Letters About All These Bog Plosts

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So Aren’t You Tired of the Election Yet?

I greatly appreciate your ministry and have been blessed for years by your incisive analysis. I write out of concern for your comments on election fraud, which are uncharacteristically not incisive.

One rather tiring part of this whole election affair is from my fellow conservatives who point to something they saw on Twitter and say “looks like fraud! I’m just saying there should be people looking closely into this!” Then, when “this” is actually looked into, said people do not themselves acknowledge the looking into. Case in point, the “suitcasegate” mentioned in a recent blog that was based off of a misleadingly edited 90 seconds of surveillance footage. The good news is that we have eight hours of the rest of the footage, and it wasn’t anything fraudulent! Same thing with your claim about PA absentee ballots that could be falsified with a five minute search on the PA sec of state page. And given the fact that two hand recounts show no “vote flipping” in Georgia, we can pretty safely say that the Dominion conspiracy has been falsified too (not to mention, Trump won 12/14 counties in PA that used Dominion systems). Sharpiegate, over-100% turnout in Michigan, etc. etc. All of these are demonstrable lies that still get regularly circulated.

I share your disdain for leftists, throwing their lefty fits. But conservatives like me are not rejecting the idea that things should be looked into. We are tired of people like you not even looking into them, and then asserting that nobody has.

Lin Wood, Powell, & co have all demonstrably lied before federal courts. Powell badly [baldly] cropped the signature off of a PDF to claim in a sworn exhibit that GA never signed its contract with Dominion. 4 trump-affiliated attorneys, including Rudy Giuliani, have disavowed claims of fraud in federal court in three different states. The Trump campaign has not appealed their Third Circuit blowout loss written by a Trump-appointed judge, even though we were assured eight days ago that it was all part of the plan to get to SCOTUS.

We are not the ones equivocating on the word “evidence,” as you recently accused us of doing. We have asked the Trump attorneys to be true to their word when they said they would demonstrate fraud in court. They have been unable to do so. And because you cannot do so, you fall back on an argument ad incredulum: “how could Biden have done that!? Look at how little he campaigned!” Keep in mind that (1) social media algorithms keep you from seeing his stuff as much as you see pro-Trump stuff;

(2) the mainstream media gave him free campaigning 24/7, which allowed him to hide in his basement and not reveal how poor of a candidate he was;

(3) Trump himself ran his campaign like it was 2016 all over again, which was less effective as a campaign strategy against someone who wasn’t Hilary Clinton.

@ag_hamilton does an excellent job on Twitter examining election fraud claims. He links to primary sources, not mainstream media articles. Brad Heath is good too, but I don’t think he’s conservative so maybe you don’t trust him at all no matter how many PACER documents he links to.

You wrote on the pages of this blog about a month and a half ago that you thought there was no way Biden would win without cheating.

It shows.

Kelli

Kelli, here is the difficulty. I can understand someone having your views. I do think that reasonable people can have them. But part of maintaining “reasonable people cred” means acknowledging when the other side has made a good point — which I have done repeatedly throughout this fiasco. Are you willing to acknowledge that there are some things about this election that are extremely troubling? Or does the 2020 presidential election smell clean and pure to you?

Re: the election mess. You raise all good points, although the Benford’s Law is not reliable for detecting election fraud according to a few independent experts in statistics, certified by Twitter and Facebook. But the batches of 99% Biden votes, appearing in the middle of the night on 11/4, after counting had supposedly been suspended, is more than a little suspicious. I think the real problem we have is that so many “good” people are telling us there is absolutely no evidence of fraud, which means stop believing what our eyes are telling us, and trust our tech and main stream media masters. The emperor Biden really is wearing clothes, they assure us. Of course, it is troubling that there appears to be no “hard” indisputable forensic evidence of fraud, but it doesn’t help that there appear to be many missing USB drives and election officials rushing to wipe the memories of election machines while claiming that all the envelopes and ballots apparently went missing or were “accidentally” shredded, so sorry, no paper trail either. But trust us, everything was on the up and up, I mean even MOST REPUBLICANS agree there wasn’t widespread fraud, so TRUST US . . . But at what point, even without a confiscate server from Germany, does all this piling up circumstantial evidence reach the point where even skeptical people have to agree that this election made Iranian and Venezuelan elections look legitimate by comparison?

Aragorn Ranger

Hey, Aragorn. Always wanted to meet you. Amen to all that, and I do want to note that I have seen some things that indicate that Benford’s Law might not as strong an indicator as I argued. But I think it is still valuable as a possible indicator.

Article: “A Grease Spot on the Garage Floor” Erickson said, “When you believe Dominion Voter Systems stole the election or more people voted than were registered to vote, both of which are lies, you harm your ability to share the truth of the gospel because one who so easily embraces lies will be treated skeptically.”

So in other words, if I want to maintain any credibility as a preacher of the gospel, then I must accept the narrative established by big tech and the main-stream media? How utterly blue-pilled! Not to mention manipulative of Christians who care about truth just as well as the salvation of the nations! Yet as a Calvinist, this bullet bounces off my chest in classic Superman fashion. Monergistic regeneration trumps skepticism of all kinds. Jonah had to be the worst evangelist in history:

“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown” (Jonah 3:4).

No gospel, just condemnation. And yet…

“So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them” (Jonah 3:5).

We preach that God the Son became a man, did miracles, lived perfectly, died for our sins, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again to judge the living and the dead. What part of that message is not already a stumbling-block to the skeptic? We already preach a message that’s unbelievable to the spiritually dead and carnally minded. Yet the “weakness” of God is stronger, and the “foolishness” of God is wiser than men. Though he be a Stumbling-block and Rock of offense, Jesus will yet conquer the world.

As Christians, we must be both seekers of truth and proclaimers of the gospel, regardless of how the world responds. Being a Calvinist helps us to be “scorn proof.” Though I am responsible to be a witness in this world, I’m glad that my own proneness to err, supposed gullibility, or slandered reputation won’t stop Jesus from redeeming his elect.

My belief in the complete sovereignty of God also gives me unshakable comfort concerning the outcome of this farce of an election (or anything else for that matter). Regardless of who sits in the Oval Office over the next four years, I find it incredibly ironic that our President, who continues to defy the expectations of conservatives and dash the hopes of the left, is named “Trump.” God certainly has a sense of humor.

Joshua

Joshua, thanks.

What are you talking about? 7 followers? Why does that matter? Either his content is worth responding to or it is not. Popularity doesn’t seem like a thing worthwhile to care about. How many unpopular prophets have there been? Don’t get why numbers matter. Nicki Minaj’s Youtube channel has 21.8 followers. Should I listen to her on politics? Theology? :)

Michael

Michael, I didn’t disparage that gentleman for having seven followers. I did it because he announced, from that platform, ex cathedra, that somebody else was an idiot.

NQN

As someone who has read your blog for the last ten years, and who deeply appreciates your unmatched sanity and wit, I have to say that both this year’s and last year’s NQN seemed, well, underwhelming. However, I would hasten to add that nothing you’ve said in those months has become any less controversial, only that the world has taken such a Dionysian turn of late that responding to current events in the manner they deserve seldom allows for nuance. So when — oh, I don’t know, say — poncy PCA seminarians start talking about bringing queer treasure into New Jerusalem, there’s not much room left for subtlety in having to reply, “Yeah, no, I don’t think so, gross.” Thus, for me, everything you have written between early 2018 and now has been one, big NQN almost by necessity.

Nuance is a feature of civilized discourse, which has vanished from our society like “dew off a melon in August,” to coin a phrase. Since Trump, it seems we are all barbarians now, and barbaric discourse is best met with unvarnished, unflinching response. (One wonders who coarsened our national conversation: Trump, or the people who opposed him? Methinks Trump only exposed the fact that respectability was a cloak our barbarian elites — both evangelical and secular — have worn over their stinking, earthy togs for some time.) Of course, Christian teaching, while salty, is not coarse salt. Unvarnished doesn’t mean unclean. We don’t match their now-ubiquitous use of the ‘f’ word in every conversation with similar blue language in ours. When they beckon, “Oh, there’s some lovely filth down here!”, we look genteel simply by not getting down on our knees to inspect the quality of the filth. But there’s not much room for a nuanced, “You might get whiter whites and longer-lasting colors if you switched to Tide” when they’ve made it manifestly evident that they’re content to live in the muck.

So keep lighting things on fire for the NQN promotional videos if you’d like. I just don’t know if it will have the desired effect when all the other optics in our culture are of a flaming dumpster rolling quickly downhill towards the Marathon station. Instead of fire, maybe you should try the Monty Python bit and simply walk through town in a clean shirt and pants. Some honest pagan will turn and say to his friend, “He must be a Christian. How do I know? Because he hasn’t got sh-t all over him.”

Nate

Nate, thanks. And for what it is worth, I think you make a really valid point. But we might be able to squeeze out a few more years if we move to high explosives.

No Quarter November For the second year now, a group of men have met in a garage with a pirate flag to discuss NQN articles every Friday in November. Qualifications were disallowed, as were statements or rebuttals that began with “I feel.” This ideological fight club is responsible for at least one upcoming birth (last year’s NQN discussed sterilization), and this year a half-dozen men prayed over an unbeliever with serious questions. We are sharpened, emboldened, and encouraged as a result. All this is to say, thank you.

Nicolas

Nicolas, thank you. Great idea, man. NQN small groups!

A Disappearing App?

Does Canon Press have any plan for if—when—the app gets cast out from the approved app stores into the outer darkness? It does not seem at all beyond the realm of possibility. Perhaps something self-hosted on the web?

It is a sort of lateral move to escape from Amazon’s clutches into the embrace of Apple and Google, I think.

Still, I’m really enjoying the content, and I’m glad that (for the time being) we have it.

Sean

Sean, it is not as though it has not occurred to us.

For the post “Some November 2020 Game Film” Hi there,

I’ve got a niggling thought in my mind about the torrent of content soon to come via the Canon App. The app is under the jurisdiction of . . . Apple. And Google. What’s the plan when one or both of them hit the big red Cancel button for the app?

Thanks,

Micah

Micah, as above, this point is not lost on us. But I do think we have more options and escape routes with the app.

Blue States Exodus

Your posts about the exodus out of blue states are resonating with my wife and me, and it made me want to ask a question. I pastor a church in Illinois, about a half hour from the Wisconsin border. Wisconsin is by no means red, but it’s better than our current situation in terms of taxes, cost of living, and COVID nonsense. I’m motivated by wanting my kids to grow up in a different environment than the one we’re in now, but our options in Illinois are very limited. We’ve been considering crossing the border while I continue pastoring the congregation, since it would still be within a 30-40 minute commute. What are your thoughts on how close to the church building a pastor ought to live? Are these the wrong motivations for moving? What should we be considering that we may be missing?

Mike

Mike, those are excellent reasons for moving, and I believe that it would be possible to be an effective pastor from 30 minutes away.

Masked Obedience

I’ve been very encouraged by your writing and the rest of your ministry. Top the point: I would love to hear your comments and potential pushback on this recent TGC article about whether masks are Christian conscience issue.

Gordon

Would you engage with Erik Raymond’s contention that one should wear a mask because it is not a matter of conscience, but civil disobedience? Thanks.

Ted

Gordon and Ted, there are a number of possible responses here, but let me limit myself to three. First, this is not how conscience issues work. Even on the supposition that anti-maskers are being overly-scrupulous, you don’t deal with the overly-scrupulous by publishing an article at TGC, and continuing to mandate conformity. You accommodate those with scruples. Put the anti-maskers in the balcony. Masked elders should hold a separate service for the anti-maskers, etc. You don’t force the vegetarian to eat the brisket. And that is on the assumption that the anti-maskers are wrong. But are they? So second, who or what is the existing authority? In my state, the orders and restrictions have been illegal. The governor does not have the authority that he claims. Neither does the mayor. So if a political authority requires you to do something that the Constitution does not allow him to require of you, and you obey him, the two of you together are violating Romans 13. And then third, just to make this a little more festive, let us create a little scenario that will illustrate the inconsistency on this in the soft Reformed evangelical world. Let us say that the governor’s restrictions are modest, and allows for people to worship without masks. Let us say that the elders of the church are of a similar mind, and don’t require masks, but only encourage them. A woman in the congregation has conscience issues about wearing a mask, but her husband, kind of a bully, borderline abusive but nothing overt or illegal, demands that she wear a mask to church. Using the reasoning of this article, should she?

Re: Who Exactly Is Standing on the Oxygen Hose? That rather seems to be the point, doesn’t it? It’s all centered around masks, of course, but the real issue is control. And to drive the point home, the rules are designed to be obviously insane so that even the most obtuse amongst us can’t miss the point. Yet there do seem to be some amongst us who don’t get it.

I’m reminded of the Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times.” What with The Great Reset, it may be a Chinese curse indeed.

Dave

Dave, yes. All about control.

While I agree that what you describe is a component of “what’s on the hose,” I believe the largest driving force right now is fear. It has now been drummed in to the population through most information outlets that the mild-mannered seemingly well young man or woman that you pass in the store, or the sidewalk, or the path, with nary a sign of a sniffle, is in a very real way Is potentially you and your families agent of death.

People can’t believe that we have far less control than they thought we had, particularly over things medical and infectious, translating to loss of control over their own lives and mortality, and they have been jolted with that realization and they are terrified. Furthermore, we have been told that we can regain that control if only we would all wear these viral-porous masks at all times, for, I don’t know . . . forever.

Another strong contributor to this fear is being innumerate. As one example, we have been informed by innumerate information outlets that the death rate is 2.5%, when that is the case fatality rate and not the infection fatality rate, which is more in the neighborhood of O.25% (the first being the swab positive cases as the denominator, and there is very likely and commonly accepted ~ 10 or so cases not swabbed for everyone that swabs positive, the infection rate). That is about 2.5x the mortality rate of seasonal influenza A and B. Serious, but not plague level. If you interpret these numbers wrongly, and then you think that everyone is at risk equally when in fact the statistical mortality rate from the COVID-19 flu is zero if you are under 40 (for those that just became angry, I said statistically, not actual), and you yourself are innumerate, then you are terrified. Those individuals that are illiterate are obviously and painfully aware of their illiteracy. The innumerate, not so much. You read and hear number garble and you believe whatever you are told, much like my 3-year-old who identifies letters and spaces between them and thinks he’s reading, cute. Being innumerate: dangerous. And terrifying.

Preston

Preston, thanks. I agree. In the previous letter just above this one, I agreed that it was all about control, which is what a handful of people at the top are doing. But the instrument of this control is fear. And a lot of officials are driven by this fear also.

Hello, this is not written in response to a specific post, but revolves around all the COVID questions. From my understanding, both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have not used any form of fetal cells in design and development or production. However, they have both used the HEK293 cell line in the confirmation tests. How is a Christian to think about this? What counsel should the church give to people in jobs that will require the vaccine, such as the military?

Blessings,

Chris

Chris, the response of the whole medical establishment to this mess should be sufficient to make any thoughtful Christian dubious about any proffered vaccine. While I want to wait until it is out and we have a chance to look at it before deciding, my default assumption on this one is nothing doing.

Revisiting History

I’ve recently been enjoying much of what the Canon Press app has to offer. As someone who is very much an auditory learner, I have been greatly blessed by the app’s content.

I was listening to some of the history sessions, particularly in regard to the War for American Independence and the War between the States, and I’ve been surprised by much of what I’m hearing. Being a good government school boy, I thought I knew all I needed to know about either war, but you’ve caused me to want to dive into that history on my own. After all, it is my hope that my wife and I will have children of our own that we must teach the truth to the best of our ability. Do you have any good resources for the study of these portions of our history?

Duane

Duane, I would suggest you start with Singer’s Theological Interpretation of America’s History.

I am an elder in a church that has been conservative in its 60 year history. We are part of the Converge denomination, but in recent years that affiliation has been dormant. We operate very independently. The preaching is expositional. Our membership classes clearly state our conservative views. However, our church is attracting people who are political liberals, in that they vote for candidates who believe abortion is to be decided upon by a woman without judgment, redistribution is appropriate, racial preferences are helpful, and much of the agenda put forth by the Democrat Party. These folks love our programs for their children, our excellent music, and the expository teaching. My heart is concerned that we in leadership are not bringing to their attention sufficiently that their faith should be informing and transforming all aspects of their lives, including who they vote for and what social policies they support. They may influence our congregation to become less conservative, and drift to a more liberal majority. Also, this is harmful to their spiritual health. Do you recommend resources that would help our preaching and teaching in order to bring people to a mature understanding of what Christ’s call on their life means? What should guide us in determining whether a loving rebuke is appropriate if after a sufficient time of teaching on this matter, people are still progressive in their support of policies?

Caleb

Caleb, that is you are attracting such people is very good. But at the same time, you should be doing things, sponsoring things, that will require them to associate publicly with your conservatism. Have the church sponsor a conference, say, on Christian political engagement. If they come along, well and good. If they kick, then you have your conversation starter.

More on Singleness

I just read your article on singleness as suffering/affliction. As a newly engaged and soon-to-be married man and aspiring minister, this article would have saved me so much anxiety in my teen years. I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist revivalist crowd; I can remember wanting to make a ‘decision’ to be single and ignore all women. Of course, I was still attracted to the lovely opposite sex, so I then felt guilty. This article helped to destroy that little vestige of IFB nonsense in me. Much thanks. P.S. You’ve almost made me want to sprinkle my future babies. Almost.

James

James, come on. Just sprinkle the first one.

From “Singleness as Affliction”: “But it would be better to have to flee persecution in your minivan than to stay single with periodic sexual lapses.” Why not say instead, “But it would be better to have to flee persecution in your minivan than to stay single with persistent, strong sexual temptation and unfulfilled sexual longings”?

Although sexual lapses (i.e. sexual sin) may be extremely common even among unmarried believers, such lapses/sins are not inevitable, and believers shouldn’t speak as though they are. “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it” (I Cor 10:13).

Luke

Luke, you are of course right in that there is no excuse for sexual sin. At the same time, one of the things a pastor has to deal with is the reality of actual sin, and actual sin is often an indicator of what a person’s giftedness is not.

Burning Truck

I heard your name a few years back but never really read any of you writings til I saw that guy in a Stetson riding in a burning pickup truck. Liked the cigar, too. I have read several of your Mablogs, just finished Thunderstruck. It has been a year unlike any of my 73 previous years. I appreciate your writings. You might say that they have put snow treads on my faith car during this long season of winter.

Don

Don, thanks.

Library Stuff

I am a new trustee at my local library in MA. I’ve noticed the childrens’ and young adults’ book selection has become more liberal (priming kids to swallow the LGBTQ message). Especially during Covid, a lot of books were changed out and replaced with books of this agenda. I understand that as a public institution, we have to cater to everyone–but we aren’t catering to the traditional family values part of our town. There are biographies on AOC, but none on Trump or Rand Paul or anyone conservative. There aren’t many books for people who have two parents, or don’t think sleeping with your boyfriend is a great idea. How would you suggest I approach this? I’m curious where libraries get their book choices and if there is an alternative I can offer to them when they are placing orders.

Kristen

Kristen, find a popular set of children’s books, written by a Christian, with a mainline New York publisher. But enough about Nate’s Cupboards series. Propose that it be included, and I think you will see exactly what you are up against.

Social Media?

I just finished Ploductivity–lots of good stuff there. Some of the illustrations are just top notch, and I plan to refer to it again and again. But . . . the last chapter on social media?! I’m struggling to see why you would direct young men (whom I am assuming are the primary audience of the book) to get to work posting thoughts on Twitter. It seemed a more prudent moment to tell us to get off our behinds and care for people face to face–like their families for one. There are perhaps a handful of young men and women doing real, substantial work on the Twitters, but they are swallowed up by the countless swarm of men who will have wasted a decade of their life pursuing information they didn’t need to be faithful. Postman asks us, wisely I think, “What NEED is this fulfilling?” If Twitter died tomorrow, I can’t say I think the world would hurt one bit.

And why beat up on Postman? Reading through Technopoly, written in 1992 (published in 93), it’s like he predicted all the ailments of the 2000’s perfectly. He deserves another hearing.

Thank you for your labors, though. You have a unique voice and I’ve benefitted greatly from your work.

Devin

Devin, I have profited from Postman’s stuff, and have taught classes where he has been assigned reading. At the same time, I do think he overstates it a bit — although his criticisms are often on point. I agree that Twitter is a wasteland, which is why Christians ought to be there. And adults can’t know how to be there if young people don’t learn how to be there.

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ron
ron
9 months ago

https://tinyurl.com/y44jkufs

Kazakh Bodybuilder Marries Sex Doll Girlfriend

Idk if he calls her Sally…

Augus Tinian
Augus Tinian
9 months ago

“One can’t believe impossible things,”
Alice laughed.
“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,”
said the Queen.
“When I was your age, I always did it for
half-an-hour a day.
Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many
as six impossible things before breakfast.”
— Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll

Anna
Anna
9 months ago

The above Q&A just confirms how shallow Americans are–especially the Christians…

Bot
Bot
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

🤣

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna,

Sad, but true. Please don’t judge all American or Christians by this lot. These folks are the Special Americans and the Extra Special Christians. As Special Americans, they are chronically aggrieved and take pleasure in blaming others (usually socialists and people who take care of the poor) for their woes. As Extra Special Christians they are also highly susceptible to conspiracy theory dogwhistles and insipid novels.

Bot
Bot
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

👍👍👍👍👍

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Hard to resist low hanging fruit.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

Not blaming. Just observing. There’s a difference. Look it up.

Oh, by the way, kudos re: your circular reasoning regarding Biden’s win. Masterful!

Luigi
Luigi
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

I can smell your arrogance and self-righteousness through the screen

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Luigi

Luigi,

That’s amazing. Some of Doug’s other followers have similar gifts. Give my regards to Mario.

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, There are fine Americans–and some fine American Christians too–I can vouch for that. It’s just when you read some of the stuff above in the Q&A, and (sadly) many of Doug’s posts of late, it’s genuinely scary. So much of it is narrow and juvenile: X-Files-like conspiracies about everything under the sun it seems: anti-science Young Earth theories, Covid denial-&-Covid mask-persecution-complex, climate change denial, election fraud conspiracies, a pro-gun lobby ideology I note, five point Calvinism (so unnecessary), pugnacious patriarchalism, post-millenialism (as unbiblical as pre-millenialism or just “millennialism” in general), etc… In the Land of the Free so many… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna,

And your diagnosis is spot on. If only Wilson would spend 20% of his posts encouraging his audience to reach out to those who are different from them and those who are marginalized.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna,

One thing you have to remember when you venture into Doug World; follow the lucre.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, it’s good to see you back. You are always happy to pound others with great joy in your comments. However, you won’t answer questions put to you. You will not interact as brother to brother. You say that Wilson’s posts are repugnant to you. Yet, you offer no biblical insight. Your comments are to disrupt and not to be as iron on iron between Christian brothers. You fit the Proverbs warning. “There are six things that the Lord hates, Seven that are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

You have me confused with Doug. Take it up with him. Good luck!

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, since I am confused, please tell me what degrees you hold.

You say you are a brother; it’s put up or shut up time. No snark. Just interface as the others here do to work out biblical principles.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

I’ve ignored your incessant requests up until now.

You are fully aware that I asked you for your credentials because of your claims of expertise in virology and epidemiology. That’s a fair question to ask someone who is purporting to have expertise in a specialized field. Turns out you don’t have those credentials. Not even close. I’m sorry if that embarrassed you. It wasn’t my intention.

Maybe the next time you’re tempted to hand out medical advice far beyond your pay grade, you’ll think twice. Let’s hope so.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, it’s good to see you back. I knew what you were fishing for when you asked for my degrees. Unfortunately, life experience for chemical and biological warfare doesn’t give out degrees as you would appreciate but it does give excellent understanding of viral activity. Now, as you hand out snarky advice remember that God hates those who spreads dissension among the brothers. That’s you. Do you really want God to hate you? Your posts do not honor God and offer no biblical advice. They are just rude and disruptive. Come and worship Jesus Christ instead of being just a… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

God is love, not hate.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, God is righteous. That includes love of those who love Him and hate for sin.

The Bible says God hates a brother who spreads strife among Christians. Your posts are not uplifting but are made to pass on your snark and cause dissension.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, what is your “life experience” in viral warfare? I was not aware of warfare involving viruses being a thing that many modern persons had life experience in.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, most folks aren’t aware of what our military trains for or even a small portion of its capabilities. CBRN = Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear That is a capability of our forces and is practiced regularly. The basics are how to use your equipment to stay alive. Leaders are expected to know more. Then depending on the threat area you are given information on expected threats. Some of the threats are viral and the equipment is effective. That’s why it is so easy to read behind the lines on the filter size versus the virus particle size which the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

So you’re clarifying that you don’t actually have real-world experience in this.

We Be Libtards
We Be Libtards
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay,
I wish to commend you. It takes a big man to apologize, especially in a hostile public forum such as this.

I can smell your sincerity and self-abasing loathsomeness through the screen.

My5thBurnerAccount
My5thBurnerAccount
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

So instead of displaying your amazing cognitive skills, it’s nothing but straw men and a list of things that can’t be true because “my beloved experts say so.” Wow, I was expecting more. At least Grouch liked it.

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

“The “American Dream” is, and always was, a nightmare.” ?????

So Anna, are you an American?
And, if the American dream is a “nightmare”, as you put it, what nation has more internal and external benefit to show than America? Even considering it’s failures?

Iraq?
Iran?
China?
Kiribati?
Sweden?

Or, to put it another way, if one demonstrates anything like the presumed personal moral “superiority” of Clay Crouch, that’s a pretty good indication that one is on the wrong track.

Real humility is actually pretty tough isn’t it?

Lecture from Clay in..3, 2, 1……

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

adad0

I’m not an American, no. I live across the pond. But I don’t pretend or imagine for one moment that Europe is morally or spiritually superior to America.

Your question about internal and external benefits is precisely what I mean by saying that the American Dream is a nightmare–it’s all about money–that is how you measure success…

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna,

America, and the Allies, liberated those across the pond, with money,

and our Blood.

And you, my dear, continue to benefit from the blood, far more than the money.

Please consider that your “precision” is not quite as precise as you presume that it is.

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

adad0

You say America and the “Allies” liberated “those across the pond.” We are the “Allies” you are referring to… It works both ways.

Thank God for every American that gave their life in WWII in particular. We are forever in their debt.

But bear in mind that America was not a disinterested partner in the war.

America was fighting for its own interests above and beyond the interests of Europe.

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

….Hence, an internal, and external benefit, and a value, far beyond money, for the world.

And, in point of fact, the Allies DID NOT liberate the Americas in WW 2 as they were not occupied, so it does not quite work both ways.

And, to get back to the original contention, National socialism, and socialism are the demonstrated “nightmares”, compared to Americanism, even with it’s warts, wrinkles and faults.

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

adadO and Anna I have seen a lot of the ‘you owe us due to WW2’ line from Americans very recently. “We bailed you out.” It has become a bit of red rag to a bull. The British were at total war for nearly 6 years. A quarter of its housing stock damaged or destroyed. The country’s accumulated wealth was all spent on its prosecution, whereas the US economy did very well. Wartime austerity carried on in Britain and western Europe for a good decade after the war. British military casualties were not much lower than American in absolute terms,… Read more »

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Nice red herring Ken. Anna’s position that America is a “nightmare”, and that it’s most important value is money, is the issue I was reacting to. Her position is pretty easy to refute, when considering the blood America is willing to put on the line, in addition to its’ treasure.

And to your last line, it is poor form to minimize or quantify ANY blood shed, especially in conflicts where one’s own nation, (the UK and US in this case), was not the aggressor.

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

adad0

I didn’t say, “America is a nightmare.”

I said the “American dream” is…

The American dream, for what it’s worth, is a rank materialistic ideology–the bedrock of US society.

It has destroyed many and led others astray, as scripture says:

“Money is the root of all evil.”

Another Anna
Another Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Classic. You people never read the Bible, do you? Just collect short quotes to use as weapons. It actually says, “the love of money is the root of all evil”. Money is neutral. The one who loves money is going to sin to get more of it. This is the basis for socialist greed: they love money.

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Another Anna

Mea culpa!

You’re absolutely right–scripture says, “The love of money is the root of all evil.”

Now that, even better, describes the “American Dream” down to a tee.

I’m amused, howeve,r that you should say that this is “the basis for socialist greed: they love money.”

I think, rather, that this is a description of the capitalist American greed: they love money.”

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Pssst! A’,
America, the American dream, and US society, is best described in the first sentence of the US Constitution. Highlights are:
Form a more perfect Union
Establish justice
Insure domestic tranquillity
Provide for the common defence
Promote the general welfare
And
Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.

That is not a materialistic ideology.
But like most anything else, the above can’t be achieved without some materials. 😏

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

Leaving aside the blatantly materialistic agenda in the opening sentence of the US Constitution, you’ll see that this “dream” is just that-a dream-but one that has become a nightmare.. There’s very little in terms of perfect union, justice, domestic tranquility, etc., in the US. Your country is in turmoil. Even Doug Wilson thinks that guns might soon be on the street…

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Ruh-Roh!

A European Princess is issuing decoupage dictates on the internet!

Oh wait. I’m not surprised. ; – )

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna, you missed out on the meaning of the American Dream. Yes, the TV makes it into cash, greenbacks, fast living and fast bucks. However, that is not the actual thought behind the dream. Historically, folks immigrated to America for freedom to live and worship in peace and the ability to own property — land — and businesses that they would never have had in their home countries. America enabled them to live, tranquil, quiet lives taking care of their families as 1 Timothy 2 leads us. Please remember that the discord has been building for some time and is… Read more »

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave thanks for this eirenic piece.

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

As opposed to an un-eirenic piece:

“The above Q&A just confirms how shallow Americans are–especially the Christians…” Anna

We Be Libtards
We Be Libtards
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

Hey zero, when I grow up I wanna be a Christian just like you, full of peace, joy, love, and mercy. But the quality I really admire in you is your graciousness.

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  We Be Libtards

Hey Lib’,

Pro tip on growing up: eat your vegetables and do your homework!
As for Grace, I must admit that I do find both Anna’s grace, and your grace pretty amazing, albeit in the ironic sense, not the eirenic sense.

For instance: “Anna : Americans are shallow — it’s a fact!”

In any case, it may well be, that my grace, is in fact, sufficient for you.

; – )

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

adadO – I wouldn’t minimise the contribution of any country that fought in WW2. What I am arguing for is perspective, not trying to dishonour anyone’s war dead. When you consider the cost in American lives gratitude is certainly in order, but it doesn’t leave much room for any notion of Europe being hopelessly in debt to America. The other idea is of America putting up its treasure for the liberation of Europe. That works even less, the American economy doubled in size, that’s not hardship. The repeated claim I have encountered over the last few weeks that “we bailed… Read more »

Adad
Adad
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Wrong rabbit hole Ken. Anna said: “Your question about internal and external benefits is precisely what I mean by saying that the American Dream is a nightmare–it’s all about money–that is how you measure success…” My counter point is, that America put its’ money, and its’ blood where its mouth was, in supporting the UK, and liberating Europe, and the Pacific in WW 2, and throughout our history. We are simply not “all about money”. So, in spite of Annas’ comically personal opinion that “the American Dream is a nightmare–it’s all about money–that is how you measure success…” , our… Read more »

John K
John K
9 months ago
Reply to  Adad

Whatever WWII price the Soviet Union eventually paid, in 1939 Moscow was a co-aggressor with Berlin. They agreed to divide Eastern Europe between themselves. Civilians of the wrong background or opinion were killed in both Nazi and Communist takeovers.

Bot
Bot
9 months ago
Reply to  John K

Mr. John K: 👍👍👍👍👍

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Wonderful riposte Ken–thoughtful, wise, true.

JohnM
JohnM
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Almost 80 years on and the generation that fought the war long retired and fading into history I don’t quite buy the notion that any country still owes another something for whatever they did. I would not take away anything from the lone stand made by the British, or the herculean effort of the Soviet Union. It is fair for Britons ask where would the rest of western Europe be but for Britain. By the same token it is fair to ask what would have come of Britain if the Russians and Americans had not been involved. It is also… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Anna, I find it highly amusing that you, a non-American, think you’re in any position to lecture Americans — one of the most diverse peoples on the planet — about exactly what it is their dreams are. It’s all about money! Nothing more! Because I said so! Perhaps Americans should assume you, because of your nationality, have bad teeth. It requires about the same depth of thought. “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” -often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain; shallow Americans both. So go ahead,… Read more »

Anna
Anna
9 months ago

As it happens, my teeth are quite bad–certainly not as smiley, bright and pearly white as my American cousins’s…The quote you attribute to Lincoln/Twain can in fact be found in the Book of Proverbs. Globally Americans are seen as superficial or shallow. (See the video link below where an American interviews people about America to confirm this general picture.) I believe this superficiality and shallowness has to do with materialism. You escaped the ravages of two World Wars–and have had it good for most of the 20th cent. (and 21st cent). Hence when Covid came on the scene the likes… Read more »

Anna
Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Americans are shallow — it’s a fact! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kYGXEa9i_Q

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Well Anna, if all I had to go by was Clay Crouch, the barking, clapping seal who keeps following you around hoping for another fish, I’d conclude Americans are shallow, too.

Another Anna
Another Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

And this is how its done, folks. This kind of speech neutered the PCA, which is filled with people unable to handle the disdain of those who hate Christian values. I don’t feel shame. I glory in being alive enough, by the good Lord’s grace, to swim countercurrent. It must really enrage lefties like this to see that even when they control all the media, hollywood, positions of power and high places in every industry, etc that people still exist who ignore all of their ideology. My rule of thumb: if I don’t respect you, any shame you shovel my… Read more »

-BJ-
-BJ-
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Socialists take care of the poor? That’s a knee slapper. Name one.

JohnM
JohnM
9 months ago
Reply to  -BJ-

If you want to have lots of poor socialists can take care of that.

Gray
Gray
9 months ago
Reply to  -BJ-

BJ, Sure, they take care of them. Permanently.

Socialism is nothing more than communism in a soiled dress and cheap lipstick. Socialism is communism in the slow lane.

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  -BJ-

OK. Clement Attlee and the post-war Labour government from 1945 – 51. Rather than repeat the mistakes of the 1920’s it introduced far-reaching reforms that really did do something to alleviate the grinding poverty that could be seen in far too many industrial towns. The gap between rich and poor narrowed. It’s welfare and health reforms were introduced by popular consent, and had Churchill been re-elected he would have introduced something similar, if not so far reaching. It is what the country was fighting for, rather than against. Social democracy then was socially conservative. This has changed in the meantime… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

“Social democracy then was socially conservative. This has changed in the meantime sadly and led in some instances to a dependency culture.”

Yes, that is sad. Wasn’t it predictable?

In any case, If you are responding to what I think you are, the task was to name a *Socialist* that took care of the poor. Is it correct to say the Attlee government was Socialist?

Ken B
Ken B
9 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

JohnM that’s a good question. Attlee was no conservative when it came to economics, nationalising whole industries. That didn’t prove to be successful in the long term, but the health and welfare reforms were more successful. Not in eliminating poverty – the poor you will always have with you – but did significantly reduce the absolutely appalling and degrading conditions the bottom end of the population had to endure before the war. Something my own mother endured. Defining ‘socialist’ isn’t always easy. Attlee and Labour have never been communist. My impression of America (no doubt you will correct me if… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Just to make a minor Biblical note, Ken, “the poor you will always have with you” was not a reference to national realities but to the actual social state of Jesus’s disciples. Jesus expected that his own followers would always be with the poor, literally being a part of their social communities. In a Christ-centered Christian community that will always be true whether the poverty rate in the nation was 40% or 1%.

JohnM
JohnM
9 months ago
Reply to  Ken B

Thanks Ken B. “My impression of America (no doubt you will correct me if I’m wrong!) is that anything left of centre is tantamount to communist.” Yes, and taking that line may have back-fired on conservatives. I read a comment (different blog) the other day that observed how many young Americans nowadays are identifying as socialist or communist. Of course those young people mostly don’t know what they are talking about, or perhaps are being cavalier, but the comment (I forget the exact wording) suggested a contributing factor might be the way Republicans/conservatives regularly denounce *any* form or degree of… Read more »

My5thBurnerAccount
My5thBurnerAccount
9 months ago
Reply to  Anna

Cool comment, but instead of complaining, how about showing us the amazing depth of your own insights, especially non-American ones? Let the teaching begin! (We’ll put I Tim 2:12 on hold for a bit.)

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago

Caleb said: “They may influence our congregation to become less conservative, and drift to a more liberal majority.”

May? No, they will influence your congregation to become more leftist. No question.

Whatever you do, do NOT allow them into positions of leadership or influence.

Ecclesiastes 10:2: “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.”

Bot
Bot
9 months ago

💀💀💀💀💀

Nathan James
Nathan James
9 months ago

There must be deep rooted sins underlying the intellectual positions of leftists. Supporting legal abortion isn’t like getting a math problem wrong. What is going on inside these people? It’s not intellectual, it is ugly, ugly sin. Get at that, and I’ll wager they will either change or leave pretty quickly.

Gray
Gray
9 months ago

TCFKAFP,

I concur. It might not be provable, but it has been observed: O’Sullivan’s Law states that any organization or enterprise that is not expressly right wing will become left wing over time.

If you exchange right and left for conservative and liberal it fits directly into the premise. I particularly eschew the term liberal because that is a flattering term for those who are distinctly the opposite: illiberal.

My modification of O’Sullivan’s: Any institution that is not doctrinally and explicitly conservative in accord with the Word of God will become increasing statist and evil over time.

Another Anna
Another Anna
9 months ago
Reply to  Gray

Is 32:5- “The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.” Looks like the liberal scam is as old as time.

Gray
Gray
9 months ago
Reply to  Another Anna

Sloth and envy are at least as old as Cain and Abel. “I want what you have and I do not want to do the work that you did to get it.”

We Be Libtards
We Be Libtards
9 months ago
Reply to  Gray

Gray,
I see nowhere any words in the Bible to the effect either Cain or Abel was slothful in any way whatsoever. Please do enlighten us.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Kelli’s letter makes many great points, and I appreciate Pastor Wilson being willing to publish it and especially publishing it first, as well as showing that he didn’t really have any rebuttals for any of the points she made.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, the point that there must be a starting block to discuss from was extremely valid. It is extremely difficult to rebut on a blog from divergent points as we all know.

Will you agree to the starting point that there is serious voter fraud?

Or will you agree that Biden really doesn’t speak clearly but instead puts out scrambled, unintelligible thoughts?

Will you agree that his campaign was really elder abuse and not a presidential political campaign?

Where will you start Jonathan?

We Be Libtards
We Be Libtards
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,
It’s becoming undeniably obvious the Biden term is actually Obama’s third. And that is even more evidence of a fraudulent election tally.

BTW, we need to be clear here. The election wasn’t fraudulent. But the counting/tabulation was.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  We Be Libtards

Seeing as Obama was the most popular president in some time, why would Biden trying to run on an Obama platform be evidence of fraud? Obama won both his elections with over 50% of the vote (hadn’t happened since Reagan) and left office with a 59% approval rating (Trump is currently at 43%).

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

What must it feel like to be so triggered that you have to seek safe space in Obama’s “popularity” — a popularity which has been overshadowed by Trump numerous times when you compare various points in their presidencies? That one especially must chafe you. Who said anything about Slow Joe Biden running on an “Obama platform”, whatever that is? Wherever WBL is coming from, he’s right. The Biden term (if it gets that far) will be Obama’s third. Most of your dementia patient’s Cabinet picks are Obama people. And if that wasn’t enough, here it is, straight from the Magic… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago

Hey, silly man. Talk about gaslighting and being triggered! Oh, the irony! There’s nothing like a good laugh before noon.

Obama! Obama!, Obama!

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

Wow, fp, you’re really not following the line of argument at all.

I didn’t say anything at all to dispute that this is “Obama’s third term”. Biden appears very much in line with Obama. I’m only debunking why that would somehow be “evidence” that there was election fraud.

Do better.

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Wow, Jonathan, you’re really not following the line of argument at all. If only you knew how to read for comprehension. Obama’s “popularity” and China Joe Biden running on an Obama platform were all things you inserted into the discussion, champ. Not WBL. So, we’re going with what you hilariously claimed. Of course, you glossed right over the part where the Most Popular President Ever! admitted he’d be pulling Sundown Joe the Dementia Patient’s puppet strings — a puppet who, according to the Democrat/Media Complex, is even more wildly popular than the puppetmaster was. Yes! The Chinese puppet is so… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago

Please stop! Now you’re just embarrassing yourself.

Trigger warning ⚠️.

Obama! Biden! Obama! Biden!

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

How can you start with the conclusion? I mean, it’s clear that’s what y’all are doing, starting the with conclusion that there was massive fraud and hoping to work backwards from there, but you do realize that’s backwards, right?

And do you think that scrambled, unintelligible thoughts are a problem? If you heard someone make scambled, nonsensical statements, perhaps on a regular basis, are you saying that you would consider them unfit for the presidency?

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Usually in investigations, the starting point is when an action has been accomplished and the investigator must work toward the beginning to fully understand what happened and to make a score card of all the players.

Jonathan, where should one start in this debacle?

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

How about this as a starting point?

The words of a Trump-appointed member of the federal appeals court in Philadelphia pretty much sum things up: “Calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here.”

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, how about telling us your jurisprudence and other degrees.

The proof of the election ballot stuffing is growing every day. Just like Cass Elliot singing “It’s getting better.”

Again, the snark is strong with you. What are your degrees. You say you are a Christian, so stop with the snark and get with answering questions as a mature Christian would do.

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave,

Easy, tiger. That wasn’t snark. Didn’t you ask for a starting point? I was suggesting a starting point by quoting a federal appeals court judge, one that was appointed by Trump.

I would like very much for you share the proof that election ballot stuffing is growing everyday. So, why don’t you present it so we can judge for ourselves.

And by proof I mean: the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact (Merriam-Webster)

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Clay Crouch

Clay, you are the brother who disrupts. The Bible specifically points out that God hates that activity and the one who does it. Clay, that post was snark. There is more than enough evidence of ballot stuffing growing. My granddad was a ballot stuffer so it is easier for me to spot it than it would be for American ostriches. There is plenty of proof in Ohio court records from years ago. There is plenty of evidence and proof being presented today; however, you have to actually read the court documents including the footnotes and references. What degrees do you… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

You start with a specific allegation of wrongdoing, and then provide proof supporting that specific allegation.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, isn’t that what is going on right now? Specific allegation – vote fraud. Proof being provided or being denied hearing by various judges. No standing was used by a Pennsylvania court and by the SCOTUS without merit. That is a favorite play by judges who want the case removed from their court quickly. Keep in mind that God is in control of this entire mess. The Biden team is evil and is against the true God. As a note, a portion of the Dominion operating handbook was released from Colorado. In it, the handbook told how to bias votes… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

No “vote fraud” is not a specific allegation.

And the judges have been mocking the lawyers for failing to provide specific allegations or evidence. In fact, most of the lawsuits haven’t even attempted to show evidence of fraud, they simply hope to disallow the ballots of legitimate voters by challenging the rules the election was conducted under.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

I think Republican U.S. Representative Adam Kinzinger answers you well:

I want to be clear: the Supreme Court is not the deep state. The case had no merit and was dispatched 9-0. There was no win here. Complaining and bellyaching is not a manly trait, it’s actually sad. Real men accept a loss with grace.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Agreed, Jonathan. It was a strong letter. I have looked deeply into allegations of fraud and beyond some strange statistical patterns with mail in votes, especially in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, I don’t see anything worth additional time. The vast majority of the fraud claims I have seen have been misunderstandings or outright fabrications.

Before accusing people of grave sin and criminal acts we should have something solid.

Dave
Dave
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, for more than 30 years, in both state and Federal courts, electronic voting machines of various manufacturers have been proven to give a set result, not what the voters voted. The judges didn’t care and the states which used the machines didn’t care either. Ohio had several such cases and in court, without using tools or opening the machine, the inspector showed how the machines could be programmed before voting, during voting or after voting to give a particular point spread. If you noticed in the current legal disputes, the approved State answer is that the Dominion machines hardware… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, You mention Ohio court cases, and yet Ohio still uses Dominion voting machines. The house, senate, and governor’s office in Ohio are all controlled by Republicans. They all insist that their voting system is absolutely secure, and no one has sued Ohio for fraud. Why is that, if their machines are as inherently fraudulent as all the others according to you? https://www.govtech.com/security/Experts-Ohio-Can-Be-Confident-in-its-Election-Security.html Most places that use electronic voting machines are governed by Republicans. Republicans hold most governorships, most state-level Attorney Generals were appointed by Republicans, most state legislatures are majority Republican, most justices were appointed by Republicans, and Republican… Read more »

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Dave

What’s the source(s) of your information about the election machines’ susceptibility to easy tampering?

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago

It’s embarrassing that the most important lawsuits to overturn the vote are making the most basic, obvious errors. The Texas AG’s attempt to block the will of the people in Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania includes a statistic analysis claiming that it was impossible for Biden to win…..an analysis that relies on ridiculous, obviously wrong claims, such as assuming that the votes counted first (generally in-person ballots and from smaller counties) and the votes counted last (generally absentee ballots and from the largest counties) should have broken for Trump by the exact same percentages. If you can’t see why that’s… Read more »

Jane
Jane
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree that the Texas case was ill-advised. But why do people keep pushing the line that the Pennsylvania situation was “the will of the people” or “duly decided by the legislature” or whatever talking point is on offer at the moment, when the fact that the state courts illegally overrode the will of the people through their legislators is precisely what is at issue in the Pennsylvania case? Is it just convenient to ignore that aspect of the case?

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Would you explain to those of us outside of PA what was illegal about the court’s decision? Didn’t the SCOTUS allow the extension of PA’s mail-in ballot deadline with the possibility of readdresing the case after the election?

Whatever the disposition turns out to be, as far the election goes, it will be moot.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Can you explain what “will of the people” the Pennsylvania courts supposedly overrode? The choice to allow mail-in voting for everyone was made by the elected Republican-majority legislature in 2019. The decision to fill out those ballots with Biden’s name rather than Trump’s was made by the people of Pennsylvania. Therefore what Texas was challenging was indeed the will of the people. What I assume you’re referring to is the 3-day extension on the deadline to receive ballots, made due to extensive postal service delays created by the pandemic and federal mismanagement, allowed by the courts with advisement from the… Read more »

Jane
Jane
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

When the Pennsylvania legislature passed that bill in 2019, they established the deadlines by which ballots must be received in order to be counted.

In Ocotober 2020, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court overrode that, changing the deadline, thereby completely taking the constitutional duty to set the conditions of the election out of the legislature’s hands by arrogating the right to do that.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Whether it is valid or not to change deadlines in response to a natural disaster is a matter of dispute, and I think it is fairly disputed. We fall on different sides and that’s fine.

But the deadline change had no effect on the election. Fewer than 10,000 votes came in after the deadline (for both candidates) in an election Biden won by over 80,000 votes. Electing Biden was indisputably the will of the people of Pennsylvania no matter how you feel about the deadline to receive legally cast ballots.

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

p.s. – the justification made by Pennsylvania officials was they had the right to fudge said rule under the “Free and Equal Elections Clause of the State Constitution. Id., at 44a, 45a–47a,” which allows them to make allowances which ensure that people have the opportunity to vote in the case of events such as natural disasters.

But as I said, regardless of whether you feel that was a justified ruling or not, it didn’t affect enough ballots to influence the outcome of the race.

Jane
Jane
9 months ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree that the outcome was unlikely to be influenced, but that’s a different question from whether it’s a legitimate complaint that should be ruled on for the sake of maintaining the rule of law. Not in the Texas case, because they’re messing with federalism unacceptably there, but the ruling should have been different when the Pennsylvania case came before the courts on its own. There’s nothing about the pandemic that made it any harder to get a ballot in three days sooner with a several week lead time during which time the postal service is functioning albeit with a… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

It was not “unlikely” to change the outcome, it indisputably did not change the outcome. That is not in question. There are fewer than 10,000 ballots in question due to this rule change and Biden won in Pennsylvania by over 80,000. If you’re denying that mail service was far slower due to the pandemic (as well as due to intentional obstruction on the part of the Postmaster General), I don’t know what to say to you. It is a matter of fact that the mail was traveling far slower than usual, with even letters interior to the city taking up… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

I know this is too late to be read. But I completely agree with Jane here. State legislatures are to determine the way state elections will be conducted. The courts should only step in if there is a clear breach of the constitution (state or federal depending on issue/jurisdiction). This will be a messy political process because legislatures are messy political bodies.

I don’t think it has much bearing on the fraud discussion, but across different levels of government we continue to allow executives and judiciaries to usurp powers from legislative bodies and it is a very bad idea.

JohnM
JohnM
9 months ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

You mean like when Federal and state executives appeal issues such as, oh, say election results, to the courts? We are fortunate that the courts have been less eager to usurp legislative power than executives have been for them to do it.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
9 months ago
Reply to  JohnM

Yep, John. I disagree with quite a lot of court rulings, but we have still been blessed with a better judiciary than we deserve. But, in my opinion, we have a long running trend of strengthening bureaucratic and (especially) judicial power and weakening legislative power. It is a troubling trend.

But I thank God that in this instance the courts aren’t swayed but utter nonsense!

Clay Crouch
Clay Crouch
9 months ago
Reply to  Jane

Jane,

That is a one dimensional view of the courts. The PA Supreme Court found the PA Legislature violated the PA constitution, as did the SCOTUS.