A Bracing Exhortation
“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”
Jesus got called a drunkard and a glutton, and you only got called ” idiosyncratic”. (?)
C’mon man! Get to work!
Jason
Look, Jason, I have a limited budget . . .
Pineapple on Pizza?
The headless chickens of Christianity have, at least for as long as I’ve been alive, shared the same glaring weakness, that blinks and flashes when struck like the end boss of a video game. They are completely and totally incapable of conceptualizing a world in which there is no comfortable and “reasonable” answer to the problem in front of them. You can, and in your case I’m sure do, watch this in real time with homosexuality. “God wouldn’t put people in the world who naturally want to do something wrong. That would be so unfair! So it must not be wrong!” He is not a tame lion. My favorite book in fiction is The Silver Chair, and a great deal of that love boils down to a single line. When confronted with a crazed man in a chair threatening to kill them, he utters the name of Aslan and they realize that they have been instructed to set him free. But what if he kills us? He might, but that doesn’t free us from the responsibility of following the signs.
If you presuppose that all of God’s instructions will be comfortable, then you are already incapable of following them. Galli and Dreher may not have completely lost the thread yet, but a sin left without repentance only grows, until eventually you’re David French, having denied the truth being given a lie that he accepts.
I know I sound dramatic, but its very frustrating that “leaders” have missed the plot by so far. The premise of being a Christian by definition includes that at any given time, most people on the earth want to destroy you. You are a reminder of the thing that they are trying to pretend doesn’t exist. Every day, every, single, day, they are working to if not crush you outright, to erase any trace of your effect on the world. Believing this intellectually is simple. Acting like it is very hard, as who wants to live their daily life like they’re in (spiritual) warfare? But we won’t have a ghost of a chance in any war, spiritual, cultural, or otherwise, if the Church decides not to fight it because that sounds like it might be hard.
I suppose these letters are usually supposed to have a question aren’t they . . . Doug, does pineapple go on pizza?
Justin
Justin, I will say this much. Pineapple on pizza is either a courageous application of a Kuyperian insistence that all things be brought under the Lordship of Christ, or it is a sign of the desperate times in which we live.
A Cry for Help
I am Isaac. I am a broken man. I need your help. I struggle with anger every day and I am not entirely sure why. I yell at my family at small things. My wife and I have a very rocky relationship. I know my anger is the problem but I honestly don’t know where to start or what to do. God bless.
Isaac
Isaac, there is hope for you. You need pastoral guidance, help, and accountability, and it needs to be a church that is suffused with the grace of the gospel. If you have that kind of church, go to the pastor, lay out your sin, and ask the elders to ride your case—in a way that is suffused with grace. If you don’t have a church like that, then find one that is located in a place where you can provide, and move there.
Two Voices That Chide
My name is Amy . . . mom of seven children ages 18-2, all of whom I have homeschooled since birth. We became Reformed in 2002 and attended a PCA church for nearly 15 years. I am a treacherous daily sinner in thought, word and deed. God has put on my heart to write to you from this posture, not as someone better or more holy than you. I am no “she-ologian” so I will not be addressing the finer points of which you seem to find sport in arguing.
Since you are a professing believer in Jesus Christ, I am simply asking you to publicly repent. I pray the Holy Spirit will use His very Word of Truth to convict you of your sin and need for repentance.
Isaiah 3:11 Woe to the wicked! It shall be ill with him, For the reward of his hands shall be given him.
Isaiah 5:8 Woe to those who join house to house; They add field to field, Till there is no placeWhere they may dwell alone in the midst of the land!
Isaiah 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, That they may follow intoxicating drink; Who continue until night, till wine inflames them!
Isaiah 5:18-19 Woe to those who draw iniquity with cords of vanity, And sin as if with a cart rope; That say, “Let Him make speed and hasten His work, That we may see it; And let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, That we may know it.”
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, And prudent in their own sight!
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine, Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink,
Isaiah 5:23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away justice from the righteous man!
Isaiah 29:15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the LORD, And their works are in the dark; They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?”
Jeremiah 23:1 “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” says the LORD.
Micah 2:1-2 Woe to those who devise iniquity, And work out evil on their beds! At morning light they practice it, Because it is in the power of their hand. They covet fields and take them by violence, Also houses, and seize them. So they oppress a man and his house, A man and his inheritance.
Luke 10:13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.”
Doug, the LORD knows every wicked thought in your mind. The LORD knows every sinful word born in your heart and spoken with your lips. The LORD knows every evil deed you have done and are doing both behind closed doors and in the public arena. You are a public figure and you need to thoroughly repent of your wickedness both to Him as well as publicly through your various public outlets.
May the LORD give you thorough repentance and have mercy on your soul,
Amy
Amy, if your heart really is as treacherous as you claim, then why on earth would you think you were fit to write a letter like this? Because the Lord laid it on your (treacherous) heart?
Some observations:
—sob sisters…
—men should not sleep with unstable women . . .
—victim advocate biting your ear…
We know you’re against empathy, which is obviously not like Jesus at all, who empathized with sinners and came to Earth to save them. This is why you refer to ANYone (male or female) pointing out brash talk or unfeeling comments as a “sob sister”.
I would like to point out that Jesus would never call anyone a “sob sister.” You know, he did his fair share of weeping in the throes of empathy himself. Maybe they should be retitled by you as “godly sisters.” This was actually very telling in how a person might expect to be treated when confronting you with a problem that is hurting them.
You would like to make a provocative statement that men should not sleep with unstable women? Also, telling is you point out these unstable human beings as women . . . I would think women shouldn’t sleep with unstable men either, and obviously no one but their own husbands, but that little flip wasn’t in your head, I don’t think. Truly, from the heart, the mouth speaks. Women are unstable. I mean, before you try to defend yourself by saying you were only addressing one side of the coin, did the other side of the coin enter your head at all when writing?
As someone who knows your direction, content, and was a CREC member myself I can accurately say this is how you think of women in general—more unstable, weak, and easily deceived than men. Even more manipulative! Cuz, Eve. Lord, have mercy. This is why women who report abuse are not readily received or believed by you or CREC leadership.
Women are taught this about themselves from twisted Scripture and it creates self-doubt and learned helplessness in them. Sounds godly, huh? Accordingly, when they learn to depend on you or their husbands for everything, they are then declared to be walking in “godly femininity” and receive applause for it, as it were.
Then you have these sad women who can’t understand why they are so sinful to be unhappy walking out in godly femininity . . . Maybe they need to go to their husbands in their weakness and have them talk to them one more time about this being the right thing . . . After all, their husbands’ opinion is the end-all in CREC families.
Also, there’s your own daughter, Rachel, who says submission being hard is a sign you’re doing it right because obedience isn’t supposed to be easy.
Yikes.
Does this sound sour? Like abuse is rampant in a place like this? Like a female victim may not get the support she needs when she needs it?
Also, sexual abuse is no big surprise to me in the CREC—even though it is so small. I’ve heard tons of disgusting stories. When you denominationally think the woman is made for the MAN, to support HIS life, to be a sexual vessel for HIM, this is what you’re gonna see: narcissistic abuse. Vile, sick, disgusting abuse of God’s daughters.
Nobody should be sexually abused in the church and then on top of it be unsupported in it. These were sheep in your pasture that were abused and sometimes left the True Shepherd of their souls because their representation of him in you was abusive, Doug.
You, in my opinion, are not equipped to identify abusers and their victims. Or minister to them, either.
Next , victim advocate biting your ear . . . You speak of victim advocacy as a bad thing. Like a victim advocate was an annoying and abusive person. This is, BTW, how you treated the author of the VICE article. Your passive aggressive comments didn’t escape me. You attempted to demerit her work AND person because you didn’t like what she reported.
Should a Christian behave this way to anyone? Let alone another member of the household of God? Sarah, to my knowledge, is a professing Christian.
You’re character is very evident to me. You are unwilling to see sin in yourself. And, attack all of those who would ask you to confront it. You want what you want and you think it’s going well.
Well, it’s not. Obviously. Women and children are being abused. Do you call them sob sisters? Unstable women? Abuse advocates biting your ear?
A million people aren’t calling foul for no reason at all. Women aren’t safe with you. Nor are men, really. You push women down and hype-up men to do the same. And, I think, most everyone there is wondering why it really isn’t working in their soul. Better ramp it up a few more notches . . . And, that’s where you find the CREC now.
Godly men don’t lord it over anyone, let alone enjoy it, or build brands based off of it.
And, BTW, ain’t no one going to carry on the future of evangelicalism but Jesus Christ. So, don’t worry about that!
Please, Doug, spend some quiet time with the Lord and consider. Not your own considerations. Let the Holy Spirit speak.
I’m praying that. You’ve caused a lot of hurt and you have a responsibility to make it right. Amen.
Cassie
Hi, Cassie. I am publishing this letter because it provides fine examples of how the doctrine of so-called empathy inverts things. I say that some women are unstable, and so you then turn that into a claim that I say that women generally are unstable. You are not interested in finding out the truth of any given situation, but rather want to be on the “right” side of that dispute, and the “right” side is dictated by our victim culture industry. And yes, I know there are real victims out there—because I have helped a lot of them. But these real victims are characterized by the victim culture industry not wanting to have anything to do with them, because they don’t fit the narrative. And, by the way, when you selected my daughter Rachel as an example of the downtrodden women of the CREC, you could scarcely have done anything funnier.
Thanks for all you do it is not often you find somebody who stands up for what they believe without compromising. Keep up the good work
Henry
Henry, thanks very much.
Word Choice?
I am wrong often and badly, so I will not presume to say that I think you meant “boojums” rather than “hoojums.” I will instead ask what you meant by hoojums in this context?
Bernard
Bernard, no, I meant hoojums, which is a word I made just for that sentence. And if called upon to define it, as I guess I have been, I would say that hoojums would be hooey in its doctrinal and codified form.
Reading Oneself
I noticed in your reading list that you read and re-read books that you’ve written. I feel myself inclined to read what I’ve written but always assumed it was pride and a “how many people liked that” curiosity. Is it merely to remind yourself of what you once knew? Is there something more?
Raeley
Raeley, thanks, and reasonable question. There are a handful of reasons I reread my own stuff, and keeping track of what I have said and where is one of them. But the main reason is that I have a tag on this blog called Chrestomathy, and I post quotations from my books under that tag. As I go along, I dump those quotations in a master file that will perhaps one day be a book.
RC and EO?
“A joyful heart doeth good like a medicine.” So thank you for that. But please help me to understand. I grew up in an Evangelical Baptist Church in the ’50’s and ’60’s. At no time whatsoever would anyone have mistaken a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox church as being ‘Evangelical’. What changed?
Melody
Melody, that impression arose, I think, because Galli was a lifelong evangelical who has since become a Roman Catholic.
The Best Option
I’m wondering how you would advise someone in a church that is in stage 1 of the disease, but it is the best option they have for a gospel-believing, Bible teaching church. Especially, how you would advise wives and mothers in this situation.
I would love to ask Mrs Wilson but I am not sure how to reach her. I am wanting to be faithful and courageous, but I’m not exactly sure what that would look like day to day.
Sandy
Sandy, I would stay with the best option as long as it is the best option. But I would encourage you all to raise faithful questions as problems become visible, and not wait until they become egregious.
Women Preaching
This is one of those questions where growing up in the church I think I should be able to draw the line with a definition and I cannot. Women are not to be pastors, women are not to preach, women are not to have authority over men. I’m okay with that. But what does it mean to preach? What’s the difference between preaching and lecturing? Am I in danger of preaching when writing out how the Bible has applied to specific moments in my life and post it on the internet? Is it deciphering the text publicly that women are not to do? Or is it all about the audience, the day, the location, the intention? Thank you for being willing to tackle all sorts of questions and for working to apply Christ to all of life. Being able to fill my mind with culturally relevant applied theology and the like has given new life to my homemaking because there’s now plenty of real meat for my brain to munch on while doing menial tasks.
R
R, in the church, I believe the biblical prohibition applies to both preaching and teaching. But if a woman is speaking to women at a conference, and the sound guy in the back learns something, that is not a problem at all. Women are not to teach or have authority over men, and a good part of this has to do with what the intended audience is. My wife and daughters write for women, but if a husband picks up one of their books and learns something from it, that doesn’t give me the fantods because he was not part of the intended audience. He was just being a good husband and checking on what his wife was learning.
Music and Stuff
I am encouraged by the work your church has done in promoting quality hymnody and psalm singings. My church embraces the tradition of worshiping a cappella, but it feels more like routine, and less like a critical piece of our liturgy (to me at least).
It seems like youth involvement in music is declining year over year, at least in my area, so fewer people are interested in or able to sing in parts. I believe a good amount of this declining interest is that we have taken our a cappella tradition for granted for too long, and we have not communicated the importance of corporate worship or Paul’s encouragement in Col. 3:16. I also feel like some of this lack of interest is simply that people don’t know what they are missing. As others have said, “the heart cannot love what the mind does not know.”
My question is what role the church should play in improving the musical literacy of the congregation, especially the youth. Should they mainly learn by doing, i.e. sitting next to Mom and Dad and learning to sing the hymns and parts by rote, or is formal musical training preferable? Do those lessons come from the family (via piano, guitar, voice lessons), school, or from the church directly? I was encouraged by your “Singing in Parts” article from 2011—I am in full agreement that it improves our worship, testifies of our unity and harmony within the body, and sounds really good. How can we keep what we have and make it better in the future?
Tim
Tim, I believe that the church should have a role in teaching young people musical literacy. Christ Church sponsored a singing school for kids for a number of years, which has since been picked up by the NSA conservatory, with the church contributing the requisite funds to it. We are helping to ensure that all our kids are equipped to worship God in this way.
Two Contrasting Voices on Maricopa
Vanilla Maricopa Pudding on a Bed of Cole Slaw”
I want to comment on why I, personally, am not “gobsmacked that the whole country isn’t gobsmacked.” It primarily has to do with the fact that the overwhelming majority of our citizens have very little understanding of how elections works. I started working in elections a year ago (not in AZ). As such, I am able to see the vast disparity between what I know now and what I knew before, as well as the vast disparity between what I know now and what most Americans know.
In light of the widespread ignorance about how elections work, people on both the left and the right and everywhere in between are highly vulnerable to misinformation. You yourself demonstrate this in your article when you say that the Cyber Ninjas audit report included a claim that the election should not have been certified. Their audit report made no such claim, and such a claim would not have been in their purview anyway. The claim came from a fake report that was put into cyber circulation by Stop the Steal, disinformation artists; it was discredited by Doug Logan, and Joe Oltmann ultimately fessed up to being the one who created it.
This is the climate we find ourselves in, where seemingly no one is prepared to be persuaded by any amount of data, where even very intelligent people have trouble discerning actual data from fake data, and where even in cases where data is plainly available, very few people know what to make of it.
So when the Maricopa Board of Election Supervisors say that election data is archived after each election, what basis does anyone have for evaluating the plausibility of such a statement? What does seem clear to me is that election officials in Maricopa have dragged their feet through this whole process, but as someone who works in election now, an attempt to cover up election-swinging levels of fraud does not seem like the most obvious reason for their frustration.
I work in a state that went decidedly to Trump. I can assure you that my bosses would be equally irked if we had to go through the process AZ has been going through, even though there is 0 chance of outcome-altering fraud being uncovered.
On top of all of this, the Stop the Steal folks, all the way up to Trump himself, have taken the strategy of piling up claim on top of claim, seemingly without discriminating between more plausible claims and less plausible ones. It’s a gish gallop, with a bunch of straight up falsehoods thrown in for good measure. The likes of Mike Lindell, Lin Wood, and Sydney Powell have made it into a game of Whac-A-Mole. If it’s not the machines, it’s the paper ballots. Paper ballots are full-proof, unless they’re sent through the mail, then they’re bad. If it’s not the paper ballots, it’s the machines. Okay, so it was cyber hacking? When did the vote flips happen? During voting? During tabulation? During transmission? The strategy seems to be to just flood us with every conceivable claim, then hope at least one of them turns out to be correct.
You are putting a lot of stake into statistical anomalies. How is anyone supposed to be alarmed by statistical anomalies when every other indicator in our political environment of the last 6 years seems to scream “anomaly”? Is there anything that’s happened in the past 6 years that hasn’t been anomalous? Would it not have been more surprising if this election was entirely predictable?
In conclusion, we are not gobsmacked because we have all (on the left and the right) collectively engineered our epistemic systems to be ungobsmackable.
Ken
Ken, you are right that the anomalies weigh heavily with me. I would refer you to that Chronicles article I mentioned. And as far as bureaucrats being exasperated by such an audit, I am not concerned. They are paid a salary, and this should be part of their work—visibly protecting election integrity, instead of behaving in the way they did.
Contrary to popular opinion (and opinion is what it is), the Maricopa County forensic audit did not show that “Biden would have won.” It showed that the number of invalid ballots in a single county is many times the margin of victory for the entire state, and furthermore, that tens of thousands more ballots in the county have a suspicious cloud around them with no way to really disentangle which are valid or not. A state MUST be able to say with certainty who won, not make guesses. People really need to dig in to the report for themselves:
The media focused on the fact that in the categories of issues where the auditors could identify the actual ballots impacted and who they belonged to, Trump only picked up about a tenth of what he would have needed to change the results. But go look for yourself at section 5.7.11, which is buried deep in the report, so as to conveniently be overlooked. Although it uses “N/A” for the number of ballots impacted and “informational” for the severity in their summary, this category represents approximately 60k ballots of people who walked in on voting day and filled out a provisional ballot even though they already had an early mail-in ballot sent to their address per their request. Think about it—that number is 6 times the margin of victory in the state and it is a giant black hole.
No, the audit didn’t show that Biden won. It showed that they need to re-do their election.
JPH
JPH, thanks.
The Flood
I am indebted to you for your content, I love what you do and your classic wit and stance, how to react to the fools who yell and scream at you and your constant defense of the Scriptures..
I am a Calvinist Christian for the past 14 years and really try to study and understand the Bible, there have been a great many battles in my mind over things.
I know this is not your particular area, but I would love it if you could make a short video talking about creation and the flood . . . does the Bible show (in Hebrew) that the flood had to be the whole earth?
I believe it does, but I struggle to defend it against my studied nephew and geology . . . I don’t believe God could lie, and that his ‘two books’ as people call it, nature and Scripture, and that some people twist what believers said in the past that these can’t be against each other… where Nature supersedes Scripture . . .
This seems silly. Scripture is the revealed word of God a special revelation, God cannot lie, thus Scripture must come first and we must interpret what we find in nature through the lens of Scripture..
I would love to hear your thoughts on creation, death before the fall and the flood and the biblical defense thereof if you could find the time. Thank you again so much for your ministry, God bless and I hope you continue to thrive.
P.s.
Thank you for standing on Gen 6 with the angels coming down to marry the daughters of men, it seems to me that is what Scripture is saying, and people’s attempt to say that is the righteous sons of Seth marrying the daughter of Cain makes little sense, how does human + human = giants? Seems to me that they bring forth after their kind, human + human will always equal human babies..
Loved your comments on that video
David
David, thanks. That is a good suggestion, and I haven’t really done much writing on the Flood. I have filed that away.
Vaccine Issues Won’t Go Away
I’m a federal employee preparing my documents for a religious exemption to the vaccine and I am seeking accommodation. The question on the form I have to fill out asks, “describe the religious principles that guide your objection to immunization.” My reasoning for this question acknowledges the Lordship of Christ (Matthew 28:18) and freedom of conscience (Romans 14:22).
Unfortunately, explicit in the document is the acceptance of regular testing and mask-wearing. I intend to object to those as well on religious grounds. The accommodation I’m seeking is continuing to work from home, as I’ve done for the past 18 months, so regular testing is completely unnecessary (and fortunately, I won’t be required to wear a mask inside my own home . . . cue eye roll . . .). The testing regimen essentially amounts to a pagan cleanliness ritual, so I would use Acts 10:15 as a basis.
That seems right to me, and I don’t think I’m being unreasonable if my request for accommodation is granted—which would be weird if it weren’t since my entire team has been teleworking since the beginning of this nonsense. However, after reading today’s column, Public Health and the Libertarian Lure, I certainly don’t want to lean too heavily into libertarianism but rather submit to authority when appropriate. Do you think this is a reasonable, scripturally-based objection?
Thanks in advance if you have a chance to answer this.
Ryan
Ryan, it is absolutely a reasonable objection. And the libertarian thing is largely a question of motive. A liberty-loving conservative and a libertarian both working for the same company could easily file the same request for exemption.
My company announced that in several weeks I have to provide my “vaccination status” (which I’m sure will be a disappointment to them). They claim it is “in anticipation” of forthcoming OSHA requirements. They say more is coming on “next steps” once they’ve successfully bullied everyone into forfeiting their HIPAA protected medical info. I work fully remotely, no travel requirements. My inclination is to lawyer up and not comply, but at the same time job mobility may take some time, and we have two young children. Compliance now seems like a big welcome sign for more compliance later. Your thoughts on how to respond as a Christian, short of the dreaded “I am not allowed to provide legal advice” et al?
Deplorable Me
Dear Deplorable Me—can I call you Deplorable?—my advice would be to fight if you are in a position to fight. And it sounds like you are.
A Desolate Widow
The email you published from the 70 year old widow “SW” last week broke my heart as it did yours. My only addition to your answer would be a call/question as to if there is not a Christian family out there willing to “take her in” as family? Ideally, this would be from within her own church . . .
I know that if I lived in the same town as SW, I would be willing to sacrifice much (financially, etc) in order to “adopt” her as a grandmother. It reminds me of the passages in the Gospels where family member will be divided against family member, etc . . . and one’s enemy will be in one’s home. HOWEVER, God has provided so that our brothers and sisters in Christ can become true family, closer than “real” brothers/sisters, sons/daughters.
As I am a missionary, I seriously doubt SW lives in my city. But I’d throw out this challenge to anyone out there to reach out to SW (if she is willing) and take her in and honor her as a Christian widow. I keep imagining if my own Grandmother (now with Jesus) was in a similar situation, oh, what I wouldn’t do for her (or WISH someone would do)! Yet are we not even more closely related IN Christ?!
May God comfort SW and provide for all her needs.
Blessings
Eugene
Eugene, yes, that seems to me to be the ideal solution. But it seems to me that it would have to come from within her church family. I don’t see how we could tackle this kind of thing from a distance.
Burkean Conservative?
Any book recommendations or other suggestions on where to begin with getting acquainted with and then digging deeper into Burkean conservatism?
Todd
Todd, I would start with Russell Kirk’s book, The Conservative Mind.
OT in the NT
Can you recommend a study guide for when you get to the point of studying the NT in the context of the OT and how the NT shows (or expands upon) the lessons and prophesies of the OT?
Steve
Steve, for in depth study, check out G.K. Beale’s work on the subject—New Testament Use of the Old Testament. In addition, Logos Bible Software has a tool that enables you to study and compare.
Mark of the Beast
Last week in your letters to the editor, you answered a question that asked if the mandate hysteria was the mark of the beast. You replied that the beast was Nero, and that other Neros have acted in similar ways to the original. My question is, if all options have been exhausted, should we as believers consent to showing proof of vaccine status (real or otherwise)?
As a pastor, I am going to hold the line as much as possible, but if the only way to get on an airplane to share the Gospel around the world is through vaccine card, I would be willing to show the card or qr code (whether the jab is real or not, well, I know a guy as well). I would also show it to go to the local store to buy provisions for the family. Obviously, what I won’t do is preach from the communist-approved version of the Bible, kiss the image of lord Fauci or President Brandon in the produce aisle, and I will not be checking your card as a precondition to entering the church. However, what do we do when all other options are exhausted?
Matt
Matt, given how things are unfolding, I don’t really think that we can avoid a showdown. All the things involved with local compliance, or fake IDs, are just the precursor to that showdown.
Did Paul Write Hebrews?
I’ve heard you mention on a couple occasions that you believe Paul to be the author of Hebrews. What convinced you of this? Any books you recommend on the subject?
Nathan
Nathan, John Owen argues for Pauline authorship in his (7 vol.) commentary on Hebrews. And I have a section on that in my commentary on it, Christ and His Rivals.
Old Credenda?
How do I get access to old Credenda articles? I see that Credenda.org no longer exists. I’m looking the article where you describe a typical Sabbath day and make the case that regardless of how one understands the 4th commandment, why wouldn’t you want to live this way?
Pierre
Pierre, we are working on a way to get old articles onto the Canon app. In the meantime, if you could figure out which issue it was, Canon has back issues in hard copy.
References?
I’m new to your ministry, learned about you through your book, Rules For Reformers, and have enjoyed your blog.
For brevity’s sake, I can say I’ve known Christ for most of my life, but in hindsight, have realized my walk with Him has been at a distance that has reduced in degrees over the years.
A major difficulty of late is in finding a church home where I might find mentors and opportunities to serve. The few attempts I’ve made have been disappointing due to current woke politics hijacking the message, whereas before, the greatest difficulty was finding a church with a bigger food pantry and clothing drive than their cappuccino bar and social center.
Do you suggest a resource or network of engaged churches? Best regards and God Bless.
James
James, not knowing where you live, the best I can do is this—the CREC web site.
Women in the Armed Forces
I am a Platoon Leader in the Oklahoma Army National Guard. I currently lead an infantry platoon and soon will be leading a mortar platoon. I completely agree with the article mentioned above, and have determined that the moment I find I will be in leadership over women in a combat role is the moment I must leave the Guard.
Does it follow that women cannot be in non-combat roles in the military? Meaning a quartermaster, cook, medic, etc. I mean any role where their primary function is not to fire a weapon, but they still wear the uniform of a Soldier.
Tomas
Tomas, I believe that the law expressly forbids women from serving in combat roles, and I believe that wisdom dictates that they not be in roles that are right next door to that. I don’t believe they should be part of combat units. But there should be no problem with women serving as (say) nurses in a military hospital.
Thanks from Some Adventists
Bless you and your family, Pastor Wilson. We are Seventh-Day Adventists who read your blog and the articles that Canon Press send to us by email weekly. Your writings in the “Like a Tabloid Tarantula” uplift Jesus Christ and are the most beautiful call to repentance for the Christian pastors who have compromised with the world that we have ever read. Praise God! Jesus told us that we would be persecuted for His Name and not be surprised. The last week you have gone through clearly shows you are doing God’s work. God bless you and all your family
Catheryn
Catheryn, many thanks, and God bless.
Prerequisites
How can I answer an atheist who insists that I prove to him the existence of Satan? Unfortunately my answer was: I have no obligation to prove anything to you. I guess that was inappropriate, but I had no better answer.
God bless You.
Carlos
Carlos, some subjects require prerequisite knowledge. I would tell your friend “sure,” but I have to start with God and Christ first. This is because the devil does not have autonomous existence.
Joyful Noise
You say that certain musical instruments and genres are more suited to corporate worship than others, and on an intuitive level, I’m inclined to agree. However, what are we to make of trumpets, loud clashing symbols, dancing and harps in Psalm 150? (I’m told that harps in those days were similar to banjos).
Thanks
P
P, yes, but I think that clashing symbols and loud horns should be included. We will defer out discussion of dancing to a more suitable time.
Regarding your comments on circumcision: one practical reason to circumcise your sons is that foreskins can get caught in zippers. Very painful.
Fingers get smashed, toes get stubbed, hair gets ripped out doesn’t mean we amputate appendages or shave all our hair
You know what else can (very painfully) get stuck in zippers? Maybe we should take Paul’s advice in Gal 5:12 and go the way of the Skoptsy!
Too drastic a solution! Do what gentlemen did before the invention of zippers–buttons!
I used to wear button fly jeans… I’m guessing Levi’s still makes the 501 in button fly, but it seems that the zipper has won the great pants closure war. I don’t think that is cause for any anatomical adjustments, though!
I’m not really opposed to circumcision! It *is* genital mutilation, but it is a pretty mild form.
I had a designer pair of jeans with buttons but they are not good for ladies with fumbly fingers and exigent calls of nature. Zippers it will have to be.
My Jewish brother-in-law horrified the family by not having his kids circumcised. He also married a Catholic woman so the kids aren’t technically Jewish–which was the family’s only consolation. I find circumcision a little creepy but I’m the mom who couldn’t be in the room when my baby got shots!
That must be why the Navy dress uniforms have all those buttons on the fly. My son HATES them but apparently there are worse things than too many buttons on a rarely worn (now that he’s done with training) uniform!
I think the best argument is that neither young kids nor dementia patients are fastidious about hygiene and “flora” isn’t always pretty.
On the historicity of Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM82qxxskZE
I was gonna recommend this documentary. I didn’t realize it was on youtube. There is a book – The New Creationism – that covers basically the same material.
That book is a great one-stop-shop for the topic.
“He was just being a good husband and checking on what his wife was learning.”
I hope you have your LP/OP’s posted and your MA’s emplaced. It won’t be long for the next movement to contact by those with hair triggers on their outrage systems.
And just think, Mr. Gray, it’s almost November!
I noticed this sentence and assumed it was an example of our host’s dry sense of humour.
I for one don’t check up on my wife, I know her well enough and trust her discernment not to need to.
She has shown over the years an uncanny knack of seeing through so much of the chaff that accompanies the current Christian scene
I think that “checking” is an element of the protection provision that is intrinsic to authority: (sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word). In any command dynamic, “your people” are your responsibility, and ensuring protection and provision are both organic functions. It is, after all, what Christ does for His bride, which is a type of the marriage relationship.
I think that “checking” is an element of the protection provision that is intrinsic to authority: …. In any command dynamic, … Not sure we ever likely to agree much on this one. You are still viewing the marriage relationship through the lens of authority. I’m more convinced than ever that too much is being built on the word head in Eph 5 in this regard. Certainly not a command dynamic. The analogy of Christ and church to husband and wife is more to do with how a husband should treat his wife in the sense of having a duty of… Read more »
Let’s run a little thought experiment, shall we?
“[Husbands] should indeed [love], but this is not unconditional, a sinning [wife] being the obvious example. There [he] should obey God rather than man.”
What thinkest thou, Ken B?
Another sanctimonious reply from a bitter fellow who has no idea what a healthy marriage looks like. I doubt you have ever been married or even held a woman in your arms. So, why don’t you just sit this one out down in your mother’s basement.
FYI, the Greek word for love in Col.3 is agape. So, you got that wrong, too. Geez.
If I wanted your opinion, I would have given it to you.
Now, get lost.
Oh my! I touched a nerve. Don’t give up, they say there’s someone for everyone. I’m sure he’s out there somewhere.
Your Classical Christian Homeschool Education is on full display. That’s not a compliment.
Nice self-own there, champ. Kinda hard to be bitter when I’m too busy laughing at your ineptitude.
Now, go back to your room and play, little boy. You’re clearly not ready for prime time.
Sounds like a compliment to me. Best kind of education in the world! Frees you from being a lefty Troll like Will.
I have a quiz for you FP:
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
Do you want to add a “unless” or a “but?” Obedience and honoring of husbands, fathers, elders, and governing authorities is all of a cloth.
Demo, I’m so glad you asked!
Too bad you asked the wrong person.
Don’t you find it just a teensy bit ironic that the same person who’s quick to find exceptions to a husband’s authority (he might abuse it!) can’t seem to find the strength to bat an eyelash when governments openly abuse their citizens over an eminently survivable virus?
It can be addressed to all of us, Ken included. Though he has expressed disagreement with some of the covid policies, so i don’t necessarily see inconsistency.
How about you? If a wife disagrees with her husband’s decisions should she talk about him in the way you talk about the government?
Why do you assume The Commenter Formerly Known As fp is a husband? He’s dodged that question on every occasion it was asked.
I assume no such thing. I said “if a wife” not “if your wife.”
Wives are required to be subject to their husband’s and to treat them with respect and honor, and we are all required to be subject to our government and treat them with respect and honor. Being subject to is not the same thing as slavery, and obedience is never without reference to a higher law, but neither wife nor subject nor citizen should be characterized by rebellion or reviling.
My point being, why would you ask someone who’s not married what his opinion is on husband/wife relations?
Demo, in the manner of biblical relms of authority, and specifically in the US, a Constitutional Republic established by God, there is a huge difference between the civil government and the family.
They don’t equate in your example.
Dave,
Regardless of the form of government, the Bible speaks of these relationships in remarkably similar ways. The “be subject to” or “obey” in Rom 13:1 is a version of the same word used in Eph 5:24 for the churches submission to Christ and a wife submission to her husband.
It is scripture that relates (not equates) these things, not me.
Demo, I’ve been busy and unable to respond. Scripture applies differently in different forms of government. We see this in scripture and we see it in our history and in today’s different governments. There is a sharp distinction between authority of the government and authority of the husband at home. In North Korea or China, or under Caesar, the ultimate civil authority is the top dog. Under the US Constitutional Republic, the ultimate civil authority is the US Constitution followed by the individual State Constitutions. In America, when our civil authorities violate their oath of office or exceed the authority… Read more »
Dave, You could just as well say scripture applies differently with different forms of marriage, or scripture applies differently with different forms of ecclesiology. The letters were written under a corrupt and illegitimate government that had literally murdered their way into office, while claiming to maintain the integrity of the republican institutions. And scripture gives us almost identical constructions for the church being subject to Christ, wives being subject to their husbands, and Christians being subject to the government. If we believe that one of those no longer applies then we should be pointing to something a lot more robust… Read more »
Demo, which countries have a Constitutional Republic founded on Christian principles besides the US?
If biblical marriage hasn’t changed, why aren’t Christians still marrying their dead brother’s wife to produce an heir to keep the family inheritance? Why aren’t Christians participating in polyamous or pligamous marriages?
Dave, I didn’t say biblical marriage hasn’t changed. I said (actually implied due to the flow of the argument) that even if the forms, conventions, and constitutions of marriage vary across cultures and time the requirement that wives be subject to their husband is not abrogated. Likewise, though the form, liturgical practice, governance, language, hymnody, etc. varies between churches over time and space the requirement that they be subject to the Lord does not change. Likewise, though the form and accoutrements of governance vary greatly among men, the requirement that we be subject to and honor our magistrates does not… Read more »
Demo, Rome’s constitution was weak in structure and was not founded on Christian principles at all. The US Constitutional Republic was founded on biblical principles and there is a sharp difference between a republic built on pagan rules, a constitutional monarchy and our republic based on scripture. Our elected officials are held responsible to the Constitution via their oath of office. As Christians, we have a biblical responsbility under our Constitution to resist and refuse actions against scripture and our Constitution. Christians holding a viewpoint that it is unscriptural to resist ungodly actions by the government have given America a… Read more »
Dave,
You are perverting scripture. Wives are subject to their husbands and the governed are subject to their government. Wives with ungodly husbands should remain in subjection to them while influencing them to righteousness. Men with ungodly magistrates should do likewise. The idea that the clear teaching of scripture is no longer in force because we have a different form of government is folly. Read the reformers on this topic, read the puritans. What you are putting forward is antinomian rot.
Demo, sorry for the antinomian rot as you see it. We do disagree there. -Gideon resisted the Mideon government and God restored Israel giving them years of peace. -Daniel resisted his king and God used his disobediance to have King Darius proclaim that all were to tremble and fear the God of Daniel. -Shadrack, Meshac and Abednegro resisted King Nebuchadnezzar’s decree. Afterwards, King Nebuchadnezzar decreed that any people, nation, or population of any language that speaks anything offensive against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego shall be torn limb from limb and their houses made a rubbish heap, because… Read more »
No, none of them are antinomians (though we should acknowledge that Gideon’s case is a bit more complicated than the others). They all honored the king (even when he was a bloodthirsty tyrant) while trying to preserve their lives, obeying the commands of their lord, and refusing to do evil. These men are great examples of how we should conduct ourselves when our rulers are ungodly. We should conspicuously honor our magistrates, we should carry insult and injury cheerfully, and we should refuse to act wickedly either by refraining from telling the truth (including, but not limited to sharing the… Read more »
I don’t think it works the other way round. A husband unconditionally loving his wife in the agape sense would never do her any harm by definition, and it would be safe for her to submit to him. Love does not insist on its own way. 1 Cor 13 : 4
The problem is no husband is perfect (unlike Christ) so unconditional submission to him might lead her into harm’s way. If he wants her to sin, then she needs to obey God rather than man.
Sure it does. If you can add an “unless” or a “but” to one command — words that aren’t even part of that command — then you can add them to all of God’s commands.
All it takes is a little creativity. For instance:
Love your neighbor as yourself, unless he rapes your wife.
You should indeed honor your parents, but this is not unconditional; long-haired, maggot-infested, dope-smoking FM-type parents being the obvious example.
If he trusts his wife’s intelligence and good judgment, I’m not sure how much “checking” a husband would find necessary. As my child approached adulthood, I stopped any oversight of what she read–and a wife is not a child. From the little I’ve picked up here and there, I’ve noticed that there is a lot of Christian writing for women that I think is truly awful. But I would be concerned about a wife who can’t see that for herself. I do think husbands and wives are generally aware of what their spouses are reading; the stacks on the bedside… Read more »
Ma’am, Respectfully, the principle of command invariably includes “checking”. It is not demeaning for someone with command authority to examine areas of compliance. For faithful subordinates, this is not being accomplished to “lord it over”. It is performed because they are “his people”; their provision, protection and very lives are his responsibility. It is an act of honorable duty. Regarding the conferring of authority, it was from of old, and it was correlated with the now-indwelling sin of rebellion: “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” It is axiomatic that Jesus Christ correlates… Read more »
“checking on her compliance”
Just yikes.
But, this is, for everyone unfamiliar—the CREC.
—Jesus admired this man’s faith in the power of God.
Did Jesus use his power like a military man?
Not at all.
🙏🙏🙏
“command authority” “examine areas of compliance” “faithful subordinates” Sadly, this man is talking about his wife. But, this is, for everyone unfamiliar—the CREC. —Jesus admired this man’s faith in the power of God. I think that was the point of the story. This gentile guy with great faith—wow. Not that this guy understood how the Lord treats His Bride… He wasn’t commending that part. This guy was a military guy, for sure, and saw things in a military way. The power of God he got right. And, his faith in the power of God. He was commended for that. All… Read more »
I do appreciate how respectfully (and kindly) you interact with me. My question wasn’t really about authority and subordination in marriage; I accept that as a principle of traditional Christian marriage, and I don’t reject the concept of “checking”as flowing from a husband’s authority. I was more specifically focused on whether a trusted wife’s decisions about what she reads actually need to be checked. Using your analogy, the people under someone’s command–and for whose welfare he is responsible–will vary individually in the amount and type of supervision they require. The senior ranking officer under his authority needs less direct monitoring… Read more »
Ma’am,
I think that your understanding is correct.
I was most simply elaborating upon the general principles of authority, subordination, provision and protection. I do not think that you are or have been opposed to that in any fashion.
Thank you for your courtesy. It is something that creates an environment that, to our disadvantage, has seemingly been cast aside.
President Brandon.
First name: Lesko.
Replying to Doug Wilson’s reply concerning Cassie’s letter: Doug you said that Cassie referenced your daughter Rachel as a woman in the CREC who is ” downtrodden”. I’m curious Doug, do you read? That’s not what she said at all. She was referring to the fact that your daughter has set herself up as a teacher ( I’m sure of course the caveat is under the authority of her husband , I know we got to get that in there, we can’t have rogue women); who teaches women that unless submission is hard for a wife/ women she isn’t doing… Read more »
Corrina, Rachel has not “set herself up” as a teacher. In our circles, we have taught for decades, in line with what Paul instructs, that older women should teach younger women. Rachel practices what she teaches, and so what she was saying came out of her experience—an experience that Cassie said was oppressive. She was simply saying that when husband and wife are in agreement, submission doesn’t come into it. When you differ, and a decision must be made, and it is difficult to give way. Now if it is oppressive for Ms. Smith and Ms. Jones to live like… Read more »
It’s not hard to submit to healthy dynamics in a healthy relationship. It is hard to submit to unhealthy dynamics in an unhealthy relationship. Christ Church and the CREC foster unhealthy dynamics and relationships but think, and have encouraged everyone else to think, that they are healthy. That’s calling the evil stuff good which was mentioned by another commenter, and was preceded by a “Woe to you!” in scripture. Husbands in the CREC think they need to make their wives comply or submit to them—even by manipulation. I tell you now Doug posted something about taking things away from your… Read more »
Cassie, would you please cite where I said anything like that? About taking away stuff until she obeys?
Doug, you do delete a lot of content it seems… I’ll try to find it. But, from past experience CREC leaders tend to “forget” a lot. Or say there was misunderstanding. And, somehow both of those things at the same time? I’ve been on the receiving end of high-end control from CREC church elders, witnessed slander and gossip from them, too. After no progress trying to work it out with them, I told the church. Some asked questions and it was all denied. I then became the perpetrator. I believe the Lord is vindicating those who have been mistreated and… Read more »
Cassie, no, I don’t delete stuff like that because I don’t say stuff like that. And I don’t say stuff like that because I don’t think that way.
Yes, you certainly did. My husband was a fan and I brought this to his attention after reading it…
Still looking for it—can’t find it.
Memory can play tricks on us, and nearly everyone is more confident in their memory than they should be. (This has bitten me more than once, and I can remember one unfortunate occasion when my overconfidence led to quite foolishly insulting my family.) But if Doug Wilson stoutly maintains (right here in public with a lot of sympathetic readers around) that he does not and has not believed or taught anything like “deny your wife things she wants until she obeys you”, and there’s no direct, to-the-point corroboration to be found anywhere, then there’s actually a pretty fair chance that… Read more »
Cassie remembers it, Doug denies it. Doug’s track record of obfuscations and, a multitude of walk backs leads me to believe Cassie.
By “obfuscations and a multitude of walk backs”, do you mean the dozens of carefully-recorded, specific retractions to still-extant posts with the original mistake left intact for future reference? And by “believe” do you mean “conclude in favor of without need for further evidence”? If you really do mean that the evidence of any random person’s memory should be considered sufficient to condemn someone in the court of public opinion, with no need for cross-examination, corroboration, or any further ceremony, than there is certainly no reason to trust your judgment on any such issue. There might be thousands of people… Read more »
There’s plenty of evidence that’s been posted on this sight for years. You just don’t want to believe it. That’s your choice.
I disagree that anyone is morally free to simply disagree with the truth (although certainly we should not be going around forcing others to agree with us by coercion). Your implicit accusation (with a veneer of live-and-let-live superiority) that I’m happy to reject sound arguments and good evidence because I dislike the conclusion is wide of the mark. Instead of condemning me for not having already agreed with you, make your case. “How forceful are right words!” P.S. Make sure the evidence is actually coherent. A collection of disparate anecdotes about how bad Doug Wilson was in various situations that… Read more »
Either you really don’t care about the abuse of women in your organizations or you’re just too lazy look for yourself. I’ve reared two children already. I have no desire to spoon feed another one.
Yeah, that’s about what I expected. Standard postmodern playbook: try to guilt someone into making an arbitrary investment of time researching unspecified sources, and make sure they know that if they get a different answer, it must be because they just didn’t look at the right ones.
Which ones are the right ones? “How dare you ask me that!”
If you’re not interested in spending time convincing others of your strongly held beliefs, then don’t. It’s as easy as not posting. In fact it saves even more time.
There’s been plenty of digital ink regarding Wilson and his behavior. You could start with moscowid.net, a site that that goes into great detail regarding Wilson’s past transgressions. There’s plenty of proof there. I’m not holding my breath though. You don’t strike me as someone really looking for the truth. Be honest, you don’t really want to know.
I’ve spent hours there in the past, and spent a few more just now. I found an awful lot of insinuations — posts that would strengthen an existing revulsion, but that had no actual coherent claim to be evaluated, just repeating generally-known news in a sinister tone and with some ominous commentary. (This malicious love of negative artificial news substitutes does not show good faith in the operators of the website. It is extremely clear that they would happily repeat anything that sounded bad about Doug Wilson and would never admit anything good about him if they couldn’t spin it… Read more »
Your last is spot on!
That is your last paragraph is spot on.
Nathan, the web site you looked at is not interested in the truth. It is a carefully crafted mixing bits of truth and falsehood to produce hatred toward Christ Church and Wilson. There is a huge amount of untold material in the particular case you mentioned. That site does not post all the unsealed court documents which show more facets in that very complex case and pour extinguishing agent on the attempted bonfire. Also, that particular site posted a copyrighted private wedding video. The video owner requested the video be removed, however, instead the site owner laughed and refused. That… Read more »
Cassie, I don’t remember a post that said that specifically. The closest thing I remember was the bit about taking a wife who doesn’t do the dishes before the elders–and Doug did walk that quite a way back. But, assume for the moment he did say it. None of those three items represent taking things away from the wife. They’re not in the same category as “Because you won’t obey me, I have taken away your car keys” or “I’ve taken everything except your denim jumpers out of your closet; you can have the other things back when you submit.”… Read more »
Actually, Doug, I think it would be healthy to hear what you would say to a man treating his wife like this. AND what you would say to his wife.
No need to ultra-cerebralize this. Just generally, what would you say to both of them?
I’m definitely concerned at what I hear counseled to wives in troubling scenarios like this. And, much worse ones.
“…don’t give her that new wardrobe, that new car, that house remodel until she does.”
Your Veruca Salt impression needs some work. She would have demanded a new house.
Weird how you jump to “I’m sure that this happens” instead of looking at the hundreds of incredibly healthy and and godly relationships in the CREC. Absolutely guarantee you they outnumber what you speak of (if there are any cases like that at all).
People being human, there are likely to be some cases. What Cassie doesn’t take into account is that no woman is forced to marry a man with a traditional Christian view of marriage. And that power imbalances and unjust treatment occur in plenty of marriages where there is no religious belief at all. In those unhappy homes, the wife can’t even appeal to a Higher Authority.
I think underneath the happy and “got-it-together” exterior, there are a lot of deeply hurting and confused people… But, good people, too, who want to exalt Christ and just keep trying harder at what is not working…
I think I am accurate in saying that.
You think, or you know? That’s a serious accusation to say about a whole denomination.
I think that “deeply hurting and confused” is part of the human condition at least once in a while. That doesn’t mean that the basic ground rules of the marriage don’t work; it means that no matter how hard a spouse (male or female) tries, there is no way to shield a loved one from emotional pain and doubt. If a woman finds submission really difficult, I don’t think the best husband in the world can make it easy and pleasant for her–just as the best wife in the world can’t ensure that her husband never feels overwhelmed with the… Read more »
Hey, Jill. I was referencing those feelings in regard to the basic ground rules in these marriages not working. I think “submission” in these circles is taught without the Spirit of Christ and becomes bondage. Tough words but very true. I don’t mean to say everyone who subscribes is without the Spirit of Christ in these churches. But, they’re in a mess, that’s for sure. Way too much experience over here. And, the leaders are held responsible to a higher degree. May He set souls free. There’s enough on the internet for everyone to steer clear of the CREC if… Read more »
Thank you, Cassie. I think I have–not the kind of happiness I thought I would have (I had a very happy marriage from my point of view) but happiness nonetheless.
Spectral evidence went out of fashion when the Salem witch trials got shut down. What you think you know about what you can’t possibly know is worthless.
Well, this isn’t spectral evidence. So marked safe.
It’s equivalent. It’s something you’re claiming to know by some means that is not actually available to you, about things you’re not privy to.
There’s plenty of evidence and it’s been provided time and time again for years on this very blog and all over the internet. You just don’t like it because it indicts and convicts Wilson of gross pastoral malfeasance. He’s obviously feeling the walls closing in on his fiefdom.
I’m not talking about specific evidence of specific situations. I’m talking about a blanket evaulation of marriages she knows nothing about, as though she has access to secret knowledge about them. If you accept that as a valid sort of assertion about anyone, or any group of people, anywhere, you are throwing biblical justice right out the window. And my point isn’t changed by the fact that people do this a lot or some of sort of whatabout comparison. It’s wrong no matter who is doing it to whom.
My question is: Why aren’t you talking about it? Like I said, I was a former member of a CREC church. I wasn’t there as long as some people before they got out, but I saw enough. There are certain conditions required for a happy marriage. Biblically. When those conditions are thwarted, and by terrible theology that everyone subscribes to, you won’t find happy marriages. It’s just not how God made it to work. What you might get is people trying to be happy despite being very unhappy. I have eyes to see, ears to listen, and a compassionate heart… Read more »
Cassie, Obviously I don’t know you, I don’t know your situation, and I don’t know what sort of advice and instruction, good or bad, you received at your CREC church. But I have been a member at various CREC churches for over a decade, and I can tell you with certainty that the quality of the average marriage is at least as good as in other churches, and is much better than the norm for our culture. People are sinners, marriage is hard, and much of the message we receive every day damages fidelity, so there are plenty of marital… Read more »
How do YOU know she knows nothing about these marriage? If she did in fact know, would that change your opinion Wilson?
No, it would just confirm the fact that the people in his church are human, which doesn’t reflect on him, and that Cassie is using that fact as a weapon against Wilson instead of doing something constructive with the situations she knows the details of. There are, after all, biblical instructions for what to do about things you have knowledge of.
Have you even read what these two ladies have posted? A weapon against Wilson? Wilson’s weaponized his entire ministry. I doubt he would disagree with that assessment.
So you’re just going to ignore the main point, which is that whatever may be true about Wilson, IF Cassie has actual knowledge of specific situations, she’s doing the opposite of what is biblical with that knowledge, and IF she doesn’t, her speculation is also ungodly?
How do you know she is using the wrong approach? Isn’t it possible that she has done all she can within her particular church situation. What would you counsel her to do if her pastors and elders refused to address her situation in a proper manner, or worse, ignored it and shamed her? You do realize that evangelical churches are not immune from bad actors?
Have you even dialogued with her this past week? It’s difficult to understand your reticence to engage her.
What are you afraid of?
Cassie and Corrina=Bitter women
What a lazy predictable response
Ma’am, if a husband is truly loving his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it…he will find it difficult.
Following Christ can be difficult.
What a lazy predictable response
Yes and no. Yes, there are any number of ‘survivor’ blogs out there peopled by some very bitter women, not least in connection with Doug Wilson and the Natalie Greenfield thing. I believe the Lord told me to stop getting involved with reading all this, partly a conviction this was not redeeming the time (why does someone 7000 miles away need to know what happened nearly 2 decades ago), and partly through a comment in a discussion over this very thing that it can pollute your brain, a kind of blog pornography, only with bitterness as the clinging sin. Like… Read more »
Very well said. I too stopped reading most of those posts. I can’t tell whom to believe, I can’t know the full story, and above all, it is none of my business.
“…ask why so many women are bitter.” There could be one easily explainable reason that correlates with the same reason that successful work is a blessing, but not automatic. Because God decreed it: “to Adam he said…cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;…” No one regularly questions why work is hard, difficult and fraught with failure. “To the woman He said, Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” A reasonable person… Read more »
Another sanctimonious virtue-signal because of Vice.
The irony. It burns.
Another sanctimonious predictable response because of a being a flying monkey of Douglas Wilson. Again just laziness.
Uh, did you actually read the comment? It was a rather droll bit of wordplay, but it seems to make a good point: it’s morally inconsistent for a magazine celebrating and reveling in vice (which it does) to be taken as an authority on what constitutes virtue. Maybe the idea of your response was that droll wordplay concealing genuine moral insights is a predictable feature of anyone imitating Doug Wilson. There are many far worse fates! Perhaps, instead, you were trying to argue against the common conservative use of “virtue signaling” to refer to conspicuous shows of high-minded, politically-correct moralizing,… Read more »
Another sanctimonious predictable response because of a being a flying monkey of Vice. Again, just laziness.
Now that we’ve gotten the tired, third-rate insults from your musty playbook out of the way, an honest question: You believe everything you read in alternative punk magazines?
Do you believe God is sovereign? Do you believe he uses whoever he wishes to bring about his good purposes in the world? Do you believe he even uses the ungodly at times to bring low those professing to be godly, but are just according to Him desecrating his holy temple? If you read your Bible at all I think I know how you’d have to answer these questions. I think of the story Tamar and Judah. Tamar a Canaanite woman was being severely abused by pretty much all the men she was connected to. She was actually being exploited… Read more »
Are you saying the person writing for Vice is a professing Christian? The answer is no, she is not christian no matter what she professes. She’s writing for Vice for goodness sake. And the fact that elders didn’t listen to your obnoxious whining about made-up fantasies is that they already knew they were false, and I’m assuming that church has been healthier since you left.
Now the only thing we can pray for is your repentance from believing these awful slanders and return to the gracious arms of Jesus.
I am shocked, and then again, not shocked at your behavior—Christ Church member?
No they weren’t false. A whole crec report pointed out exactly what I had been saying all along. All kinds of document court documents, Doug’s own blogging. Read the report. It wasn’t obnoxious whining unless it was also obnoxious whining from those church leaders in the crec who did the report. Just a real desire on Doug’s part to sweep things under the rug and he seems to have a lot of ability to do just that. God sees though. I’m not worried. I believe truth will be revealed even if it comes by means of a secular magazine article… Read more »
Corrina, the CREC report didn’t tell the entire story. The CREC investigators worked with the information they had, but they didn’t get all the relevant information. This was hashed out years ago and just like other bloggers or online magazines, the story is being told in a manner which does not benefit anyone. Vice is another attempt twisting the actual facts to start a fire using rocks. It didn’t work years ago, and it doesn’t work now. You are right, God will sort out things, and He has blessed the work in Moscow. Every time the supposed dirty deals are… Read more »
Please don’t speak of the gracious arms of Jesus when you act like this. It’s truly revolting.
And the fact that elders didn’t listen to your obnoxious whining about made-up fantasies is that they already knew they were false, and I’m assuming that church has been healthier since you left. You aren’t doing your cause much good by responding this way. The elders couldn’t have known the ‘whining’ was false before they had heard it and investigated it. It sounds to me as though you are unprepared to countenance the possibility of abuse in your own constituency. I have benefitted from many fine conservative Anglican evangelicals, but in recent months have been gravely disappointed to find out… Read more »
Sarah Stankorb? Professing Christian? You’re kidding, right? From Stankorb’s article in the Washington Post entitled, “Teaching my daughter that God might be a girl“: My daughter is four, and with preschool comes playground theology. Explanations of heaven and God get passed around between swings and slides as kids make sense of lost family members and pets.It’s an age that gives me a nervous twinge: I don’t believe anymore, but I don’t want to dictate atheism or belief. Further into the article, she proceeds to list all the usual, tired leftist tropes to bash the church: Misogyny, the acronym “community”, conservative… Read more »
He used the Assyrian’s to judge Israel and a professing Atheist to expose Ravi Zacharias. What God does with the wickedness that resides in the midst of those he uses for judgement on His people is up to His good pleasure. He can make them His friend or He can judge them as well. But to say there is no way God could be using a Vice article writer to reveal truth just because it’s Vice and they have written lots of really bad stuff is totally contrary to revealed examples we have in scripture. Not to mention completely ignorant.… Read more »
“I have no need to convince you of my belief that I’m justified in being concerned…” And yet, here you are, trying to convince me of your belief and trying to justify your “concern”. Do you ever listen to yourself? The chances of God using Vice to “reveal truth” about this particular situation are slim to none. In case you haven’t noticed, Vice has a credibility problem, and their readership only cares about this sort of thing to the extent that it reinforces their overweening anti-Christian prejudice and bigotry. You trying to liken this to God using Assyria to judge… Read more »
Oh my word! Another Christ Church member, I’m sure.
Well, I’m glad you’re proof to everyone of the attitudes fostered there.
I say no more.
Not a Christ Church member. You can’t even get that right, yet we’re supposed to believe your other accusations?
You know, it’s almost an insult to Doug how incompetent his adversaries are.
Fp, I think you’d get along there just fine.
And here you were, sure that I was a Christ Church member.
You sit there, shrieking at Doug for not taking responsibility when he’s allegedly wrong, yet when you’re proven wrong, you double down.
What was it you said? Now I remember: “You have a responsibility to make it right. Amen.”
Hurts to sit down when your own words come back to bite you in the butt, don’t it?
Obviously, I didn’t know for sure if you were a Christ Church member. There’s no way I would know that. My point was you seemed just like them. But, yeah, it certainly was a guess.
You do seem a flaming fan so my guess is you’ve had some sort of close relationship with them.
And, pish-posh, on your definition of proof or even credibility. You don’t seem like a trustworthy man.
“I’m sure!”
“Obviously, I didn’t know for sure!”
Children do a better job of trying to save face than you, Cassie. You should quit while you’re behind.
What was it you said? Oh, that’s right: “Your character is very evident to me. You are unwilling to see sin in yourself. And, attack all of those who would ask you to confront it. You want what you want and you think it’s going well.”
Sucks when you’re on the receiving end, doesn’t it?
You are so infuriating, lol.
You just don’t get anyone using sarcasm, I guess, except if it’s from your main man Wilson and the clan.
You do have the same attitude that comes out of Moscow. That part was not sarcastic. It’s obvious that you’re an ardent follower and representative of the kirk.
So, no foul play.
✌️
Ladies and gentlemen, I present Cassie, patron saint of Truth:
You can trust her. She means what she says.
Smooth move, to provoke someone into continued unwise responses, then mock them for being so easy to provoke. 8/troll.
The Zacharias case revealed a crass lack of discernment amongst most (though not all) of the evangelical establishment. The so-called survivor blogs were proved right, and not for the first time. Too many evangelical followers of Ravi doubled-down to defend him and assume the accusations made against him were false, and came from the accuser of the brethren. If Christians are so lacking in spiritual insight they can be blinded by a man’s reputation it might just be that God does use an atheist to take the lid off things. Zacharias handed the enemies of the faith a huge amount… Read more »
So? How many people reveal a crass lack of discernment when it comes to the left and sexual abuse? If you think politics doesn’t play a role, then you aren’t firing on all cylinders. For instance, I don’t see any of your “survivor blogs” jumping all over the Loudoun County public school system for covering up the horrific sexual assault of a teenaged girl at the hands of a pervert in a skirt — a male deviant they practically ushered into the girls’ bathroom because of their simpering obeisance to the Acronym Mafia. And you know what the best part… Read more »
You deflect.
The entire diatribe about Zacharias was a deflection. Never listened to him, never followed him, don’t know enough about the situation, nor do I care to. If the accusations against Zacharias are true, then that’s an indictment against Zacharias, not evangelical Christianity in general. Trying to smear an entire group of people based on unquantifiable metrics (“most of the evangelical establishment”, “too many evangelical followers”, “Christians…lacking in spiritual insight”) is a childish debate tactic. That it was a thinly veiled political smear is doubly smarmy. You know as well as I do that what happens on the left side of… Read more »
Boy, you like deflection. Bringing up Zacharias was not. It was making a present point. There is a tendency for some groups to protect their leader and the institution unfairly/unbiblically and it’s built on unhealthy relationship dynamics within the group. This happened to me at the church I was at. And, guess what? That church ticked off almost all the boxes of being a cult. On one list I saw—all of them. We ought to learn from the past. And, bringing up Zacharias was wise. I don’t see you caring to invite any scrutiny of your man Wilson. Which is… Read more »
“All of your dismissal, minimization, deflection, character assassinations, and smear campaigns are textbook tactics…”
Says the woman who can’t even back up her accusations: “Still looking for it—can’t find it.”
Putting you under oath would singlehandedly drive popcorn futures through the roof. The resulting train wreck would be epic.
And I don’t see you caring to invite any scrutiny of the public school system, where way more abuse takes place. Your priorities are out of whack.
i) I am not a leftie :-) ii) ‘Survivor’ blogs dealing with abuse in the church are not going to comment on abuse outside of it. iii) Bringing up Zacharias is to comment on evangelical lack of discernment, I am not implying anything about Doug Wilson. You really ought to look up the Zacharias case. My default position on the kind of allegations made used to be one of scepticism. If true in this particular instance they would imply the man was likely not a Christian at all. His ministry had the allegations investigated independently, and had to issue a… Read more »
Ken B, you don’t read too well, do you? I simply don’t care about the Zacharias case. You know why? The guy is six feet under. The line between the figurative and the literal is quite blurry when it comes to beating this dead horse. Meanwhile, we have a horrific case of abuse of a minor child and cover-up in a public school — involving people who are still very much alive — and you don’t give a rat’s rear end. When it comes to lack of discernment, so-called “progressives” are legendary. How many people who call themselves Christians are… Read more »
I simply don’t care about the Zacharias case. That’s not the point, it is that he is an example who revealed an absence of discernment (those particular gifts of the Spirit are ‘not for today’?), a willingness to defend evangelical power structures and an unwillingness to take the accusations of his victims seriously. Meanwhile, we have a horrific case of abuse of a minor child … When it comes to lack of discernment, so-called “progressives” are legendary. I think you are deflecting. We have two women on here who claim abuse in conservative, reformed, complementarian if not patriarchal churches. The sins of… Read more »
That’s for sure. We Catholics will be paying in tithes, and more importantly in shame, for years to come.
Jill – the context of my comment was, as seen on TV, the Catholic laity in Germany are incensed at what the hierarchy has done over the last few decades in not only in the extent and failure to deal with abuse, but actively covering it up thereby enabling its continuation. Bishops who overlook rather than oversee. We are now starting to see amongst various protestant sectors a similar phenomenon, with a similar defence of hierarchical power amongst Big Eva. Southern Baptists … I’m also afraid our friend fp above seems very reluctant to admit the potential existence of abuse… Read more »
Ken B: “The sins of progressives in public schools, which are terrible, are again not the point.”
You know, Black Lives Matter makes the same lame excuse for why they won’t protest in front of abortion clinics. Apparently, a dozen or so unarmed black men — some of whom aren’t innocent — killed by cops every year is far more important than the hundreds of thousands of black babies — all of whom are innocent — murdered annually by their own mothers.
And in case you’re lost, my point isn’t about Black Lives Matter.
“that from it’s very beginning was a sinful wicked system that God never sanctioned.” I………. I’m sorry what? You’re suggesting that God never sanctioned a patriarchal system…… in the ancient world? Well that’s a new one. Ok, go ahead. What was God’s system in the ancient world? “judging the responses here by mostly men” Most of the commenters in general are men regardless of topic, and you make the job of rebutting you easier by pretending their gender effects the quality of their responses. “how you would respond to it. “ You don’t get to morally chastise people for how you… Read more »
I’m just sitting here like, “Really, no evidence?” It’s stunning the way some of y’all try to confuse the matter.
And, no, you certainly don’t have to talk to everyone personally to make a judgment call. That is ludicrous.
That’s why there is public reporting.
And, yes, definitely utilize your judgment based on the information provided.
“It’s stunning the way some of y’all try to confuse the matter.” I’ve tried to confused nothing. Am I simply uninformed? I read the entirety of the Vice article, which gave second hand accounting from a witness no one has the chance to ask questions, alongside some objectively poor analysis of CREC doctrine. Is there something else I’m missing? Simply stating that you’re stunned at the request for evidence is not answering the question. “And, no, you certainly don’t have to talk to everyone personally to make a judgment call. That is ludicrous.” That’s true. The point wasn’t that we… Read more »
The fact of the matter is this: many many men in the CREC from the top dog down continually say there is never any evidence that abuse is happening in our circles and the things we teach and the way we teach it certainly would never lead to abuse. Case after case is brought before your eyes and ears and you are like a broken record. Dismissed based on lack of evidence. Well, this is what I am convinced of ; there is simply no evidence that any woman is going to bring forth that would ever satisfy that continual… Read more »
Justin, you seem fair enough. If you reread the article you will see that the reporter did a good job acquiring evidence—court documents, emails, etc. I don’t know if you would do this but it wouldn’t be fair to assume she was lying about that evidence. Magazines can get into a heap of trouble for reporting falsehoods so they do take care to proof check information before publishing. The reporter took months to publish this one piece. And, how will one have clear, hard proof on a sexual abuse case? We don’t expect the abuse to be done in front… Read more »
Cassie, for over 20 years I have watched the actions in Moscow. The majority of scandal reporting is deliberately instigated by those who hate God and especially hate Wilson. Over the years, only one indivdual took the time to correct his story when it was false. The other Christian bloggers, commentors, various online magazine authors, editors, and publishers do not care to update their articles at all. I offered documents that show the other side of the story and which would discredit their articles. Only one individual cared enough to make a correction. More than 20 years. Only one. Vice… Read more »
I appreciate this detailed explanation of your priors. I think it makes a lot of sense, and shows more of the range of perspectives that someone can have, and why accusations can sound ridiculous.
Hello, Dave. I thank you for your comment but it seems very unreasonable. All of the stories are wrong? I’m sorry, Dave, no. I rather believe this is the story fed to you with very sincere faces and a slant against women. I have noticed women are held responsible for their husbands’ sins in the CREC. “Well, if you would do this (minor thing), he would not do that (atrocious thing), and you’ll see your marriage restored”, type thing. Please, tell me you see something theologically and emotionally wrong with this. So, no, I don’t believe you have your head… Read more »
Let me add my husband was brought in to the elders and told I needed to stop my Fb posts (critical of Wilson but largely about women’s roles in the church and being aware of spiritual abuse) or I would not be welcome and could not be a member of the church. Also, they told him “to lead his family” by disallowing my friendship with another Christian woman who was critical of the CREC and left the church, as well. When I would not do this according to conscience I was labeled an “unsubmissive wife”. I’m sure I would have… Read more »
This was in the church of the presiding minister of the CREC.
Providence Church of Lynchburg, VA.
Cassie, I do not cling to the inside of any of what has occurred in Moscow. Instead, I analyze and go to the facts before making a decision. I ask questions of involved individuals. I request information from the local authorities. I have the ability to actually look at the source court documents and know individuals involved in the problems. Wilson is not concerned with protecting his reputation or building an empire with a huge following. That thought originated decades ago in Moscow by some folks who hate Wilson for his stance against homosexuals. “I believe the city when they… Read more »
Dave, To be honest, it sounds like the Mayor is sick of your antics. Kinda like when my old pastor, when he lived in Moscow, helped plan a prank with Doug about topless feminists coming to speak at the U of I. Disgraceful. It’s a shame your church has a bad reputation in town. I don’t disagree with them. Im just sad for the testimony of Christ in that place. I did notice how not one word was mentioned about my testimony given, Dave. It was all, “Christ Church is great!” “We’re being persecuted!” While I just said I was… Read more »
Also Dave, no, I don’t see him pouring on more blessings. You just said you were targeted by the Mayor of your town. You just said you guys are under fire all of the time. Doug is being exposed and called out right now by VICE magazine. Catch that, VICE, is calling your boy out.
God makes a striking point, doesn’t he?
I hope you turn your hat around and consider some of those things in a different way.
Shucks, I switched up the Good Samaritan characters. Probably God’s way of humbling me because I was getting a little too fired up.
And, you were probably the nicest commenter on here. I’m sorry.
God bless you and your family, too, Dave.
Cassie, as I said, I do not have the facts on your situation and so I don’t comment on it. That’s all. Christ Church does not have a bad reputation in town. The internet stories would like you to think that. There is a small group of individuals who continue to attempt to start internet fires with the same tired, granite stones. The stones don’t burn and the result is that on a world wide basis, including the Palouse, Christians are returning to the fact that God is soveriegn and that His word, the Bible is authorative in today’s wordly… Read more »
Dave, It’s not just internet stories. I’m telling you I have experienced abuse, so have my friends, and the whole system is rotten from the bottom up. But, you keep saying, “It’s all lies from these mean people!” I’m just over here like, “Is that supposed to bulldoze my own personal testimony? If you say it enough am I supposed to forget my own experience?” To be honest, this psychological abuse is not uncommon to me. I experienced it with my old pastor. I have no idea what you are referring to with these “documents” that would discredit everything. Perhaps,… Read more »
What’s your last name, Dave? In case I’m in Moscow? Thanks.
Actually, nevermind on the name. Thanks for the offer.
If you looked back on the multitude of Dave’s posts over just the past year, you would get a picture of someone who presents himself as an expert in many disciplines, though he has never presented any credentials. I would take everything he writes with a grain of salt.
Thank you, Will. Definitely doing that now…
Thanks for standing up, brother! 💗✝️
Will, have you read all the applicable court documents at the Latah County Court house? All of them, not jsut the ones shown online.
Do you personally know the individuals involved?
Do you live in Moscow where you can observe the actual events and ask questions from those involved?
Or do you gather your choice tidbits from the internet and then send out oodles of tasty noodles to others with your false information?
Just what are your qualifications to make sport of what happens in Moscow and Christ Church?
I’ve read enough from multiple sources about the leader of the “Moscow Cult”. To be honest, most of my conclusions flow right from the tip of Wilson’s digital ink pen and his smash-mouth trash talk videos. So, you need to take your complaints up with Wilson. As I mentioned above, he’s weaponized his ministry. You reap what you sow. I thing that’s in the Bible.
Will, thank you for confirming you have no firsthand knowledge and that you rely on internet gossip to form your opinion rather than all the truthful information available at the Latah County courthouse.
Please put on your reading glasses. Here’s what I wrote:
To be honest, most of my conclusions flow right from the tip of Wilson’s digital ink pen and his smash-mouth trash talk videos.
You don’t consider Natalie Greenfield to have first hand knowledge of her own rape and Wilson’s pathetic mishandling of it? I hope you don’t have daughters or granddaughters.
I don’t understand your blind obedience to Wilson, Inc. Are you on his payroll or does he know some dark secret from your past?
If I am remembering correctly, Dave has alluded to knowing Pastor Wilson personally and the two of them going way back (40 years?).
“Laziness”?
If any monkeys were to fly, that would actually be pretty ambitious! ; – )
Actually it was pretty clever. Sad that being a lefty has made you immune to both humor and irony.
Simply calling something ‘predictable’ does not make it so.
Something being ‘predictable’ does not make it bad, or lazy.
Refusing to engage with the point being made is, however, lazy.
Ma’am, if a husband is truly loving his wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it…he will find it difficult.
Following Christ can be difficult…. for both for men and women.
So if Mark Galli is a former ‘evangelical’ who became a Roman Catholic, how does he have even a shred of credibility with anybody? I mean, “C’mon Man”!
I don’t see why not, depending on the subject. Rod Dreher has been, in order, Methodist, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox. Being one of those three myself, I don’t automatically find him unreliable on all religious subjects. He can be right on some things and quite wrong on others. Why would Galli be any different?
But you have to admit that Dreher is a little flaky. I mean, I like him ok, but constance isn’t his leading virtue.
Flakier than a pie crust!
Is it too late to talk about pie crust? I still have trouble with it!
It’s always good to talk about pie crust. I think that to get really good at making pie crust, you have to watch videos and practice until you get it right. But I don’t much like pie and nobody in my household did so I never got any better. I am told that a marble rolling pin and board are essential tools. And that you get a flakier crust with some apple cider vinegar. That hasn’t worked for me, but I like sipping the apple cider vinegar.
Pastor Wilson, you did not acknowledge Ken’s note that you passed on misinformation regarding the election audit. Nor have you done so most times that you passed on election misinformation. Do you not see how much that reduces your credibility on this issue?
And the “statistical anomalies” argument is ridiculous. Every election is a unique event, and ignoring changes in migration patterns, suggesting that Trump should have the same base as previous Republican candidates, or expecting a heavily mail-in election during a pandemic to involve the exact same voters as previous years is untenable.
Also, JPH’s claim about section 5.7.11 omits the key statement, “We identified no instances of these voters casting more than one ballot.” So those ballots were all valid votes. Even the “Cyber Ninjas” didn’t think that was a meaningful issue.
This is the level we’ve stooped to. Pastor Wilson claimed several weeks ago that the Arizona audit would give us the final verdict and we would know the winner for certain, when it didn’t give him the answer he was looking for all we get is more muddying of the waters.
Thank you, Jonathan. Those are good points. Honestly there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding among the Stop the Steal arguments that it’s hard to keep it all in view. I also followed up with Pastor Wilson about the statement put out by the president of the AZ Senate (who was the driving force in getting the Maricopa audit off the ground), where she makes the claim that despite some valid concerns that were raised by the audit, it ultimately reinforced her confidence that the results accurately represented the will of the voters in Maricopa. I definitely understand having a… Read more »
Ken, thanks for the interaction. To my knowledge, I have not relied on the Stop the Steal folks, and haven’t said anything about them one way or the other. I don’t even know where they are. I do agree that Sidney Powell failed to release the kraken, and have said so. In the meantime, what I have defended are the arguments I have advanced, and the anomalies really do look bad to me.
Pastor, With all due respect, what you need to do is reevaluate your priors. Before the election you told us that the only way Trump could lose is if Biden and the Dems cheated, thus neatly painting yourself into a corner. After the election you floated a number of Stop the Steal absurdities including counties with more votes than registered voters, various made up statistical anomalies, and the Antrim County hoax, and after being called on them you repeatedly noted that they were just examples of how the election *could* have been stolen. The real way you knew, you maintained,… Read more »
“ you told us that the only way Trump could lose is if Biden and the Dems cheated” Care to give a receipt on that? I just listened to some Wilson from last year on my hour long drive home, and nothing he said came anywhere even vaguely close to this much of a commitment. ” After the election you floated a number of Stop the Steal absurdities including counties with more votes than registered voters, various made up statistical anomalies, and the Antrim County hoax, and after being called on them you repeatedly noted that they were just examples of how… Read more »
Justin, I’m tempted tempted just refer you to everything with a politics tag from 2020, especially the piece “9 Miles of Bad Road.” But for a concise example see “7 Reasons to expect a Trumpslide” where he says: “That is, if Biden wins fair and square, which he can’t.” Doug is a very smart guy, he remembers the defenses he gave for election fraud being a thing. For a particularly egregious example, take a look at “Why Believing the Election was a Fraud can be Key to Your Future Prayer Life.” But the precise allegations he made are beside the… Read more »
Justin, you make a strong claim towards demo, he answered it, and then you disappeared without admitting that your claim was proven wrong. It seems you are acting much like Pastor Wilson is accused of.
Look, in spite of Trump’s collusion with Russia to influence the process, Biden is hands down the most popular president ever to be elected. Millions more votes than that lightweight, Obama. Never mind that Biden couldn’t fill a phone booth during his campaign (between naps). His popularity has only increased, now with chart-topping rap songs being written to his honor, and chants spontaneously breaking forth in events across the country. Whether dead or alive, if the election were held again today, everyone would vote just as they did before, and Biden would wipe the floor with his competition. Case closed.… Read more »
Are you afraid to engage Jonathan directly.
You see it too? Even when he’s “responded” to something I have called him out on, his response is to ignore the issue and change the subject.
That was annoying enough in the past on one-off issues (fabricating gun defense stats, refusing to acknowledge the reasons people were calling him out on race issues). But its become even more of an issue as he keeps publishing falsehoods on the election and the pandemic for over a year now.
I do see it. Like most bullies, when someone stands up to him with truth he slinks away. He seems to be afraid to honestly engage with Ms. Torgerson (except for the one denial) and Ms. Phillips.
Jonathan, multiple times you have stated that you are here to correct Wilson.
Pray tell us, exactly which ox or oxen of yours did Wilson gore.
Ladies and gentlemen, after a brief sabbatical, the Great Troll has returned! And bringing his lefty talking points with him! You really can’t get past this, can you?
I don’t know why we’d expect more from someone who supports people’s “right” to murder their children.
I post solid points backed up with evidence and directly relevant to the conversation.
“The conservative one” responds with an ad hominem lie and completely ignores the topic.
And he calls me the troll.
The problem Jonathan, is when you spend a few years aggressively distorting other people’s arguments and citing facts you expect other people to research on your behalf, people stop taking you seriously even when you have something to say.
You’re the internet debator who cried wolf.
Please show us where Jonathan has distorted other people’s arguments? He has gone to great ends citing the facts in his posts. Your inability to intelligently refute them with your own set of facts doesn’t speak well of you or of your intentions.
Notice the complete lack of back-up when he’s asked to provide evidence for his claim. When, ironically, making claims without evidence and distorting the arguments of others is exactly what he was accusing me of doing.
He’s way out of his depth.
I’ve never encountered a more obtuse, sadder, or angrier group of Christians. Well, the hate-filled Westboro Baptist group comes closest.
There are posters here your statement would certainly apply to Justin, but it strains credulity to claim that I’m among them. There’d be a strong argument that I work harder to lay out my facts here than almost anyone else, which is why I’m more often criticized for my posts being too long.
For just one example, what do you think of Katecho’s comment above?
I do miss the upvotes.
Its the only place on the internet where people would upvote me for being slightly too rude to someone making a stupid argument.
Which I suppose is why I shouldn’t be indulged with them.
Jonathan, multiple times you have stated that you are here to correct Wilson.
Pray tell us, exactly which ox or oxen of yours did Wilson gore.
I’m not certain anyone wants clashing symbols in our church–not P, nor Wilson, nor most others I can think of. The whole idea conjures up harsh, garish décor akin to a preschool playroom designed by an LSD addict.
Now, clashing cymbals, on the other hand, can be a beautiful thing…
https://youtu.be/bbpGkrViOcE
This is a pretty reasonable guide. “It’s like a dope chart”
I’m just now understanding this. You’re trying to tell your story but your comment wasn’t approved. This happened to me before, too. I was very surprised he allowed my comments this time around. My experience was a nightmare. Though, not as bad as done others I have heard. Keep telling your story. And, God bless you!!!
How very odd. It seems the grand conspiracy to oppress women was completely and totally successful when you tried to give impeachable testimony, but it has completely and totally failed to stop these shallow comments of vague accusation.
How marvelously convenient that they happened to mistakenly approve just these comments!
I honestly don’t even know what you’re saying besides your ungodly snarkiness. We have both suffered abuse and you mock.
Well, this is how women who report abuse are treated in the CREC. You want proof. Here it is.
I take back my comments about you seeming fair enough. I reread comments and realized shortly that’s not the type of man we were dealing here.
Hopefully, one day. Take care.
My snarkiness is because rather than being proof of abuse at CREC, its the opposite. If they were removing comments to make them look better, they would also remove the comments about them removing comments.
Why didn’t they?
My tone is mocking because I’m no longer convinced you’re an honest person making an accusation poorly.
“I take back my comments about you seeming fair enough. I reread comments and realized shortly that’s not the type of man we were dealing here.”
So much Christianing.
Actually, out of context, Elizabeth’s comments look odd.
Don’t they? …
And, I don’t know, Justin. My comments needed approval before and now they just post automatically.
A slip perhaps?
If you have read everything on these comment threads and still say they are poor accusations then I wash my hands of your opinion.
I’m fine with that.
Cassie: “We have both suffered abuse…”
Then you would have immediately empathized with the poor girl who was sodomized by an LGBTQ+ pervert and would have immediately condemned the Loudoun school district that tried to cover it up and had her father arrested.
But you didn’t.
Silence is violence, Cassie.
Why do you assume she knows of this evil? Why is deflection your go to response?
For Tim — Here’s an example of the kind of hooliganism that grows out of a church culture where kids are taught to sing: https://www.facebook.com/logosschoolmoscowidaho/videos/579803730113408/. ;-)