Contents
Dealing With the Haters
Peter Bell of the Sons of Patriarchy podcast has done interviews with former members [of our church] and many of our congregation are shocked and dismayed. Mr. Bell has gone as far as using an old church email list and even publicly posted screenshots of some of our church’s discussion on the matter in his Facebook group.
This has understandably left many of us with a sour taste in our mouths . . .
Seeing as though you have had your fair share of critics and scummy journalist types try to drag your name through the mud, I’m mostly asking for advice on how to navigate this type of situation. Peter Bell’s podcast is small, but I am concerned on a couple accounts. The first is my [family members] were hit particularly close to home on this matter. The other is I don’t know what kind of people listen to Sons of Patriarchy and there is a potential security threat in my mind (seeing as though he is not above sharing emails sent in a private church group with an expectation of privacy).
I am curious if you have any advice to me in counseling my wife and sister-in-law, or to [our] church as a whole.
Thank you for your time,
In Christ Alone,Isaac
Isaac, as a general practice, I think conservative churches should have a security team/plan regardless. And I would encourage your pastor and elders to say nothing to low traffic slanders. If something catches fire and goes big, then answering the slander will not contribute to the problem. If the report is “medium sized,” then simply issue a flat denial without getting into it,
See Something, Say Something
Recently I have noticed on multiple occasions a wife of one of the men at our church speaking rudely, disrespectfully, and often very bossy. I have not observed the husband correct the behavior (I do not know if correction or rebuke happens privately) and the behavior is happening more frequently. I am wondering if I should say something to him about the behavior. My wife has noticed separately from me as well and has asked me to consider saying something.
We are a small church, less than 100 people, but we aren’t “close” with this couple. He is a deacon though and I am currently being considered for a deacon position and do not want something hanging over us in our work together.
Any advice on the proper way to handle this would be appreciated.Anon
Anon, yes, you should say something. But you should approach it in the form of a question. Take this gent out for coffee, and ask him about it. Tell him how it appears to you, but ask him (genuinely) if the appearance is inaccurate.
Seasoned With Salt
Thank you for your ministry. I am just beginning my study of the book of Titus and just started your commentary. But I was approached with a question: How can someone get into Twitter and online disputes where someone calls out someone else in light of Titus 3:1-2? I think it has to do with Titus’s exhortations to rebuke, but how do you see the two (rebuke sharply vs. be gentle and show perfect courtesy) working together in Titus?Jon
Jon, I think it is a matter of letting the Bible define gentleness and courtesy for us, rather than bringing modern assumptions about courtesy and imposing it on the text. Obviously, sharp rebukes and courteous speech can come out of the same mouth, while according to James, brackish water and fresh water cannot (Jas. 3:12). We have the same thing in Galatians, where Paul wishes the Judaizers would castrate themselves (Gal. 5:12), and in the next breath he tells the Galatians to serve one another in love (Gal. 5:13).
Laboring Against the Curse
If part of Eve’s punishment for sin is pain in childbearing (Gen 3:16), is it wrong for us to get around childbirth pain via epidurals or other pain medications? How do we know if an advancement in science or technology is a gift from God or a result of us trying to do things “our way”?Isaac
Isaac, it has to be pursued with a sanctified Christian worldview. It would be wrong to knock every woman out and deliver by C-section. And it would not be wrong in a hard delivery to mitigate the pain. For Adam, the ground was cursed, but when Adam pulled a weed, he was not rebelling.
A Possible Debate?
Would you consider debating Sean Griffin (KIC) on the subject of whether Christ is currently king over the earth?Samuel
Samuel, not knowing the gentleman’s name, I looked it up. Having done so, the answer is no. I don’t want to get into the vicinity of flat-earth anything. Too much math.
Self-Authenticating
I’ve seen you respond recently to a couple questioners about how we know the Bible is God’s Word, and your response is basically that, because it’s God’s Word, we don’t rely on any outside authority to verify it as such. That is to say, by its very nature, it is God’s Word and makes itself known as such, to the regenerate, without the need for any outside reference or proof. I believe this comports with Calvin’s view that, in essence, being born again and coming to see God’s glory in the written Word are the same thing happening to the same person at the same time.
I’ve also heard you say that, if we found the parchments (actually, file cabinet) with the transcripts of Phillips’ daughters’ prophecies, it would be incumbent upon us to treat them as Scripture, since as prophecy written down, in you’re view, they would be Scripture.
My question is, if the self-authenticating Word of God canonized in 66 books can self-evidently be seen by the regenerate to be the glorious, unique, and self-referential Word of God, does it not stand to reason that authentic “New Testament prophecy” as defined and practiced by Continuationists like Grudem and Storms (and Phillips’ daughters?) can self-evidently be seen NOT to be Scripture, nor to compete with Scripture? In other words, why all the fuss to equate prophecy with Scripture, when Scripture is clearly and self-evidently in a class by itself, and as such, perfectly sufficient to judge any purported prophecy today? Doesn’t this view of Scripture free us to practice (and weigh) the very gift of prophecy it describes and encourages, and without any risk of doing violence to the Scripture? Can we agree that all Scripture is prophecy, so to speak, but not all prophecy is Scripture, self-evidently?Jeffrey
Jeffrey, the obstacle I can’t get around here is the “thus saith the Lord” part. Is that true, or is it not? If it is true, then I cannot see any daylight between how I would receive it and how I would receive Scripture. If it is not true, then why listen to it at all?
First, your responses to my letters over the years have set me straight, and your writing in general has helped me become a thankful and wise Christian. So, thank you!
My letter is about no post in particular, but may be seen as a contribution to the ongoing conversation about lawful tactics.
Rehoboam lost the Northern Kingdom because he was “young and inexperienced,” and although I am no longer young, a recent life event revealed some glaring inexperience, from which my takeaway has been, there is a political level to life that you either see or do not see, and seeing it introduces new dilemmas.
At work, an unsolved problem was affecting me and another individual. We had opposing views on how to handle it. There was no mediator or chain of command to resolve the situation, so the other person, being shrewder, simply sensed the authority vacuum and started acting as if he or she had been in charge all along.
It dawned on me that this is often how churches drift left: heretics taking undefended ground. That leads to my question:
Once you see the problem, you realize that strife and contention are interested in you whether you like it or not. But defending something, as opposed to naively giving it up, takes things to a new level. Your enemies will now mobilize. Build coalitions. Curry favor. Identify people with money and popularity and get them on their side.
In pushing back in a church-related conflict, can the sons of light do likewise?Douglas
Douglas, in church-related conflicts, there is a real danger in “going political.” Of course, it is appropriate to stand together with people who see the situation the same way, but identifying who those people are needs to be honestly done. We must always remember that if we think of ourselves as the “good guys” in any conflict, that means that certain tactics are off the table. The playing field will not be level, and you will be at a disadvantage. But it will be a disadvantage that God can bless.
An Unexpected Endorsement
I am not interacting with any particular post. I am interacting with my YouTube feed. I see many suggested channels where YouTube posters are accusing you of false teaching or heresy. I asked Grok four questions about you, concerning, heresy, accusation, and church discipline. Here are the questions and just a summary of the answer on each question. You might be interested, just for fun, to ask and see what Grok says. I do not endorse the opinions of Grok. Because, I almost daily see posts on YouTube that bring up your ministry and perceived problems I thought it would be interesting to see what Grok would say about these questions. Sorry for the bad grammar or spelling. I hope you don’t mind that I did this on Grok. Thanks for your ministry.
1) Has Douglas Wilson, pastor of Christ Church in Moscow Idaho ever accused another evangelical Christian of heresy?
Answer: (Summary) No definitive example can be found.
2) How many times has Douglas Wilson from Christ Church been accused of being a heretic by other evangelical Christians?
A: You can’t count that high.
3) The Bible says in Revelation 12 that the enemy of the Church, Satan or the Devil is the accuser of the brethren. Are not those Christians who accuse other Christians of heresy not imitating the enemy?
A: Depends on several factors, most have to do with heart attitude, but they are probably not imitating the enemy.
4) According to the New Testament what is the correct way to bring accusation and charges up against elders in the church?
A: An okay summary on church discipline and answered in a way that I expected according to New Testament verses pertaining to the subject.Rick
Rick, thanks. Cleared that hurdle.
Another Resource on Empathy
I have benefited from all the discussion related to Joe Rigney’s “The Sin of Empathy” (and from the book itself) and always appreciate the constant return to the gospel within the discussion, as you again did this week in, “Anxiety Storms and the Empathy Wars.”
I wanted to ask if you would be willing to help me spread the word regarding a new audiobook to release June 1 for free (via podcast) that relates to this topic. We at Biblearc have produced a new translation of “The Consolation of Philosophy” and are releasing it with chapter summaries and occasional discussions to help more folks work through and benefit from one of the most influential and important books in Christian history.
Here is the link: https://audiobooks.biblearc.com.
As I assume you know, “The Consolation of Philosophy” was written in the sixth century by a Roman civil servant named Boethius, awaiting execution for a crime he didn’t commit. He struggles deeply, not exactly with the sin of empathy, but with the sin of self-empathy, but is helped by the personification of true Philosophy. We have been working on this audiobook for a good sixth months or so, and thus praise God for his providence, as it fits in well with the discussions around empathy of late.
In and for Jesus,Andy, manager of Biblearc.com
Andy, thanks for your work, and thank you for making that connection.
Future Book
Any good books out there for raising daughters? Especially in the age of over sexualization and modesty being a 4-letter word? I am an only child so was never around infants and now I have 2 daughters and want to learn how to best raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.Sammie
Sammie, as it happens, my wife is in the final stages of preparing the manuscript of Future Women.
Biden and Trump
Just a brief comment on your response to Bill on Biden’s J6 prosecutions and Trump’s deportations in last week’s letters. Both these descriptors encompass a lot of individual circumstances and, in the interest of a commitment to biblical justice, we ought to refrain from generalizing too much, since both programs contain a mixture of justice and injustice.
Some of the J6 prosecutions were undoubtedly unjust. But some were prosecutions of truly violent criminal actions.
Similarly, some of Trump’s deportations are benign. Relatively minimal process is due when flying someone to their home country where they step off the plane free. Relatively more process is due when declaring an individual a gang-member, turning him over to the government of another country, and paying that country to incarcerate him. Not necessarily a full jury trial, but something more than pointing to a suspicious tattoo. Obviously there’s a spectrum, not a dichotomy (maximal or none), of what process is due. But Christians ought to be pushing the Government to apply biblical standards of due process in deportations as well as in domestic criminal prosecutions, and it seems like the administration has fallen short of that in at least some of the deportations.Pat
Pat, without getting into particulars, I agree with you on the principle. This is not a one-size-fits-all situation. But given the millions who came across the border, it should be treated as a one-size-fits-most situation.
Changing Horses in Midstream
Question unrelated to any recent blog post. You’ve talked at times about how your thinking on various positions has evolved over the years, especially in your younger pastoral years (wine/grape juice for communion for example). I seems this is a fairly common experience, some even happen many years into someone’s pastoral, Joe Rigney’s recent change from credo to paedo being a recent example. James White’s change from pre to postmil being another. Almost all pastors who have changed on a significant topic describe it as being a ‘process’ which took some time.
I’m curious your thoughts on the responsibility of a pastor towards his church when he’s in this process. If a pastor is in the middle of questioning his understanding of a once-strongly held belief, what’s his obligation for letting it be known to his elders and the church as a whole? And at what stage of the process should this be concealed vs revealed? Especially if he was hired as a pastor based on his stated beliefs and his new thinking would create conflict. Should he not preach on any topic he may be re-evaluating?
What think ye?Roger
Roger, everything depends on the magnitude of the issue, whether the issue is addressed in the church’s statement of faith, and whether the pastor can in good conscience be silent on the issue. In our circles, ordained men take a vow that if they come to change their mind on the doctrinal standards of the church, they will on their own initiative make it known to the appropriate authorities. This is good and right.
What Is a Pastor?
Long time reader here! I love these letters & answers. I learn a lot and appreciate the brevity and clarity. I’m reading Grace Upon Grace to my dad (73) and I highly recommend it to others! My grandfather was a WW2 POW who served in the Navy and we love hearing Jim’s stories, who has a similar sense of humor as my grandfather.
Here’s my question—what is the Biblically defined role of a pastor? Thanks!Allie
Allie, a pastor is a steward of the truth, a shepherd of the flock, an overseer of the congregation, and a minister of the sacraments.
Untying a Knot in Marriage
I write to you as a former atheist and now a Reformed Baptist, having undergone a profound spiritual transformation. My journey to faith began unexpectedly when a university professor (now my pastor) challenged my worldview, leading me to acknowledge the existence of God, though I had not yet received the gift of saving faith. We then began working through Romans, so I had a rudimentary level of theological knowledge. During this period, I entered into a relationship with my now-wife, who was raised in a sect of the Church of Christ, which I later discerned to be a cultic group. Initially unaware of their doctrinal distinctives, I became alarmed upon her advocacy for baptismal regeneration. Through arguing with her about Scripture, I became a believer. Months later, she too embraced orthodox Christianity, a decision that cost her significant familial estrangement. We were married shortly thereafter.
As we were very new believers having lived very sinful lives, we had a tough first year of marriage. By God’s grace, we were blessed with a daughter during this tumultuous period. However, we struggled to fulfill our respective roles as husband and wife. During conflicts, my wife would often withdraw into silence for days, while I, in turn, would become emotionally incapacitated, fixated on resolving the issue at hand. These disputes ranged from minor disagreements to more substantial matters, exacerbating our relational strain.
Presently we face a concern with newborn daughter. She would like our families to wear a mask when holding her to ensure they do not kiss her and get her sick. On the one hand I can understand her concern, and on the other hand I don’t see this as necessary. When pressed for my opinion, I hesitate to express my true thoughts, anticipating her anger. This reticence prompts her to question my silence, and when I articulate my perspective, she responds with frustration, withdrawing into silence once more. She does not always respond with silence, but we cannot talk for very long before I am giving a long monologue. This stems from her father being domineering over her well into her early twenties.
My concern is less about the specific situation I listed and more about how to lead a wife that is exhibiting these behavior patterns. We have gone to our pastor in the past, which has been tremendously helpful. Yet, I observe that she extends greater submission to his authority than to mine about these subjects. I would like to get to the point where she receives my guidance and wisdom with the same deference she gives to him. Regrettably, when I offer counsel, she often responds by cataloging my past or present failings, deflecting from the issue and persisting in her course. On occasions when she does acquiesce, her submission appears performative—evidenced by her body language—lacking the heartfelt alignment that true biblical submission entails.
In moments of calm, I encourage her to engage with resources such as the Home Fires Podcast and similar materials to nurture her spiritual growth, but she displays little interest in pursuing these. This disinterest compounds my concern about her receptivity to godly instruction from me. I also have concern about our children seeing this behavior and continuing in it in their marriages.
In closing, I wish to affirm that my wife is a remarkable woman whom I deeply love. The challenges outlined herein represent her most difficult qualities, but they do not eclipse her many virtues. I find myself at an impasse, uncertain of how to foster growth in our marriage and her submission to my leadership. I recognize that Christ is the ultimate answer, yet I am acutely aware that I cannot force my wife to submit to me. I am grateful for your time and consideration in reading this letter and would value any counsel you might offer.
Yours in Christ,G
G, I would take the whole issue outside any particular disagreement, and seek for like-minded agreement on the principle. If you are not already doing this, I would sit down with her daily in order to read a chapter from the New Testament, and to pray together about the coming day. In addition to your Bible reading, I would start reading through good books on marriage together. Just read a page or two, and do so with the prior agreement that neither of you will use the time to start an argument. You are just receiving teaching together, no comment. After you have finished two or three books that way, you can start talking about it.
Fire and Fireplace
Your analogy of the Reformed having a beautiful fireplace with no fire and charismatics lighting fires on the coffee table was just about perfect (and btw, I’m more on the charismatic side). Could you get your people to clip that whole bit? I’d love to pass it around.Ian
Ian, I would be happy to. However . . . I remember using that illustrate recently, but don’t remember where. Could you point me to it?
Any woman who chooses a planned c-section “to avoid pain” is in for a surprise!
You read about this in the Internet? …
Yep, right here actually! The response to Isaac’s letter, up there ^
I well remember my mother, who was the generation that lived through WW2 in the UK, saying modern women made far too much fuss over childbirth.
Mind you when she said that her last experience of it was having me over 40 years earlier!
In regards to Allie’s question about the Biblical treatment of the idea of “pastor,” a few gentle contrarian thoughts: if one confines himself strictly to what the Bible actually says, and excludes from consideration the practices of modern Protestantism, one realizes that “pastor” is not actually presented as a formal position or title at all, but as a description (Ephesians 4:11) of some men’s spiritual giftings, among a list of other giftings needed within a local church. The same Greek word KJV unfortunately translates “pastor “ only here is almost always translated as “shepherd” elsewhere in the New Testament. It’s… Read more »
Well I’m glad I am not the only one who thinks along the same lines. The reformation only began the liberation of the church from the errors of medieval Catholicism. The role of priest morphed into pastor, clergy/laity divide continued, and although most protestants would vehemently deny it, the pastor is all too often a mediator between the believer and God. This is seen imo with the obsession in some quarters with ‘submitting’ to pastors, and your spiritual health being tied up with formal church attendance and an unsciptural notion of (club) membership. As you say churches can become very… Read more »
Thanks, Ken, all good points. As examples of your thought about “pastors” seeing themselves as official mediators, it’s common for them to believe (with no Biblical support) that only they have been given the authority to baptize, administer communion, marry couples, admit new “members ,” and so on.
Hebrews 13:17 – 18 (NASB) Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Acts 20:28 (Berean Standard Bible) Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. Philippians 1:1 (BSB) Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with… Read more »
I am not for one moment saying there is no oversight in a gathered church. An overseer/elder is a foreman, one of the team but with more responsibility to ensure the job gets done. Not a senior manager who is out of touch with the workforce being on the 49th floor and likes to organise how everything should be done but has no clue as to the reality on the ground, the real problems people face. Not a philosopher-king to whom we should all bow and scrape because they have a degree in theology. No, I’m not against learning and… Read more »
I LOVE Peter Bell and the Sons of Patriarchy! It’s great to see someone shedding light on the abuses, mistreatment and covered up issues in these church spaces. He and his team are telling the other side of the story, which is important to know and understand. It probably wouldn’t hit so hard if it weren’t true…
https://www.onceforalldelivered.com/p/from-such-turn-away
Ow. That’ll leave a mark.
Little known fact: everybody immediately recognizes false accusations for what they are, so there are absolutely no passages in the Scripture about avoiding running with a mob to do injustice, about the dangers of spreading or accepting slander, or about standards of evidence. Nor is there any reason whatsoever to worry about any consequences to innocents caught in the crossfire of overzealous accusers, since there simply aren’t any.
Oh, wait.
So you mean due process? How’s that going in this country under the regime?
What it must be like inside your head, flitting from point to point, never quite landing, but hopping away quite self-satisfied…
Another fan?! Gee, I must be making an impact.
What’s it like taking a whiskey soaked, verbose plagiarist who seems to be continually surrounded by pedophiles at his word?
Is this Alex Lloyd, Steven Sitler, or Jamin Wright trying to white knight for their savior?
I like to think that, if we could meet face-to-face, I could talk with you long enough to get you to see that this approach to debate (let alone life) is just not good for you.
Lolol, what a gross fantasy you have.
This is not a debate, it is a comments section of a nepotistic slavery apologist.
You think people sharing their personal experiences is slander or false testimony? Have you listened to this yourself? These are true accounts, not something from an overzealous accuser. My point stands, and I appreciate the work he and his team do.
I think his point is that you, as a podcast listener, have no way of verifying or disproving the account. A podcast is not a court, with truth-seeking mechanisms like testimony, cross-examination, evidentiary standards etc. It’s inherently one-sided. You must see that baldly asserting your opinion that “these are true accounts” based on your say-so is not convincing, right? The point is that nobody can know whether they’re true when aired the way Bell is airing them.
That’s interesting, but your side is also just “one side” of the story. You and yours are more than welcome to share your side…but remember that a blog is also not a court:) you all are so hung-ho about the truth and that we can simply find the truth in the Bible…so why do you have a problem with the truth here? No one can tell? We have no way of really knowing the truth when we are consumers…any story can be told multiple ways. Why are there 4 gospel accounts? Because they’re stories from different perspectives. It’s important to… Read more »
You think people sharing their personal experiences is slander or false testimony? I suspect, but of course I don’t know for sure. Other than the lack of reliable, carefully-examined witnesses, the best hint I have for this is the attitude the likes of Peter Bell have toward godly standards of evidence. He admits himself that he is uninterested in being accountable to any actual process of church justice. QED. (It’s also only fair to point out that he makes money off of this. How reliable is hot juicy “testimony” carefully marketed to make a popular and lucrative point?) Have you… Read more »
The profit motive is an interesting point seeing you are on a blog by someone who has a vested interest in selling you a bunch of crap like (probably) ChatGPT assisted books and a substandard education all to fund a cult of personality. How many of his spawn need podcasts?
Who gets to decide who the reliable witnesses are? How do you judge peters “attitude”? How did you determine you know enough not to listen?
A jury would ordinarily make those first two determinations, had any of these claims ever been in court. That is the entire point Nathan is making!
Ah! Thank you for mansplaining! I TOTALLY understand now. People can’t share their side of the story unless they’ve been in a trial and were vetted by a judge or jury. Makes sense. There can be non-criminal abuses…so…
Perhaps you are not familiar with the Presbyterian idea of church courts. But, unlike a civil court, which must only consider certain predefined definitions for crimes, there are no objectively-committed sins that are outside the scope of a church court. It sounds, though, as though your main problem is simply the high standards required to accept accusations. That’s a basic common thread from the Mosaic law on, and sound Christian doctrine formed the original basis of common law principles that were later elaborated into considering different types of evidence (circumstantial, fingerprint, DNA, video, audio, etc). Rejecting high standards of evidence… Read more »
How did you determine you know enough not to listen? When I saw screenshots of Peter’s Facebook post boasting about how he “calls out” people (even pastors in the OPC, which he claims to belong to) for trying to bring him into an OPC court. That is, he claims to belong to an OPC church (and has even falsely claimed to himself be a pastor), but is unwilling to submit to the way the OPC and all Presbyterian churches interpret Matthew 18’s instructions on resolving conflict and calling people to repentance. He has no problem with the court of public… Read more »
Haha, yeah, church courts are where it’s at…surely there can be no problems if an issue is taken to a church court, and the abused are always listened to and advocated for. Seems more like those in power remain as such. It’s still just people making decisions…and I argue that those decisions can be wrong. Jesus was on the side of the abused…period.
Those arguing for biblical standards of evidence are of course right. The internet of itself often does not meet these standards, or to put it differently can be little more than spreading gossip or the nursing of grievances. On the other hand anyone who has followed the abuse scandals that have plagued the church right across the board for decades cannot, if they have a functioning brain, have failed to notice how men in authority will do everything they can to defend the power structures they are part of. The hierarchy comes first. Women are not listened to because they… Read more »
Thank you for this…and I concur. I think we ALL can do better…but a first step is admitting it.
Haha, yeah, church courts are where it’s at…surely there can be no problems if an issue is taken to a church court, and the abused are always listened to and advocated for. Seems more like those in power remain as such. It’s still just people making decisions…and I argue that those decisions can be wrong. I agree with you fully on all this. There are no guarantees; people are fallible, and Christians and even the best-organized churches will sin grievously and will fail to justly punish crimes or call for repentance from specific sins, and will also unjustly punish or… Read more »
Regarding the illegal alien question: What advice would anyone give to an adult American citizen child of illegals?
Vote MAGA Republicans out of office because they want to denaturalize you and kick you and your family out of the country.
https://www.borderreport.com/immigration/part-of-executive-order-focuses-on-law-to-denaturalize-immigrant-citizens/amp/
Pay no attention to “Hmmm”. He’s just sore because his illegal alien gangbanging boyfriend was deported to El Salvador.
Aww, a fan! Quit barking up my tree, you know I’m spoken for ;)
Jeffrey writes: I’ve seen you respond recently to a couple questioners about how we know the Bible is God’s Word, and your response is basically that, because it’s God’s Word, we don’t rely on any outside authority to verify it as such. While this is a circular argument of sorts, one should not therefore assume that nonbelievers somehow escape this predicament. Regardless of one’s religious faith, pretty much everyone has a system or hierarchy of values that define right vs wrong. If my values are derived based on some human individual’s assessment of what is “good”, then it’s the same… Read more »