True Revival
Do you think that the Asbury event—from reports, a long-scheduled singalong prayer meeting led at times by “gay” and “queer” students, crowned with a sermon resolutely affirming female pastors—was in any sense a Holy-Spirit-wrought revival?
Dan
Dan, I don’t know that it was, and would want to hold it up long term against the template that Jonathan Edwards laid out in his Religious Affections. The things you are describing are really bad, but the Great Awakening had some really bad stuff in it also. A true revival on a large scale is going to be a mixed bag. But the main thing I would point to right now is that it has fallen out of the news cycle. So could something as you describe be in “any sense” part of a Holy-Spirit-wrought revival? And notice that I added the words “part of.” I would say yes.
Laketown, Laketown
Shameless v. Unashamed:
Just a minor correction in your final analogy, since I can’t help myself: It was Laketown, not Dale, which the Dragon attacked in The Hobbit, Dale was the old ruined city off to the side.
Apologies for my pedantic nerdiness!
Anon
Anon, no need to be anonymous when you’re right! Fixed it.
Re: The Shameless v. The Unashamed
Mr. Wilson, I was loving this article, it resonated with current ideas I’ve been turning over in my mind. When in the last paragraph(s) you mentioned Dale and Bard, however, I got goosebumps. Thank you for your writings, they are a great source of encouragement and sanity.
LM
LM, thanks very much, but see above.
Book Recommend
Quick note to highly recommend Matthew Roberts’ new book “Pride: Identity and the Worship of Self”. It hits a number of themes dear to your heart and does it with great depth and freshness. If you read it, I suspect it would be a hot candidate for your Book of the Month.
Thanks for all you do!
Peter
Peter, thanks. Ordered it.
Like a Queen
I had reached out at Canon Press to see if there was a book or resource that could be recommended for an “unequally yoked” marriage and was directed to contact you directly.
First, I’d like to say that I’m almost done reading “Covenant Household” and it’s been a great eye opener and has made me realize that I must accept responsibility for the things done and most importantly things not done and things I haven’t done (others sin).
To make a long story somewhat short I became a Christian about 3 years ago while I was married, we have since had two children with a third on the way and my family is a great blessing from God. However my wife does not see eye to eye with me with how to raise the children. I want to stand on Scripture and she wants to stand on her own autonomy. I would best describe her as a general believer in a God, but not a believer in the authenticity and infallibility of the Scriptures. She tells me many times that the Bible is “just a book”.
I’m a big reader of Greg Bahnsen and the presuppositional apologetic method. I feel I have cast down arguments that she has brought, but it really hasn’t accomplished anything (as of yet, only God knows) and in fact she has made a comment that I sometimes make her feel stupid, etc. This was quite an eye opener for me and I apologized and asked for forgiveness.
So what I’m asking, is how to be a faithful husband that honors the Covenant that God has placed on marriage while I am married to a woman who views my church activity as a choice between her and the kids. How can I be faithful and honor Christ and love my wife as he loved the church if I’m opposed by my wife? I’ve been told to be patient but not much else.
I know there’s no easy answer but there doesn’t seem to be really any worthwhile books from a covenantal view on this subject; Most books on the Continental marriages that I’ve seen have in mind 2 believers.
Any help would be most appreciated. I pray this did not come off as wife bashing and if it did God forgive me and may I be rebuked.
Blessings,
Jason
Jason, sorry, I don’t know of any books that fit your situation. But what I would say is this. Dial back your church involvement to Sunday morning worship, move your reading from high-level apologetics to personal sanctification—because your task is to win your wife, not win arguments, and treat her like a queen.
And So It Begins
This was just released from the Federal Reserve this morning. The implementation of the central digital banking platform is upon us:
Similar things are happening in Canada, where I live.
The reasonable thing to do is to get our money out of the banks, but how do we then invest it? What is your thought on this?
I am not asking this from a dispensational or prepper mindset. I am a postmillennialist (thanks to your book “Heaven Misplaced”) and believe the kingdom will march on, hence why we need to be wise with our finances and avail ourselves of opportunities to make sure they multiply for the work of the kingdom, instead of hording them or else willfully letting them be stolen by the Feds.
You’ve been very prompt in answering me, so thank you! God bless you today.
CR
CR, my thought would be that Christians should, wherever possible, place their resources in things that cannot be seized or controlled from a distance. This isn’t always possible, but when it is possible, it ought to be done.
Hard to Believe
What should the church’s response be to a married woman, active member, attends regularly who became a surrogate for an unbelieving friend? This seems an immoral thing to do; a twist on 1 For 5. There have been crickets from the leadership.
Jeff
Jeff, I would obviously want to know a lot more, but it seems that at the least the situation needs to be openly dealt with and taught on. It seems like an immoral thing to do, but I could imagine a situation where it wasn’t (e.g. carrying a snowflake baby that the unbelieving friend was going to discard).
Defense Work?
How would you advise someone who may have opportunity to work as a civilian contractor for a branch of the armed forces, or for a govt-funded company developing military technology? I know you’ve advised men seeking to join the military to proceed with caution and be prepared to wreck their career every day—does the same advice apply in this case? I question the morality of taking money from our government in its current state, even for the legitimate cause of national defense.
Douglas
Douglas, yes, the same advice would apply here.
More on Preterism
Dear Pastor Wilson: re: Theological Jenga & Full Preterism
When I first heard that you signed the letter to Gary DeMar, I was surprised because it seemed to me that some of the folks who had been asking him similar questions on Facebook has been engaged in some theological “gotcha.” After reading this article, though, I understand where you are coming from and why you have asked him these questions. And agree with your thoughts on full preterism; I too consider myself a partial-preterist. Given this, one comment and three questions.
You obviously spent a lot of time and effort explaining your position on this. In addition, you relied to some extent on non-Biblical sources, e.g., Jewish tradition and 2 Maccabees. Given this, it seems to me that this issue is not quite as black and white as some of DeMar’s critics (not you) make it seem.
My first question: do you consider it heretical not to affirm or to deny the three questions that have been asked of DeMar? Does denying, say, an end to history or the bodily return of Christ rise to the level of heresy?
A second question: which do you see as being a worse error, being mistaken about the beginning of history or the end? For example, which is worse: the claim that there is no general resurrection of the dead or denying that the world was created in six 24-hour days? I believe much damage has been done to the church by those who deny six 24-hour days.
A third question: Which is worse, Dispensationalism or the denial of bodily return of Christ? Again, I believe much damage has been done to the church by Dispensationalist and even some reformed premillennialists.
I ask these questions because I am trying to gain some context of the serious of this issue. Context is often hard to discern when people are yelling (again, not you).
Sincerely,
Bill
Bill, thanks for the thoughtful questions. Yes, I believe it is heretical to answer those three questions wrongly. I don’t know that it is heretical to not answer them, although that is worrying. The concern would have to do with why the questions are not answered. The second question is that I believe theistic evolution is almost as serious as a denial of the resurrection, but there are forms of old earth thinking that are simply error, and not heresy. And then last, I agree that dispensationalism has done a lot of damage, but I believe they are orthodox Christians.
Catechism Stuff
Hiya brother Doug—just two quick things: 1) Seriously not trying to steal anyone’s thunder but just in case the WSC tunes in the collection created by one of your church members are a bit too heavy for some folks’ taste, I had actually created a (perhaps more kid-friendly?) Singing Catechism back in 2010 to help the children in our church memorize the Shorter Catechism. It’s totally free of charge—I mean I won’t get angry if you toss me a buck or two if you’re so inclined (see description for PayPal address), but otherwise she’s free as a bird. Interested parties may listen to them online or download them for free on SoundCloud. Just understand that I’m not an actual musician and created all of the tunes (four of which are borrowed from Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart) using music annotation software that I learned while I used. Anyway, here’s the address:
https://soundcloud.com/shawn-hare/albums
2) I noticed at the top right of the email version of the end-of-the-week Blog and Mablog, just under your line drawing bust image, what appears to be an app with a bit DW on it. I clicked on it, but I got a message saying that it isn’t available in my country. I know Rhode Island is a funny little state but I didn’t realize that it counted as another country. Or maybe Apple is blocking it(?).
The Lord bless and keep you :)
Shawn
Shawn, thanks. We’ve long had our doubts about Rhode Island . . .
Thanks, I Think
I am grateful for the gigantic head the Lord has given you . . . and for your willingness to make use of said head.
I am almost 30 and hoping to move into the pastoral ministry at some point. I love sharpening my knowledge of God and His Word and have gained much from your works. At the moment, going to school for any sort of Bible education is not really on the table as my wife and I are currently trying to get through her student debt from the last few years. I find your story most encouraging as you yourself didn’t attend any formal schooling.
Currently, I am trying your “apostolic study Bible” approach where I link all of the OT quotes that are used in the NT but I’m wondering if you have any sort of guidance for a trajectory of self study. Should I be reading systematic theologies? Biographies? Are there any doctrines you wish you could have clarified much sooner in your discipleship journey? There is so much to read and the sea of options overwhelms me.
Thanks a ton,
C
C, I think you are starting at the right place. And here is a resource that I think might help.
Kickstarter Bible
Greetings Doug! Just wanted to tell you about a project that might pique your interest. With the help of some stalwart compatriots, we are publishing a facsimile edition of William Tyndale’s 1534 New Testament. It was his final New Testament before his martyrdom in 1536. For many centuries the world has not seen this book as it originally appeared. We have one of the only known copies left. You can learn more about it here.
As you know, this New Testament was the basis of over 90% of the King James translation, and had a massive impact on the English language as a whole. It’s a monumentally historical work, and we’re grateful and excited to be printing it for the plow boy once more. Feel free to pass along if you think this is something that other Christians might enjoy hearing about. If Canon Press is interested in carrying this at some point as well, we can talk.
Blessings,
Martyn
Martyn, thanks. Go, fight, win.
What Is High Church?
So I have this gut feeling that a more “high church” view of the word and sacrament is the correct view. By “high church” I mean that ordained men should be the primary people to baptize, serve the Lord’s supper and lead the service during the Sunday gathering. But I couldn’t argue it from Scripture. I know this is generally the Reformers’ and Puritans’ views. I simply don’t know why it was their view.
I attend a fairly normal Southern Baptist church where this is not the case, anyone can serve the Lord’s Supper, most of the men (lay members) take turns leading the call to worship and corporate prayer time. Generally people in my church and myself would defend this with the priesthood of all believers in 1st Peter.
I know you can’t make a large defense here, but could you recommend some resources on a “high church” view argued from the Scriptures? It would be greatly appreciated.
PS: Your son and NSA were appreciated by the guys at NotTheBee (BabylonBee) the other day
Shea
Shea, I would start with my little book A Primer on Worship and Reformation, and if you are a glutton for punishment, move on to Mother Kirk.
The Pledge
I’ve read your post in regards to the Pledge of Allegiance and I have a few questions. What are your thoughts on a Christian homeschool group meeting weekly and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and the pledge to the Bible? Lastly, do the students at Logos recite the pledge?
Tristan
Tristan, the kids at Logos memorize the Pledge, but do not say it daily. They recite it occasionally from memory in 1st, 2, and 3 grade. In 6th grathe pledge of allegiance from memory occasionally in class.” In 6th grade it reads: “Recite the pledge of allegiance from memory
and consider the history and Christian worldview of it (why and when it was introduced, concerns that Christians have with it, etc…). “
Video Games for Boys?
What are your thoughts on video games for young boys? Is it better not to expose them or to carefully curate and to help guide them in moderate use? Thank you!
Caleb
Caleb, I would go with “carefully curate,” but I would prefer to say disciplined use, rather than moderate use. You obviously don’t want vile games, but even acceptable games can encourage boys to go down the wormhole. And I would look at other aspects of their lives—how are their grades?, do they play outside? and do they read books?
Europe?
Do you have any partnership going on with any Church in Europe?
If not, do happen to know any presbyterian one over here? thank you for your work
AC
AC, yes, we have connections there, mostly in eastern Europe. A lot depends on where you are. If any like-minded Europeans want to chime in here, it might help AC to connect.
Questions
My name is William Stanton, I am 26 years old, a husband to a wonderful wife and a father to two children. Over the past year and a half my wife and I have come to a reformed understanding of the Scriptures. During the beginning process of our journey towards reformed theology (much of which was influenced by cannon press) we were leaning towards presbyterian thoughts. While talking through these thoughts with our elders, who are Reformed Baptist, we best understood their view of credo baptism.
Within the past month, however, through numerous unsought circumstances my wife and I both started researching what the scriptures had to say concerning covenant theology, paedo baptism, and paedo communion. After much prayer and consideration, we brought this to our elders. They informed us that if we do continue in this belief, it would mean a termination of membership until we are able to find another church.
They asked us to complete a list of questions concerning our presbyterian way of thinking. While there has been much conflict, I desire to continue respecting those whom God has placed in authority over me and to move forward with answering their questions and following their procedure of the church membership.
With all this said, their questionnaire is why I am reaching out to you. While I have gone through a number of presbyterian books, sermons, and debates, I am still in the beginning process of understanding this new theology. Many of the questions I feel equipped to answer, but there are some I would appreciate some advice on. If you are able or have the time, I would greatly appreciate it! If not, I understand and appreciate you reading through this letter.
Grace and Peace,
William
William, why don’t you raise those questions here? Maybe we can help direct you to the right books.
I’ve been thinking a lot about the nature of the New Covenant recently as I’ve thought through several connected issues (baptism chiefly).
I’m a Reformed Baptist and I really like a lot of what you have to say about the objectivity of the New Covenant. I’m uneasy with a hard and fast distinction between the visible church and the “true church” like many like to make.
So, my question is, how much Federal Vision-like theology is consistent with a Baptistic understanding of Covenant theology?
Chaz
Chaz, it would be my thought that they would be pretty hard to reconcile.
Sunday School?
Curious on your thoughts on Sunday school. Does Christ Church have Sunday school prior to the service? If so, what sorts of stuff would be taught there that wouldn’t be in the sermon?
Thanks
Tim
Tim, no, we don’t have Sunday School. But if we did, it would probably be a catechism class, where the kids memorized the Westminster Shorter Catechism, or the Heidelberg.
Jews and Envy
Thanks for responding to my questions.
I grew up in a household that assumed a rather inarticulate version of semi-pelagian dispensationalism. I’m currently 48 years old. From my mid 20’s to the present I’ve steadily moved to a Calvinist/covenantal/post-mill persuasion. My views about “The Jews” and Zionism have changed a lot. Much, (if not most), of dispensationslism is characterized by a veneration of “The Jews” that can lead to some pretty weird places, (including but not limited to things such as the Hebrew roots movement).
Sometimes it seems that a residue of dispensational sentiment carries over into various versions of covenantalism. This is fine of course if the text demands it. Because you are a cultural/theological/philosophical “mover and shaker” I enjoy and have been somewhat influenced by your works. My eldest daughter moved out to Moscow to be immersed in the church culture and is hoping to attend NSA. I was and continue to be supportive of her move. I offer these things to at least suggest a good faith effort on my part as I interact with your published views or perhaps my misperceptions of them. That being said, it seems to me that you accuse Christians of being jealous of the Jews but at the same time want them to be jealous of the Jews. In my previous letter I asked a question…something like, “Where are you finding reformed gentile christians who are jealous of unbelieving Jews?” I wasn’t asking about pagans, kinists, dispensationalists, Baptists, etc.
I perhaps should’ve additionally asked, “Is there a way in which you wish reformed gentile Christians were jealous of the Jews?”. As a gentile reformed Christian it’s a struggle to find a uniquely Jewish virtue that we should be preoccupied with coveting.
Do you have a kinist faction in your church that is particularly unsavory? Do you have parishioners who have a jealousy towards the Jews rooted in materialism? What is begetting the jealousy that you speak of? My line of reasoning is that my reformed theology is not offering me suggestions of how I ought to be jealous of the Jews. Should it? What type of theology is begetting this particular covetousness?
Sincerely
Dale
Dale, thanks for the question. I do think there is a misperception. I don’t want Gentile Christians to be envious of the Jews at all. I want the true Israel to learn how to live under the covenantal blessings of God, and to do so in such a way as to provoke the Jews to envy them. I believe that antisemitism is the result of envying Jews, and I think we ought to knock it off entirely. And if you can hold on for a few months, I have turned a manuscript in to Canon Press on this very subject, and have tried to treat the subject in an in-depth way.
@william
I highly recommend “Children of the Promise,” by Robert R. Booth. An excellent primer on the Covenant as told by a pastor who went through your exact journey. Pastor Booth was an elder in a Reformed Baptist church, and simply by asking these questions, he was made to leave. I think you’ll find his approach quite readable and familiar.
Andy
I wonder: What would you say about like John Stott, who clearly believed Adam and Eve were real people but believed tenuously that they might have had subhuman ancestors, or that there were people before Adam and Eve? To clarify,I do not believe that man came from apes (or that birds came from dinosaurs or reptiles from amphibians), though I do tenuously believe in millions of years, and I agree that it is important, though not a salvation issue, to believe Adam and Eve were real, and I think they were the first human beings, and that Genesis 2 is… Read more »
My first question for you would be, Why do you need the millions of years? There are plenty of PhD scientists who believe the Bible from the very first verse who have absolutely no need to add years to its history. See creation.com or answersingenesis.org (hopefully I put the correct extensions on those addys…).
I have checked those sites, I have found some arguments to be weak, though I can respect the opinions of those who are not dogmatic that there are no gaps in the genealogies. Genesis 1 could be a poem or it could be something to take literally, there are some problems with the sixth day being 24 hours, since if Adam were created at 6 in the morning, it would be quite a squeeze for him to name all those animals, get put to sleep, it seems, for at least a few hours, and then wake up to see his… Read more »
There is no historical precedent in Christianity for an Old Earth before the nineteenth century however; prior to (non-christian) uniformitarians like Charles Lyell everyone believed the Earth was only a few thousand years old. I understand your stance, but it seems to be born partly out of a lack of reading the better YEC literature. The “too many things on day 6” argument is easily debunked, since Adam only named the “beasts of the field and birds of the air,” and that only in kinds, not every single species of all living organisms. In terms of the difference between scientific… Read more »
Charles Lyell, to all appearances, was, at least nominally, an Anglican, and it is not clear whether he believed in evolution even later in life, that is easy to prove, I do not know if we know enough about him from creditable sources to know whether he was a believer, but he wasn’t the militant atheist that some creationists have tried to paint him as. The kinds theory bothers me because, if there were just families of animals, or a few genera within the families, how did they change so fast? Strangely enough, there is a wide range in the… Read more »
Laurel, Allow me to turn the question around. Why do you need such a short time frame to to believe the Bible accurate? There are plenty of PhD scientists who believe a literal translation and still hold to an old earth? As you can see, these questions go much deeper than just asking why? There are some really tremendous arguments for old earth and I have changed my own views about the age of the earth/universe as a result.
Rob, I think I am in the same boat as you. I can’t get around the radioactive dating of rocks, the geologic column, the astronomical data, and the fact that the flood is not represented in the geological strata everywhere around the world. So, taking the earth as old, the next question is, what about life? If life is old, then death occurred before the fall. That is a problem, but one can say that the fall was only talking about human death. Still, kind of a hard pill for me to swallow. But given death of animals before the… Read more »
It is my contention that the YEC folks have shot themselves in the foot in fearing the discoveries that scientists have been making regarding the universe. I don’t support so-called science, that which is agenda driven, but lets not become part of the problem, supporting the indefensible, which is why YEC is having such a difficult time with keeping their kids from falling off the wagon after attending godless universities. Let’s start using the brain God has given us and the wisdom He provides to distinguish between good science and agenda drive science. A case in point. We can all… Read more »
I’m very much in the same place, Rob. I think evolution was always a crap theory and the evidence just keeps piling on. But a young earth is a hard sell, and not one that the language in Genesis requires. I think it does best with six 24hr days of creating, but that doesn’t mean what was created is necessarily young.
I agree with what Dale says about much/most of dispensationalism being about venerating the Jews/modern Israel. This issue was the thing that caused my initial discomfort in dispensationalism and my ultimate exit from it. (I didn’t mean to become a “dispensationalist” when I became a Christian, but it just seems like what most people believe, at least on some level. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that most who fall into this category aren’t even familiar with the term “dispensational.” I was one and didn’t even know it was “a thing.”) When I began questioning it all with church… Read more »
For me the biggest question is the stars. I don’t have a problem with God creating trees as full-grown (very few if any creationists of any sort would say that Adam was created as a baby boy and woke up to see a baby girl who would be his wife!) but why do we see stars blow up a million light years away if they were created a few thousand years ago? Also, it seems that the continents have moved about quite a bit over time, and it seems hard to imagine that Pangea split up in the flood only… Read more »
Significant phenotype shifts (whether animal or human) can actually be incredibly rapid, and there is much we don’t know about the shortening lifespans and the very direct changes God was making to humanity in the early chapters of Genesis. I would not put much stock in any concerns there. As for the stars and the continents. If God creates a full-grown tree and you cut it down, does it have rings? I would expect so. I think when God created reality (in six 24hr days as He said, in the order described, some 6k yrs ago), He created all of… Read more »
Why? Because God wanted us to be able to see things like stars blowing up, and He wanted stars over a vast expanse of millions of light years. That seems at least a fully plausible answer that raises no theological or logical problems. The logistical “problem” is solved by His simply creating the effects of those things in transit, as He is entirely free to do, just as He might have chosen to create the stars only as points of origin and then make us have to wait millions of years to see anything interesting going on. Neither seems more… Read more »
There really isn’t any practical difference between God on the 4th day creating “new” stars with starlight in transit so they “appear old” and God on the 4th day creating “old” stars with billions of years of real history. But i think the philosophical difference is significant. The former description leads to accusations of God “deceiving” us with “apparent age” and needlessly keeps from God the ability to instantly create a real past for a tree or rock or star. Accepting that God can create real, actual history for his creations is a better harmonization of natural revelation (observed age/distance… Read more »
This seems like an odd view. God cannot “instantly create a real past for a star” if by that you mean that the star was both extant, and not extant, on the third day. God also cannot make a statement both true and false at the same time. Creating real, actual history is something God does. But he does it one day at a time so as not to contradict himself. If my son is born two years from now, God cannot just arbitrarily assign him a past that is five years long. The idea is self-contradictory: omnipotence does not… Read more »
There is nothing nonsensical about it, as it is reasoned out and coherent, firmly backed by relativity, the obviously relevant analogy of how human authors build fictional worlds. And let’s not call God’s choices in creating “arbitrary” or merely “assigned”! And there’s still the fact that the stars are measurably far away and God said He made them all on day 4. If he made them on day 4 and made them distant, it means light from them is necessarily old. So you either have to say, “No, we’re measuring those distances wrong.” which i think is *very* hard to… Read more »
I will ask the question again. If a star is created on day 4 with what you are calling “real history”, did it exist on day 3? That is a yes-or-no question.
That’s only a yes-no question if you begin with the assumption of a singular perspective on time. I do not, nor does the Bible support that well, nor does relativity.
If you believe time is more complicated and perspectives matter, then you must first define the perspective before the question can be answered. From Adam’s perspective, looking back in history? Yes, the star existed 3 days ago and 3 million years ago. From God’s perspective, as He describes his process of creation? No, the star did not exist the day before he created it (and its ancient history).
A third option is that we have no idea what we’re looking at. So a star exploded, and we call that a supernova. Okay. But the articles I read on what that is, what causes it, etc. are filled to the brim with evolutionary premises and runaway theories that excite the imagination of a Star Trek generation. But the entire set of hypotheses–indeed, the whole foundation of modern secular astronomy–is that there was a Big Bang. Literally everything hinges on that religious belief. We can observe stuff, measure a few things, and calculate others, but ALL of those are filtered… Read more »
No, that’s quite incorrect. Very little in astronomy hinges on the presumption of the Big Bang.
And Darwinian evolution is (and always was) a lousy speculation and unsupported theory. No one needs to reconcile anything with it.
The deception charge is a non-starter, since He told us what He did. You can’t simultaneously truthfully explain what you did, and be lying about it. God is under no ethical obligation to ensure that people who aren’t listening don’t get the wrong idea, nor would anyone else be who acted in a similar fashion.
Would it bother you to discover that God had miraculously implanted you with detailed synthetic memories of many significant interactions with people who had never existed? Would you not consider this to be deceptive? When God tells us that He created the world in six days, we believe Him. That’s fine. But if there was no interpretation of His creation that does not include detailed synthetic histories of many significant interactions that never had time to occur, there would be a problem of deception. And, in particular, if we can determine in detail the history of supernovae that never existed… Read more »
But there is such an interpretation of creation — the one that starts with assuming that His statement of creation the world in six days is literally accurate. If He HADN’T told us how He created, left us to figure it out, and left a breadcrumb trail indicating it took much longer, yet the truth was it was only six days, that would be deceptive. But if He told us it took six days, it is at least possible and in no way positioning Him as deceptive to start with the assumption of six days and reconcile and adjust our… Read more »
Yes, I absolutely agree with all of that. Maybe our wires got crossed somewhere? My point was that God would not have arbitrarily fabricated a detailed illusion of age in the stars or trees or rocks. Any age we perceive beyond what He’s told us is either *real* (whatever that may mean), or else is a misunderstanding due probably more to our own sinfulness than to honest confusion. So specifically, when He tells us He made all the stars on the fourth day, there can’t be any shenanigans where what He really meant was that on that day in the… Read more »
Jane, I very much respect your opinions and they way you express them, but honestly that is more a convenient answer than a plausible one that satisfies the question. It’s not a question of what God can do (A: anything) but what does the evidence suggest God did do, without presupposing anything other than what scripture tells us.
I understand that. My point is only that because it is a plausible answer, it is not ruled out as a reasonable interpretation.If God could sensibly and honestly have done that, then it is in the universe of possible reasonable interpretations of Genesis, providing it fits with the text.
It’s also a fully plausible answer that we truly have no idea what we’re looking at through our expensive telescopes. We think we see stars blowing up–and it’s fine to develop a theory along those lines–but we don’t really know. It’s entirely possible that God painted the night sky with trillions of tiny dots and swirls of color purely for our delight. But let’s say the secular scientists guessed correctly and God blew up a star. How does a Christian astronomer reconcile that? Either 1) God created stars a million light-years away, blew some of them up, and also created… Read more »
Jane, It’s plausible and He is entirely free to do so, but why? Why does He need to? It makes more sense for God to just begin at the beginning and not mess around with “effects.” And, I’m not talking theistic evolution here. Just plain ole cause and affect as God would have it. There are things about creation we will never put together but it just seems silly for God to use smoke and mirrors. He is the eternal Father and has been busy for…….. well, eternity.
He doesn’t “need” to, but He doesn’t need not to have, either. There is nothing we know of God’s nature that makes it more or less consistent for Him either to have taken a long time, or a very short time. But our starting point needs to be what He has told us.
It’s not smoke and mirrors if He says, “This is what I did.” And then, just the way humans have always done, we explore what He has done and what that means, without putting our own understanding prior to what He has revealed to us about it.
If He is creating with “effects”….. things that are not “real”, in the sense that we cannot rely on the science to come to observable cause and affects, then why even create the laws that science uses to search out matters…. matters He Himself told us to search out. No, He is also the God of science. Just because we have scientist denying the God of the universe doesn’t mean we can’t rely on scientific discoveries. Unbelieving scientists are just more culpable because they see the truth than they would ever be without seeing it. Romans clearly states “men” will… Read more »
“Just because we have scientist denying the God of the universe doesn’t mean we can’t rely on scientific discoveries.” It depends. The more political and controversial the subject (COVID, “climate change,” etc.), the more likely we’re not hearing the truth. We may hear partial truths while other facts are conveniently ignored. Peer review doesn’t necessarily help, either. The problem of peer review – Vox Popoli (voxday.net) I’m not specifically talking about the topic at hand. But if scientists suddenly found strong evidence of a young earth, I don’t expect it would be honestly reported in academic circles or mainstream news.… Read more »
The effects are perfectly real. It just means that our powers of extrapolation are limited. This is the peculiar myopia of the physical sciences. Look, extrapolation is great, but it falls flat in lots of cases. Think of a bride: yesterday you had 0 husbands, today you have n+1 husbands, tomorrow… Why does that fail? Because we know what weddings are and can say they do not work like that. The underlying question is: do we understand the global context of the thing we are measuring well enough to extrapolate properly and get good results? And when you are talking… Read more »
Again, the “effects” are not real in the sense they were caused by the natural laws of physics (i.e. light travel). The same laws that the lawgiver set up to run a universe to meet the expectations He deemed necessary to achieve His own ends. No believing christian doubts what God can do with cause and affect and how He bends the natural laws for His own purpose but it just all seems so unnecessary to create the natural laws and then start bending them in order to make things look a certain way. He saw the end from the… Read more »
Speaking of stars blowing up, have you ever heard of the Crab Nebulae? The light of the explosion came into Earth’s atmosphere in the late 1050s. It was so bright you could see it in the daytime for three months and it looked like Earth had a second moon for three years. It is the inspiration for William the Conqueror to invade England. Everywhere that had writing recorded the Nebulae.
The starlight question is not a new one, but the men who are studying it have started with the premise that the Bible is true from the very first verse. Jason Lisle and Russell Humphreys have done extensive research and come up with some very plausible theories. But, the bottom line is, they decided from the beginning that the Bible is right and that we just have a lot to learn. I think it was James Clerk Maxwell who said, “We are thinking God’s thoughts after Him.” The point being God gave us a history, either we believe what He… Read more »
Amen.
I think the key reason for much confusing around the creation account and the apparent age of the universe is that people think (unbiblically) that God can only directly create *things* and cannot (or does not) create *time*. But Einstein showed space and time and matter and energy are inseparable. God is the Creator of spacetime itself, past, present, and future. And if He said He did that in thematic layers on each of six 24hr days around 6k years ago, who are you to doubt Him? Why would you even doubt Him? This is how human authors do world-building… Read more »
Category error here. Your description of “creating a tree with many years of history in a single day” does not actually correspond to anything any subcreator typically does in writing. When an author takes five minutes of real time to describe a fictional tree’s history, the fictional history is consistent: there are years involved. But for a full-grown tree to spontaneously appear in a given location between chapters that are said to be only a day apart would either require magic/a miracle, or it would be an error in writing. And if genuine actual history (within the fictional setting) spontaneously… Read more »
The creator of the concept of time can’t hit the fast-forward button?
Hi Kristina, I think your theories are not absolutely impossible, but I think Nathan is representing the more broadly presented YEC view on this issue. The idea of “apparent age” has certainly fallen out of favor in YEC camps from what I’ve seen, and I agree that it is more philosophically difficult (though not ruled out) but I think there are better explanations that don’t need to invoke apparent age. What Nathan is saying is that God literally causes the tree to spring up from the ground, but it wouldn’t have rings etc. that give an appearance of age, (consistent… Read more »
One thing I would like to see more of is a healthy dose of skepticism of the larger scientific community. The Darwinists who tell us the universe is billions and billions of years old are also the ones who say the stars are out there blowing up, expanding away from us, and red-light shifting. They also say those stars are millions upon millions of light-years away and unfathomably large. They soak themselves in lofty terms like “astronomical units” and pontificate on what exists on the other side of a black hole, as if the reality of a gravity sink so… Read more »
Andrew, Skepticism you want, skepticism you shall have. The bigger blunder that secular scientists make is not that they are all in lock step with a clever conspiracy about the age of the earth being billions of years old but that they are in denial of the creator God, all the while seeing the truths of age, up close and personal. As I have stated before, they are all over the truth about age but deny the truth giver. A more damnable error than not seeing the plain truth for what it is….that God is the ancient of days and… Read more »
It’s all confusing from our limited, time-bound perspective. Especially the multiplicity of Nathans! I think things being created “mature” instead of “actually aged” are definitely one of the ways God creates. Pretty clear from the text He did that with Adam & Eve, did it with the loaves and fishes, etc. I don’t agree, though, that it is a continuity or category error for God on day 4 to create stars that actually have billions of years of real history. I think that comes from two assumptions: 1) That God can only create space and matter but not time (which… Read more »
The reason I called it a category error is because your description is not of Him reaching into the story’s past —which is fine— but rather of Him giving two inconsistent descriptions of the story’s past, which cannot be reconciled and are both said to be true. That is, you’re describing this sort of temporal paradox as being in the category of extra-temporal authorial work, but it’s actually in the category of intra-temporal paradox. God does not create time loops, not because that’s a rock too big for Him to lift, but because that doesn’t make sense. God does not… Read more »
The theory of relativity combined with the astronomical evidence has placed the age of the universe at something like 13.7 billion years old. I don’t hold this absolutely, but I don’t see a good reason to seriously doubt it, as the theory of relativity is based upon solid experiments that have been verified in many ways over many years, and the astronomical evidence is undisputed for this claim. The amazing thing about Astro-physics and particle physics is, if you just stop and listen to it for a minute, you will learn amazing things. For example, the first thing created in… Read more »
Relativity doesn’t have much to do with the age of the universe, except that it does offer a way (gravitational time dilation) to explain how one part of the universe can be much older than another part. The age of the distant stars etc is established by velocity redshift, not gravitational redshift, and this was determined before general relativity was finished. Unfortunately, I don’t think unbelievers will be much impressed by an earnest explanation that Genesis 1 is really describing the Big Bang, just exactly the way they say! In any case, theoretical physics is already moving on to try… Read more »
‘inject more “real” history into the past of an object than there was time for’ Nope. If God can create matter and space, then He can create time and is not limited by time in the creation of time. That’s a paradox, if anything is. It’s crazy to me to subject the eternal Creator of all history (past, present, and future) to the limitations of time when He does all that creating. Your “both 12 hours old and 120 years old” only doesn’t make sense because you use the same word ‘old’ for two different things. The first is a… Read more »
Off topic but an update and cautionary tale about a heavily-debated topic from 5 or 6 years ago. A few wokescolds here quickly joined the Roy Moore lynch mob in the comment section. They believed #metoo and the now-even-more discredited WaPo’s 11th-hour hit piece over the word of a good Christian man. Not only did Moore win a $8.2 million defamation suit, but we now know some really bad actors and propagandists were involved: “New Knowledge…created fake Russian Twitter social media accounts that followed Moore, resulting in news stories that the Kremlin was backing Moore in the race. A 12-page New… Read more »
Here are more comments than anyone should ever want to read as an example:
Fried Brown on Both Sides | Blog & Mablog (dougwils.com)
I’ll stick my head above the parapet. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This is a non-negotiable truth. There is something rather than nothing due to personal choice, not chance or a cosmic accident. What follows in Gen 1 is also true and the word of God, divine revelation. How exactly it is to be understood is a matter of interpretation. These two get confused sometimes. Personally I have come to regard it as literal history told partly in symbolic form. The endless discussions about how literal it is are bascially an attempt to distil how… Read more »
The problem with this “it can be interpreted either way” approach is that it can’t be true. God either did create only a few thousand years ago or he didn’t. Genesis isn’t intended to mean both or neither. The grammar of the text clearly is speaking of literal days, as per the use of Yom in the passage and the definition of “the evening and the morning, one day.” Genesis 2:4 actually contains a different grammatical construction, beYom, which is used elsewhere in scripture to mean “when” or “at the time,” but yom by itself refers to an actual day,… Read more »
Jonathan,
You’ve clearly thought through this and I don’t want to try to convince you of a position that I’m only tenuously holding (OEC), but I do think that you can be open to calling it a secondary issue and allowing that sincere and thoughtful Christians can hold either position and still be orthodox, while also advocating for your position. And I don’t believe it’s true that no one held an old earth view before the 19th century. Several church fathers held that Genesis 1 was figurative, such as St. Augustine.
MPF, I certainly did not mean to imply that OEC is outside the bounds of Orthodoxy. I personally know many faithful and upright OEC Christians, in fact the majority of Christians (even conservatives) at the moment seem to be OEC. So yes, I do believe it is a secondary issue. What I intended to communicate is that I still believe it is important. I don’t think we should just shrug our shoulders and give it the “who knows?” treatment. So I agree with all you said about that. As to the church history claim, you bring up an important nuance,… Read more »
Thanks, I did not know that about Augustine. And I agree with your first paragraph.
This discussion is very difficult in a comment section, but there are many misconceptions here. 1. The allegorical interpretation approach to Gen 1 was not due to the book of Enoch or other intertestamental or apocryphal texts. The fathers who followed it were clear that they had textual reasons for not taking the days of creation as a historical sequence and the most common by far was the creation of the lights of heaven on the 4th day. Almost everyone who has thought about it realizes you can’t have solar days without the sun, so the days discussed *must* have… Read more »
If you want more information in a relatively non-biased, though non-expert, format both the PCA and OPC have had fairly recent reports on creation that are pretty helpful with regards to history (but not science!). There is a response to the PCA report called “PCA geologists on the Antiquity of the Earth” that is worth reading, but could be stronger. I think the examples they give are easily sufficient in themselves if presented more throughly, but there are many further more straightforward examples.
I originally accepted the literal 6 day creation because those teaching it were men of faith and believed the bible. But I did so unthinkingly, not a good idea! More recently I have revisited it thinking for myself. The 6 days begin with God said, the heavens and the earth were already in existence. Genesis doesn’t date how old the universe is. The late David Pawson has done some good stuff on this issue. What I took from him was Christians should avoid praising or using science when it suits them and disparaging it when it doesn’t. He also cautions… Read more »
What would happen if this coming June (Goeth before a fall) Month we unashamed Christians built crosses. Wooden ones for the first salvo, steel ones if the wooden ones get destroyed (perhaps wooden ones with steel cores), and we just stand along the route of the Parade. Not aggressively. Perhaps even silently. Using the cross as a silent but unmistakable rebuke. No inciting to riot, just mute testimony. (If one must speak let them only speak the gospel of Christ: His death, burial, and resurrection for the forgiveness of our sins. It would take a good bit of message discipline… Read more »
I happen to think this sort of response at a parade does little good. It’s a sort of in-your-face response that antagonizes, but never changes hearts. Staying home in prayer would probably do more in the long run. I like the idea of readying ourselves, for when things fall apart for the wicked, with an answer for the “hope that lies within us.” And it will fall apart….. it is falling apart, and there will be questions coming our way. Be ready with the gospel.
AC, re your Europe question: we’re currently in the process of setting up a CREC church in Jersey, Channel Islands, UK. We’re five like-minded families who have a burden to start such a church and we hope to be set up by August 2023. We’d love to get connected with likeminded saints in Europe! If anyone wants to connect/pray/support us financially, please do get in touch: nd.deacon@gmail.com. Cheers!