Miserable Wives

The situation described in the following letter is entirely fictitious, including persons, names, crimes, sins, relationships, circumstances and all particulars. The kind of situation that is described, however, is all too common and my hope is that biblical principles applied to this fictitious scenario may be of some help to individuals tangled up in a real one.

Dear Kate,

Thank you for your letter, and thank you also for your request for our perspective on your marriage. Since you got married five years ago, we have only seen you intermittently, at family reunions and such. After a year or so, Nancy and I guessed that something was off in your relationship with Jon, but didn’t have enough to go on that would justify asking a direct question. But we did have enough to start praying about it, and enough to regard your letter as a direct answer to that prayer. So thank you for writing.

You mentioned in the letter than Jon knew you were writing, and that he was grateful for it. Your letter contained a pretty thorough expression of your unhappiness in your marriage, and since Jon was in town for his conference last week, I took the opportunity to have lunch with him and get his take on everything. You asked us to tell you what we see, and I am glad we can answer that having heard from both of you. But given the nature of what I am going to say here, I am just sending this letter to you and not to Jon. If you would like to, you may share it with him. I would encourage that, but wanted to write to you privately first.

If I could, I would like to start by summarizing your complaint, which falls under two general heads. The first is that Jon seems incapable of meeting your needs, and the second is that you feel like you are trapped in a severe identity crisis. Who are you? What are you for? Why do all your desires to express yourself creatively seem thwarted at every turn? You believed early on that having children would answer the questions, or resolve the problems, but in your experience the two kids have only accentuated your sense of alienation. And that is the one word I would use to describe what you are experiencing—alienation. When Jon tries to speak to you, or fellowship with you, it seems to you like he is shouting across a chasm. It would be the same thing for you if you tried to commune with him, but you are tired and exhausted, and don’t feel like shouting across that chasm. Is this a faithful summary?

Now before getting into what we see, I wanted qualify something first. I want you to know and understand that nothing said here would apply to a woman who was married to a genuine tyrant. I have often wished that more women would be willing to be Abigails in dealing with their Nabals, and those situations are scarcely rare. I know that there are marriages where the husbands are thugs and bullies, and that their wives need to learn how to bring things to a head. I know of such situations at first hand. When that happens, and it happens too often, I am firmly in the corner of the wife who is the victim. Many women need to learn to be an Abigail.

But in this situation, I think you need to learn how to be more like Abigail in a different relationship, when she was dealing with her future husband David. “When Abigail saw David, she hurried and got down from the donkey and fell before David on her face and bowed to the ground.” (1 Samuel 25:23, ESV). This obviously requires further explanation, which I will get to shortly.

In the meantime, as you know, and as you said in a number of different ways in your letter, Jon is the exact opposite of a tyrant. He is faithful to you. He comes home every night. He holds down two jobs, doing both of them very well, and has provided for you amply. He takes you and the kids to church, and reads to the kids pretty much every evening. He doesn’t have a temper, and has sought out numerous marriage counselors for the two of you—and all to no avail. Now I want to tell you (as I already told Jon) that he does have a significant failing as a husband—but that failing is not one of being an overbearing tyrant. Those men exist but—I trust you will agree—not at your house.

So what is his problem? It is, in short, the fact that he is afraid to stand up to you in your emotional fluctuations. In brief, he is being a great husband to you in every area except the one place where you most desperately need a husband. And this is why you are in a constant state of frustration. Can you name one time when Jon helped you to confront and conquer a blue funk? I know he has thought about attempting it a number of times, but the slightest motion in that direction causes him to become the object of your unhappiness—which usually happens later on anyway. Trying to lead you in that moment seems to him to be a sure fire way to make things worse.

When the mood is upon you—and you say they are increasingly frequent since last winter—you feel exasperated, pulled thin, alienated, useless, and unloved. The hidden assumption in this (for both you and Jon) is that you take these emotional states as reliable and authoritative, instead of rejecting them as being the most manifest and bald-faced liars. You say that you know Jon loves you, but then you say in the next breath that you feel unloved. And in every battle between your knowledge and your feelings, which one wins? You take the word of your lying feelings over the word of your accurate assessment, over against your knowledge. Your feelings are your authority, even when you know they are being deceitful. Worse yet, Jon takes them as authoritative as well.

He does not help you face down your feelings as liars because he is afraid that it would be gasoline on the fire. The feelings that are currently raging beyond his control would suddenly be ten times bigger (and for a brief time they probably would be), and then he really would have terrible trouble. Jon loves you, and is very afraid of losing you. And when I spoke to him about whether he saw what I am talking about here, he said that he did. And he also acknowledged that he doesn’t attempt to do anything about it because he is afraid.

Before allowing contempt to creep in here (because it is hard for a woman not look down on a man who is afraid in this way), let me say one thing that should ameliorate any contempt. He still needs to do what must be done, and his fear has been destructive, but it is at least understandable. Jon needs to stand up to you when you are at your most volatile. But not only is he up against you—and you are, remember, kind of a force of nature—he is also up against the entire secular world and most of the Christian world. He is up against all your marriage counselors to date. He is up against the medical profession, including your doctor who prescribed your anti-depressants. In short, he is pretty close to being the soldier trying to explain to his drill sergeant how it is actually the rest of the army that is out of step. He is in a difficult place.

I am encouraged you wrote to ask us what we thought (because you had to have some kind of inkling what kind of counsel we would give). That means that it is quite possible that you will come to a frame of mind that will be a big help to Jon as he does what he needs to do. But even if this letter makes you angry, and you reject it entirely, Jon still needs to establish a rule for your household that you will do nothing on the basis of manifest falsehoods. Lies are not authoritative, and this is particularly so for emotional lies.

You said that Jon isn’t meeting your needs, and that you don’t feel nourished and cherished. You said that he isn’t “feeding” you. But Jon is not failing to feed you in the midst of a famine. He is trying to figure out what to do about the fact that you have gone on a hunger strike. When Jon reads Scripture to the kids, what do you do? Are you off in the kitchen doing the dishes? Perhaps making a little extra noise?

Now here is what you can do, and I am afraid it is an unpleasant prescription. You can submit to your husband, entirely and with a whole heart. You can determine that you are going to follow and obey him. He is good man. He is not going to take advantage of you. He is no jerk. His one great failing is not one that places him anywhere in the neighborhood of being an abuser. On top of this, your deliberate withholding of a submissive spirit is why things can never be smooth between you. “You do not fail in obedience through lack of love, but have lost love through lack of obedience . . . No one has ever told you that obedience—humility—is an erotic necessity” (That Hideous Strength, p. 148).

I qualified this earlier—but I do want to qualify it again. This is a fallen world, and so it is that no human authority can ever be considered an absolute. This plainly includes the authority of husbands. Authority can be wielded in unwise and foolish ways, and also in criminal ways. This really is a fallen world. But when authority goes bad it can go bad in two directions—it can become overweening and arrogant, or it can also become retiring and abdicating. This latter route is what Jon has done—but under pressure from you to do so. Your problem is not excessive authority, but a deficiency in submission.

You challenge him, hoping deep down that he will (this time) stand up to you. But if he does, you know (as does he also, quite well) that he will be in a fire fight. You challenge him, hoping at a basic emotional level to lose, and despising him when you don’t lose. At the same time, all the bad teaching you have received on role relationships is haunting your head (not to mention his). You have been encouraged (by sweet, well-meaning Christians) to explore your own creativity, to validate your own feelings, to affirm the value of self-authentication, and all the rest of that foolishness. He has been encouraged to create space for your emotions, to encourage you as you try to articulate how you are feeling, to build your studio out in the back, and so on. But the more he does that (and he has done it quite a bit) the worse everything gets.

What does the Bible teach about the value of self-expression? “A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back” (Prov. 29:11, ESV). And what does the Scripture teach about the wisdom of following your own heart? “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: But whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered” (Prov. 28:26).

And so what I am building up to is the fact that you need to stop listening to your own heart, and start listening to your husband. Whatever doubts you have about him as a husband, he will treat you ten times better than your emotions treat you. You need to break up with your emotions. Talk about an abusive relationship.

You need to go to Jon and seek his forgiveness for being so disrespectful of his efforts, apologize heartily, and tell him that you have resolved before God to obey him in everything. Ask him to help you to do that. I am quite aware that giving this kind of counsel is probably illegal in all fifty states, so I would be obliged if you didn’t post this on the Internet. I have enough troubles.

But think about it. The passages that require wifely submission do not apply (as I happily grant) to a woman married to a serial killer. But these passages do apply to someone. Someone should read these passages of Scripture and see in them their need to obey. And I am convinced that missing this need for application is the single greatest obstacle to contentment in your marriage.

Here it is, from four different translations:

“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing” (Eph. 5:24, KJV).

“Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything” (Eph. 5:24, NKJV).

“Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands” (Eph. 5:24, ESV).

“But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything” (Eph. 5:24, NASB).

Not only is this the case, but it says the same thing in the Greek.

You said in your letter than you would have left Jon by now if Scripture allowed it, and Jon confirmed that you had said the same thing to him a number of times. But this is simply a formula for continued misery. In other words, you don’t want to be in the terrible position of submitting to half of what the Scriptures require. The Bible does just require you to not leave Jon (since you certainly don’t have grounds), but it also requires you to submit to Jon in everything.

One of the reasons you are so miserable is that you are falling between two stools. “And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word” (1 Kings 18:21). You are getting just enough biblical Christianity to keep you stuck in an unhappy marriage, but not enough biblical Christianity to give you peace there.

If secular feminism is right, then ditch it all and follow your dreams. Now my prediction would be that, if you were to do this, you would not find contentment there either. Your dreams are lying to you, and Scripture is telling you the truth. But if Scripture is telling you the truth, you need to follow the Lord, and be all in.

Men and women are God’s invention. He designed us, and He designed us to function in a particular way. When we abandon that way, we lose our way, we lose our grip. Deserting our assigned sex roles is like painters abandoning paint, brushes, canvas, and going in big for conceptual art. The results just get increasingly silly and incoherent. The greatest accomplishment of feminism as such conceptual art is to make women miserable. Many of them have figured out that the promise “you can have it all” is a lie, and have blamed feminism for lying to them, and have turned away from feminism. Other women, including many Christians, and I would place you in this category, have blamed their husbands for feminism’s failures.

I mentioned earlier your identity crisis. Who are you? Moreover, how can you come to know who you are? Jesus teaches us the answer to this crucial question, and there is a glorious gospel logic in it. If you want to find yourself, you have to lose yourself first. Self-identity comes through surrender. “And whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it” (Matt. 16:25). This foundational truth for every Christian, men and women both. We all must surrender to the authority of the Lord Jesus, and to the sure words of Scripture. But when we die, we encounter our resurrected selves. When we lose “self,” we find that God returns it to us, but no longer diseased.

One last thing. I know that your emotions will be clamoring at you, telling you that this is all a trick, that you are about to join a cult, that you are being invited to drink the Kool-Aid, and so on. But you know the women in our family, just as I do. They exhibit two things that you don’t have. They all have a submissive spirit, down to the foundation. That is one thing. But also all have strong personalities, a sense of identity and belonging, lives of purpose and fulfillment, happiness in their people, and so on. In short, they are not alienated from their own being. But neither are they downtrodden. You cannot tell yourself that if you do what I am suggesting, you will be miserable. First, you are miserable now. And second, the way of contentment that is being offered to you really is plausible. You can see the fruit yourself.

Again, thanks for writing. If this letter is something you can even halfway receive, Nancy and I would be willing to drive halfway and meet you and Jon for lunch in Spokane. Let us know, and we love you all.

Cordially,

 

Douglas

 Photo by Pete Bellis on Unsplash

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Arwenb
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Arwenb

What’s the old saying?

“Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be”?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

“Happiness lies not in doing what we like but in liking what we have to do.”

insanitybytes22
Member

It’s a beautiful post, water for thirsty souls,much needed in the world today, so I regret having to object at all, but the fact of the matter is that the concept of safety, protection, and trust and how important that all is, is still completely absent. This is evident in the words, “I took the opportunity to have lunch with him and get his take on everything.” Or I wrote to your pedophile. I spoke to your uncle. I sat on the perps side of the courtroom. These are all huge betrayals of trust. The moment you say, “to get… Read more »

buckyinky
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buckyinky

The important thing, as Zippy might say, is to be certain that in no case should there ever be principles stated and applied that show women generally at fault against men; while at the same time being certain that principles stated and applied showing men at fault generally against women are quite right and appropriate.

insanitybytes22
Member

The moment you make submission of wives the result of blame, fault, and punishment for being female, you’ve lost the whole argument.

buckyinky
Guest
buckyinky

MeMe,

The moment you make submission of wives the result of blame, fault, and punishment for being female,…

Are you under the impression this is what I’ve done? Otherwise, not following what you’re talking about.

OKRickety
Member

@buckinky, I would suppose the answer is “yes”. MeMe often interprets statements in a unique  manner.

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

This display of irrationality is precisely why I oppose women’s suffrage.

kyriosity
Member

Irrationality is neither an exclusively feminine trait nor a universally feminine trait.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

True enough, but surely you are not defending the rationality of her comment, correct?

Either way, statistics bear out that we have most of the liberal ills of this country, because women support them 2-1. Free handouts, gay marriage, and abortions would likely not be legal without women’s suffrage.

To quote the ever bombastic Ann Coulter, “If we took away women’s right to vote, we’d never have to worry about another Democrat president. It’s kind of a pipe dream, it’s a personal fantasy of mine, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.”

For hard research see here:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~iversen/PDFfiles/LottKenny.pdf

Jane
Member

Labour rose to power in Britain before women’s suffrage.

I don’t deny women’s role in promoting liberalism, but Coulter’s statement is way over the top, at worst empty rhetoric and at best based on static assumptions that may not be warranted.

Edit: she also needs to explain Grover Cleveland and Woodrow Wilson.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Jane,

I never meant to suggest that liberalism came from women alone. It certainly didn’t.

And of course Coulter’s statement is over the top. I called it bombastic for a reason. I was just trying to highlight the stark contrast.

And the facts do speak pretty loudly. If women continue to vote as they have in the past, then we will continue to have abortion, gay-marriage, free handouts, etc. They alone are not to blame, but it is a worthwhile conversation.

Jane
Member

Agreed. I just think it’s somewhat incongruous on several levels to approvingly cite Coulter in this context, even with the modifier “bombastic.” :-) OTOH, if men continue to vote as they currently do, none of those things will go away, either. It’s not women who were statistically responsible for the nomination of Trump, but I can’t see him ending any of those things. So while I take your point, I wonder how much difference it makes in practical terms. I think we are well beyond the point where American men can be relied upon to stand up for political wisdom… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Jane if I could be a little contentious here, I would suggest that it is at least possible that both the innate issue of gender and the problem of a degenerate culture may be coming into play in different ways. Because voting is inherently statistical, it matters what a group does in general, not what astute individuals do within the group. It is possible that women tend to focus on things that are very important but perhaps should not be dealt with at a civil level (such as child poverty). So one could be cautious about women voting for reasons… Read more »

Jane
Member

I don’t disagree with any of that. I’m simply commenting on the irony of using an emotional and counter-factual statement by a woman whose life is dedicated to flogging political ideas, to make the point. ;-)

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Bethyada, the problem with doing that from a point of basic equity is that we must then remove the vote from some poor people who vote for more generous handouts, some corporate bandits who vote self-interest every time, some highly intelligent and well to do elites who want a utopian society, dumb people who can’t understand the basic issues, feckless people who don’t understand that the government can’t print money indefinitely, and so on. We might also want to remove the vote from weird or detested religious groups who might vote for results that appall us. Where would this end?

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Coulter is good for cutting through the fog and making people think for a moment. We don’t take her too seriously, but she does make for a good foghorn.

I am not defending men as a voting block either. Humans are sinful, so I am a one who opposes democracy. Even without women voting, sinful men will find their way to the gutter.

I just think it would be a good start.

kyriosity
Member

Of course I’m not defending her irrationality. It is an irrational leap for you to suggest that, just as it is an irrational leap for you to suggest that all women are irrational.

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Kyriosity,

I saw that little turn around there. Well played.

I also never meant to suggest all women were irrational. They aren’t. It was meant as a snarky line directed at an utterly irrational comment.

But you can’t deny the facts, not rationally anyway. See my little turn around to your little turn around. Men and women are different biologically, psychologically, and in terms of voting patterns. As long as one fights for women voting, they are fighting for a cause that supports very anti-Christian positions with 2-1 support.

Like it or don’t, but the voting statistics are there.

mys
Guest
mys

Notice, Kilgore, and you seem like a sharp guy, so I am sure you did:
When push comes to shove, tribe woman sticks together.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I figured this would be a lightening rod comment.

But you are correct. My wife likes to remind me that she voted for Trump, so I better shut up about women voting. Thick as thieves.

mys
Guest
mys

Lol, it’s not the women who voted for Trump. Trump himself tended to get more votes from married women.
The deal, as you noticed, is looking inward. When someone describes fault in a certain man, I look inward. I see how it could apply to me. It sometimes does apply to me.
When you point out the wisdom in restricting women voting, not a single one says: “I can see what he’s saying.” Even the conservative ones….”I’m not like that!!!”

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Okay, I looked inward and, although I am not precisely conservative, I can understand Kilgore and Katecho’s point of view. I do lean left on social issues, and if the choice came down to a new aircraft carrier or better health care for children, it is not difficult to guess where I would land. Furthermore, I am a tireless campaigner when I care about an issue or a candidate, so I may persuade a bunch of people to vote the way I want them to. I can see very clearly why Kilgore and Katecho would prefer that I not vote… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
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The Commenter Formerly Known As fp

if the choice came down to a new aircraft carrier or better health care for children, it is not difficult to guess where I would land.

I see what you did there, Jilly, but I would counter that health care for children doesn’t come with a runway.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

You’re right about that, and the odd thing is that I adore aircraft carriers. I love watching deck operations on Youtube and figuring out which color shirt does which job. In my next life, I–who cannot drive a car because I have no depth perception and faint at the drop of a hat–am going to be a fighter pilot. But I think I will fly a Raptor.

kyriosity
Member

Here’s what I notice, mys: Not all men come to such irrational conclusions, so I needn’t jump to any as you have.

mys
Guest
mys

Kyriosity-
Lol, but many do, as do many women. I have no problem with this. When women say, “Some men are abusive,” I have no problem with that. Women do tend to be more emotional, less rational, more prone to deception. This is supported by scripture. What else could 1 Tim. 2:14 mean? Most scholars think that means women are more prone to deception than men. Who watches Oprah more? Who likes Joyce Meyer more? For goodness sakes, who buys the checkout celebrity tabloids more?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Mys, I went hunting for scholarly studies on the gullibility of women, and what I immediately came across were several studies finding that women are much more likely to be lied to in business transactions. UC Berkeley found that both men and women lie much more frequently to female prospective customers than they do to men. In a situation such as trying to sell a condo, men and women lied to a male customer 3% of the time–while 24% of both men and women salespeople lied to women in the same situation. This study was replicated in England with the… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi mys, I’m not so sure of that. There are a lot of divisions among women, and a very nasty one is class. When Hillary spoke dismissively about not staying home and baking cookies, she spoke for a lot of women who draw a clear distinction between their kind of woman and the kind who works at the local diner. If women of the upper middle class cared that much about their less educated sisters, they would make sure they paid their nannies and cleaners a fair wage. They would give them paid sick days just as they get themselves.… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
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Kilgore T. Durden

Most women, my wife being one of the exceptions, who get to stay at home are the privileged ones.

The decision to stay home nowadays, even among Christians, is mostly determined by class, not conviction.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I feel I was very privileged, especially as the mother of one sedate and scholarly child who was happy to read all day! If you are organized, you can get the work done pretty quickly, leaving a lot of free time.

mys
Guest
mys

Jill- I would suggest that Hillary’s comment applies more to value differences in women, not class. What women like Hillary are for is anything that is divisive to families, and good values. They are not for Team Woman indiscriminately, they are for Team Woman so far as Team Woman does what they say. You noticed this during the election run-up. Madeline Albright (a grizzled, bitter hag if there ever was one) said “There should be a special place in hell for women who betray other women.” Gloria Steinem (same category as Albright) said the girls, and she meant Democrat girls,… Read more »

Jane
Member

Class does play into it, though. I wouldn’t dismiss it entirely.

Only women of a certain class get to do things that are actually more fun and fulfilling than baking cookies, even to them. Most of the ones who spend their days outside the home are doing things far less entertaining than arguing law cases, writing articles, or developing corporate strategy. They’re the ones the higher-status feminists need to fill the bus to make it about “women” rather than “well to do, well-educated women with good opportunities”, but they don’t actually benefit, even in their own perception.

mys
Guest
mys

Jane,
I understand what you mean, the working class women who have average-to-below average jobs are being co-opted by the lawyer/politician class, because without the average women, they couldn’t get it done. And you are also correct to note that these women do not benefit. I would say, benefit economically.
The stench and filth of feminism is such in this land of ours that all women, yes, all, benefit. Some more, some less, but all benefit.

Jane
Member

No woman benefits from feminism. Well, perhaps some benefit financially in the sense that they make their living at promoting it. But no woman benefits overall from the fact that feminism is in place and prevalent. How could they? It’s toxic to everything and everyone it touches! It destroys or at best damages the souls of those who believe it, it ruins every family that deeply imbibes it, and it creates conflict in every corner of society.

How can women benefit from something that is a “stench and filth?”

mys
Guest
mys

Jane, I agree, feminism is toxic and evil, and is not a soul benefit to women. It damages them. What I meant was, all women, even conservative ones who hate feminism, benefit from it. Have you voted? You benefitted. Until recently, did women have the option of VOLUNTEERING for military service, without having to sign up for selected service? They benefited. Could you, at any moment, turn your husband out of the house at your whim, and have everyone side with you? Then you are a beneficiary, whether you cash it in or not. Finally, this post. You and all… Read more »

Jane
Member

Voting I’ll grant you, but that assumes that female suffrage requires feminism. But I’ll just lay that aside for a moment. Volunteering for military service without being subject to the draft is only a benefit if it is good for women to serve fully in the military. Hardly obvious. Being able to throw your husband out without consequences is not a benefit, it is a temptation bordering on a curse. Not receiving straightforward counsel from scripture but being the recipient only of teaching that is always hedged is not a benefit, it is a destructive consequence of the brokenness of… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Some men do benefit from feminism. A working wife, especially if she is in a well paid profession, contributes to a lifestyle that would be otherwise unaffordable. People who post here would be surprised at the number of men who flatly refuse to even consider letting the wife stay home, even after the birth of a child. When I worked full time before the birth of our child, I earned more than my husband. Nevertheless, it was understood that care of the household, meal preparation, and so on, was entirely my responsibility. Had I continued to work throughout our daughter’s… Read more »

mys
Guest
mys

Jane-
Having had more time now to think on our conversation from earlier this week, I would throw in, as a benefit of feminism or just being a woman, the whole deal going on in this thread, and others, with MeMe.
She openly slanders the blog host. He, in a neutral and gentle way, tries to tell her he didn’t mean what she thinks he meant. She tirades up and down on her blog. Now, I have let her have it with some of my comments. But mostly, she gets kid gloves more than any male who wrote similarly.

bdash
Guest
bdash

you hit the nail!
Women always get exceptions to the female specific commands…
but men get no exceptions.
I always found this amusing

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

The stench and filth of feminism is such in this land of ours that all women, yes, all, benefit. Some more, some less, but all benefit. Huh? I am quite confused. How is it possible that “all women benefit” from feminism? If that were possible, then wouldn’t feminism be a good thing? Unless you are claiming that “all women benefit” from feminism at the expense of all men. And if that’s your meaning, then I contend that the sexes and the world are not designed for that to be a possibility. Neither sex can truly “benefit,” across the whole and… Read more »

Jane
Member

I think he’s got some zero-sum game going on here. Men are hurt by feminism in the name of helping women, therefore the women must actually be benefiting.

What’s actually happening is that the women are being promised the whole world, and everyone’s losing their souls.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Assuming for the sake of argument that what feminism has wrought actually benefits women, I would contend that for many women these benefits are potential, not actual. I tutored a young woman who is finishing her masters in government at Cambridge before starting Harvard law next year. But she is a brilliant girl from an affluent and well connected family. Most women in America will never have her opportunities. (Neither will most men.) But the benefits conferred on her by feminism are only theoretical and potential for most. Similarly, feminism means that a woman abandoned by her husband will not… Read more »

mys
Guest
mys

Regarding potentially vs. actual, Jill, I agree, at least economically.
Yet women are not willing to do without it…

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I agree with you, Jane. And upper class women who don’t work outside the home are not, in my experience, at home making cookies. Nannies make the cookies while elite wives work out with personal trainers, organize charity balls, and raise scholarship money for a few handpicked students to attend St. Swithin’s Academy for Impossibly Privileged Children. If anyone cares much about the woman who comes home from the sweatshop and then has to make three dozen cookies for the first grade bake sale, I haven’t seen it.

bethyada
Member

Hillary spoke dismissively about not staying home and baking cookies,

If only she had!

demosthenes1d
Member

Kilgore,

I think you should reject this sort of consequencialist approach to suffrage, or anything else.

I am against women’s suffrage (I would prefer only men married to their first wife, with children, be given the vote, but I am not fixed in my view), but it is for reason of revealed and natural law, and received wisdom from our fathers.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Hi Demo, your suggestion to Kilgore helps a little but doesn’t altogether remove some potentially absurd results. If I understand you correctly, you’re saying don’t base opposition to women’s suffrage on perceived intelligence/rationality differences and don’t base it on fear that women will use their vote to support liberal policies. This makes good sense. If you want to take away my vote on the grounds that I am less rational and intelligent than my pizza delivery man (as I may be), I will demand an IQ test and then what? If it’s because you suspect me of knowing more about… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

Jilly, Thanks for the response. I am opposed to a consequentialism approach. Women vote for X —> I don’t like X —> women shouldn’t vote. I am all for taking real differences between the sexes into account, but I am far from convinced that women are less intelligent on average (though they are more tightly distributed) or are less tempermentally suited to vote. I am not concerned about some sort of perfectly fair representation of the populace, but rather with what will lead to prudential government and will reinforce stability and harmony in society. I believe that both scripture and… Read more »

CHer
Guest
CHer

“I would prefer only men married to their first wife, with children, be given the vote, but I am not fixed in my view”

What about people who actually pay taxes, i.e., have skin in the game? That would be a modernized version of what states did long ago (property owners). Having a large class of voters on the dole means, well, a lot of people wanting “freebies.”

demosthenes1d
Member

I would go with this if we had a constitutional amendment that required no taxes or fees other than an income tax, or whatever tax you would be using for your cut-off. Otherwise it would likely result in shifting the burden onto those with “no skin in the game” in such a way as to continue to deny them a vote.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Now wait a minute, Kilgore! My former husband found me rational to an unfeminine degree, and furthermore complained that my placid demeanor was boring to live with. Do I still get to vote?

adad0
Member

Jilly, I thought it sounded like the ex Mr. Jilly liked Port Salud Mac and cheese?????
If so, that issue leaves no ground for criticism of you!????????????

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Jill, I would happily take away your vote, but not because you are irrational. It is the general voting pattern of the rest of the beloved, fairer sex that troubles me. This does show how far egalitarianism runs in the bones of Christian women. They ostensibly oppose abortion, gay marriage, and other destructive liberal policies, but when one suggests those problems were able to be made into law because so many of their female counterparts voted them in, and furthermore, that the way to change them is to take away the women vote, they get pretty up in arms. That… Read more »

Katecho
Member

In a strong representative government, direct votes on policy would be rare, but votes for candidates would matter a great deal, depending on their platform. I would much prefer a return to household voting, as a way of strengthening the principle of family and civic representation. Because some women are unmarried or widowed, they would continue to represent their household and family in elections as they would in a local church setting. Women are generally, and by design, more attuned to needs and compassion. This is their strength, and vital if we want a strong culture, but those instincts need… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I generally oppose voting at all.

Give me a good Monarch who is governed by the Theocratic Law of God and a good glass of bourbon any day.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I’m with you on the bourbon. I don’t drink alcohol, but once a year my sister takes me on vacation. The highlight is a dinner out and a cocktail made with Maker’s Mark and vermouth. It slides down like a golden elixir. It fills me with general benevolence for humankind. It makes me want to write sonnets. Of course I could go to the liquor store on the corner and buy a bottle myself, but then it wouldn’t have that magical effect. Not so sure about the monarch, though. For every Elizabeth II, there are too many Prince Charleses waiting… Read more »

kyriosity
Member

This is a rational argument for changing suffrage. This is the system we have in my church, and I cheerfully submit to it…and would even more cheerfully submit to it if I got married and thereby became disqualified from voting. ʼTis a consummation devoutly to be wished, in fact. ;^) If, as Katecho suggests, that system were to be applied in the civil sphere, I would not necessarily object. I do think we would need to think through some problems with applying it in our current culture (i.e., I’m not convinced it’d work without a significant cultural overhaul), but I… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Despite your continued assertion, I have stated quite clearly that not all women are irrational. I will quickly add that many men are, as well.

But voting patterns are persistent facts. Women vote 2-1 for things that Christ opposes.

Are you okay with this?

kyriosity
Member

Even if you’re speaking on the aggregate, you’ve argued that rationality is an issue. I have the same response re speaking on the aggregate about voting for things Christ opposes — the issue is not that the voters are women, but that they are disobedient to Christ. God doesn’t assign roles and rights to men or women based on any kind of aptitude, so neither should we argue for roles and rights for men or women based on any kind of aptitude. “The woman was deceived” might come to mind, but that’s a covenantal issue, not an aptitude issue —… Read more »

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

I would much prefer a return to household voting, as a way of strengthening the principle of family and civic representation.

Interesting idea, and I like it in principle. However, it would need some serious thought to go into apportioning/weighting voting power. Simply doing one-household-one-vote or the like would perversely shift more power to those who stay unmarried. And even if a married couple’s vote was worth that of two single individuals, it would still add some amount of transaction cost to have two people sharing a single vote.

Katecho
Member

I hear the point about an incentive to stay unmarried to retain voting power, but if someone is actually maintaining a household (as opposed to still living with their parents, or shacked up with their boy/girlfriend), they would seem to have met basic requirements to represent that distinct household with a vote, even if the motives for that independence are not what we would endorse as Christians. In any case, I think the temptation to remain single for the purpose of voting would be seriously diminished and corrected by other features of my overall social/civic platform. :-) For example, representative… Read more »

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

My concern wasn’t actually about an incentive to stay unmarried for voting power. My concern was that if not done properly, singles who sleep around or shack up could in effect have disproportionate voting power, regardless of whether they intended or even considered it.

I have no reason to doubt that it could be done properly. But it’s something which would need to be considered.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

You are so nice, Kilgore, that when I finally get my citizenship and the vote, I promise not to vote for Hillary, abortion, or pornography!

bdash
Guest
bdash

lots of women oppose women’s suffrage…
abortion, gay marriage , the nanny state would not have happened in western economies if women were not given the right to vote

Oscar
Guest
Oscar

“… I regret having to object at all… ”

That’s hilarious!

OKRickety
Member

Oscar, In light of its source, absolutely hilarious!

insanitybytes22
Member

Not really. I don’t find it funny at all. It’s hurtful, it’s tragic that a beautiful concept like submission can be so perverted that it serves nothing but men’s fragile egos and not our Lord and Savior.

mys
Guest
mys

What’s beautiful is your display here. To any doubters, it proved it:
Pastor Wilson threw many qualifiers about abusive husbands. Arguably too many, but he put them in. Past the qualifiers, though, he said what needed to be said, and it was good.
You proved that it isn’t about qualifications for abuse. Never has been. You proved that you think that any person who suggest that difficulty with submission comes from the woman, is wrong. That is what you think. It’s clear to see. You are in rebellion and error.

Oscar
Guest
Oscar

I assure you, no one is laughing WITH you.

Bro. Steve
Guest
Bro. Steve

Good post overall, but there’s a bit of emphasis lacking. No man however strong or “emotionally competent” or some other buzz phrase can make another person submissive who doesn’t want to be. In the working world, I see both men and women being submissive to higher authority in their corporations, and they don’t feel violated or inferior about it. It goes on all day every day without anybody ever objecting to it. It’s just what having organization means. We’re here to make money, and somebody has to be in charge. If you can’t abide that, you’re fired. But when we… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Good point.

Radical feminists scowl about submission in the home, because they do not need a man. And to demonstrate their independence, they run to a corporate job where they slave all day in a cubicle to make money for corporations run by mostly males.

I am woman. Hear me submit to corporate servitude.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

George Bernard Shaw had a very good line about that. “‘We will not be dictated to,’ women rose up and declared. So they went out and became stenographers.” Seriously, there can be good reasons for women to be discontented at home, and they are easily remedied if they are the real issue. A woman who leaves the corporate world for marriage and stay at home motherhood (as I was happy to do) can find herself both bored and lonely. She may need intellectual stimulation, and she certainly needs the company of other adults (and not those who are equally discontented).… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I love Shaw, his political radicalism and secularism notwithstanding. His wit was quick and sharp.

Your points are well-taken and my wife spent many years knitting and making decorative wear. I think it was cathartic for her. She made a lot more of them as the kids got older and started finding more freedom. She was nervous and left with much less to do.

All places in life have challenges, and being a mother and homemaker is not excluded.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

But Jill, is the corporate world necessarily all that intellectually stimulating? Also, are there not other ways for women to spend their time in the company of other adult women, perhaps doing useful things, if that’s what they want, or just being together? Does not a person who is addicted to stress have a problem in the first place?

All that said, nowadays I don’t know if a man would be well advised to marry an unemployed woman. Has to do with a point you’ve made. before.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

John, I was very lucky that almost all the jobs I ever held were really interesting. I realize that this is not the norm, and that furthermore, when women leave the home to get paid work, they are much more likely to end up in retail sales than in something like advertising or speech writing or even teaching. I am having to look at going back into the workforce after 25 years at home, and none of the available options could be called intellectually stimulating! More like greeter at Wal-Mart! I think addiction to stress can be overcome as long… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Christian women… will do in the workplace for the love of money what they will not do in their homes for the love of all that is good and holy.

What a very perceptive statement.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

That is true, Bethyada, but it is important to note that for many women (and men) it isn’t only the money. There is also status, recognition, a sense of concrete achievement and a job well done, the company of interesting and articulate people, and a quasi-social life (I personally think there is too much of the latter in the American workplace). Your husband and your pastor may tell you that washing floors and wiping runny noses is valuable work–but the rest of the culture does not.

Oscar
Guest
Oscar

“What a very perceptive statement.”

It’s almost like someone actually read Genesis Ch 3.

lndighost
Member

Steve, those things are all true but I think the emphasis you are looking for would belong more in a letter to Jon than to Kate. A woman in Kate’s position does not need to hear that her husband can’t make her submissive. She already knows that. Also, there are hints in the letter that she is an arty, creative type, and therefore “being submissive to higher authority in a corporation” is probably not something she is doing. What she needs, and I think what Doug has offered here, is the knowledge that she is responsible for her own obedience.… Read more »

Bro. Steve
Guest
Bro. Steve

I appreciate your opinion and thoughtful response. However, I don’t quite agree that the fictional women shouldn’t be told head-on that submission or rebellion is their choice. While it’s true that the fictional guy owes her some straight talk, she still has to decide whether to accept that or not. In my personal experience — and I’m getting pretty old — the feminist movement has created a situation in which men are damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. If a guy has enough animal energy to PUT a wife in subjection, then he’s a man-splainer, a tyrant,… Read more »

lndighost
Member

I may have misunderstood your second sentence but I think we agree that we will each be held accountable for our own sin. No correspondence of the “the man/woman you gave me” variety will be entered into. And, as you say, it is important that the church perform her role in faithfully proclaiming God’s word. I think your point of difference is more one of focus: that you are interested in describing the distasteful effects of feminism on the culture, whereas Doug, in this particular post, is addressing a specific type of those thus affected in an effort to bring… Read more »

Jane
Member

Agreed, Steve, but I don’t get the impression here that Kate has drunk the feminist Kool-Aid, but that she’s imbibed enough of it in the air to mess her up, and helping her husband to wear his headship a bit more comfortably, and helping her see how submission is her duty, not something that she should only do if it comes easily, can probably help her come around. I think in the scenario, she wants to be a Christian wife, but is a ewe without a shepherd, so to speak. This, like many modern Christian marriages, is a problem amenable… Read more »

kyriosity
Member

A completely nonsubstantive comment: I’d reconsider the names of the couple.

buckyinky
Guest
buckyinky

I figured it was intentional?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Only if they have six children.

Jane
Member

Eight.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

If I can’t get that much right, it’s a good thing I’m not on a quiz show being asked how many children the Duggar clan has produced. On the other hand, I do know Honey Boo Boo’s family’s recipe for spaghetti which they call sketty. It horrified me so much that I can’t erase it from my mind. Cook the noodles. Melt 2 sticks of butter. Add a bottle of ketchup. Dig in.

Jane
Member

I was going to make that comment after reading all the others. But I read yours first. ;)

Moor
Guest
Moor

I heard someone articulate the hypothesis recently that the reason Feminists don’t call out Islam or hold it accountable is because the traditional and patriarchal roles of the men in Islam are actually attractive to women who have browbeaten their own (Western) men into submission. The person making the case pointed to the idea that women will put their mate (or prospective mate) into a double-bind situation for the sake of seeing if the man will fold or not, and that while the situation is intended to look unwinnable, the point (at least at a subconscious level) is to simply… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

If we understand that feminine nature is one that seeks to find protection and provision, then while it may seem irrational to browbeat men, it is completely logical. Why would a woman want to submit to a man who is incapable of dealing with a screeching banshee? If he is so unintelligent he can’t stand up to a loud mouth who is his physical inferior, why would she think to herself that he would be capable of outsmarting or outmaneuvering someone more physically or psychologically dominant? She should wouldn’t and she shouldn’t. Men need to pass the female testing if… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Kilgore, I get your point but that troubles me a little. I think women do have to test men in order to choose wisely, but the tests shouldn’t be about the ability to control a woman in a harridan mood. A worthwhile woman doesn’t act like a harridan, period. She takes responsibility for controlling her own emotions and for behaving properly without any need for coercion.

My Portion Forever
Member

The common perception of Islamic patriarchy is not attractive to me in any way. The perception is that women are treated as inferior and not allowed to be beautiful outside the home. The perception is that the purpose of their existence is to make men happy and their happiness is not a concern (hence female circumcision). I know this is merely perception, but if it is at all true then it is a far cry from Biblical manhood and womanhood. Did Christ use the church for his own gain, or lay down his life for her? Does he intercede to… Read more »

Jane
Member

The thing is that women (always able to delude ourselves, as men also are) can sometimes develop a romanticized view of Islamic-style patriarchy — perhaps this is more likely if they have not been well cared for as daughters, or have had bad adult experiences in relationships. They can begin to see the subjugation and restrictions as “protection”, the covering as “saving my beauty for privacy,” etc. For whatever reason, they distort what they see because they want to think that such extreme practices will fulfill something they’re lacking. It’s instructive to read some testimonies of western women who have… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Well said.

I am always quick to try and highlight that not all patriarchy is the same. I support patriarchy all the way down, but only if it is governed biblically.

bdash
Guest
bdash

lol this is the woman that wants a beta male house husband to lay his life down for her so she can keep flying planes…
right
as for Islam- why men like it -I have no idea but a huge proportion of islamic men are gay

Bro. Steve
Guest
Bro. Steve

I do compliment you on correctly illustrating the two mental states of feminism: It’s either fiercely pouting or else screaming in purple rage.

Ellen
Guest
Ellen

MeMe, I have been reading you comments for quite some time now. What is apparent to me is that you believe that women are incapable of sinning. That they are never wrong, that they see all things clearly and never need to apologize, particularly to men. This is tiresome. You claim to be a Christian but you also claim the ability to determine that some portions of Scripture are optional. I can tell you that, as a woman, we are definitely all sinners.

insanitybytes22
Member

“You claim to be a Christian but you also claim the ability to determine that some portions of Scripture are optional. ”

I have said no such thing. The fact that you are now lying about what I have said is evidence that women do indeed sin.

soylentg
Member

Ah, …the old “I know you are, but what am I?” defense …

CHer
Guest
CHer

No, but the fact you’re lying and going into another hysterical misandrist rage is evidence of women sinning. When confronted with the Bible’s clear teachings on submission and other areas, you hem and haw and ultimately reject it.

insanitybytes22
Member

Well on the bright side, Pastor Supervillain will now regain his street cred with the red pills and outright misogynists who wish to inflict justice and revenge on all of womankind for the ills of society, so there is always that. Good for blog hits.

I just wish it didn’t always come with the price of making feminists right, because one of these days I would like very much to prove them all wrong.

Dave W
Guest
Dave W

Meme, honestly. I enjoy almost everything you write here, but this is not okay. If you don’t know that marriage counseling requires a pastor to examine both sides of the story, you have a problem. We are sinful, blind, self-deceived creatures all, whatever our gender. I listen to people every week who give me a story, man or woman, then later admit they “left some things out” after I hear the other side. And I am guilty of it no less. And so are you. Women don’t get a pass from the standards of the Bible just because they have… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

Kilgore we seems to believe that women should not vote and that we desperately crave the abuse and control available to us in the Islamic world. Then there is the usual rubbish about women being sinful, liars, prone to hysteria, and irrational. In case I need to paint you a picture Dave, none of these things are loving nor do they represent Christ. Another word for submission is to yield. It is to yield to love. Men who are seeking revenge against all of womankind are not loving, therefore they render Pastor Wilson’s words null and void. I invite you… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

@MeMe,

I highly recommend you directly address specific commenters and their specific comments rather than your implication that most commenters here are “red pills and outright misogynists”. A change of approach would do much to increase your “street cred” on this blog (and everywhere else you comment). And, yes, I know you claim you don’t care one iota about what other people think about you. I highly doubt that, primarily based on your responses to others accusing you of lying.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I said nothing about abuse in the Islamic world.

OKRickety
Member

@Kilgore T. Durden,

It’s rather ironic that MeMe claimed that about you when she had earlier responded to another’s comment with “I have said no such thing. The fact that you are now lying about what I have said is evidence that women do indeed sin.” Logically, according to her own statements, she is also lying.

bdash
Guest
bdash

as for the islamic world?
you do realize women are the ones who keep voting to import more rapists and terrorists from the middle east right?
Women have the power in western democracy- they outnumber men.
don’t get annoyed at the facts

Arwenb
Guest
Arwenb

You do realize that the feminists and the misogynists can both be wrong, on the same topic, at the same time, don’t you?

My Portion Forever
Member

Meme, at first you praised this article, saying “It’s a beautiful post, water for thirsty souls, much needed in the world today…” so why do you now say that he will “regain his street cred with the red pills and outright misogynists”? Is it simply because he interviewed the husband? Or are you also saying that his teaching on submission is misogynistic?

Joe Blow
Guest
Joe Blow

That’s what happens when someone tells the good pastor he can’t do something. Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead. That poor woman! I’d bet that he’s conjured her up as a small breasted biddy, to boot.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

But not only is he up against you—and you are, remember, kind of a force of nature—he is also up against the entire secular world and most of the Christian world. The problem here is that if the husband is to standup to the emotional fluctuations of his wife, and he should, for the record, he risks losing his marriage, kids, money, freedom, and more to the court system. We can preach to the men all day long that they need to stand up to the irrational feelings of their wives, but as long as they have a legal guillotine… Read more »

adad0
Member

Kilden, when faced with the above, a godly man can understand that he is in a 1 Peter 4 situation, and commit himself to his faithful Creator and continue to do good. Guys don’t have to do porn, and we don’t have to change much government law, we simply have to insist that the Church be Godly and Word grounded. My church is not, so I am staying, and working my church until it becomes more Godly. 1 Peter 4 12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Thank you for this reminder.

I think these are tough issues, and sometimes my dour sentiments get in the way.

Perhaps one day I might learn to smile more like our good host!

craig
Guest
craig

That’s all well and good advice for a husband facing difficult circumstances, as well as for every other man. It is worth noting that it contains no recommendation, explicit or implicit, that unmarried Christian men should enter into marriage.

bethyada
Member

Typo

The Bible does just require you to not leave Jon (since you certainly don’t have grounds), but it also requires you to submit to Jon in everything.

Granted, this is a complicated sentence, but I think you mean

The Bible doesn’t just require you to not leave Jon (since you certainly don’t have grounds), but it also requires you to submit to Jon in everything.

Perhaps phrased like this?

The Bible does not solely require you to not leave [or stay with] Jon (since you certainly don’t have grounds), but it also requires you to submit to Jon in everything.

OKRickety
Member

Douglas Wilson, I also believe this should be “The Bible does not just require ….” or something similar. Please correct it.

Mark H.
Guest
Mark H.

Doug,

A question for you: In this story, you are neither Kate’s husband, nor are you her pastor or elder. I suspect it’s a rare occurrence for a woman to write another pastor for advice. So in the normal circumstance, who should identify this problem with submission in her life and instruct her? Her husband or her pastor?

TLT
Guest
TLT

Is there a book or advice for Abigails facing Nabals? or even husbands who are not complete Nabals, but simply impaired in some way by sin or mental illness. Where the wife sincerely believes in the command to submit, and has spent much prayer and tears on the issue, but is unable because of conscience. Where can such a woman find help? As Pastor Wilson says, the situation does come up quite often.

kyriosity
Member

@TLT — Some of the posts here might speak to your question.

Mamabear
Guest
Mamabear

I would love to know Pastor Wilson’s advice for women whose husbands are true Nabals. What does it mean to be an Abigail now, how does that play out in real life? Since most of these husbands will not just drop dead, what should an Abigail do? What does it mean to be submissive in that type of relationship? What if there are already children? What should family and friends do for today’s Abigails?

kyriosity
Member

@Mamabear — Some of the posts here might speak to your question.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I know that a post can cover only so much ground. But, while Kate should honor her wedding vows, I would want to rule out anything physical that can be contributing to her misery. Anemia, hormonal fluctuation , and malnutrition can all produce depression and emotional volatility, and they are surprisingly common among women with children. And I would keep on trying anti-depressants, as it often takes time to find the right one. A mood stabilizer is a blessing as well. Better living through chemistry aside, I think a husband can help a wife control the inappropriate expression of negative… Read more »

Mark H.
Guest
Mark H.

By the way, did anyone else notice the double meaning in the article’s title?

Sandra K
Guest
Sandra K

Thank you for this. I have been a miserable wife in the past and can attest to the wisdom of this advice, particularly about not giving into feelings when they contradict scripture. (I also saw more answers to prayer, about the things I saw as important in my marriage, when I submitted to my husband.) I really regret the years I spent in ignorance about this. Submission in marriage is (or at least has certainly been in my case) another example of losing one’s life so it can be saved. It can feel like a death, but it is only… Read more »

bethyada
Member

I think this is a helpful letter. Christian women are not immune to the lies of feminists and can feel like caring for their families is a second best; that they have to “give up” a career. This is especially the case if they are highly trained. There is also the idea that keeping house means doing everything at home. While that is an option, I think that wives should run a home which does not necessarily imply doing everything. It is fine to have a maid, a gardener, etc. Of course there are things that being a wife and… Read more »

Katie
Guest
Katie

So this was an interesting read… My name is Kate, my husband’s is Jon and in many ways this is where I have been at over the summer. Very enlightening and helpful to have things articulated in this way. And who knew I could have gotten a studio out back out of all this?! I kid, I kid. I do have a question, or rather a hope. I hope there will be another article in this series that further explains and illustrates the concept of submission. Does submission mean getting pepperoni pizza instead of sausage when she knows that’s his… Read more »

bethyada
Member

I want you to know and understand that nothing said here would apply to a woman who was married to a genuine tyrant. I have often wished that more women would be willing to be Abigails in dealing with their Nabals, and those situations are scarcely rare. I know that there are marriages where the husbands are thugs and bullies, and that their wives need to learn how to bring things to a head. I know of such situations at first hand. When that happens, and it happens too often, I am firmly in the corner of the wife who… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

The ultimate tragedy of this post is that what Pastor Wilson is doing and what he is suggesting, is being done in such a way as to promote and advocate extreme psychological and spiritual abuse. I realize no one understands that and certainly not Pastor Wilson, but this letter really is a classic textbook example and it often ends in suicide or homicide. It is not biblical nor is it reflective of what Christ taught. It is total gaslighting, deny your feelings, your feelings aren’t valid anyway, and neither are your perceptions. You were created for a role, having so… Read more »

Sandra K
Guest
Sandra K

Hi MeMe, I can really identify with your comments. I often thought that to be submissive must mean exactly all those things, and I’m sure there are relationships where it does..but a husband who expects that (ie his wife means nothing, should deny her feelings, is only a sexual receptacle…he sees her only as an object) isn’t loving his wife the way Christ loves the church. That kind of description is a distortion of what God really intends. Eventually I realized that in the same way a husband can love a wife by cherishing her, a wife can love her… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

I’ve been married for 32 years now, quite happy with submission or so I thought. Perhaps the good Pastor would like to explain the helpful marital advice, “Do you have any idea what centurions used to do to disobedient soldiers?” Or how women shouldn’t vote. Or how we’re all irrational liars. Or how we secretly desire to be controlled under an Islamic regime. Or any of the other disrespectful and outright hateful things being said about women in this very thread. To submit means to yield, We yield to receive love. There’s no love in any of these comments. Women… Read more »

Arwenb
Guest
Arwenb

If you see the lies told by bitter men and assume that they are truths that every man believes….

Are you gullible, easily suggestible, or just spiritually vulnerable in this particular area?
If the former two, knock it off. If the last, ask your own husband and pray.

CHer
Guest
CHer

“I’ve been married for 32 years now, quite happy with submission or so I thought.”

And I own 6 jets and 2 private islands…this is the internet where anyone can make any claim. You may or may not be telling the partial truth, but by your fruits on here, it’s quite clear you haven’t had a peaceful, submissive marriage. You can’t be a Titus 2 woman at home and a raging man-hater online.

Andrew Lohr
Member

MeMe, are you thinking of “Kate’s” who have emotionally or physically abusive men in their lives? Your “blue koolaid” suggests that you read husbandfather Wilson’s next-to-last paragraph, but how does his description there of the women in his family compare with what you have in mind? He explicitly wrote that some women are Abigails dealing with Naboths and that some women face abusive men he’d advise them to leave at once. Telling Kate to obey Jon in a many-ways-good relationship, and to obey him rather than some of her feelings…does that really amount to “Lose…your entire identity…worshiping him as if… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member

I did not paraphrase, that is exactly what Pastor Wilson believes and what he wrote.

Tell me,do you also believe women shouldn’t vote like another commenter said? Do you also believe in the marital advice, “And everyone who heard the Centurion speak knew what the Centurion would do if the servant to whom he said “do this” did not.”

Because frankly I don’t understand how anyone in a Godly Christian marriage who genuinely loves his wife could not see the hatred and disrespect towards women evident in those comments.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Believing that public policy has taken a very destructive turn since women have received the vote is not hatred. Women did not have the vote for most of human history. Did all men hate women before the 1920s? Did Paul and Peter hate women, because they did not push for egalitarianism and instead told them to take care of the home and submit to their husbands? My wife and I have had our fair share of troubles, because of my sinful actions, which I regret painfully to this day. I know what irrational anger and hatred are. I know what… Read more »

CHer
Guest
CHer

What’s the Biblical basis for women being able to vote or not? Was the church in sin until 1920 for not making an issue of this?

bdash
Guest
bdash

sssh, do not use logic- don’t you know feminism is divinely ordained?!!
All Christians prior to the 20th Century were either blind of fake Christians unable to fathom the true Gospel of feminism!!!

Leslie Sneddon
Member

To MeMe,
your petticoats are showing

Katie
Guest
Katie

I also should say I am grateful to have a husband who respects me enough to be honest when he thinks my feelings are distorting my perception (as I am honest with him), treating me as tough enough to handle the possibility that my perceptions and emotions might be sometimes distorted. And sometimes they *ARE* distorted. Sometimes I don’t like it in the moment, but I really do appreciate a husband willing to stand solid in the middle of the road even when a whirlwind of emotion is rushing in. He has helped me to learn a lot of emotional… Read more »

lndighost
Member

Hear, hear! Very encouraging, thank you for sharing.

SRB
Guest
SRB

thank you Pastor Wilson. I have a question though, what if there is a situation where the wife is struggling to trust a previously unfaithful husband? He’s repentant and clearly desires to honour God, a good husband now like Jon, but the previously deceived wife (who loves him dearly and wants to honour God and submit to her husband) is terrified to trust him again and can’t get past her deep rooted hurt although she desperately wants to trust and support him? What does she do?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

SRB, that is a very painful situation and my heart goes out to anyone facing it. Sometimes the prolonged deception is much harder to get past than the infidelity. I think that a truly repentant spouse can help rebuild trust by being transparent and very accountable so that the innocent person doesn’t have to ask questions. As time goes by and the husband comes home when he says he will, tells the truth about phone calls and internet conversations, and understands that the wife needs him to be scrupulously truthful about everything he does, trust can come again. But there… Read more »

SRB
Guest
SRB

Thank you Jill.

bdash
Guest
bdash

the wife has her own sins as well… she ain’t perfect

SRB
Guest
SRB

This fact is not being disputed. 1 Peter 3:15 says “but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,” from reading your comments below, and seeing your response to my genuine request for pastoral advice for my problem, I’m afraid you do not seem to exercise this spirit of gentleness. To prevent unnecessary confrontation and due to the personal nature of the post I would politely ask that you don’t… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

@SRB,

As a “member”, I will make an attempt to get Wilson’s attention, but he doesn’t often respond to comments (the number of responses he has made on this post is, in my opinion, unusual.)

Douglas Wilson, This is an attempt to get your attention to SRB’s question above. Perhaps you would be willing to provide an answer.

Valerie Jacobsen
Member

The laziest way to counsel is to let confirmation bias (which is itself an emotional lie) run unchecked toward premature diagnosis and the wrong treatment. Hopefully, in real life, a letter and a lunch wouldn’t lead to these conclusions or this counsel. The counselor’s tendency to assume, early on, that this is ‘x’ type of case creates (and this is an effect of the Fall) a tendency to hear and emphasize the bits of data which support that assumption and to miss and overlook the bits of data which should call it into question. Confirmation bias affects all of us,… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

@Valerie Jacobsen,
What are your qualifications to make such statements disparaging Wilson’s post?

It seems to me that confirmation bias is quite evident in your comment. Specifically, I consider it to be quite arrogant and condescending.

To top it off, you provide “Everyone else is stupid and unbiblical.” as if it is a quote from Wilson. That is quite disingenuous because he did not make that statement.

adad0
Member

Val, I doubt that Wilson feels alone in his Word grounded counsel here. I do know for a fact, that Wilson haters like Claire Roise, Barb Roberts and Jeff Crippen do have problems with confirmation bias, as they are duped by cult founding charlatan Lundy Bancroft re: his deliberately over-broad definition of “abuse”.
Are you familiar with Bancroft?

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

Hopefully, in real life, a letter and a lunch wouldn’t lead to these conclusions or this counsel.

For the sake of clarity:

Are you asserting that these conclusions and counsel may well be correct, but that you don’t believe the framing device included enough information gathering? Or are you asserting that these conclusions and council are almost certainly incorrect, and that both they and any insufficiency of the framing device are all symptoms of confirmation bias?

JDF
Guest
JDF

This may be fictitious, but just barely. This closely describes a low point for us after 5 years of marriage, 2 kids, and a wife who felt ‘unfulfilled, unloved, and insecure’. The more I tried to do whatever it was she needed in order to make her feel the way she thought she should, the worse it got. I was routinely found to be at fault for her feelings, whether it was anger, fear, anxiety, insecurity, her lack of trust. After one of the several counselors advised that I was complicit by being far too accommodating, and also thought it… Read more »

insanitybytes22
Member
Katecho
Member

MeMe seems to be indulging herself in a counter fiction to Wilson’s fictional characters. The result only serves to reveal her contempt for Pastor Wilson (whom she has also fictionalized for her own purposes).

insanitybytes22
Member

No. My contempt is not for Pastor Wilson, it’s for myself and for ignoring what all those women who have been so abused by these teachings have been telling me for years. I couldn’t hear them, I didn’t understand,and I failed to validate the truth of what they were saying. I regret letting them down. Well, I sure hear them now and I’m so sorry I didn’t believe them sooner.

buckyinky
Guest
buckyinky

Well, I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself…it took you less than a day to realize it, right? Compare your comment leading out the comment section here yesterday to your latest insanity entry.

Leslie Sneddon
Member

Ma’am, you seem to be messed up about what God thinks…You hiss to this fictional Kate “God is not afraid of you Kate!”, and “I suspect God Himself will delight in our antics, not unlike earthly fathers often do.”
Yep, certifiable BS!

FYI: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.”

OKRickety
Member

Douglas Wilson and anyone else who wishes to learn more about MeMe’s reaction to this post,

I recommend you read the above linked post on MeMe’s blog. You will likely gain great insight into her world.

Much like the adage “If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”, many things look to MeMe like abuse or justification for abuse.

JDF
Guest
JDF

Whole. Lee. COW. Insight is right.

CHer
Guest
CHer

I’m trying to find the Scriptural basis for this: “You own your own feelings Kate, they are yours and your perceptions are valid.” Maybe it’s 2 Oprah 4:11?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

It is sandwiched between “Spend your entire lifetime on an endless voyage of self-discovery” and “You are a sensitive soul from whom little can be expected because you are so special.”

CHer
Guest
CHer

I’d be careful about spending too much time at her blog, though–especially the comment section. It’s the ultimate echo chamber. Here’s one of her comments: “Let’s try another thought experiment, do you think I’m a heretic? A Jezebel? In rebellion, a disgrace to God Himself, a liar, irrational, someone who shouldn’t be allowed to vote, insane? Because I have been called all those names and worse in Pastor Wilson’s threads many times. That is flat out verbal abuse and disrespect.” The reality is MeMe has lied about people and circumstances multiple times here and on other blogs. Some were outright… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

Love your description of the comments on MeMe’s blog as the “ultimate echo chamber”! I personally think of it as a mutual admiration society.

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

Um, wow. Okay, let’s dig in: Dearest Kate, Whatever possessed you to write to Pastor Wilson about being a miserable wife? As you well know, the man’s entire women’s ministry consists of only two words, “wives submit.” It should come as no surprise that you, my precious one, are nothing more to him than his daily dose of confirmation bias and his cure for what ails you is of course going to be, “wives submit.” This is brazen, deliberate lying. Here are a couple counterexamples, just on this blog: https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/tamar-temptress.html https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/109900.html You are peddling in false accusation. I don’t know… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

@Vva70, – MeMe’s post on her blog: “Even Pastor Wilson says it, Jon doesn’t know how to love.” – Vva70’s comment: “Except that Wilson never says this.” In fact, Wilson says quite the opposite to MeMe’s claim: “Jon loves you, and is very afraid of losing you.” I can understand how the perceptive reader would interpret that to mean that MeMe is a liar. ” You’ve attempted to redefine submission so as to remove obedience to authority, without giving any scriptural justification. “ I have found that one of MeMe’s common behaviors is to create her own definitions. I expect… Read more »

Jane
Member

I couldn’t get past the bit about lunch with Jon.

I can’t get into the mind of someone who reads this and thinks anything other than, “Problems in a marriage. There are two people in a marriage. Therefore, the counselor needs to deal with both people, which requires talking to both of them.”

OKRickety
Member

Jane, I’m quite certain you already know you really don’t want to get into that mind. Me, too, and we are not alone.

Jane
Member

Indeed. But it was confirmed when I hit that paragraph.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

MeMe, I read this carefully, and I get the passionate anger. What I don’t get is what you find in this scenario to provoke such strong feeling. It’s as if you and everyone else are reading two different stories. Yours seems to feature a monster husband and a browbeaten wife, and I think people are taken aback because they are not seeing this in the narrative. Could you be responding to marriages you have seen rather than the one that Wilson is describing? I think there is a crucial difference between validating a person’s emotions and perceptions, and agreeing with… Read more »

Jane
Member

I think I might just have figured part of it out. MeMe’s problem is with the narrative itself: that it isn’t about an abused, brow-beaten wife. That is her whole objection, because she believes that is the only legitimate narrative there is about an unhappy wife. In failing to write that narrative, Wilson is failing all abused, brow-beaten wives by pretending they don’t really exist. Either you’re “rubbing along comfortably” like she and Mr. MeMe have done for however long, or something is terribly, disastrously wrong, and it is the fault of the husband and anyone and everyone else who… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Jane, I think you are right. If we’re not at the Othello stage, then we are trivializing and turning a blind eye. The rest of us see a run of the mill, somewhat discontented housewife–such as we have probably all been from time to time, even if we snapped ourselves out of it quickly– while MeMe is seeing a potential Andrea Yates, driven to insanity and murder by a conspiracy of husbands and pastors. And the more we suggest that she dial down the rhetoric, the angrier she becomes at our refusal to see something so obvious. I don’t think… Read more »

Jane
Member

Yes, but my point isn’t just that she sees something different. It’s that she objects to this article being written at all, if it is not written her way to address the one version of marital failure that exists in her mind. To write a story about any other failure is to minimize those others by pretending there is such a thing as marital failure that is not abusive, and/or is to some degree the fault of the wife. This fits with some of the odd accusations she has made against me, that I have never figured out until now.… Read more »

OKRickety
Member

Jane, It’s sad to see that others come to MeMe’s blog and demonstrate the same sort of attitude as MeMe. There is one there who considers that Wilson failed to cover all the bases because he said nothing about whether or not Jon demonstrates affection to his wife. Given that loophole, she is rather insistent that it is highly likely that Jon does not show affection to Kate, resulting in Kate not only feeling unloved but actually being unloved. Note: This woman says she is a writer, and apparently believes she qualifies as an expert critic of this post by… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Clearly Wilson has failed to get to know his own characters as intimately as the internet SJWs know them.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Good one, Katecho! My undergraduate days in English literature predated deconstructionism and I was taught, as a cardinal rule, to take the characters as I found them. But this form of literary analysis opens up wide new vistas for me. Melville was an animal hater because he failed to tell the story from the point of view of the true victim Moby Dick. Hamlet’s mom is the true heroine because, even from the grave, her first husband torments her with ghostly apparitions. Talk about sexual oppression. All Scarlet O’Hara ever wanted was to have her feelings validated. And Molly the… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Jane, what I find oddest of all is that MeMe has all the sympathy in the world for fictitious women but has such little patience for the real ones she finds on this board.

Farinata
Guest
Farinata

This just seems… I don’t like to sound sexist, but “hysterical” is really the best word that comes to mind.

mys
Guest
mys

From the linked article:

You own your own feelings Kate, they are yours and your perceptions are valid.

MeMe, I perceive that you are a nut job, who slanders people and is wildly hysterical and untruthful.

Leslie Sneddon
Member

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ7sr-jcG1M&list=RDRJ7sr-jcG1M
For MeMe”hold your peace you rebellious pot, the LORD is GOD and you are not”

Tooimportant
Guest
Tooimportant

Any pro tips on how a husband can get a wife to read this without having the message disregarded simply because he was the referrer?

adad0
Member

Just do it and see how it works out.
Pray for a fair reading as well.

If the same works out well on my end,
I’ll mention it!????????

kyriosity
Member

I’d wait first to see if it’s going to be a series, as the Gabrielle and Tomas letters were.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

“People on a board I visit have been arguing about one of Doug Wilson’s posts. I thought he had some good points but some of the people took it to be red pill propaganda. Read it and tell me what you think.”

Ginny Yeager
Guest
Ginny Yeager

“You need to break up with your emotions.” Great line.

The emotional sensitivity of a woman is a good thing and makes her a good mother and wife. But just like anything else, if it isn’t under the Lordship of Christ, it turns to self for fulfillment and becomes ugly indeed.

“…then ditch it all and follow your dreams.” Maybe throw in here the fact that she would be trading her birthright for a mess of potage. There is NOTHING better than kids.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Cats? They don’t talk back, their teeth don’t need straightening, and you don’t have to send them to college.

OKRickety
Member

Jill Smith,

Contrary to popular opinion, you don’t have to send your children to college. And, as previously discussed, it is likely less valuable than believed, as well as likely more spiritually dangerous than most realize.

mys
Guest
mys

1,000 amens, OKRickety. College: Gain a degree, lose your faith.

Ginny Yeager
Guest
Ginny Yeager

Ah yes, but can you take them shopping? Or discuss the meaning of life? Or play “Let’s Dance” on the Wii?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Well, no, although I often dance around the living room with my largest Maine Coon while the speakers blast out “Jumping Jack Flash.” And I frequently have my best literary and philosophic discussions with them because they don’t retort with the half-baked ideas of young people who think they know it all. But my daughter is infinitely better at getting my jokes.

I avoid theology with my cats ever since the priest came over to bless one with holy water, and she scratched him.

bdash
Guest
bdash

aaah, the invented sin of excessive authority…..
and the constant blaming on the husband…

no personal responsibility, no desire to be a Godly Wife – husband blamed….

no wonder men are abandoning the church

bethyada
Member

So Abigail was wrong to defy her husband?

bdash
Guest
bdash

Sarah not Abigail was what God had in mind as an example of a Godly wife…
just saying
Abigail is not mentioned by the authors of the NT

Vva70
Guest
Vva70

Sarah not Abigail was what God had in mind as an example of a Godly wife…
just saying
Abigail is not mentioned by the authors of the NT

Lots of godly people in the Old Testament go unmentioned in the New Testament. How about Jonathan? Or Obadiah?

I think it’s fairly clear that Abigail is given a positive portrayal in scripture. Note that she not only saved Nabal’s life (from David, though God soon afterward took Nabal’s life with His own hand), but also the lives of all of Nabal’s household.

mys
Guest
mys

bethyada- I have wondered that she might have been. There’s a theme in OT scholarly interpretation, and it goes like this: David was always right, except for that one Bathsheba thing. Thus, the Abigail thing is glossed over. It is seen as okay, the whole incident, even by people who today, ironically, would oppose polygamy (Abigail was not his first wife). There are numerous other examples. The historical books of the OT state what was, not what was right or wrong, typically. For instance, has no one ever thought twice that, while praising Abigail for defying her husband, David (the… Read more »

Jane
Member

I’ve seen a good bit of critical analysis of David for that incident. An that’s part of what makes Abigail praiseworthy — not only did she avoid getting slaughtered, she maneuvered David out of soaking his hands in unrighteous blood. Clearly she wasn’t perfect, but I don’t know that the submission to polygamy in a fully polygamous culture is a useful way to measure whether the specific act of negotiating an escape for her household was right or not. Sarah after all had her own non-exemplary moments, not least of which was acceding to being taken into a harem while… Read more »

mys
Guest
mys

But Sarah was commended for her submission by Peter…so it’s hard to say if that’s non-exemplary.

insanitybytes22
Member

Pastor Wilson, you need to address the outright hatred, contempt, and reviling of women that goes on in your threads as a result of the things you write about. You guys are all engaged in stoning the adulteress all over again and your hatred and resentment towards women is apparent and obvious. Now you can dismiss me as hysterical, irrational,or rebellious, but in truth none of those things are true. I am simply quite certain that your advocacy and encouragment of this kind of reviling is actually harming men, and that eventually these issues are going to come around and… Read more »

buckyinky
Guest
buckyinky

If in my measly presence in this discussion forum have a vote, I strongly cast it in favor of not only Pastor Wilson, but everyone else “[going their] merry way.”

Katecho
Member

Rather, MeMe needs to apologize for misrepresenting several folks on this blog, including Wilson.

mys
Guest
mys

So much falsehood. Can’t speak for commenters, but Wilson has never, ever, reviled women, or encouraged men to do so. That is an absurd statement.

Nonnadg
Guest
Nonnadg

It is my contention that Patriarchy feeds the gender wars. Men and women are pitted against each other and will never be allies. The reason: Women are viewed as attempting to strip men of their authority and hence men must always be on guard against women. Women must always be on guard for the Eve Spirit, that is attempting to use them to manipulate men.

So glad I left that sexist environment long ago.

Farinata
Guest
Farinata

and yet we patriarchal sorts do so enjoy fraternizing with the enemy…

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

My life would be much duller without these little skirmishes!

Nonnadg
Guest
Nonnadg

Jill Smith, I’m glad I could add just a little bit of excitement to your life. :-)

Nonnadg
Guest
Nonnadg

Well, Farinata, those are your words. Not sure who you mean by the “enemy” in this case, however.

Farinata
Guest
Farinata

That’d be women, sport. It’s a reference to an (apocryphal?) quote by Kissinger re: the general stagnation along the front in the battle of the sexes. But sensible people know that, taking one thing with another, stalemate isn’t such a bad thing.

bdash
Guest
bdash

the constant claims by women wanting to eliminate men has nothing to do with it?!
Enjoy your feminazi religion- Islam will control you soon

Nonnadg
Guest
Nonnadg

The only way to dignify your response: LOLOLOLOL!

insanitybytes22
Member
buckyinky
Guest
buckyinky

I entered into MeMe’s world by reading her link provided above, and I felt abused by her.

John
Guest
John

Really enjoyed the post! Any chance a follow-up hypothetical letter to the husband in this relationship is in the works? I can resonate with him… thinking that sharing this article with my wife would blow up in my face.

Nonnadg
Guest
Nonnadg

John, perhaps if you both just actually treated each other as equals and equally valued each other’s God-given abilities and gifts it would circumvent a lot of marital problems

CHer
Guest
CHer

Yeah, that impossible egalitarian standard is working out so well for most modern marriages…

John
Guest
John

…are you what they call a troll? Sorry, I don’t post often on these kind of things and have never personally encountered one before. This is kind of exciting! What comes next – do we exchange witty jabs and personally insult each other?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

John, I don’t consider someone a troll until they start talking about sky fairies or accusing men they don’t know of oppressing their wives. But, yes, a witty jab is the next move in the dance. “I know you are but what am I” is one of my personal favorites, but no one could call it witty.

Tony
Guest
Tony

Pastor Doug, thanks for this post. My wife and four small children and I live this nightmare every day, but we’re 11 years in to the scenario. I confess my sin in being timid and tiptoeing around my wife–mostly because of the effect of my wife’s rage on my children, but also out of a complete loss for what to say at a person screaming ungodly nonsense at me. Each of my children have been subjected to my wife’s violence for years and they are all socially insecure and are growing in bitterness toward their mother at tender young ages.… Read more »

bdash
Guest
bdash

you are a man
you are by default the sinner- do you truly love your wife?
do you run your household? a real man cooks and cleans and cares for the home and is an excellent helpmeet to his wife…
Do you ensure you look after kids at all times so your wife can go out and do as she likes
this shows true sacrificial love like Christ.
until you do that
it is your fault

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Forgive me, BDash, but do you think that is a terribly helpful thing to say to someone reaching out on this board for support and even maybe advice? His situation sounds horrible, and although we probably don’t have much help to offer, we could at least give understanding.

bdash
Guest
bdash

Sarcasm…

I just gave the typical response men hear from complementarian pastors

Keep denying it, there are good reasons as to why men are leaving church and family

adad0
Member

Tony, do you have a smart phone or a voice recorder? At the time when my wife was exploring, even if I just took my phone out and said I would record her, she would still be upset, but she would still back off. One time she grabbed my phone and ran out of the house, but I was able to grab the phone back. Don’t be surprised if the church craps on you for suggesting you would record someone being out of control. However, Just the possibility of my wife being recorded did make her explode less. As for… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Tony, don’t pay attention to Bdash; he has a single focus on this matter! Your situation sounds awful, and it must be a constant source of anxiety and pain. I wish I had something constructive to tell you. Do you belong to a church where the ministerial staff will take you seriously and be willing to work with you and your wife. I agree with ADad that if you need video to convince them, so be it. Does your wife have a psychological problem for which counseling and medication might be useful? Would she be willing to go? If you… Read more »

Chandler
Guest
Chandler

Thank you so very much, Doug.