excellent question. I think it also has to do with lack of courage & naievity.

Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
11 months ago

Do you think it’s reasonable to assume that every university will remain completely free of a progressive tug? You and I share a lot of common territory in worldview so I don’t disagree with the danger of wokeness and in no way do I defend its “merits”. But I also think that where people exist you are going to find a multiplicity of positions every time and they won’t always be as conservative as NSA would prefer. If a university is more “conservative” than NSA, does it make them a better institution? I’m seriously asking. The danger of the progressive… Read more »

Matt
Matt
11 months ago

Seems to be the ol’ sink or swim approach you’re advocating. The cream will rise to the top, this is proverbial wisdom and is strategic in its application. Beating again on this dead or dying horse “students are gonna meet with this kind of thing in the world so…..” That is fine and true but the instructive setting by nature of the setting seems to be an endorsement of whatever is being taught especially if you have sanctioned a chapel service or three that couches this godly/godlessness as the will of Christ.

David Douglas
David Douglas
11 months ago

With this latest in a non-auspicious line of slouching-to-apostasy anecdotes, I’ve concluded that: Every institution that wants to be biblically faithful needs to include frequent reminders (maybe a course each year) of the process of becoming biblically unfaithful. There is plenty of material to suggest that it is a real possibility that can happen (albeit slowly, perhaps) anywhere, anytime, to anyone. If anything, the odds go up, if anyone [we] thinks it can’t happen to them [us]. Subject matter would include: –Biblical theology and warnings –Biblical examples and countermeasures –Examples from history ancient and less ancient. –Example so recent, they… Read more »

Gray
Gray
11 months ago
Reply to  David Douglas

Mr. Douglas,

Thank you for the “slouching-to-apostasy”.

And with a nod toward Judge Bork, I think that apostasy is only a whistle stop on those greased rails, to pick up more passengers. Gomorrah is the destination.

David Douglas
David Douglas
11 months ago
Reply to  Gray

Gray,

I honored you liked the phrase. I’ve consider “slouching-to-” to be in the public domain for (as the politicians like to say) “revisions and extensions”. I don’t know who first came up with it, but a quick google search shows that it goes back at least to 1968 with Joan Didion’s book “Slouching towards Bethlehem”.

Yes, I agree apostasy like a magnetic “pole”, is never found alone. We are not so autonomous that we can simply reject God and His ways without embracing things that are antithetical to His ways. Gomorrah incarnate.

Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
11 months ago

You’re weird, dude.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
  1. The League of the South is openly White Supremacist, and proudly so. They do not deny that.
  2. Douglas Wilson has said he supported them in books and on this blog, and repeatedly associated with their leaders.

Neither of those facts are in dispute.

Why is it normal for Doug WIlson to make multiple extensive blog posts calling out a rival college for associating with “anti-racist” persons, but somehow weird to ask that same person to take back his support of a violent and racist group?

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
Jordan "Gamaliel" Schuurman
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Lol, iron law of woke projection

-BJ-
-BJ-
11 months ago

It seems like Grove City is going to take the same approach as Al Mohler at the SBC seminaries. Deny, deny, deny. Nothing to see here, folks. All while it goes down in plain view of everyone. It has worked for Mohler, so who knows?

Cherrera
Cherrera
11 months ago
Reply to  -BJ-

This is a very interesting take from an Orthodox guy who was once a student at Boyce and went through a Reformed stage. It’s mostly about Mark Driscol–and Christianity Today’s very woke take on him which totally missed Driscol’s real problems. He also talks about Mohler and the SBC. I haven’t gotten to all of his disagreements with Calvinism (it’s like 4 hours), but his take on the Evangelical world in the first 40 minutes or so is spot on.
BUSINESS CHURCH: Mega-Churches, Marc Driscoll, Paul Washer, Calvinism & Collapse – Jay Dyer – YouTube

Matt
Matt
11 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Does this have anything to do with the post?

Cherrera
Cherrera
11 months ago
Reply to  Matt

Yes, it has to do with the previous comment on SBC institutions that took the same path earlier and follows the general theme. Christianity Today, various “discernment” ministries and Christian academia have similar woke tendencies…and there’s some overlap with the cast and crew. If you’re looking for off-topic comments, check out the ones on the League of the South and silly guilt-by-association charges.

Matt
Matt
11 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I didn’t listen to but 20 min of the video and found it hard to be either informed or amused at the presentation. Dyer seems to think he is striking at the root of the problem which he identifies not so much as these fellows he “exposes” but evangelical protestantism as the aberration rising and perverting the true church since the reformation. His heart seems to be to return the reformed apostates back to its “founding”.

Gray
Gray
11 months ago

If they need some kind of special training or office with which to properly understand assault, arson, and rioting, they have lost any credibility for being preceptors of “higher” education. Any person involved in promulgating any of the insidious evil (that is nothing more than another flavor of communism) should be suspended from any official duties, forbidden from speaking to other similarly situated persons, and forbidden from any activities other than being a subject of an impending investigation. The investigation should be conducted in similar fashion as an internal affairs investigation, using a deposition type process, and fully recorded. I… Read more »

Jeff
Jeff
11 months ago

I listened to the podcast. Besides the blogosphere comment I got the distinct impression they were actually really annoyed with the parents.

Second, if the diversity department/committee was formed at the behest of McNulty that is something disturbing. Is this core to his world view? Is it a ‘well, on rethink gin this…’ moment?

Third, is chapel the proper forum for having speakers of that sort? Lee used the word ‘clumsily.’

Jeff
Jeff
11 months ago

Lee also used the management way too many times. Sounds too much like PR damage control.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago

It appears that Pastor Wilson has gone to full-on censorship now. Was what I said false? If not, then why were the comments deleted? Or are you just setting them aside today while the post gets traffic, so that those from outside the community who read this particular blog post while it gets attention don’t know you’re a hypocrite?

At least there’s zero plausible deniability when he inevitably claims, “Oh, I didn’t read that.”

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

You deleted my first 2 very short, specific comments that were completely accurate, not just the single long one. So your justification doesn’t hold water.

If what I said was actually wrong in substance, you could have debunked them. I laid out the facts, not my opinion, and on factual merits your statement right there is less accurate than anything I said.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Also, people post off-topic, wrong, and tedious here every week. That hasn’t been a criteria for deletion, so don’t think we’re fools now.. When Armin posted that racist stuff and it wasn’t deleted, the excuse was “Wilson doesn’t censor.” I guess posting racism is okay, but exposing a racist organization whose leaders you associated with and defended, that crosses the line?

And the fact that you’ve never countered on substance, and still won’t condemn the League of the South or clarify how you messed up in defending them, will only cause more to assume the worst.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson
Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

In the comment you deleted your collab with Michael Hill only composed a single bullet point. And yes, he was already doing racist stuff back in the 1990s, as were numerous other leadership figures in the League of the South.

But the bigger point was occasions through the 2000s when you said you supported them and claimed they were not racist AFTER multiple co-founders had left because the racism had become too much even for them. If you were so “unaware”, then why defend them of those charges in books you still push today?

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

The League of the South has OPENLY joined the Nationalist Front, a collaboration of the KKK, neo-Nazis, and other White Supremacist groups. They’re not hiding that.

League of the South leaders have been OPENLY saying racist things since the mid-90s. They’re not hiding that.

Why did you feel the authority to defend the League of the South before, claim they weren’t racist, claim they’re “good diagnosticians”, and then when confronted with exact, specific evidence of 27 years of racism, you plead ignorance while deleting the verifiable, documented facts?

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug,

There is no need to run down a wormhole, or to trust the SPLP. I looked at the League of the South’s own website for about 1 minute and clicked on the first featured article, which was written by Michael Hill. It is abominable.

You really are failing to take 5 minutes and police something that unfortunately has a foothold among your own followers.

https://leagueofthesouth.com/the-new-red-terror-2/

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
11 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

These are excerpts from Hill’s own blog: –blog post, February 21, 2020: “Having studied Jew behavior for many years, I can say with assurance that there is not another group more hypocritical nor prone to telling lies. After all, Christ Himself called them liars and children of the father of lies (Satan) in John 8:44. Their modus operandi for the last 2000 years has been to play the victim, accusing their enemies (chiefly White Christians) of doing to them (Jews) what they themselves plan on doing to Whites.” -blog post, February 21, 2020: “The Holocaust, the world’s biggest and most… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, Yeah, Doug saying that he won’t take the SPLC’s word on this is a central example of misdirection. They have a web page where their director spouts off his garbage all of the time. And Doug wants to make thos about Hill alone, but he wrote a book with Wilkins who was involved in the founding of the LOS, and continues to be close with him, he has written supportive messages about the LOS, and others affiliated with the CREC who were also associated with the LOS (thinking Steven Wedgeworth here) have disavowed the organization and the whole unreconstructed… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

To be fair to the League of the South, they were affiliated with the Nationalist Front. But they broke off their relationship in 2018.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180822184300/http:/www.occidentaldissent.com/2018/08/22/league-of-the-south-withdraws-from-nationalist-front/

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

To be clear, the statement doesn’t suggest any ideological differences with the Nazis and White Nationalists they had aligned with, and appears proud of nationalism and the work they did together. It just claims the League of the South is the best of all the nationalists and don’t need help from anyone else.

It specifically lists Charlottesville as a success. Remember, the League of the South’s invitation to the Charlottesville rally read, “If you want to defend the South and Western civilization from the Jew and his dark-skinned allies, be at Charlottesville on 12 August.”

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Judging from the context it is more about them being embarrassed by people with SS and swastika tattoos… and clear mental illness.

Mike
Mike
10 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Wow, Mr. Wilson, you are wayyy too lenient with these little hyenas… Just means you’re effective and they hate and fear that, so they travel in packs of 4 or 5 to hijack a thread…sometimes up to 6 I’ve seen at a time on other sites. Prolly funded to harass you and other effective ppl they have to track. Prolly belong to same Soros type funded “research center” I once outed 4 woke supremacists ganging up on someone on social media…turned out all 4 coordinated the harassment since I actually knew who they were. They tried to make it look… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
11 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug, you should consider deleting this entire sub-thread, as all of it is off-point. You’re under no obligation to provide a platform to someone who clearly won’t respect the boundaries you drew for commenting on this post.

And if he is going to continue to be disrespectful, as he is doing here, I suggest you ban him.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago

You find this information that embarrassing? You didn’t ask to delete any of Armin’s pro-racism threads, but this is the one that crossed the line for you?

At least Pastor Wilson and I share a professed faith, which is the basis I challenge his actions on. You won’t even claim Christianity when I’ve asked, so why should he take advice from you on what he should platform?

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, what I find embarrassing is you and your puerile behavior. This isn’t about Armin; it’s about your disrespectful behavior toward Doug and everyone else here when you refuse to abide by the one rule Doug made for this post, which is to stay on point. There are open threads every week where you can tantrum to your little heart’s content. This isn’t the post for that.

Grow up and stop acting like a child. This is Doug’s blog, not yours.

Jordan Schuurman
Jordan Schuurman
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I see conspiracy theories!

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago

There’s no conspiracy.

1. I proved the League of the South is openly and proudly racist, and listed all the times Doug Wilson has associated with their leadership and vigorously defended the organization in public, including in books he still promotes.

2. Doug Wilson admits deleting the comments but can’t debunk any of them.

I don’t see the conspiracy.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Matt
Matt
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No dog in the hunt does not disqualify me from observing that answering a fool according to his folly is by the proverbs own wisdom …..folly. And the flip-side of the proverb doesn’t get any better for the fool.
Why after someone insists that they are not a racist in every possible way and provides the bonafides of this do people insist on a secret racist tendency……secret racism is not something open racist groups warm up to unless you’re suggesting these folks are grooming Pastor Wilson for a coming out party.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Matt

What “secret racism” are you referring to?

Many League of the South leaders have been openly racist from the start. The founder and president of the LOS is a proud, virulent racist. I documented that clearly. They’re not hiding it, they don’t even claim not to be racist. Only Doug Wilson claims it on their behalf.

It seems perplexing that Wilson can’t admit something about them they proudly admit about themselves. But that would require him to admit that the time he spent publicly defending them was a mistake, and he struggles to admit mistakes.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Jordan Schuurman
Jordan Schuurman
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Guilt by association, right from the communist handbook LOL

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
11 months ago

It doesn’t seem accurate to refer to this as “guilt by association”. Jonathan is not calling for Doug Wilson’s cancellation because he once shared a stage with someone now considered a deplorable. He just wants him to agree that the League of the South is racist, or, to use Pastor Wilson’s own category, that they appear to have a lot of racial vainglory, and therefore that he was negligent to have defended them in the past. I disagree with Jonathan on a lot of issues, but lazy, thoughtless attacks on him and his positions are not worth posting. Please don’t… Read more »

Jordan Schuurman
Jordan Schuurman
11 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

“We have reason to believe you associated with the Mensheviks in the past, confess it is so or recant, post comment”

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago

Jordan,

If Nathan had spoken at events along side Julius Martov and written a book with Alexander Martynov and had several time defended the RSDLP against charges that that wanted to take anyone’s property, then yes, a statement on his relationship to the Mensheviks would be appropriate.

Your comment implies that this is an entirely spurious accusation, but you clearly don’t know the history.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago

“Guilt-by-association” is more known as a tool of McCarthyism and the Red Scare than of Communism, so that was a weird flex.

But the issue isn’t that Pastor Wilson co-led events with, co-wrote books with, and hosted speakers from the League of the South. The issue is that both on his blog and in his books he said he supported them, said they were good diagnosticians, and said they weren’t racist.

Imagine how Wilson would respond if another pastor/school had done that, but insert “BLM”. And the League of the South has preached far more vile stuff than BLM has.

Last edited 11 months ago by Jonathan
Will
Will
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Christ Church in Moscow is a cult and Wilson is doing what self-appointed cult leaders do when they are challenged with the truth. His denial concerning Mitchell Hill reminded me of Clinton’s “depends on what the meaning of is is”.

Wilson has two big problems, he has left a paper and digital ink trail concerning race and women that a blind man could follow and there are women and men lifting the curtain on the abuse they suffered.

Sam Rutherford
Sam Rutherford
11 months ago
Reply to  Will

And yet, here you are, tilting at windmills…

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, It is really not a cult at all. Members at Christ Church (or other CREC churches that I have been to) are not generally monitored by their elder or pastor, if they want to go to a different church they are free to transfer membership. There isn’t a lot of emphasis places on restriction and control. There is more of an outsized focus on one personality that has grown up than I would like, but that is a feature of many groups that are very much not cults. I have my concerns with the way a number of situations… Read more »

Will
Will
11 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I see it differently and so do a lot of others in Christendom. He checks a lot of boxes.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Will

What boxes?

Will
Will
11 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Well, the Cult Leader boxes of course.

Here’s a short list:

Self appointed/self anointed
Money hungry
Thief – plagiarist who claims others’ work as his on
Leads from the rear
Has others do his dirty work
Promotes us vs, them
Nepotism
Obsessed with sex
Sitler and Wight, to name just two

I could go on and on. You’re a fairly educated man. I’m sure you could come up with a list if you tried. Wasn’t he your pastor at one time?

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Will

Will, The concept of cult is slippery… but, with the possible exceptions of an excessive hunger for money, an obsession with sex, and us value them thinking, none of the stuff you listed is particularly cultists. And I’m not sure Wilson exhibits all of those traits… 1. Self appointed? What does this mean? People follow him, people come to him. How do you want him to be “appointed?” I agree that the way the e-free church broke up was irregular, and Doug may have some things to answer for, but all leaders are self-appointed in in way. 2. Money hungry?… Read more »

Will
Will
10 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Well, he’s a fraud and you’re welcome to him.

Jordan Schuurman
Jordan Schuurman
11 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Last edited 1 hour ago by The Department of Truth”

Ed
Ed
11 months ago

My sister-in-law just graduated from GCC with an Education degree. Parents sent her hoping for a Christian education, she came out a few years in.

Long story short, from our experience and the stories we hear, at least part the leadership is woke/LGBT-friendly.

F2CD6A6C-2392-476E-A2BA-F97FF69FD666.png
Last edited 11 months ago by Ed
Geoffrey
Geoffrey
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed

Hillsdale got it right with one obaervation; any institution that is not explicitly Christian will become modernist (Left wing.) All these college moves may be intended for honest reasons. The reality is that they are anti-Christian creeds in a Christian institution. One must win. “Prove it” is tedious at this point. Every. Single. University. If they let this poison in the host will be diseased. The evidence is all the other schools. “CRT” has become a talking point and it has been in schools since the 1990s. Remember multiculturalism? Its good people see it. Now aggressively vote with your feet… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey

I’m sure Hillsdale has used that statement, but the usual version is called Conquest’s Second Law (after Robert Conquest) and it reads: “Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing.”

The pithier version is from Moldbug: “The Cthulhu may swim slowly, but he always swims left.”

I’m not sure it’s actually true unless you hold right-wing to be equivalent to a status quote bias… in which case it would be a tautology. A counter example would be the Southern Baptist Convention in the 70s and 80s.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
11 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I wonder if the same principle applies to Supreme Court justices!

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
11 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I guess it depends on your frame of reference… some of those quoting moldbug approvingly may be pining for the days of Taney!

Defeatist narratives are really popular on the right, and it is easier to believe that there is a conspiracy or a grand structural archetectonic reason why they seem to be losing rather than confront the fact that they have failed in relationships, catechesis, and often in apprehending reality.

Mike
Mike
10 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Interesting axiom….probably because in fallen world things naturally tend to degenerate unless one works to prevent that.

Quinn
Quinn
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed

Wow, that Facebook page is eye opening. Looks like the LGBT club at GCC holds events right in the college student union, complete with the rainbow flag. Never would have expected this at GCC. I’m sorry this has affected your family. So sad when faithful parents are promised one thing and get something very different.

Ed
Ed
11 months ago
Reply to  Quinn

Yup.
See below:

Screen Shot 2021-12-28 at 2.23.56 PM.png
Friend
Friend
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed

Ed, thank you for pointing out this fact about GCC. SIX YEARS AGO, When looking at Christian colleges for our sons, part of the criteria for choosing the college was to look at the guest speakers in Chapel and the Student Clubs and Organizations. I crossed off GCC because they did not pass our parental test(LGTBQ club exists at GCC). Top it off with GCC LGTBQ++ being represented at GCC homecoming parade while marching down the streets of GC. GCC has gone the way of woke a long time ago..they just started at the baby step phase of downward spiral… Read more »

Ross
Ross
11 months ago
Reply to  Ed

Mr. Wilson, can you hazard a guess about what would be the reaction by the NSA administration if NSA students were to form an informal LGBTQRS+ campus group? Assuming it would be more severe than a firmly-worded letter sent out to the parents assuring them of NSA’s biblical faithfulness, I think this, sadly demonstrates the difference between NSA and most other Christian colleges.

Jonathan
Jonathan
11 months ago
Reply to  Ross

On the other hand, a chapter of the League of the South would be perfectly acceptable, as NSA’s founder is on record saying he supports them.

Which demonstrates a second difference between NSA and most Christian colleges. (Outside of Bob Jones University, possibly).

Guymon Hall
Guymon Hall
11 months ago

“establish a Heritage Walk on campus, and vow that they were going to put up a statue for every statue that was being pulled down around the country by the savages.

Without it they die. Without it they blend into the background of a thousand and one evangelical colleges that just drift with the current, like one more dead cow in the Rio Grande.”

Doug, I’m sorry but I was told NQN had already passed? In any case, well done, sir!

David
David
10 months ago

Alumni here. Look, stopping CRT is difficult for many good folks because Christians today are pressured to be “winsome”, and the Left sit on edge ready to pounce and hurl names no one wants to be called. In my opinion Christians in the West have not been tested for a long time nor are up on what marxist subversion looks like. GCC should be equipping students to successfully engage the Left’s latest tactics like gaslighting, ideas springing from Frankfurt School including CRT and other subversive powerplays. Prof. Trueman got into this a little in the podcast with Megan B and… Read more »