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Troubles Down Under

I’m not sure if you’ll see this but I desperately need some advice. I’m a 19-year-old student that currently lives in Melbourne, Australia and have recently been enjoying your ‘Blog and Mablog’ videos. The points about the lack of courageous Christian leadership in the world is no greater evident than in my country Australia where we have faced the most extreme lock down laws in the world that have spanned for over 190+days since this mayhem began.

In the entire country, not a single church pastor has rebelled against these lock down laws preferring to ”stay online” and neither have any politicians (bar maybe one or two) opposed the government tyranny. With this in mind, considering the complete lack of Christian leadership in my country, how should I find a church willing to boldly preach the word of God without shutting down? Must I move to the U.S to experience the true church (and true Christian leadership) or stay in Australia and stick up with the church of cowards? Thanks,

Jacob

Jacob, there are obviously many details that would have to go with this, and I may add a bit more in my replies to the other Aussie letters, but it seems that you have two options. One is to emigrate, and to find a place where you can worship. The other is to go underground. I don’t mean anything so large as trying to plant a regular church, the kind that can be seen from the curb. I mean illegal home churches. Sing, pray, bring a message (or read one aloud), and take the Lord’s Supper. Go underground.

Changing of the Guard: In refusing to cancel in person services, would you consider having “underground” church services at some point, or do you think that public worship services are the most faithful thing to do at this point? Is it good to go underground to avoid certain negative consequences, or are those consequences part of the point at this point? Thankful for your ministry,

Chadwick

Chadwick, yes, I would. And I put your letter here among the Aussies for that reason.

You’ve been kind enough to give counsel over email before. Thank you. I need more. I approached the elders of our church about their commitment to not follow lock down orders (as limited as they have been in Perth Australia) and shut down in-person worship. I appealed to them as a brother to be courageous and to plan better should the time come when the state called for another lock down. To their credit, they organised the congregation to gather in homes like Bible study groups rather than simply doing “zoom” church. This was better.

To the point though, they did not agree that they ought to resist lock down orders and the intern (who we now are called upon to vote in as an Associate Minister) expressed his disagreement with my position and call to courage.

They were all friendly enough but (without going into too much detail) basically did not agree with my position firstly about mask-mandates (fair enough) but secondly, and more importantly, my position about gathering in disobedience of the state’s mandate.

I’m churned up about it all and wonder if there are any courageous pastors and churches that you are aware of here in Perth Australia? Or maybe you all have room for one more refugee in Moscow Idaho?

Thank you for your courage and leadership throughout this scamdemic (both before and after).

Barry

Barry, thanks for your letter. We always have room for one more. But it seems to me that you do have something to work with—if your elders are okay with home groups, I would worship in home groups. At the same time, you should be praying for your elders because if the principle is not straight, those will be pressured to fold as well.

I would like to ask a question about your most recent post, “The Changing of the Guard”. But first since I’m a first time writer, I wanted to thank you for your ministry. If I can take a few seconds to be gushy—Your writing has blessed me tremendously since I found your books about a year ago. Several years ago I became a conservative after being a Christian and a Calvinist for about a decade. (I found PragerU one week and got cage stage red pilled— why didn’t anyone tell me this stuff???). Anyway, I was confused why almost everyone at my local Evangelical church was soft left, all of my favourite preachers and Christian artists were promoting CRT and were vehemently anti-Trump, without expressing one tenth of the concern over Obama, Hillary or Biden. It seemed the only alternative was idolising Trump, which other conservatives seemed to be doing. I liked those guys more but couldn’t get fully on board. But when I found your book Rules for Reformers it was exactly what I’d been looking for for years—solid Reformed and Biblical theology with a Biblical view of government and culture. Empires of Dirt also helped me a lot there. Since then, diving into the rest of your stuff and everything on the Canon App has been life-changing for me. It’s been light bulb moment after light bulb moment. I am completely indebted to you, and if I keep gushing I will get teary, so moving on.

So to my question. I’d like to ask a practical application of what you said at the end of your post, that “We should ask for all pastors to affirm that under no future circumstance will they cancel in-person worship services.” I live in Sydney, Australia and we are once again in a hard lock down due to a few hundred Rona cases a day. I have recently joined a wonderful Reformed Baptist church which is very faithful, except we aren’t meeting right now, in order to be obedient to the authorities. I have followed your arguments re shutdowns, I agree, and I would say my church elders agree with me on 90% of the issues too. They are eager to meet again. However, we are not meeting and I don’t know if we will until these shutdowns end.

After meditating on the quote above and the last few paragraphs of your post, I am wondering what your thoughts are on this situation. Were you just using hyperbole or do you really believe that Christians who share this conviction should make this issue the dividing line?

Thank you and God bless, I’m regularly praying for you and your family.

CD

CD, in line with what I have urged above, I would encourage you to start meeting underground. In your case, I would do it in a way that does not disrupt your fellowship with these good people. In other words, present your case to them, but don’t hector them. If they still don’t begin meeting, then start meeting in your basement, as an interlude, but not to start a new church. It is just to have church in a time when you need it. If they discipline you for that, then that could be the dividing line.

Thanks for your consistent and clear articulation of truth. It has been and continues to be immensely helpful. I am increasingly convinced that we need more faithful churches, not less in these days . . . more Bible, more Jesus, more Gospel. This is of course a statement of the obvious.

Do you think there is a particular strategy that Christians ought to be thinking through regarding church planting in these crazy times? What kinds of places should churches be considering as locations for new churches? Anywhere and everywhere? Or should there be an increased focus on certain kinds of places . . . states, cities, towns, etc. ?

Kyle

Kyle, you are not from Australia, but see above. What I am urging could be called church planting, but it is not church planting in the traditional sense. Some underground churches will be stop gap measures, and some will survive the lock down mania.

The American Shire

We just finished reading that chapter as a family! It was fantastic. My 8-y-o son was cheering and running around the entire time. What lovely synchronicity. As to Hobbits that have found their hidden reserve, have you ever looked at the story of the Battle of Athens (Tennessee, that is)?

While not a perfect parallel, it does show what happens when men who have found their hidden reserves can do when they find their home less free than when they left it.

Zack

Zack, thank you.

Fake Vaccine Papers

Would you consider writing on the lawfulness of providing fake vaccine papers and the situations in which this would be a biblical response and then cases where it might not? I hope I’m wrong, but it looks like this could be a real practical question in short order. I like the idea, but I also struggle with producing documentation that says you fell in line with their mandate. Thanks for considering.

John

John, thanks for the question. Given what they have done to the rule of law, I don’t have any ethical objections to fake passports and papers. But given that it presents a risk, you have to ask what you are risking it all for. In other words, I might use fake papers (and I might not, officer!) in order to preach in another state, but I wouldn’t use them to get on a plane to go to Disneyland.

The Sinfulness of Worry

I was recently watching your sermon titled “The Sinfulness of Worry”. While I found the message to be quite encouraging, I’ve had this nagging whisper of the enemy which has neutralized the effectiveness of these sermons in my life: “If we are so ‘safe’ under God’s care and have nothing to worry about, what about Jesus, all His disciples, the apostle Paul, early Christians, Watchman Nee, Corrie ten Boom’s father and sister and the list goes on?

Sincerely,

David

David, quite a reasonable question. And the answer is that God does not promise us freedom from suffering, but rather freedom from pointless suffering. He promises us that He will not abandon us in our afflictions, and that should be sufficient for us to rest in Him.

Afghanistan

Would you please consider doing a segment on this Politico article or at least it’s perspective? Most everything about it is skewed to me… The US gets blamed again, the reason the Afghan army quickly laid down arms, and much more. Thank you for considering it .

Mrs Pittman

Mrs. Pittman, I am sure I will be writing about Afghanistan soon. For the present I can say that the way the withdrawal was handled was atrocious. You can support us being out of Afghanistan, as I do, while recognizing that we had a solemn responsibility not to do it the way Biden did it.

Conversation with Bahnsen

In Galadriel and the Chimp you mentioned a conversation you once had with Dr. Greg Bahnsen. I was wondering 1) what was he like in person and 2) what do you think he would have accomplished/where would he be now if the Lord had seen fit to extend his life into 2021?

Thanks for all your work!

Joe

Joe, he was a gracious Christian gentleman, and his gifts and talents are sorely needed by us now. But that was not the Lord’s will, and so we should do what we can.

Correction

Re: My letter to the editor on Idols & Tyranny

I misstated the current COVID-19 survival rate as “currently has a case survival rate of 99.9998%.” The basis was not cases, but total population. So it should have read “currently has an overall survival rate of 99.9998%.” I apologize for the error.

Best regards,

JM

JM, thanks for the correction.

Homeschooling Mom

Thank you for taking the time to answer (many of) our questions! I am a stay-at-home mom of 4 little kids, ages 5 and under (including a newborn), with plans to home school. Private Christian school (the good kind, not the Jesus-as-ketchup kind) is a future possibility but not an option right now. I am very excited to educate our children, but am currently feeling the inadequacy of my own public school education. I think my experience was far better than most public school kids because of the presence of good books (Tolkien, Lewis, Bunyan, Augustine, ancient classics, Beowulf, etc) and other elements of high culture in our home.

I have a lot of catching up to do in the reading department. I have read a lot of Lewis, Pilgrim’s Progress, plenty of your typical “classic” reads like Austen and Bronte and Dickens, but not much of the ancient classics, church history, or great Christian works. My particular dilemma is that I am currently in what you refer to as the “sweaty eyeball” phase with four little children, as well as helping my husband start a business. I am a good manager of my time and a hard worker, and am reading and enjoying plenty of good stuff, but I just don’t have the mental wherewithal to tackle tough reads like Milton, Beowulf, Cicero, Quintillian, etc. I like hard physical and mental work, and love my current life situation, but after pouring myself into blanket forts, baking birthday cakes and bread, crocheting tractor blankets, and virtually interviewing candidates for hire in the evening, I am just spent mentally before I even make it to a book. I still end up lost if I try to plod little by little. Three lines into the Faerie Queene and I’m done.

My specific question is what reads you would recommend for someone in my situation? Are there any great works that you recommend as “highest priority” classic reads that would be more reasonable to tackle in the rip roaring chaos? Anything that might work well as an audiobook? Should I even worry about this right now?

Mallory

Mallory, quite honestly, it sounds to me like you are doing great, and I wouldn’t worry about any of that right now. The sweaty eyeballs phase really is a phase, and the books will wait for you.

Vaccination Blues

There are several healthcare pros I work with who are looking for a little help making some decisions about the vaccination.

On the one hand, it is clear the federal government has removed it’s brains and replaced them with squirrels crossing a busy side street. Those in the media demanding rationality to us holdouts just spent the last 18 months losing their minds, and experts demanding trust have squandered their credibility. For us bourgeois folk in the US, COVID is the latest thing in a long line of trumped up terrors that give us something to do. Existential threats in first world countries are nothing if not cures for ennui, not to mention political maneuvering. That power ain’t going to grab itself.

The hospital where I am an ER nurse is mandating the vaccine under threat of disciplinary action, which I was hoping would be loss of screen time. Turns out it is termination. The university where I am in my last year of a nurse practitioner master’s program is requiring it too. Being the sole income for my family (and I have my in-laws living with me too) the threat of termination is a heavy one. On the other hand, if there is going to be any vaccine mandating, one at a private hospital where there are patients with COVID sneezing in your eyeballs, seems fairly reasonable. I also don’t think the vaccine is unsafe, and is at least marginally effective at preventing infection, based solely on the studies thus far. 

But I want to continue to resist just because I reject the premises all this nonsense is based on—the elevation of safety to the highest ideal to which humanity can attain. Feel like maybe some of the colonists back in 1770 might have said to those dressed up in their Indian costumes, “Geez, it’s just a tax on tea! It’s not going to bankrupt you. Just pay it.” True, they could have paid it, but the point was not the amount of the tax but that the tax did not come from a legitimate authority. So I want to resist for the sake of principle.

However, being the sole income for my family (and I have my in-laws living with me too) the threat of termination makes me need to seriously consider if this is the hill I am dying on.  Anyway, I’ve been going back and forth and there are a few coworkers just on my unit that are in a similar position. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Tim

Tim, my advice to you would be to follow your conscience, and resist as long as you can—and maybe a little bit beyond that. Nationwide, this really is a game of chicken, and I want as many people as possible on our side playing that game.

Masschusetts

Greetings from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Your ministry and that of your various family members has blessed my wife and me tremendously. Thank you.

We are happy members of a PCA church, despite the fact that we land much further to the right on many issues. The teaching is edifying, the pastoring is faithful and the church is growing in maturity. We are also fortunate to be a part of an excellent homeschooling community. That said, we have begun to question the wisdom of living here in New England. Our children are not being sacrificed, nor are our principles, but everything is an uphill battle. This battle has only intensified over the last year and a half. So much energy is expended to live as we ought and we often wonder if it would be wiser to live in a different part of the country. We are confident that we were planted here by God, and there has been tremendous fruit and blessing throughout our time in MA. How do we know when/if this season is coming to a close, or if we are to not grow weary of doing good here over the long haul?

Stealth PCA Reader

SPCAR, what is happening to you is this. It sounds like you are able to function where you are without compromise, but that the work of not compromising is becoming a tad tedious, and you are starting to wonder if it is worth it. As Christ is Lord of your circumstances, pray that you would stay as long as you want to stay, and that God would open a door as soon as you want to go.

An Old Expression

I have been on a Canon-Press kick as of late, devouring anything I can read or listen to that you produce, so thank you for that.

In Mere Christendom you wrote: “My point here is that the approved voices—however much they know about how—do not know anything about where or why, and as John Bunyan might say, there’s an end on it.”

I am failing to find the connection to Bunyan. Could you clarify what you meant by that? Thanks.

Gary

Gary, thanks, and apologies for not being more clear. “There’s an end on it” was a seventeenth-century expression that meant “that’s all, folks.” You can find it in Bunyan.

The Boise Area

I just wanted to take a quick minute to thank you for your faithfulness to God’s word and to the work of Christ during a hostile time. Your courage is a bright light of encouragement to me. My hope is that emails like this are so common that they are an encouraging background noise, but my fear is that those encouraged by the true biblical leadership of yourself and a handful of others are dwindling. So I figured I’d write you and let God use it as He wills. I am a freshly medically retired army ranger from 3/75 ranger regiment out of Fort Benning, GA. I couldn’t thank God more for allowing me to be injured to the point that he ordained me to be retired when He did, I have some solid brothers that are still there and it has become a dangerous place for anybody with a true biblical worldview. I know that God has given me a unique background to better reach our veteran community in desperate need of Christ, and any other means that He desires to use me.

My main purpose in writing you was to let you know that God is using you and your ministry mightily. The other reason is that I am moving my family to the Boise area in a few months (we would hope to be out closer your way in a handful of years or so). I was wondering if you had any connection with any churches down that way?

Thank you for your time, and once again for being a faithful brother. God bless you, your family, and the work of Christ through you.

Nate

Nate, thank you for the kind words. And check out King’s Congregation in the Boise area.

Husbands and Vaccines

I have not encountered such a scenario, but I was just wondering how you think it should play out between a husband and a wife where the husband does not want his wife to take the vaccine for either health, political, or spiritual reasons, and the wife wants to get the vaccine. Does Jesus limit the man’s authority from placing such a prohibition upon his wife? If not, then the wife would be in sin if she goes against her husband’s prohibition to get the vaccine, right?

Not trying to trap anybody here, I am genuinely interested in better understanding the nature of the relationship between a husband and wife according to Scripture.

As always, thanks for all you do.

Rope

Rope, I believe that a godly husband would respect his wife’s conscience, and not ask her to go against her conscience. But if he is not that kind of husband, and he insists that she not get it, or insists that she get it, contrary to her conviction, I believe she should surrender the consequences to God, and submit to her husband. I also believe that the elders should have a visit with him beforehand.

Vaccine Info

RE: Are We Still Talking About Vaccines? Yes.

The Personhood Alliance, a coalition of organizations that take an explicitly biblical view of personhood and ethics, has done extensive work on vaccine ethics that I think you’ll find not only edifying but a resource to share.

RIcardo

Ricardo, thank you.

On June 22,2021 I downloaded the VAERS data, and then again August 10.

For 2021 only: as of June 22 Deaths 2309, as of August 10 Deaths 5909

That is a 156% increase in under 50 days!!

VAERS captures ONLY a fraction of adverse reactions, and there are many other severe reactions—clearly death is the big one!

Blair

Blair, thank you.

Study Bible Enthusiasm

I’d like to express my great enthusiasm for the person’s suggestion in this week’s letters for a Reformed study Bible for Canon Press to release. Not sure how or if something like that can be pulled off, but if you all think it’s worthwhile, a crowdfund might be a good way to get the resources for it. I think a lot of people would participate.

Sam

Sam, okay. Noted and thank you.

Objectivity of the Covenant

I am working through my views on stuff regarding Church, Eschatology, baptism. I have moved from Dispensational, to Premil, yet I value very much both Amil and Post mil positions. I heard about a view of New Covenant members who are also non elect, a presbyterian view, and not a Baptist view, so I heard. The blood of the covenant (Heb. 9), applies to the non elect New Covenant members in some way. I am wondering how this differs from a view as follows: Christ’s Oblation applies to all mankind not just the elect,

Christ’s intercession applies only to the elect

John Owen argued against this in his work, The Death of Death in eth Death of Christ. I bring this up only because I have been called 4 point Calvinist because I hold this view some what. Not unlimited atonement, but unlimited oblation. How is the Presbyterian view of the blood for the covenant being applied to the non elect different than my view of limited oblation?

Any one can answer this please, I do not know Presbyterians to ask, and my brothers who are dispensational already think I am sketchy enough as it is for my eschatological views lately. Thank you for your time.

Raymond

Raymond, this is only a problem if the blood of Christ only accomplished one thing, and that thing was salvation for the elect. But apostates trample underfoot the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified (Heb. 10:29). There must therefore be a species of sanctification (a setting apart) which is not salvific. I identify them as non-elect members of the covenant, or, put more simply, members of the visible church who are not members of the invisible church.

Adopted Children and Elder Quals

Thank you for your clear thinking on the many issues you engage. The one I’m writing about is qualification for Elders, and particularly that of having faithful children.

How do you see that applying to children who have been adopted, especially those of some maturity and out of difficult circumstances? How do covenant promises apply or not apply here? Should an elder be disqualified for the egregious sin of a member of his household, even if he’s only had influence for a short time?

Thank you for your ministry,

N

N, I do not believe that an elder who has adopted older children should have the same expectations applied to him as we would to a man who was bringing up his own children. Nor would I apply those expectations to a godly couple who were involved in the gracious work of foster care.

You Will Be Able to Quickly Surmise Why I Put This Letter Last

“aaaaaasshole.” I happened to be within earshot when that guy on the scooter called you an asshole a few weeks ago. It was not remotely a ‘scream,’ as you’ve attempted to characterize it, but rather the tried and true, old school way of calling out a blowhard charlatan in public. The date of the piece you wrote [“20% of a wave”] leaves no question that you were quite well-triggered on that beautiful summer day when a noble Moscow resident called you an asshole—with ample reason—right there on Main Street.

I’m writing because you’re wrong about those who have been and will yet be compelled to express disapproval and even hatred for you in the public realm. You feebly try to assert—because it’s the only possible way to bolster your narrative—that these are the very same people who held “No Hate” signs at some random event you attended a quarter of a century ago. They’re not the same people, because times have changed in “our little town” as a result of the choices you’ve been making. By now, those calling you out know how and whom to hate just as well as you and your wingnut associates. And they’re not the ones reliant on cherry-picking dusty bits of ancient fantasy (aka, the “Bible”) to justify their disdainful treatment of others—no, that’s all you. You always have “others” that you’re trying to demonize, and you desperately want these “others” to be sanctimonious and thus hypocritical. So you do your best—which isn’t much—to paint them that way. But the real sanctimoniousness emanates from you, because by now it’s consumed your entire being.

You disingenuously claim that one of your goals is to have people demonstrate good will toward you in public, yet what you write is transparently intended to instigate. You goad people into some sort of middle-school war of words, with the fictitious wrath of your “god” as the presumptive punishment. You know that people hate you, because you want certain people to hate you—you actively invite their hatred by heaping smug scorn on those you consider to be less than fully human (people of color, liberals, feminists, “homos,” Democrats, Moscow City government, etc.).

You’re far from being the innocent hayseed poking his head through the canvas at the county fair, and getting hit with an errant wet sponge. In reality, you’re the carnival sideshow barker, extracting tithings from your yokels for a prurient peek at the targets of your hatred. Your knuckle-dragging klan is the obvious enemy of the rest of us because you make yourselves the enemy every day—with you holding the bugle as the self-appointed field general. Your pasty, puffy rhetoric invites hatred, and it’s crystal clear that this is fully intentional. Some of your rubes are perhaps decent people, forced again and again to brush off your more extreme drivel as being somehow irrelevant to your fundamental character, requiring an enormous and tiresome benefit of the doubt. But the doubt is bubbling to the surface and it won’t be ignored much longer.

That you are a self-loathing closet-case becomes more apparent with each bit of writing you do, because everything from your keyboard is merely projection. What you hate within yourself—what tortures you to no end, acutely aware that your own “hardened hypocrisy” has become your “central virtue”—is exactly what you’re driven to call out as being damnable or at least disqualifying in others, no different than the multitude of nearly identical hack ‘evangelists’ and ‘conservative’ politicians before you. Considering your fevered proclamations regarding cross-dressing and the like, it’s surely just a matter of time before you’re exposed ‘in flagrante delicto,’ and it’ll be deliciously entertaining when your “smartly dressed [students] speaking Latin on Main Street” are titillated into employing this very phrase to describe their freshly disgraced dear leader. Perhaps your inevitable exposure as a fraud will be deemed newsworthy (on a regional scale at any rate), but we here in Moscow will merely sigh and say, “yes, of course, we knew this was coming.”

We who have no taste for your backwash-laced Kool-Aid, that is. But what about those who do have a taste for it? How must it feel for these families you call “immigrants” to uproot and move to a weird little university town on the Palouse, only to learn that their cult leader is roundly and rightfully scorned by those aware of his utter awfulness as a person in this modern world? To find he is so despised that random passersby in public—right there on Main Street!—visibly revel in the opportunity to call him an “aaaaasshole”? You can try to twist it any number of ways in an effort to save face, to redirect mockery at “others,” but enough of your idolaters will wonder what on earth they’ve gotten themselves into. Certainly enough to make a difference. They’ll think twice when the collection plate comes around or the next dead-eyed, mouth-breathing cultist runs for a position on the City Council. Because now they live surrounded by people who feel the duty to call you an “aaaaasshole” to your face, and we’re only too eager to share what we all know about you.

The real irony is that the more people you succeed in bringing to Moscow, the more interaction they’ll have with me, and the guy on the scooter, and the ever-growing majority of Muscovites who see through your convoluted charade and joyfully anticipate your inevitable downfall. Your underlings will liberate themselves when they unavoidably come to realize they’ve been following a blathering hypocrite—an “aaaasshole”—of the first order.

AO

AO, in a day when so many resort to scurrilous name-calling as a substitute for argument, I can only commend you for the cogency of your reasoning, and have no choice but to sue for peace. We have met our match.

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Gray
Gray
2 years ago

Just one question: How much does AO charge you for rent?

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago

AO nailed Douglas Wilson, the sociopathic hate monger. Doug’s legacy will be that he singlehandedly drove thousands away from Jesus and His good news of God’s love.

Dianne Allen
Dianne Allen
2 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

You do have a certain artistic instinct for “hitting the nail on the head” thus “pushing somebody’s button.” Seems I recall a lady who was handy with a literal hammer, “hitting close to home.” “Most blessed among women” was she. What I can’t quite fathom is that when she “struck a nerve,” the land rested forty years; when you strike a nerve….there is no rest for the “weary” or is that “wicked.”

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Your party of hate is doing something much worse. You soil the name of Jesus with your false teaching. You have had many public scandals of your own making. Who knows how many we don’t know about. At least one person who knew is no longer with us. Rest assured one day your sins will find you out. Where were you when you sent parishioners to be arrested for disregarding the mask ordinance during your “Psalm Singing”? Where were you when your son and grandchildren were arrested for defacing public property? Tucked in bed? It appears you subscribe to the… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Martha & Mary
Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

What scandals?
Are you seriously implying Doug sinned because he wasn’t there when his parishioners were ILLEGALLY arrested? Are you saying he was supposed to be out putting up the stickers himself, and not doing so was a sin? And when he used that word, it was completely in appropriate context. Do you know who he called that? It was true.

Also, in what way is he a party of Hate? In that he stands up for scriptural teachings? You sound much more angry than I’ve ever heard him…

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago

I know you can read. Maybe you’re one of his willfully obtuse parishioners?

He sends others out to get their hands dirty.

Seek and you will find just what kind of “pastor” he is. Bet you won’t because you’re scared of you’ll find. That’s a shame.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

If you actually believe all that, all I can do is sigh and pray you find Christ.

You have still provided no examples of any “scandal” and as part of his denomination I know his teachings through and through. They are biblical and he lives according to them.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

Are you suggesting that Doug exerts a David Koresh-like authority over his hapless parishioners? That he can mutter “Who will rid me of this troublesome priest” and his minions will all don their disguises and sharpen their knives? That anyone who wanted no part of this action dared not say, “I think that’s a silly idea, and besides, that’s the night I devote to petting my cats”? It would be more reasonable, and more courteous, for you to assume that even people of whom you disapprove have moral agency.

Blair
Blair
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

Many good folks in Moscow and around the nation are thankful for Doug. ‘Martha & Mary” 2 highly esteemed names, you should consider changing your handle.

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago
Reply to  Blair

No need for Blair to worry, I got their permission to use their names. They actually agree with me.

Blair
Blair
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

Doug, you must be right on target. Else terms like “sociopathic hate monger” wouldn’t surface. Reading comments from folks like “M&M” above is like listening to someone who drops the f-bomb every other word. They are disturbed at something, they just can’t articulate it . Their reasoning has decided to sit this one out.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago

Even Jonathan may have to take issue with that last letter :-D

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago

I mean, I tired of it quickly and didn’t even get through it. It’s the kind of opposition letter that gets through easily cause he knows it makes his opponents look bad, as opposed to reasoned arguments that he might have more difficultly answering. Did find it ironic though that Doug Wilson’s response was to chide him for name-calling, when Wilson so often not only participates in name-calling but brags about the tactic.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, did your home church follow the government order to stop worship, or did they gather to sing and worship as commanded by scripture?

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Home church? His views sound more like this group. Instead of calling out baby murderers or drag queens/pre-K perverts teaching kids about sex (millstones anyone?), he shames Christians who don’t share his views and authoritarian stances on a virus with an extremely high survivability rate. Instead of calling out Marxist dictators who have killed millions and outlawed Christianity, he holds similar warped views of history and current events of those who defend them. You know, the ones who burn down cities and call for re-education camps Instead of denouncing crooked ruling elite who gained wealth unrighteously and never earned a… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Jonathan says he is a Christian brother, so please pray with me.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I completely missed where the perverts, marxist dictators, and Pelosi were posting here. You can be quite assured that I do all I can in the arenas (quite different from this one) where their supporters encourage such actions.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yet you’ve not yet explained why you hang around this blog, with which you constantly find problems and complain about. Obviously you are free to do so, but my question is why do you?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago

I’ve explained that in great detail on multiple occasions. As Jill suggests below, is there any point at which y’all will tire of making it personal and simply discuss the issue at hand instead?

Look at this comment section. Look at the last comment section. Count how many times a poster included a personal attack against me or chose to ignore the issue at hand in order to discuss me as a person instead. Do so many people really care more about me than about the topics Pastor Wilson brought up?

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Jonathan clearly doesn’t need me to defend him but I am troubled by accusations for which, in years of reading this blog, I have seen no evidence. Neither here nor in personal correspondence have I ever seen evidence that Jonathan supports abortion or drag queen performances for preschoolers or that he is sympathetic to murderous dictators or that he looks kindly on crooked politicians of either party. But how are these accusations even relevant? Is there some rule of which I am unaware that in order to be taken seriously in speaking about the virus, I must first condemn a… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

If you haven’t seen Jonathan act in bad faith, double down more than a drunken blackjack player when proven wrong or show dizzying displays of political bias, well, maybe you’re as biased as he is. This is someone who literally makes half the comments on long threads, hijacks posts with completely unrelated comments and acts as if this is his personal platform. It’s beyond rude. Then he goes whining about personal attacks when called out. It’s a childish game he’s done repeatedly for years. The Apostle Paul didn’t like busybodies in his day and I can’t imagine what he’d think… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Good words, Jill. Unfortunately the conversation around here frequently delvolves into demands that you prove your standing relative to the Schmittian friend-enemy distinction. Or into an elaborate game of whataboutism (the left focused on friend-enemy first!). It is tiresome;why do we need a mutual support group rather than a forum for discussing ideas? I don’t want blog/mablog comments to be a safe space.

Also, there are a lot of complaints about Jonathan hijacking com-sections, but the hijacking is typically done by those deriding him or demanding proofs of purity or loyalty.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Coming from someone who frequently calls other liars and has also called others things like “idiot” and of course “racist,” this is yet another head-spinning display of hypocrisy.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I suppose that your last two comments were not meant to be ironic?

Zeph
Zeph
2 years ago

VAERS stands for Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System. It is part of the Health and Human Services database. It is where adverse reactions to all vaccines are reported.

Mallory, I would suggest audio books. You can listen while you work and your kids will get some of it, too.

ron
ron
2 years ago

Even God anticipated the 21st century trolls, be they anonymous keyboard people, government officials or random haters on the street (- or all of the above?):

Matthew 5:10-12Matthew 10:22Luke 21:17LUKE 6:22-23

TedR
TedR
2 years ago

At least AO used the word “titillated”. It’s a good word. I can commend him for that much, but I think that may be it.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 years ago
Reply to  TedR

How dare you assume to know AO’s gender? It may be as fluid as his/her/its pretentious writing style. Of course we know how this works. First, it’s okay to cuss out those you hate publicly. Then you start throwing things and threaten to assault them (as college leftists did for years when conservative speakers came to campus). Then you start giving modest beatdowns when you have a big enough gang (Antifa light)…and maybe pepper spray them as they did to those at the recent prayer rally in Portland. Then you start giving much more serious beatings like they did multiple… Read more »

J
J
2 years ago

At least AO is a decent writer. His letter clearly has some flare and eloquence.

But, alas, assertions that Dr. D is a “cult leader” doesn’t have much ground. A Cult? Shouldn’t we have a discussion about orthodoxy before accusations of heresy come up? The perennial question here will always be: Says who?

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago
Reply to  J

A cult? Says who? Most of Moscow, ID.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

But what is the orthodoxy he breaks? They say so, but who cares what they say? Most of Moscow ain’t christians.

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago

You aren’t a Christian. Doug’s not. See how easy that is?

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

What are you trying to prove? You are just name calling. It is fine when a christian offends an unbeliever, or all the unbelievers. If Moscow doesn’t like him, that’s fine. And it makes perfect sense biblically. You still refuse to present any evidence for your case, you are just trolling and repeating that he’s not a christian.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago

These shocking disclosures are not news to any of the regulars on this board. They were exhaustively litigated here for days and weeks at a time. So far from being secret, they are summarized in the Controversy Library which you can find under the About tab in the masthead. I was probably not alone in concluding that fairly judging the merits of the respective parties is beyond my power, that these events are none of my business, and that I would rather sit through back to back screenings of “Shark Boy and Lava Girl” than read one more word about… Read more »

Andrew Lohr
2 years ago

Uh, Dreher mentions two instances of plagiarism (or careless use without citation), in both of which Canon Press withdrew the book from circulation. Well, they goofed twice (apparently by accident), and corrected it twice. I think they’ve bought better source-checking software since. That doesn’t sound too bad to me.

Jon
Jon
2 years ago

I haven’t laughed as hard as I just did reading AO’s letter in a long time. Thanks for sharing! I wonder how you mentioning that someone screamed at you got back to him. What were the odds of that getting back to the very person who yelled at you? That is really funny.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jon
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago

The VAERS system makes no judgment over whether vaccination was a contributing cause – if someone dies within a week or two (or sometimes even longer) after vaccination, they can be reported to the system whether or not the vaccine was involved. Considering that the USA experienced about 8000 deaths/day even pre-covid, a total of 6000 deaths after 357 million vaccination doses is approximately 1/20th the number of Americans who would be expected to die within 2 weeks of vaccination just by random chance.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You can weed out a lot of deaths as being irrelevant – people who were clearly on their deathbeds would probably not get the vaccine, people who die in accidents and homicide/suicide likely aren’t getting reported to VAERS. But even if you weeded out 90% of deaths that way, you’d still have far more than enough occurring just by random chance (unexpected heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism, and cases of covid where infection came before or just after vaccination) to easily account for those reports. When there’s no casual association between the vaccine and death AND the total number of… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hong Kong Street performer February 17th, 2017. Where are the masks? Oh, everyone’s outside.

HongKong_12Feb17_2.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Gentle readers, please forgive my poor posting of photos.

Last edited 2 years ago by Dave
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Here is a clearer post of that picture.

HongKong_12Feb17_3.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Chinese waiting to board a plane January, 2018. Where are the masks.

ChineseAirport_21Jan18_2.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Here is a clearer post of that picture.

ChineseAirport_21Jan18_3.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Chinese executive transport bus, January 2018. Where are the masks?

HongKongTransport_21Jan18_2.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Hong Kong Executive transport, January 2018.

HongKongTransport_21Jan18_3.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gentle readers, Jonathan is a Christian brother who frequently exaggerates the dangers of SARS CoV-2 to further his arguments. This week it’s reporting and such. Those are the minor details which prevent us from looking at the major points. Last week, he was pushing masks, when it is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer of last year and this year, that cloth or paper masks don’t work for the general population. Last week, Jonathan maintained that Asians wear masks during the flu season. A few do, but the majority, especially in China don’t wear masks at all. Jonathan… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Again, I already pointed out to you (even before you ever posted these pictures) that flu season in Hong Kong doesn’t even start until February and that those who wear masks mostly do it on public transport, waiting rooms, and other crowded indoor locations, not outside, but at this point my statements appear irrelevant to your arguments.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, the Hong Kong Center For Health Protection disagrees with you. They state that the seasonal influenza is from January to March/April and again in July and August. Your link last week was from Michael Coston’s blog, a guy living in central Florida. So, the pictures I posted were, in fact, smack dab in the normal seasonal flu season in Hong Kong including the ones inside the airport and inside the bus and on the streets. And there were no masks, inside or out. You really push the limits of a discussion for a Christian brother. Masks don’t work in… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Inside a Hong Kong mall, August 29th, 2017

HongKongMall_29Aug17.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

The Golden Arches in the same mall, August 29, 2017. Still no masks.

HongKongMall_2_29Aug17.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Just for fun, here is my breakfast cooked by a street vendor in Shanghai. I really enjoyed working in China as it was so crazy it was fun. An added bonus was that the food was very tasty. February 6th, 2017

ShanghaiStreetBreakfast_24Sep16.jpg
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

The other mall photos were at odd hours, this is how the malls I visited in Hong Kong usually looked — packed.

HongKongMallEscalator_Sep17.jpg
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I’m still perplexed that Dave believes because his pictures exist, that this picture doesn’t. Here is an actual serious flu season (not just before or after one) with people in a risk situation (public transport).

Unless you think the photo is fake, the conversation is over. Post 100 pictures of Asian people not wearing masks, and it doesn’t change the fact that they clearly DID wear masks to prevent disease in some situations. That is undeniable.
comment image

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Andrew Lohr
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

A.D. 2017? 2018? Pre-covid, eh?

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Lohr

Andrew, that was the entire point. Prior to government mandates, during seasonal flu, some Chinese wore masks, but the vast majority did not.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Your original claim was that masks were only worn in 3 Asian countries and even there only by a few people. You claimed that masks weren’t to stop disease but were just “being polite”. You posted personal pictures, the vast majority of which weren’t even during that year’s flu season.

You then falsely claimed that Hong Kong folk only wore masks when they were mandated, when in fact 99% of the population was wearing masks despite no mandate. You also claimed that Covid was a scam and was not a lethal virus because there are still deer around.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, literally nothing you have posted proves “masks don’t work” (serious discussions on that have already been carried out elsewhere the last two weeks) nor “Asians don’t wear masks”. You’re not even beginning to satisfy the basic conditions for a logical argument. No one who has any knowledge or experience of Asia disputes that many Asian folk wear masks on public transport and in certain crowded indoor locations during flu season. Even you basically admitted it earlier in the conversation (using excuses such as “they’re just being polite”), but now you’ve become obsessed with posting completely irrelevant pictures while dismissing… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

And yet another – anyone who tries to deny that Hong Kong residents are very comfortable with using face masks to prevent disease is denying reality:

At the individual level, people in Hong Kong have responded quickly as soon as the first case of COVID-19 was confirmed on January 23, 2020. Population surveys in Hong Kong indicated that the percentage of respondents who wore face masks in public increased significantly within 3 months from 74.5% in January 2020 to 98.8% in March 2020.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-021-11346-y

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, as the flu season is different every year, it is true that you can describe it’s start/end in different ways. So if you want to be specific, you have to see what happened that year. The summer flu season in 2017 started in mid-May and decreased notably by early August, and was completely over in late August. Thus, once again, your August 29 pictures are completely irrelevant to the conversation.

https://today.mims.com/when-is-flu-season-in-hong-kong

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

And just to drive home the point, the people of Hong Kong have a remarkably different perspective on this manner than yourself:

In our opinion, mass masking in the community is one of the key measures that controls transmission during the outbreak in Hong Kong and China. Moreover, it would be futile to convince individuals who experienced the SARS or swine flu outbreaks, not to wear face masks for protection.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30100-0/fulltext

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

And again, no number of random tourist photos from 2017 can deny reality: Hong Kong, it seemed, was doomed.But almost as soon as the outbreak first began in the city, millions of residents started wearing masks in public. One local told the Los Angeles Times that the government didn’t have to say anything before 99 percent of the population put them on.Experts now say widespread mask usage appears to be a major reason, perhaps even the primary one, why the city hasn’t been devastated by the disease.“If not for universal masking once we depart from our home every day, plus hand hygiene, Hong… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, above you posted “Do so many people really care more about me than about the topics Pastor Wilson brought up?” Other posters pound your arguments and you take the fact that your arguments are neither scripturally nor logically sound. You cry ad hominem, deflect or change the range of discussion. The lack of scriptural maturity is obvious when you say Wilson or others obeying scripture are wrong, but can’t back up your argument with solid scripture. Then you run behind massive amounts of typing. It is not ad hominem to point out your error. The masking issue is a… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

You just ignored everything I posted from Hong Kong itself that took down your argument in order to deflect and deflect again. I suggest you take Demo’s words to heart.

The people of Hong Kong masked up immediately when Covid struck, in order to prevent disease, because they were used to masking up to prevent disease. This is not in question and the people of Hong Kong themselves have affirmed it repeatedly. Your random tourist photos don’t change reality.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I didn’t ignore what you posted at all. I pointed out the holes in your argument that can’t hold water. This isn’t about SARS CoV-2 masking. That was mandated by the Chinese government and was not optional. Jonathan, you just moved the goal posts again by pushing masks during the SARS. Stop your quibbling. Just stop. It was about everyday folks wearing a mask before the SARS. You ignored January as a seasonal flu month. I pointed out that Hong Kong Protective listed January. You listed specific months from previous seasonal flu periods and tried to weasel around the Hong… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

No Dave, they did not wear the masks because it was mandated, you’re proving that you completely ignored everything I posted.

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/18/21262273/coronavirus-hong-kong-masks-deaths-new-york

Hong Kong reached almost universal masking BEFORE the Hong Kong government even supported mask wearing, much less mandated it, and the Hong Kong people themselves said it was due to their experience wearing masks in SARS and flu outbreaks.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, are you lying or just stretching the truth like silly putty?   “Hong Kong reached almost universal masking BEFORE the Hong Kong government even supported mask wearing, much less mandated it, and the Hong Kong people themselves said it was due to their experience wearing masks in SARS and flu outbreaks.” Jonathan above    “But almost as soon as the outbreak first began in the city, millions of residents started wearing masks in public. One local told the Los Angeles Times that the government didn’t have to say anything before 99 percent of the population put them on.” Vox… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Note that you first claimed they masked because the government mandated it. That was 100% false and you haven’t even acknowledged how bad that error was. Moreover it shows how little you actually know about the situation in Hong Kong. As for your new comment Dave, I can’t even follow your argument or where you think I am lying or “changing the goalposts”. What Jonathan typed to bolster his mask argument is about the SARS CoV-2 not about seasonal flu. Is that a lie? Is what a lie? I was repeating almost exactly the direct quote from the Lancelet article… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I know you can’t follow an argument. Let’s take this carefully point by point.

What part of this article deals with seasonal flu masking?

The article is about the 1968 Hong Kong flu, SARS, SARS CoV-2 and the Hong Kong protests NOT seasonal flu.

Copy and paste the portions of the article dealing only with seasonal flu in Hong Kong.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

The reference to swine flu (which I already copy-pasted in the previous comment) is from the 2009 flu season, not 1968. And previously I already demonstrated to you highly prevalent mask use during the 2014 flu season, which you hand-waved away with “being polite”. Not to mention that you trying to ignore every piece of evidence that masks stop disease by refusing anything that isn’t “seasonal flu” is just silly. Your deflections are getting more and more ridiculous.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, help me out. Cut and paste your exact quote from this article, the one you posted:

https://www.vox.com/2020/5/18/21262273/coronavirus-hong-kong-masks-deaths-new-york

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Wrong article Dave, I posted this one first and you keep ignoring it and moving the goalposts.

In our opinion, mass masking in the community is one of the key measures that controls transmission during the outbreak in Hong Kong and China. Moreover, it would be futile to convince individuals who experienced the SARS or swine flu outbreaks, not to wear face masks for protection.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30100-0/fulltext

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“A reality check on the use of face masks during the COVID-19 outbreak in Hong Kong” The title of the article Jonathan, the entire article concerns masking during SARS CoV-2. When you quote from an article that measured Hong Kong pedestrians during February 2020, you are not referencing the seasonal flu. Jonathan, using an article about the SARS to make a point about masking during seasonal flu is dishonest. You are a Christian brother and you need to stop quibbling and using quotes in a dishonest manner. Stop being contentious and tell the truth in your posts. If you disagree,… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, the authors explicitly say, right in that quote right there, that the reason Hong Kong folk masked during Covid (voluntarily, not mandated like you falsely claimed) is due to their experience masking during SARS and flu. Why do you keep ignoring that?

I already posted pictures of them masking during flu. I posted articles about them masking during flu. I proved to you that 99% of Hong Kong residents masked for Covid WITHOUT any government mandate. Why do you keep ignoring all of that?

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I am neither ignoring your articles nor your typed words. I am having difficulty understanding how an article on SARS relates to seasonal flu.

Why you do you say that 99% of Hong Kong residents who masked without orders as the SARS CoV-2 arrived is for seasonal flu? It is not, the article clearly states it was for the SARS.

That is not using the article truthfully. Help me out here.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I posted multiple articles Dave. One of those articles clearly said:

“In our opinion, mass masking in the community is one of the key measures that controls transmission during the outbreak in Hong Kong and China. Moreover, it would be futile to convince individuals who experienced the SARS or swine flu outbreaks, not to wear face masks for protection.”

Both SARS and flu. I don’t know why you think this attempt at hair-splitting helps you. You claimed they didn’t wear masks for illness. You were wrong. You claimed they wore for Covid because they were mandated. You were wrong.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Also, my home church didn’t fold up, they continued services every week throughout the pandemic although in a limited fashion. We’ll add that to the long list of falsehoods you espouse. You too often assume you know much more than you do.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Did that limited fashion prohibit the unmasked from sitting next to their fellow Christians?

Did all those worshiping sit six feet apart with their masks on?

Where is limited worship in scripture?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Families sat together, when indoors the attendees masked and socially distanced from other families, when outdoors the seating arrangements were normal.

And it’s in the same place in Scripture as talking in microphones and using sanitized baptismal water.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, what you are saying is that you gave into the government demands and did not open the windows as Daniel did. You bowed down to the 60 cubit statute at the sound of the horn, flute, and lyre.

Thank you for finally answering a simple question.

As ministers of the new covenant, we are to worship with unveiled faces. We are to sing together. We are to take communion with our fellow Christians to remember Christ’s death until He returns. We are not supposed to follow government rules limiting worship in any manner.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

So do you refuse to follow government building standards or allow government building and fire inspections on your church, because the government should never be allowed to set constraints on the house of worship?

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you are moving the goal posts again. Stick to the subject.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, pointing out an analogous situation to prove that your pharisaical rules are arbitrary is not “moving the goalposts”.

“Moving the goalposts” is ignoring every time you have a claim proven wrong and instead trying to divert to a new claim. In other words, exactly what you are doing right now by even being on this subject.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, that is false. STOP IT!

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gentle Readers, if you see this, please note the distinction between worshiping with all the saints together, commanded by scripture, but ignored by the majority of American Christian churches who worshiped at the alter of government last year and this year, and building codes, also commanded by scripture. Remember Daniel and the other saints who did not bow down to worship at the false gods of their governments. Remember our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan being murdered because they are Christians. Worship is warfare. However, when we are talking about worship, changing the subject to building codes is moving the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

From Doug Wilson: At Christ Church, we welcome anybody, masked or unmasked. No one is turned away over this issue. We have repeatedly instructed our people not to give the stink eye to anybody. Don’t assume that a mask-wearer is a coward, and don’t assume that a non-mask-wearer is a devil-may-care stunt parishioner. Church officers may wear a mask, and church officers may go without.  also from Doug Wilson: If the elders of the church believe the pandemic is far more serious than I do, there are many ways they could still accommodate those believers who can’t stomach the idea of… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Let’s count up the falsehoods: They don’t mask – I show numerous examples of masking They only mask in China/Japan – I show a half-dozen other examples of Asian countries where seasonal masking occurs They only mask in Hong Kong because it was mandated – except the Hong Kong government never mandated They only mask because they’re protestors – It is ridiculous to suggest that a portion of young people protesting results in 99% masking rates in Hong Kong They only mask for SARS, Covid-19, and the 1968 flu – both false and strange, because it’s that still trying to… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I am waiting for your posting of the exact quote from the article you linked to. Jonathan, I worked in the large interior cities of China, the coastal cities and Hong Kong. You know that they don’t mask during normal seasonal flu and I know they don’t mask during the normal seasonal flu. You posted news article photos that are refuted by real time photos of real, everyday Chinese living their daily lives during the seasonal flu. Where are your photos of Chinese wearing masks during seasonal flu periods? Yes, there is a difference between the Chinese living in… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I already posted the exact quote (plus other articles earlier) AND the pictures. And I also proved that your photos weren’t indoors nor were they during that year’s flu season. You’re running in circles and it’s tiresome.

In our opinion, mass masking in the community is one of the key measures that controls transmission during the outbreak in Hong Kong and China. Moreover, it would be futile to convince individuals who experienced the SARS or swine flu outbreaks, not to wear face masks for protection.

comment image

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, that is another news article photo that does not concern seasonal flu — the topic of our posts.

Where are your pictures of folks all masked up during seasonal flu? My photos showed that the majority were not masked during seasonal flu periods.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, that photo IS from the seasonal flu in 2014. And I already posted numerous others in previous threads. And the quote EXPLICITLY states that the people of Hong Kong have experience masking from the flu.

Your pictures proved nothing because all of them were outdoors, most weren’t even during flu season, and pointing out some people weren’t masking in one random picture in no way shows that everyone wasn’t.

Yet another article about masks and flu in Hong Kong:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/03/face.mask.flu/index.html

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Your pictures proved nothing because all of them were outdoors, most weren’t even during flu season, and pointing out some people weren’t masking in one random picture in no way shows that everyone wasn’t.”

Jonathan, that isn’t true. That is called a fib or a lie.

Look at my photos again. They are not all outdoors. When I posted the seasonal flu seasons as per Hong Kong Health, you moved to the actual flu dates.

Jonathan, I posted photos of everyday life in China during seasonal flu periods. That is not one random picture.

Stop lying. Right now. Stop it!

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

And another here. Why are they called “flu masks” if they’re not for wearing during the flu?

https://www.alamy.com/china-hong-kong-girls-wearing-flu-masks-image227094813.html

And this one from 2018:
comment image?q=x_3,y_224,h_2389,w_4248,c_crop/h_720,w_1280

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, where are your personal photos? Why are you afraid to post them?

Alamy photos and news photos are frequently posed and are not always realistic.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

And of course there’s differences between Chinese in China and those living in Vancouver. But you think those living in Vancouver learned to mask during disease outbreaks from….Canadians?

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Before COVID, Asians in Vancouver were notorious for wearing masks from fall to late spring. It became especially widespread after the SARS outbreak in 2003 and really never stopped–possibly because so many fly home to China several times a year. Of all Canadians, they found it easiest to adapt to mask mandates and have reportedly not abandoned them even though they are no longer compulsory.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Thanks Jill. I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone could insinuate this isn’t the case. A lot of Asian folk mask during respiratory disease outbreaks and have been doing so for a long time.

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Gentle Readers, that’s Vancouver, Canada — not Hong Kong or mainland China.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Don’t fall for the scam that is being pushed on us again.”
This is helpful to understand what we’re going through. Things are really bad in parts of Australia now–very police state-ish. And almost all of the “Christians” are going right along with the agenda.
MASS PSYCHOSIS – How an Entire Population Becomes MENTALLY ILL – YouTube

Dave
Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Cherrera

C, here is a photo in a Chinese mall with Christmas decorations. They understand the gifting at Christmas, but not the gift of Christ. I really enjoyed working in China.

Take heart as God raised the wicked leaders for a day of wrath. God knows that every nation has the blood of huge sins on it’s hands. Pray that God will have mercy on His children during this time. Raise your specific prayers and others will pray for you.

ChineseMall_07Dec17_2.jpg
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Once again, Dave seems unaware that the flu season did not come until well after Christmas. It arrives in January some years but often not until February.

Blair
Blair
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, it is estimated that about 5% of adverse reactions are reported – irrespective of the vaccine type. The database contained only adverse reactions from Jan 2021 to August 2021. Out of about 400k reported reactions from all types of vaccines administered, about 6000 deaths specific to Covid vaccines were reported. Keep in mind the VAERs data is voluntary reporting. So 6000 Covid vaccine related dead out of 400k reported of all types of reactions. There are also high numbers of other severe reactions related to Covid vaccines. And if we consider VAERs captures about 5% then it is reasonable… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Blair

What source says only 5% of vaccine deaths are reported?

Since VAERS reporting is voluntary, any random unrelated death can be reported to VAERS so long as it happened within a few weeks of the vaccine. As I already demonstrated, the # of random deaths that should be expected in the two weeks after 357 million shots would be far far higher than 6000, so going by deaths alone without investigation of cause, there is zero evidence that vaccines are leading to deaths.

Last edited 2 years ago by Jonathan
Blair
Blair
2 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, the “V” in VAERs stands for vaccine, so those reporting (DR’s, nurses) see a connection. The 5% estimate is a CDC disclosure regarding the database coverage. It is a crude tool to some degree. So lets say the rate of reporting is as high as 20% of adverse reactions, voluntarily reported, that would mean a vaccine/death relationship occurring for 30,000. Not sure why the time frame you use is 2 weeks – many experts are suggesting the danger from the vaccines lies well outside 2 weeks and could peak anywhere from 6 – 12 months….but since it is an… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Blair

Doctors and nurses do report possible adverse effects to VAERS. Doctors are required to report clinically significant events within a certain time period of any vaccination whether or not they think the event is the result of a vaccine. But patients themselves and their families are also free to file reports. The VAERS website cautions people against taking the data as proof that any (not just COVID) vaccine caused a particular adverse reaction: “A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Jill Smith
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Blair

Blair, you can’t just take the reporting rate for adverse reactions and apply that rate to deaths. It goes without saying that people tend to take greater notice of death than they do of lesser “adverse reactions”.

And no, it is ridiculous to claim that the danger of these vaccines peaks at 6-12 months, the mRNA is gone from your body within a few days.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 years ago
Reply to  Blair

I also don’t understand the basis via which you “assume a good percentage of those Dr’s saw a connection”. As Jill points out, doctors are required to report all clinically significant events that occur within a certain time frame after vaccination whether or not they believe there to be a connection. As I pointed out already, just random chance after 350 million vaccine shots would involve thousands of people randomly having their death coincide. Also, any non-doctor can report to VAERS.

Jake
Jake
2 years ago

Brother Doug, I thought I could let you know that the Lord has taught me quite a bit about keeping my cool and being outwardly (and inwardly) joyful and winsome to adorn the Gospel.
Praying for you as I think of you brother.
Many cheers

Sarah
Sarah
2 years ago

I’m reading “City of God” right now and finding that so much of what Augustine said in the 400s could be said now. For a lot of years, we’ve heard of various people groups being abused by Christians–namely gay people, but really any demographic has some example of abuses in church or by individual Christians. And for a long time now, I thought, ‘well, okay, there are bad apples on every bunch’ and explained things to myself in that way. I’m starting to think now that what is really happening is that there are a lot of Romans out there… Read more »

Last edited 2 years ago by Sarah
Sarah
Sarah
2 years ago

Mallory, it’s good work you’re doing with your littles! I have a 5 year old, a 16 year old and a 20 year old, and we homeschooled all the way (it wasn’t always pretty, but we have some things we can be satisfied with), so my advice is to just stay ahead of the kids. Your self-education is important, and keeping a habit of reading is as well, but as Pastor Doug said, the books will wait for you. Make sure the stories you’re reading to the children are quality; don’t let people tell you that comic books or American… Read more »

Zeph
Zeph
2 years ago
Reply to  Sarah

You would be better served to watch non fiction documentaries about comics, than read most of them. There are a couple of WW2 era superhero radio stories that are useful for showing kids first hand historical resources of how the war was explained to kids of that era and to show the stereotypes of both Japanese and Germans in America. In 1942, just before the big lockup of Japanese Americans, was Superman vs. Lita the Leopard woman. It is on you tube. It is a spy story.

Last edited 2 years ago by Zeph
Mrs. Marc Otto
2 years ago
Reply to  Sarah

For Malory, I am in the process of running seven children through the homeschool book mill, and I’ve never read anything. ;) If that makes you feel better. However, I made great use of classic book lists. I said aside time every week to work on library holds, usually while I was waiting for the kids at chess club. (Designated time helps!) Our library keeps a tab of how much your books would cost if you had to buy them. One year we checked out $34,000 worth of books. So let’s just say, I kept them pouring in. At that… Read more »

Patrick
Patrick
2 years ago

Haven’t had a good laugh like that in a long time, thanks AO. What a magnificent screed! Three observations: the first is that repetition is key, and I see more than one mention in there about Doug importing too many savage immigrants in to flood the poor, decent, expletive-shouting noble scooter-mounted Muscovites. And that’s a shame. And also apparently quite well-triggering in and of itself. The second is that I have to wholeheartedly disagree that “City government” officials belong in the list of people who are NOT less than fully human. Has this individual never been informed that there are… Read more »

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

Patrick, you are an insightful man. God bless you.

Patrick
Patrick
2 years ago

Pastor Doug – one request. Please withdraw your suit for peace with AO. I hold onto hope that there will be a rematch in next week’s letters

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 years ago
Reply to  Patrick

A lively prose style covers a multitude of sins, at least here on earth. You may be shaking your head but you keep on reading.

California Girl
California Girl
2 years ago

For AO – in a letter to those living in Corinth Paul wrote: “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.  Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased… Read more »

Martha & Mary
Martha & Mary
2 years ago

Please don’t conflate Paul’s words with Doug Wilson’s preaching. They are polar opposites.

Jonathan (the conservative one)
Jonathan (the conservative one)
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

Ah, but in what way? :) You’ve proven no point. You are simply a troll, like AO.

Blair
Blair
2 years ago
Reply to  Martha & Mary

Say the wise and prudent M&M

My Portion Forever
My Portion Forever
2 years ago

Raymond, I am not a Presbyterian, but I went to a Presbyterian school, and so I will share my thoughts. I haven’t fully decided where I stand on Pastor Wilson’s view of the non-elect belonging to the new covenant, but I do feel pretty certain that Christ’s death secured benefits for all mankind and indeed all creation. I believe these benefits for the non-elect include God’s beneficence and mercy insofar as he gives temporal blessings instead of what we all deserve, and the opportunity to repent even though it is not taken advantage of. And certainly the non-elect that live… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
2 years ago

Not Raymond, but first of all, thanks for a welcome change of subject.

There are always non-believers within the visible circle of the church, sometimes dishonest, sometimes ignorant, but why not just view the apostate of Hebrews 10:29 as…apostate? That seems like a more natural reading than “There must therefore be a species of sanctification (a setting apart) which is not salvific.”


Oh, I’m being a little disingenuous with my question, yes, but when our explanation relies on “There must be” we might want to consider that it might mean our presuppostion is incongruent with the text.

demosthenese1d
demosthenese1d
2 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

JohnM/MPF, I don’t think we necessarily need a metaphysical category for of covenant member but non-elect. But, in my opinion we do nees to realize the following teo things and let them inform our fellowship: 1. There are thise within the church whi receive the sacraments and the marks od the covenant, who are not regenerate. 2. For our purposes, we cannot see a mans heart, only his fruit. We should treat those who receive the marks of the covenant as brothers in Christ, unless their fruit makes it REALLY obvious that they are unregenerate. This can fail in two… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
2 years ago
Reply to  demosthenese1d

Demo, I agree that we don’t need  a metaphysical category for covenant member but non-elect, but then I do not make a distinction between being in the covenant and being a believer, nor think that parentage, or baptism without belief, places one in the covenant. I would agree with #1. under things we need to realize, probably using slightly different terminology if I were saying it. I partly agree with #2., except it is a bit of a misconception that we cannot see a man’s heart. Seeing his fruit is seeing his heart. Hearing his words – out of the… Read more »

Downes
2 years ago

Checkout http://www.kingscovenant.org for an example of a faithful Australian reformed evangelical church which refuses to let the state dictate how we worship.