Exiled Nigerian Princes

Of course the homo-jihadis believe in reparative therapy. They have been doing it to America for years, and it works very well. America used to be straight, and now it is . . . very bent.No Sense

In a recent display of their reparative therapy techniques, protesters have shown up to a conference on counseling held at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. They did this in order that the height of their high dudgeon must be made the more visible.

The accusation being made is that these Christian counselors think that you can “pray the gay away,” and that no matter how thin you slice it, it is still reparative therapy. Ick. Poo.

“They say they don’t support reparative therapy, but they do,” said Henry Brousseau, who identifies as a transgender man. “They support praying the gay away, and we don’t believe being gay is something you have to fix or change.”

Ah, but that is plainly not the issue. The protesters say that being gay is not a broken condition and does not require fixing. But they go much further than this. They also clearly believe that being gay is something you have to be required by law NOT to fix or change. In fact, you may not be permitted even to try.

They want us, under the right circumstances, meaning circumstances that favor their agenda, to believe that our sexualities are fluid, plastic, malleable. But once you arrive in the world of the transgressive letters, the LGB,ETC, the fluidity of all things somehow sticks there. You can bounce around among the naughty letters as much as you want, and maybe even get a book deal, but you cannot go back to S. That might remind somebody of reparative therapy. This is because going back to straight reminds everybody too much of repentance, and anything that reminds Americans of repentance must be strictly outlawed.

So you can’t pray the gay away. Wait. If I can drive my sexuality car in any direction I want, totally up to me, why can’t I pray in the direction I want to drive?

The sexual revolution is tied up in self-contradictory knots. They want to be the party of “anything goes,” but then notice how their tyrannical impulses crawl into everything. They want certain kinds of sexual counseling banned. In California, they want every encounter to be at least a threesome — the two aroused ones, and a lawyer, who is aroused by the paperwork.

In the meantime, boys aren’t boys necessarily, but yes has to mean yes. Girls could be cis-girls, but there is no such thing as cis-yes, or a trans-yes either. And if a man goes through transgender surgery, can he then declare himself a lesbian because he still likes girls?

So here is a brief outline and/or crib sheet to help you understand what the premises of sexual anarchy require, however much the anarchists may protest that we are misrepresenting their position.

1. “I was born this way.” “Gender is a social construct.” Well, which is it? And if gender is a social construct then why can’t reparative therapists help construct it?

2. A bisexual is currently prohibited by law (haters!) from expressing his or her sexuality in and through marriage. A bisexual woman, say, who marries somebody has to pick which sex to marry, and then her sexual yen for the other kind, whenever it arises, has to be pursued adulterously. Haters simply do not know how much shame they cause in this world. Why can’t her marriage license reflect the way she was BORN, people!? We have to insist on three names on that thing. Otherwise we are all still in the grip of misandrogynophobia. And that would be terrible.

3. Wait. I mis-spoke. Limiting it to three is not possible. We have to go higher. Because if she marries the other kind, then that third person has a constitutionally-protected right to be bisexual too. And the fact that she has the hots for Suzy does not require that she feel the same way about Suzy’s first choice, Fred. Her alternative yearning is directed toward David, who is also, as it turns out, bisexual, and he wants to bring Henrietta on board. And he likes her twin sister too, ever since that hot night of mistaken identity.

We also have to create a category for what happens when Suzy falls out with Fred, and has an in-house affair with David. And then Fred and Henrietta take it up, divorce everybody else, and head off to a small town somewhere in Montana, where they can pretend to have been normal the whole time.

4. A brother and a sister have had a deep emotional connection for as long as they can remember. They tried to suppress it for so long because they were afraid of the haters and shamers, who are still so numerous among us. So deep and abiding is their devotion that he got a vasectomy, and she got her tubes tied, and now they so desperately want to be married. If any baby manages to be conceived anyhow, because of the risk of birth defects, both father and mother promise to chop the baby up into pieces.

5. Jeepers. Polygamy is starting to look pretty tame, isn’t it?

6. Are we going to be allowed to marry robots?

7. Are vibrators robots?

8. And there, leering in the background, are the pedophiles and seekers-after-fresh-flesh. There are those out there who believe that the slippery slope magically ceases to be such ten yards from the bottom. They have probably said something like, “That, at least, will never be mainstreamed.” Such people are the reason that exiled Nigerian princes get up in the morning to go contact kind-hearted people on the Internet.

Stand by for a long sentence. Please keep in mind that out of all the people who hiss at me for my political-incorrectness on this matter, and who are outraged at my suggestion (nay, more like insistence) that adult/minor sex will ever be accepted by this UPRIGHT society of ours should reflect on the fact that millions of these same outraged people are planning to vote for Hillary, whose husband’s flights on the Lolita Express are the stuff of legend among the horny old guys.

Here is the bad news, helicopter crash division. A society as rebelliously muddled as ours is a society that cannot survive. Unintelligibility is not a marching creed, and incoherence is not a governing philosophy. When the center cannot hold, everything falls apart. When the center does not hold, we will all discover how many things the center was in fact holding.

Turns out there was a lot of water behind that dam we blew up.

Now when I say that America cannot survive, I do not mean that we have to be destroyed by flaming mile-wide asteroids from Heaven. No. Stupid cultures are quite capable of going out with a whimper. Societies that have been blinded by a judicial blindness from God are societies that are — follow me closely here — blind.

And so long as you are blind, you cannot see the way of escape. But blindness or no, I will declare it regardless. Jesus Christ was crucified for all these lusts and many more like them, and then He rose from the dead. He is therefore the Lord and Savior of this misbegotten nation. If He wants to forgive us, there is no way for us to stop it.

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Bryan Hangartner
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Bryan Hangartner

So sad – who would’ve thought that thinking things out to their inevitable conclusion could get someone such a vast horde of haters?

Marcus Smith
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Marcus Smith

Actually, in terms of formal discussion, point 1: “I was born this way.” “Gender is a social construct.” These two assertions come from very different groups with different identities, goals, and purpose. While there may be overlap between the groups, the second quote comes from feminism not the gay rights movement. While it seems humorous to put them side by side, it is logical equivocation to set them as equals and then try to make a cogent argument on the result. And I encountered quite a lot of good logical teaching in the public school system, and would not consider… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
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Jane Dunsworth

“While there may be overlap between the groups, the second quote comes from feminism not the gay rights movement.” It’s not limited to that. There are those who consider themselves “gender fluid,” and of course there’s transgenderism. What started with “gender is a social construct” as a prop for feminism, has come to mean that my gender is whatever I say it is, whenever I choose to say it — and not only is my gender what I say it is, but the meaning of my gender being what it is, is also what I say it is. And that… Read more »

Krychek_2
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Krychek_2

There are lots of gay people who do not believe their gender to be fluid. But assuming it is, that still leaves unresolved the question of why they would choose to steer it in the direction of heterosexuality if they’re happy being gay.

Jane
Member

Yes, there are many gay people who do not believe gender to be fluid,

But the intellectual foundation of the idea that sexual preference is hard-wired, has nearly 100% overlap with the intellectual foundation of the idea that gender is fluid. Who says #1, has no way to resist the arguments of #2, and will almost certainly be making them himself in short order.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Whether it’s fluid or hard wired is a question of fact, not philosophy, and the answer may be different from one person to another. Sexuality is probably a continuum, with most people at one end of it, but with people scattered all across it. It’s probably fluid for people in the middle of the continuum; not so much for people at either end.

Jane
Member

It is a fact, but it is not a knowable fact with current technology. I am not sure it is a fact that is knowable by technology at all, kind of like “Does man have a soul?” Therefore since one’s position on this is always and only arrived at philosophically, it seems reasonable to observe that ideas have consequences, and related ideas will eventually reveal themselves to have related consequences.

Krychek_2
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Krychek_2

I’m not sure that any fact is fully “knowable” since it’s always possible our instruments are flawed or there is more information still to come in. That said, there is significant work that has been done in this field, and whether something can be changed is something that can be tested. Female sexuality appears to be more fluid than male sexuality. It’s a continuum, but most people are at one side or the other. There is some evidence pointing to sexual orientation being caused by the chemicals to which a fetus was exposed in the womb, but that’s not yet… Read more »

holmegm
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holmegm

If they wouldn’t, then they have nothing to fear from some therapist across town seeing somebody who isn’t them.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

It is one thing to say that the stream is fluid, and it therefore will meander wherever it meanders. It is another thing entirely to put a dam in the middle of the stream and force it to go in a different direction than where it would have gone on its own, which is what reparative therapy seeks to do. And that’s the difference. I am not entirely opposed to occasionally damming the stream if it can be shown that the direction in which it is going is harmful to oneself or to others, but I don’t think that case… Read more »

Tim Mullet
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Tim Mullet

“I am not entirely opposed to occasionally damming the stream if it can be shown that the direction in which it is going is harmful to oneself or to others, but I don’t think that case has been made with respect to homosexuality.”

It fairly easy to demonstrate that sodomy harms people. The anus is not a natural counterpart for the penis. There is a reason why some people who engage in this sort of behavior end up having to wear adult diapers.

Krychek_2
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Krychek_2

See my response to gfkdzdds above.

John
Member

No , you stated “if it can be shown that the direction it is going is harmful to oneself.” There is extensive research to show that sodomy is harmful. You admit sodomy is harmful but now you want to change the discussion so sodomy must be harmful to others also.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

I do not acknowledge that non-promiscuous sodomy is harmful, either to oneself or to others. If I said something different it was sloppy writing rather than a nuanced reflection of my actual views.

Jane Dunsworth
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Jane Dunsworth

But what if part of me WANTS the stream to go in a different direction? Why does one part of the heart want win out, and the other is actually forbidden to be exercised by law?

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

I would oppose a flat ban on reparative therapy; I think that within limits people are entitled to buy snake oil if they choose to do so. If I were a therapist and you came to me wanting to change your sexual orientation, regardless of what that orientation is, I would first explore with you why you wanted to change it. If the answer is that you’re being guilt-tripped by your co-religionists, then reparative therapy would almost certainly be doomed to failure, and you should be fully aware of that. However, if you really believe that changing your sexual orientation… Read more »

Jane Dunsworth
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Jane Dunsworth

That is actually quite close to what I think, and probably essentially the same as the rest of us here. Nobody (in that vague rhetorical sense) believes that “being guilt-tripped by your co-religionists” is the path to sanctification, or an accurate description of true repentance.

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

Suppose you really believe that driving a Mack truck at age 10 will make you happy? Suppose you really believe that intercourse with a sheep will make you happy?

Suppose you decide that leaping off a tall building will make you happy? What if you really, really believe it? How dare we talk you down?

What limitation do we set on “what will make me happy must be reality”?

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Well, we’ve got some pretty good data on the harmful consequences of jumping off buildings and driving Mack trucks before one is mature enough to handle them. Not so sure about intercourse with sheep. Legally, the limitation should be whether your conduct is impacting on other people. In the more abstract philosophical sense, we all do things that aren’t good for us; I myself have a pretty bad ice cream habit that leaves me weighing more than I wish I did, and that could possibly lead to heart disease and high blood pressure. That, however, will not get me excommunicated… Read more »

herewegokids
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herewegokids

you might even believe that saying a prayer and arranging a shotgun wedding will cover your pastoral malpractice, minimize a pedophiles chance of reoffending, and offer an older not overly bright girl a chance at marital bliss, therefore making everyone happy….

but you would be wrong.

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

I could respond with substantive arguments, but you’re obviously enjoying beating the snot out of that straw man so much…and I really want to affirm you doing what makes you happy.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I believe adults should have the opportunity for reparative therapy assuming there is informed consent following a proper explanation of methodologies and outcomes. Studying psychology at university back in the seventies, I learned that reparative therapy for gays included: (1) administering painful shocks to the male organ while forcing the person to view gay porn; (2) administering drugs to induce uncontrollable vomiting while forcing the person to view gay porn; and (3) regressing the individual to an infantile state, including bottle feeding, in order to re-orient their early development. These three methods filled me with horror then, and they still… Read more »

John
Member

Please look at the research coming out of England regarding the damages of the homosexual lifestyle. Large increases in rectal infections, AiDS etc. Over 50% of 600 gay men who were studied in San Francisco contracted an STD within a year of the start of the study.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

It is stipulated that promiscuity is harmful, but that’s hardly a problem restricted to gay people. In fact, lesbians tend to be less promiscuous than heterosexual males, which actually makes sense if you stop to think about it since males generally are more promiscuous than females generally. But do you have any research that says that non-promiscuous homosexuals create any more harm for themselves or others than heterosexuals do?

Fighting_Falcon
Guest
Fighting_Falcon

Thanks for reading the article and making a critique instead of blasting noise. That’s a rare thing. Kudos.

drewnchick
Member

The problem with damming the stream is that sodomites insist on having their streams flow in a different direction. That’s why, as y’all keep saying, they create such slippery slopes and look for back doors.

Hey…I’m talking about their arguments, people!

Christopher
Member

Pedophilia has been clasified as a sexual orientation albiet one that needs to be curbed and controlled. This was tried with homosexuality around world war 2 which puts acceptance and aproval of pedophilia about 75 years out.

Monte Harmon
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Monte Harmon

Except than things are changing faster as we approach the event horizon.

timothy
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timothy

The heart wants what it wants.

Woody Allen’s rationale for having an affair with his adopted daughter.

circuschaser
Guest
circuschaser

I can’t help but anticipate now a flood of think pieces on the offensive way you’ve hastily generalized about every single old man, attorney, Californian, and sibling (and probably helicopter pilot too, in your heart).

clearly, you’re a misoctocalifornipilosolicitandrosibliphobe.

July Church
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July Church

The center is not likely to hold long in a world where clergymen think it’s a good idea for a guy who’s sexually assaulted several infants and toddlers to get married and sire his own children.

I can’t begin to imagine how much hubris it takes for a man who married Steven Sitler and Katie Travis to write an article condemning various other perversions of the institution of marriage.

Jon Swerens
Member

Hmm, you must have just arrived here. Perhaps you missed the dozens of conversations happening here over the past weeks?

July Church
Guest
July Church

Actually, I’ve read most of the conversations. And for all the bluster and verbosity and rumors of internet lynch mobs, and for all the people saying I guess you must’ve missed this or that, Doug Wilson still believes it was a good idea for Steven Sitler to marry Katie Travis after being caught and/or confessing to sexually assaulting several young children. A million people can come on here and post “but what about this” or “you’re forgetting that”, and it won’t change the fact that Doug Wilson still believes it was a good idea for Steven Sitler to marry Katie… Read more »

AMA
Guest
AMA

BREAKING NEWS: Pastor believes the Gospel applies to all sinners.

Tonight at 11.

Kevin Bratcher
Guest

You forget, psychiatrists with their statistics have disproved the covenant promises and nullified the Holy Spirit…
Oh wait, no they didn’t.

herewegokids
Guest
herewegokids

breaking news: pastors and elders throw innocent victims to the wolves bc of their desire to win in the out-forgiveness category coupled w severely jacked up theology and blind spots the exact size of their egos.

Jon Swerens
Member

Well, ho ho, the rumors of Internet mobs were pretty much true. Mobbing was kinda the point, yes?

I’m certainly always open to hearing the biblical case for any particular sin being the cause for barring someone from marriage. I absolutely invite you to bring it.

Jon Swerens
Member

IOW, I believe Pastor Tim Bayly absolutely has a point in his disagreement. But he built his disagreement on an understanding of Scripture. That always gets a hearing from me.

Darius
Guest
Darius

To be fair, what he believes is that if a couple wants to get married, particularly with the history of Sitler, that he (the pastor) should try to be as involved as possible to help them ward off potential issues, rather than turning them over to the world to make their own path. I mean, if we’re really being fair.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Please supply the source for “believes it was a good idea for Steven Sitler to marry Katie Travis.”

July Church
Guest
July Church
July Church
Guest
July Church

He mentions at the end his “great pleasure” that these two are now a married couple.

http://sitler.moscowid.net/2011/06/11/steven-sitler-wedding-ceremony/

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Can you give me a minute mark for that? It’s a very long, slow-loading video.

July Church
Guest
July Church

34:45

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Thank you. It seems like he was just announcing the couple in the way that is always done by the minister at weddings. He definitely should have had the foresight to omit this phrasing, and it’s unfortunate that he didn’t.

However, weighing that against his explanation (backed up by his session) that he opposed the marriage, counseled them against it, and only agreed to perform it so as to allow Christ Church to have continued oversight in their family, I’m inclined to say that “he thought it was a good idea” is unjustified.

July Church
Guest
July Church

Unjustified? He “agreed” with the judge who said the marriage was one of the best things that could happen for society: That said, I officiated at the wedding and was glad to do so. While we do not believe that marriage is an automatic “fix” for the temptations to molest children, we agree with Judge Stegner who approved the wedding and said that ‘an age-appropriate relationship with a member of the opposite sex from Mr. Sitler is one of the best things that can happen to him and to society” (emphasis added). Moreover, if everything is on the table, we… Read more »

Jon Swerens
Member

OK, so you believe the Church does have the authority to prohibit such a marriage? I’d actually really like to hear your Biblical argument.

July Church
Guest
July Church

I agree with the Bayly brothers. I don’t need to come up with a separate and different Biblical argument. You/’ve already said you read it, and think they have a point, so why are you demanding I post another, different argument, and defending Doug for his actions re the Sitler/Travis marriage?

Jon Swerens
Member

OK, your agreement with the Baylys is all I need to hear. I was not looking for any novel.

Most people who have criticized Wilson have not done the homework. I’m glad you have. Thank you.

Jon Swerens
Member

Because, frankly, you seemed to take a different tack than the tack taken by Bayly et al. Tim Bayly did not question Wilson’s fidelity to the Word or fitness as a pastor despite disagreeing with this decision.

July Church
Guest
July Church

Nor have I questioned Doug’s fidelity to the word or fitness as a pastor

Why do you just make stuff up about me?

Jon Swerens
Member

July: Really, you applied the word “hubris” to him. If you didn’t mean it, and you accused him rashly, then certainly I understand.

Jon Swerens
Member

So, forgive me if I read way too much into what certainly sounded like a condemnation of Wilson’s motives to my ears. Goodness, it can be hard to get this straight without facial expression.

Jon Swerens
Member

IOW, David Bayly’s criticism was steeped in humility, as such: And here’s an important thing to admit: those of us who think we might have handled the Sitler case better than Pastor Wilson and Christ Church think so only on the basis of prior experience–and, more particularly, prior failures very similar to those of Christ Church.

Jane Dunsworth
Guest
Jane Dunsworth

Thank you. I must have misunderstood something I read previously.

In that case, I believe he was wrong to think it was a good idea.

Jon Swerens
Member

So, July, you have on this thread myself and Jane, who have been quite willing to listen to the biblical case against this or anything else. What does a minister of the Gospel do in this situation instead of what Wilson did?

David Price
Guest
David Price

What if Katie had confessed to knowingly and willing aiding in the physical assaulting of several young children hidden behind a wall of flesh resulting in death (I’ll let you come up with your own word for that sort of thing) and Steven was your run-of-the-mill hot-blooded American man?

AMA
Guest
AMA

I see reinforcements have arrived from the Biddy Brigade.

Jon Swerens
Member

NOTE FOR NEWBIES TO THE BLOG: The issue was never whether or not Wilson et al condemned pedophilia. The issue is whether or not a *repentant and redeemed* pedophile may eventually ever get married at his own church. Wise? Not wise? Dunno. But lack of condemnation of pedophilia is not the issue.

herewegokids
Guest
herewegokids

The proper condemnation of pedophilia, which necessitates a proper understanding of it, would include encouraging or even requiring the repentant, redeemed pedophile to put himself in a situation where coming into regular contact w children would be highly unlikely. A monastery comes to mind, perhaps voluntary chemical castration…..honestly for the crimes committed, a life sentence was just and had Mr Wilson not interfered perhaps would have been enforced. Doug and Ed arranged this marriage so of course they supported it. Knowing children would eventually come along. The issue here is the hubris all too common among clergy who think they… Read more »

Jon Swerens
Member

“And don’t start with “but the judge and counselor” crap bc that lie has been exposed.”

I was unaware that anyone was calling this a lie and that it had been exposed as such. Is there an unbiased source for this accusation?

wackytobeme
Member

It seems there are some who are really hoping for Sitler to re-offend. Rather sad don’t you think.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

That would be truly horrible, and I hope that if I ever find such a wish in myself, I stamp it out ruthlessly.

July Church
Guest
July Church

I’ve never seen any indication that anyone on here hopes Sitler rapes another child, his own or not. On the other hand, making such a baseless accusation and not naming names or quoting anyone is a good way of changing the subject from performing the wedding of a man who sexually assaulted several small children by encouraging people to think that anyone who criticizes Doug is a horrible person who is actually hoping Sitler rapes another child.

July Church
Guest
July Church

Of course, I never suggested that “lack of condemnation of pedophilia” is the issue. Jon is simply trying to erect a straw man in order to obfuscate the issue at hand.

Doug has always and consistently condemned pedophilia. As far as I know, no one has ever suggested otherwise.

But condemning pedophilia isn’t enough. It does little good to condemn pedophilia if you then turn around and bless and perform the wedding of a man who has sexually assaulted several small children, enabling him to sire his own children.

Jon Swerens
Member

Actually, your comments certainly did suggest that, but I am glad for the clarification.

Now, since you do seem to understand what Wilson’s theological reasoning is for performing the wedding, in what way has he erred, using Scripture as your backboard? I absolutely believe that it’s possible to make a case, so I’d like to hear your rationale for what you’d say would have been the correct course of action.

July Church
Guest
July Church

As I said below, I agree with the Bayly brothers. I don’t need to come up with a separate and different Biblical argument. You’ve already said you read their argument, and think they have a point, so why are you demanding I post another, different argument, and defending Doug for his actions re the Sitler/Travis marriage?

Jon Swerens
Member

For example, I’m not sure the Baylys accused Wilson of hubris as you did. Tim’s trust in Wilson and the session at Christ Church has not been diminished because of this.

July Church
Guest
July Church

Neither of your points has anything to do with why you think I need to come up with a separate, different Biblical argument against pedophiles marrying.

Or were you just hassling me because I criticized Doug?

Jon Swerens
Member

No, not at all. I am not asking you for a separate argument.

Please note that you accused Pastor Wilson of “hubris,” whereas the Baylys’ critique did not attempt to read Wilson’s mind or his motive, except to assume his motives were honorable even if his actions in this case were absolutely wrong. So I’m just reading your words, wondering why you felt you had to accuse Wilson in that fashion.

July Church
Guest
July Church

The hubris I referred to was writing an article condemning various perversions of marriage after weeks of defending yourself for conducting and approving the marriage of a man who has sexually assaulted several small children.

Maybe you can’t see how bad that looks, but plenty of unbelievers can. I’m pretty sure the average person out there would think it’s ridiculous, rank hypocrisy to marry Steven Sitler to a young lady and then condemn gay marriage and polygamy as sick perversions.

Jon Swerens
Member

Not condemning perversions would be hypocritical at this point. I really don’t think going easy on any sexual perversions would help his standing in the court of public opinion.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

There is also such a thing as looking after one’s base; politicians do it and so do pastors. If Doug got up in the pulpit this Sunday and said, “I’ve been wrong about homosexuality all this time and Christ Church is now gay-affirming,” that would make me happy, but I suspect a significant chunk of his congregation would walk out. And since they’re the ones whose tithe checks keep the church open, those are the ones he has to look after.

Jon Swerens
Member

I am sure faithful pastors have to face down that ungodly fear a lot.

Jon Swerens
Member

Not that his standing in the court of public opinion really sways Wilson in any way, as fan and foe alike must recognize. :)

Jane
Member

I think what might be confusing Jon, and I know it’s confusing me, is how accusing someone of hubris and rank hypocrisy is not suggesting he’s not unfaithful to the Word and not fit to be a pastor? Those are extremely serious charges.

Matt
Guest
Matt

IMO this should be left. No more good can come of pressing the matter. The ball is in Wilson’s court to repent and reform, and no one here can make him.

herewegokids
Guest
herewegokids

But we can make it more uncomfortable for him until he does.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I agree. I think that the continued rehashing of these painful topics is hardening our own positions and, with them, our hearts. At this point I find myself more interested in proving that I am right than in praying for the victims here. This is not a case where someone is in imminent danger and the civil authorities need to be made aware of it. I think we are quite unnecessarily making people dig in their heels.

Jon Swerens
Member

And if he doesn’t? What’s your end game here?

Matt
Guest
Matt

End game?

Jon Swerens
Member

Ah, sorry, tried to direct that to someone else. All these nested comments GAH

Dan Salter
Member

I have a serious question. I have someone in close connection who claims to be gay who also claims to be a Christian. I have no reason to doubt either. This person believes God wants loyalty and faithfulness among married partners, mirroring the faithfulness in every aspect of a Christian’s life–and indeed in the very united image we see in the Trinity. Now, the slippery slope presented by Doug is no conundrum for this devoted Christian gay couple. They would say that just as a heterosexual chooses one person and is required by God to be devoted to that one… Read more »

AMA
Guest
AMA

First things first, Dan: One can no more consider themselves a “gay Christian” than they can consider themselves a “murderous Christian” or a “thieving Christian.” 1 John teaches us that if we truly love God we will keep his commandments. Included in God’s commandments are prohibitions against all manner of sexual immorality, including that of homosexual behavior. If your friend is truly regenerate, he will shudder at the thought of self-identifying with a sin for which Christ was crucified. That’s the tell-tale sign of a believer: the old man is put off and the new man is put on because… Read more »

Dan Salter
Member

No disrespect intended, but this was a rather not helpful response. For your first point, I would argue by submitting the similar declarations of…let’s say a person who believes that drinking a beer is a violation of God’s commands. That person may shout, “One can no more consider themselves a ‘drinking Christian’ than they [sic] can consider themselves a ‘murderous Christian’ or a ‘thieving Christian.'” Because you, by your interpretation, declare it so, doesn’t make it so. Now, I happen to agree with you regarding homosexuality. I believe it to be sin. But I believe it so after close examination… Read more »

Monte Harmon
Guest
Monte Harmon

If “God said it…” does not carry weight then no amount of reasoning or word-smithing will either. Seeking to understand God’s creational and redemptive purposes is wise and beneficial, but it is ultimately about authority. And only One has that authority.

Evan
Guest
Evan

Dang, you’re on a roll today! Up vote with all my heart soul mind and strength.

Christopher
Member

Your gay christian in particular may not go all the way down the slope but that wont stop amaerican culture or any other gay christian from hitting bottom.

bethyada
Member

Dan, there are issues of knowledge and issues of obedience. Knowledge can be very freeing when we have previously lacked it. But for many the issue is not knowledge. This often becomes clear when no matter how much they talk and study they are not getting anywhere.

With issues of sexuality (including homosexuality) it is usually an issue of obedience rather than knowledge. You want an argument but your friend (likely) does not wish to abandon their desire.

duellsquimby
Member

Tongue firmly in check here, but I started humming , ‘I gave it to agnes’ half way through.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Amen. America and Americanism are in high rebellion against both God and nature. Time for Christians to reject it entirely and start building healthy national identities and institutions instead.

drewnchick
Member

But for a smallish chunk of metropolis nestle right smack-dab in the middle, I’d say Texas is a GREAT place to start! One small flip of a switch and we’re off the power grid…how ya like us now?

RandMan
Guest
RandMan

Ashv, You talk and talk. GO DO IT! ISIS is seriouslymaking you look bad.

ashv
Guest
ashv

What makes you think I’m not?

Job
Guest
Job

The Christians in the Northwest have been doing this for thirty years.

Matt
Guest
Matt

>>“I was born this way.” “Gender is a social construct.” Well, which is it?

A person is born with a particular biology, which leads society to classify them into a “gender”, and based on that classification lay a set of social expectations on them. so which is it? Both.

LexRex
Guest
LexRex

Matt – in response to your post, please see the picture in the article from “O Brother.”

Matt
Guest
Matt

Just because you don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense. To help you out, it’s basically analogous to the “race is a social construct” argument, which doesn’t actually mean anti-racists don’t believe in skin tones.

LexRex
Guest
LexRex

To say that a person is born with a particular biology and that that somehow precedes gender seems nonsensical to me. Would you please explain what you mean by “born with a particular biology?” That seems to me to be the same as gender. In other words, all people born with a penis (biology) are boys (gender). Indeed, that’s how we determine the boys from the girls. I don’t know of any girls born with a penis (excluding some sort of hermaphrodite argument) or boys born with a vagina. Please tell me you’re not going down the “I’m a woman… Read more »

Mike
Guest
Mike

“When the center does not hold, we will all discover how many things the center was holding”

This is also what has happened with Marijuana in Washington State: first is was medical marijuana, now it is in candy. First sold as an act of compassion for the elderly, dying of cancer and now an ingredient in the currency of little kids. I know the blog is about sex, but sex is just another rock in the same avalanche.

bethyada
Member

I was having a conversation with a Christian friend in 1993 and commented that I thought paedophila would be considered generally acceptable in Western culture within 50 years. She was incredulous that that would ever happen. Seems I was not prescient enough.

accelerator
Guest
accelerator

“The sexual revolution is tied up in self-contradictory knots. They want to be the party of “anything goes,” but then notice how their tyrannical impulses crawl into everything. They want certain kinds of sexual counseling banned. In California, they want every encounter to be at least a threesome — the two aroused ones, and a lawyer, who is aroused by the paperwork. In the meantime, boys aren’t boys necessarily, but yes has to mean yes. Girls could be cis-girls, but there is no such thing as cis-yes, or a trans-yes either. And if a man goes through transgender surgery, can… Read more »

mikebull1
Member

Progressives love to talk about sustainability and sexuality, but not about sustainable sexuality.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Given that human overpopulation is one of the greatest threats facing the planet, I wouldn’t worry too much about that one.

mikebull1
Member

I think you might mean overcrowding, which is a different problem. Overpopulation doomsaying was popular in the 1970s, but most developed nations (including countries like Turkey and Iran) are now extremely worried about declining birthrates and ageing populations (these are Europe’s biggest economic problems). We are only now beginning to realise that the greatest resource in any culture is its people. Check out David P. Goldman’s “How Civilisations Die (And Why Islam Is Dying Too)” (2011).

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Places like Europe are seeing declining birthrates of white Europeans, but that is not the same as a declining birthrate of humans overall. And overall, the population of the world is more than double what it was when I was born, and that growth rate isn’t sustainable indefinitely. I’m not predicting doomsday because of overpopulation, but I don’t think a reduction in our numbers would be a bad thing. It’s not just everyone having a place to stand, it’s also things like waste disposal and clean water and the ability to feed everyone, preferably without poisoning the planet. And by… Read more »

mikebull1
Member

Sure, but this isn’t a mere reduction in numbers. This is the end of many cultures over the next 50-100 years because they failed to reproduce. I really recommend Goldman’s book for the big picture and lots of stats.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

It is estimated that 90 percent of human cultures since history began are no longer with us. I hate to break it to you, but some day yours will be one of them. Cultures are born, they flourish for a time and then they die. Ours is on the way out for reasons having nothing to do with gay marriage. And no, I don’t have to like it.

mikebull1
Member

Goldman gets to the heart of why civilisations die, showing that it is not inevitable, and in today’s world directly related to a loss of faith – so aberrations like gay marriage are symptoms, not causes, even though they do speed up the decline.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

I will admit to not having read Goldman’s book, but intuitively, that premise strikes me as wrong since almost all cultures at most times and places have been religious cultures, so you can’t really claim that lack or loss of faith was the problem. In fact, most of them died out because another culture with a better army defeated them on the battlefield and then either killed them off or assimilated them. That, or they just simply died out because of disease or because local conditions changed and they couldn’t adapt. And several of those cultures were Christian, so you… Read more »

mikebull1
Member

Goldman does cover the fact that different cultures spent most of their time simply trying to survive, with a huge percentage of lives lost on inter tribal warfare. But his observation about the effects of a loss of faith concerns the unique effect of modern secularism, causing a culture to wipe itself out through mere hopelessness and selfishness – you might say exercising its democratic right to extinction.
You and I don’t share worldviews (I think evolution is a fiction, and the Gospel is the power of God) so our conclusions will differ greatly.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

But facts are facts regardless of world view, and what causes civilizations to die out is a question of fact. If secular cultures do the same thing religious cultures have been doing all along — die out — can it really be said that secularism was the cause?

mikebull1
Member

Yes, facts are facts. But the creation/evolution is a prime example of how much we rely on worldview and presuppositions to identify causation. Are fossils due to millions of years of sex and death, or the Great Flood? Anyhow, secularism globally is the first time cultures have chosen not to reproduce, and to treat sex as a toy.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Except that the causation of those fossils is a question of fact, and presuppositions have nothing to do with it, and the evidence points to millions of years rather than a great flood. And this is not the first time cultures have chosen not to reproduce; the difference is that in the past they used abortion and infanticide rather than birth control.

mikebull1
Member

Sure there were *cases* of abortion and infanticide, just as there was a high infant mortality rate. That’s not what we are talking about. As for fossils, the very fact that there are preserved fossils at all is evidence of catastrophe – quick burial. The *fact* that evolutionists have invented fantasies such as punctuated equilibrium is evidence against the fossil record supporting their theory. And then there is the *fact* that a workable mechanism has yet to be “discovered.” The evidence only “supports” the theory with a lot of hand waving, assumptions, and special pleading. – oh, and artistic license.… Read more »

Job
Guest
Job

This isn’t really the case outside of Africa, but Africa probably is screwed if they do not constrain their growth.

Jon Swerens
Member

Unlike Europe, and Japan, and Russia, who have successfully constrained their growth and are now seeing how screwed they really are?

If the African nations continue in wisdom and continue to see their own people as a resource rather than a burden, they could lead the world by mid-century.

Job
Guest
Job

Russia has reached a stable growth rate thanks to that monster Putin and Europe/Japan are overcrowded anyway.

Africa has 1,000,000,000 people it can barely feed and is constantly on the edge of ethno-religious war. Adding another 3,000,000,000 will likely mean war, genocide, and mass migration. Add to that increasing Chinese economic domination and there is no way Africa will lead the world in anything except death rate.

Jon Swerens
Member

Well then, they’ll all move to Europe. Problem solved! (But I’m one of those wackos who is leery of any form of mass sterilization program.)

Job
Guest
Job

Yep, Europe would never kill a large number of people on ethnic grounds. ;)

Jane
Member

If you can barely feed people in that climate, it is not the number of people that is the problem. That’s a problem that CAN be solved by “growing wisdom” more effectively than by eliminating people.

Job
Guest
Job

If there is a way to turn Africans into Westerners and make their governments less incompetent, it would a huge boon. One of the pressing questions of the 21st century is whether Africa will improve fast enough to keep large numbers of people from dying. I do not count on it. Cultures take time to grow.

Rett Copple
Guest
Rett Copple

Glad you took this up. I was of the opinion that the SBC’s response to these militant secularists was extremely weak, politically calculating, and filled with equivocations. I don’t understand why it was necessary to say “LGBT folks don’t need reparative therapy, they need the gospel” when all parties involved know full well that to the protesters, reparative therapy is the gospel. Apparently the SBC did not view this as an attack on the church’s freedom to minister the gospel to homosexuals. After reading quotes from this event I was hoping you would take it up and I am glad… Read more »

nathantuggy
Member

“And if a man goes through transgender surgery, can he then declare himself a lesbian because he still likes girls?” Bit late here, but yes. They can and do, routinely.