Letters From the Jewish Quarter

Sharing Options
Show Outline with Links

Well, Mostly From the Jewish Quarter

Regarding, Antisemitism as a False Flag Operation, it immediately brought to mind what I tend to see frequently on Gab. I’m really troubled by the antisemitism from conservatives and some Christians. These are the same folks that are rightly concerned about racism directed at whites, but can’t see their own bias against Jews. I’m glad I’m not the only one that finds this trend concerning. Thanks for breaking it down for us.

Brent

Brent, yes. That is one of the things I have noticed on Gab also. But, I hasten to add, that is what you are going to find in a place that allows for actual free speech. If someone says something objectionable there, we should object to it—which is different than trying to cancel them. In the face of that kind of thing, we should simply exercise our free speech rights also—in providing a response. That is what this post was intended to do—and I posted it on Gab.

Re: Antisemitism as A False Flag

Pastor Doug, you are a wiser man than most, and do well to break the modern traps down into their individual components using scriptural categories and labels. Your treatment of “racism” was particularly fine.

But you fired wide on this one. The rising tide of “antisemitism” today has nothing to do with envy. It has everything to do with the Internet making it extremely easy to read the surnames of the people behind the weaponized-envy-driven schemes that have made this modern civilization we see dissolving before us what it is today. You mentioned several of them in your article: communism, BLM, feminism, etc. We could add abortion, accessible pornography, high status for promiscuity and sodomy, dispensationalism, and six million more. Just pick a social edifice that has lead twentieth century Christians away from orthodoxy and Google its most energetic patrons.

Today’s antisemite doesn’t envy the Jew’s wealth or intelligence. He acknowledges the Jew’s contributions to Western Civilization. Wikipedia is bringing the antisemitism of American Christians up to the levels of old Europe, and not a moment too soon.

I would like to throw out a hypothesis that might make a more robust treatment of the phenomenon: “Jewishness” is a religion, not a race or an ethnicity. We have two thousand years of good data that shows, almost without exception, that the (ethnically Jewish) grandchildren of spiritual Jews who bow the knee to Christ have TOTALLY LOST their Jewish identity in their Christian identity. Your family’s example can go right on top of that pile.

God bless

Jimmy

Jimmy, thanks for the letter. I agree with your last paragraph, at least if we give it three or four generations. But my co-grandfather, who is a Jew who has trusted in Christ, still has all of his Jewishness running on all eight cylinders. As for your second point, I have been a pastor for many years and think I can recognize envy—even when it tries to cloak itself in reasonable points. Two men can object to a rich man’s ostentatious display, and both be correct, but in one of them there is that telltale crackle. And as to your first point, I would argue that it is the fallacy of affirming the consequent. I fully grant that when you research the data base of dirty deeds, you will find a lot of Jewish names there. But the same thing happens if you research the data base of violin virtuosos, chess masters, Nobel prize winners, inventors, and so on. This was my argument. The point goes right to the heart of the issue—I grant that bad Jews are bad.

All three buildings were wired with explosives, it was a Mossad operation.

https://archive.org/details/911IsraelAndCoincidences You already know about the USS Liberty, but the 9/11 documents also make it clear what happened.

Dancing Israeli’s FBI document

https://i.imgur.com/R8LQJfw.jpg

Van with mural

https://imgur.com/8hJVeHv

Again, I’m open to forgiveness, but we are SICK AND TIRED OF BEING LIED TO AND BEING TREATED AS CONSPIRACY THEORISTS WHEN THERE IS HARD EVIDENCE AND THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL PLANNING ON HARMING US, AND WE HAVE TO PRETEND ALL OF THIS ISN’T HAPPENING.

I DON’T HATE ANYONE, I BEG THEM TO STOP DOING THIS. I WANT THEM TO KNOW JESUS. I’VE BEEN A WRECK FROM LEARNING ALL THIS THE PAST 6 MONTHS. OUR FAMILIES ARE TERRIFIED AND NO PASTORS SEEM TO EVEN KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON.

John

John, every true Christian wants evil men to repent and to turn to Christ, and we should resist and fight them until such time as they do. But fear and despair are not effective in providing us with the courage and wisdom we need. In addition they make us vulnerable to concocted stories that just aren’t true. The combination we must pray for is courage and wisdom together.

“I am not sure how this came about, but a number of the algorithm gremlins have somehow decided that I am a fitting target for various forms of what might be called right wing rage spam. As a result, on a daily basis, multiple times a day, I am cordially invited to see Senator So-and-so drop a BOMB on AOC, or to watch as an angry mom OBLITERATES a school board somewhere, or to click on something that will enable me to observe a Texas sheriff WIPE THE FLOOR with some ding dong at CNN. It has to be acknowledged that a lot of people on the right appear to like hating.”

I’m worried that this trend has something to do with DISRN being shut down and grafted into NTB (Not The Bee) entirely. Where DISRN was a site that summarized leftist news outlets in a more professional manner, NTB is becoming the gossip tabloid of the right (with its own right-wing social media echo chamber for its subscribers to boot).

Full disclosure: I was banned from NTB’s social media platform partially for going after this right-wing outrage (specifically for saying “there is a right-wing cancel culture” and sharing screen shots of members who were digging through my old tweets for dirt), but I think it’s mainstream and obvious enough to be a good example of it despite my history with it.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah, thanks for writing. So far my experience with Not the Bee has been fine, but I do see them starting to lean in the click bait direction.

I like your approach to the “Anti-Semitism” issue. I have been wrestling through how to think rightly about the “Jewish question” and your post has been helpful. Since you give the opportunity for engagement, I do have a couple thoughts and then a question. One of the landmines that muddles the conversation is how to deal with anti-Jewish theology approach.

I’ve noticed that Christian apologists freely attribute all kinds of bad fruit to atheism, Hinduism, or Islam and they claim that the characteristics of various bad fruits can be particular to different forms of unbelief. For instance, identifying polygamy and the abuse of women, as in some way a fruit of Islam. However, most of these apologists will not attribute any particular bad fruit to the outworking of modern Jewish theology. I am not familiar with all of modern Jewish theology, but I have heard people, like Dr. E Michael Jones, make the case that a subversive and revolutionary spirit (as his book is calls it) is basically an outworking of modern Jewish theology. Do you think that there are any merit to that claim?

Joshua

Joshua, two things. I have read a number of E. Michael Jones’ books, and have profited greatly from them. I recently had a good discussion with him on Man Rampant. But, glancing in the other direction, I used to get his magazine Culture Wars, but eventually got tired of a Jew on every cover. As to the point of your question, I do believe that theology comes out your fingertips, and this is no less true for Jews as for anyone else. So I believe that among atheistic Jews, there is a destructive and revolutionary death cult spirit, but among observant Jews the problems would be more in line with what you find in every form of Unitarianism.

I’ve been Reformed, thanks to RC Sproul, since about 1995, and I’ve been a Christian since 1992. And almost as long, I’ve been involved in Jewish missions or the greater Messianic Jewish community.

I really appreciated your article on anti-Semitism. I had one thing in mind about you being a supecessionist.

Now, most in the Messianic Jewish world absolutely hate this at worst and treat it with suspicion at best. They associate it with anti-Semitism.

Needless to say, I’ve been forced to mull this topic over for that very reason. There are a number of Messianic Jews who lean Reformed. Many of them balk at this point though. Some of it is a Dispy background. Some of it is the history of anti-Semitism.

So I wanted to send you a link I though did a good job. It’s from a PCA Jewish ministry in Philadelphia (the city happens to have a long history of Reformed outreach to Jews).

The basic idea, using the British Empire as an analogy, is that you have an expansion of God’s kingdom. If England is the base of the Empire, Israel is the base of God’s kingdom. Now, most of the natural subjects may be in rebellion to the Crown. But there’s something more going on than just they’ve been replaced.

I think if I continue I’ll butcher the analogy so I’ll stop here. But I think it’s worth considering the article and I think it’s a good corrective to the Replacement folks, while not falling into the errors of a Dispensational approach.

I think some Replacement theology is an overreaction to Dispensationalism to be honest, although I’m not how doctrinaire you are here. You may be akin to a soft-cessationist.

Anyway, God bless.

Geoff

Geoff, my position may be an odd amalgam. I believe that the olive tree of Romans 11 is the covenant of Israel, and that unbelieving Jews have been cut out of it, and are stacked in bundles alongside the orchard. God is currently grafting wild olive branches into the tree, and they are flourishing there. But because the gifts and call of God are irrevocable, I do believe that Jews are going to be grafted back into the tree, and they will really take to it. They will not function as a separated people of God, but rather will be grafted back into Christ. So as a consequence, I also believe that ethnic Israel will remain ethnically intact until that time.

‘Antisemitism as a False Flag Operation’ was …uncharacteristically poorly-argued, to say the least. I daresay you’d be unimpressed if a Catholic argued against Martin Luther in such a manner, pointing to his bathroom-humor caricatures of the Pope & Crew, and said it was proof that he was just a Bavarian hick taken with envy of Rome, and offered no further actual engagement with Luther or any other Protestants. (Amusingly, I recall Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn—usually well worth reading—making almost exactly that argument. His stinker fared no better than yours.)

You owe it to your readers, and indeed, to God, to do better. You could start by actually interacting with the respectables among the other side. I’ll serve one up: here’s G.K. Chesterton on ‘anti-Semitism’ in America (and in context on Henry Ford in particular):

Now the point is that this new American Anti-Semitism springs from experience and nothing but experience. There is no prejudice for it to spring from. Or rather the prejudice is all the other way. All the traditions of that democracy, and very creditable traditions too, are in favour of toleration and a sort of idealistic indifference. The sympathies in which these nineteenth-century people were reared were all against Front-de-Bœuf and in favour of Rebecca. They inherited a prejudice against Anti-Semitism; a prejudice of Anti-Anti-Semitism. These people of the plains have found the Jewish problem exactly as they might have struck oil; because it is there, and not even because they were looking for it.

Chesterton—who, let us note, most assuredly was not a Jew-hater, and more than once in print took his fellow Europeans to task for their flights of actual irrational hostility towards Jews—seems to have noticed something that you obstinately refuse to see: that a whole lot of Jews behave in particular, stereotypical ways inimical to Christian society, and whenever any are called out on it, collectively treat this as an attack on all Jews instead of behaving as good citizens and reprimanding their own. They did this in the New World the same as they did in the Old World, repaying hospitality with predation. Noticing this, then, is not a sign of one’s own sinfulness, but a sign that one’s faculties of pattern recognition aren’t totally hosed.

Was Chesterton on to something, or was he too just some envious little brat on the internet?

You’re also unjustifiably dismissive of why that pattern might exist. I can’t fathom why you refuse to so much as admit the possibility that defining a religion and religious society in explicit terms of rejecting Christ—not ignorance of Him, but ‘your so-called Christ is a bastard fraud, now in hell, boiling in excrement, and no one may believe him and be accepted as one of us’, might have some small smidgen of consequences when it’s mixed with Christian society.

No, Doug, it isn’t envy; it’s pattern recognition and a fact that has, on its face, quite a bit of power to explain the pattern. Noticing the problem doesn’t mean you’re in favor of gas chambers. But if we’re right, your preaching a stubborn refusal to see the problem cannot help but get in the way of building the Christian culture you want.

Buford

Buford, what you describe as a stubborn refusal to see Jews acting badly is actually something I acknowledged in various ways throughout the post. I acknowledge that when Jews are wicked, their behavior is wicked, and destructive. This is true of Jews who are given over to the consequences of their unbelief. It is not true of Jews in Christ, and it is not true of Jews who are living in a way that is restrained by common grace. It is not a DNA problem, in other words. It is a cultural problem, and until Jewish culture submits to Christ it will continue to have this Jekyll and Hyde problem.

I’m your biggest fan, but your post on the JQ was lacking engagement in the actual charges being levied by the new anti-semites. And Ben Shapiro? He has posted several tweets outright mocking Jesus. Jewish or not, he’s not on our side.

Amanda

Hi, Amanda. I was responding to an antisemitism that I have actually seen, a kind with sophomoric argumentation. If the new antisemitism has responsible spokesmen, I have not run into them yet. And I believe Ben Shapiro needs to repent and trust in Christ. When it comes to basic conservative policy, he is on our side. When it comes to sustainable conservatism, I grant that he is not, and will not be until he sees the heart of the issue.

Antisemitism as a False Flag Operation

I have a friend who recently got caught up in some bad kinist thinking, and this post nails it. Their pride and envy blind them so that they can’t see their pride and envy. Not good.. Anyway, thank you dearly Pastor Wilson, for this post and all your work.

Note: Credit to the great Gary DeMar, who is a master of the details, I always spot this one now—lions don’t lie with lambs in the Bible. I’m sure they will, but the wolf gets first dibs. :)

Caspian

Caspian, on the lion and lamb thing . . . okay, fine. I was misled by the Mossad.

“and because God wants to glorify His name by preserving them as an intact people so that He can bring them back to the olive tree en masse (Rom. 11:24-25).”

Why, how dispy of you ;)

Guymon

Guymon, I don’t have time to look up the details, but the first theologian to predict Israel’s return to the land was a postmill guy in the 17th century. His name was Jonathan Edwards, but he was not the famous one. For the Puritans, the linchpin of world evangelization was the Conversion of the Jews. I would recommend Iain Murray’s book, The Puritan Hope.

Thank you so much for your wisdom and your unflinching willingness to tackle controversial issues as they arise. I too have noted a distressing rise in anti-semitic sentiment on the right and even within certain Christian circles. In the main, I see their logic flowing as follows “the Jews are highly successful, disproportionately so, and that success MUST BE because of (insert malevolent conspiracy theory here).”

When I see this in Christian circles, particularly in covenantal circles, it concerns me because it seems to indicate a lack of understanding of how the Law is objectively the best course of action. That is, following the principles of the Law is objectively the best thing you could do for yourself, your wife and children, your business, your church and your country, AND its the best thing you could do along all of those lines, now, next week, next year, and into eternity future.

Therefore, obeying the law leads to certain objective covenant blessings, non-salvific of course, but still very real. And so we have an excellent explanation for why the Jews are a high-performance people. To the extent that they follow the Law they receive blessings. This is no longer unique to the Jewish people, but in Christ EVERYONE has access to covenantal blessings, including the Jews.

This objective understanding of the Law seems to me to be a foundational to any kind of optimistic eschatology. I’m somewhat confused on why we don’t see Christian leaders making this point, not only to refute antisemitic nonsense, but as part of a general, “of COURSE we should expect obedience (even partial limited obedience) to the Law to have this effect.”

I will note that it is far from clear that Jews are actually “disproportionately successful” compared to other high IQ family groups But even if there are things that IQ cannot explain, it seems to me to be clear that Jewish success is intimately tied to the generational effects of Jewish faithfulness to the Law, which is GOOD NEWS for Christians who in Christ have the right to participate in those blessings.

So in conclusion, I’m sure that you will address the general problem of right-wing antisemitism with your usual wit and verve. But if I’m correct in my understanding that the law has got to be objective in order for the Christian story to end victoriously, I would love to see your take on that as well. Additionally, if (as has happened several times to me) there is a pre-existing theological term for the “objectivity of the law” I would greatly appreciate knowing that.

Gregory

Gregory, yes, I agree fully. External conformity to the law brings external blessings. But that cannot be sustained for long apart from submission to the heart of the law, the end of the law, which is Christ.

Okay, a Few Other Topics . . .

The Nephilim, for Instance

Regarding “The Nephalim, Hades, and Other Oddments”, thanks for the article. I’ve found myself going back and forth over time on whether the Nephilim should be understood as men or angels. I think you argued well that the latter interpretation suits best the references in the New Testament to the event in the Old Testament. It also helped me realize that one of the motivating forces for the prior interpretation is the modern desire to read the Bible naturalistically, or at least as naturalistically as possible. I’ve always appreciated your knack for exposing the anti-supernatural assumptions we often inherit, wittingly or not, from the world.

With that said, I did want to clarify one claim you made. In discussing 1 Peter 3:18-20, you indicated that the word used to describe Jesus’ proclamation to the spirits in prison was “not the word for preaching the Gospel”. But unless I’m missing something, it is. The word is a form of κηρήσσω, which indeed can mean simply to proclaim or announce, but is also, I think, the most commonly used word in the NT for preaching the Gospel (e.g., Paul instructing Timothy to “preach”/κήρυξον the word in and out of season in 2 Tim 4:2, or Jesus “preaching”/κυρύσσων the Gospel in Matt 4:23). Although your interpretation seems appropriate, and appeals to me for conforming better to what I’ve always been taught about salvation only being offered to humans prior to death, it seems to me that the language of this passage alone does not limit us to reading ἐκήρυξεν as “proclaimed” as opposed to “preached”.

Since I may have misunderstood, could you either indicate which word(s) you had in mind that refers only to preaching the Gospel in contrast to κηρύσσειν, or else what other linguistic features of this passage (or perhaps Peter’s letters generally) ought to lead us to limit the meaning of κηρύσσειν here as you have done? It seems to me the only alternatives are to say this limitation is set by other passages of Scripture which explicitly teach that disobedient spirits cannot or will not be given a chance to repent (and I’d be happy to know where you’d point), or at least to say this passage does not specify one way or the other. Again, not saying your conclusion was wrong, but skeptical that the language used here demands it.

Sincerely,

Jonathan

Jonathan, you are right about the verb kerusso—it can mean preaching the gospel. But my point was that it is not euangelio, which has to mean preaching the gospel. I think we can determine the meaning in this passage as “herald” or “announce” because of the broader context. I take it together with 2 Pet. 2:4, where the disobedient are “reserved for judgment.”

Thank you for your faithful ministry. Your teaching has blessed my family and I more than I could ever express. “Your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Cor. 15:58).

My question is in response to “The Nephilim, Hades, and other Oddments”. You state, “No, it is not necessary to jettison what we have learned through modern cosmology in order accept and believe the biblical teaching on this subject.” I agree.

I’m a Pastor of a small church, and have several members who are deep into the flat earth conspiracy. I’m wondering if you have any advice about how to approach this subject in the church? I am concerned by the lack of discernment this demonstrates but not sure on the most loving way to address it, or even if it ought to be addressed at all. The situation is complicated also because the media, as of late, uses the word “conspiracy theory” for basically anything they don’t like, which seems to only embolden those who hold genuine conspiracy theories.

If you have any wisdom or advice on the subject I’d love to hear it. Thanks again for your faithful ministry.

Bryan

Bryan, I would work to keep any of these folks out of leadership positions. In addition, I would look for opportunities to encourage them to not be “evangelistic” with what they are studying, and put a damper on it that way. And then I would start praying for opportunities to pastor them with regard to whatever the real issues are, which will more likely be father issues than cosmology issues.

A Great Publishing Idea

How about a slim volume of Jokes I Like To Tell from Canon Press? I enjoy them thoroughly. Thanks for the chuckle.

Mr. Z

Mr. Z, great idea. We’ll see . . . it depends on if I run out.

Permit the Children

If we ought to be baptizing our babies, should the spouses of Christians be baptized and take communion in a similar manner? Obviously, I hope, no one would physically force his spouse to be baptized. (You will be baptized and you will like it!) Nevertheless, if the spouse of a Christian professes a desire to follow Christ just as his spouse follows Him, yet doesn’t necessarily hold all of the right theology even on essential doctrines, should they still be baptized?

Michael

Michael, if an unbelieving spouse is willing to submit to the teaching and discipline of the church, then I wouldn’t call them an unbeliever. And the first thing I would teach them is what they would have to confess in order to be baptized.

The Order of Sin

I have a question regarding the notion that “we sinned, and all of creation fell.”

Didn’t Lucifer sin first?

By the time he temps Eve in the garden he had already been cast out of heaven.

I’ve always struggled with the timing embedded in the conclusion that our sin in Adam introduced sin into the world and caused the fall of all creation.

Didn’t Satan’s sin introduce sin into the world?

Please help!

You’re the man, love your work. And Epstein didn’t kill himself. (Apologies for the non sequitur but I’m hoping it’ll increase my chances of getting a response).

Andrew

Andrew, yes, Lucifer sinned before Adam, and Eve did also. But Adam was the federal head. That means that before Adam sinned, sin could be in the world, but sin did not have domination over the world. So when Paul in Romans says that through “one man” sin entered the world, he is talking about the dominion of sin, not the presence of sin.

Does God’s Sovereignty Inspire Worship?

While theistic evolution certainly makes me uncomfortable, the major challenge to my faith is supralapsarianism. Intellectually assenting to God ever-knowing and setting into motion a very good creation, our fall, and our redemption is one thing, but it does not inspire love in me. I have entertained process theology as a means to obviate my unease, but I ultimately do not believe that the God who created time is limited by it. This whole subject leaves me believing yet struggling with the trust and hope of faith. It inspires fear (though I’m not sure it is the kind that is the beginning of wisdom). Reading that all present sorrows are nothing compared to the joy to come, and reasoning that I am mere clay and would view all this differently were I not constrained by time may make hypothetical sense, but it is nonetheless an exercise in reason that does not fill me with trust and love but rather a pagan-like dread of the potter. I would appreciate any thoughts you have on this.

Best regards,

Daniel

Daniel, thanks for the question. I don’t want to come off as callused in this response, but I think you need to do more than lament how little your reasoning can do for you. You need to move on to repent of your manner of reasoning. If it does not culminate in glory, then to hell with it. So go over the argument again, and then glorify God by faith.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
271 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Armin
Armin
2 months ago

Doug, Is it sinful of the Jews to try and keep Israel majority Jewish? If not, then why can’t other nations adopt that same exclusionary approach? What if I were to say, “This is what I think the American nation should be, and therefore I believe we should include X group because they fit that identity and exclude Y group because they don’t.” Is this evil somehow? And what if one of the excluded groups is Jews? Does that make it different? This is really the more important question than whether or not it’s better or worse to have Jews… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Armin
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Armin, I don’t have any problem with a nation having control of its identity. If that is the principle, then I think we can agree. I do not believe it is inherently evil for Zulus to decline to grant citizenship to a Tutsi.

Wow. I’ve seen lots of flirtations with the idea, “racism by the state is acceptable”, but it still shocks me every time.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, don’t visit Saudi as you will be really shocked.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I’ve literally never met an American, Christian or not, liberal or conservative, who thought that Saudi Arabia was a good model for us.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Perhaps you should try Iran, South Africa, China, Cuba or even Venezuela. There have been plenty of pundits and politicians telling us that we should be more like those countries. Try them on for size.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I guess it’s a good thing that I’ve never read such pundits. Also, I’m completely perplexed as to what relation those nations’ governments have to the topic at hand.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Christians are to be informed. The pundits I mentioned are on national TV, Bernie lauded Venezuela, other top DNC politicians give glowing reviews to the countries I mentioned; so, it is hard not to be aware of them. The totalitarian governments I mentioned use national racism to enslave or otherwise punish those who don’t meet their particular view points. If you kept up with the news last year and this, you would see that America uses national racism to promote groups such as Antifa or BLM or Whiteness allowing them to tear large holes in America’s foundations. That is… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

First off, the topic was whether or not state racism is wrong. You still haven’t explained what relevance you think you’re making to that topic.

On the other false claims you’re making, yet again this is a situation where you should do your research.

When I talk about democratic socialism, I’m not looking at Venezuela. I’m not looking at Cuba. I’m looking at countries like Denmark and Sweden.” 

https://quillette.com/2018/03/10/sanders-venezuela-meme/

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you take a beating here because you cherry pick quotes and push narratives that don’t really fit scripture without extreme twisting. Bernie lavished praise on Venezuela for years after Chavez came to power. When it collapsed, he changed his tune to the I’m looking at northern Europe. That is a typical communist twist from a cheap politician. I don’t make false claims, but thank you for giving me that credit. State nationalism in tyrannical governments is rampant. In others that are not quite as tyrannical, such as Libera, you must be black to be a citizen. It doesn’t matter… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Did you read the article or not? Quillette isn’t exactly known as a far-left source. If you have counter-evidence, then provide it. This reminds me of when you claimed over and over that Bill Clinton announced that he was going to reduce the # of cattle guards to save money, you make these claims that fit your ideology without needing any actual evidence they’re true.

The article suggests that after an exhaustive search they could not find any examples of Bernie Sanders praising Venezuela, and I certainly doubt he has ever praised any supposed “state racism” there.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes Jonathan. I did my homework. That is one article. The burn lauded Venezuela other times. You just didn’t read his comments years ago and Quillette isn’t going to tell the whole story. He is a communist and communists are really good liars. You need to understand that our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, speak out of both sides of their mouths depending on which way the wind is blowing. Biden was against having open borders and letting in just anyone. Now he is all for it. That is true of a host of other elected officials in… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Given the context of this discussion, it appears Bernie thinks socialism works best in certain nations with largely white populations. Do we really want to go there? And while Sanders may not support state-supported racism, he supports abortion, LGBTQ+ madness and other things Christians should hate. He also wrote a rape fantasy essay in his younger years that was…well…sickening.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I think Kerela’s socialist policies (the result of a long-term collaboration between communists and christians) looked very good. Of course, they could pursue that mostly unopposed from the outside due to being encapsulated within a much large nation. Most nations in Central America, Africa, and Asia who have tried to enact such policies have been purposely sabotaged by the USA and other powerful nations, who would rather fund terrorists, start wars, enact crippling sanctions, and commit acts of CIA-directed sabotage rather than allow a nation where they had corporate interests to pursue socialist policies. That of course is neither here… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You believe all that but almost certainly deny the current FBI, DoJ, military brass and corporate media are at their most untrustworthy and downright totalitarian levels ever. Let me guess…you also blame South Africa’s current 30%+ unemployment, massive rioting and violence (much directed against whites) on “white supremacy” from decades ago, too? It couldn’t have anything to do with their own sin and corruption….

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

The “Christians” in Kerela you speak of are no more Christian than Bernie/Biden supporters in the U.S. who claim to follow Christ but play the harlot with pagans on the left.
Kerala Catholics at ease with abortion – The Hindu

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Cherrera, thank you for pointing out one of Bernie’s well thought out policies that doesn’t really pass review.

Thank you for helping all of us to laugh.

Last edited 2 months ago by Dave
Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, I’m no friend of Sanders (far from it; I think his policies are very dangerous in many ways, and I would not support), and I often disagree with Jonathan, but I don’t think it is justifiable to claim that your unsupported memory of something bad Sanders probably said at some point in the past (that is no longer recorded by any of his numerous opponents or rivals) should trump a detailed and well-cited investigation that found he never expressed support for Venezuelan policies at all. If someone proves one of your assertions to be flatly wrong, as in fact… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

Thank you Nathan, that is appreciated.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

Nathan, I appreciate your comments and Quillette did write a pretty good article; however, it does not attribute Sanders opinions from years past and doesn’t give the full impact from the others they mentioned. And for that reason, I don’t think I am wrong on Bernie and I am certainly not wrong on the other pundits. If I am, I apologize in advance for that mistake. There is a problem in current research because to find things, you have to go to newspaper archives to dig out things. You have to dig like a 49er to find the nuggets. Our… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Clinton never made the “cattle guard” statement. That is not deniable and you make yourself look foolish every time you double down on it. The idea that he could have said something on national TV that made you “spit your coffee out” and yet not a SINGLE Republican writer or radio show host commented on it anywhere should strike you as beyond ridiculous.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Clinton never made the “cattle guard” statement.” Jonathan, as I said before, you weren’t there and I was. It is the truth even if you can’t find it with your fact checking internet. Take this to heart Jonathan. Stop calling everyone you disagree with a lair. Stop It! Just because you can’t find it on the internet doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Stop It! BLM is a racist organization. Antifa is racist organization. Affirmative Action is racist US national program. All of the above violate scripture. Those three activities are national racism right here in the Good ‘Ol US of… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You claim this nationally broadcast speech was so ridiculous and notable that the network cut away in embarrassment, said they didn’t know what Clinton was talking about, and played something else in its place. Yet somehow, neither Rush Limbaugh nor William Buckley Jr. nor George Will nor Bill Kristal nor Dinesh D’Souza nor Michael Savage nor Michael Medved nor Dennis Praeger nor Bill O’Reilly nor ANY conservative think tank, television show, radio broadcast, or magazine decided to comment on the incredibly embarrassing moment. Why is it so difficult for you to see how ridiculous your whole scenario is and how… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, thank your for your accolades. In your haste to confer them on me you missed the main point — state sponsored racism in the US.

BLM is a racist organization with US backing.
Antifa is racist organization with US backing.
Affirmative Action is racist US national program.
All of the above violate scripture.

Those three activities are state sponsored racism right here in the Good ‘Ol US of A. Why don’t you condemn them?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I don’t think Antifa is an organization, but everyone I’ve ever seen who participates in violent Antifa actions is a fool. I’m not aware of any official positions on race at all. I wouldn’t call “BLM” racist for the same reason I wouldn’t call “Republicans” or “Democrats” racist – all three are far too big a tent which certainly include some racists but which include a lot of other folks too. There are lots of different “BLM” organizations and lots of other people who associate with BLM as a pro-civil rights movement but who are not affiliated with any organization… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, you have made the same assertion 4 times now and claim you are 100% correct and have done your homework, but you refuse to support your assertion with any evidence. There’s no point in continuing.

I personally haven’t seen Bernie Sanders support racist policy in Venezuela or any of those other countries you listed. I will believe you and call him out for it when I do. Until then, I can’t.

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I have watched politics for decades. You admit that you don’t read opposition literature or watch their pundits. That is where our disagreement occurs.

Let’s focus on what you may ascribe to but don’t want to admit:

BLM is a racist organization.
Antifa is racist organization.
Affirmative Action is racist.
All of the above violate scripture.

How about focusing on that.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, I’m unclear why free health care, welfare, and a minimum wage are inherently racist if all three are at least theoretically available to people of any race. Are they racist in intention or because they are what some people would call structurally racist–that, in practice, they benefit minority members at the expense of tax-paying non-minorities? Or are they racist because you think they are intended to keep minority members unhealthily dependent on the government?

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, Yes. In a blog comment it is difficult to flesh out the argument, so I will be brief. All three practices are ungodly and Christians should stop practicing them as best they can until God allows our laws to be changed. Free health care isn’t free as it is paid for by those who worked and had their hard earned cash taken by the government to be redistributed to those who aren’t working. That is theft and is ungodly. Today, illegals have free health care and Social Security benefits because the US law favors them over citizens. Even those… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, today’s welfare is monstrous theft and is born by the working folks of America. In the early 1900s some welfare was given to poor folks, but church fare and local charities took care of those in their neighborhoods. With the Great Society, LBJ’s minions asked all the major denominations what they thought about paying less than 1% more to Federal Taxes so that the government could take care of all the poor. Churches would not need to have deacons and pastors answering midnight calls and could focus on ministry. Of course, the 1% increased. Most Christians bought the program… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, the minimum wage is another ungodly program that sounds good, but when really examined shows unfavorable facets. Scripture does not back up a minimum wage. The minimum wage does not allow the employer to pay good workers what they are worth and does not allow the employer to pay less to poor workers who are not doing the job well. As a result, the industries which use mostly unskilled labor are rudely driven by this law and there is a large disproportionate impact on young blacks. Walter Williams testified to Congress several times about how to help young blacks.… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, the elephant knocking over our furniture is that American Christians backed away from biblical political and business practices so that now the government is involved in too many areas that are not scripturally part of the government’s business. As a result, we have program after program that sounds good, but are not really good for anyone except those skimming big bucks off the top. Christians are not well informed and do not remember actions or statements by those in powerful elected or appointed positions. So, we keep getting the government we deserve instead of a government established by the… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“The article suggests that after an exhaustive search they could not find any examples of Bernie Sanders praising Venezuela, and I certainly doubt he has ever praised any supposed “state racism” there.” Hogwash and hooey. If any conservative posted an op-ed to his official website asserting “… the American dream is more apt to be realized in Pinochet’s Chile … Who’s the banana republic now?” he’d never be forgiven nor let off easy in a sloppy article. People have been cancelled for far less. Jonathan should be repenting for his own false claims and supporting those with zero integrity who thrive… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

The claim was that Bernie had personally praised Venezuela’s racist policies.

The reality is that decades ago, someone who ran Bernie’s website once linked an article written by an unrelated author criticizing America’s economic inequality, deep within which was a throwaway line mentioning economic mobility in Venezuela.

If you think the reality proves the claim, then you’re just trolling. As several have pointed out, even Quillette thinks that claim is ridiculous and Quillette is generally considered to be a right-wing outlet.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

A “throwaway” line about Venezuela being a place more likely to find the American dream…than America. Yeah, right. It’s only “throwaway” because it shows Bernie’s true colors and doesn’t fit your narrative. Many people write for Quillette. To state “Quilette” (and by inference, conservatives) believe something because one contributor does is classic fallacy of composition. Maybe take their plank out of your own eye before accusing others of fallacious thinking?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

How does it “show Bernie’s true colors” when Bernie didn’t write it and wasn’t even the person who posted it?

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You must have been in a coma during the Obama administration with his AGs, the creation of BLM and setting the stage for CRT, white-hating struggle sessions and other racist excrement we have now.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

And in the category of “Racism by the state is acceptable because they work with the legacy media to hide it”:
Blackness Fatigue: Enough is Too Much, by Fred Reed – The Unz Review

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

So this is Fred Reed: “White nationalists” as they call themselves would like to US to be close to one hundred percent white. So would I. So would many tens of millions of Americans who do not call themselves white nationalists, but are. Diversity causes nothing but trouble, and is doing so now. Then, ominously, the imposition of black cultural norms on whites. America is being utterly remade to conform to the desires of blacks, this being pushed by people most of whom do not like blacks. How many of them go to black ghettos to eat, or send their children… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

So then, linking to a racist automatically makes one a racist. Good to know. You once linked to Ta-Nehisi Coates, on this very blog. So this is Ta-Nehisi Coates: When people who are not black are interested in what I do, frankly, I’m always surprised. I don’t know if it’s my low expectations for white people or what. From Coates’ book, The Beautiful Struggle: At the Baltimore Arena we were in full effect. We peered down from cheap seats so high that the ring was our own gift box. There were white people everywhere, and this was the most I’d… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I’m only guessing that you didn’t read Cherrera’s link because I quoted directly from it. If he’s linking me to a racist argument, am I supposed to assume that’s not his position? And you obvious haven’t read The Beautiful Struggle because Coates’s quote about his childhood feelings towards white people is not supposed to be prescriptive or praiseworthy, he’s just being honest about his childhood emotions. Since I have never linked to any racist arguments by Coates or praised any racist position of his, your attempt to deflect is a waste of time. Now, do you agree with Cherrera’s link?… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” -Romans 2:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” -Matt. 7:1-2 It’s obvious you didn’t read the first quote I gave, because Coates’ quote from 2015 is simply him demonstrating that his feelings of proud racism from his childhood haven’t changed. Yeah, posting guys… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Anyone who wishes can read the link and decide for themselves whether this is “a racist argument if there ever was one” or anything like the hatred in Cherrera’s article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

To demand that all whites pay money to all blacks because some whites mistreated some blacks a long time ago is hateful, divisive, and the textbook definition of racist. Reparations, if it were ever implemented, would only cement segregation as a long-term or permanent state. Only a dupe or a demagogue would argue otherwise.

What I find hilarious is your complete and utter blindness to the fact that, in your unhinged obsession with finding racism under every right-wing rock, you’ve been condemning yourself.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

“Demand that all whites pay money to all blacks” is not the argument of the article at all. You should actually read these things instead of just reflexively attacking them.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I just gave the definition of reparations. The article tries to make the case for it.

It is therefore the argument of the article, your pathetic attempts at gaslighting notwithstanding.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

That is not the definition of reparations nor anything supported in the article. You just made it up.

The US paid reparations to victims of the Japanese internment, for example, yet that would obviously not fit your made-up definition.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Not sure “Is not!” is a very persuasive argument.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

You lied about what I and the article promoted. You provided zero sources or evidence for you lie. I pointed out that I have never said such a thing nor does the article I linked say it. What other proof do I need? If you’re making a false claim out of thin air, it’s your job to prove it true, I can’t prove a negative.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I find your pathetic whimpering to be most amusing.

It always comes down to this. All you have left is to bleat “you’re lying!”, over and over again, like some lost, scared sheep. You’re so pathologically desperate for the last word, you literally have nothing else.

Which is rich, considering the source. Face it, Jonathan: You have no credibility, even less so after that stunt you pulled with the Fred Reed quote.

Of course, concepts such as “credibility” never mattered to ideologues such as yourself.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

For anyone uninclined to sit through Jonathan’s homework assignment, professional racist Ta-Nahisi Coates goes on for many pages about terrible things that have happened to black people that no one disagrees with. Then cites more modern alleged “problems”, using decades since debunked half truths about banking practices. Even if you grant him these however, he does nothing to address the primary objections to reparations. Its a giant pile of emotional appeal, an emotional appeal that’s particularly ineffective if you’re at all familiar with how aggressively dishonest, discriminatory, and just generally morally reprehensible Coates himself is.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Since virtually the entire article deals with events that happened in the lifespan of Clyde Ross, a “modern” man he interviewed in detail, it’s quite disingenuous to try to imply you can separate the harms and place some in the distant past.

The harms done to Clyde Ross and other Black folk like him are catalogued in detail, quite difficult to deny, and were done to people alive right now. Like Clyde Ross. None of them have been “debunked”.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Also, it’s quite indicative that in the 7 years since Coates wrote this article and the 4 years or whatever it’s been since that time I posted it on this site, none of the detractors have ever mentioned Clyde Ross once or debunked any of the statements of fact in the article. Instead, they just make vague general condemnations and search desperately for character attacks. As if attacking Coates’s character would somehow change Clyde Ross’s life or the life of any other Black man who suffering what Clyde Ross and those like him suffered.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“ it’s quite disingenuous to try to imply you can separate the harms and place some in the distant past.” Good thing I didn’t do that. Although its more than disingenuous, its blatantly dishonest to pretend that I did. I didn’t argue that harms were irrelevant because they were old. I argued that portions of the article were irrelevant because both sides of the disagreement agree to them. You can’t get someone to change their mind by repeating to them something they already agree with. The objection to reparations has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not harm took place.… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

But Clyde Ross cannot “sue the individuals that had harmed him” because that harm was explicitly allowed by the US government and often even committed by the US government. You can’t sue someone in court for racism that was legal. Other times even when their acts were illegal, they have tried to duck responsibility by having transferred their ill-gotten gains to others via sales or inheritance and/or arguing the one harmed no longer has basis to sue. That’s the whole point. Even when the USDA was found to have explicitly discriminated against Black farmers for decades, Congress had to pass… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

And no, you falsely characterized the Fred Reed debate. I argued that Fred Reed’s racist arguments invalidate his racist arguments. I didn’t make some unrelated attack on his character, I attacked the very argument that was made in the link because of the anti-Black racism exposed there, with 80% of what I quoted from Fred Reed coming directly from the link that was posted.

JohnM
JohnM
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,
This is the first I’ve heard of Fred Reed. I don’t know what he is. I am not a white nationalist and I do not want the US to be close to one hundred percent white. I do not believe diversity necessarily causes nothing but trouble.

That said, all in all, Reed is not wrong in this article, which includes much more than just the part you quote. He points to things right in front of us, and things that are smoldering, that we would be foolish to disregard.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

Yes, there was a lot more in the article than the part I quoted. That included a great deal of openly racist material beyond those excerpts. Perhaps you wish to pick and choose what you like out of it, but I think an anti-black position that is so clearly borne out of the author’s own prejudices has little to commend it. If there is any validity in what he is saying, then there should be authors who don’t need to use anti-black positions and desire for white homogeneity to get there.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

Jonathan dodged that and went straight to whining about racism and accusing others of making bad arguments. There are entire video channels (though Youtube usually deletes them quickly) with hundreds of videos of horrific black-on-white violence…and black-on-Asian and black-on-Hispanic ones as well. The opposite almost never happens. If it does, it’s on MSM and lamestream social media 24/7 until there are riots or statues are taken down. It’s a huge elephant in the room, along with affirmative action and other issues, but almost no one dares to discuss it. If Jonathan really cared about Biblical issues of race (non-partiality), he’d… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

 posting guys like this here here is neither going to convince me that you’re not racist nor is it going to somehow convince me that racism is good and righteous.”

A mildly amusing comment, as you’ve managed to convince everyone who listens to you that you’re racist *and* that you believe racism is good and righteous.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Well, to be fair, racism is only good and righteous when Jonathan and Ta-Nehisi Coates practice it.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

The irony of your logic is striking.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

….. Except I didn’t give any logic? I said something was amusing. That’s just an observation.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

How was it “amusing”? It’s pretty normal that people who get accused of supporting racist logic turn around and say, “No, you’re the racist!” That’s been the go-to deflection for as long as I’ve been alive.

It was ironic because Doug Wilson and many others here repeatedly say that being considered racist doesn’t make one racist and should be a badge of honor. So you trying to taint someone by making an appeal to majority opinion rather than actually being able to make an argument yourself is ironic.

Mike
Mike
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Okay, I’m a bit curious about this, Jonathan. Are you claiming that it’s always wrong for a state to take ethnicity into account for immigration and naturalization policies?

Obviously this wouldn’t apply to the US, as our history and tradition is the multi- ethnic “melting pot.” But what about states that, by history and tradition, are largely single-ethnic to begin with? Are such considerations always wrong for them?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike

I understand when certain ethnic/racial factors are are taken into account as temporary or emergency responses to a particular problem. (See the disciples appointing greeks to address the needs of greeks when hebrews were neglecting them.) But I also think the Bible is clear that the desired endpoint of the gospel is unity and not segregation, and thus any policies that attempt to cement segregation as a long-term or permanent state are wrong. Even outside of our duties as Christians, I can’t imagine any logical defense for a racist national policy. The only arguments I’ve seen are lazy attempts to… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“But I also think the Bible is clear that the desired endpoint of the gospel is unity and not segregation, and thus any policies that attempt to cement segregation as a long-term or permanent state are wrong.” Antifa is mostly woke white folks (Democrats) using unrest to force a color wedge into American life to change America into a communist style country. BLM is a Marxist group attempting to use social event to change the fabric of America to one they prefer. Universities are moving back to black dorms instead of mixed ones. The Bible tells us that foreigners are… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, I have no desire to join a dogpile here. But calling restrictive/selective immigration policy “racism by the state” is just wrong. Nation and ethnicity share the same root. At the foundation of every nation there is a shared sense of history and cultural cohesion. Of course this can get very ugly, but it isn’t inherently wrong to have a vision of “us” that is shaped by a shared culture and history. Nations like England have went from being over 90%”white british” 30 years ago to being about 75% white British today, and in many areas the foreign born population… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’ll simply repeat – if the cultural differences are your issue, then discriminate on that basis, not on the basis of skin color. Someone can change their behavior and adapt to a new culture to conform to the expectations of a new nation, but they can’t change their ethnicity or the color of their skin.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Nonsense. 1: Culture doesn’t just come from a void; it’s downstream of history, which is to say, of heritage, which is to say, of *genetics*. You cannot go to Japan and become Japanese, and the only reason you think one *can* come to America and become American is because you’ve bought into the deracinated lie the telescreens offer as a replacement for what Jay outlined in Federalist #2. 2: Race is a good heuristic for culture. You know this and behave as if it were true—because even though you’d never, ever admit it to me, you know just as well… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I’m going to patiently wait and see if anyone else bothers to call out your racism.

And having lived in low-income black neighborhoods in the LA area (primarily Inglewood) for half my adult life, I can assure you that your ridiculous assumptions about my private life are false, and your assumption that all white people are like you is evidence that your heuristic of race has failed you.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, it is easy to call others racist or to say something is racist. You mentioned several times that some linked to this or that and implied that was a bad thing.

Thinking individuals read all sorts of unsavory articles and books to ascertain what others are thinking and saying.

So, please tell us exactly what is racist about Buford’s comment and why it is racist.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Dave

He said that he can just assume I am frightened by Black people and that Black people are rude and incompetent at their jobs, and that all White people know this about Black people but are just afraid to say this.

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Here are two statements. Tell me if you think they’re rayciss—not because I really care, but because I’m mildly curious. “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps, then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” “We as black people are never going to be successful, not because of you white people, but because of other black people. When you are black, you have to deal with so much crap in your life from other black people. For some reason we are brainwashed to… Read more »

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Paul wrote to Titus on Crete with the following: “One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, ‘Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.’ This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.” Well then? How about a modern update? One of the blacks, a basketball player of their own, said, ‘If you go to school, make good grades, speak intelligent, and don’t break the law, you’re not a good black person. It’s… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, that isn’t racist. That is what Social Justice Warriors call racist, but it isn’t racist.

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You can assure me of your goodthink in line with the values statements of every major global corporation, rising stock prices be upon them, until the cows come home. But it’s not me you should worry about; it’s your ‘allies’ on the left. HR is coming for you too. They will dig out what’s in your heart, and you’ll then be given a choice: 1: lie 2a: be honest and accept the truth of your evil racism 2b: be honest and accept the truth of your entirely valid racism. I’ll take 2b, thanks, because my fathers worked and died to… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago

Buford, Culture is a manifestation of cultus- what you worship, genetics. I am certainly a witch in the HBD sense, but the idea that cultural can be boiled down to genetic determinism is absurd. My people were once painting themselves blue and and burning people alive, and it sure wasn’t improved genetics that made the difference. Further, I live in appalachia, and I assure you there is a white underclass here who you dont want to be near in dark alleys and who will certainly provide you very poor service if you are stuck dealing with them at a local… Read more »

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Who said anything about genetic determinism? I only said that culture was downstream of genetics. It isn’t the whole of culture—but denying that it’s a major factor in it is silly.

Regarding the rest: outliers are not the mean.

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

…also, improved genetics *absolutely did* make a difference. Africa spent the past 2000 years enslaving and selling, or just killing and eating its smart fraction. Christian Europe probably executed an entire percent of its population for various crimes year after year after year. Japan spent 250 years before modernity Darwinizing, usually in creatively painful ways, anyone who showed even the slightest hint of inclination towards disobedience or even difference. Does this show up in time preference, crime rates, average number of sexual partners, etc., etc.—to wit, in society? You bet your booty it does. And if you think it doesn’t,… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago

Buford, Quite a bit of our conversation was lost. But I wanted to recapitulate one small part. Based on the Flynn effect the estimated IQ of the median white american in 1900 was about 70, similar to the median IQ in Botswana today. Based on measured values, using the most g-loaded test available – Raven’s Progressive Matrices, the median IQ of white Americans in 1942 was 86, a little lower than the median for black Americans today. You should consider the implications of that carefully. If you would like to get a more rounded view of this topic you should… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

While many would love for the Flynn Effect to be the deux ex machina that ends the racial IQ debate, there’s a lot more to it.
Getting Voxed: Charles Murray, Ideology, and the Debate on IQ – Quillette

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I dont think the Flynn effect is a deus ex machina at all. It raises more questions than it answers. But they are questions that must be attended to. Most people find the idea that the average American in the 1940s had about the IQ of a typical highschool drop out today to be absurd. Also, it we had a mean IQ of 70 or less in 1900, similar to the least developed countries in subsarahan Africa and we managed to develop the way we did then what are the causal factors? There are their distributional effects to consider, could… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Yeah, and it’s hard to believe those 70 IQ kids could pass tests like this over a 5-hour period. How many 8th graders today can go more than 2 minutes without looking at their phone?
think:lab: 8th Grade Examination from late 1800’s (typepad.com)

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Even accounting for a smaller population being schooled and extreme differences in school quality across regions (family lore indicates that schools in my area were terrible, they were so violent that my grandparents left school early) it still beggars belief that the average kid would have been right on the edge of “learning disabled” in modern schools. Also, even with a smaller cohort who entered the white collar professions, you would still have to hold that the average white collar professional in the 1950s was considerably less intelligent than the average college graduate today… and have you met average college… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I think we tend not to realize the enormous role memorization played in pedagogy right up until the 1960s. When you look at nineteenth century literature, history, and geography end-of-chapter textbook questions, you are struck by the emphasis on recall–and little else. “Name the three rivers that meet in Pittsburgh”–but never “What geographical factor influenced the French in choosing the location of Fort Duquesne?” What our kids are required to do on the AP Euro History exam–develop and defend a thesis that unifies up to ten previously unseen historical documents–would have been far beyond the reach of students whose study… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

What we don’t know is how these people with IQs around 70 would have done on modern exams that require higher level thinking skills.”

Ok, let’s see an 8th grade exam from an average modern public school that kids from 125 years ago would struggle with (assuming it wasn’t lack of knowledge about history, science, etc. from the 20th Century). Color me skeptical.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I think the most useful thing is for me to provide a link to the California state standards for eighth grade. The standards dictate what is taught in every California classroom, and mastery is measured by the compulsory subject tests in language arts, math, social studies, and science at the end of eighth grade. Some of the science standards are obviously inapplicable as they assume knowledge of DNA, the periodic table, Mendelian genetics, and atomic subparticles. But even so, they demonstrate that students are not being tested on mere rote memory but also on the ability to apply concepts. I… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jill Smith
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I’m curious how well you think the more modern synthetic curriculums do at teaching (to use a tired term, but the only one that comes to mind) critical thinking skills? In my experience people use these abilities in very narrow confines, but they never generalize to their wider view of the world or to combatting social proof. I’m not entirely convinced that teaching kids a bunch of recallable facts wouldn’t be better than teaching them to use boutique reasoning processes in heavily proscribed circumstances.

But i really don’t know. See below for my certainty on any of this!

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

What I learned during teacher training is that most children don’t acquire the ability to think abstractly before 12 or 13. Math teachers have confirmed that to me–that something almost magical happens between sixth and eighth grade with the result that students stop solving for x by plugging in numbers and start applying abstract rule-based strategies. They are able to apply the rule when the problem is presented in a different form. What I noticed as an English/history teacher is that students between ninth and twelfth grade steadily improve in their ability to make connections between seemingly unrelated facts. When… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jill Smith
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’m struck by the fact that the people you’re debating against appear to think that IQ tests are unassailable in proving inherent racial differences when it comes to white folk versus black folk, but yet these same people completely refuse to even believe the results of IQ tests when it comes to their own grandfather’s generation.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Its a real problem. I certainly believe that IQ is measuring a real underlying factor and that it correlated with number of life outcomes, especially education outcomes. However, the Flynn effect, and the extremely fast cohort gains in other countries (at one point 8th graders in Ehtiopia were gaining about 1 IQ point per year) should give us ample caution about comparing across time and geography. However, the black white IQ gap in America narrowed somewhat in the mid 20th century, but has since stablilized at about 1 st. dev. I think there are cultural matters at issue, but there… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I think you already know that I would dispute there is a genetic component. Not necessarily that there isn’t one, but without any doubt there isn’t one that can be demonstrated based on our current information. First off, because the Black experience has been so categorically different from the White experience as to make any scientific comparison ridiculous. Even when studies attempt to account for income in their results, they completely ignore that a White family making $50,000/year and a Black family making $50,000 haven’t lived enough close to the same experience in America. They typically differ in wealth, in… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Except for the arithmetic problems, this exam really tests a student’s ability to memorize. The questions don’t require the student to engage in analytical or abstract thought. The pedagogy of the time was to have students memorize vast chunks of text and repeat it word for word to the teacher. I think that anyone with a decent memory who was forced to learn history and geography textbooks by heart could probably pass this test even with a below average IQ!

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill,

I agree that these test arent as hard as they look, they are simply asking questions in an unfamiliar idiom from an unfamiliar curriculum (maybe there is a lesson in there for at least the less g-loaded IQ tests!). However, I think if you took 30 kids with a mean IQ of 70 and a normal distribition and you spent several months trying to teach this material, you would get very poor results. Buy maybe i am underestimating the intellectual capacity of 70 IQ kids. I also don’t think AP classes is a great comparison set!

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I can’t really answer that. During most of my teaching years, I wouldn’t have encountered students with IQs much lower than 85. Even those were pretty exceptional–unless I was teaching gifted classes (which was most of the time), my students’ IQs ranged from 90 to 120 with most clustered around 100. By the time kids reach senior high, the really low IQ kids are in modified classes. I think a kid with a high average IQ can handle AP Euro as classwork but he is not likely to do well on the outside exam without intensive tutoring from someone as… Read more »

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’ve followed the Unz-hosted debate myself for a long, long time, and it’s one of the reasons I said I wasn’t a strict genetic determinist. (Probably put me around where the proprietor of Chateau Heartiste ended up before his memory-holing, peace and ≥8s be upon him.) But what DOES seem clear to me is that apples generally don’t fall far from their trees. If you have to put money on it, that’s the safe way to bet. Largely consistent patterns, even in fluctuating data from imperfect tests where it isn’t even perfectly clear *what*, exactly, we are measuring (e.g. in… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Buford T. Crimethinker
demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago

Well, it sounds like you have been down several of the rabbit holes. I’ve spent the last 15 years going through a whole medicine cabinet (red pills, black pills, clear pills, white pills, gray pills) and found have been left with a lot of skepticism toward anything that looks like a movement or that traffics heavily in the friend-enemy distinction. And although I am something of an HBD witch, it is far from obvious to me what the implications are for public policy or personal behavior. BTW – if you don’t havent listened to martymade (who blew up last week)… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

“ I live in appalachia, and I assure you there is a white underclass here who you dont want to be near in dark alleys and who will certainly provide you very poor service” While Jonathan would will likely go straight for an ad hom here (while accusing others of doing the same to him), Jim Goad’s “Redneck Manifesto” makes a strong case that rednecks/hillbillies are the most maligned group in the U.S. He’s a former liberal/hippie Rolling Stone writer who wrote the book in the 90s. To to say it was ahead of its time is a massive understatement. As… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

As for the DMV, I know Asians who avoid one city’s office like the plague and drive an extra 30 minutes to another one where they’re treated much better. The bad treatment isn’t by whites, either. To be fair, the smaller town’s DMV has quite a few black employees but they don’t have the “don’t bother us while we eat and chat” privileged attitude you find in so many rotting cities now.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

First off, I agree that anything like “race” is a blunt tool and mostly worthless. In this context of this discussion Doug mentioned Zulu and Tutsi, and the overarching discussion is generic white Americans and Jewish Americans. Contra Armin’s absurd idea that Ashkenazi jews aren’t white, both sets are of the same race. However, if you accepted the idea that certain kinds of cultural diversity have deleterious effects, a la Putnam (you may not agree, but humor me), how would you seek to slow the rate of cultural change/ conflict? I specifically mentioned language and ancestry. It seems that country… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

To humor you, if I had those concerns then I would work to determine what the cultural non-negotiables were whose absence was leading to conflict and then work to solidify those amongst all people. And I believe you proposed solution to the “identity crisis” is a form of begging the question. It would be as if there was a church conflict between those who wish to evangelize and those who wish not to, and the proposed solution was to stop evangelizing until it got sorted out. Not only does this “solution” merely choose sides in the conflict, but it runs… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Your analogy only works if non restrictive immigration is as foundational to “America” as evangelism is to the church. You are actually the one begging the question by assuming that is true. I don’t think it is true, and I don’t think America under the immigration act of 1882, or 1891, or 1925 was a completely failure as an american nation in the way that a church which doesn’t evangelize is a failure as a church. I don’t know if you agree that a nation needs to common culture that the vast majority of its citizens can assent to,… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

The influence and contribution of immigrants and the children of immigrants has been a continuous, foundational factor in every period of this nation’s history going back well before it even emerged as a separate nation. Even under the immigration acts of 1882, 1891, and 1925 (and several between and since), there continued to be a great deal of immigration from “unfamiliar” cultures which shaped every one of those periods. I certain agree with you that we are losing our way as a nation of ideals. I don’t see how immigration has any relation to that – in my experience many… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Besides the gospel arguments which I think are very strong, JohnM says below “ the central ideal of conservatism is individual responsibility“. To discriminate against someone based on their ethnicity or the color of their skin appears to defy that principle of individual responsibility completely.

JohnM
JohnM
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

JohnM did not say that, John M did, but JohnM agrees.

Armin
Armin
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, you’re thinking that restoring a normatively white America is absurd shows you lack imagination. I may have shared this article with you before, but here it is again. Greg Johnson’s proposals are entirely reasonable and doable.

https://counter-currents.com/2014/06/the-slow-cleanse/

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Armin

I read them carefully, and I don’t see how you imagine they are doable. The notion that, because Americans move all the time for economic and other reasons, it would therefore be legitimate to strip people of their citizenship and tell them their next move is to a foreign country is simply ridiculous. How would you induce all these nations to admit people who have only a tangential connection to them? Who have no claim on them and who don’t even speak their language? How would you force unwilling US citizens to leave without resorting to the kind of human… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jill Smith
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Armin

By the way, how do you feel as a Christian about Greg Johnson’s take on abortion: ““in a White Nationalist society … some abortions should be forbidden, others should be mandatory, but under no circumstances should they simply be a matter of a woman’s choice”.’

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Armin

Armin, I thought you might not be aware that 25% of the citizens of Israel are not Jewish. Just over 21% of Israeli citizens are Arab, and over 82% of those Arabs are Sunni Muslims. Perhaps Israel is not the best example of a nation sealing its borders either to maintain its ethnic identity or to keep out potential trouble makers.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jill Smith
Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, Israel has a nation state law that makes it officially apartheid.

An excerpt from Israel’s nation-state law reads, “The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.”

Arabs are citizens, they are subjects.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

They really an impressively poor apartheid state then. Seems *REALLY* stupid to allow the opposing peoples equal standing in virtually every respect, and allow them in your military.

Why, its almost like they aren’t an apartheid state at all, and that one statement is virtually meaningless in any real sense.

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Again, from their nation-state law: “The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.”

That puts Israel in the same category as apartheid South Africa. But, it sure is fascinating you have no problem with a country who claims itself as a shining light of democracy while actually being apartheid by any conventional definition.

Perhaps you could start your journey of education by looking up the definition of democracy and comparing that with what’s explicitly stated in the nation-state law.

Last edited 2 months ago by Will Travis
Bobby
Bobby
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

Will, see my remarks to Jonathan a few comments below. It might help you understand Justin’s struggles with even the simplest of concepts.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Bobby

Bobby, your boy Jonathan has done lied, doubled-down and projected too much. He needs your amazing brain power to get out of his current dilemma. SJWs, unite!

Bobby
Bobby
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Ouch! You’re being so mean. Please, Jesus, make him stop.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Bobby
Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

No it doesn’t. It falls short in some respect, but 21% of the citizens of Israel are Arabs. They have the right to vote to Knesset. An Islamist party is part of the present governing coalition in Israel. No blacks had the right to vote for the South African parliament under apartheid. During the last years of apartheid in the 1980s, there where separate chambers for mixed race coloreds and asians, but not for full blacks. Also, the Israeli Arabs vote for the same Knesset as the jews, with one person one vote, not for any special Arab chamber. So… Read more »

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago

Its remarkable the difficulty people have reading basic English. Again, from their nation-state law: “The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.” In plain English, that means that Arabs/Palestinians (all non-Jews) are subjects and not citizens; there is no other way to read it. All your other appeals are irrelevant to (and diversions from) that fundamental point. Its pure comedy to watch people attempt to defend the apartheid state of Israel, particularly when all it would take to understand the whole game is to look at a map progression over time… Read more »

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

For the reasons I mentioned (but you ignore) Israel is still not a state like apartheid. That doesn’t mean it is all good and nice. But things like that nation state law from ca 2 years ago, and the misuse of the absentee property laws to confiscate land whose owners are not absent, does not negate the fact that Israeli Arabs has rights that no apartheid era black South African had. Or that Israel’s Declaration of Independence from 1948 promises that there will be no discrimination in the new state regarding race, religion and sex, which is very different from… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Micael, do Palestinian Muslims and Christians have those rights?

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No, not the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The treatment they are given are horrible. But the question above was if Israel was an apartheid state like SA, which is what I have answered.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I think Israel can be considered an Apartheid state if it is specified that they are enacting Apartheid against Palestinian Christians/Muslims as opposed to against all Arabs. Based on my limited knowledge of South Africa it seems like the treatment of Gaza/West Bank (and former Golan Heights) is roughly similar to some of the South African townships only in some ways even worse.

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You can certainly call it a kind of apartheid practice, but the legal basis is different. The reason the Arabs in the West Bank doesn’t have citizenship and rights is that technically the West Bank is not part of Israel, it is occupied territories. Until 1988 they had citizenship in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, but when the first intifada broke out, the king renounced both the territories and the citizenship of its inhabitants. East Jerusalem is the only part annexed, and there the Arabs have citizenship.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I think that’s a fair breakdown.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

So you’re just going to……. completely ignore everything I said and get mad at me for what you imagine my opinion to be? There must be some kind of perception based illness going around. I don’t think a single person has been able to respond to what I said, rather than something else they imagine I said. Who said I have no problem with that law as written? Who said I have no problem with Isreal? On the contrary, I already stated below that I specifically do not support ethnicity as a component in law. My point was that you’re… Read more »

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

I think so, but your argument boils down to “there’s a piece of paper here that says they’re all racists, so clearly they are”. That’s just not enough information to make your point.”

Here’s the translation of your position: I know what Israel’s recently passed nation-state law clearly says, but I’ll just pretend that law is magically somehow not binding or meaningful and that my take, which lacks any kind of support besides my own vain imaginations, trumps what has been codified into law in Israel.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

The blacks in apartheid South Africa couldn’t vote. They couldn’t be elected to the legislature. They couldn’t attend schools or universities with white people, serve alongside white people in the military, or live in white areas without a special pass. Millions were uprooted from their homes and sent to live in tribal areas. Not a single one of these factors applies to Christians and Muslims living in Israel. You are making a disingenuous comparison.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Every single one of those factors apply to Christian and Muslim Palestinians in Palestine though, which Israel somehow claims is part of Israel, right?

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Legally, it doesn’t as far as I now. Of the areas taken in 6 days war, only East Jerusalem and Golan Heights have been annexed (legally declared part of Israel), and in there citizenship have been extended to the Arabs living there.

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Can you read, Jill? Its remarkable the difficulty people have reading basic English. Again, from Israel’s nation-state law: “The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.” In plain English, that means that Arabs/Palestinians (all non-Jews) are subjects and not citizens; there is no other way to read it. With regard to Christian treatment in Israel. The Israeli government was caught providing financial support to Lehava, a group of Israeli Jews which has called for the expulsion of “Blood-sucking” Christians from the land of Israel. Benzi Gopstein is their leader. This story… Read more »

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

In plain English, that means that Arabs/Palestinians (all non-Jews) are subjects and not citizens; there is no other way to read it. Ironically, this “plain English” rephrasing is less precise and not especially clear. What are the rights, duties, privileges of subjects as opposed to citizens, in general, and what details of Israel’s legal system demonstrate the close match? On the other hand, there’s certainly a more straightforward reading. What it means is that no group can secede from Israel or start a competing non-Jewish state within its traditionally claimed territory. That’s the entirety of what national self-determination means: the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

Do Palestinian Muslims and Christians have these rights?

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

But even if they doesn’t have collective rights like a nation, the Israeli Arabs still have individual rights, something blacks in apartheid SA didn’t have.

John M
John M
2 months ago

One of the fascinating things about antisemitism on the right is the ideological hypocrisy of identifying a group as the scapegoat. A the central ideal of conservatism is individual responsibility. People on the right who want to make arguments about the best way to deal with social decay by categorizing the issues in terms like the “jewish question” are ultimately undermining their foundational values. I am repeatedly disappointed when I hear my fellow conservatives say things like, “if we can answer the jewish question” or “if we can stop illegal immigration we can turn our society around”. While the leftist… Read more »

Ken
Ken
2 months ago
Reply to  John M

“Bare most of the blame.” Must be those emperor’s new clothes we keep hearing about.

Gray
Gray
2 months ago
Reply to  John M

In concurrence: “…many conservative Christians have traded covenant faithfulness for luxury, functional feminism, and spiritual abdication…” And, I think, have been doing so for quite a while: “American conservatism is merely the shadow that follows Radicalism as it moves forward towards perdition. It remains behind it, but never retards it, and always advances near its leader…The only practical purpose which it now subserves in American politics is to give enough exercise to Radicalism to keep it “in wind,” and to prevent its becoming pursy and lazy ,from having nothing to whip. No doubt, after a few years, when women’s suffrage… Read more »

Nathan James
Nathan James
2 months ago
Reply to  Gray

That is one doozy of a quote. He had America pegged pretty well.

Gray
Gray
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan James

I would say he was quite the optimist. Upon examining the congressional herd, it would seem that conservatism capitulated even in its final position.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  John M

John M, based on this principle, do you think it would be wrong to give or deny citizenship based on someone’s ethnic/racial identity?

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  John M

Well said. Even so, its not one or the other. Personal holiness and bringing the various spheres back under the sovereignty of Christ can be pursued in parallel. “if we can stop illegal immigration we can turn our society around” Aquinas deals with the issue of immigration based on scripture and clearly establishes a nation’s right to determine who can can become citizens. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2017/01/31/saint-thomas-aquinas-opposed-open-borders/ Lastly, “fascinating things about antisemitism on the right” presupposes the existence of antisemitism based on memes and appeals to zeitgeist while also failing to clearly define “antisemitism”. Before you discuss current, alleged “antisemitism” you must first… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

Israel had laws explicitly drawn along ethnic lines. Jesus taught that in the New Covenant, those ethnic lines were no longer determinative. Relying on Old Testament law to justify racial segregation is one of the clearest ways in which people fail to see the light of Jesus’s gospel message. (And both Acts and Paul’s writings make clear that this is not a new issue either.)

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jesus taught that in the New Covenant, those ethnic lines were no longer determinative. “

You’re trying to twist this true statement to imply that Jesus forbid people from doing so, on any scale, to any purpose.

I disagree with making laws on ethnic grounds, reparations for example, but its more than a bit of a stretch to try and make the case that Jesus forbid us from doing so.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

The claim in the Breitbart article was that Old Testament ethno-restrictive law for Israel proves that we can do what Israel did. Since the New Covenant explicitly ended those particular restrictions and declared them forbidden among Christians, they make a very poor argument for what we should do. You’re trying to flip that to “well it doesn’t say we can’t do it!” while ignoring that the basis for relaying on Old Testament law for this issue clearly doesn’t work.

Bobby
Bobby
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Justin is a flat-earther who believes the sun and the rest of the 6000 year old universe orbits around the earth. Sadly, you’re probably not going to get very far with him.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Bobby

lolwhut?

I’m neither of those things. Although I do really like the idea of becoming a professional flat earth apologist. It sounds like fun. You could make up almost any absurd reasoning you want and your own people would believe you.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Thomas Dolby, of “She Blinded Me with Science” fame, kind of did that. His 1984 album titled The Flat Earth inspired people to research the topic and become flat earthers. He accepted membership to their society even though he doesn’t believe the theory himself.
15 Celebrities Who Believe The Earth Is Flat | ScreenRant

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Since the New Covenant explicitly ended those particular restrictions and declared them forbidden among Christians” Firstly, they are not “restrictions”; they are principles outlined in the Old Covenant which serve as guidance for how God would have His people order or run civil government. Much of Calvin’s scripture-informed philosophy on civil government is derived from God’s dealings with Israel. Additionally, the Protestant Resistance tradition which informed the founders of America’s form of government is derived from principles of government outlined in the Old Covenant, a process of intellectual development which began back in the Middle Ages, made its way, ultimately… Read more »

Micael Gustavsson
Micael Gustavsson
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

I don’t think Jonathan above claimed that all applications of the law was ended, but that the delineation of who was part of the people of God was changed.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

Will, Jesus, Paul, and the book of Acts make quite clear over and over that numerous (not all) precepts of the Law are NOT binding upon Christians. While the spirit behind the law did not change, many of the rules as applied to humans on Earth certainly have. Those include commandments on divorce, cleanliness, slavery, war, the Sabbath, sacrifices, and certainly ethnic mixing. There is no doubt at all that many covenant laws are no longer applicable under the new covenant, the only questions are around the edges. That Christians should not be race-restrictive is one of the no-doubt ones.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You wrote: “The claim in the Breitbart article was that Old Testament ethno-restrictive law for Israel proves that we can do what Israel did. Since the New Covenant explicitly ended those particular restrictions and declared them forbidden among Christians, they make a very poor argument for what we should do.” NOWHERE in the NT does it say ANYTHING about ending “ethno-restrictive law” as it relates to immigration policy. Such a statement is pure nonsense. Not only that, your vague appeals, such as “Jesus, Paul, and the book of Acts make quite clear over and over” or “New Covenant explicitly ended… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

Do you believe that after the new covenant, followers of Christ should continue to refuse to allow citizenship to Egyptians and Idumeans until the 3rd generation and never admit Ammonites and Moabites to citizenship at all? Do you believe that Amalekites are to be our foes perpetually?

If you don’t believe that, then you acknowledge that those laws have ended. If you do believe that, then you don’t understand the Gospels, Romans, Galatians, Acts, or the rest of the New Testament.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’re trying to flip that to “well it doesn’t say we can’t do it!””

I’m not trying to flip anything to anything. I just don’t have any Biblical basis to *explicitly* forbid racially based laws at all levels and in all ways. Do you? If so, please cite it.

I did not make the argument that the Old Testament justifies it, and have no interest in whether or not it does.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Nothing in the New Covenant *explicitly* forbids laws at all levels and in all ways. Not even abortion passes that criteria. So it’s a silly demand. However, it makes quite clear in the Bible that people of the New Covenant should love their neighbor as themselves, care for the alien, never attribute the sins of the father to the son, and refuse to discriminate between the Jew and the Greek. So don’t think a Christian following the ethic of Jesus can justify race-based discrimination. Can you describe any rubric of Biblical interpretation that would allow you to discriminate by race… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

never attribute the sins of the father to to the son”

Okay, we’re finally getting somewhere. So we can throw out affirmative action and at least 95% of the woke agenda.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Along with reparations for slavery and Jim Crow.

I love it when Jonathan unwittingly argues against his own position.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Again, see Leviticus 25, Isaiah 5, Acts 3-6, and 2 Corinthians 8. Working to make a family/community/people whole doesn’t start and end with any one man’s personal sinful acts.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

If you suggesting that national policy is supposed to be a judgment of personal sin, then I’d say that’s a pretty poor basis for national policy already regardless of the father/son issue.

Good thing that’s not the basis for such policies. Just like the restoration of land in Jubilee (Leviticus 25), the condemnation of leaving others without land by the prophets (Isaiah 5) and the calls for equality by Paul (2 Corinthians 8) and in the early Christian community (Acts 3-6) are about much more than personal sin.

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago
Reply to  John M

Individual responsibility is important, yes. However, that is not the foundation on which the Right is built. (Though perhaps some conservatives would say so). The Right is fundamentally about preserving a culture, a people, a way of life, etc. It is fundamentally a reaction to the revolutionary nature of the Left. I’m not in any way disagreeing that conservative Christians have failed (hat tip to the Dabney quote from Gray) and need to clean house. Yes, we must take personal responsibility to live out our faith and impact our culture. But we also have a responsibility to identify threats to… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Mitch

The Right is fundamentally about preserving a culture, a people, a way of life, etc.

That definition of “the right” is ambiguous and appears very poor as a “fundamental” definition. Which culture and way of life does the right “preserve”? Are you suggesting that the right cannot be advocates for reform? Are you suggesting that culture was perfected at some point and the right only wishes to return to it? What point would that be?

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

That definition of “the right” is ambiguous and appears very poor as a “fundamental” definition.  You’re not wrong about it being ambiguous. But that is the nature of political terms and political discourse, unfortunately. If you try to circle the wagons and define “the right” with laser precision it just doesn’t work–you end up with a definition that excludes people that are obviously on the right. This is really true for many political terms–liberal, conservative, and left-wing have all become similarly confusing. It’s sort of an “I know it when I see it” situation for most people I think. I… Read more »

Ken
Ken
2 months ago

Regarding the pic of an animated David at the top of the article. Do you suppose he’s looking around trying to figure out why there’s a draft in the room?

Gray
Gray
2 months ago
Reply to  Ken

No. He was not drafted, he enlisted.

kyriosity
kyriosity
2 months ago
Reply to  Ken

He’s looking around for the ark so he knows when to start dancing.

Ken
Ken
2 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

If that’s how he was attired (or not attired) when doing that dance, no wonder Michel was scandalized.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

Do antisemites exist? Sure, including plenty in black nationalist and other leftist groups. Does the number of them commenting on places like Gab correspond with the actual number in conservative and dissident right circles? Hardly. Methinks if you remove leftist trolls, Feds and informants, the number would be very small.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Thank you. Being on Gab does not a conservative make. There may be some anti-Semitism on the right, but it’s generally confined to the alt-right, which, if it ever became mainstream, would cease to be alt-right. You’d be hard-pressed to find anti-Semitism on the mainstream Right — especially Evangelicals, whose philo-Semitic proclivities are arguably more ardent than that of Jews themselves. Whatever little anti-Semitism exists on the right is massively dwarfed by the out and proud anti-Semitism on the Left. Farrakhan, Jackson, Sharpton, the Squad, and even the Big Guy himself, President Asterisk, has had his anti-Semitic moments (when he’s… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

Yep. Also, if it wasn’t clear, the suggestion is anti-Semitism on sites like Gab may be amplified by leftists posing as racist conservatives. After all, Democrats hired agitators to show up at Trump rallies and we’ve seen Biden’s personal Gestapo make political arrests and entrap people on Jan. 6. Undercover video shows Democrats saying they hire agitators to disrupt Donald Trump events – Washington Times You may ask “Would anyone really waste their time posing as someone else to make them look bad”? Well, if you ever interacted with Antifa types on Twitter, a surprising number of them apparently live… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

This is a rather amusing attempt at gaslighting considering the host of anti-semitic comments posted directly below as well as the fact that you yourself just linked Unz in a response to me.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You’ve linked plenty of sites full of perverts, reverse racists, blasphemers, etc. in the past. I’ll take Reed, warts and all, over any godless fool at the Daily Beast or Slate. And commenters have nothing to do with the article. Lame attempts at accusing others of logical fallacies and gaslighting comes across as nothing but projection.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

There are certainly troll farms and various bad actors who are trying to drive wedges and increase political/cultural tension through ethnic/racial issues, and I have no idea what proportion or people on Gab are in this mode, or are 4chan types who are transgressing for the LOLs (though this has a way of seeping into your soul) but I have been a part of a number of right wing groups for years on line and in real life and I can tell you that antisemitic language or “just asking questions” is definitely on the rise. Armin is for real, and… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

I’ve only met one guy in real life who thought Jews were behind most everything evil. I’ve run into a few in private online groups, though not recently. It probably all depends on the group and when you’re active. As you said, there’s no way of knowing which comments (and how many) are real, fake, for laughs/shock or maybe even bot-created. I’ve just seen comments on places like Gab that reflect levels of anti-Semitism I’ve never seen in private groups, whether online or in person.

Buford T. Crimethinker
Buford T. Crimethinker
2 months ago

Chesterton, once more, had the best reply to this refusal to see the obvious: “They talk as if the first Rothschild was a peasant who patiently planted better cabbages than the other peasants.” I don’t know who you think is whining about Jewish achievements. I certainly don’t see anyone with any sort of wide audience doing so, on Gab or otherwise. Citation needed, in other words. What I *do* see is people noticing that there are certain particularly corrosive forms of behavior—usury, monetary debasement, the exclusive suppression of public Christianity, the promotion of pornography, homosexuality, and abortion, the promulgation of… Read more »

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

“Is this the Jewishness, or is it the atheism? Out of all the Jewish Bolsheviks, how many were observant Jews? With the Frankfurt School, how many were observant?” That’s a false dichotomy. What if atheism is consistent with “Jewishness”, which according to many polls it is. Further, “observant” in what way? Netanyahu has mentioned on multiple occasions he wanted to make the Talmud (not the Torah) the law of the land in Israel. Ben Shapiro makes proud reference to the collection of the Talmud he owns. The Talmud is acknowledged as central to the cannon in Judaism and given preeminence… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Will Travis
Armin
Armin
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug, it seems that you’re trying to avoid the possibility that certain bad Jewish behaviors could be connected to inherent traits of Jewish people, opting to blame it on other things like atheism. Asians are the race with the highest percentage of atheists in the U.S. and are high achieving, yet they aren’t engaging in the kinds of behaviors Buford mentioned at any level close to that of Jews, nor are they being accused of it by the antisemites. Perhaps being an atheist makes a Jew (or anyone) more inclined to bad behavior, but surely you’re not so “race blind”… Read more »

Elliot
Elliot
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug, respectfully, I think you’re only half-right. Ethnically-Jewish communists are and were not religiously-observant Jews. But, of the vast numbers of ethnically-Jewish people who won Nobel prizes in Medicine, Chemistry and Physics, I suspect a clear majority were likewise not religiously-observant either, and they have clearly made the world a better place. (There is an old Jewish joke about anti-semites all wanting to see a Jewish cardiologist if they’re having a heart attack.)

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Elliot

You’re right about that. Orthodox Jews are much less likely than Conservative, Reform, or non-religious Jews to hold post-graduate degrees in secular fields (17% compared with 30%). They marry much younger and have much larger families. Whereas 69% of non-religious Jews marry gentiles, 98% of the Orthodox marry Jews and give a strong religious education to their children. For the ultra-Orthodox like the Haredi or the Chasidim, it’s common for the husbands to be engaged in full-time Torah study while wives work and in-laws help out with the finances and the childcare. Overall, their voting patterns and social values are… Read more »

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Jill, maybe you can tell us what the central text of Orthodox Judaism and explicate the morality it prescribes and its attitude toward Jesus Christ.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Will Travis

Actually there is no single Orthodox Jewish “denomination.” There are the Haredi, the modern Orthodox, and the offshoots such as the Chasidim that grew out of an 18th century mystical revival movement. The central text for all three is the written Torah, the Jewish law given by God to Moses in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures. Talmudic scholars say Torah contains 613 commandments binding on all Jews. The rest of what we call the old Testament and what Jews call the Tanakh is divided into the Prophets and the Writings. The Orthodox believe that when God gave… Read more »

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Doug, Observant Jews still follow a religion that is centered around the rejection of Christ. Again, just read the Talmud. Your “conservative” observant Jews will never fight for America as Christian nation. (Actually, they will almost certainly fight against that). At best, they may argue for “Judeo-Christian” values—a very new, and basically meaningless, term. They typically want America to be a “melting pot” with no distinct religion or people, no preservation of the historic American nation—all while arguing for a Jewish ethnostate in the Middle East. This is what we see with the likes of Shapiro. Also food for thought:… Read more »

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago

Bingo

JG
JG
2 months ago

Pastor Wilson,

Can you elaborate on what you mean regarding “father issues” . . . “whatever the real issues are, which will more likely be father issues than cosmology issues.”

JG
JG
2 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Thanks for the added clarification.

JohnM
JohnM
2 months ago

“…if an unbelieving spouse is willing to submit to the teaching and discipline of the church, then I wouldn’t call them an unbeliever”

Then what would you call them that isn’t a contradiction?

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

My guess is, “believer.”

I think his point is that there’s no real world dilemma here. You don’t force baptism on the unwilling, and there’s no such thing as a “willing to be baptized — given what baptism actually entails — unbeliever”. So baptize the spouse unless she refuses to submit to baptism, after being informed on what baptism actually calls her to.

JohnM
JohnM
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

However, Doug said “unbelieving spouse”. Hypothetically she could smile and submit to baptism without believing. The way Doug put it comes across to me as if we know she doesn’t really believe, but she is willing to submit in the sense of nodding and going along with what is taught and done in the church, so we’ll baptize her anyway and call it good. I would not think that is what Doug meant, but…what did Doug mean?

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

He said “unbelieving spouse” echoing the question. I think it was meant as a turn of phrase, some what facetiously. It’s a pretty long stretch to think that someone could submit to baptism, including all that baptism entails, which includes vows of submission to church authority and the pursuit of the Christian life, without believing. I mean, sure that could happen, but it can happen with people who are not married to Christians who weren’t Christians before that, too. “They might hypothetically be lying” is not a reason to withhold baptism from someone who otherwise qualifies by virtue of their… Read more »

Gray
Gray
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

The entire premise of a military traitor, a Robert Hanssen, a dirty cop, a Caiaphas, a Judas, and an unfaithful spouse is that they most definitely are sworn into an organic covenant. I think that dynamic gives plausibility, and not “a long stretch” to JohnM’s “smile and submit to baptism without believing” concept.

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  Gray

It’s a long stretch that they smile and submit to baptism without fulfilling the normal requirements for baptism. It’s not a long stretch that they smile and submit to baptism without secretly being unfaithful, but that’s not a relevant standard for baptism. Nor was it a relevant standard for Judas being called an apostle, Caiaphas being high priest, or a secretly dirty cop who takes his oath with a clear previous record.

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Or any of the other cases cited, to be clear.

Gray
Gray
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

I was not suggesting that it is or should be “a standard”. My point is that people perform visible symbolic actions for personal reasons separate from the objective intended reason. They do these, smile, nod and plausibly act the part, to accomplish their intended goal. Unless there is overt impeaching evidence to the contrary, all that is left for those administering a rite is extending credence to the “profession”.

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  Gray

The objective intended reason is to incorporate those willing to pledge themselves to Christ, into the church. Those who smile and plausibly act the part are fulfilling that, as they pledge themselves in baptism, even if they do it for secret, wrong motives. Those who do not carry the marks of a sincere faith should be dissuaded from doing that, but more to the point, they should be persuaded to embrace Christ in faith. So it seems to me that those who “smile and act plausibly” are appropriate candidates for baptism, provided the plausibility is maintained long enough to convince… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Those who do not have sincere faith are dead in their sins and cannot pledge themselves to Christ, and of course are not truly willing to do so. They can carry though with an empty formal act, if allowed to, but there is either the objective reality of faith and reconciliation to God, or there is not. I agree with Gray, and I think you, that unless there is a specific reason to think a profession of faith is lacking in sincerity (or understanding) the profession should be accepted and the professor baptized. I do not think we are obligated… Read more »

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Gray

In the For What It Is Worth Category. One of my Southern Baptist friends married a professing Southern Baptist gal. For over twenty years, they traveled all over the world working for Uncle Sam and returned to Alabama on an assignment near her family. At church one Sunday morning, the preacher issued a call for those wanting to be saved to come forward. When everyone opened their eyes, my friend’s wife was up front praying for salvation. He almost fell over. She professed as a teen because all the other teens had walked forward and she didn’t want to be… Read more »

Will Travis
Will Travis
2 months ago

– ”But when envy has metastasized, and gotten to a certain point, it is impossible to hide—kind of like Shylock’s nose. And one of the very first things it does is to draw Shylock’s nose like that.”? – “Carping envy from Gentiles only reinforces Jewish unbelief.” – “When people are envious, and they are looking for a scapegoat, they cannot tolerate the notion that there is an ethnic group out there that is way more disciplined and talented than they are.” The clear corollary is that “antisemitism” (which word is meaningless at this point in our culture, something to which… Read more »

Joshua Lister
Joshua Lister
2 months ago

“As a result, on a daily basis, multiple times a day, I am cordially invited to see Senator So-and-so drop a BOMB on AOC, or to watch as an angry mom OBLITERATES a school board somewhere, or to click on something that will enable me to observe a Texas sheriff WIPE THE FLOOR with some ding dong at CNN. It has to be acknowledged that a lot of people on the right appear to like hating.”

Doug should know that Ben Shapiro is the biggest offender when it comes to labeling videos where he DESTROYS LIBERALS.

kyriosity
kyriosity
2 months ago

Could you write sometime about your Gab strategy in general? You are posting some stuff there that you don’t post elsewhere (or perhaps it’s recycled material?) and it attracts a crowd that make the worst times of the Mablog comments look like a basket of sleeping bunnies. Just about every time I venture into your Gab comments, I end up blocking some horrorshow (usually an anti-Semetic horrorshow). I’m sure you’re hoping to accomplish something over there, but I’m not sure what…or if it’s working. My best guess is that you’re seeing it as a new mission field, and you’ve set… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by kyriosity
Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

Just remember your (and my, and everybody’s, for the most part) ancestors. We all come from savages, except those of us who came from Jews who believed early on.

kyriosity
kyriosity
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Of course. I was merely highlighting the fact that some in our culture seem to have returned to that status.

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago
Reply to  kyriosity

Gab is wild, that’s for sure. But it’s also the best place on the internet. :)

It’s the only useable social media that’s not controlled and censored by the left. It’s the only one run by an average American guy (who also happens to be a dear brother in Christ). It’s the only one that will stand up for Christians, for America, and for your freedom of speech.

There are a lot of crazies. But there also a lot of decent folk, including a lot of believers.

So come on over and join the party. (If you haven’t already)

Nathan James
Nathan James
2 months ago

Let’s all take a moment to admire the chutzpah of Jonathan, a man who has made race one of defining issues of his life, and is quite of proud of treating people of one “race” differently from those of another “race,” having had the unvarnished gall to come in here and accuse Wilson of endorsing racism for a policy that is not racist under any definition of the word. And my goodness how effective he was with this blatant, hypocritical trolling. And why? Because the word racism carries so much emotional baggage and social stigma. Literally nothing makes American jump… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan James

St. Paul also made race one of the defining issues of his life, so in that I’m in good company. I’m not sure what you mean when you say that I’m proud of treating people of different races differently. Devoid of context that would usually be taken in a way that would be a straight lie as an accusation against me, so you should probably clarify. And if you have a problem with anything I actually said, then I suggest you respond directly to the objectionable statement and form a logical argument against it. Simply sticking a character attack at… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Equating your comment diarrhea with St. Paul? Good grief, Jonathan, go get help…and get a job while you’re at it, as you clearly have way too much free time. I just checked back in after a busy day–ever had one of those?

The issues Paul addressed have nothing to do with you or your ilk. Here’s a 10-year old Coates article for your next meditation session, though.
The Unbearable Whiteness of Pro-Lifers and Pundits – The Atlanic

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You loudly denounce white Fred Reed — and those who link him — as racist.

Meanwhile, you refuse to denounce black Ta-Nehisi Coates, who pridefully boasts of being racist, as racist.

And then, as if to prove your prowess at walking right into utility poles, you approvingly link to a Coates article pushing for racialist wealth transfers.

All in one thread.

No partiality here!

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

It gets even weirder with Coates. He was so jaded by a black guy getting killed by a black cop that “he watched 9/11, slightly stoned, on the roof of his Brooklyn building, he recalls that he felt nothing at all. “You must always remember,” Coates writes to Samori, “that the sociology, the history, the economics, the graphs, the charts, the regressions all land, with great violence, upon the body.”
The Hard Truths of Ta-Nehisi Coates — NYMag

Yeah, 3,000 people killed. No big deal. I mean most were whites and Jews, right? Dirty businessmen, cops, firefighters and such.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

The man literally wrote a comic book about the power fantasy of a superior black ethnostate.

Jonathan is literally promoting someone who approves of the very thing that provoked Jonathan’s outrage.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Wait, you think Wakanda is proscriptive? And you think Wakanda is a “Black ethnostate”?

I am “literally promoting” an article about history. Since no one in this thread has given any indication that they’ve found the slightest bit objectionable in that article, they are reduced to making false claims about….comic books.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I don’t think Wakanda was originally designed as proscriptive. I think, and am probably more qualified to speak on comic books than most you’ll meet, I’ve actually done some small scale professional writing about them, that both the current Marvel staff, as well as current Marvel readers have turned Wakanda into a proscriptive black nationalist fantasy. “ no one in this thread has given any indication that they’ve found the slightest bit objectionable in that article” Other than that it doesn’t prove the point it attempts to prove, as I already explained and you made no effort to oppose. “they are… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Once again, you make a false claim in the desire to divert from the conversation for the sake of character attacks. I quoted from the exact Fred Reed article that he linked. Fred Reed made those statements in that article. Was that not supposed to be the argument he was making, since that was the link he made? The issue was not some vague “linking Fred Reed” or “promoting Fred Reed”. It was explicitly promoting a racist argument and then doubling down on it. And you don’t even have to rely on the article he linked because that posted said… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You asked for an example of how you’re treating people of different races differently.

I give you what you want, and then you proceed to throw a tantrum. Go figure.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

If that were true, you would have quoted something from the Coates article I linked, just like I quoted the argument from the Reed article he linked. But you couldn’t do that, so you made a false equivalency by trying to randomly find something in Coates’s past. Since that’s not what I did for Reed, how can you complain that I didn’t do it for Coates?

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Um, no. That’s not how it works. We can easily demonstrate your rank hypocrisy without having to quote from a racist article you linked written by a racist hack.

You denounce Reed for racism all while excusing Coates, an admitted out-and-proud racist.

The only way to prove me wrong is for you to denounce Coates, specifically, and without qualification.

But you won’t do it. You’re partial to Coates’ brand of racial acrimony. It’s to make up for the guilt you feel from having white-flighted from Inglewood.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I denounced the argument by Reed that Cherrera linked. I quoted from that exact article, and Cherrera showed with his later statements that he agreed with those quotes. You can’t find a single objectionable quote from the Coates article I linked years ago, so you’re desperately grasping at other Coates quotes from pieces I’ve never linked or promoted and you’ve never even read.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No, you pieced together quotes and made it look like a completely different argument that Reed was making. You’re bearing false witness. Then you accuse others of something you did yourself. Are you going to repent of lying and hypocrisy or keep doubling down? That’s the only question so address right now. You may want to refresh yourself on Rev. 21:8 as liars are part of the list.

Bobby
Bobby
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Spud, you need to polish up on you reading comprehension. Your quoting from the Bible is hilarious. I bet Jesus got a chuckle out of it.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Bobby

Yeah, uh, no. I don’t take reading comp tips from people who specialize in asinine one-and-two liners. As for your claim earlier that Justin believes in a flat earth, care to provide a source? Or do you just throw out wild accusations and hope a few stick?

Bobby
Bobby
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Go grab your tiki torch and look through his previous posts from earlier this year. Or better yet, ask him yourself. He’s been commenting here the last two days.

I get the impression from your posts that you don’t take advice or correction from anyone. That’s a pity.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Bobby

It doesn’t work like that. You made the accusation. The burden of proof is on you. Links, please. And specifically links about flat earth stuff….not just any random thing you disagree with him about.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

What argument do you claim I was saying Reed made that he didn’t make?

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You didn’t denounce any argument. You simply assumed any racism on Reed’s — and Cherrera’s by extension — part is self-evident and dismissed it on that basis. I have yet to see any rebuttal from you on any of Reed’s points. I especially love your squawking about “desperately grasping at other Coates quotes from pieces you’ve never linked or promoted” — right after you desperately grasped at a Reed quote, wrenched it out of context from an article Cherrera never linked or promoted, then proceeded to pass it off as part of the article Cherrera linked. No one else here… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I quoted from Reed in great length and not the least bit “out of context”, and no one has demonstrated anything out of context about any of the Reed quotes. I could quote much more from that same Cherrera article that continues along the same lines. I never intentionally passed off any quote as coming from an article other than where it came. In my original comment I never attributed any quotes as coming from an incorrect article. Later I stated that I quoted from the very article and argument that Cherrera had linked, which was true. My mistake was… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Bull. I demonstrated in comment 238968 how you dishonestly inserted the first paragraph of your “quote” from a different Reed article and ripped it out of context. You kept saying over and over that you quoted from Cherrera’s EXACT article. It took effort for you to include that first paragraph; therefore it was intentional. Stop trying to weasel out of your dishonesty, Jonathan. I demonstrated in comment 238966 how you took the third paragraph from your “quote” out of context. Stop trying to weasel out of your dishonesty, Jonathan. You really are a piece of work. But please, by all… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I DID quote from Cherrera’s EXACT article. Multiple times. My statement that I quoted from that article was never false. Cherrera posted a link to push a position and I quoted from the exact article he posted with that exact position he pushed.

I also quoted from another article where he explained his position further.

And no, none of it was “out of context” in the least.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

You know what? You’ve been braying for that Coates quote from your article that I find objectionable, so here it is: “White America” is a syndicate arrayed to protect its exclusive power to dominate and control our bodies.When people who are not black are interested in what I do, frankly, I’m always surprised. I don’t know if it’s my low expectations for white people or what.These results are dispiriting, but the crime with which reparations activists charge the country implicates more than just a few towns or corporations. The crime indicts the American people themselves, at every level, and in… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

I hope you’re assuming that other posters realize you’re trolling.

But it’s interesting that the part of that quote that actually comes from the article I posted doesn’t mention anything racist and also directly contradicts your previous claim about the article.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I DID quote from your EXACT article. Multiple times. I quoted the argument from the Coates article you linked. No, I posted Coates’ exact position and quoted from the article Jonathan posted in length. I quoted from Coates in great length and not the least bit “out of context”, and no one has demonstrated anything out of context about any of the Coates quotes. The part you keep purposely neglecting is that it is the POSITION that was racist. Everything I quoted is in relation to a particular racist position of Ta-Nehisi Coates that is the exact same position that… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

False equivalency? Oh, please. We have An older guy who’s seen an undeniably huge drop of standards in education, morality and civility and pragmatically believes (right or wrong) a voluntary segregation of the races is the best solution. He’s talking about the state, so Paul’s teachings on Jew/Gentile relations in the church (which was a VERY different situation anyway) isn’t exactly the most relevant comparison. And… A guy so enamored with himself and imaginary racism (black guy getting killed by a black cop) that he can watch hundreds of people die and not care. And it’s not like Coates grew… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I quoted the argument from the Reed article he linked.”

No you didn’t! The first paragraph you quoted (starting with “White nationalists…”) was nowhere in the article I linked. It might have been in something else Reed wrote, maybe something to which he linked. But it wasn’t in the article. Now are you going to own up to your hypocrisy here or double down again? You’re doing what you accused FP of doing.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Good catch. It took effort for Jonathan, who claimed to quote from the exact article you linked, to slip in that first paragraph. That was no accident. In addition, Jonathan deliberately left out significant context in his third quoted paragraph: Dangerously, the government forbids white parents to have schools teaching what they regard as desirable material at what they regard as acceptable academic levels while requiring what they regard as civilized behavior. White parents are forced to see their children subjected to what they regard as obscene, semiliterate, violent, stupid, a culture dominated by what seems to them, (and would… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

So, it turns out the first paragraph Jonathan quoted that starts with “White nationalists…” is from a Fred Reed article from 2016. Of course, Jonathan, honest chap that he is, left off the rest of the paragraph: “White nationalists” as they call themselves would like to US to be close to one hundred percent white. So would I. So would many tens of millions of Americans who do not call themselves white nationalists, but are. Diversity causes nothing but trouble, and is doing so now. However, America can’t be completely white, or even close. The time for that idea is… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

Jonathan “you repeatedly bring up a Coates article I linked years ago.” Also Jonathan: “Let me furiously search and find an out-of-context quote from 2016 to insert into part of a June 2021 article and hope no one notices.” He’s certainly learned from social media “fact checkers.”

Elliot
Elliot
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Why is it that an article by Pastor Wilson about anti-semitism leads to dozens of posts about black-white relations in the U.S.? Are people somehow under the mistaken impression that Jews are not caucasian?

Dave
Dave
2 months ago
Reply to  Elliot

Yes.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago
Reply to  Elliot

I don’t know how common it is, but i had a long argument with Armin about it a year or so ago. He, following McDonald, is convinced that ashkenazi jews aren’t caucasian, or are “mixed.” I did my best, but facts only go so far… I’m sure you could search for the thread if you are feeling masochistic.

Elliot
Elliot
2 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Not feeling that masochistic, thanks. Anyone who thinks Ashkenazi Jews are not caucasian is simply delusional.

Last edited 2 months ago by Elliot
Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Elliot

Well, if we want to get back to the topic at hand (some 3 days later), here are some true Jew haters. Unfortunately for the woke, “blame everything on whitey” crowd, they ain’t white and they ain’t Christians.
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2021/07/koranic-jew-hatred-preached-jersey-ignored-no-fear-andrew-g-bostom/

Elliot
Elliot
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Just read this thread (and the links some people posted) and you will find plenty of Jew-hatred from people who claim to be white Christians.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Elliot

At least it’s out there in everyone’s face, whether they wish to admit it or not.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

The vast majority of what I quoted was from the article itself, and you’ve had no problem stating you agree with that. The first paragraph was where he put a name on the things he said in the article. You’re right that that one paragraph wasn’t in the article, I should have introduced that paragraph separately from the others.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Oh, so it’s okay for you to use quotes from outside linked articles to support your claims of racism, but not anyone else.

Sure hope that picture of you next to the dictionary entry for hypocrite is a good one.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

The part you keep purposely neglecting is that it is the POSITION that was racist. Everything I quoted is in relation to a particular racist position of Fred Reed that is the exact same position that Cherrera linked and supports. Over the course of years of attacking me regarding the Coates article, you continue to fail to quote a single passage from the article I linked or from anything Coates has ever written to support that position. In fact in this very comment section you said falsehoods about Coates’s position in the article. If you find the article so reprehensible,… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Nope. You pieced together quotes from different articles and made it look like a completely different argument that Reed was making. That’s called being dishonest. And you still can’t tell us exactly what’s racist — that is, how he thinks a certain race is inherently inferior — about Reed’s position. All you can do is string together out-of-context quotes, then point and shriek. Sorry to burst your bubble, kiddo, but pointing and shrieking does not an argument make. Meanwhile, I’ve given you Coates quotes that clearly communicate his opinion that whites are inferior. But, according to the silly rules you… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

No, I posted Reed’s exact position and quoted from the article Cherrera posted in length. And I posted exactly what he said, in that very article, that was racist. Cherrera has still failed to show how his position was any different from the position of Reed in the very article Cherrera posted. Meanwhile, you have still failed to give a single quote from the historical piece that Coates wrote (a link I posted years ago which you’re still fixated on). Realizing that you couldn’t find a single objectionable word in the link, you’ve instead engaged in ad hominem attacks by… Read more »

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Everything I quoted is in relation to a particular racist position of Fred Reed that is the exact same position that Cherrera linked and supports.”

Wait, what? Talk about doubling down. So you’ve answered my question, Jonathan. You’re not going to own up to your hypocrisy and lying, which is much greater than anything you’ve accused others of. You only made a “mistake,” kind of like Bill Clinton did with Monica L.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

Everything I quoted is in relation to a particular racist position of Fred Reed that is the exact same position that Cherrera linked and supports.

And you haven’t shown otherwise in the least. You think that if you and FP repeat otherwise often enough, people will assume you somehow demonstrated it somewhere.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

To whom are you even talking? You reference one person in your first paragraph and someone else in the next. You appear so hysterical that you can’t think straight nor admit cobbling quotes from articles 5 years apart (that were out-of-context, thank you) into what was allegedly a single verbatim quote isn’t misrepresenting someone. Again, are you going to admit your lies and hypocrisy or not?

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

No, I never once claimed it was a single verbatim quote, nor did I post anything out-of-context.

The rest of your comment is just internet trolling and getting tiresome.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan: I never claimed to quote Reed verbatim! Also Jonathan: Everything I said about Reed was EXACT! The EXACT article that Cherrera linked! The EXACT position! I never took anything out of context! You’re all a bunch of redneck, hillbilly liars! The Reed quote, not from the article Cherrera linked, with context in bold: “White nationalists” as they call themselves would like to US to be close to one hundred percent white. So would I. So would many tens of millions of Americans who do not call themselves white nationalists, but are. Diversity causes nothing but trouble, and is doing… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Jonathan: I never claimed to quote Reed verbatim!

That’s not what I said and everyone can see it. You not only commit false witness, but you clearly know you do.

I ask you again – are you a Christian, FP, and do you try to follow the Bible? I want you do answer this question directly.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Did I use quotation marks?

Your hypocrisy is off the charts. In case you’ve forgotten, there’s a transcript. According the that transcript, you claimed multiple times that you took nothing, NOTHING out of context.

Are you a Christian, Jonathan, and do you try to follow the Bible?

I want you to answer this question directly.

Last edited 2 months ago by The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Yes, I have been a devout Christian since my sophomore year in college and I strive to follow Jesus with everything in my life.

Now can you answer the same question?

Last edited 2 months ago by Jonathan
Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

A “devout” Christian who plays the harlot with race baiters, communists, the pro abortion crowd, sodomites and pretty much everyone else on the wrong side of history…eh, no.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

What random slander. Once again you resort to ad hominems instead of addressing the issue.

And to be clear, are you denying that I am a follower of Christ? Because that is a very, very serious accusation, and if made unjustly is more serious for the accuser than for the accused.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan: “The part you keep purposely neglecting is that it is the POSITION that was racist.”

Well, what a co-inki-dink! That’s the exact issue I have with Coates and his “case for reparations.”

Won’t be any skin off my back if I have to keep beating you over the head with this point. I rather like clubbing you with your own overheated rhetoric.

Cherrera
Cherrera
2 months ago

Make no mistake, Jonathan will get the last word unless he’s hiding under his bed in fear of the Delta variant (or whatever they want us to be mortified of right now).

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Cherrera

I’m looking forward to getting the Gamma variant. Maybe it will turn me into The Hulk.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago

Except you never even quoted from the article or his position on reparations at all. In fact, you lied about what his position on reparations is (claiming that he wants all whites to give money to all blacks) and refused to provide evidence for your lie even after I called you out on it.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
2 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Sorry kiddo, but using the Goebbels method doesn’t automatically make what you say true.

It does make you sound like a broken record, though.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago

I only poke my head in here every once in awhile these days, being on 4 kids now being somewhat……astoundingly exhausting. The community hasn’t changed much.

Do you suppose we could convince Armin and Jonathan to have a formal cage match? I’d be happy to commentate. Perhaps Jill might have a talent for costuming.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

Remove the hidden camera from my house. I don’t know any other way in which you could have known that I sew very good knock-off Disney princess costumes and sometimes even sell them. According to my best calculations, I earn about a dollar an hour. I have sewn costumes for men but with little interest. If it doesn’t have lace, ruffles, and boning in the bodice, it’s not girly enough for me.

Jane
Jane
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I was racking my brains trying to remember if you’d mentioned your costuming hobby on here, because I, too, was surprised at Justin’s reference. I figured you must have and I just missed it, but I couldn’t recall your doing so.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

There used to be a gentleman on this board whose wife knew Martha Pullen. For me, this was a “Ah, did you once see Shelley plain, And did he stop and speak to you. And did you speak to him again?”kind of moment. So I must have mentioned sewing at some point, but possibly not the Disney princess costumes.

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
2 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Really, I was just trying to pick a task vaguely evocative of professional wrestling and a consistent member of the community. Jill’s just who came to mind.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
2 months ago

FYI to the webmaster. Several comments (at least 4 or 5 between Mr. Crimethink and myself, as well as others) were deleted during the… outage?… not a big deal, it was just a combox argument, but I thought I should report it.

Josh
2 months ago

In regards to the Nephilim post, I disagree that there was genetic engineering going on. It is not possible for angelic beings to directly physically alter DNA – they are abstract beings with subtle bodies. When the human spirit is hybridised with an angelic spirit, it’s a merging of spiritual aspects of being, not the physical.

Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago

Doug, Hear me out–I promise I will not call you either an “anti-semite” or a Zionist. ;) In Antisemitism as a False Flag Operation your main thrust is an argument against rising “anti-semitism,” especially as it is perceived to be a threat amidst growing sentiment for Right-wing nationalism/populism in America. The problem is, enmity between Jews and Christians is inevitable. Judaism rejects Christ–it is a fundamental aspect of their religion today, perhaps the defining feature. We must resist the notion that Judaism today is the same religion the Israelites adhered to in the OT. Their rejection of Christ and hatred… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Mitch
Jill Smith
Jill Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Mitch

I don’t think that antisemite/antisemitic are very useful terms. Willhelm Marr, a German journalist who first coined the term “antisemitismus” in 1881, was seriously not into Jews. He wrote unpleasant pamphlets about Jewish usurpers taking over Germany. But, in Germany in 1881, the only word that described the feelings of Marr and his friends was Judenhasser, Jew-hater, and he thought that sounded a little unclassy. Hence antisemitism and antisemite.

Last edited 2 months ago by Jill Smith
Mitch
Mitch
2 months ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

I’d be happy if those terms disappeared.

I don’t consider myself a “Jew-hater.” And I don’t think I could be cast as one.

I have, however, been accused of “anti-semitism.” Because the term is flexible enough that they can find a way to throw it at you if you look at someone sideways. But it is *always* assumed to mean “genocidal extremist” once applied for any reason. It’s one of those words that exists only to make the subject a pariah.

And that’s a good way to ruin someone’s life. I’ve seen it happen.

Jonathan
Jonathan
2 months ago
Reply to  Mitch

I’d agree on that, if for no other reason than that I’ve often seen the term applied to people merely upon arguing for the rights of Palestinians….who are themselves Semitic peoples!

“anti-Jewish” or “hater of Jews” or even “racist against Jews” would seem to be more accurate terms, and while they certainly would be distorted as well at least it would be more clear what the user of the terms is distorting.