COVID-19 Letters. What Else?
Long-time reader from Australia. I sincerely hope you’re able to help me because I need help right now. My family and I have a worry.
As easing restrictions on Covid-19 lock down begin to take shape here in Australia, churches are looking at returning to gathered worship.
I belong to a large Protestant denomination which is saying that part of the return to church will include:
1. Keeping a register of all attendees and,
2. Keeping a register of those who do not use the Covid-19 tracing app recently released for voluntary use in Australia.
The former is at the direction of government, the latter is an instruction by the heads of the denomination (it may also be a directive of government, but I’ve yet to find this directive).
An example of the reasons we are given to comply are as follows,
“I downloaded the application as soon as it came out. I have no hesitation in urging every Australian, especially Christians, to do so. Why? Because it is our duties as Christians to be good citizens, because we are to love our neighbours. Seeking to prevent the spread of COVID-19 to the elderly, weak and vulnerable is an act of love.”
David Robertson, Director of Third Space, a Christian evangelism organisation.
The sentiment here is that to not comply, particularly with the tracing app, is to demonstrate a lack of love for neighbour.
I have no intention of downloading this app. But that has nothing to do with my level of compassion or concerns about privacy.
My issue is with why the church is doing Caesar’s dirty work. My concern is that the churches’ statement seems like an example of false compassion and I am struggling to find a way to argue against it.
How can my family and I think through this in a way that maintains a biblical worldview?
What does biblical compassion look like in this situation?
Your brother,
David
David, it seems to me you have already thought through it, and see the problem. The challenge lies in what to say when the Christians around you say that in your lack of cooperation you are not loving your neighbor. I would reply that it is not loving your neighbor to hold him down while a government official inserts a tracking chip under his skin.
Nice to know this was all a waste of time.
BJ
BJ, don’t forget the money. A waste of time and money.
RE Masking the Masquerade – I agree with your position on masks. What is the proper response when your church leaders are telling members they have to wear masks? I’m struggling with the proper response. Appreciate your thoughts.
Mark
Mark, I would tell them that the Surgeon General cautions us about wearing masks, and Romans 13.
You recently wrote about the messaging of mask-wearing and advised against it when possible. I fully agree with your entire piece on the matter. You aren’t the only one to note it is a political statement, as this Newsmax piece attests. And of course, the DC crowd was way out in front on this. Anyway, expect the issue to get more heated.
David
David, yes. More heated and more complicated.
RE: Masking the Masquerade, Way to go Janice McGeachin, Lt. Governor of Idaho!
On a side note, our church NEVER stopped meeting. We had hand sanitizer set out, we set the chairs up so that socialist distancing was in order, and our weekly potluck became an each family bring your sack lunch. After the first week of meeting, nasty articles appeared in the local online “paper” and our Pastor was visited by the local assistant chief of police. A “passerby” supposedly reported our illicit meeting. At first the officer was brusque and did not want to see the measures we had taken when offered. Our Pastor also gave an explanation of why we did and would continue to meet. We had a day of prayer and fasting and asking the Lord for favor with the civil magistrate. That Sunday morning, as Pastor was setting up, the Police Chief, Assistant Police Chief and an officer from the Sheriff’s department visited our church. They said that we were complying with the spirit of the law and that they had OUR BACKS and would be driving by to make sure that we met unmolested! Praise God. We did indeed find favor with the civil magistrate! Praise the Lord for small towns and counties in Idaho.
Linda
Linda, yes. Thank the Lord.
Digging Up Bones
This is in relation to an old post of yours, Personal Grace and Calling the Cops. My relationship with my husband began when I was under the age of consent, and he was over it. We did not have sex before we married or engage in any activity involving genitalia. However, we did have some physical contact that he could have gotten in legal trouble for if it had been reported. We have been married for several years now. He is a good husband and father. He has apologized to me for these past sins. My question is, are we biblically required to confess to the authorities at this point? Am I required to report what happened, or is he required to confess? Obviously we would rather not because of the possible devastating consequences for our family. However, I want to be obedient to God in this. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Anonymous
Anonymous, there are occasions where it would be necessary to bust yourself, but it does not seem that this is one of them. As my father likes to say, God takes you from where you are, not from where you should have been. At the same time, from this distance there may be variables I wouldn’t know about (e.g. were you the last in a long series of girls, etc.). That would change things. But from what you have described, no, I don’t think so.
Irregular or Illicit?
I was wondering about your thoughts on the legitimacy and illegitimacy of women elders and ministers etc. I am aware that you think that Scripture does not permit this. Nevertheless, some churches have them and not only those of the liberal variety. My question is how do you see the situation as it does exist in those churches? Are the women not qualified yet elders. Or are they not qualified and are therefore fake, so to speak?
A policeman could be not fulfilling the expectations of his badge (e.g. taking a bribe), yet a speeding ticket from him is valid. Or a man could be dressing up as a cop and handing out tickets all of which have no validity. The first is not qualified yet has a valid badge; the second is not qualified and has an invalid badge.
Joel
Joel, great question, and I believe a lot more work needs to be done on this. In place of your speeding ticket example, a good question is this. Would we receive a baptism that had been administered by a woman minister? This is not the answer, but it begins to sketch the outlines of one. I believe that a woman in the office of minister does not actually hold that office, and our session of elders would have to appoint a study committee to figure out what to do.
I don’t know what the underlying numbers are, but the text of the Israeli article is false at many points. It bothers me that some people want to believe it automatically because it agrees with their narrative when so many details appear wrong right off the top. It claims that in all those countries the outbreak was the same with, ” the number of infected peaking in the sixth week and rapidly subsiding by the eighth week.” Wait, so the number of infected rapidly subsided in the 8th week? Just two weeks after the peak? Really? It looks like something… Read more »
I just looked him up and found that Yitzhak ben Israel is actually a retired Air Force general with no experience in infectious disease. He made his claims a month ago and they’ve already proven to be wildly inaccurate: “This is how it is all over the world…..there is an increase until the fourth to sixth week, and immediately thereafter, moderation until during the eighth week, it disappears.” Last week was week 11 for Sweden and it has been “peaking” for seven straight weeks. It has still not disappeared there but in fact continues to be a serious issue. The… Read more »
Jonathan, you raise some valid objections to some of the claims made here on covid-19. Despite your arguments I will explain why I still believe governments should have chosen a different course. I work in management for critical infrastructure. There is a large element of security vulnerability in the group I manage. In my field there are new threats daily. I must balance the demands of security against budget and operations all the time. People who work in the security part of my field are good at identifying threats, predicting the outcomes of threats, and recommending mitigation techniques. They are… Read more »
Despite your arguments I will explain why I still believe governments should have chosen a different course. I think in many cases the strict route was the appropriate route. I also think that many governments could have chosen a different course, and even seen a lot more variety on a smaller level state-to-state. It is important to note that “the experts” didn’t necessarily call for a strict lockdown to the degree seen in every situation – in many papers I saw calls for entirely less extreme measures. Every situation really is different. Unfortunately, I think the largest factors stopping such… Read more »
I remember you mentioned in an earlier post a few weeks ago about why the number of deaths that were not being attributed to covid-19 have jumped so high. I think you were suggesting the covid-19 fatality count was far less than reported. I have since read there are many more people dying from pre-existing medical conditions now than before the lock down. This is a result of fear keeping people from risking being exposed to covid at medical facilities and so called elective medical procedures being stopped by government mandates. The issue with your hypothesis is that 1st-world nations… Read more »
The economic fall out on all of this will likely cost more lives than covid-19 could have killed if all the world’s government’s did nothing, The UN recently released a report predicting 100-200 million children will likely die from the effects of poverty from the economic fallout. Can you link that report? That number seems surprisingly large. Secondly, I do think the issue varies dramatically depending on the country. As I pointed out above, lockdowns do not appear to increase mortality in Europe. And recent US history suggest that there is no relation between economic downturns and any increased mortality… Read more »
Here is a link to the report. https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/policy_brief_on_covid_impact_on_children_16_april_2020.pdf
I was high on the number. The report predicts 100-200 thousand children dying from the economic fall out from the lock downs and predicts many millions falling into extreme poverty. This report contradicts most of your statements about booming economies mean higher mortality rates.
Yes, 100 thousand is quite a bit lower than 100 million! Remember that was I was telling you was country specific, in that case to the USA and other developed economies. Here is a study linking boom economies in developed countries to higher death rates: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/16/a-downside-to-an-up-economy-mortality-rates-increase-in-better-times/ And it bears pointing out again that the economic and health impacts are not only due to lockdown, but at least in part would be in place due to the epidemic regardless of whether or not there was lockdown and may well be worse in an unmitigated epidemic. Otherwise I agree across the board… Read more »
Is that supposed to refer to something other than the obvious example being discussed? Why not discuss that obvious example, or, if you want to discuss something else, why not actually bring it up?
Do you suppose he’s talking about Wilson’s disciples? After all, he’s received 3 upvotes!
Pastor Wilson, on March 31, in the context of dismissing the importance of experts, you said, “Just the other night, Dr. Fauci said that we were still looking at 100K to 200K deaths in the US. What precisely would it take to discredit an expert?”
It appears that, contrary to your expectations, Dr. Fauci accurately predicted the scope of the epidemic. Do you now acknowledge that Dr. Fauci’s appraisal lends him credit, not discredit? It suggests there is a place for taking experts seriously on matters outside of our own realm.
“It appears that, contrary to your expectations, Dr. Fauci accurately predicted the scope of the epidemic.” Jonathan Jonathan, Dr Fauci missed his initial and midterm estimates by exponentials. His latest estimate could be made by anyone on home arrest — even though they didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Dr Fauci’s original estimates were based on a model produced by an individual who apparently hasn’t produced an accurate model during his entire 20 year professional effort. Dr Fauci is not out of the woods at all. Additionally, there are huge numbers of deaths attributed to SARS Cov-2 that aren’t… Read more »
Dave, to address quickly: 1. Your claims that Dr. Fauci, “missed his initial and midterm estimates by exponentials” appear false. I can find no such statement by Fauci at all, in fact he specifically criticized such assumptions: Fauci said the 100,000-to-200,000 death figure is a middle-of-the-road estimate, much lower than worse-case-scenario predictions. He said preparing for 1 million to 2 million Americans to die from the coronavirus is “almost certainly off the chart,” adding: “Now it’s not impossible, but very, very unlikely.”“Whenever the models come in, they give a worst-case scenario and a best-case scenario,” Fauci told CNN’s Jake Tapper.… Read more »
“You probably owe him an apology.” Jonathan Jonathan, Dr Fouci owes me an apology and also apologies to those who committed suicide because of his false predictions, those middle and lower working class people whose livelihoods he helped to destroy, those whose needed medical procedures were deemed not essential, and a host of other Americans. Jonathan, obviously you missed the memo instructing physicians to mark deaths as SARS CoV-2 when someone kicks off if they even had a hint of the pestilence. Your debunking articles were debunked by real reporters checking facts. Just as the deaths in Pennsylvania were reduced… Read more »
Dave, I gave you linked proof that Dr. Fauci made the correct prediction and never said the thing you claimed he did. If you have any evidence at all of him making that false prediction, please share it.
We’ve been around this block several times before when you made up other claims about people that turned out to be based on urban legends rather than actual quotes. You can’t keep accusing people falsely without evidence.
“You can’t keep accusing people falsely without evidence.” Jonathan Jonathan, you need to stop accusing others of lying when they point out facts that don’t support your claims or attempts to discredit others. I point out facts not urban legends. March 13th/March 15th, Dr Fauci predicted 21 million hospitalizations and worst case 1.7 million dead on national TV. There are other times he used the high figure, but you can look them up. That is not legend, but fact. Jonathan, where are the 1.7 million dead from this don’t go to work, or you will die disease? Where are the… Read more »
Wrong, he did not predict that, he explicitly said on March 15th, the date you claim, that that was a “worst-case scenario” and “unlikely”.
It wasn’t his “low estimate”, it was the FIRST number that he gave as his best estimate, and even then he advised caution because he said projections are difficult.
How can you blame someone for something not coming to pass when they explicitly say that it was unlikely to come to pass?
Jonathan, the prediction was up to 1.7 million dead as a worst case. Most of us, except TV pundits, newspaper reporters and politicians, understand worst case is worst case. Most of us understand that a bottom figure is the bottom, not the expected, and the expected figure should be in the middle somewhere. “Senior White House adviser Anthony Fauci said Thursday the death toll from the coronavirus could be closer to 60,000 Americans, assuming full social distancing, rather than the previously projected 100,000 to 240,000 deaths.” USA Today April 10th Hmmmmm? So, worst case is 1.7 million dead with a… Read more »
The 60,000 isn’t at all an accurate figure Dave, that was passed weeks ago. 100,000-200,000 appears to be correct, as was predicted back in March when we were at just 2,000 deaths.
And the 1.7 million number was the worst-case scenario IF nothing was even done in response to the virus. Again, when someone says that a number is “unlikely” and “the worst case scenario never happens”, then that is not a prediction. It is literally a worst-case scenario.
“The 60,000 isn’t at all an accurate figure Dave, that was passed weeks ago.” Jonathan Yes, Jonathan, 60,000 dead is not correct. Again, Dr Fauci did not accurately predict the scope of the pandemic. In March the figures were 200,00 – 1.7 million dead. In April Dr Fauci hugely revised his number to only 60,000 dead. In May, he revised it to 200,000 dead again. What will it be next month? Yes Sir! That is bet your life on it, deadly accurate predicting by our top scientist. The point is that Dr Fauci’s predictions are not accurate and he changes… Read more »
Dave: “That is padding the numbers, just as Pennsylvania is doing, just as New York and other states are doing.”
Funny you should mention New York and padding the numbers…
Andrew Cuomo did his level best to drive up those numbers when he ordered elderly persons infected with the coronavirus back into their nursing homes. At least 5,300 of them died as a result.
Heckuva job, Andy. Perhaps we should start calling this the Cuomovirus.
“Perhaps we should start calling this the Cuomovirus.” FP
FP, thanks for making Friday evening so much fun. Those were extremely humorous comments
Dave: “That is padding the numbers, just as Pennsylvania is doing…”
Given that the top health official in Pennsylvania is a mentally ill man who likes to wear dresses, we can be sure that’s not all he’s padding.
You once again make a long series of false statements without evidence.
I’ll end at the beginning. In March Dr. Fauci predicted 100,000-200,000 deaths based on the current measures. That is the exact prediction Pastor Wilson criticized him for. It appears to be the first public prediction he made of the death toll, as opposed to an “unlikely” “worst-case scenario” based on “if we do nothing” that “always overshoots”.
You claimed, “Dr Fauci missed his initial and midterm estimates by exponentials”, yet you haven’t quoted a single statement of him doing so.
“You once again make a long series of false statements without evidence.” Jonathan Jonathan, you are the king of the internet and a simple search for Fauci 60,000 dead results in: “The final toll currently “looks more like 60,000 than the 100,000 to 200,000″ that U.S. officials previously estimated, Fauci said.” NPR April 9th Now, the final toll doesn’t look like 60,000 does it? Dr Fauci revised again to the higher number, again. If you note, that quote shows 100,000 dead now on the bottom and 200,000 on the top. Oops. If you look at Colorado padding deaths, the Durango… Read more »
And in your attempt to “Flood the zone” as Steve Bannon would say, you continue to ignore that the topic of conversation is Dr. Fauci accurately predicting back in March that there would be 100,000-200,000 deaths with the current response in place, and Pastor Wilson suggesting in response that he shouldn’t be listened to and proof that experts didn’t know what they were talking about.
The overall mortality in coronavirus hotspots kills your narrative that these coronavirus deaths are just misattributed.
In NYC alone, the daily number of dead bodies was nearly 4x than the normal death toll that time of year. How could anyone fake that? In March/April alone the additional deaths were over 4000 higher than the # of deaths attributed to COVID, suggesting that COVID deaths are being overcounted, not undercounted.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html
Now, here is the standard that upset you so much: “Ideally, testing for COVID–19 should be conducted, but it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate without this confirmation if the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty.” You’re upset that they’re labeling deaths as COVID-19 deaths when they have a “reasonable degree of certainty” even if a DNA test wasn’t available? You do realize that’s how they’ve always categorized deaths from disease? DNA-based tests are relatively recent and are never universally used, when you hear what the flu death toll was last year you do… Read more »
Jonathan, You continue to slay your opponents here in the land of Mablog. I don’t know why they keep trying to prove you wrong. They just embarrass themselves. I will grant them however, as one who began his medical career in Pennsylvania, that if corruption could be anywhere, PA is where you would find it. I saw it even at high levels of academic medicine. Have never seen any of that graft since moving to the West.
DC – this place is more like the land of Blab and Moblab. A place were the elect get to exhibit their special secret knowledge.
William, I really haven’t appreciated your frequent insults of the blog and various commenters even in “support” of my position. They don’t illuminate anyone.
I do appreciate, though, that the unlikes give a baseline minimum of how many people are still reading the conversation.
Doug,
By “in the office of minister” do you mean strictly in the office of a pastor, or when you say “minister” do you include ruling elders? Deacons?
If you do include all elders, and deacons, what about women ordained to those offices? Are they not really – or they are, but shouldn’t have been?
Hoping you will read this and answer, and/or that someone else will. I’m genuinely interested to know what other Christians think about it.
“our session of elders would have to appoint a study committee to figure out what to do”
Interesting question.
Is she, apart from the disobedience of taking the mantle of elder, orthodox?
Would you recognize a Roman Catholic baptism?
Would you recognize an Independent Christian Church Baptism? For those not familiar, they believe in adult baptismal regeneration.
Would you recognize a Mormon baptism?
As a Catholic, I find that an interesting problem. I think most churches agree that baptism is a sacrament but don’t necessarily agree on its purpose or on the mechanism for the outpouring of sacramental grace. Catholics believe its primary purpose is to remove the stain of original sin and that its validity depends on its being performed correctly, but not on the identity of the baptizer. That’s why converts coming from other Trinitarian churches are not re-baptized, and why despairing Catholic grandparents have been known to baptize their fallen-away adult children’s babies when no one is looking. I think… Read more »
Small clarification: some churches do not agree that baptism is a sacrament because they do not believe there are such things a sacraments at all. But that doesn’t really affect your point.
That’s interesting, a downvote for a factual comment.
lol, welcome to the party.
People here don’t just dislike factual statements, in recent weeks I’ve received multiple downvotes even for comments that were just pure, in-context Scripture quotations.
Yet up above, jsm received 9 upvotes for a comment in which virtually every statement of fact pertaining to the situation was wrong, including missing the mortality rate by a factor of 1000x.
Typically what I see is factual statements, mixed in with debatable analysis and opinion, being downvoted. I don’t think I’ve seen before where a simple factual statement about something that isn’t in question for anyone who is remotely familiar with the topic, is downvoted. There is no competing body of thought that asserts that Baptists who do not believe in sacraments, actually believe in sacraments.
Jane, I think the takeaway here is, downvotes are not to be taken seriously.
Good point, JohnM.
I made a comment that gave the American death rate per million and said that other several countries were 4x higher. I got downvoted. Just listing the rules and guidelines that Sweden publicly set out for their coronavirus response got me downvoted by multiple people. I didn’t say whether the rules were good or bad, whether their strategy was right or wrong, I just wrote them out and included the current statistics they’re reporting and said for me personally it was too early to judge them one way or the other. And I got multiple downvotes for that comment. Also… Read more »
Pissst, J’. Where I am, the weather right now is “nice”. That is a factual statement. It’s also a bit subjective at the same time. Finally it does not mean that the weather everywhere is “nice”. Do you see the principle at work here? As to your allegation that people here don’t like “factual statements”, I expect it is more the case that people don’t like gnat straining. In general, I don’t talk a lot about the virus, because the facts are not all in. I think everyone is having difficulty processing an illness that can have no apparent effect… Read more »
I stopped reading the Israeli article after the Sweden comment. At the point it was clear the writer either didn’t know what he was talking about or that everything else was just a political agenda. Or more likely, both.
Yes, the Sweden claim was laughably wrong, and then the actual numbers in the predictions were very, very far off as well. It’s a month-old article that has been widely discredited by reality since it was published. That’s why it bothers me a lot that it was simply posted by Pastor Wilson as if it were true, when we already can see that it’s not.
Did lizziejank get censored from instagram? N.m. I see she changed her account name.
To all who highlighted the weaknesses of the article I posted. Thank you.
I am still inclined to consider this lockdown an overreaction, but I want my opinions to be based in fact.
Thanks BJ, I appreciate that response a lot.
You are setting a good example. Wish some of your compadres would follow suit.
BJ and I come to this blog with some of the most different starting places of anyone here, yet we end up agreeing more regularly than most because he doesn’t base his position on which “side” it’s on alone.
I disagree with you on most things BJ, but I really appreciate that you work not to let partisanship get in the way of dialogue.
There is an ethnic group in Southern Mexico called the Tzeltal. They’re modern Mayans. One of the early Wycliffe translators was a woman named Marianna Slocum. She translated the New Testament into two dialects of Tzeltal. For a long time, she was the only Christian in the area, and even after a few converts has been made, she was the de facto leader. Once there was a certain number of men who were converted who seriously started learning Scripture, they started taking leadership roles. She quietly stepped away. Deborah wanted to do this. There are other examples.
An answer to Joel’s question.
Robert,
That was a good example of how things might rightly proceed in similar situations.
Since I haven’t gotten any responses on my question, above, how do you see it?
Where women have already been ordained as pastors, or elders, or deacons, (and aren’t about to step aside for qualified men) would you regard them as *actually* pastors, elders, or deacons, or as not really those things at all? Never should have been, or in reality never could have been?
I have my thoughts, which may or may not agree with someone else’s, but I’m not posing a trick question.
Hello John, I’ll share a recent tangential example and then give my answer to your question. I recently (before COVID) went to a funeral at a Lutheran Church. I know there are denominational differences within their church ranging conservative to liberal, but I don’t know who’s who. Big reader of Luther and his biographies around the 500th anniversary, so I ASSUMED I knew what I was going to see. Well, with kids in tow – we walked into a full house, with a lot of vibrant colors. Then we were greeted by a female pastor, who I was pleasantly surprised… Read more »
Let me guess – ELCA?
If *all* the person knows and all they have to say is “I was baptized as an infant” – at *any* church back home -, then yes, you really should be asking for more details. Or explaining them.
Yep, I looked it up after I replied. It’s a curious conversation, one I’ve heard more than once. I was ‘saved’ pentecostal, but now I’m reformed. I was baptized Catholic, then Church of Christ, then Non-Denom. I was Episcopalian, then Mormon, then Calvary Chapel, then Assemblies of God, then RCA. Now what? God’s grace is sufficient…and though He calls us to untangle our past in repentance and restitution, vetting out someone’s baptism seems beneath Him. (And no, I don’t think Mormon’s are Christians :) ). But back to the woman baptizer question…if that had been the case for me back… Read more »
That is a sticky wicket considering that the Justice of the Peace can perform marriages.
But now I’m confusing my covenants and my sacraments…I’ll revisit all the great Ask Doug sessions!
He may well have been wise and worthy of respect, but if we believe marriage was instituted by God, like we always say we do, then we should believe a marriage is blessed by God, period. In a church and by a priest or pastor has nothing to do with the marriage being blessed. If for any reason it is a marriage that God would not bless, church and clergy provide no remedy.
Okay, leave out the “any reason” if you like, though I’m not sure what it is about that that gives you pause.
If I remember correctly, I believe Catholics have told me that technically their theology doesn’t even consider the priest to be the essential party of the marriage covenant, it is the husband and wife themselves who proclaim the sacrament before God and the priest is merely officiating their proclamation, thus even for Catholics the priest is actually irrelevant to the legitimacy of the marriage.
My Catholic theology has lots of gaps though so I could be misrepresenting that, but I was told something to that effect.
DCL,
You should take your schtick on the road! You’d be a hoot. I can tell from your photo that you already know that.
See! What did I tell you? You have gift.
When I look at ‘bill’s “photo” I see that he is circular and checkered!
😏
The women who are not about to step aside for qualified men are not women like Deborah. They are in sin. The rest is irrelevant.
In order to properly abide by Romans 13, I propose that the CrossPolitic guys or Pastor Wilson interview Edwin Vieira as he has articulated the solution in part five of this “article” https://tinyurl.com/y8tqr24x
Um…please can we quickly dismantle the Administrative State?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJoxrLNCqTU
This Chicago mayor wants to use it, but will administer church discipline if not done in compliance with the executive branch.
Ron, Mayor Lightfoot is only recommending noncompliant slaves wear cement shoes to cross the Chicago river.
If people would regard the pledge she proposes as they do their current oath…we might get on the right path.
Dear Pastor Wilson,
Concerning the question asked by Anonymous above, would your answer change if the ages of the girl and guy were, respectively, 14 and 20/21 and all other variables remained the same?