Thanks for Sticking it Out
I began reading C/A in its infancy. I was on my way oiu of Roman Catholicism. My wife and 5 young home-schooled children came with me on this journey. I learned Reformed Theology, as important, I learned application to every area of life. We learned more of the beauty of Christ and his gospel. Of biblical worship, of the biblical family and we grew. We have visited Moscow many times and considered moving there. We are thankful for Emanuel Chapel in Helena and we ate blessed by pastor Jonas Barnes. We may have our differences but I thank God every day for how he used you on our lives, snark and all!
Steve
Steve, thanks very much. Great to have you along.
Focusing on the Essential Things
Dear Doug, All things being equal, should a boy have a dog?
Thomas
Thomas, yes.
An Antichrist Thread
That Spirit of Antichrist – Dec 27, 2023
“Antichrist Hates Anything Made Out of Molecules”You have helped focus my longstanding position to the foundation that the foundation rests on—thank you.
Some men claim they not only know that an ideal distribution of molecules exists, but what that distribution is,
And that it can be achieved by inhibiting people from exercising dominion.
Undeterred by the plain truth that water is by far the greatest greenhouse gas, thankfully or we’d all freeze. At any given point about 50% or the earth is covered by cloud.
They mess around with mandating paper straw use. Much to the chagrin of the occupants of family-sized vehicles, idling by the hundreds all over town in drive-thrus, after driving miles to get there.
The paper straw pushers mandated use of another item that involves the mouth where words come from—the mask.
James 3:3
When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.
Thanks for your wisdom
And Happy New Year
Murk
Murk, thanks. Keep looking around and you’ll keep noticing.
Re: That Spirit of Antichrist
*Preach it!* I’ve encountered this helpful teaching about Gnosticism (and its ugly cousin, Hermeticism) in many places, but its assumptions are so deep in our culture that I am still working on identifying them whenever they rear their ugly heads.
Nancy Pearcy, in Love Thy Body, did a fantastic job of describing upper/lower story thinking, and how it leads directly to abortion, transgenderism, and all the other transhuman horrors.
James Lindsay has done an amazing job showing how Marxism and all other forms of identity politics draw on Hegel, who was Hermetic, and are closely bound up with the occult. The gnosis in Theory is the special double view of the world that you can only attain by belonging to an oppressed class.
I would like to add that Gnostic contempt for the material also led to ancient Greek sexism, since women are pretty much permanently stuck in the material realm, and to the modern kind of sexism that seeks to eradicate motherhood.
I was talking last summer with an exvangelical loved one who had already admitted she is Gnostic. She kept stating Gnostic doctrine and then saying, “I don’t see how that’s any different from anything Jesus taught.” When finally I gave her a very clear summary of the Apostle’s Creed and pointed out how it differs from Gnosticism, she was deeply “hurt.” One tragedy of the false teaching is how it makes people unable to think clearly.
Jennifer
Jennifer, yes. Gnosticism is a true fog.
That Spirit of Antichrist
Pastor and brother, could you provide some additional applications of this to the church? What other abstinences is the antichrist peddling? And how do you differentiate living sparsely for the sake of the gospel (as Paul did) and a gnostic asceticism?
Thanks and I appreciate your ministry.
Darryl
Darryl, the distinction is between fasting for fasting’s sake, and fasting as preparation for the festival. The devil is stingy, not God. The devil wants you to learn to be stingy the way he is, and to use words like sustainability while you are doing it. Food, energy, water use, you name it.
Transgenderism is little more than a modern manifestation of the gnostic lie. The corrupt cosmos played a trick on you. Your spirit, your pristine soul, has been trapped in the wrong flesh but with pharmaceuticals and surgery you can be set free . . . until your DNA exposes the lie.
RCL
RCL, yes. The actual world is stubborn.
“In the passage from 2 John, notice the close connection between a refusal to walk in love and a denial of the Incarnation. The traffic should go the other way as well. High doctrine and loving interactions go together. All those who affirm that the Second Person of the Trinity took on human flesh at Bethlehem should be in the forefront of embracing what it means to love our brothers and neighbors in material ways.”
This is so right, but also too easy, because those (of low and high doctrine) who love their own salvation tend to really love Christ, and want to express it. The overflow of this love may not be manifested in tangible ways (such as material gifts) because of pride, complacency, or sheer size of a church body (Antichrist elements of the modern USA?)
The lot of us may not be denying the incarnation, but may be being denied expressing deep love for our own salvation, via expressions of overt love (tangible and intangible) in the form of sacrifice and hand-wrapped (material) gifts for one another—because of material issues outside our immediate control.
I don’t refuse to walk in love. I refuse to be told that I might be unloving simply because I don’t know who my (immediate) brethren are.
Julie
Julie, I think the parable of the Good Samaritan answers the question. Who is my neighbor? The person in front of me now.
Metaphysics and a Family Tangle
Hi Doug. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, & 2 questions.
1 is metaphysical, 1 is pastoral.
#1. Was logic created?
#2. My brother—who has had his share of tumultuous relationships-has just entered what I believe to be another tumultuous relationship. Recently we discovered that a friend of ours, whom we knew well 20+ years ago, and professed and lived the life of a Christian then, has recently been divorced from her husband. The reason for the divorce is, her husband of 20 years, now believes he is gay.
So, my brother, being 43 and in desperate want of a Christian wife, swooped in and began communicating with this woman. Now, communicating and only communicating is what they did at first because, well, that’s all that was physically possible; he lives [on one side of the country, she on the other]. At first, it seemed from what he had told me that the two really were hitting it off. That was until he told me that she was not so much a Christian anymore. In so many words she has “deconstructed ” and has all but abandoned what she was brought up to believe. She is sympathetic to her gay husband and the LGBTQ+ world. She is not actually completely divorced yet, and although she is process , she “co-parents ” with her ex. For example: they spend time together cutting down trees with their 16-year-old son, and decorating for Christmas. On top of this, our old friend was apparently making seductive promises to my brother for when he visited us . . . for Christmas.
Now, after listening for weeks and not rushing to judgment, after my brother told me of all of the red flags above, I of course encouraged him to FLEE this trap. He was sooooo close to ending things and told me he was on the phone doing so. However, within seconds everything changed and he shut me down. He wouldn’t talk to me anymore about the relationship, and has lashed out at me for holding him to the realities that he revealed to me about her. He had been home for 2 weeks for Christmas, has spent countless hours with her alone, and insists I say nothing more to him than “I am happy for you bro.” He calls me prideful and curses me out when I try to give advice.
All of this to say and ask, I have resolved to not advise him anymore because he only wants his ears to be tickled. Yet he is my brother, and I care for him. I know when he returns . . . the relationship will most likely devolve and imploded from the sexual bonds that will be torn from the lack of marital covenant, not to mention the gaping physical distance (2000+ miles). When this begins to happen he will reach out to me for help because he has no one else. He has done this countless times before in every illegitimate relationship. He confides in me, decides to be godless, curses me out when I hold him accountable, and then comes to me burnt and alone looking to vent. So, what do I do? How do I handle this? He asked me to go miles with him this way, and lashed out at me over and over again. Do I go another mile again? Or should I make it clear he needs to live in the house he built, that I warned him not to build? How long does one allow this cycle to persist before he turns away from his brother in love?
Sorry for the 1000 questions. If need be I’ll pay a Dollar for each one you answer. Or is that 10 dollars in Bidenomics? Oops there’s another.
Thanks for the time Doug.
Simmer
Simmer, both questions are huge, and I apologize for answering them so briefly.
Ultimate logic is an attribute of God, and not created. It is not over God, for then logic would be God, and it is not a creature, such that God could have made a world in which A was not A. He could have created a world where maple trees had orange bark, but He could not have created a world with round squares in it.
With regard to your brother, you need to tell him firmly that this last round was the last one. You are happy to stay in a relationship with him, but no more advice, and no more commiseration after the fact.
COVID Amnesty Must Not Be a Sham
I am . . . searching for a previous blog post in which you admirably argue something to the effect that COVID mandaters were “certain that they were right.” I can’t remember the post but you made the point that in making any walk backs or apologies necessitated a recognition that they demonized others who disagreed. Can you point me to the post? I just read Francis Collins’ “Confession” on NR and wanted to re-read what you said so well.
John
John, thanks. I believe this is what you are looking for.
Thanks Much
You and your ministry have blessed me tremendously throughout 2023 and I’m looking forward to another year of your content. God bless you brother. Keep doing what you’re doing!
Tony
Tony, thanks for paying attention.
I just wanted to take the opportunity before the end of the year to thank you, your family and ministry for all your work. I’m a regular user of the Cannon App. The content you produce is so encouraging and edifying. It’s deepened my study of the Word and transformed my life and the lives of my family and my community.
Best wishes for Christmas and the holiday season!
Sincerely,
Rajen
Rajen, thanks for writing.
I am writing to give thanks for all the work you and everyone at Canon Press have been doing, and to inquire about a potential Kingdom-expanding possibility.
First, the thanks: The Riot and the Dance documentaries have been a real blessing to our work here, and the kindness shown by the Riot team was crucial. Through their support, we were able to age-certify Riot: Water to be shown here in Irish cinemas, and have had several successful screenings.
Inspired by that work, I wrote an article dealing with a more specific aspect of creation: the “golden ratio” and it’s connection to New Age lies. The thought occurred to me that this topic, in documentary form, might be able to reach lots more people than an article. The Canon Press team seemed like the best people for the job, so I just wanted to bring the content forward, in case it would be of any use for the Kingdom.
Blessings,
Robert
Robert, thanks for your labors there.
Worthy Partaking?
I’ve been diving into a study of the Lord’s Supper & have come to a question I’m wrestling with—I affirm everything in the WCF , but have come upon an aspect of the Lord’s Supper I see in Scripture that’s not addressed in the WCF.
So I see the WCF communicates how
1. TRUE believers by faith receive ALL the benefits of the grace the Lord’s Supper represents & communicates—an effectual union with Christ—
2. Unworthy or ignorant people partaking in a way that brings condemnation upon themselves
The area I’m not seeing addressed is the idea of non-elect covenant members partaking with temporary faith in a worthy manner.
I look back at the first Passover & can’t help but notice there were many covenant members who were unelect that had some kind of temporary faith to apply the blood of the lamb to the doorpost & were indeed passed over by the death angel, they received true grace from God , that were then baptized in the Red Sea , who later rebelled against Moses & were swallowed by the earth.
So coming back to the Lord’s Supper—can we conclude that there are in fact covenant members (professing believers) who are not elect—with their “temporary faith” rightly discern the Lord’s body & partake of the Lord’s Supper in a worthy way? , similar to the non-elect the night of Passover in Egypt?
So just like we understand that these non-elect members are in fact united to Christ covenantally—can we be consistent by also acknowledge that they can rightly partake of the Lord’s Supper with temporary faith covenantally , while not receiving the full benefits of that sacrament?
Not trying to be overly complicated or anything, just thinking things through.
God bless, brother!
Tye
Tye, I don’t think it is possible to partake of the Lord’s Supper in a worthy manner if you are not elect. The only right reception of it would be by means of genuine faith. But then to your question. I do believe that external conformity can and does result in external blessings . . . for a time.
Continued Interaction on Living Faith
A continued response to Responding to Living Faith Has No Side Hustles—
You asked “Kyle, if I am understanding you correctly (which I might not be, I grant), you are saying that a man is justified independently of him resting and receiving? Is that right? That can’t be right.”
That is not quite right, no. As we both would agree, man is justified by grace alone through faith alone—faith is the sole instrument of justification, and it is faith that rests and receives on Christ, not obedience or good works.
To quote Section 11.2 of the Savoy Declaration of 1658: “Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ, and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.”
In the same vein as my last response, I believe we are working with different definitions of “Resting and Receiving” and “Works.” The classic Reformed view defines resting and receiving aside from acts of obedience, which are works. Your definition of resting and receiving includes obedience, which in your mind does not equal works. This is partly why in my original piece I coined the phrase “Resting and Receiving Obedience,” because I wish to be honest to your position, and you do reject the idea that “Works Save.”
But because your classification of Resting and Receiving includes obedience (which is works) you have added works, even in a minor form, into the description/definition of faith. This is a weakening of justification by faith alone, and is the one of the reasons such men as RC Sproul considered Federal Vision as “destroying the gospel.” As Reformed Christians, we must hold to a definition of faith apart from all works, and yet acknowledge true faith as that which will lead to good works.
To quote Heidelberg Catechism 21—“True faith is not only a certain knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word; but also a hearty trust, which the Holy Spirit works in me by the Gospel, that not only to others, but to me also, forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness and salvation are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ’s merits.”
Thank you for your continued responses—its my hope that we may all come to form a united Reformed front against both threats to the Gospel, and to the Church.
Kyle
Kyle, thanks for clarifying. I understand better what you are saying. Maybe this clarification might help. I am understanding obedience as any appropriate response to a command from God. But there are two kinds of commands that come from God. One is “live!” and the dead body comes to life—obediently. The other is “do not steal!” which some people obey and some don’t. In the latter, refusal to obey is an option. The kind of obedience I am talking about in the instrumentality of faith is what happens when God says live, and I do, He says rest, and I do, and He says receive, and I do. Living faith obeys the effectual call.
Fitting It All In With Joel
I have spent the last six months in search of a good postmillennial/partal-preterist exposition of the book of Joel, particularly chapter 3. I have scoured books, talks, podcasts, all to no avail. I even asked you for any help you could give, on this blog.
But in the end I decided that I would have to work it out myself. So I submerged myself in the book for a while, and then condensed the results into a short summary. I think I’ve nailed chapter 3, and it’s really interesting. Still, I would love to hear what you think of this exposition. Do you think my explanation is accurate (of chapter 3 in particular)?
Here is my summary:
Chapter 1: The book of Joel opens with a warning prophecy: an army of fierce locusts is going to invade Judah, leaving nothing behind (1:4-7). It is an invasion of such sheer magnitude and force that has not been heard of before (1:2-3). In Joel’s day, this portended the Babylonian captivity that Judah was soon to experience. Ultimately, however, it served as a warning for the Jews of the time of Christ, who would perish at the hands of the Romans (as indicated by the fact that Revelation 9 quotes portions of Joel 1 and 2 to describe the invading army). The people must repent, fast, and offer sacrifices of contrition if they are to have any hope of reprieve (1:8-20).
Chapter 2: Joel repeats his prophecy in chapter 2, insisting on the urgency and nearness of the day of Yahweh (2:1). It will burn, devour, and, in short, put their lights out (2:2-11). Who could abide this day of Yahweh? Even so, Yahweh stretched forth his hands to his disobedient people, as Paul says, in hope of their repentance, which would lead to his own merciful relenting (2:12-17). Restore the proper sanctity of worship, God says, and divine favour will follow. So beautiful and elaborate does the description of this divine favour become that we are led to believe that it really will happen—if not to all Israel, perhaps then to a faithful remnant, as v. 32 mentions (2:18-29). God exhorts Zion to be glad and rejoice, as he will rain bountifully upon them, producing an abundant harvest, even promising the provision of his own Spirit, that will produce a revival of vision and prophecy like never before (2:23-29). Overshadowing this, as previously mentioned, the day of Yahweh was still coming to judge the wicked—they would be snuffed out (2:30-31). Opportunity was given, however, to anyone (indicating Jew or Gentile) who would call upon the name of Yahweh—they would be joined to the spiritual city Jerusalem, formed out of the elect remnant (2:32). These judgements and blessings would begin to be meted out in the days of the first century AD. At this time, the Spirit was poured out upon the believers, and many Jews and Gentiles found salvation in Christ, being born again into the family of Jerusalem, who is the mother of us all. Such believers were saved from the destruction that would destroy Jerusalem in AD 70, most of them moving to Pella in time to escape. Salvation was not in the literal city of Jerusalem, as God stated emphatically when it burned to the ground; no, God was building a city with living stones, and the cornerstone was Christ.
Chapter 3: But such profound salvific revolutions require explanation. Gentiles being part of Jerusalem, the holy city of God? Saved? Chapter 3 therefore begins in explanation of 2:32. The people of God would have their fortunes restored through a divine victory over their enemies (3:1 etc). Alluding back to the victory of Jehoshaphat in 2 Chronicles 20, in which the battle was won by singers praising Yahweh, God says he would enter into judgement upon all the nations oppressing his people (3:2). Palestine, Egypt, Edom, Tyre and Zidon are the nations that are named (these are the nations that surrounded Israel), and together they form a perfect representation of the enemies of God’s people. God would entirely reverse their fortunes, showing favour to his own people, and bringing judgement upon their enemies for all the atrocities they had performed (3:3-8,19). As the chapter continues, however, we realise that this war, like Jehoshaphat’s, is not a war to be won with swords and spears. True, the enemies of God would create weapons with which to bring desolation upon themselves, as in Jehoshaphat’s day (3:10-11), but ultimately God views this as a religious, spiritual war, indicated by the phrase “sanctify war” (3:9). The nations, in fact, are to be harvested, not destroyed (3:13). The New Testament alludes over and again to Joel 3:13 (see Matt 9:37-38, Jn 4:35, Mark 4:29), insisting that the harvest is an effort of preaching and conversion — in short, laying out the drag net of the kingdom, and reeling in the fish. Moreover, this converting of sinners occurs because “their wickedness is great” (3:13), not for any righteousness of their own, which is almost Pauline. It is through the preaching of the gospel that the nations are called to repent of their wickedness. “Multitudes” of the Gentiles would be conquered in this fashion (3:14), and thus, in a striking resemblance to the battle of 2 Chronicles 20, the victory would be won by the two-edged sword of the word of God (cp Heb 4:12). “This honour have all his saints”, says the Psalmist (Psalm 149:6). The language used to describe the conquering of these nations is strikingly similar to that used to describe Israel’s destruction (3:15-16, cp 2:10-11,31). This suggests that the judgements meted out on Israel are exemplary, and serve as a warning to all other disobedient nations that they could meet a similar end. Thus, through gospel preaching, the world will flow with milk, wine, and rivers of water (3:18), as they see the desolation that befalls nations who oppose God’s people (3:19). The world will see that whereas God’s enemies perish, God’s people prosper, passing on the gospel from generation to generation (3:20).
The great postmillennial victory described in Joel 3 is to occur in the “valley of Jehoshaphat” (meaning “the valley of Yahweh’s judgements”, in Hebrew). However, this same valley is called “the valley of Berechah” in 2 Chronicles 20:26 (meaning “the valley of blessing”, in Hebrew). How can a valley of judgement be simultaneously a valley of blessing? Moreover, Joel 3:13 says they “come up to the valley”. How can you go “up” to a valley? These seeming contradictions are answered with Christ. The valley can be seen as the spiritual battlefield that every believer enters upon when they “bless Yahweh”, as did the apostles in Acts 4:24ff. In so doing, we follow the spirit of Jehoshaphat’s army, who conquered their enemies by fearless worshipping of God. It is through worship of God that judgement is meted out upon the enemies of the gospel. Furthermore, although we physically remain down on earth when we worship God, we have spiritually ascended to the heavenly places in Christ.
In this fascinating way, I believe the book of Joel finishes in the doggy-eared pages of a good ol’ Christian hymn book.
I hope you found this interesting, and I would love to hear what you think of it. As I said before, I’ve been unable to find any resources that apply a consistent postmillennial and/or partial-preterist interpretation to the book, and it was quite satisfying to finally understand it.
Thanks for all you do.
With sincere regards,
Jost
Jost, thanks very much. This is very good.
Not a Fan
All I can say is, what you have to say in “Have Yourself a Merry Little Postmill” borders on insanity. I mean, on the one hand you tell us, “all the things that have us so worried . . . are nothing but scraps on His workshop floor”, and then on the other hand, day after day, this same postmill causes you to warn us all as Christians what we need to be worried about, to the point you insist, “there needs to be a collision”, going on to pray, “may God soon grant it.” Again, this borders on insanity. Either God is truly in control, and there is nothing for us as Christians to worry about (even though we will), and this means we can continue as a Church to do what we are called to do, which is to love those who hate us, showing the love of Christ as we do, and preaching the Gospel to a lost and dying world, praying that God would grant them the same forgiveness we are receiving, as opposed to praying for some sort of “collision” with these folks.
So which is it? Are we to be concerned about the behavior of those outside the Church, involving ourselves in the culture war? Or are we as Christians given “explicit permission” to associate with the immoral of the world, eating with them, working for the common good with them, showing the love of Christ to them, while not associating with the immoral inside the Church? In other words, should we as a Church be concerned about the rot in the culture outside the Church? Or should we concern ourselves with the rot inside?
Exactly what would we as Christians gain, if we were to impose Christian nationalism upon the United States, while the majority of the nation is not Christian? What would we accomplish by this nation proclaiming itself to be Christian, while our Churches are emptying out? If you say we are not to impose Christian nationalism upon those who are not Christian, but rather make disciples of Christ, then how is this accomplished? Will it be accomplished by preaching Christian nationalism? Will it occur by being at war with the culture outside? Or will it only occur by preaching the Gospel to a lost and dying culture?
I can tell you this, the Church has involved itself in the culture wars for over 5 decades now, attempting to use the government to enact Christian laws, all the while the culture becomes ever more immoral, as our Churches empty out. I can also tell you that you are going to have to agree that the remedy to our situation can only come by the preaching of the Gospel. It is not going to occur by preaching Christian nationalism. It will not occur by enforcing Christian laws, and it will not happen by the government proclaiming this nation to be Christian. These things will only cause the rot to worsen.
So then, why have we exchanged the Gospel for all these other things you tell us day after day, we need to be worried about? I can tell you why. It is because the overwhelming majority of Christians cannot even explain the Gospel. This is because, the Church has been more concerned about the behavior of those outside the Church, than they have about making disciples of those who have been entrusted to them. In other words, the overwhelming majority of Christians cannot even explain the Gospel, but they can tell you what side of the political aisle Christians should be on, the latest culture war we need to be engaged in, and what candidate we need to vote for, but they cannot even make a defense for Christ raised from the dead, and it is Christ raised from the dead which puts to rest all other arguments.
This means, when we as Christians are faced with things like, “Pornography, propaganda, pandemics, police states”, the answer is, Christ raised from the dead. When we are faced with, “Darwinism, socialism, feminism, egalitarianism, fascism, environmentalism, mysticism, the answer is, Christ raised from the dead. However, our culture is not hearing the argument of, Christ raised from the dead, because most Christians cannot even make the argument for the fact that Christ has indeed raised from the dead. Rather, our culture is hearing useless arguments such as, “the United States was founded upon the Christian religion.” I mean, even if we could win this argument (which is impossible) it would do nothing to remedy the rot in our culture, nor the fact that our Churches are emptying out. Our only remedy is, Christ raised from the dead.
The Church needs to recover her sanity, before we can truly have an impact on our society, and may God soon grant to us this recovery of our sanity.
Jack
Jack, the reason all these different issues are not parts of an integrated whole in your mind is that you do not yet have an integrating faith. The reason they don’t settle down in your heart the way they should is that the Lord has not yet enlarged your heart. And I admit that until that happens, it sure does look like insanity.
Re: Have yourself a Merry Little Postmill.
Tremendous word of encouragement. Thank you and Happy New Year.
Scott
Scott, thank you, and many blessings in return.
I’ve been rereading Beverly Cleary lately, and Thomas’ letter made me think of Henry Huggins and Ribsy.
Doug, ref. your answer to Jack, condescending dismissal is not even a nice try.
When someone’s strategy is “Repeat the same bad arguments 28,713 times with a bit more rambling on each iteration,” what else can you do?
Not not necessarily all bad arguments, though yes, there is such a thing as over repetition.
I disagree. He pretty much believes whatever Daddy Government and Mama Media say (about COVID, political issues, the trans propaganda machine, etc.) and throws in a feel-good, gnostic, antinomian contract religion where Jesus isn’t Lord of much of anything.
I don’t know entirely where Jack is coming from, but I note he does not deny “the rot in our culture”.
Can you please demonstrate where it is I “pretty much believe whatever Daddy Government and Mama Media say (about COVID, political issues, the trans propaganda machine, etc.)? You will not be able to do this, because I do not rely upon either. Rather, I tend to listen to folks such as the Apostle Paul who said, “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go… Read more »
“Can you please demonstrate where it is I “pretty much believe whatever Daddy Government and Mama Media say (about COVID, political issues, the trans propaganda machine, etc.)? You will not be able to do this, because I do not rely upon either.” I’ve shown this at length more than once, and it’s clear from reading your NPC regurgitations of the MSM on COVID, J6, defending the perversion of the trans movement, whining about about the so-called danger of Christian Nationalism while defending “democracy,” (something our founders never did). I’m not going to do your homework. “I convinced Jesus is Lord… Read more »
You continue to talk about these things you have “shown at length”, and you have done no such thing. I do not even know what NPC nor MSM is. As far as COVID is concerned, I can tell you that it was real, and that it took the lives of 6,988,666 folks worldwide. Moreover, many folks lost their livelihood because of COVID which goes on to demonstrate that the Church was not being singled out. Rather, a sober minded person would realize the government was attempting to protect its citizens (including Christians) from death. It is also a fact that… Read more »
We are to engage the culture at all levels. “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Stop doing evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor, Obtain justice for the orphan, Plead for the widow’s case.” Isaiah 1:16-17 Jack, the SARS CoV-2 was not the dangerous disease that the news told us. If you read the news you will now see the throttling, deletion and other tactics paid for by our federal government to promote the fallacy of the covid being extremely deadly and to keep those who knew differently from… Read more »
Dave, You start out by telling me that “We are to engage the culture at all levels” and then go on to refer to a passage from Isaiah where God is speaking to the nation of Israel, who were God’s chosen people. The United States is not God’s chosen nation. We as Christians should certainly be involved in taking care of the orphans, and widows, and we should seek justice, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with attempting to use the government in order to enact Christian laws upon those who are not Christian. We are called as a… Read more »
What is a “Christian” law? What “Christian” law is inappropriately being proposed? If it’s in the Bible, is it a “Christian” law? The Bible legislates against, for example, murder, theft, fraud, incest, bigamy, and bribery. Do our laws against these things need to be repealed?
Are laws against public intoxication “Christian”?
John, When I use the phrase “Christian law” I am referring to Christian nationalism. Of course, there are many folks who have different interpretations of what Christian nationalism is, but I can assure you there are a good number of Christian nationalists whose aim it is to infuse, and or enforce the Mosaic law into our civil law here in the United States. What you need to do is to go back and read Rushdoony’s material, and you will see what I am saying. I can also assure you that Doug Wilson is a fan of Rushdoony, and so are… Read more »
So there are Mosaic laws that you currently like to see enforced. While you might have other reasons for endorsing them, it superficially leaves you yourself open to the charge of imposing Christian morality.
Rushdoony never advocated a Christian prince. Have you read him? I think he was happy with the U.S. Constitution.
You agree that a majority Christian people and nation can legitimately have laws reflecting Christian morality. That’s the view I see advocated here. Therefore, repeated accusations of top-down Christian tyranny belong elsewhere.
John, There are no Mosaic laws which I would like to see enforced. Rather, the laws I would like to see, is those which “we the people” decide to enforce, and if some of the laws which “we the people” decide to enforce, are laws inside the Mosaic law, then this is not enforcing Christian laws upon those who are not Christian, but rather enforcing laws of “we the people”. You say, “Rushdoony never advocated a Christian prince”. I never said that he did. However, Doug Wilson certainly does, and so does Stephen Wolfe, which goes on to demonstrate my… Read more »
“…this thing called COVID, which took the lives of 6,988,666 worldwide.” Thanks for proving my point once again about “Daddy Government and Mama Media,” your actual sources of authority. Since the beginning of COVID, the CDC allowed “probable” cases to count towards their numbers. This threw precise stats out the window. There are also documented cases of homicides, suicides, car accidents, heart attacks and other deaths counting as COVID because the deceased person allegedly tested positive. Then there were the nursing home disasters in several blue states, deadly protocols involving respirators and remdesivir that likely took many unnecessary lives, non-COVID… Read more »
My friend, I am pretty certain it is you who is making a point, in that what you have to say is exactly why we are losing our children to the culture, and why those outside want nothing to do with the Church, along with why no one takes the Church seriously anymore, along with why the Church has lost its influence. If it were not so sad, it would be comical, but you are actually making my point, by arguing that the death rate of COVID was not as bad as they say. In other words you admit the… Read more »
Just for clarification, when you don’t mean Mike Johnson is tied to the NAR, just you see some similarity between what he wants to do and what they want to do? I’m not saying there is or isn’t, just asking what you are getting at.
John, No I did not say anything about Mike Johnson being tied to the NAR. However, allow me to tell you what I know. Dutch Sheets is one of the major players in the NAR. Dutch tells the story of how someone gave to him an “Appeal to Heaven” flag, who went on to tell him the story behind the flag, as to how George Washington flew the flag in battle during the revolutionary war. Dutch then began to take this flag with him to show to his audiences, and tell the same story, along with how we as Christians… Read more »
And let me guess…you got jabbed and boosted because you bought into “love your neighbor” and “save grandma” propaganda while that hasn’t proven to be true at all. By the way, some of the Branch Covidian fear mongering was about as accurate as horoscopes and fortune cookies.
What is your way of “speak[ing] prophetically to the culture, warning of God’s judgment”?
Kristina, Okay, let’s just take one issue which would be abortion. It is perfectly within the realm of the Church to warn the nation that if we continue to allow the taking of the lives of the unborn, we could indeed suffer the Judgement of God for such sin. This is far different than the Church attempting to take over the government in order to enact Christian laws upon those who are not Christian. The goal is to bring folks to Christ, and if we are successful abortion would be far less of an issue. If we are not successful,… Read more »
That’s not a great example, since my reason for opposing dismemberment is that it is dismemberment. Nothing religious about it. There are anti-dismemberment folks who are not religious at all.
I fail to see how what you are saying is even relevant? I mean, it really does not matter why you are opposed to abortion. The Church can still speak prophetically to the nation warning of God’s judgement against such activity. The thing is, you can place anything else in there you like besides abortion, and my example would continue to stand. In other words, there is a difference between the Church speaking prophetically, as opposed to attempting to use the government in order to enact Christian laws upon those who are not Christian.
Since you don’t have to be a Christian to oppose dismemberment, that is a bad example of a “Christian” law. A specifically Christian law would be mandating that stores be closed on Sunday, as there is no other reason for that particular day.
Kristina, We seem to be talking past each other and I do not know how to fix it. You started by asking me how the Church could speak prophetically to the nation? I gave the example of abortion, which is a very good example, and it does not matter one bit as to whether one does not have to be a Christian in order to oppose abortion. All that matters in this case is to whether the Church believes the nation can suffer the judgement of God for such sins. If this is the case, then the Church can warn… Read more »
My point was, one is a “Christian” law and the other is NOT. There are plenty of good reasons for dismemberment to be illegal, almost none of which involve religion.
WOW! I am gonna give this one more shot. I can assure you that most all Churches believe that abortion is not only a crime, they also believe it to be a sin against God. With this being the case, it would be perfectly legitimate for the Church to speak prophetically to the nation, warning them of God’s judgement against us if we continue. I mean, you asked, “What is your way of “speak[ing] prophetically to the culture, warning of God’s judgment”, and I give you an example, and you act as if those who are not Christian can be… Read more »
Kristina, Those anti-dismemberment folks are “anti” because God has put His law into the human heart, notwithstanding the fact that there are still plenty of folks that disregard their consciences and continue head long into dismembering even the most vulnerable of us. It has nothing to do with “religion” proper. Religion is what man has created to search for meaning. Christianity is God reaching down to man.
John, I should have made the context more obvious. The Jack I am responding to here is a constant and indefatigable letter writer/commenter. He is long-winded, tedious, and specializes in missing the point. Because I didn’t set the stage, it looked like I was backhanding someone with a reasonable question. My apologies.
Doug, I understand. It did occur to me that maybe you’re just tired of it and consider any attempt at actual conversation with Jack futile. Maybe I ought to have added that.
However, it is presumption to declare that criticism of your doctrinal and/or political views is owing to “the Lord has not yet enlarged your heart”. I would rather you had just said something like “say what you want, I stand by what I’ve said” and left it at that.
John Middleton: “It is presumption to declare that criticism of your doctrinal and/or political views is owing to ‘the Lord has not yet enlarged your heart.'”
Also John Middleton: “Jack is correct to point out that for decades we have been uselessly obsessed…with culture wars…”
Nope. No presumption there. Not even a little bit.
I agree that I continue to make the same points, over, and over, but this is because these points continue to come up. As an example, I have pointed out several times now how it always seems to be that those who disagree with Doug, misunderstand him, or in this case, I am “missing the point”. Well, exactly what is the point? Either Jesus Christ is in control, or He is not, and there are certain things we as Christians should be worried about, and Jesus is depending on us to do our part, and if we do not do… Read more »
Happy New Year Jack, First, we share a working definition of insanity. However from a distance, it appears that Pastor Wilson is getting at least some of his desired results, therefore he continues. If you continue to make points, and yet they fall on deaf ears, or are misunderstood, or are inaccurate to Pastor Wilson and the Mablog audience, perhaps you are the one with false expectations. Pastor Wilson regularly proclaims “All of Christ for All of Life.” Your ‘Christ is raised from the dead’ proclamation is also true. Yet it seems to me that your response, as well as… Read more »
J.F. Martin Happy new year to you, and yours as well. I am not sure what “desired results” Doug is achieving, nor why these desired results would cause him to continue? Allow me to explain to you my expectations, and you tell me if they may be false. I am convinced Christian nationalists needs to find “no quarter”, no mercy, no leniency inside Christian circles, nor inside the Church. Since Doug Wilson is one of the biggest champions of Christian nationalism, I have decided to engage in the conversation in order to determine if I may be incorrect in what… Read more »
Jack, thanks for your reply. We both covered a lot of topics, so I’ll bullet point my replies. 1) Pastor Wilson’s results – The blog has a continued readership which is large enough that he continues to write. For myself, I’ve journeyed from Challies, to TGC, to Aquila, to Mablog. For my time, Pastor Wilson has challenged me the most, and kept me coming back. Individual results may vary. 2)Christian Nationalism – Since we’re blessed with the form of Government we have, over the years Pastor Wilson has challenged me to ask how I as a Christian should participate. Not… Read more »
J. F. Martin, I really appreciate the tone of your response. It is refreshing to converse with one who is not acting as though they must and have to be correct. I do not assume I must and have to be correct, which is the exact reason I would rather converse with those who are opposed to my views, because it is a challenge. I am not going to attempt to address all of your points here. Maybe I will take up your offer and do that privately. At any rate, allow us here to simply get to where the… Read more »
“I agree that I continue to make the same points, over, and over” Not only do you do this, but you’re hijacking another man’s blog to do so. That’s a very slimy thing to do. If you just did this once or twice, okay…you made your point. But you became insufferable awhile back and continue to beat a dead horse. Consider what the Bible has to say about those who lack self-control of their tongues…or keyboards. “In the multitude of words sin is not lacking, but he who restrains his lips is wise” – Proverbs 10:19 “He who guards his mouth… Read more »
You say, I am “hijacking another man’s blog” but the fact is I would guess you comment more here on this blog than I do. I would think one would welcome opposing views, because what I have found is the fact that when I converse with those who are opposed, this causes me to think more clearly about the issue, than simply conversing with those who hold the same view. In other words, conversing with those who are opposed challenges my thinking, while conversing with those who agree, not so much. But I guess there are those who do not… Read more »
“But I guess there are those who do not want to be challenged, because they have already made up their mind, and the facts just get in the way?” Facts? You haven’t provided anything but conjecture about CN, rambling, repeating yourself dozens of times and lying more than once about something you said. This will be my last direct interaction with you. However, since you’ve given DW mountains of unsolicited advice and correction, I’ll offer a bit to you. You’ve mentioned your location and gave a very one-sided opinion of what happened at a CREC church there. For the record,… Read more »
You got one thing right: stating that you don’t understand is a way of ending the conversation because you will never agree. It might also be true that you don’t understand, but it is definitely the case that the conversation is being ended over disagreement, because your comments seem to raise one of two possibilities: you persistently repeat the same objections because you don’t understand the responses, or you persistently repeat the same objections because the disagreement is intractable. Either way, it does raise the question of why you persist.
The letter was not written with any desire for resolution. It was a smorgasborg of lashing out with multitudes of strawmen that have been repeatedly addressed.
“It needed a week’s answer, or none.” -J.R.R. Tolkien
Not all strawmen though. Amidst all that long windedness Jack has a point. It’s just not well received by the majority report here.
John, it would be helpful if you could explain the point that is not received by the majority here.
Any criticism of Christian Nationalism or postmillenialism is going to be ill received in this forum. Jack is correct to point out that for decades we have been uselessly obsessed (my words; Jack only said “involved”) with culture wars all the while our culture becomes increasingly immoral and the Church diminishes. Now btw when I say “diminishes” I mean both quantitatively and qualitatively. Jack is right that Christians would have done better, and would do better going forward, tending to our own house, which needs cleaning and repair. Jack is right that the answer does not lie in the delusion… Read more »
“Jack is right that the answer does not lie in the delusion of Christian nationalism, but in the risen Christ.”
To that point we never have said “either or,” it’s always been “yes, and.”
No to all delusion. Yes to the Truth.
Andrew, You seem to be saying the answer then is, both the risen Christ, and Christian nationalism? If this is correct, allow me to give you some facts. This nation is not a Christian nation in that Christians are now in the minority. How do we create a Christian nation then? Can we consider this a Christian nation if we enact Christian laws, while the majority of folks are not Christian, and our Churches empty out? Can we consider this a Christian nation if we were somehow able to talk the government into proclaiming this to be a Christian nation,… Read more »
It does seem like CN movement is the Moral Majority 2.0. The social gospel will not get the job done. The evidence it right before our eyes (2 Tim. 3).
Who is “we”? Some tiny sliver of the Reformed world and a few other Evagelicals and Roman Catholics? The church as a whole hasn’t been obsessed with culture wars in my lifetime. Whatever influence it once had (Moral Majority, Focus on the Family, etc.) has been absent in the last decade or two as the culture has rotted to levels no one could’ve predicted 50 years ago (Obergefell, LGBTQ insanity, complete lawlessness and ruin in cities, weaponized gov’t and lawfare against conservative Christians). It’s no coincidence this happened as The Gospel Coalition and Russell Moore types did everything possible to… Read more »
My friend, “The Church as a whole” has never been involved in the culture war, because there have always been Churches who understood that we as a Church are not called to be at war with the culture. However, as you have pointed out, there were organizations such as the “Moral Majority”, “Focus on the Family”, along with many others who were involved heavily in the culture war. The “Moral Majority” shut down in 1989, because as Falwell suggested, “the mission has been accomplished”. However, the “New Apostolic Reformation” began in the 1990’s which was preaching Christian dominion over the… Read more »
“This is exactly why those such as “The Gospel Coalition and Russell Moore” have been calling the Church to repentance.” The same Russell Moore who teams up with atheists to attack Christians in documentaries…and battles perfectly Biblical sodomy laws in other countries (which is part of the culture war…just taking the Satanic side)? He’s the one who needs to repent. Paul wasn’t talking about the civil realm in any way in that passage. Moreover, he was in the Roman Empire, not a Constitutional Republic where “we the people” are the ultimate authority and have a duty to promote just, impartial,… Read more »
Are you suggesting that we as Christians are never to team up with atheists for any reason? Again, I am thinking Paul gave us permission to do so. I will assume you do not consider Russel Moore, nor those a the Christian Coalition to be Christian, and I suppose there are those who do not consider you and I to be real Christians, and this is the way it goes, with each of the sides insisting they are the ones on God’s side, while the rest are evil. It must feel good to be you, being so confident and all?… Read more »
“have always been Churches who understood that we as a Church are not called to be at war with the culture”
“For I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man agai st hid father; a daughter against her mother”
You were explicitly instructed to fight the culture war.
I am afraid not my friend. If you will notice, Jesus is teaching the 12 disciples whom He is about to send out on a mission. When we arrive to the passage you refer too, Jesus is explaining to the 12 that He did not come to bring peace but a sword, but it is not the disciples who have the sword. Rather, if you look to verse 38 you will see that the 12 are instructed to take up a cross, and it is those who are opposed to the 12 who will take up the sword, and this… Read more »
“But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” Matthew 28:16-20 Right in Matthew is the biblical justification for Christian Nationalism. Go and teach all the sinners — in… Read more »
Dave, Is Nigeria a Christian nation? Has Christian nationalism been implemented in Nigeria? Are there Christians in Nigeria? If there are Christians in Nigeria, then there are indeed those who have been made disciples of Christ of Nigeria. Is Canada a Christian nation? Has Christian nationalism been implemented in Canada? Are there Christians in Canada? If there are indeed Christians in Canada, then there are indeed disciples of Christ of Canada. There are disciples of the United States, there are disciples of Mexico, there are disciples of China, there are disciples of Russia, and we could continue on, and on.… Read more »
The risen Christcrequires the Christian nationalism.
The cleaning of the house is the primary goal.
You’re setting these things up as opposed for no reason. Who the CN advocate who doesn’t think the house needs a cleaning?
No, and we’ve been over this before.
The house is the Church, not America, and not the culture. CN seems confused on that point, and that’s one problem with it.
Any creed that says “The Risen Christ and_________” is opposed to the gospel of Christ alone, however it fills in the blank.
The Risen Christ and repentance (Acts 2:32-38)
The Risen Christ and discipling the nations (Matt 28:19)
These are opposed to the Gospel?
It’s a half-clever fallacy of applying “Christ alone” outside of its intended sphere: whose merit and intercession saves? That of Christ alone!
It’s also a misunderstanding of the supremacy of Christ. His supremacy is not impaired by his use of means (the willing and unwilling actions of men) to advance his kingdom.
“It’s also a misunderstanding of the supremacy of Christ. His supremacy is not impaired by his use of means (the willing and unwilling actions of men) to advance his kingdom.”
This doesn’t in any way interact with the premise.
No one is claiming God *needs* us to fulfill His kingdom on earth.
“CN” has been evaluated several times in these threads (by Jack, and possibly John M.) as being equivalent to that claim: that “CN” means “God *needs* us to fulfill His kingdom on earth.”
“CN” authors may or may not accept that characterization. My point is that the claim is not necessarily problematic. It can be consistent with both the Gospel and Christ’s sovereignty.
It’s obvious that to the extent that it is Christ’s will to use people to further his kingdom, he *needs* people, even if none of us is indispensable. Remember what Mordecai told Esther.
John, The bottom line here is, are we as Christians called to take dominion over society, including the government in order to infuse, and or enforce the Mosaic law into our civil law as a nation upon those who are not Christian? Now, you may not understand Christian nationalism in this way, and there may be others who do not understand it in this way, but I can assure you that there are many Christian nationalists who do in fact understand it in this way, including Doug Wilson, even though he will insist this is not the case. But here… Read more »
Those are not “ands”, not things in addition to Christ. The repentance called for is believing in the Risen Christ. Discipling the nations is proclaiming the Risen Christ.
Did you know even Wikipedia admits it was Christians who initiated and organized the abolitionist movement?
What’s that you say? Christians shouldn’t get involved in culture wars? Sounds like those Christian abolitionists made a grave, church-emptying mistake. Too bad they didn’t know all they had to do was “proclaim the Risen Christ” and everything would have taken care of itself.
That’s not news to me. Certainly the governing authorities should commend those who do good and punish those do evil, that is their God given purpose whether they know it or not. Theoretically and hopefully a magistrate, or legislator who is a Christian will know it, and will have a better understanding of what is good and what is evil, and they don’t need Christian nationalism to act upon their understanding, just a desire to be good governing authorities. Now I wonder if you cited abolition for your example because you mistake me for a progressive and think the question… Read more »
“ Certainly the governing authorities should commend those who do good and punish those do evil,”
Who defines good and evil?
God does.
Wait, you allow for Christian legislators? But Jack O’Broken Record told us “attempting to use the government to enact Christian laws” was a bad thing. Because as we all know, you can’t legislate morality… well, other than murder, theft, perjury, etc. But we know those are bad because Human Flourishing™, not anything the eternal God, who created the entire universe and holds it together, has said. After all, we can’t have Christians running around, making disciples of the nations, teaching them to obey everything Jesus commanded; that would go against everything the CN deniers, who obviously know better than God… Read more »
My friend, Allowing those who are Christian to be involved as legislators does not mean that these Christian legislators are obligated to enact, infuse, and or enforce the Mosaic law into our civil law as a nation, which is exactly what many Christian nationalists intend, and all you have to do is to listen to what they have to say to understand this to be the case. Read the material of Rushdoony. Read, and listen to Doug Wilson, Stephen Wolfe, and those tied to the New Apostolic Reformation, and these folks will tell you plainly this is what they aim… Read more »
Mr. O’broken Record, it’s ironic, and more than a bit troubling, when the idea of teaching a nation to follow the precepts of Christ, its laws reflecting God’s morality, and culture which honors God — in short, a Christian nation — is anathema to certain self-professed Christians.
It’s like so-called “Americans” who stridently oppose making America great again. Makes me wonder if they’re American.
What you are failing to comprehend is, we are not talking about “teaching a nation to follow the precepts of Christ”. Rather, we are talking about forcing our preferred religion down the throats of those who are not Christian. The first thing we are called to do is to “make disciples”. You can only teach disciples. You cannot teach those who are not. This nation is no longer majority Christian, which means you cannot teach those who are not willing to be taught. Therefore, we as Christians have decided to take matters into our own hands, and instead of the… Read more »
Jack, was the overturning of Roe forcing our preferred religion down anyone’s throats?
Doug, It seems it is always abortion which comes up in these discussions. I guess the notion is, if one is a Christian who believes abortion to be a sin against God, then this gives us license as Christians to enforce what it is we believe upon others. I am certainly convinced abortion is a sin against God, and I am free as a Christian to express what it is I am convinced of here in the U.S. I am also free to vote my conscience on the issues. However, Roe was not actually overturned. Rather, the decision is now… Read more »
“In other words you admit the fact that COVID is real, and it did in fact take the lives of many folks, but it just wasn’t as many lives as they say.” I never said the word “many.” If you actually read what I said, instead of going off in an emotional tissy, you’d know what I meant is we have no idea how many actual died from COVID. We also don’t know how many died from bad protocols to treat COVID or from medical patients not being able to get treatments/screening for other things. Nor do we know how… Read more »
“The house is the Church”
That’s how I used the term in the sentence. That was my whole point. You’re disingenuously pretending that CN’s are opposed to your goals.
They’re not. There is no conflict.
If that was the goal there would be no reason to call it Christian nationalism, and it wouldn’t occur to anyone to do so.
Not pretending anything by the way. Calling it like I see it, even if you don’t see it.
Melville and Stephen Crane were miscreants?
A world with round squares.
The link did not post, here is the world with round squares.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Umg56FG2qTM