Letters From Go-Getters

Sharing Options
Show Outline with Links

Don’t Give Candace the Attention She Craves

Apropos of “The Mess that is Candace”:
Do you want to know how I came to follow your blog?
It was your haters.
I had signed up for a FB group called “Based Lutheran Fellowship” (before it degenerated into anti-Reformed sniping). They ran several posts that attacked you by name. “Who’s this Doug Wilson guy,” I thought. “I should look him up.” And then, “Wow, this Doug Wilson makes a lot of sense! I should sign up for Canon Press,” etc.
The point of this is not to disagree with you about Candace; I do not disagree. It’s not even to tell you that I don’t read your blog to read about Candace, though this is true.
It’s to tell you that this post earned Candace a net increase in followers. I know this for a certainty, not by access to any metrics, but because that’s how the system works.
You don’t have to believe in “no enemies to the right” to understand that the best way of dealing with Candace is to ignore her.

Allan

Allan, thanks for the kind words, and here would be a little push back. The rule I try to follow is this. If someone online says something really dumb or slanderous about me, I look at their number of followers. If it is something like 52, I give it a pass. Answering them would hand them a microphone, and would make their day. In terms of followers, Candace already has millions, and I don’t think my interaction would have any noticeable affect. But it might have a noticeable affect on people who agree with me on Candace, and who have millions of followers themselves, but who have been too quiet to this point.

Favorite Verse

Grading my 8-year-old son’s homework this afternoon, he had to write about his favorite missionary. He put you down and wanted to know your favorite Bible verse. I say you count, ha!
Thank you for your ministry, you have been a blessing to me and my wife and now my son!

Thomas

Thomas, thank you, and please thank your son for me. If pressed on my favorite verse in Scripture, it would probably be Isaiah 25:6: “And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.”

Male Toplessness

I’ve read a lot of your books and articles and I’m very thankful for someone who can articulate and reinforce my beliefs. Recently some controversy has come up in my extended family around whether or not men should swim with shirts on, or if it’s even okay for men to be shirtless. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and input.
Thanks,

Ian

Ian, I had not heard of this being controversial pretty much anywhere. But I will say that my father once told me of a time when it came up. He was on a midshipman cruise in the late forties, and they stopped in Portugal, and so he went to the beach. It was there that the local police required him to put a shirt on. So there’s that.

Tithe Question

I own a business and am sole proprietor. It’s a little sloppy sometimes on how much I make per month, sometimes it’s quite a bit, other times it’s a little bit; it’s sort of seasonal, but I have a general idea of what I make for the whole year, just not exactly month-to-month. From the profits of the business I pay myself essentially monthly what covers my family’s budget / monthly expenses, and then I tithe to my church on that amount. I roll anything left over back into the business or investments, with the idea that whenever I sell that investment, it’s all profit and I will then tithe from that amount. I know you mentioned a few months back when someone wrote in asking about selling their business, if they should tithe from the profit to their local church and you said some, but to give more broadly in different directions. My question is more so in regards to those other directions and what is permissible? Should it be to a Christian ministry or program, or would it still “count” as a tithe if I were to say give it to someone I know who is a pastor (not at my church) towards a down payment on a house? I’ve always appreciated stories of missionaries or ministers who were gifted things like that, in your father’s biography he was gifted a house if I’m remember correctly? And while I can’t quite buy someone a house with this amount I have from an investment I’ve sold, it would be a pretty good amount towards a down payment. I appreciate your thoughts! God bless.

Christian

Christian, I believe the center of someone’s tithe should go to their local church, but don’t believe it needs to go exclusively there. And I believe that a lawful recipient of the tithe would include anyone in Christian ministry, anyone in need of poverty relief, and the Deuteronomy 14 party tithe—like a Thanksgiving blowout.

Divorce and Remarriage

For reference: link here.
Warm greetings!
The topic of divorce and remarriage has been a nagging topic to me for quite some time, but has recently resurfaced as a subject of concern to me personally (friends and family members are now entering such situations) and am facing unexpected threats of argument with those closest to me. As a matter of due diligence, I am brushing up on the topic and am reading material on both sides of the aisle. Naturally, since my husband and I respect your objectivity, we wanted to look at your explanation in defense of divorce and remarriage (of course, with all the “proper” qualifications). However, my search has been coming up short. Above I linked your post where you promised a more in-depth interaction with John Piper’s views on remarriage, and either that forthcoming position paper has been lost to the internet void, or you never followed through on your promise for public discourse. I doubt it was the latter, so I am writing to let you know that that information is inaccessible to the public and ask if you could point me in the right direction. Or, if you hadn’t yet published a detailed defense on the topic, if you would consider doing so now?
With all that being said . . . here is where I am standing currently; in the throes of fanatical ideology. I have been persuaded since a young teenager that divorce is only something to entertain in the most dire and unavoidable of circumstances, as some situations unfortunately are, and to consider it with solemn understanding that to be remarried while your spouse is still alive is to commit adultery. Passages that “prove” otherwise actually are vague on the topic and I believe lean more in direction of saying that the spouse would be free to divorce as a means of mercy to that person so that they do not have to be treated in a terrible way on a daily basis. There are no clear passages that give express permission to be remarried, except in the case that the prior marriage had been dissolved. Which, I believe, I can biblically defend means the death of the prior spouse, not just simply dissolving it by means of divorce, since there are passages that clearly say that to be divorced and remarried would be to commit adultery. The conclusion then would be to understand that the act of divorce itself does not properly dissolve those marriage vows in the eyes of the Lord. I know that some argue that as long as the one spouse had already broken the marriage vows (i.e. adultery, abandonment) that the other spouse is then “free to go” which then many conclude that includes “free to remarry,” but I see that as an extra-biblical interpretation, with no proper precedent to justify this position. It’s vague at best, and takes liberty with those passages despite the other more strict definitions about marriage vows remaining in effect as long as the prior spouse lives (Luke 16:18).
The other main argument I’ve heard is the “it’s better to marry than to burn” approach, so many pastors will make this argument for why they believe the divorced person should get remarried, since they were not called to a life of singleness. However, the same pastors will usually do a preliminary inquiry to make sure that the person in question had obtained a divorce in a “biblically lawful” manner. If not, then they are told that it would not be appropriate to remarry. That the grace of God would sustain them during this trial. Why this double standard? Why is it that the grace of God is sufficient for some in a certain trial of singleness, but not in other’s?
So then that brings me to the “fanatical” aspect of things—I’m currently seeing pastors and elders taking liberties where I do not see the Bible permits, and it is essentially church approved and assisted adultery. This has become a genuine struggle and heartbreak of mine to view it all in this way.
Would love to see your in-depth thoughts on the matter.
Thank you!

Hannah

Hannah, first, I don’t think I ever wrote that follow-up piece as intended. Apologies, and I will take this letter as a kick on the shin. In the meantime, here is a scenario that might help you think through this. Don’t imagine a divorced couple, divorced because he committed adultery. Put a couple of variations on it. Say they are divorced for that reason, and then he is killed in a car accident. Remarriage for her is now permissible, right? Reconciliation is no longer a possibility. But suppose instead that he marries his mistress. That puts marital reconciliation out of reach also—because the only way to reconcile now would be by means of another divorce. And the second divorce would be a genuine divorce because Scripture does treat a certain class of marriages as true marriages even though they were unlawfully begun.
Is there such a thing as a “permanent state of adultery”? For example, say a man divorced his wife for unbiblical reasons and remarried when he ought not to have done. Is he in an ongoing and unforgivable state of adultery as long as he remains married to his second wife? And is he biblically required to go through a second divorce since he wasn’t allowed to get remarried in the first place?

DJ

DJ, I would argue that he was in a permanent condition of adultery so long as he had not repented. Say he divorced while not a Christian, remarried, and then five years later became a Christian. Now what? He repents of his ungodly marriage—to God, to his wife, and to his ex-wife. But he does not compound the sin by leaving his second wife, not at all. God takes you from where you are, not from where you should have been.

Acting Like Men

I have been talking with my fellow church members and we have had a point of contention with the local church’s responsibility to “teach men to act like men.” The issue stems from perceived weak male leadership in the youth program (youth pastor with wife and children still acting immaturely either intentionally or not), men showing up to church with their family wearing Marvel themed t-shirts, observed behaviors of men not holding doors open for others and men not offering their seat when a woman is present in the lobby. We are debating on how the church leadership should handle this: do they actively address these topics from the pulpit, do the leaders engage at the individual level to discuss or is it up to the men of the church to smack these guys upside the head and tell them to get some manners and grow up? I am always grateful and thankful for your insights, thank you.

Travis

Travis, I would start somewhere in between addressing it from the pulpit and addressing it to the men one-on-one. However, if someone did something really rude to someone, I would speak to the person. I would think this would be a good theme to address in a church newsletter. Instructions on church behavior, under the heading of “Things We Want to Encourage.” Put the ball in play that way, and you will no doubt have follow-up conversations.

Mary Magdalene

Re: Mary Magdalene and Judas the Troubled
Fascinating, I will have to return to the Gospels, read them through again and see what I think about that. . .
Who do you think Thomas’ twin was? One of the other disciples or someone not mentioned in the Gospels?

Roger

Roger, thanks. But no good ideas on who his twin was.
All I have to say, completely concurring with your disclaimers (we can’t ultimately know for sure, but thinking about these possibilities is a productive exercise), is: Way to pay attention to the details in the text. Folks—pay attention. You want to have this level of attention and grasp of details in the Word when you grow up. I know I sure do.
That said, consider this. The text clearly identifies at least one aspect of what is motivating Judas: “Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve” (Luke 22:3). I did not see that in your analysis, but this fact is not inconsistent with your construction. And what does the devil do but lie and create delusions?
Incidentally, one of the scariest verses in the Bible, in my opinion. If you are not in Christ, watch the heck out and do not mess around with the roaming lion.

J P

J P, yes. That verse blends in nicely with my reconstruction. The devil thrives in a heart full of crackling envy.

Oops

First of all thank you for writing “What I Learned In Narnia”. It’s a truly amazing book about the stories I have loved for most of my life.
I write to bring to your attention one small error in Chapter 3 Nobility. You attribute a quote of your book to Peter when it was Edmund who was speaking in The Horse and His Boy. (Find it on page 70 in your book and around page 75 in Lewis’ depending on the edition of course.)
I hope this is a helpful mention and a quick fix rather than a waste of your very limited time.

AK

AK, thanks.

Elder Quals

So grateful for you. What have been the best books/resources you’ve read on building a biblically faithful session of elders/deacons? Also, when interviewing a potential candidate into membership at a CREC church, I know the bar is low (A Christian profession, a holy lifestyle), but what do you do when the interested family loves the church, but is theologically completely on the other side of the spectrum (charismatic, Arminian, etc.)? Thanks and blessings.

Ben

Ben, we have profited from Alexander Strauch’s book, Biblical Eldership. I would also look at my book, The Neglected Qualification. And no, I wouldn’t consider someone who was on another theological page entirely.

Great Tribulation

Post-Mil question: In Matthew 24:21 Jesus says, “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again.” I take it you would agree this statement is anchored to v. 15–16 and the abomination of desolation. Do you identify that event with A.D. 70? I’m struggling to see how the sacking of a single city in 70 A.D. is an unparalleled event to the degree that the global flood or the Holocaust can’t be seen as it’s contemporary. Is the language meant to be taken as genuinely absolute, or do you see a principled reason it should be interpreted differently?

Tyler

Tyler, I do take this as addressing the sack of Jerusalem, but I think it is possible to do so without watering down the Lord’s language. The fall of that city was a concentrated horror. One place, one city, with that city surrounded by a veritable forest of crosses, a body on each one.

CREC and Baptists

I’ve been looking at the CREC and wondering about church planting. There are many questions I have about it, being a Baptist who is convinced of a robust Congregational church governance (the type where churches are associated with and hold each other accountable but don’t have the right to dismiss elders or take property. The way the SBC associations SHOULD work). But my primary questions are, 1. Are there resources you know of that would explain the practical governmental differences between CREC Presbyterianism and historic Congregationalism. I.e. what can the Denomination actually “do” at the local church level? and 2. Does the CREC still have credo-baptists churches functioning happily, or has the CREC become less fertile soil for them over time to the point of them needing to leave?
I want to commend you all on the heat map tool for Canon content. I don’t think church planting in the CREC would have ever even crossed my mind if I hadn’t seen how red the blocks were in my area.

JM

JM, I don’t know of any document that compares the CREC to Congregationalism, but I can say a few things. All property is held by the local church, and all ministers are members of the local church they service, and are not members of the presbytery. The presiding minister of our broader bodies has spiritual authority as he speaks to a local assembly, but the one enforcement mechanism is the separation of that church from the CREC. With regard to Baptists, it is not so much a matter of them needing to leave as it has been a matter of persuading them to come—and figuring out the details if they do come.

Spanking

This is a question regarding the spanking debate (podcast) you had with Alex Clark.
First, thank you very much for your ministry. In the last maybe five years I have greatly enjoyed and been blessed by a lot of books, articles and other stuff you have produced.
I am a father to 3 children, between 3 and 7 years old. From an early age my wife and I wanted to discipline our children biblically, despite it being illegal in our European country and being mostly discouraged in churches here. Unfortunately it has mostly been the case that, when I have set a certain standard and enforced it a certain way, my wife didn’t take the same approach, but would often let things go until she is angry and shouts at the kids. She doesn’t want it this way and says she wants to follow my lead on this, but unfortunately the discipline has been very unstable for our kids.
I still try to be consistent in my discipline of the kids. The biggest problem for me right now is how to discipline them when they’re older. It doesn’t seem right for me to spank my seven-year-old boy, but I find it hard to give appropriate and meaningful consequences. I tried things like not being allowed to participate in nice activities or having to eat only bread for diner. But I’m not confident in any of these. Could you advise in good way to correct older children, where the correction in younger years has not been consistent and so there is still a high amount of disobedience?
Thank you so much for all your work.

Nils

Nils, recovering lost ground is a challenge. As a general rule, spanking should be tapering off significantly as the kids grow. I would say that 95% of all spankings should occur when the kids are 5 and under. After that, as an occasional course correction, and I would encourage parents to be done with spanking entirely, by the time they are twelve. As for what you do instead, try to have the discipline be a natural consequence of their behavior. Grumbling over chores gets them an extra chore, that kind of thing.

Sojourners

Would you provide some perspective on the Biblical definition of a sojourner? Deuteronomy is filled with instructions concerning them (as are other books of the law). There’s been so much pressure on Christians, worldwide, to equate what’s happened with immigration to these texts. I can’t recall ever hearing a clear teaching on it. I think I know what it means. From your perspective and education, what was a sojourner in the time the law was written and what would be an equivalent today (if there is one)?
If you have already answered this, please have someone point me to the correct blog or previous letter-to-the-editor (etc.). I did a cursory look before writing this, but I didn’t not find anything.

Brian

Brian, sorry. I don’t know of any good resources that would define the term. My understanding is that a sojourner would be a resident alien, one who comes to reside in your midst in the normal course of events—as a merchant, or someone who married in, that kind of thing. Massive immigration, at levels where assimilation cannot happen, would be placed in the category outlined in Deuteronomy 28, where they are becoming the head, and not the tail.

A Sad Situation

My husband believes our marriage, though ordained by God, was a mistake—and he reminds me of this daily either directly or through silence, frustration, anger, and threats. My life revolves entirely around him and his moods; any desire, wish, or opinion of my own is deemed wrong simply because it differs from his. He has told me plainly: he doesn’t care what I think at all.
We once sought help from a Presbyterian pastor who advised him to stop making such comments, but my husband dismissed him as “a loser.” He frequently quotes Genesis 50:20—“you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good”—arguing that we were both foolish, and if either of us had known then what we know now, we would never have married. He wasn’t always this way. He was once genuinely kind and caring about me, my thoughts, and my personality. Perhaps the obsessive instability was there and I simply didn’t see it; I was unstable myself back then. We were young and foolish and made poor choices, but I believe God has turned it for good, even when it doesn’t feel that way.
My husband insists that if our son doesn’t marry someone he personally selects—someone who only makes apple pies and takes direction on command —he will have failed as a father. He follows Joel Webbon, Dale Partridge, and their circle almost religiously—men I believe have strayed far from the truth. Daily I hear that women can do nothing beyond cooking and childcare, and even that requires a man’s micromanagement. Dale Partridge recently made disparaging comments about his own interracial marriage, calling it “not ideal,” and my husband has echoed similar sentiments about our marriage to others without hesitation.
Living under his dictatorship makes me wish for the end of my life every day, yet I fight these thoughts, knowing God in His vast mercy has saved me. My husband has told me I can leave if I want, but he will take our son and hide him where I cannot find him until he’s 18. Honestly, I am in this marriage largely out of fear—fear of disobeying God by leaving, and fear of what happens to sons raised by single mothers.
I know God ordains everything, so this marriage cannot truly be a mistake—can it? Yet I struggle: Is God a cosmic killjoy? I know He isn’t, but how do I rest my heart in that truth? What do I do? How do I find hope to press on each day when my husband has vowed to make my life miserable?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

AA

AA, your theological question needs to be answered on two levels. This marriage was the will of God in that He decreed that it would happen. But God decrees everything that happens, and that would include sinful or foolish choices. From what you describe, your marriage sounds like it meets that description—young and foolish, you made a poor decision. The solution is to confess that sin to God, acknowledge it fully, and then ask Him to take you from where you are. My advice to you would be, if possible, to seek out pastoral counsel—with your husband if he will go, and without him if he will not. Secondly, I would start praying for God to change his heart—to convert him if he is not saved, or to bring him to repent of his backsliding if he is saved. Pray that God bring everything to a head.

More Jewish Stuff

Re: The “Reformed Hebraists” section of “Mud Flaps, Talmud Flaps, and Flaps About the Talmud” (January 12)
Why do you recklessly wade into subjects about which you know little? You laud Johannes Reuchlin, a notorious champion of the Kabbalah (what you misleadingly term, “Hebrew studies”). To advance that demonism he claimed it testified of Jesus. He was backed by the equivalent of the woke theologians of the day, forerunners of the Rosicrucian movement. Reuchlin was confuted by Johannes Pfefferkorn, a learned and indeed heroic Jewish convert to Catholicism who was hounded by Reuchlin’s allies in the episcopal hierarchy.
Reuchlin’s Kabbalah movement, built upon the Medici-backed “Catholic”-Kabbalah pioneer Pico della Mirandola, had covert support from several popes, as I document in “The Occult Renaissance Church of Rome,” among them Medici pontiff Leo X.
There was a conservative Catholic battle with the papally-protected Reuchlin and the powerful movement of Neoplatonic-Hermetic-Kabbalism which has been influential inside the Church since the founding in mid-fifteenth century Florence, of the Platonic Academy. As recently as the Second Vatican Council, whose eminence grisé was Henri de Lubac, Pico’s defender and apologist, Kabbalism has had firm purchase in Rome.
With regard to your sweeping generalization about Talmud-burning, you appear to be unaware that Leo X lent his support to the publication in Venice by the Catholic printer Bomberg of the finest edition of the Talmud ever committed to paper.
It is unfortunate that the received opinion you have imbibed is blithely disseminated to your flock. Your apparent resort to a lackadaisical, Wikipedia-type ecclesiastical chronicle which swallows the myths of Establishment historiography is disservice to your readers.

Michael

Michael, thanks for sharing!
Subscribe
Notify of
guest
22 Comments
Oldest
Newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Andrew Lohr
Andrew Lohr
1 month ago

Hannah–theologian John Murray did think the guilty party to a divorce, not just the innocent party, could remarry (upon repentance, I presume, if s/he wanted Christian approval). MAYbe on better-marry-than-burn and forbidding-to-marry-is-doctrine-of-demons grounds. DJ–and what would show repentance? I’d say offhand, keep current vows–president Trump and his current wife would do well to adopt the ‘Pence rule’–and also compensate innocent party. Trump’s first wife is dead and his 2nd was (apparently) willing party to adultery vs the 1st, but he could give most of his wealth to the children of his first wife to show he’s repented of sinning against… Read more »

Hannah
Hannah
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Lohr

Hi Andrew! To be frank, I find this argument Biblically and intellectually dishonest. The context for which you speak (forbidding to marry being the doctrine of Demons) is 1 Timothy 4:1-5 and is not a general “hall-pass” for any type of marriage. 1 Corinthians 7:39 specifically says not to marry an unbeliever, there you have it, a forbidding of marriage. There are lots of dads who have to wisely asses the marriageability of a man for their daughter and depending on their history, may have to forbid the marriage. John Murray is hardly a holier theologian than Jesus, and Jesus… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
1 month ago

Michael, I’m being richly rewarded reading Jewish rabbinic material for the insights it provides over and above anything you’d get in any Christian denomination. I commend to you Sefer Chofetz Chaim’s, The Laws of Lashon Hara (Vol 1) (Artscroll). Lashon Hara is “the evil tongue.” The volume deals in breathtaking detail with the consequences in our lives of saying bad things about other people–or judging them censoriously. I have to say it’s a shocker! For e.g. “When evil spirits take the foul words of forbidden speech, they attach them to the prayers that the individual sends up to God, but… Read more »

TedR
TedR
1 month ago

I am sure there is a tie-in here to the subject of the blog post but your 4D chess has me unable to see it.

Will
Will
1 month ago

I want to commend you all on the heat map tool for Canon content.”

Where can I see this heat map?

David Anderson
1 month ago

> Q: ” what do you do when the interested family loves the church, but is theologically completely on the other side of the spectrum (charismatic, Arminian, etc.)?” A: “I wouldn’t consider someone who was on another theological page entirely.” This is excellent advice, for anyone looking to setup a club for an elite band of super-disciples, with how good a disciple you are being measured by a written test. If, on the other hand, it’s about joining a Christian church, then the basis of membership is being in Christ, being a Christian (and having a walk that agrees with your… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

I think dividing the “ins” and “outs” of membership on the basis of whether somebody is Calvinist, Armenian or Charismatic is rank sectarianism of the kind Paul condemns in 1 Corinthians. Jesus warned his disciples against judging those who were exorcising demons but didn’t belong to his immediate circle of followers. All of the above theological positions are deeply flawed because they are not understood in the deeper context of the various literary genres of the Hebrew bible, which includes parody and humour. Divine Truth cannot always be communicated literally. Much Evangelicalism, especially in the US, employs a form of… Read more »

Caleb Kos
Caleb Kos
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Thanks Dave. We certainly don’t always agree, but I think we’re fully on the same page here. The church’s unity is “in Christ.” When a church hold’s to certain confessions, how it implements it’s policy of accepting all who are “in Christ” is a matter of wisdom. As you mentioned, the elders should determine first of all if they love Jesus, confess Jesus, and are amending their lives (hating and fleeing from all sins). Then they must also determine (as is the case with all new members, but especially those who don’t hold to the confessions accepted by the local… Read more »

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

For an extra dose of delicious irony, consider the parallel with the Halfway Covenant. What happens when a child who was baptized in Christ Church Moscow decides that they no longer accept cessationism, TULIP, etc? Can they remain a member in good standing when they would not even be considered otherwise? Or does the CREC excommunicate ordinary church members for peacefully disagreeing with secondary matters like the gifts of the Spirit?

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Wilson

I’m very glad to hear that, and that certainly seems more like your past trajectory in general. Perhaps you could clarify your reply to the letter mentioned?

Dan
Dan
1 month ago
Reply to  Nathan Tuggy

I assumed Doug was primarily referring to potential elder candidates, not general membership.

Ken B
Ken B
1 month ago
Reply to  Dan

I think elders should cover a multitude of sins!!

Nathan Tuggy
Nathan Tuggy
1 month ago
Reply to  Dan

That may have been his intention (and I would have to agree with him on that), but if so I think it was based on a misreading of the letter, which did mention elders but then clearly pivoted to ordinary members and talking about the presumably lower bar for them.

Obviously, mistakes do happen in communication, sometimes even quite puzzling ones, and I’m mostly happy that Pastor Wilson does not hold members to a standard that would be appropriate for elders, but a little clarification would not go amiss.

Jane
Jane
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

I agree that as a matter of order, they should be received.

But as a matter of prudence, they should be strongly encouraged to consider whether it’s a good fit, with a gentle warning about how that’s likely not to be the case, before that happens. Both can be true.

David Anderson
1 month ago
Reply to  Jane

It’s not whether people believe wrong things per se that will make church life together challenging, but whether they have a teachable spirit and are ready to hear something that contradicts their prior beliefs. Even then, pastors must be ready to endure the wrath of erring sheep. No true pastor should have the attitude “let’s try to avoid difficulty by encouraging potentially troublesome sheep join someone else’s flock”. I think where prudence comes in is in pointing out that some of our teachings may disturb them, given what teachings they’ve received before, and in urging them to be patient, and… Read more »

Jane
Jane
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

I agree. That’s why I would phrase it as a warning that it’s likely not to be a good fit. That is a defeatable warning, but it is absolutely one that needs to be taken into consideration before making a commitment. Unless you’re the only church in town that teaches something resembling orthodoxy, there’s no harm in saying “You might be happier elsewhere.” This isn’t just about wanting to keep people out who might cause trouble, it’s also about full disclosure that joining a church under those conditions *may* create a lot of unnecessary stress in the family and create… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Being on the receiving end of antipathy to spiritual gifts years ago made me a life-long enemy of narrowmindedness and going by ‘what we have always done’. Talking not long ago to someone who visited with a view to joining a local very Calvinist church (Canons of Dordt adorn the website) I was disturbed to find after 4 months he was not allowed to take communion there. Since he was obviously a believer I could see no justification for this. Allegiance to Calvinism ought not to be a consideration, and flies in the face of ‘Christ alone’. The pastor is… Read more »

Buster Keaton
Buster Keaton
1 month ago
Reply to  Ken B

“It is surprising how often it isn’t!” Only if you start from the assumption that these men are after heavenly reward rather than earthly power. But there is no reason — Scriptural or otherwise — to start from such an assumption. They very, very clearly crave earthly power, and are willing to forego having an effective witness in order to obtain it. It is not at all surprising that these men would deny communion to a fellow believer until that believer has paid proper deference to them. Not even remotely surprising, the lust for power seeps out of every pore.… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
1 month ago
Reply to  Buster Keaton

” …until that believer has paid proper deference to them.” Sadly I have to say with about 95% certainty that you are right on this – there are two elders in the church, but the pastor ultimately has all the authority. His Grace cannot be petitioned!! You have to bow the knee to the Canons of Dordt to get in. Two people I care very deeply about go to this church and I am not at all happy about it. I’ve listened to a couple of his sermons and I cannot warm to him. He is obsessed with going through each… Read more »

David Anderson
1 month ago
Reply to  Ken B

Hi Ken, From experience, I’ve learned that it’s necessary to distinguish between Reformed/Calvinist belief, and particular cultures that people create which more reflect their own personalities and character problems. John 6, Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 tell me that Jesus and his apostles had a very strong belief in divine sovereignty in salvation, as did all the Protestant Reformers (not just Calvin). (I understand, of course, that others will dispute the interpretation). But the “culture” which was manifest in the lives of our Saviour and his apostles, was one of self-giving love, of openness to sinners, of seeking out the… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
1 month ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Hi Dave, thanks for the thoughtful post. A lot of the problem is the demeanor people have when arguing for their point of view. Militancy is likely to lead to division. I try normally to be laid back, but sometimes it is not easy! In my own case the damage I saw Calvinism doing in my own family made me react in a way that was not exactly helpful, although my antipathy justified. I know the damage it did to me and i don’t want to see that replicated. And yet as believers we have got to try to maintain… Read more »