Letters That Float Like Leaves Down the River

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Forgiveness

What is the biblical understanding of forgiveness? What does it mean to forgive someone? I need clarity in this regard because I’m finding it difficult to forgive someone who is constantly causing hurt and this slowly causing bitterness to develop in my heart. I know that bitterness is a root and path to various other sins. Could you please help me understand what it means biblically to forgive?
Sincerely,

Sam

Sam, forgiveness is a transaction, in which the offending party seeks the forgiveness and the other person extends it. It is a request for a promise not to hold the offense against the person, and forgiveness is that promise. This would be forgiveness proper. When the offending party doesn’t think he did anything wrong and/or keeps doing it, forgiveness proper, the kind that restores relationship, cannot be extended. The virtue to be practiced there would be patience, forbearance, long-suffering. When this is being practiced, you stay free of bitterness, and while their forgiveness present has not yet been given to them, it is wrapped, and waiting by the front door.

Two Book Recommendations

I’m just here looking for trustworthy book recommendations. My husband’s grandmother is declining health-wise but she still loves to read. She is a history buff and a loyal conservative-the type of Christian who believes “just because” it’s the proper thing to do. She doesn’t seem to have any intimate kind of relationship with the Lord. I’d love to get her some books that could help her to start thinking about eternal things. She seems almost fearful of Scripture, though I encourage her to read it. I’m sure there are a lot of recommendations out there about how to approach the topic of dying, but I want the good stuff. Thanks! :)

Laura

Laura, I would start her on Dominion, by Tom Holland, a history of the impact of Christianity. I believe that Holland was not a Christian, at least when he wrote it. On preparation for dying, I would recommend David Gibson’s Living Life Backward, a series of meditations from Ecclesiastes.

Seed and Seeds

‘ve recently been having some trouble understanding the term ‘seed’ in Genesis and Galatians. In Galatians 3:16 the Apostle Paul says that the promise made to Abraham “and to [his] seed” was specifically phrased in the singular because it was referring to Jesus (and presumably not to any other of Abraham’s natural descendants). On first glance, this seems to square with Genesis 3:15 where the ‘seed’ of the woman is referred to singularly as “He”. My confusion is about how the Westminster covenant theology idea of the seed of Abraham including all of his descendants (and their children specifically) which transfers to the New Testament ideas of paedobaptism and covenant families, squares with this idea of Jesus himself being the true seed of Abraham. As always, your insight would be invaluable. Thanks and God Bless!

Caleb

Caleb, the covenant aspect is what enables us to blend the singular and the plural together. The plural is contained within the singular. Christ is the seed, the one seed (Gal. 3:16). And because of this, just a few verses down, those who believe in Him are Abraham’s seed. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).

The Zach Garris Explainer

Thanks for posting the above referenced YouTube video in June 4 “Content Cluster Muster.” I learn more about the goings on of my denomination—PCA—by following your blog than from any other source.

Jerry

Jerry, thanks.

Dealing With Ingratitude

How does a father help course correct a fairly deep and persistent ingratitude he sees in his teenage sons related to the blessings he has from his family? Likewise, a growing ingratitude in his wife?

Anon

Anon, I would begin by example. I would make a list of everything you are grateful for, and make sure it is a long list. Every night at dinner, when you say grace over the food, include thanksgiving for one to three items on your list. Be specific. Model what you would like to see from them.

Debt Slavery

I have been subscribing for a long time, while I am in very deep debt to my credit cards, and other debt to the tune of $106,000 .
Question, what do I call myself now that my wife has discovered my debt?
Seriously I am looking for guidance.
Sincerely,

Spendthrift

Spendthrift, it sounds to me like you are the kind of person that Dave Ramsey has been an enormous help to. I would recommend becoming a Ramsey absolutist for a few years.

Foreknowledge and All That

I have been retracing my steps through TULIP and watching some debates on the U. I have been surprised by how many Arminian/Free will arguments seem to explain God’s “foreknowing” by appealing to metaphysical extrapolations about the nature of time and God’s relationship to it. Lewis used the argument about an author writing a book, who can leave his character in mid-sentence, walk away from the story for hours, and pick up writing the character when he pleases. No time has passed for the character, while hours or days might have passed for the author. I think the argument is interesting, and probably the best explanation that we have for God’s interaction with the created time continuum.
However, it is speculative; we don’t actually know. It is treated as a biblical fact when it is, in fact, a theological hypothesis based on a few verses, and it carries an unjustifiable amount of weight in the Arminian position. They seem to claim a dogmatic position about how time works and God’s interaction with it, as if it were a science as settled as gravity. But I don’t think the Bible warrants that kind of certainty. While I agree that God is “outside” of time, couching all the verses about God’s foreknowledge or election in terms of Him “looking down the corridors of time” to see who chooses Him seems to carry way more weight than they can biblically support. For a creature embedded in time, the certainty with which claims are made about how an uncreated Being, outside of time, interacts with time seems like, to use a previous word picture of yours, June bugs talking quantum physics. Except these June bugs are pretty sure they’ve worked out the kinks. Plus, this cheapens God’s election, claiming He chose when, in actuality, He simply saw someone else choosing and jumped in front of the parade. Am I off on this? Is the explanation they offer of how time works justified?
Thanks,

Tim

Tim, I think you are right to be suspicious about how easily a speculative view on the nature of time is just assumed. But I also get a kick out of this appeal in that it doesn’t solve the problem at all. The corridors of time that God looks down are not godless corridors. The world has sin in it, and people in it rejecting God, and God foreknew all this, or knows it eternally, doesn’t matter, and created this world anyhow. Every Christian who believes in creation from nothing is a Calvinist. Some of them admit that they are. Those who deny creation from nothing are actually not Christians.

Deep Optimism

I am particularly grateful for the forward-thinking, optimistic anticipations that our enemies may be going wobbly in some areas and that victory is a very real possibility. Many newly postmil people are willing to give intellectual assent to Christ’s victory over His enemies in principle, but the prospect of victory actually happening in real life seems to them as unrealistic, as if God were not allowed to intervene positively in human events for the sake of His people. Or, alternatively, some seem inclined to give Donald Trump the glory, forgetting who orchestrates world events.
Your article is a helpful reminder to all of us that it’s OK to expect good things from God and to expect even more as the gospel spreads.
On a related topic, I noticed that there were an unusual number of “oh, get real” negative comments on the YouTube version of this article. Many of these appeared to me as coming from bots or paid professional scoffers. Thank you for preaching a biblical gospel that scares both pagans and squishy evangelicals.

Jack

Jack, thanks very much. I like it that the bots don’t like it.

Starlight and YEC

I was raised a Young Earth Creationist, but then convinced by Old Earth arguments back in college, mostly due to the cosmic background radiation, which despite the best efforts of the priests of scientism, inexorably points to a moment of creation. (Unfortunately, that moment appears to be billions of years in the past . . .)
In recent years I’ve been genuinely relieved to be unconvinced of macroevolution through a simple mathematical argument: there’s simply not enough time for the number of genetic fixations required between a modern human and some purported “last common ancestor” of us and that chimp over there. Not enough time, by orders of magnitude, even with an old earth and given the most generous assumptions, including absurd fixation rates only seen in bacteria! So that puts me in a strange place: an OEC who can only assume there was a point in time when Jesus was walking around, singing fish and jackdaws and horses into existence. :)
So while I still find bemusing the questions of what age Adam appeared when God yoinked him into existence, and whether he had a belly button, the matter of ancient light remains vexing to my YEC roots. If, as you suggest, there exists basalt rock that was never inside a volcano, would you also posit photons, created in-flight on their way out to some far-off galaxy, that showed that same rock flung up out of a volcano? Or, since no human will ever receive those photons on his retina, what about photons reaching us now from objects 6,000+ light-years away, depicting other events that, I guess, never happened? It all feels weird and out of character for the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Then again, I’ve never seen His storehouses of snow, so what do I know? Still: “It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.” Thanks for your ministry, and especially for your grace and patience with all of us writing you these letters.

DE

DE, thanks. That is a possibility, and doesn’t give me any angst at all. But another possibility, and one I actually prefer, is that we err in assuming the speed of light as an absolute constant. I don’t think we know nearly enough about the cosmos to insist on that. The speed of anything is something that occurs in time . . . but is time a constant? When the stars that announced the birth of Christ to the shepherds thwapped back into place, how fast were they going?

Ploductivity

Not a question, just a report, and thank you. I recently led a few young men from our church through Ploductivity.
First, only a few ended up finishing, and the ones that did understood the irony of cramming the last few chapters in before our last meeting on Sunday. I guess the non-finishers will have to skip ahead to chapter 12 to get the joke.
Second, each young man really appreciated the central thesis of the book. We’re called by God to use the wealth he’s given us to bring Him glory.
But the big win was the optimism. The outlook on the future has changed. One young man said he no longer fears “impending societal collapse,” but understands that God is in control, which coincided with his finally “getting Calvinism.” What you wrote made sense, and it finally clicked for him.
And speaking of God being in control, how about the fact that you wrote that before the AI boom. It’s more relevant now than when I read it four years ago. Thanks again

Ryan

Ryan, thanks very much.

Massie and the Ugliness of Politics

“First, I do not deny that there was a great deal of ugly in the great big beautiful, so there’s that. But it was standard political log-rolling. Second, there is the practical consideration that Mike Johnson had which is to count how many votes would be lost if Massie’s fixes were accepted. In other words, was the choice between a pure bill that wouldn’t pass or one with ugly in it that would? More political logrolling. And third, whether or not Massie is a grandstander, he is certainly hanging out with some of them now.”
While I don’t deny that Massie probably strives for the pure too much over the politically possible, my complaint about the situation is that Trump constantly focuses his platform on those trying to stand on principle as opposed to the corrupt uniparty types that are forcing the slop in. We’ll probably never have a pure bill, but if Trump was highlighting Massie’s complaints, I think at least a good third of them might get addressed.

Ian

Ian, I think that is quite possible . . . but I really don’t know.
I’m helping my open minded pre-millennial mother along into consideration of post mil claims. However, I find that I’m having a hard time distinguishing between day of the Lord Temple destruction texts, and Jesus’ final return and final judgment at the resurrection texts. Could you lay out a small list of texts that you believe speak of the final judgment/resurrection?
Thanks again!!!

B

B, sure. I believe that Matthew 25:31ff is an end of the world passage. So also 1 Thess. 4:13ff.

Love and Lust

My husband and I are church shopping currently, largely due to his not liking anywhere we have tried. So we don’t have established church leadership to help us. But I’m having issues that need addressing, and wonder what your advice might be. My husband is not affectionate generally. If he is, it’s gropey and grabby and not respectful. I’ve told him for years that I need more wooing and to be treated with dignity, because it’s becoming very hard for me to be in the mood with this atmosphere. He doesn’t seem to get it, and doesn’t seem to know the difference between romantic love and lust. He did at one time have a porn addiction, and I do believe he has conquered that, but I just don’t think he understands the issue. I want to be interested and active, but I need tending and care. The older I get, the harder it becomes for me to flip the switch from no affection to moving to the bedroom, and I’m not sure how to handle it without bitterness. I also don’t want to be tempted to desire that affection elsewhere, and while that would be my sin entirely, I fear that it could have been helped. Intimacy is important and something I long for, but frankly, the older I get, the less patience I have with this nagging feeling of being used—only receiving physical touch and attention when he’s in the mood. What would you recommend?

SM

SM, this sounds like a real challenge. First, I would move finding a church community to the top of your prayer list, because it sounds to me like you will need outside help. Second, budget for the possibility that some bitterness has already crept in, making some of his advances obnoxious when they wouldn’t have been in a healthy relationship. I would recommend this book, and would encourage you to read and reread it, as needed. Third, you might take the initiative in suggesting certain buffers, but with sex guaranteed at the end of it. For example, ask him if it would be all right with him if you scheduled a couple of date nights a month, nice restaurant and all, after which he will get lucky. He would have to be out of his mind to say no.

Interpolated Answers

Given the nature of this letter, I am going to intersperse my answers, which will be highlighted in bold. Like this.
Thank you for your response and patience. I surely could have been more concise. I’ve done my best this time to do.
Could you please tell me which of these conclusions and implications you disagree with, and why? It would really help me if you would be precise.
Conclusions:
A/ Women are equal to men in essence but inferior in accidents (physical and mental). (This is what Paul meant when he said women are the weaker vessel.)
Disagree. I have trouble with the metaphysical breakdown of anything into essence and accidents. In addition, we are dealing with populations that have Bell curve generalities, and that means that some women are taller than some men, etc.
B/ The man’s primary duty in life is his “garden”; the woman’s, her man. Change duty to calling, and I would agree. But part of that calling is to nourish and cherish her, such that she can fulfill her calling.
C/ The woman’s inferiority and telos is God’s good design, not a result of the Fall. I would prefer to say the woman’s “subordination and telos,” not inferiority. Some women are superior to some men, but they must still submit to their husbands.
D/ Rejecting one or more of these makes one a feminist. No. There are certainly feminist reasons for rejecting one or more of these, but there are other reasons also. I reject the first because I am not an Aristotelian, for example.
Some Implications:
of A—
1/ even in her unfallen state, like a child, she requires supervision to not harm herself and others. No, a submissive woman is not an infantile woman.
2/ women must imbibe that fact and submit to a man at all times (father, husband, or pastor); women were designed to live under the protective authority of a man, not operate outside it; She must ordinarily be submissive to a man, but not always. Life is messier than this.
3/ if she’s married, she must acknowledge her husband as her superior, call and regard him as “lord”, and be lowly and quiet like Sarah; a happy wife is a submissive wife; This is true enough.
4/ she must obey her male authority in everything except that which is sin (even the appearance of sin; also sin is what God calls sin, not how she defines it; more on this below). Yes. Obedience is included in the bride’s vows for a reason.
5/ women shouldn’t be in positions of authority over men in any sphere of life (family, church, state). False. Deborah was a judge in Israel, and Lydia was the head of her household. Women may never rule in the church, may occasionally have authority in the state, as providence would have it, and are sometimes heads of households.
of B—
1/ a big portion of fulfilling her telos is, in turn, keeping her husband happy, doing household chores, childbearing, and raising her children in the Lord. Yes. This is the usual pattern.
2/ men must take lead in everything and then delegate to his wife what he wants her to handle. I would prefer to say take responsibility in everything and then delegate, but sure.
of C—
As you said somewhere, men are made bigger and stronger so they could lift heavy things (they don’t lift heavy things because they are bigger and stronger); similarly household chores are delegated to women and children because they are easy. Not easy at all. Many of the things my wife does in the management of our home are utterly beyond my capacity. I could no more fly to the moon than do something of the things she does, readily and naturally.
Regarding unactualized potencies, you say some men are maxed out. I think not. If you’ve maxed out, you’re without sin or at least not guilty of it. But which of us isn’t going to be in some measure guilty of the sin of the wicked servant who buried his one talent. Also maxing out gets harder as you age. Here’s a thought experiment. A well-raised white woman in some remote African village will be smarter than the men. Yet she lacks the talents required to pastor a church or, if she were to marry someone in that village, lead her husband or that village. The men would do well to take her counsel, assuming they have no access to intelligent men, but only the men of that village must lead and rule. She’s smarter than them all yet lacks what it takes to do what even a less-than-average man can, because she lacks the very potencies that are poorly actualised in those men. I agree she must not pastor the church. And if she were to marry one of the men, that man would be the head of the home. Sure. But if she is a trained geologist, can she tell them where to drill the well?
Note that I have listed only the implications that feminists rage against. Directives such as husbands should not exasperate their wives or lord it over them, are not usually contended. Not contended, but still not practiced the way it should be.
More on A4: I believe that wives are to submit to their husbands in everything as if he were Jesus Christ himself. There is no wiggle room except when his command causes her to sin. If a wife does not submit in all things to her husband she is in active rebellion against Jesus Christ. Yes. A wife is to submit to her husband in all things, apart from sin. But there are times when an Abigail must save her blockhead husband.
As Garris said, “If a person cannot affirm that a wife is to obey her husband in all things, then that person is unfit to provide definitions of abuse, including “spiritual abuse. For the feminist considers all exercise of male authority to be abusive.” Agree.
To my question, if a husband asked his wife to stop working outside the home and be a full-time housewife, for example, must she obey? Yes.
Two, do you concur with Edgington’s conclusions in White Knights and Reviling Wives? If no, why? I haven’t finished reading it. I agree with it as far as I have gotten. So I have to reserve judgment.
Pastor Wilson, again, could you please be specific with your responses; it would really help. Thanks again. Okay.

Judah

Judah, there you go.
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Ken B
Ken B
20 days ago

Well I believe in creation from nothing and I am very definitely not a Calvinist!

I also believe ‘those whom God foreknew’ simply means believers, and believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, such predestination is not unbeliever to believer. Similarly it is believers who are predestined to have the redemption of the body, to be adopted as sons.

This makes all the arguments about looking down the corridors of time redundant, and leaves open any idea of freewill being involved or not.

I commend it to the House.

David Anderson
19 days ago
Reply to  Ken B

Ken, in the verses you allude to, Romans 8:28-30, the scope of the predestination involved explicitly includes a whole sweep from being called (and hence from whatever people are before being called), and then justified (so, before they’re not justified). How then can you say that it only applies to those who are already believers? > “I also believe ‘those whom God foreknew’ simply means believers” Are you saying that these are simply *synonyms* ? i.e. That using the expression “those whom God foreknew” supplies no information at all about believers other than they believe? Why then did the Holy… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
18 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

“ (so, before they’re not justified)” What does “before” mean, in the context of God’s perspective? I’m not trying to be pedantic or cute, its just agreeing or disagreeing about the nature of time is a fundamental component of grappling with Calvinistic predestination. Most Calvinists believe God exists outside of time entirely, completely unbound by the requirement of causes needing to preceed their effects….. and THEN claim that in order got Scripture’s claims of God’s foreknowledge to be true, he must therefore have done certain things before other things. He’s a very temporal atemporal God it would seem. I’m not trying… Read more »

David Anderson
18 days ago
Reply to  Justin Parris

> “I’m not trying to apply this to you per se, but it seems an inevitable speed bump. ”

I deny that it presents any kind of hindrance to the observation. The observation is that the predestination in mind in the verses discussed takes in a sweep of consequence that transitions someone from a state of being not justified and not called, into such a state (indeed, into being glorified). That observation stands, regardless of how anyone in particular conceives of in what manner there can or can’t be temporal or logical sequence in the decree.

David Anderson
18 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

To be clearer: the initial object of the act of divine predestination is considered as someone by Paul (writing under divine inspiration) who is not yet called.

A question I find interesting in many areas is to ask, “what theology would lead someone to write these verses?” I know what kind of writings are written by those who disbelieve in the eternal predestination of some sinners to salvation in Christ; I’ve never read a single one who uses anything like the language of Paul. Have you?

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
18 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

“I deny that it presents any kind of hindrance to the observation.” I didn’t claim that it did. I asked you a question about precisely what it was that you meant by a term, leaving room for the possibility that you had an answer that resolves the issues most Calvinists run into on the subject. Your refusal to answer basic questions about what it is you’re even saying is noted. What you mean when you even say “predestination” is effected by the answer to this question. If God is atemporal, then how does He predestinate anything at all, since He… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
18 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Hi David, as I see it Paul shows being known by God entails being a believer in Galatians where he says ‘now you have come to know God, or rather be known by God’. And of course the fake prophets and deliverance and healing ministries are those Jesus ‘never knew’. Rom 8 is about assurance rather than ‘how to get saved’. Despite suffering God will get you there in the end, and that end is to be like Christ. This is what God has earmarked for believers. This also involves calling – and the human response – and justification in… Read more »

Caleb
Caleb
20 days ago

Sam, on forgiveness, I would echo Doug’s words, but define it slightly differently. I think there are two parts of forgiveness. The one is your responsibility – to release the anger and desire the restoration of the relationship. This is required (Mt.6:14-15); Jesus himself did this (Luke 23:34). But we’re also to forgive as God in Christ forgives us (Eph.4:32). And God only forgives those who repent and ask for forgiveness. So I believe the Bible speaks of forgiveness in two closely related but distinct ways. The first we are required to work at (and thank God, there’s forgiveness for… Read more »

Caleb
Caleb
20 days ago

On “seed” and seeds”, God created us as a united humanity (a foreign concept in a hyper-individualized world). We are all individually created in God’s image (Gen.9:6), but it is especially as a united humanity that we are most fully God’s image. There is a plurality in the Triune God and a love in God that a single human can’t image without being united to others. Herman Bavinck said it this way: “Adam [wasn’t] yet the fully unfolded image of God. [Because] the image of God is much too rich for it to be fully realized in a single human… Read more »

E
E
20 days ago
Reply to  Caleb

Thanks for the children shout out! Definitely makes me happy:)

john k
john k
19 days ago
Reply to  Caleb

Bavinck doesn’t really assert here that “a single human can’t image [God’s plurality and love] without being united to others.” It’s not a question of union with others, but of the depth and riches of God being “somewhat unfolded” in multitudes under Christ.

Neither Genesis nor any other Scripture teaches that the image of God in man was (or is) in process of being fully realized through humanity’s communal character.

The chief thing in being the image of God is to be like him in righteousness and holiness (Eph. 4:24).

Yorba
Yorba
20 days ago

Yowza, from someone who practices what I thought was a pretty politically incorrect complementarianism, Judah’s wife seems to be having a rough go of it.

Kristina
Kristina
20 days ago
Reply to  Yorba

You think he’s married?

Yorba
Yorba
20 days ago
Reply to  Kristina

Fair point. The specificity of some of the “conclusions” made it sound like a person describing their own experience, at least to me.

John Middleton
John Middleton
20 days ago
Reply to  Yorba

I don’t know. He kind of sounds to me like someone who has no real life experience.

Kristina
Kristina
19 days ago
Reply to  John Middleton

That’s the impression I got too.

E
E
20 days ago
Reply to  Yorba

I sure hope he’s not married…seems like he has an extremely low view of women…

Koinonia
Koinonia
16 days ago
Reply to  E

And Pastor Wilson appeared to agree on more than he disagreed, only chipping away at the harsh edges.

Koinonia
Koinonia
16 days ago
Reply to  Yorba

My breakdown: Judah believes women are both physically and mentally weaker than men. Pastor Wilson agrees, but wants to leave room for the occasional exception My take: Why is “mentally weaker” included here at all? Men have higher rates of suicide, higher rates of almost every crime, higher rates of intellectual disability, higher rates of juvenile delinquency, lower rates of high school and college graduation. There is some evidence that women perform better than men at ultramarathons and beyond when given the opportunity, in part due to the increased importance of the mental aspect. Perhaps some/all of those are due… Read more »

Last edited 16 days ago by Koinonia
Priscilla
Priscilla
20 days ago

Judah,

It would benefit you to come humbly before the Lord and do a deep dive into what it means to “nourish and cherish” your wife, learning how to be “fellow heirs of the grace of life.” It is just as much a sin to fail to live with your wife in an understanding way, to the extent that your very prayers are threatened to be hindered.

Andrew
Andrew
20 days ago

Another possibility concerning starlight, since we’re beginning to flex some anemic muscles against monolithic Science (TM), is that the stars aren’t nearly as far away as we think. Oh yes…the astrophysicists are convinced (and convincing, what with their lofty terminology) that billions and billions of years ago everything exploded and has been racing along at Mach Billion, ever expanding into infinity, creating supernovas, black holes, and time warps along the way, not to mention galaxies, inconceivably humongous stars, and planets populated with alien races…because why not? BUT…we have grown comfortable enough with poking holes in evolutionary biology and geology that… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
20 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Andrew, just a couple easily typoed comments before I head for lunch. Time crunch before, God-willing, a later expanded post with more interaction explaining/promoting mature creationism. First, directly to your comment, Andrew. Think about the implications of Adam’s first night when he looked at the night sky.. Unless we reject Genesis as historical (and in doing so, scorn Jesus and Paul and Peter all believing Gen 1-3 as historical and teaching as if they are), he would see stuff that God created only a two days earlier. That means anything past 2 light days away presents something worth pondering. Eg,… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
19 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

I hope your comments are widely read Roy. They are wise and necessary. NECs must not be let off the hook. They posit a (created) physical universe that deceives our perception, observation snd analysis us at every turn. Nothing could be more irrational snd ungodly.

Andrew
Andrew
19 days ago

Respectfully, the evolutionists are deceived and have spent the past 150 years deceiving us all. The truth is written on men’s hearts, but once man has denied God, he must of necessity deceived himself. And that is a powerful trap that only the grace of God can break.
Christian scientists have made great strides in demonstrating God’s Creation (even a young-earth Creation) in the fields of biology and geology. They have also capably shown that life begins at conception, again running counter to Science (TM). It’s high time they tackle the field of astronomy, IMO.

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
19 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

You can say all this Andrew without having to provide evidence that can be scrutinised born again Christian believing scientists in Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, Harvard and elsewhere, who will respectfully disagree with you. What’s your take on Neanderthals, by the way? Peoples today on the European, Russian and Asian landmass have 1-2% Neanderthal DNA which can only be explained by interbreeding. How would you explain that?

Andrew
Andrew
19 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

I do understand this position. Honestly, I do. My “first principle” is that all of Creation is literally only about 6k years old, which is based upon Scripture and its timelines. Therefore, either Scripture is wrong–anathema!–or Science (TM) is wrong. It’s obvious where I begin. I also believe it is improper, for a Christian, to take what Science (TM) has said and mold Scripture to that framework. Rather, Scripture sit on top of everything, including actual science, and must mold our thinking about the things we observe. That would be my second principle. So…within *that* frame, what are we to… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
19 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Andrew, re your “stars aren’t really that huge or distant” theory. First: Would you propose the same solution to Eve’s appropriate age? After all, she was mere minutes old when Adam first saw her. She couldn’t actually have all the features of a fully grown woman…. Maybe we shouldn’t trust those Darwinian medical doctors as being able to see her rightly…. Note well: those features did not reduce to “apparent”, thus somehow deceptive. Instead, they exactly fit her, totally appropriate for her. Second: Given the created principles that would govern the creation–maybe think of these as the built-in physics–huge, distant… Read more »

Koinonia
Koinonia
18 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Where in Scripture does it state that the genealogies were dictated by God and are an exact representation of every generation on Earth? We already are okay with the Matthew/Luke genealogies not matching, and make up ways to reconcile them that aren’t actually given by Scripture. We also are okay with contradictions between the genealogies in Ezra and Nehemiah, and contradictions in the genealogies in Genesis and Chronicles. There are numerous HUMAN societies that existed more than 6,000 years ago, before we even get to the millions of years of natural history that existed before God created mankind. Jericho itself… Read more »

E
E
19 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

Where in the Bible does it say that god created everything 6000 years ago? Science has come a long ways since Newton, and what about Christian scientists who do understand the relationship between god and people? Are there none?

Ken B
Ken B
19 days ago
Reply to  E

The age of the earth is arrived at by taking the genealogies in the bible, and where possible the ages of those included and working back to Adam being created some 6000 years ago.

As under the young earth view the heavens and the earth were created 5 literal days prior to Adam, the earth is roughly 6000 years old.

This may be reasonable as a way of approximately dating how long man has been on earth, but there are arguments to be made from scripture that the earth is older than this.

Koinonia
Koinonia
19 days ago
Reply to  Ken B

Where in Scripture does it state that the genealogies were dictated by God and are an exact representation of every generation on Earth? We already are okay with the Matthew/Luke genealogies not matching, and make up ways to reconcile them that aren’t actually given by Scripture. We also are okay with contradictions between the genealogies in Ezra and Nehemiah, and contradictions in the genealogies in Genesis and Chronicles. There are numerous HUMAN societies that existed more than 6,000 years ago, before we even get to the millions of years of natural history that existed before God created mankind. Jericho itself… Read more »

Ken B
Ken B
17 days ago
Reply to  Koinonia

I think the genealogies rule out millions of years, but otherwise as a means of dating the age of the earth I am inclined to agree with you. There could well be gaps in them.

I also think there are indications in the text that the earth is considerably older than the YEC view.

The beauty of accepting that the bible does not date the age of the earth or universe is that you can leave the scientists to fight it out whilst enjoying fellowship will all other believers regardless of their views on this topic!

Koinonia
Koinonia
15 days ago
Reply to  Ken B

I absolutely agree that fighting over the age of the Earth is not a Biblical topic. Unfortunately, influential people like Pastor Doug Wilson have claimed that YEC is a critical interpretation and that those who deny it are in serious theological error and should be doubted in other things.

Reepicheep
Reepicheep
20 days ago

Objectively, the proposition of an all-powerful God creating the universe and its laws ought to be viewed as a project with requirements, not as a “how it had to happen based on our understanding of the universe’s laws”, if only because it’s reasonable to assume that God would have created the laws to support the project. With that in mind, here is one of God’s project requirements for the universe: – Stars would be visible to humans. (Gen. 1:14-18) – Stars would be impossible for humans to search out. (Jer. 31:37) The paradoxical nature of starlight is thus a feature,… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
20 days ago
Reply to  Reepicheep

Reepicheep, your ref to IJn1:5 errs. John does not intend us to think of God as photons, as plant food. John insists vv1-4 Christianity does not reduce to a moral construct, but relies upon tangible realities. He’d seen and touched Jesus. The Gospel is objective rather than merely experiential. vv5-7 That Gospel brings a relationship/connection with the holy God. He has real, actual demands, an absolute morality that reaches through the mental to the physical. This Faith is not lawless. Rather than moral relativism, there is light and dark. The Gospel makes one both able to know which is which… Read more »

Reepicheep
Reepicheep
20 days ago

On the paradox of free will and foreknowledge, let’s consider multiverse theory: the idea that every moment, every possible decision point generates a new universe in parallel to ours. That can make for some interesting TV shows. :) Critically, however, every one of those infinite universes necessarily resolves to heat death, or maximum uniformity. In short, the multiverse can’t get around entropy, and the proposition of an infinity of identical universes at heat death violates Occam’s Razor. Why does this matter to free will? Because every choice we can make -also- has exactly the same ultimate outcome: heat death. Free… Read more »

Justin Parris
Justin Parris
18 days ago
Reply to  Reepicheep

There’s……. quite a lot of problem in this post. I won’t begin to grapple with the false premise you snuck into the multiverse theory, that is, you presuppose that all universes utilize the same laws of physics. The largest problem is that you use a straw man version of free will. Free will does not require a unique sequence of events to result from the choice. It only requires that the choice be made ultimately by the individual person, who has an ability to resist some amount of influence. It frankly doesn’t matter if your choice doesn’t save the universe… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
20 days ago

I believe any would be Christian account of creation that denies incontrovertible evidence for the age of the earth is not even worthy of being called a theological heresy (it is that bad!). YECs are constantly banging their heads against a hard rock of solid facts–such as the fact that in Europe, Russia and Asia, Homo Sapiens Sapiens (that’s us) once interbred with Neanderthals which has left its mark in our DNA. Likewise the DNA evidence that the earliest human beings began life in Africa is likewise incontrovertible. YECs are dangerously out of touch with reality if they posit that… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
20 days ago

How old was Eve when Adam met her? Actually millions of times *older* than she *was*. Asterisks added to highlight the ambiguity built into those terms. ( cf last Tuesday, 2 June comments). Your comments just above, Brendan, amount to assertion without any interaction at all much less thoughtful interaction. In the 2Jun comments I totally agreed that the majority of YEC views posit absolutely bad science defying all the created evidence and making them (and the creationist view in general) foolish. But I also suggested an internally consistent alternative, mature creationism, a YEC (ie, 6×24 under 10K years ago).… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
19 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

DE (from the letters section above): What do you mean by “never happened”? What assumptions do you have in mind such that your phrase has no ambiguity? After (pun partly intended) all, did it “never happen” that Eve was a child before Adam saw her, a baby before Adam met a babe? (Remember, she *was* millions of times older than her short time between when God created her and Adam first saw her.) What assumptions does your “basalt rock never inside a volcano” rely upon? Same questions for your CMB radiation observation? For what reasons ought we not think God… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
19 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

Roy, having read your excellent thread in why we can’t dispense with ‘C’ in Einstein’s equation I am hugely disappointed in your above response to my input. I fear I have misunderstood where you’re coming from. You are a biblical literalist. You believe that God created a fully grown man called Adam and took flesh from his side and created a woman called Eve to whom he introduced her. Presumably yiu imagine they were in their twenties or thirties— and somehow managed to just carry on as normal human beings without any past memories or without having gained any speech… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
19 days ago

Brendan, I did not write that I understood your responses as lacking thought. On the contrary, I think of them as reflecting effort to write cogently, probably involving some editorial effort before hitting “post”. However, I did write that I understood your responses as lacking thoughtful interaction. For instance: Your post above reduces to “I, Brendan, do not believe Gen 1-3 should/can be understood as actual, factual history.” Fair enough as an assertion, although you provide no exegetical support for it. More to the point, that assertion (and the entire post) has zero interaction with my observation that such a… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
19 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

Now you’re doing the very same thing Roy! I have interacted with all the points you made–more fully in my second post–where I unambiguously and emphatically declare that I believe Genesis 1-3 is factual history, but not articulated in terms of cosmic or the natural sciences. I made plain that I suggest this on the grounds of literary genre but also on the grounds that scientific empiricism cannot plumb either the depths of cosmic, natural or human history where this pertains to the disclosure of divine revelation or spiritual truth. What can science or any form of human based knowledge… Read more »

E
E
18 days ago

Agreed…God can still be God without a literal 7 day or young earth…is God not bigger, more mysterious than you give Her credit for?!?

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
18 days ago
Reply to  E

Yes they are

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
18 days ago

re your “Now you’re doing the same thing…” post (which hereinafter will have the label PostP for penultimate and your post immediately preceding PostA for antipenultimate) I’m very much inclined to not take the bait. But, one more attempt to get past ambiguity. (One more attempt means replies that make no attempt at clarity a below average 4th grader could understand will get no more from me.) I’d already noted that PostA reduces to “I, Brendan, do not believe Gen 1-3 should/can be understood as actual, factual history.” I now note that your PostP reduces to…wait for it…the same assertion.… Read more »

E
E
18 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

Why are there two different creation stories in genesis?

Brendan Devitt
Brendan Devitt
17 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

I’ll forgive you, Roy, your mocking condescending tone–and forgive you for dealing with my points by introducing an imaginary 4th grader to make me look stupid. But actually, I’m really offended–not when I take in the breathtaking substance of your reply. You bring me into the Garden of Eden and show me what would have been picked up had you something like a camcorder and microphone (though I notice you never mentioned the Lord’s legs–you’re not going to deny that–he walked in the garden in the cool of the day as the text of Genesis 2 says. By the way,… Read more »

E
E
17 days ago
Reply to  Brendan Devitt

I appreciate this…we should be able to ask and grapple with questions, and there are more! If we came from two people, how does incest play into it? Are we ok with that? Or the fact that the OT has numerous examples of men with many wives or concubines, but now it’s gods design for a man and woman only to be “married” for life? Culture, context, language all matter, and you make some excellent points!

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
17 days ago
Reply to  E

Thank you so much for your generous response, Roy. Iron sharpens iron, and I can tell from your response to other people’s posts too that you are a godly, humble man. I have more questions than answers. I’m learning from the rabbinic writings that the Jews had four levels of interpretation of any text to deal with all the layers and dimensions that a narrative throws up. And the wonderful thing is they saw all the different layers and dimensions of a text as being true even where they apparently conflicted and contradicted each other! The fourfold Christian approach in… Read more »

Roy Kerns
Roy Kerns
16 days ago
Reply to  Brendan Devitt

B: I’ll forgive you, Roy, your mocking condescending tone–and forgive you for dealing with my points by introducing an imaginary 4th grader to make me look stupid. R: That 4th grader was/is me, not you. I was/am asking you to do the hard work of making what you think/write so simple that I can understand it. In other words, kudos to your courtesy and skill and patience with me, the simpleton. (OBTW…oh, by the way…I’ve found that making one’s ideas that simple really helps. It enables examination and clarification of one’s own ideas. It advances discussions. And it is nearly… Read more »

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
16 days ago
Reply to  Roy Kerns

A loft of stuff here, Roy. I’ll try to encapsulate your points in a brief focused response. You completely misread what I was saying about “metaphors” in Genesis! Read again! I posit that Genesis 1-3 is a metaphorical account of a real space-time event. There is no other way of describing it other than metaphorically. Whilst “scientific” knowledge as we understand it in the 21st century was not available to the author of Genesis, he was given the spiritual wisdom to write an account of creation that engages wit the pagan myths of creation, and in doing so to demonstrate… Read more »

John Middleton
John Middleton
19 days ago

For those who stand fast on YEC, I think your best option is to altogether ignore the evidence claims of sciences like geology and astronomy, as if they don’t exist. If you’re dead certain Genesis tells you the earth is only six thousand or so years old and can only be interpreted that way, and any other interpretation is denying essential truth, okay, just stick to reading what you believe scripture tells you and go with that. You don’t need science. Don’t try to reconcile science with scripture, it just doesn’t work with a YEC model. For one thing, the… Read more »

The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
The Commenter Formerly Known As fp
19 days ago
Reply to  John Middleton

Yup. Science is infallable. Never makes mistakes. All its assumptions are correct, never to be questioned. When it makes evidence claims about that which is not observable, testable, or repeatable, we can totally trust it. Hey, remember when Science was all about Geocentrism? Phrenology? Global Cooling? Yeah, me neither. Scripture? Bah! When it says there was evening and morning, the nth day, we can totally take that to mean millions of years! Billions even! It’s not like words mean things. A bazillion here, a gazillion there, and soon you’re talking real time. Señor Middleton, you describe Science like it’s a… Read more »

John Middleton
John Middleton
19 days ago

I can’t have misrepresented the position of a young earth creationist, since I haven’t attempted to represent that position at all. I have pointed out the position young earth creationists are in, which is a different matter. I don’t think you’ve quite grasped my point. If your mocking strawman in the first paragraph is more than sarcasm, and really reflects a contempt for science, everything I said should be helpful to you; it gives you a liberating option. If mainstream geology is bunk in the first place, why try to accommodate what it claims to observe by trying to show… Read more »

JS
JS
19 days ago

Okay. But also… exegetes are infallible. Never make mistakes. All their assumptions are correct, never to be questioned, etc…

It’s a straw man to pit science vs. Scripture. By all means, let’s say the Scriptures are inerrant. But science vs. exegesis is not the same thing.

Koinonia
Koinonia
18 days ago
Reply to  JS

Yup. And absolutely nowhere in Scripture does it state, “God declares the cosmos to be only 6,000 years old.” It’s an interpretation based on faulty assumptions.

Brendan of Ireland
Brendan of Ireland
18 days ago
Reply to  John Middleton

Brilliant John

Michael
Michael
19 days ago

For DE and his hangup with starlight, I would suggest a bit closer reading of Genesis. God created LIGHT on the first day. He did not create the stars until the FOURTH day. What was the source of that light in the meantime? I would suggest also reading Revelation 21 in conjunction with a closer reading of Genesis. It suggests that in the new heavens and earth, there will be no need for the sun or the moon, because the Lord himself will be the source of light. I’m not suggesting an explanation for the way we observe light. I’m… Read more »

Last edited 19 days ago by Michael
David Anderson
19 days ago

Interesting that in reply to Caleb’s letter, nothing is said that selects for the covenant membership of the infants of (at least one) Christian parent – the answer is perfectly consistent with a wide range of views. Hence the ‘answer’ doesn’t even address the particular question posed. Caleb deliberately highlighted his point by clarifying “and their children specifically” – but with no success. I was hoping that an attempt would be made, because it was a good question from the point of view of revealing key distinctions (whether designed to be so or not) in Reformed paedobaptism as distinct from… Read more »

David Anderson
19 days ago

> “but the prospect of victory actually happening in real life seems to them as unrealistic, as if God were not allowed to intervene positively in human events for the sake of His people” Note that such statements reveal your understanding of “victory”. That’s fine, of course – not criticising anyone for that. We say stuff that reveal our understanding, good. The real exegetical work which CREC-circle-type postmillenialists need to do, and which I’ve never seen done (glad to be corrected) is to demonstrate that this definition of victory is also that defined and explained by Christ and the apostles… Read more »

David Anderson
19 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Or, let’s make this very simple. Consider the amillennial alternative, which you disagree with. In the amillennial conception of Christ’s victory, he has a people who by their faith in him and union with him remain faithful despite the sufferings and tribulations that they endure, and those people very extensive in number and are found across the globe and human history, demonstrating the sufficiency and power of Christ in all times and places, so that it is plainly demonstrated to all the heavenly beings, and all the church, that his cross and resurrection overturn all that is in their way.… Read more »

Andrew Lohr
Andrew Lohr
19 days ago
Reply to  David Anderson

Essence of victory was won by the Lord Jesus Christ on earth.
C. S. Lewis: “…trust the purport of the images every time” over abstractions. Images are postmil; there may be fish all thru the sea, but God’s glory be known as the water, not just as the fish.

David Anderson
18 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Lohr

This commits a verbal equivocation over “essence”. In the argument I was making, I was discussing what is the sina qua non of what it would mean for the gospel to be victorious, and whether that must include eventual (but apparently not final, given the final apostasy) outward political dominance before Christ’s return. The essence of the *definition* of victory, not the essence of the *means by which it was acquired*. Who is the arbiter, in your view, of the “purport of the images”? In Protestant doctrine, Scripture is interpreted by Scripture, not by pleasant dictums even from those who… Read more »

Chris8647
Chris8647
19 days ago

They are dabbing on you, Doug.

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E
E
18 days ago
Reply to  Chris8647

I think he likes it…

Chris8647
Chris8647
16 days ago
Reply to  E

LOVES it.

Jake
Jake
18 days ago

What we need is more biblical education on how forg9veness works when the cops are legitimately involved. If you are a victim of a felony that is being prosecuted, how does that look different than something that is usually handled through a lawsuit?