What Is the Matter With Black Lives Matter?

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Introduction:

Taken at face value, the phrase black lives matter is a phrase that no sensible person could differ with. Of course they do. Also taken at face value, the rejoinder all lives matter is equally true. Of course they do.

The reason for the back and forth, then, has nothing to do with the meaning of the phrases as they might be ascertained from the dictionary, or from a normal person interested in social stability. Rather, we need to be attuned to the political meanings of the phrases, and in order to determine that we have to look at current usage. Put another way, black lives matter would be a wonderful sentiment if we found it in a personal letter of William Wilberforce to his mother. In the mouth of a black agitator calling for the murder of cops, it is an abuse of language, an instance of outrageous and hateful slang. When he says “black lives matter,” it would be better to reply instantly, “No, in the sense you are intending, no, they don’t.”Detroit Riots

Frankfurt Agitprop

Black lives matter is agitprop right out of the Frankfurt school, and they are doing a bang-up job with it, incidentally, about which more in a minute.

And it probably goes without saying that guilt-ridden white liberals love the phrase for reasons related to David Stove’s trenchant phrase — he refers to whites who “having renounced the pleasures of power . .  discover the pleasures of guilt.” This goes double for the evangelical racial healers, who — in possession of the Holy Spirit — do for our race relations what Benny Hinn does for rheumatoid arthritis.

I saw one cute cartoon — cute in the sense of arch — that showed a house burning down, with the firemen hosing down the house next to it because, as they put it, “all houses matter.” But of course this misconstrues the scene entirely. It ought to show firemen hosing down the house on fire, with cops arresting the arsonists, who were hiding in the house next door. The fact that the arsonists were shouting noble phrases on the way to the patrol car should not make us ignore the fact that they were the ones busy with the gas cans earlier.

Christian and Color Blind

Sin, including racial sin, can only be committed in the present. We can and should seek to deal with downstream ramifications of sin from the past — restitution, reconciliation, and so on — but we can never address the impact of sin from the past by giving way to worse sin now. If you are wanting to fix the scars from hatred past, hatred present is never the way.

Now, consider:

1. X shoots and kills Y. He claims that he did not intend to do it. It was an accident. There are good reasons to suspect that it might not have been an accident.

2. X shoots and kills Y. He claims that he did it intentionally, and that all who look like Y should die in a similar way.

In the first instance you reserve judgment, and arrange for an investigation and trial. In the second, you do what they did in Dallas. You should pursue this whether or not X and Y are all white, all black, or some of each.

For anyone who loves Christ, that color part shouldn’t matter. “You shall not be partial in judgment. You shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not be intimidated by anyone, for the judgment is God’s” (Deut. 1:17, ESV).

Do we really need to know the color of X and Y in these scenarios in order to determine what we think about them? If you do not know how you would apply a moral judgment to such situations before knowing the color of X and the color of Y, then — speaking frankly here — you are in high rebellion against the Word of God. The Golden Rule is neither black nor white. The Golden Rule is just the color it is supposed to be.

One Way War

What the Black Lives Matter agitators are wanting is the lopsided circumstance of a one-way war. In a war, you are in lethal combat with a group, and if it is on a large enough scale you may find yourself having to fight (and perhaps kill) adversaries who were as decent as the slain Dallas cops were. That could happen, and it could happen in a just war. It could happen in either direction, or in both, and that is part of what makes wars so terrible.

In police action, the desire is to take a criminal as a prisoner alive wherever possible. Having been apprehended, he is then to be given the presumption of innocence and a fair trial. In police work, you are dealing with individuals as individuals. Sometimes this is very difficult (as in a riot), but it is always the desideratum. When riot conditions become normal, what you actually have is de facto civil war.

Now what the incendiary rhetoric of Black Lives Matter wants is the rules of warfare in one direction, and minimal police action in the other. And the answer is that such a thing is impossible. Being impossible, it may be tentatively ranked among those things that are not going to happen. They are not trying to make that impossibility happen. They are trying to make chaos happen so that they can be in a position to make something else happen. That something else is the revolution. All I can tell you, brother, is you have to wait.

I mentioned the Frankfurt School of Stage Four Critical Theory fame. In this view, those who belong to the oppressed classes cannot, by definition, be guilty of anything. Achieving membership in such a class is therefore quite a privilege. If you are black you can’t be a racist, for example. Correction, if you are the right kind of oppressed black you can’t be a racist. Clarence Thomas can be racist because he has been ejected from the oppressed class for his misbehavior, which was, upon examination, thinking for himself.

Always Back to Gospel

Critical Theory is therefore a social theory that counterfeits the great gospel truth of justification. Aping the apostle, and trying to steal glory from the gospel of grace, the Black Lives Matter movement says to the most hateful and malicious people . . . no condemnation.

But the words ring hollow because they are spoken by liars. Their message is not based on the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. A preacher of the gospel can say no condemnation, but no one else can. If a preacher of the gospel undertakes to deliver this message, he must preach it to every creature. He must do it in the spirit of the words of the Sunday School song I learned when I was a kid — preach to red and yellow, black and white. Does that sound corny? Too bad.

This planet really is screwed up, and we do need preachers of the gospel declaring this message. But the no condemnation is offered indiscriminately to all — Jew and Greek, black and white, male and female, slave or free. It is offered because of the cross of Christ, and on that basis alone.

Black Lives Matter denies this gospel, and anyone who carries water for them is thinking about doing the same.

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ME
ME
5 years ago

Black Lives Matter really is “agitprop right out of the Frankfurt school,” also with a heavy emphasis on LGBT and transgendered rights. No doubt about that. I do have to say however that this statement reveals some disconnect from the actualy reality of people’s lives, “In police action, the desire is to take a criminal as a prisoner alive wherever possible. Having been apprehended, he is then to be given the presumption of innocence and a fair trial.” Ummhmm. In their full riot gear, wearing darth vader masks, what many of them really crave is a confrontation. Call that the… Read more »

Eli
Eli
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

Everyday police officers are wearing full riot gear? Police officers wear riot gear to…wait for it… riots and large demonstrations where riots are a real possibility not when they pull you over for having a tail light out. When you are at an event in which “protesters” are hurling bricks and concrete at you trying to keep the peace you might want to have a helmet on. “Black Lives Matter demonstrations turned violent Saturday night, escalating to riot level, after protesters brought I-94 in St. Paul to a halt for over five hours. 21 police officers were injured by the… Read more »

Capndweeb
Capndweeb
5 years ago

…and what is the media’s role in all of this?

Tom Pfingsten
5 years ago
Reply to  Capndweeb

I was just thinking about this. There are so many communities where the police are doing a fine job and minorities are not rioting. I mean, the vast majority of towns in the country are peaceful and lawful and safe for citizens of all colors.

The media’s role in all of this is to obscure that fact. To what end? I would guess some combination of furthering leftist ideology in an election year and selling newspapers. There is no better newspaper salesman than hysteria.

Capndweeb
Capndweeb
5 years ago
Reply to  Tom Pfingsten

From what I’ve seen, the media appears to be fanning the fire.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Capndweeb

Yeah it has nothing to do with folds being killed and blood spilled in the streets…thus uproar is a giant farce because people have nothing better to do…right.

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Well actually, cops are killing white people at an alarming rate, too. Four in my city recently. So what besides the media makes this a racial issue?

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

*tears robe*

RACISSS!!!!

Capndweeb
Capndweeb
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan, the media seems to be focusing on black people being shot by white police officers. That’s “news.” A black officer shooting a white person is not reported at all and raises no public outcry. We know the media has an agenda. We’ve seen it for many decades now. And the police are often tried and convicted on Facebook in a matter of hours–long before all the evidence is available. Thus, when justice does eventually exonerate them, it’s seen as evidence of an unfair and biased system.

FeatherBlade
FeatherBlade
5 years ago
Reply to  Capndweeb

Well, you know… “if it bleeds it leads” and all that.

What with the precipitous decline in gun violence (per federal statistics) they have to get eyeballs on their screens somehow…

Capndweeb
Capndweeb
5 years ago
Reply to  FeatherBlade
Conserbatives_conserve_little
Conserbatives_conserve_little
5 years ago
Reply to  Capndweeb

Thing is, not that not many people have died yet. If Hilary gets in and does her gun grab, then the violence will go hundreds perhaps thousands in a day.

lloyd
5 years ago

“Black Lives Matter denies this gospel, and anyone who carries water for them is thinking about doing the same.”

I don’t understand why this is so hard for so many people to see. Carrying water for a group that hates Jesus is wrong.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago

I am thankful to see Doug Wilson shows himself to have no actual experience in these matters. It’s clearly evident by his article in which he hopes to attract both his enemies and his minions (see: click bait) that the depth of relationship he has with any person of color, who holds a view similar to Lecrae or Thabiti, in which this is meaningfully discussed is absent. If I am wrong on this I would challenge Doug to have this African-American brother write on his blog the depth of their discussions and the point of view this person has related… Read more »

Justin
Justin
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan,

Could you give at least one specific example of where this post diverged from reality? I read the same post, and arrived at a totally different conclusion. Even if you gave an example of what you disagreed with, that would suffice.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Justin

“Black Lives Matter denies this gospel, and anyone who carries water for them is thinking about doing the same.”

He is saying people like Thabiti deny the gospel. A board member of TGC. It’s pure craziness.

Duells Quimby
Duells Quimby
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

You’re mashing your words together, like my young child who just wont chew throughly before swallowing, and it goes down wrong. Thabiti said that he supports BLM, in that there are some aims of the group that should be discussed. But one can support the aims without supporting the means.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Duells Quimby

Doug didn’t say that though…thus my issue I’d with the foolishness if Wilson…Not the gospel centered wisdom of Thabiti…duh

Duells Quimby
Duells Quimby
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

You’re mashing words together to obfuscate. Doug also didn’t say you were a wise scholar either. Doesn’t mean it’s not true. ????

Justin
Justin
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan,

Does Thabiti fully endorse BLM?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Justin

Read what he says about it…I’m sure you can determine the answer.

mkt
mkt
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Then he’s flirting with a cult, as this article says (which only scratches the surface of BLM’s problems): http://drcarlellisjr.blogspot.com/2016/07/reflections-on-black-lives.html “I would go so far to say that the original ‘BLM’ ideology, which started as a rally cry and grew into an entity, has given rise to a cult with its own doctrines and demands for faith. It now extends beyond the original entity, blending with other belief systems in a syncretistic manner as it exports its own iconography, its own language, and its own heroes for veneration.” Ron Burns (I’ll call him by his Christian name) needs to be very… Read more »

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Being a board member at TGC is not to be equated with Biblical truth.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Thabiti has said he supports protests without supporting the sinful elements of the BLM. He will not be able to maintain that distinction.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago

Same goes for confederate flag supporters?

jigawatt
jigawatt
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Same goes for confederate flag supporters?

But Ryan, do you really understand the Confederate flag supporters (of course you do know they are a widely varied bunch)? How many good friends of yours are Confederate flag people? How often do you invite them to your home? Have you completely eradicated all the hatred you have for these fellow image bearers from your heart?

John F. Kennedy
John F. Kennedy
5 years ago
Reply to  jigawatt

You are wasting your time on Sather. He’s a useful idiot. Nothing less, and nothing more.

FeatherBlade
FeatherBlade
5 years ago

Are you sure about the “useful” part?

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

If they start organizing protests and marches yes.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Thabiti is grossly misguided at best, racist at worst. I was banned, by Thabiti, from his TGC blog for suggesting he might want to wait until all the facts were in before calling the cop who shot Mike Brown a racist. About 6 weeks later a friend of mine was banned when he called out Thabiti for continuing to make the same claim. Look at his blog. You will see little, if any, dissent. He just bans you. So please don’t hold him up as someone DW should emulate.

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

It is certainly noteworthy that the most egregious opinions are not banned here.

Ben
Ben
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

There was an article on there by Joe Carter that examined the issue of blacks being disproportionately attracted to the prosperity gospel, and I opined that it could have something to do with IQ. The comment was promptly deleted.

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ben

As it should have been, since your comment was not only false, it was rude.

Ben
Ben
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

How and why? Add value to the discussion.

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ben

I see. But I wonder if it is just black people. I know an awful lot of white people who play the lottery which seems to me to also cast a light upon intelligence levels.

Ben
Ben
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Certainly there are unintelligent people of all races who play the lottery and listen to false teachers. But the point of the article was that blacks are disproportionately drawn to that movement. Think about it: A slick, well-dressed “preacher” with an IQ of 140, who could have probably been a hotshot lawyer or CEO, versus an average black person (85 IQ) who’s never been taught the Scriptures well. Who do you think has the upper hand?

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ben

I think that any time there is a huge discrepancy of intelligence, education, and worldly wisdom between a preacher and his flock, there is a risk that any false teaching may be more easily believed. I don’t see this primarily in racial terms. If there is in fact a 15 point IQ difference between average blacks and whites (and I am honestly not convinced of that), I don’t think that 15 points confers much protection against the snake oil salesman with the stellar IQ. Even when there are less significant differences, I think people tend to be easily misled by… Read more »

Ben
Ben
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

“I think that any time there is a huge discrepancy of intelligence, education, and worldly wisdom between a preacher and his flock, there is a risk that any false teaching may be more easily believed.” Of course, but then wouldn’t you acknowledge that the greater the discrepancy, the greater the risk? Furthermore, IQ is strongly correlated with poverty and lack of ambition, the negative outcomes you mentioned, and if those negative outcomes lead to greater susceptibility to spiritual deception, then it would follow that IQ plays at least an indirect part. That the average black IQ is 85 is a… Read more »

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ben

IQ is NOT strongly correlated with poverty and poverty is NOT strongly correlated to lack of ambition and so called negative outcomes.

As to spiritual deception, I’ve seen far more spiritual wisdom and genuine morality in the so called mentally retarded than I have in many highly educated academics.

And as I said before your insistence on labeling entire groups of people as low IQ is boorish and rude.

Ben
Ben
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

The research says otherwise. Poverty and IQ are correlated. Read The Bell Curve. They show that IQ is an even stronger precursor to poverty than the socioeconomic conditions under which people grow up.

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ben

I’ve read the Bell Curve. It’s rubbish.

The primary precursors to poverty are political instability, excessive government intervention, and lack of opportunity.

mkt
mkt
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

This is from someone who disparages rational thought and appears to have very little comprehension of statistics or critical thinking in general. And two word book reviews should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

If you want to hear an open and honest discussion on BLM and related issues, here’s one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XK0JahijK4

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  mkt

Well, I must have some ability to manage critical thinking, because I’ve been able to discern that you’re rather foolish and boorish.

mkt
mkt
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

Like you’re book review, there’s no actual discernment there. It’s simply an assertion that fits in your belief system. But whatever. Sticks and stones and all of that.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Not tough when the most egregious nonsensical opinions come from the purveyor himself…there aren’t many worse..other than the crazy racist ashv

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

I believe we have had this conversation before, unavailingly. Given your views about the “purveyor himself,” I wonder why you keep dropping by. If you have no hope of enlightening Doug, is your intention to enlighten his regular readers? If it is, I think you would have a much greater chance of success if you dropped the personal animus and simply made your points.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

It is his safe space. He can attack and judge DW without fearing that Doug will bother with him.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

I’ve got a standing invite to Doug, who was in my office once, to duo back. I included elders from our church on the email. He continues to play there chicken. Any day, any time, I’m happy for him to drop by again.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Why should he bother with you? You have shown little regard to have a responsible dialog.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

You can’t have it both ways…You can’t throw a snide accusation that I’m on here because I’m at a safe distance and then when I counter that I have met with him face to face and would gladly do do again…reply why should he Burgett with me.

Get your argument sound before you yip anymore.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ahh, so he was in your office once! Was he there to discuss Black and Tan with you? Was he there socially? Was he there because you show up on his blog attempting to smear his name? Was he there because you are a renowned theologian? This isn’t the first time you have mentioned “he was in my office.” You sound proud that he was there. Like a schoolboy who just got LeBron’s autograph. Come on. You’re at a safe distance. Tell us. We wait with baited breath. Something tells me when he was in your office you were a… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

Actually, not proud, just sad to see someone despise the gospel the way he does by how he handles this issue. And he’s had opportunity to turn from this and he simply drives in his heels. He “carries the water” for racist bile to seem justified, and in so doing despises the gospel. For a minister of the gospel this should not be.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I so have hope the Holy Spirit will perform a miracle and make his heart of stone a heart of clay…If Jesus can do that miracle in my heart he can do it to anyone

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

You said this earlier, and you also said that you love Doug Wilson. Here is the thing: I have acquaintances, virtual and in everyday life, whose religious and political opinions often appall me. Usually, I am pretty laid back about extreme differences of opinion, but sometimes I feel impelled to engage. When I do, I try to get them to see a different viewpoint without slamming their characters for the positions they presently hold. If I were to confront one of these people, in a public forum, call his opinions wicked, dredge up any past history which I thought would… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Have you read him? C’mon he doesn’t use kid gloves and either do I…no time for it with the battle that’s raging. This isn’t a hobby to yap on blog posts, this is blood earnest serious garbage he’s spewing and I’m going to let him know. Our battle isn’t against flesh and blood. Even if Doug is convinced his battle is with the “intoleristas”… Btw, it’s not drudging things up from the past if it’s in a book that is still in print. Or has he renounced the evil racist bile in Black & Tan? Please link to it and… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

And has your confrontational, take no prisoners style worked with Doug in the past?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

As I said, praying for a miracle

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

Sather’s LARPing.

It’s fun to pretend that hitting people with poorly-constructed rhetorical nerf swords via blog comment is battling “blood earnest serious garbage” (whatever that is), but it’s always, at the end of the day, the activity of children, and Sather should be reminded of this in each engagement where he takes himself so seriously.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Wesley Sims

What’s funny is, all you can resort to when the truth isn’t desirable is attempting to make fun of me and minimize me. Not surprising since you don’t have a leg to stand on and you know I’m right.

Duells Quimby
Duells Quimby
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Man, what is driving you?

mkt
mkt
5 years ago
Reply to  Duells Quimby

Apparently the same rage and hate that he purportedly rails against.

Ilion
Ilion
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

A hypocrite like you should be careful of invoking the Holy Spirit.

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

I suspect Sather drops by because he likes to fancy himself the holiest one in the crowd. I mean, he keeps reminding us that he is, so it can’t be too far off base.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

“the crazy racist ashv”

Have you met 40A^3K?

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

On the other hand it’s his commemt section, he can police it however he wants.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago

So true. But he should be willing to entertain the possibility that he is not correct and not fear an open and honest discussion on the topic of race.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

True, but not wanting to have that discussion in a blog comment section in front of the whole internet is understandable.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago

But as Jilly points out Doug doesn’t censor like Thabiti. If you want to address what you perceive to be a problem then don’t remove those who disagree with you from the discussion.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

I agree, but removeing people from a comment section is not nessesssrily removing them from the discussion.

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago

I’ll stop beating a dead horse but on TGC, if one moderator bans you then you are banned from commenting on all TGC articles and you must reapply to the gentleman who runs the entire site and state why you should be readmitted. Seems a tad uncharitable for a pastor, no?

katie
katie
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Wait, would you say Black Lives Matter can be endorsed by Christians? That Christians must be “very clear that this terror (the Orlando shooting) is completely homegrown, born from the anti-Black white supremacy, patriarchy and homophobia of the conservative right”? Ought Christians to support “a movement that celebrates Black and Brown Trans women”?

http://blacklivesmatter.com/in-honor-of-our-dead-queer-trans-muslim-black-we-will-be-free/

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  katie

Can Christians support a flag, like the confederate flag, that stood for man stealing, raping slaves, tearing apart families, etc…the author of this blog thinks so

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Can a man work for Campus Crusade, opps, Cru, (don’t want to offend anyone by having Christ in the name ) and actually present a well thought out rebuttal to DW’s comments?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

Good one…You prove my point.

katie
katie
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Is that a yes?

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan, see what the Author of Life had to say about the centurion. The centurion was an officer of Rome, a culture that our culture draws much from.

katie
katie
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Your view is that if a Christian can endorse some aspects of BLM, but not all, then he can also endorse some aspects of the symbolism of the Confederate flag; OR that if a Christian cannot support any aspect of the symbolism of the Confederate flag, then he cannot support any aspect of BLM? But he cannot support one and not the other?

jsm
jsm
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

I do actually have experience in these matters. I am a minority. I grew up raised by criminals who were addicted to drugs. We moved around a lot. I spent a lot of my childhood living in ghettos and trailer parks. Based on my experience in several poor communities in the south both as a resident and later as a servant sharing the gospel Doug’s assessment is right on. My family members and friends who are black despise the BLM movement and the liberal “white guilt” peddlers. It is viewed as racist and condescending. I am getting sick of white… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan, Do keep in mind that you and I had a fairly functional and productive discussion recently. I may also know some of your CRU colleagues here in the north east. With that in mind, please search “Thabiti” on this site, and you may actually find record of discussions similar to the one you “challenge” Doug to have. https://dougwils.com/books/a-final-wrap-up-thabiti-anyabwile-and-douglas-wilson.html Also, go to the Christ Church web site under “Ministries” and see just exactly which “groups” Christ Church ministers to. Looks to me like there are some lives of color that matter to CC. After all, Jesus tells us to know… Read more »

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

Well said. I must admit I got a tad snarky with Ryan. Your response to him is spot on.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  "A" dad

Yes, I had one of these conversations with Doug in my office.

Say hi to my colleagues, and send them this link and have them call me.

Give me the demographics of the church…

Wilson is an expert at thistle figs.

Nope, he misses the enter barn.

I never judged you to be Wilson’s servant, unless you identify as his minion?

Don’t get your feelings hurt so easily, I’m simply using similar rhetoric to what Wilson uses. Fight fire with fire, right?

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Who do you serve again ?

You are still missing and not demonstrating the “no condemnation ” point of the post.

Rebukes can be delivered without condemnation !????

doug sayers
doug sayers
5 years ago

Makes sense. My only quibble would be to note that under the BLM label (like others) there is likely a spectrum that ranges from militant haters who will seize any reason to resort to violence – to those who won’t resort to violence but are glad when others do – to those who want no violence at all but are justifiably angry and frightened when unqualified police officers abuse their authority and rush to judgment. They just want to “get along.” You are speaking, here, as if everyone under the BLM umbrella is unified behind the most angry voices. Probably… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  doug sayers

Great point, but to understand this you’d have to desire to root out the racist hate in your own heart. Doug obviously has no desire to do that. He wants to figure out ways to justify his racist crazy ideals (see Black & Tan, crazy he hasn’t renounced this book/garbage)

gfkdzdds
gfkdzdds
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

And your hatred of DW is obvious going back a long, long time.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  gfkdzdds

I hate the sinful craziness of racism he defends, but I love him…That’s why I continue to share truth even if he has a hard heart. I know the Holy Spirit can soften it because it’s happened to me.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug, you know them well, you wrote Black and Tan…And what was that plagiarized one (I lose count)

jigawatt
jigawatt
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

I asked you to produce a racist quote, not a quote that your favorite historians would laugh at.

Oh, but Doug, haven’t you been paying attention? Just take the latest developments amongst the climate change overloards. Questioning Authority, be it historical, scientific, legal, whatever (so long as it’s progressive) is nowadays prima facie evidence of hatred, racism, bigotry, sciencephobia, etc. No other possible source of disagreement is even entertained.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jigawatt

The only guy who can’t handle being questioned is your guy Wilson.

jigawatt
jigawatt
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

The only guy who can’t handle being questioned is your guy Wilson.

AFAIK Wilson has never lobbed any ad hominem toward you, while you have done so toward him repeatedly. He responded to your comments with a calm invitation to back up your claims. He didn’t delete your comment; he didn’t block you (and some here have said they’ve been blocked at TGC); he didn’t shout you down.

Which one is Doug and which one is you?
http://adam4d.com/challenge-beliefs/

P.S. And I’m still waiting to hear how many of your good friends are Confederate sympathizers.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jigawatt

He blocked me on Twitter, because I blocked him.

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Grade school, anyone?

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Because if someone blocks you but keeps lobbing stuff at you, it’s irritating to keep seeing the stuff lobbed at you and not be able to respond. But you admit you’re the one who initiated the blocking so I hardly see how this constitutes him not being able to “handle being questioned.”

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

You can attempt to explain away your racism. But to credit Christianity as creating a never before seen “multi-racial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world.” That system, that you write glowingly about, dehumanized solely based on race, attempted to make humans created in the image of God less than human, and the sins of which that system spawned we are still dealing with today. Yes, sir, that is what high call text book racism. Again, my challenge still stands, have a guest blog post by an African American brother in… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

I know many folks who say abortion is a horror, evil, and don’t want any to happen. But support the establishment that supports abortion. That means, even if unintentional, they are complicit in allowing murder to be legal.

To write about the horrors of racism, but to still write glowing comments about the outcome of the system that was based on racist evil, makes you a supporter of racist evil.

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Do you say that to the black people you know who voted for Obama?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Wesley Sims

Wilson does.

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

That’s not what I asked.

Do you condemn black people who voted, because they thought a black president would work more in the interests of black people as opposed to McCain or Romney, for Barack Obama and indirectly (or maybe even directly) supporting abortion?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Wesley Sims

Wilson does.

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Shouldn’t he?

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

“And if I did what you describe with an African-American friend, when we were all done, you would call him a racist too.”

“That means, even if unintentional, they are complicit in allowing murder to be legal.”

Well that was quick…

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

American slavery, at it’s core, was built on racism. To write statements of support for that system, and publish those statements in books, is direct support for racism.

As you so well outline, one can’t support political candidates supportive of the ghoulish practices of the abortion industry, without also supporting, by default, abortion. The same holds foryou and your racist supportive views on American slavery.

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Your parenthetical remark is an example of the kind of dig that makes you lose all credibility when you claim to love Doug.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

You mean when I simply state a fact…and I do lose count…now there are like what 3 other books being called into question and investigated?

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Okay, so tell us your loving Christian motive for stating that fact. How does it add to your point that Doug is racist?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

It should cast even further doubt on the accuracy of his “historical claims” about the joys of slavery for those enslaved. Which would further emphasize how racist it is to write nonsense in support of a system that was built upon seeing African American’s as less than human. Meaning, if you are willing to steal another person’s words to support your own beliefs about how good slavery was, you most likely would have no problem making up “historical claims” with no proof of their existence. (I’m still waiting btw for all the historical evidence Wilson has to highlight how wonderful… Read more »

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Well, if we separate from the emotion and hyperbole and view history without the reaction, we do know that many different people suffered the abuse of the times. There was indentured servitude, the dirty Irish, the Chinese railroad workers, wops and redneck fruit pickers. Heck, the average life span was 40 and we were most likely to die of dysentery. So context is everything. People all through time have suffered atrocities. Look at Poland and the number of people executed outright during WW2. And of course, today we have more slavery than ever,it is just that the vast majority of… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

I’m confused, are you saying these things were honoring and representative of a Christian society? Because my issue is Wilson writes as if the system of southern slavery was pretty much the greatest society ever known to mankind.

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

I’m saying these things must be put in context and viewed with a bit of detachment. We’re horrified by the immorality of slavery today, but not so horrified by the number of black children being aborted or the rates of black on black violence in our streets today. There’s also the fact that even after freedom, many slaves remained behind,not because slavery was awesome,but because sharecropping and devastating poverty wasn’t a lot of fun either. Look at the Israelites wanting to go back to Egypt as slaves because at least they had food and shelter. So these aren’t so much… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan, this would be much easier if you would just read what Wilson said: DW Oct. 2013 “Because abuse was not mandatory (either in Rome or in America), it was therefore possible for a Christian owner of slaves to heed the ameliorating teaching given by the apostle Paul. In both systems, slave owners had the liberty to treat their slaves well. This would obviously include treating them well in the way their church leaders required. Obedience in the midst of a corrupt and fallen system was therefore possible in 50 A.D and in 1850 A.D. But, I would point out… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

For instance, in the US, women did not have the right to vote, Nation wide, until 1920.

Before that, was everyone a sexist monster, in addition to being a racist monster?

: – )

Did everyone see women as “less than human”? Was our system based on this?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Slavery as it existed in the South was not an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity. Because of its dominantly patriarchal character, it was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence. There has never been a multi-racial society which has existed with such mutual intimacy and harmony in the history of the world. The credit for this must go to the predominance of Christianity. The gospel enabled men who were distinct in nearly every way, to live and work together, to be friends and often intimates. This happened to such an extent that moderns indoctrinated on “civil rights” propaganda… Read more »

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

“This happened to such an extent that moderns indoctrinated on “civil rights” propaganda would be thunderstruck to know the half of it.”

As a modern indoctrinated with civil rights propaganda have you looked into whether Dougs claim is substantianted or not?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago

Yep, it’s total garbage. And btw, he shows no proof of his claim in his book. It’s racist bile…propaganda to make people feel ok about ripping apart families, banning children from learning to read, raping women, etc…all by the “most Christian civilization” …what a joke.

Send me a link for the proof of that claim…there is none.

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Can you name a multi-racial society in the prior history of the world that existed with equal or more harmony than the one being discussed? That would be a very convincing point and wouldn’t require much more typing than “that is racist propaganda garbage.”

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Dunsworth

I agree that would be a good argument, but I think the problem is in describing a compelled relationship as harmonious. No matter how kind the slave owner, the slave knew that at the end of the day he had no choice except to be obedient with every appearance of being happy.

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Ryan, strangely enough, this issue is not as “black and white” as you would like to make it. As to proofs and links, search “George Washington’s Mount Vernon”.
Examples of both benevolence and bigotry can be seen in that history re: George and Martha’s attitude about their slaves.

There are certainly examples of benevolence in that history. I am guessing that is a real narrative that Wilson thinks should be known. He does not reject the negatives about slavery either.
See the controversy library for Wilson’s position on this item.

Wesley Sims
Wesley Sims
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

That’s racist? It may or may not be accurate, but “racist” is a silly adjective to throw at that

jillybean
jillybean
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

I think Doug’s position here is mistaken but not racist. It would be equally true (or false) if the slaves and slave owners had both been white. I see a problem in assuming that there can be genuine friendship and harmony in the presence of overwhelming compulsion. If I am not free to leave, if you can secure my cheerful obedience by threatening to physically harm me or sell me down the river, then however harmonious the relationship may seem from the outside, it is based on falsehood. I think Doug’s position would be explicitly racist if he had said,… Read more »

jinx
jinx
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Are you kidding?

Dogface
Dogface
5 years ago
Reply to  doug sayers

Great point. I don’t want Westboro Baptist speaking for me, and I imagine many within the BLM movement don’t want a violent fringe speaking for them.

ME
ME
5 years ago

May I just suggest that people may want to do some research about who and what Black Lives’ Matter is really all about? Because this is an organization with founders, a mission statement, and a plan. This is not about “aims” or “supporting the sentiments expressed.” Most people have no clue what they are gathering behind, what they are endorsing.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago

Was Paul ok to say “first to the Jew, and also to the Greek”?

Frank_in_Spokane
Frank_in_Spokane
5 years ago

The slogan “black lives matter” bears a certain resemblance to the Pledge of Allegiance.

“Black Lives Matter!” arose out of the self-defense shooting of Trayvon Martin. “Hoodies! Skittles! Cherub-faced little boy!”

The Pledge arose out of Federal subjugation of the south. “Loyalty to America, not [insert your state here]! Rockets’ red glare! Indivisible!” (And then there’s the Bellamy Salute. No, really … Google it.)

So both BLM and the Pledge were birthed in questionable causes, but blindly adopted by so many others whose motives are generally pure.

(And HOW DARE you poison the well by raising their checkered pasts?!)

Conserbatives_conserve_little
Conserbatives_conserve_little
5 years ago

Black Lives Matter really means that only Only Black Lives Matter.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago

The difference in this response, https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/how-gospel-turns-racial-apathy-into-empathy and the response of the author of this blog to the racial issues in our country, is the difference between making Christ central, or making His gospel secondary to personal opinions.

Christopher Casey
Christopher Casey
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Of course these two responces are not mutualy excluseive.

fp
fp
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Well, well, well. What do we have here? If it isn’t lyin’ Ryan Sather, back again so soon after the last major blog dust-up. That’s a lot of commenting for someone who claims that he doesn’t like hanging around here. But then again, last time Sather claimed he wasn’t haunting this house was when he was surreptitiously commenting under a pseudonym. There’s a reason Doug doesn’t meet with Sather in person: Sather doesn’t deal in good faith. And Sather knows it. Of course, liars gonna lie, so Sather will offer some lame attempt at denial, or some other untruth. Sather,… Read more »

"A" dad
"A" dad
5 years ago
Reply to  fp

Better is open rebuke than hidden love .
the wounds of a friend can be trusted ,
but in enemy multiplies kisses .
????

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  fp

nice substantive points…You make as little sense as Wilson….which isn’t surprising coming from one of his minions….happy trolling

ME
ME
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

I understand, but if we could just have some order in the universe, that would be lovely. Technically one cannot be both a troll and a minion at the same time. Those are conflicting job descriptions. Trolls to the left of me, minions to the right, please…

ArwenB
ArwenB
5 years ago
Reply to  ME

Here I am, stuck in the middle with you~

(anyone know the keyboard shortcut to do musical notes?

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  fp

Btw, funny, Doug did meet with me in person. But I can tell you, he nor I would give you the time of day. You can’t change stupid, so why bother.

fp
fp
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Sather, have you stopped to consider that reacting to me — not once, but twice — is more than giving me the time of day? Your feet and your mouth must be very well acquainted. And since when do you speak for Doug, especially given that you have no problem slandering him? You sure are one confused little puppy. Speaking of puppies, you sure do like to trot out that he was in your office once, don’t you? So what? Again, you didn’t read what I wrote; if you did, you’d notice that I never claimed that Doug never visited… Read more »

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  fp

Then I guess Wilson responding to me twice yesterday sorry of shoots your point down eh…

fp
fp
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

Sather, you make me laugh — in a derisive sort of way. I’ll give you that. For more laughs, here’s a nice, snort-worthy little Sather quote:

But I can tell you, he nor I would give you the time of day. You can’t change stupid, so why bother.

You got only two total responses from Doug yesterday; I often get two from you for every one comment I make, and quickly, too. That’s a lot of bothering there, Sather. You seem bothered.

Dunsworth
Dunsworth
5 years ago
Reply to  Ryan Sather

How do you know what shoots down his point if you didn’t read his comment? You’re a marvel, you are.

Ryan Sather
Ryan Sather
5 years ago
Reply to  fp

Btw, if you could write well…I might be interested in reading. But what you write is so nonsensical and boring…I’m just going to pass…I didn’t need a nap right now….peace

dal
dal
5 years ago

Haven’t seen much on one line from the now infamous race rally speach at the Police memorial. The Organizer turns to the police and States that he is their best hope. Sounds like a plan is afoot to meld interests and ‘take away their struggle.’

dal
dal
5 years ago
Reply to  dal

I can say this BC I have skin in the game.

jigawatt
jigawatt
5 years ago

“Gunman Targeted Whites” is deemed a racist headline when referring to the Dallas terrorist who targeted whites.

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/15/commercial-appeal-apologizes-for-gunman-targeted-w/

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
5 years ago

This goes double for the evangelical racial healers, who — in possession of the Holy Spirit — do for our race relations what Benny Hinn does for rheumatoid arthritis.

Doug, that’s you.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
5 years ago

If you are black you can’t be a racist, for example. Correction, if you are the right kind of oppressed black you can’t be a racist. Clarence Thomas can be racist because he has been ejected from the oppressed class for his misbehavior, which was, upon examination, thinking for himself. Doug, you really haven’t got a clue about all this stuff, have you? Liberals don’t call Clarence Thomas a racist. He’s an Uncle Tom. Racist means white gentile. Thomas is not a white gentile. Cucks and Judeochristians try to call Obongo, Holder, and Lynch racist. And everyone just laughs. Because… Read more »

jigawatt
jigawatt
5 years ago

Liberals don’t call Clarence Thomas a racist.

Apparently Jezebel is not a liberal publication.

Imagine the mental gymnastics required to be a racist black person! And yet Justice Thomas has achieved this feat with impressive aplomb.

(Warning, R-rated language that is typical of the progressive mind is herein)
http://jezebel.com/clarence-thomas-is-the-absolute-worst-heres-why-573696732

mkt
mkt
5 years ago

Looks like BLM is taking more steps to become an official religion. It has its own saints, symbols, shrines, creeds and recognizes one and only one sin: white racism. https://www.yahoo.com/news/tamir-rices-family-wants-gazebo-to-be-civil-rights-symbol-attorney-150123751.html