An Epistolary November Moment

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Staying Calm, Cool, and Collected

Re: “On Aspen the Lost Dog and Other Imponderables”

Pastor Wilson, your restraint is admirable. When the “other side” has a grievance far less valid or documented than your family’s, they never seem to hesitate to whistle up a protest, dox the target of their ire, and test the flammability of public edifices. Since you have not promoted any of these responses, how could anyone call your essay “extreme?”

This is a call for equal application of law and justice, and that’s all. You have my support and prayers.

EM

EM, thanks much.

An illustration of DNA at work. I am glad that science has gotten down to this level so that we can really see what a chance operation this whole thing is. Special creation? Give me a break. This is nothing but a chaotic jumble of random occurrances.

I continue to be amazed, yet not surprised, at the unjust prosecution and deviant behavior of your local prosecutors. I say not surprised because my family also was exposed to the seedy underbelly of what happens to middle-class folks who run afoul of some minor indiscretion. You’ll just have to take my word for it that our teenage son committed a minor indiscretion that EVERYONE in the local community does INCLUDING the incredulous lawyer who agreed to take the case. Not only did the police act inappropriately, so did the prosecutor. It was eventually dismissed but not before we had spent THOUSANDS in defense.

I still support our LEO’s . . . but our family has been permanently jaded by the experience. I shudder to think what would happen to a young man of color without the means to a defense and how they would be marked for life. Or perhaps they only went after us because we had the means for defense in the first place.

Either way, I’m no longer under the illusion we have a fair and equitable justice system.

Jeff

Jeff, we are no longer under that illusion either.

“I am not going to say too much more about this dog’s breakfast at present . . .” So . . . how “white” was the dog’s breakfast? ; – )

And what a woke breakfast as well!

(Seems like a prosecuting attorney withholding exculpatory evidence would be obstruction of justice? A statute I know for a fact, to be under enforced!)

A Dad

A Dad, yes, so it would seem.

Just became aware of, and started reading, your blog recently. I am greatly enjoying it and learning much, not just from the topics you cover, but from mulling over your thought process and approach to the things you cover. It is very similar to my own, although I think you are much more intelligent and well-educated than I am, so I am learning many things about how to articulate and defend things that I already thought were true. Just wanted to say thank you for the time you take on this. My question is unrelated. I was wondering where I might pick up a couple of “Soviet Moscow” stickers for my collection. I looked in your “store” and didn’t see them, but perhaps I missed them. My daughter just moved back to WA here from Moscow. I had asked her to pick me up a couple, but she never got around to it before she moved. Are they available outside of your local area there?

Thanks!

Michael

Michael, yes they are. You can get them here, and the proceeds go toward the legal defense fund.

Wow. We just wanted to let you know that our prayers for this whole Stickergate situation have echoed Psalm 140:9b . . .”let the mischief of their lips overwhelm them!” Seems as though a whole honey-wagon has just been dumped. We will continue to pray for righteousness to prevail (along with justice) and for God’s glory to be revealed to EVERYONE involved.

We are smiling, and waving at you with our whole hands.

Sharon

Sharon, thanks very much for the prayers.

I’ve been watching the World Series and living in Georgia, being a Braves fan, I get a great thrill out of watching a Braves batter hit one over the fence. But in the first of a No Quarter November article about the nonsense going on about Stickergate, you have hit one over the fence, out of the park and onto the street. Keep the pressure on. I love it.

Tony

Tony, thanks.

MMF MMF MM FTTSS SS RGOD

Dear Pastor Wilson,

Indeed on reformation Sunday yesterday, my church sang “A mighty Fortress is Our God” from behind masks, while a handful of us sang along, removed to the parking lot, basking in the warm October sun, full throated and loud. A relief to you I’m sure with the stoning hanging over your head and all.

Sincerely,

Preston

Preston, what did it sound like when they got to “and though this world with devils filled . . .”?

Some Resistance

Here is a link to a podcast, up here in Canada, which delves into the scriptural teaching of the lesser magistrate. I think your readers would benefit greatly from listening to it, just as we benefit immensely from having your words/podcast and sermons available to us.

Blair

Blair, thanks. Keep on.

Good day I thank God for the wonderful work you are doing! We are really encouraged here in South Africa by your blog, app, teaching etc.

As I am thinking through the current government tyranny and the so-called inalienable rights/freedoms, I was wondering if you could please point me to a source which proofs the inalienable rights from Scripture?

Kind regards


Joseph

Joseph, as you begin your study, I would start by considering what Scripture intends by the phrase “the image of God.” And I would read The Emergence of Liberty in the Modern World by Douglas Kelly, Slaying Leviathan by Glenn Sunshine, and Justifying Revolution by Gary Steward.

More White Babies

You said that you expected the white babies line to get a rise, but were surprised at how big a rise it got. I submit to you that this is a bigger and more serious problem than you thought. It’s a balled up, screwed up, twisted up, tangled up knot. And what is this knot? It’s our society’s ethics of ethnicity. Our hatred of paternity is cancerous, and at this point it seems to have gone metastatic. It’s reached the point where we can’t even laugh at the absurdity of disliking white people for being white. We also can’t follow the logic that connects disliking white people to disliking white babies. What do babies have to do with people? With communities? With societies? It’s time for someone, in imitation of Vince Lombardi, to hold up an infant, and say “gentlemen, this is baby.”

I wrote you some time ago to point out that mainstream society, in the form of a Target ad, was openly encouraging me to express racial preference (in favor of non-whites) in my shopping habits. There is a zero percent chance of maintaining the old consensus on race and ethnicity being meaningless without the constant mainstream social pressure. Ethnicity will be treated as significant, and this is going to produce a lot of problems we haven’t had recently.

One of those problems is going to be white Christians hating their white Christianity. And another problem is going to be white Christians loving their white Christianity, if you see what I mean. We are not equipped to deal with this. And God help us.

Nathan

Nathan, you have touched the thing with a needle.

Studying Law?

In light of the mission and educational approach of St. Andrews College, are there any law schools in the US (offering traditional degrees) that you might particularly recommend to a believer who wanted a distinctly Christian and Bible-based approach to the study of law?

Caleb

Caleb, the best thing I can do at this juncture is recommend a “retooling” program that New St. Andrews is in the process of starting. It should be soon (months, not years), so stay tuned.

The Prescient Lewis

One of the things I love is seeing is C.S. Lewis’ prescience applied to our modern day problems. I just recently finished reading That Hideous Strength again and I was floored by the parallels to our current situation, right down to the torture of animals in the name of science.

As a fellow—and much more intelligent—admirer of Lewis, I would love to read an article to that effect.

Tyler

Tyler, I do some of that in this new book, The Light From Behind the Sun.

Reading Your Bibles

“Well-written, fair minded letters may be interacted with in featured posts.” I was not born with the gift of writing well, and I crumble at public speaking. But I do have a fair mind, I believe . . .

So here goes.

The reason I’m reaching out is because I’d like to share something with you. I’ve spent the last year with an insatiable desire to help people read their Bible. So in the evenings for the past several months, I’ve worked on software that analyzed thousands of biblical sources to create a modern-day topical Bible resource. I turned this software into a topical Bible website.

I would love to hear your honest thoughts. You can find my website at: HelpfulScripture.com.

In Christ,

Matt

Matt, thanks. To the Word.

Obeying Tradition

In your series of letters on homosexual desire, you mention obeying, among other things, Scripture and the Western Tradition by becoming a man. Could you please elaborate as it relates to the Western Tradition?

I’m having a hard time grasping what is going on in the modern West with its self-hatred and narcoleptic wokeness. Would you say the divide between East and West is as big as the whole crowd makes it out to be? For instance, that “Western colonialism” is to blame for world woes on nearly all levels, and things of that sort. The reason I ask is, that, it seems to me that the divide is not really between East and West, but between Heathen and Biblical. Would you say this is a fair summation? And if so, do you think there could possibly be any connection to the layout of the Tabernacle and Temple—that God’s presence resides in the Westernmost end? Perhaps this is a stretch, but it does come to mind.

One confusing bit for me as well is, that, such a stark divide between East and West seems to be, as far as I can tell from personal interactions, to be a modern Western thing itself. Just like how you’ve said before that wokeness is a white thing, could East-West be a western thing that’s been exported?

To distill a coherent question: in your letter on homosexual desire, what do you mean by the Western Tradition; is it an essentially Biblical heritage in the way you mean to use it; and how can I become more familiar with this our heritage?

Thank you kindly,


Jake

Jake, good questions. Apart from Christ, all cultures are heathenish and dwell in darkness. In the providence of God, as it spread the gospel largely went north and west. This means that the gospel impact on Western nations has been going for centuries longer than it has in the East—although it is at work there now also. The thing I was referring to as regards sexuality had to do with things like monogamy, a work ethic, romantic devotion to a single woman, a warrior ethos tempered with grace, and so on.

Greetings Back

I’m the long-haired fellow you spoke briefly to on Sunday from Illinois. I was a rank sinner for many years but I was saved by our Lord on Jan 6, 2019, and baptized 7 weeks later into new life. Our faithful Lord has revealed so much to me since re-birth and has chosen to bless me richly. One of His sweetest blessings was to bring me safely to Moscow to hear your message. I attend a more contemporary church back home and it was refreshing to worship with your congregation. You all filled nearly every moment with praise and worship. Well done. Our God was glorified! Your message filled me with joy and strength and I want you to know I will never forget my time at Christ Church. I hope we will meet again but until then I will be praying for you and your team and learning what I can from you and others like you to reform and strengthen the church of Jesus Christ our Lord. God bless you and all your people.

Thane

Thane, thanks for writing, and many blessings.

More on Moore and Stone

Re: 7 Reasons Mike Stone Ought Not Sue Russell Moore. Don’t your arguments presuppose that Russel Moore is a believer? If Russell Moore is a pagan then the suit is a believer attempting to get justice in the same way that Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid being beaten. Regards.

Rolen

Rolan, the problem is this. This supposition gives every disputant an automatic reason to ignore Paul. “Surely a real Cristian wouldn’t have conducted himself that way.” If you think somebody is an unbeliever, there are better ways to indicate that other than by making him the head of one of the most influential commissions in the largest evangelical denomination in North America.

Regarding “7 Reasons Mike Stone Ought Not Sue Russell Moore” I’ve been blessed by your writings going back to the 90’s when I was a young man worshiping at Dr. Sproul’s church in Florida.

Question; how can there be justice for the injured, slandered, defamed, etc Christian, in instances such as what may have occurred with this current SBC controversy when the Protestant church or catholic (small “c”) church remains so divided governmentally by denominational and non-denominational barriers?

In simple terms; if a Christian can seriously sin against another Christian, and merely slip out the back door and leave to a “different” church, perhaps even a “conservative” one, there is then no justice for the injured party thanks to modern day church hopping, no?

I’m still every bit as Reformed as I was as a teenager 25 years ago, but perhaps in part due to having read nearly every Martyn Lloyd Jones sermon I could get my hands on for the past couple decades, I’m ever more convinced the Protestant church is seriously erring by not declaring a worldwide council and prayerfully duking it out until the Holy Spirit brings us all back into ‘governmental’ (i.e. church governmental) fellowship.

As a church layman, I’ve been encouraged by many a sermon with the exhortation of the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:3, but please pray tell where are the leaders of the denominations (of thoroughly orthodox Christian denominations) obeying Paul’s exhortation to do all to preserve the unity of the brethren?

I appreciate conferences as much as the next person, and have been humbled to have been asked to speak at many throughout the course of my life.

Yet with all due respect, having Baptist John MacArthur and Presbyterian Sproul speaking at the same lectern over the course of a weekend, or yourself and Piper talking publicly for a few hours on stage is clearly NOT the fullness of Paul’s exhortation in practice, since I believing in padeo-baptism and paedo-communion would likely not be given church membership and may even be refused the Lord’s Table if I were to visit either Piper or MacArthur’s churches (this is not a knock against either of them, since I appreciate their commitment to God) .

Finally, wouldn’t the catholic (small “c”) church having a worldwide council and organizing into one governmental fellowship fit into your eschatological framework?

Kenneth

Kenneth, you are right. That is the eschatological goal toward which we are progressing. We grow up into the unity of the faith, and that is still future. We also work hard to preserve the unity of the faith that we have been given in the present. We have to be careful not to develop an over-realized eschatology when it comes to church unity. In the meantime, you are right. It would be better to be defrauded than to take it before unbelievers.

I’m curious how you would respond to this hypothetical line of reasoning from the Stone side,

1) Moore by his actions (or inactions even with regard to the alleged abuses) has proved himself an unbeliever

2) Stone, being a qualified elder has the biblical authority to make that judgment (Matt 16, keys to the kingdom)

3) Therefore, the prohibition of 1 Cor 6 does not apply

Basically taking a similar approach to divorce and 1 Cor 7:15. Thanks


Bob

Bob, if the dispute broke out in Stone’s church, where he was the pastor, and if Moore was a member there, the elders should take it up. But in such a case, Stone should recuse himself from the vote.

Good morning Doug,

I enjoyed your blog post, “7 Reasons Mike Stone Ought Not Sue Russell Moore.”

This was very well-written and timely. I’m submitting this letter to the editor as an alum of Al Mohler’s seminary and a confessional Baptist in the vein of Founders (Tom Ascol). From where I sit in Eastern Washington (Spokane to be exact), the SBC is up to its neck in excrement of its own making.

Sadly, Mike Stone’s lawsuit is not the first high profile SBC fiasco to go in this morally wrongheaded direction in 2021. Your blog post brought to mind this bugaboo:

First, McLean Bible Church (David Platt is the lead elder/pastor) in the Northern Virginia area had something occur within the body that led one faction to file a lawsuit. Here are two links—here and here— to review at your leisure:

There’s one more observation that I’ll send your way. Perhaps this is merely the musings of a fellow brother. in Christ noticing things up in the bleachers. From my perspective, the way Ed Litton became the president of the SBC over both Mike Stone and Al Mohler has eerie parallels to how our national election went down with resident Biden. There was controversy over the vote and over how the process went down.

Besides Russell Moore, Ed Stetzer was another vocal advocate of Ed Litton within the SBC. Stetzer is the Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton in addition to. being the current Dean of Wheaton’s School of Mission, Ministry and Leadership. Stetzer is also a current member of the executive committee for the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE).

Finally, Stetzer’s colleague at Wheaton, his boss Philip Ryken, who’s Wheaton’s President and a member of the PCA, also sits on the board of directors for the NAE. The executive committee appears to be one layer above the board of directors—source.

Why are the above details interesting?

In that (in)famous Time Magazine article back in January of this year, the author noted that one of the Big Eva organizations that partnered with the AFL-CIO and others “to fortify the election” was none other than the NAE. Is this just a coincidence? Is Steve Bannon right when he says there are no conspiracies and there are no coincidences? If I’m not mistaken, the character V in V for Vendetta says something similar about coincidences.

Anyway, just thought I’d give you some more intel as someone who swam in SBC circles while getting his M.Div at Southern and now is a member of a Harbor Network church.

I appreciate your willingness to speak and publish unpopular perspectives.

Sincerely,

Matthew

Matthew, thank you.

Military Service

I am a young Christian man thinking about joining the US military. What advice do you have regarding this decision? Thanks

Hunter

Hunter, serving in the military is an honorable option, but it is challenging for a consistent Christian in the best of times. Now that the military is going woke, it would be really challenging. You would have to wake up every morning fully prepared to wreck your career. Of course, the same thing is true in the corporate world, but in the military you have fewer tools at your disposal.

Entertainment Standards

Thanks for your blog. I have enjoyed it over the past year or so, and I’m hoping you can either shed light on this question or direct me to a post of yours, or another book or source, that can answer this question. I’ve been having conversations lately with a few people about discretion in entertainment. As of right now, I divide the question into two parts—assessing the value or worth of the film/book/TV show, and then assessing the questionable content. My question relates more to the second part—where should one draw the line in terms of ‘skippable’ material? And how does the skippable material overall affect whether one should even turn on the movie at all? Should the presence of a good number of scenes to skip mean that I shouldn’t turn on the film at all? So I guess I’m wondering whether the accumulated filth makes something not worthwhile, even if you genuinely intend to skip the worst moments. And what if that film is otherwise a great film?

And then more importantly, where should we draw the line? What makes something skippable? My contention is that we shouldn’t view others’ unclothed bodies except in a spousal relationship (excluding same-gendered encounters such as changing rooms, of course). But I don’t have a solid biblical argument for that. And I also want to say that we shouldn’t view sex on screen, but again, I’m wondering if that is more of a gut reaction than a thoughtful biblical position, because sadly I can’t think of anything compelling—especially because some people will say, “what if I don’t lust while viewing this body/sex scene?”

So I’m really looking for a robust biblical view of entertainment. What makes unclothed bodies, or sexual encounters, things that need to be hidden or protected from outside observers? And what about non-explicit sex scenes? And is there a difference between a sex scene between two married people vs adulterous?

Thanks!

N

N, thanks. This is a topic that actually requires a book. I am in favor of services like VidAngel because it helps to fight back against an industry that is actively seeking to catechize us in the religion of their immorality. The main thing is that I believe that we should be fighting and resisting that. They really want us to participate on their terms, and so I don’t want to. That said, the issue is not whether a viewer lusts or not. The issue is whether the producer, director, and actors are seeking to get them to.

Non-Christian Classical?

Appropos of nothing recent: Do you have thoughts on non-Christian classical school model? Would that be a hard no?

Nathan

Nathan, hard no on such a school as a place to send your kids. But I am grateful (for example) for the rise of classical charter schools because they are helping to take out the great enemy, the regular government schools. I am no fan of Stalin but I like the fact that he and Hitler are fighting.

Discipline

Do you have any thoughts regarding the trend of positive discipline? Must a parent spank in order to discipline biblically? Is it okay if parents never spank their children?

Ken

Ken, not usually. Most kids need to be spanked more often than they are. But discipline is corrective, not punitive. That means that if you have a really tender child who receives correction without needing a spanking to reinforce the point, there is no need to lay it on out of principle.

Future Justification?

What are your thoughts on John Piper’s view of works and final justification? Quite a few folks have criticized him, usually mentioning his forward to Thomas Schreiner’s book on the topic and his article on the DG blog, “Are we really saved by faith alone”. At the very least is he unclear or careless with his wording?

John

John, quite frankly, I am not current enough on that controversy to say anything really. And so I won’t.

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jsm
jsm
3 years ago

On the issue of entertainment I noticed Jeff Meyers claims to like Game of Thrones on his Facebook page. No christian should be watching that filth and how shameful a minister of the gospel publicly proclaims his love for such filth. If his presbytery wasn’t full of sodomite sympathizers perhaps he would be held to account.

Last edited 3 years ago by jsm
Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago
Reply to  jsm

In order to bring Meyers to account, you would first have to enumerate a more specific charge. Its very easy to simply call a given show “filth”, its significantly more difficult to create a coherent set of rules for what shows are acceptable. Very typically, the desire to condemn others for their television habits comes with equal measure in a complete and total laziness in making a useful criticism. At face value someone might say something like, “There’s nudity in it!” Well yes, but there’s nudity in a great deal of art that is not considered pornographic. “But Game of… Read more »

jsm
jsm
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

It is easy to publicly denounce this filth as filth. In movies, unlike other genres of art, you have to convince people to engage in adultery in front of the camera to get those sex scenes. This is obviously sin to support a show that in order to be made they had to pay people to commit adultery. There is a reason you shouldn’t portray even certain parts of scripture in movies. If you are putting up paintings in your home where the artist got people to pose nude this too would be sin. Portraying sexual acts in visual art… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago
Reply to  jsm

“ In movies, unlike other genres of art, you have to convince people to engage in adultery in front of the camera to get those sex scenes.” You are aware that the actors didn’t actually HAVE sex in the filming of Game of Thrones right? They do not show sex itself on the show. They show topless people making faces at each other. You could certainly argue that paying the actors to be semi-nude together is sinful, but that has logical ramifications I don’t think you’ve considered. “There is a reason you shouldn’t portray even certain parts of scripture in movies.”… Read more »

JSM
JSM
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Adultery involves more that intercourse. What sins are forbidden in the 7th commandment? The sins forbidden in the Seventh Commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required1, are, adultery, fornication2, rape, incest3, sodomy, and all unnatural lusts4; all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections5; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto6; wanton looks7, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel8; prohibiting of lawful9, and dispensing with unlawful marriages10; allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them11; entangling vows of single life12, undue delay of marriage13; having more wives or husbands than one at the same time14; unjust divorce15, or… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago
Reply to  JSM

“The sins forbidden in the Seventh Commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required1, are, adultery, fornication2, rape, incest3, sodomy, and all unnatural lusts4; all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections5; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto6; wanton looks7, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel8; prohibiting of lawful9, and dispensing with unlawful marriages10; allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them11; entangling vows of single life12, undue delay of marriage13; having more wives or husbands than one at the same time14; unjust divorce15, or desertion16; idleness, gluttony, drunkenness17, unchaste company18; lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays19;… Read more »

jsm
jsm
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

If you need specific charges here is one. Jeff Meyers is guilty of breaking the 7th commandment and failing to be above reproach in shepherding the church. This should be easy to prove given Pastor Meyers has made ordination vows in adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Read what the WCF has to say about the 7th commandment.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

There has been a great deal of discomfort with nudity in art throughout Christendom. And there has been a near universal denouncement of lasciviousness, of which simulated sex scenes are certainly a species. You may not know that even at the height of the Renaissance nudity in art in the most liberal places in Italy was controversial. David was given a shroud and it was placed and removed many times. The council of Trent ruled that lascivious art had no place in churches and many of Michaelangelo’s paintings were (lightly) painted over to hide genitals. The reformers were generally much… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Until I was housebound with my daughter last year, I didn’t watch much TV other than true crime documentaries and BBC reruns. Watching old Hercule Poirot episodes didn’t exactly prepare me for the explicit depiction of sexual acts in series like Outlander and Bridgerton–and those two didn’t even make the list for Cosmopolitan’s “Netflix sex scenes, films, and adult movies that are as hot as porn.” If they’re “as hot as porn,” is there a meaningful difference other than a better story line, a more talented cast, and a much bigger budget ? Does knowing that the sex is simulated… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I think the “sex recession” likely has a complex etiology. But I would put porn, and by extention the general pornification of culture right up there at the top of the list. Netflix is trying to keep up competing on pure bottom denominator superstimuli with pornography and the results are depressingly predictable (with a side order of fashionable sexual confusion thrown in).

I would vote for the return of the Hayes code in a second, even though that makes me “pro-censureship.”

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

The Hays Code was written by Daniel Lord, a Jesuit writer who enjoyed the informal title of “Hollywood’s Priest.” It’s been said that the adoption of the Hays Code resulted in “a Jewish owned business selling Catholic theology to Protestant America”. I think the ban on obscenity produced some of our wittiest films as writers were inspired to new heights of verbal finesse to work around it. And I think audiences got the point without explicit statements. The writers in Casablanca were told they couldn’t say that Rick and Ilsa’s time together in Paris had included an affair–but is there… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I agree that the Hays code isn’t really workable today (and it wasnt perfect) – I’m just being nostalgic. I think we have been catechised by Hollywood (as a synecdoche) much more than by the church, and it really shows. And just removing the most explicit sex and most gratuitous violence doesn’t fix that. The other day I was thinking about how much time I spent watching Seinfeld as a kid, and how corrupting that shows view of casual sexual relationships is. And most people would consider it pretty family friendly.

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I so deeply, passionately despise the morality of Seinfeld and think it is one of the worst “family sitcoms” of that era to show young kids, and most people I talk to don’t seem to realize why.

Somehow Simpsons got much more hate from the overwrought conservative morality police types, when Simpsons was probably one of the most morally upright shows on television.

Last edited 3 years ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“I don’t know how, or under what circumstances, the four of you found each other, but your callous indifference and utter disregard for everything that is good and decent has rocked the very foundation upon which our society is built.” -Judge Art Vandelay in the Seinfeld final episode.

Oh! We really weren’t supposed to find all that nihilism funny?

Last edited 3 years ago by Jill Smith
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,

I completely agree. It is due to a very shallow understanding of “content.” There are a lot of Christians who would be outraged by a character saying G-D but are fine with a revenge plot where the main characteristics a hero because he sadisticly tortures the “bad guy.”

The Simpsons has a real moral vision (though it’s far from perfect!). Seinfeld is hedonic nihlism.

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

In the Simpsons, it’s noted as good when people do good things for others and bad when people do bad things to others. Even when the main characters do something wrong, you’re always clear that it’s wrong. Simple but rare. On the other hand, I used to love Tom Clancy novels as a kid despite some suspect content (heck, in my younger years I enjoyed that suspect content). Over time as his writing became more political the quality of the books degraded and the “moral quality” became absolutely outlandish. In his later books he includes “Hero tortures the bad guy… Read more »

Jane
Jane
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’m finding it odd that Seinfeld was ever considered family-friendly fare. I thought it was supposed to be sophisticated (in the rather euphemistic sense of sophisticated) adult comedy. I’m too old and my kids were too young for there to have been a question of either of us watching it as children (assuming it wasn’t fare for seven-year-olds, as my oldest was seven when it went off the air), but had it been on even in my teenage years my parents certainly would not have allowed it and I would not have wanted my kids watching it in reruns as… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jane

When I was a kid in the 90s it was pretty common for parents to figure if it’s on TV its OK. I was semi-latchkey and Seinfeld reruns were on in the early evening (I don’t recall the time), maybe 4:30, and I thought they were hilarious as a preteen. There is quite a bit of physical and obvious situational comedy. There are sight gags in every episode (Michael Richards sliding into the room, Elaine’s dancing) that anyone can enjoy, and Seinfeld in general has a great “everyday” type of comedy (I really like his standup) that is easy for… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  Jane

I would have been 9 when Seinfeld first came on and definitely saw it from the beginning. I’m sure some kids in my class weren’t watching it, but they would have been in the minority. I mean, we were already watching stuff like “Cheers” and “Night Court” which had all sorts of adult themes but there were millions of kids watching that stuff who hadn’t hit puberty yet.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

It occurred to me that Scott Alexander should have included “Seinfeld devotee” in his list of Blue Tribe’s defining characteristics. In the circles I moved at the time, not liking Seinfeld was akin to confessing that you can’t watch Fellini without falling asleep. Or that you prefer your pizza without arugula on it. Or that, deep down, you’e really shallow.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

In my day it was more like not fall asleep watching Bergman, and not commit suicide after watching Aronofsky!

Seinfeld may have been more of a tribal thing in Jewish circles?

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Partly, even though only one of the four main characters was unambiguously Jewish. Seinfeld’s presentation of what it means to be Jewish is very relatable to a lot of millennial Jews and half-Jews (and their gentile friends)–Jews are people who like lox & bagels, live in LA or NYC, and dine at Chinese restaurants on Christmas day. Because they didn’t get much religious education or connection to an authentic Jewish community, their experience of Judaism is purely cultural. When Jews are among themselves or people they trust, there is a lot of self-mockery about Jewish stereotypes. They laugh at themselves… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

It take a certain amount of cultural self-confidence and feeling of security to take that semi-self-deprecating act on the road. I can see why some older Jewish people would be uncomfortable. But it also seems like it has been a part of the Jewish comedian shtick for a long time. Groucho Marx famously said the Marx brothers were “just four Jews trying to get a laugh.”

Speaking of the Marx Brothers, it definitely shows my hypocrisy that I’m a huge Marx Brothers fan, especially of Duck Soup, despite the fact that they were pushing the envelope on transgressive sexual stuff.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’m not inherently opposed to that view. I just don’t think the person I was talking to was ready to handle the full implications of that view.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

You are assuming a lot about JSM. I think his reference if the WLC was spot on. You are probably right that he isn’t completely consistent, his reference to murder, etc. not requiring the actors to sin is telling that he is only considering this from one (admitted important) angle, but I find it troubling that so many Christians are quick to defend their obsession with popular culture. We have to look at the ecosystem this stuff is being produced within. TV is becoming more lascivious and debauched intentionally and, IMO, Christians should not partake. https://screencrush.com/game-of-thrones-nudity/ In many ways rhe… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago

Jeff, thank you for including that note. Justice is manifestly unjust when it is determined in large part by your bank account. And, as you note, there is a segment of society that has spent their entire history in this nation plagued both by insufficient bank accounts to attain justice and being consistently targeted by the police and “justice” system. That needs to change or many of our current problems will never resolve.

Last edited 3 years ago by Jonathan
Kathleen Zielinski
Kathleen Zielinski
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, trial lawyer here. Justice has *always* been largely determined by your bank account; this is nothing new. But there’s an important point that needs to be made here. Doug and his family are white, and this is probably their first negative encounter with law enforcement. I assume Jeff is as well, though his letter didn’t say. And their negative encounters have merely been expensive pains in the neck; nobody got killed over it. Now, try to imagine what it is like to be a racial minority in this country, in which any encounter with law enforcement can get you… Read more »

Will
Will
3 years ago

One could only hope that Wilson’s experience with the blunt end of the law would soften his heart towards those who deal with it every day. If his past performance is any indication, I’m not to getting my hopes up.

Dave
Dave
3 years ago

Kathleen, you don’t have to be a minority to get shot or threatened by cops in America. My wife and I were illegally stopped by an Oregon State Police officer. He wanted to search our truck as Oregon was having a look for drug trafficking day and made up several excuses in his attempt. When I asked him to give the citations for his excuses, he didn’t have a clue as in “I don’t know.” Instead he returned to his car and then gave me some Oregon codes that did not pertain to us at all. The entire time, even… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, I agree with you. While the Black population (and to some degree the Native American population), especially in certain areas, bear the brunt of the worst of American policing, there are certainly far too many people shot by police of all races.

Dave
Dave
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, thank you for your comment. The bit about racism here and last week is not just a matter of skin color. There is much more that goes into the equation.

While it is quiet, exactly which ox or oxen of yours did Wilson gore?

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago

“in which any encounter with law enforcement can get you shot” The odds of getting shot as an unarmed black suspect are lower than their odds of getting struck by lightning, or winning the lottery. You endanger lives by repeating this lie. I’ve run the math myself. If you encounter a police officer in the United States entirely at random, you have a 0.017% chance that they fall within the margins of those who shoot unarmed black people. That’s not to say that you have a 0.017% of getting shot, merely that you have a 0.017% chance of the officer… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Justin, in a country where the 2nd Amendment is a real thing, why should any armed Black person have to fear being killed in a random interaction with the police? Last week we already covered the ambiguity in the “unarmed” claims. In the last year that I saw complete data for, 143 Black persons with a gun on them were killed by police, including the ones who were merely carrying a gun in a legal manner and not committing a crime of any sort when they were killed. In addition, 123 Black persons who were not carrying a gun were… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Numbers, numbers. They tell part of a story. What gets left out?

I don’t doubt there are people who get beaten, tased, even shot, by the police unjustly. In your estimation is it possible for anyone ever, whether armed or not, to be beaten, tased or shot justly?

To paraphrase Justin, If you tell people the police are going to kill them, you bear some responsibility for the self-fulfilling prophecy you see played out.

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Your last sentence is a meaningless objection, without more support it’s equivalent to “don’t report on bad things or they’re your fault”.

If you prefer a story fuller than numbers, here are 50 brief accounts just from 2014/2015. These are quite incomplete – even an incident where the cop was sentenced to 25 years for murder was left out, not to mention the 100s of incidents where there were no witnesses.

https://totrustingod.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-systematic-violence-of-broken-system.html

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Speaking of calling attention to issues… In 2018, 117,626 black babies were killed by their own mothers in the United States. This is the CDC’s number. “That would seem to be far too many to me.” Indeed. Last I checked, 117,626 > 1,000. By the way, all 117,626 babies are innocent. The 1,000 or so blacks shot by police mostly aren’t. Romans 13:4? Never heard of it! How many comments do you think Jonathan would feel worth it to call attention to the issue? Priorities. To borrow from the “trial lawyer” — who, curiously, shows up in a Google search… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago

FP, other than virtue signaling, what do you hope for me to accomplish by “calling attention to abortion” on a message board that is already almost entirely anti-abortion and quite fully decided on the issue?

I speak out against abortion with youths, in Sunday School and in my own life, where it can actually make a difference.

Cherrera
Cherrera
3 years ago

No, the Floyd riots weren’t “understandable”–they were simply a time to unleash a huge fury of vandalism, black-on-white violence, burning and looting…all in the name of justice while fake Christians refused to condemn it and instead put BLM crap on the social media accounts. Read your Bible and you’ll find a wholesale condemnation of the looting, violence and lawlessness. The usual suspects around here took a long break during that time–the same ones who were outraged if a Trump supporter so much as shoved someone. And all that silly pouting about systemic, mythical harassment while things like this happen all… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I think that’s a bit unfair. If my last name were not as common as Smith, I doubt I would use it on a public board. There being 2,095 Jill Smiths in the US, I can post with a reasonable degree of anonymity–just like almost everyone else who comments here. The fact that she doesn’t use the name under which she practices law is hardly surprising.

On the other hand, there is indeed a lawyer named Kathleen Zielinski to be found on the internet. But that one practices in New South Wales.

Last edited 3 years ago by Jill Smith
Cherrera
Cherrera
3 years ago

One other thing–if what you said was true and there weren’t ridiculous double-standards, Tony Timpa would be a household name. Both he and Ashley Babbitt would have statues in cities all over the U.S…and even Afghanistan before the Taliban finally did something right and defaced the Fentanyl Saint idol. Their families would win $27 million lawsuits, too. But of course none of that fit the narrative so it didn’t happen.
BLM Kicked Out of Kabul: Taliban to Cover George Floyd Mural (westernjournal.com)

Jonathan
Jonathan
3 years ago

Out of curiosity (you’re not going to get judgment from me), on what grounds did they arrest you many times? And is it something that happens commonly in your community or do you feel that you in particular were singled out?

I do believe that poor white persons are treated terribly by our justice system in many places.

Will
Will
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The real irony is that in Moscow, Wilson and his followers are the minority. Can you imagine what it would be like for them if they were black or brown and trying to enforce their personal view of Christianity upon the citizenry?

Dave
Dave
3 years ago
Reply to  Will

Gentle readers, Will imposes his racist thoughts on Christ Church parishioners. Not all who worship there are lily white skinned Christians.

Once again, rumors and gossip spread false narratives.

Will
Will
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Point missed. No surprise.

Dave
Dave
3 years ago
Reply to  Will

Gentle Readers, Will is a gossiper and does not want to admit it.

Will
Will
3 years ago
Reply to  Dave

There you go, spreading gossip.

Dave
Dave
3 years ago
Reply to  Will

Gentle Readers, Will forgets that he posts innuendo, encourages others to believe lies and promotes obvious false blogs.

No, Will is the classic gossiper and as such denies the fact that he is a purveyor of falsehood.

Corrina Phillips
Corrina Phillips
3 years ago

Your NQN video was really incredibly lame I guess that’s what happens when you are forced to rush things. Do you mind telling people what happened to the original one? Did it get burned up in the fire that burned your building down to the ground? How’s Elijah Froh doing? He got airlifted with 3rd degree burns , right? Are you sure you aren’t supressing any evidence Doug on the real NQN video footage? That’s probably way more entertaining than you sitting on a burning boat.

Will
Will
3 years ago

Give him a break. He probably doesn’t remember the accident.

Corrina Phillips
Corrina Phillips
3 years ago
Reply to  Will

As he claims to be non -insendiary his tribe chants all over Twitter “give us flames, give us fire, blow something up! So what does he do? He lights a liquor bottle and throws it into a boat which proceeds to burst into flames. What was his point again??

agb
agb
3 years ago

I wonder if you’ve ever considered minding your own knitting, rather than intruding on the lives of people you hate?

Jane
Jane
3 years ago

Oops. Fact checking before repeating something is such a bore.

Mark H.
Mark H.
3 years ago
Ken B
Ken B
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark H.

As an Englishman born and bred, I can say from experience not to trust what you read in the British press – nothing new there – but especially if the subject is religion. The Guardian is still often a reasonable quality left of centre newspaper (unlike the right-wing tabloids), but the usual British cynicism and willingness to believe the worst were on display when religious topics or people are involved. The BBC is like it too. The secular assumption in the UK is that pastors/ministers are in it to enrich themselves (hence the mention of tithing and who gets salaries),… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
3 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

No, the Guardian is trash and publishes drivel like that article daily. And opposing forced vaccines is beyond reasonable unless you’re a virtue-signaling, modern-day Pharisee. But maybe you can trade in your baptismal certificate for a vax passport? I can’t think of a better way to way to represent this hip new faith. 6uild 6ack 6etter!!

Ken B
Ken B
3 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I have in my time stopped reading both the Telegraph (right-wing spin) and the Guardian (left-wing ethos). When it comes to reporting on current affairs in the UK, such as the economic fall out of Brexit, the Guardian is still doing a pretty good job. Some right-wing papers are carrying on Goebbels’ legacy. There is no compulsory vaccination in either the UK or Germany. That is a clear distinction with the States. There are increasing restrictions on the non-vaccinated in Germany, as they are now driving the fourth wave of the pandemic. 90 to 95% of intensive care covid patients… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
3 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

I appreciate The Guardian for its prose style and its coverage of the arts. And their coverage of Prince Charles’ dottier moments can make me laugh out loud. As for the rest (both yours and ours),I think this is pretty funny: The Times is read by the people who run the country. The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country. The Guardian is read by the people who think they ought to run the country. The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country. The Independent is read by people who… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
3 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

There’s many a true word spoken in jest!

I’m not sure the Sun still has page 3 girls – I have almost never read it. It’s more of a comic than an newspaper. A study once showed its vocabulary was equal to that of an intelligent 9 year old!

It’s also no coincidence that the Daily Mail is nicknamed the Daily Heil or the Daily Wail. It’s where right-wingers go to have their prejudices confirmed on a daily basis!

JohnM
JohnM
3 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

Spin vs. ethos – I think that aptly describes a distinction I’ve noted, but couldn’t quite figure out how to explain. Conservatives can’t see the difference between CNN and CBS News, liberals can’t see the similarity.

Vincent Galilei
Vincent Galilei
3 years ago

Very interesting article today talking about the greed, corruption, racism, and theological tyranny by Douglas Wilson. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/02/christ-church-idaho-theocracy-us-america

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
3 years ago

lol. Lot of hilariously ignorant and inaccurate statements, but I think this is my favorite.

But insiders who spoke on condition of anonymity said that all members tithe 10% of their household income, and wealthier members are expected to make an even larger contribution.”

WHAT!?

A church requires people to tithe 10%?! Clearly this has never happened before!

David Douglas
David Douglas
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I was a member of Christ Church years ago before moving away for unrelated reasons. The biblical doctrine of tithing is taught. I heard nothing new that I had not been taught elsewhere. There is no enforcement and no checking (that I am aware of). Like the generosity laws in the old testament, there is no warrant to enforce these commands, so adherance is redounds to the individual. If anything the tithing teaching may have been lighter than elsewhere, in that DW has discussed excessive taxation as an entity which can be considered something on the loss side of the… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
3 years ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I don’t think I would attend a church that had compulsory tithing. I’m not under the law of Moses under which tithes had to be paid, the law is obsolete. No more priesthood, sacrifice, tithe or sabbath – unless I choose to make a day special. In Christ and under grace is sufficient!

Regular giving is fine in proportion to income, but I cannot square tithing with Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

agb
agb
3 years ago
Reply to  Ken B

Other than the part where Christ Church doesn’t have compulsory tithing, that’s great.

Ken B
Ken B
3 years ago
Reply to  agb

I didn’t particularly have Christ Church in mind, was thinking more generally. I think believers have liberty both in how much and where they give, and 10% is fine as rule of thumb if that is what they choose, and treating some days as special. One day off a week is good for you. It is the imposition of tithing and sabbaths that I object to. When this is done by putting believers back under the law this is doubly worse. I wonder if this is why some Calvinists, who in theory espouse grace, are actually so legalistic. I’ve had… Read more »

Zeph
3 years ago

Christ Church started in the seventies, not the nineties.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
3 years ago
Reply to  Zeph

Zeph, I don’t think that is right. I don’t think they had the big split where they left the e-free and went reformed and renamed it christ church until around 90. There was a pretty big discontinuity there. Also, to someone else’s question about tithing, Doug is pretty moderate. He says he tithes some before and some after taxes and that it is fine to not tithe on money taxed. And he doesn’t hold that the whole title needs to go to your own church. So he really isn’t in the tithe maximizing business. I agree with Ken that the… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
3 years ago

I love it when ultra left-wing religious nut jobs come here and hyperventilate about one church in a small corner of one state.

Meanwhile, actual greed, corruption, racism, and theological tyranny (the cult of the Holy Mask and Most Holy Vaccine) oozing from the bowels of F. Joe Biden — you know, you know, the thing supposedly in charge of all 57 states — continue unabated.

A dad
A dad
3 years ago

Despite unsupported claims to the contrary, this comment, like the others above, is un-censored and un-moderated. (?)