On Dodging the Flaming Hailstones

Introduction

So I think it would be fair to say that I have been pounding away at Trump for lo these many months. Now that the primary season is over, and each major party is now stuck with its nominee, people are starting to coalesce (or not) behind somebody. I mentioned yesterday that Wayne Grudem argued for a Trump vote, Thabiti Anyabwile explained why he was going to vote for Hillary, and David Bahnsen was in the “none of the above” corner. My topic for yesterday was Thabiti’s surprising argument concerning Hillary.Calvin Wicked Rulers

A Challenge Cometh

But to demonstrate how inflamed things have gotten after 8 years of Obama’s racial healing road show, here is one response I got on Twitter.

@douglaswils just shows his true feelings for people of a different ethnicity! How come he didn’t go after Grudem? #Privilege

Right. A respectful disagreement with a man I respect reveals my “true feelings” for someone of a different ethnicity. How does such hyper-sensitivity know that I wasn’t simply going alphabetically, with the G of Grudem coming after the A of Anyabwile? Or maybe my #Privilege is being flaunted in this—I am still operating under the old tenets of a now discredited logocentric culture, the one in which writers expected their readers to know how to read.

My post didn’t actually have anything whatever to do with the alphabet, or with skin color, or with trying to offend racial-hypochondriacs, but still I am happy to interact with what I believe to be the central flaw in Grudem’s approach. And I would also point again to a piece taking on Grudem’s argument.

Two Kinds of Trump Votes

But let me set the stage. There is one kind of Trump vote that I disagree with, but which I do understand. It was the kind of support that Ben Shapiro was referring to . . .

“Just say he’s a crap tornado but you back him over Hillary. Better than this sillytowns.”

In his article, David Bahnsen acknowledged the same kind of category.

 “For those of you who were not early enablers of Trump, and those who did not join his movement in a shameless capitulation to his lead in the polls in February, and those who do not feel the need to defend his craziness now, but those who simply say, ‘Hillary with the Supreme Court is more than I can bear; I have to pull the lever for Trump,’ I think there is a fair and reasonable position here that I want to address.”

I say this because the one part of Grudem’s argument that I felt as forceful was Hillary being in control of Supreme Court appointments. That whole section of his argument was beyond scary. If you care at all about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, you cannot contemplate a row of Hillary appointments to the Court without horror. I do feel the force of that.

Our Actual Situation

What is the problem then? Just hold your nose and vote for Trump. But we are not voting for consequences and results. We are not voting for abstract principles. We are voting for a person. We are choosing between a corrupt clown and mendacious felon.

Now the fact that this is our only practical choice has to be received as a judgment from God. This is the hand of the Lord upon us. Read the first two proverbs of Proverbs 29 together.

“He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, Shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy. When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: But when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn” (Prov. 29:1–2).

Whether we get Trump or Hillary, one thing is certain. We deserve worse than that. We have to take up our problem with God, because He is the one visiting this plague of an election on us. And He is doing so for reasons that are righteous, holy and just. We deserve the rulers we have gotten, are getting, and are going to get. Wicked people get wicked options in their elections. The problem is not the RNC, or the DNC, or whoever else we might want to blame. We have met the enemy, as Pogo said, and he is us.

If the hand of the Lord is upon us, the way out is repentance. We cannot manage our way out. We cannot do a little voting triage. We cannot game the system. What is happening is the judgment of God. And if God is judging a stiff-necked people, as He manifestly is, it is no solution to suggest that we try to dodge the flaming hailstones. The way out is repentance. And I don’t primarily mean repentance at the polling booth. Right repentance will eventually show up at the polls, but I am talking about the country turning back to Jesus Christ through a great reformation and revival. If you want anything else, you are desiring salvation without a Savior.

The one thing we must not do in the meantime is tell ourselves lies about the nature of the situation before us. This is what that means. Given the nature of our dilemma, I am not prepared to condemn a brother in a swing state who votes for Trump while acknowledging that he is an appalling candidate. He is trying to do right in a complicated situation. But I do say that it is a problem—a major problem of self-deception—to say that Trump is a good candidate “with flaws,” as Grudem seeks to do. If the way out is repentance, then minimizing the evil is not that way out.

I can understand why some will vote for Trump, while knowing that there is no real hope there. But I cannot abide the pressure to lie for Trump. It is one thing to lose the election. It is far more serious to lose your soul. And Jesus says that if the whole world were in the balance, you should still choose to guard your soul.

“For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” (Matt. 16:26).

Skip to 260 Comments
Letters
Submit A Letter to the Editor. Well-written, fair-minded letters may be interacted with in featured posts. Also, please mention the title of the post which you are addressing.

260
Leave a Reply

avatar
 
24 Comment threads
236 Thread replies
0 Followers
 
Most reacted comment
Hottest comment thread
46 Comment authors
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIANjillybeanLuke PrideWesley SimsChristian Histo Recent comment authors

  Subscribe  
newest oldest most voted
Notify of
Shannon Brown
Guest
Shannon Brown

There is an unusual wind blowing within the church. Christians who have supported Trump from the beginning and those who are now coalescing around him are anxiously pushing back on those of us who refuse to vote for him and are vocal about it. I feel the fear and it troubles me more than anything that this election may be dividing brothers.

insanitybytes22
Member

Perfect love casts out fear. God’s got this thing. Take heart.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I’m not voting for Trump, but I see a whole lot of people indulging in bad motivations for not voting for him.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Youre not voting for Trump now? Haha. You were one of the clowns promoting him a few months ago.

I understand people who hold their nose and vote for Trump because of the Scotus. I am not doing that but I understand. What I cannot understand is anyone who was so dumb as to support him the primary.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Not sure where I’ve ever “promoted” Trump other than to say that Trump has done an admirable job attacking our common enemies, and all the other candidates were worse at doing so.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Ok.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

I love that you think that all the other candidates were “worse” than a porn producing, pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-big government, Howard Stern acolyte. Waa waa.

I guess if my template for what good looks like was Russia, maybe Trump would be my favorite.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I hope you don’t read the Bible the way you read my posts.

Christian Histo
Guest
Christian Histo

Ok. Maybe I misread you. Let’s circle back and try again. You said that the USA was founded by liberals and that their objective was liberalization of our nation. (correct me if I am wrong) I stated that if that was their objective, they failed miserably because the nation they rebelled against (England) is more liberal and less Christian by a long shot than we are. You blamed that on WWI (not realizing that England was much more liberal than the USA by WWI). I then challenged you to give me an example of a country that has a better… Read more »

Capndweeb
Guest
Capndweeb

While praying for our elected officials just the other day I asked (as I always do) that those in positions of authority would know and DO the Lord’s will. I also pray for awakening, repentance, and revival each day.
And it occurred to me that the prayers of wretch like me would be far more likely to be effective for Trump than for Hillary.
Just an impression I got.

John
Member

Real question, not trying to argue, why? Can’t God’s saving grace reach Hillary as easily as Trump? Perhaps we can discuss over some lefse or lutefisk.

Capndweeb
Guest
Capndweeb

You’re absolutely right, gfkdzdds (you really should consider picking an easier name to type.) Nothing is impossible for God. But Trump counts evangelicals as allies. There’s even a report (by Dr. James Dobson) that Trump has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. On the other hand, it would not surprise me at all if Hillary had an Asherah pole and a golden calf in her basement. Again, Jesus could save either one, but we are told not to cast our pearls before swine. That means we are being told to be discerning–to make choices. So, I would contend that while… Read more »

John
Member

Yes, I think regardless of what Grudem or Thibiti or Wilson say the SCOTUS picks seal it for me. We know who Hillary will appoint. With Trump there is still an outside chance the sun will shine on a dog’s arse at least once a day.

Capndweeb
Guest
Capndweeb

Har! I kind of collect pithy, folksy sayings. I had not heard that one before! It’s similar to references about the south end of a north-bound mul….horse.

theo
Guest
theo

Near the close of the Democratic Party convention, Donald Trump used totalitarian language to “charm” hesitant voters. “If you really like Donald Trump, that’s great, but if you don’t, you have to vote for me anyway. You know why? Supreme Court judges, Supreme Court judges,” Donald Trump reportedly said at a rally in Iowa. “Have no choice, sorry, sorry, sorry. You have no choice,” Trump continued, calling the late Justice Antonin Scalia a “great guy” and acknowledging tied decisions at the Supreme Court after his death. – See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/07/trumps-abandonment-of-reagan-and-free-will#comment-2814999539 Trump believes he owns you. Listen to the threefold… Read more »

John
Member

Trump may believe he owns me but my vote does not depend on his opinion of me.

Eric Vought
Guest

“…my vote does not depend on his opinion of me.”

Perhaps not, but his actions once in office *do* depend on his opinion of you. Given that he believes he owns you, he has no reason whatever to actually carry through on his promise once he has your vote or to do anything else remotely in your interest ever.

You cannot carry out a limited capitulation if he believes you have nothing to negotiate with.

John
Member

True but Hillary “knows” I am a fool and I’ll go with the one who may possibly move in the right direction.

wtrsims
Member

Aye aye, Capn

insanitybytes22
Member

“My post didn’t actually have anything whatever to do with the alphabet, or with skin color, or with trying to offend racial-hypochondriacs…..”

Unfair or unjust as it may be, there IS a whole lot of racial hatred behind the Trump train. People sense that. Feelings actually matter, they tell us the truth about the things that are going on around us. So while it is easy to mock and ridicule people for allegedly being racial hypochondriacs, all that really does is deny the nature of the problem.

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

For what it’s worth, which is admittedly not much, I don’t think there is much racial hatred behind the Trump train. I think there is a lot in front of it, people who oppose him projecting their own suppressed guilt and fear onto him.

insanitybytes22
Member

Really? While I can certainly see the subtle, insidious, and patronizing racism of the left, the alt right with their rabid antisemitism, their magic dirt theories, and their love for all things Trump is sure hard to deny. I’m not saying that is the state of the heart behind all Trump supporters, I’m just saying there is quite a bit of support for him on the white pride side. So, I think it’s rather unfair, unjust that people would accuse Wilson of racism, but given the environment of real honest to goodness racism that we are actually marinating in, I… Read more »

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

You know more about the alt right and white pride than I do. I know so little about them that I wonder whether they matter.

insanitybytes22
Member

They matter a great deal. They say something about what is in the heart of many people calling themselves Christians.

A President is kind of like a figurehead, who he is is not nearly as important as what propels him into office, what the heart of the nation is. The heart of our nation is pretty darn ugly right now.

steghorn21
Guest
steghorn21

Very true and a point often overlooked. Our leadership choices reflect us and it’s not a pretty picture today.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Please! “white pride” is such a déclassé term. We’re just “celebrating European-American heritage”.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Of course there is much racial hatred behind the Trump train. That’s what provided the initial momentum.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

@ME just shows her true feelings for people of a different gender!

insanitybytes22
Member

Really? It seems to me that my fondness for the opposite gender is what drives some of my dislike for what men are doing and supporting at the moment. My standards and expectations for men are high and I do not believe Trump is a worthy representative for all that is golden and glorious about men.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Nope, if a woman had said what Doug did, you’d let it slide. You offer correction only because of your gender bias.

JP Stewart
Member

Yep, this diversion should’ve received its own Hobby Horse Alert.

insanitybytes22
Member

Let what slide? I am full of praises for this post of Wilson’s. I’m not correcting him at all, I’m pointing him towards a part of the puzzle he may not be able to see.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

I’m speaking retorically. Someone could accuse you of gender bias against Doug when you said that he “denied the nature of the problem”. You would correctly say that your comment was not gender biased at all, but then you’d have to own up to the fact that Doug really does get it from a lot of anti-male feminists and we shouldn’t deny the nature of that problem either.

insanitybytes22
Member

Ah, I see. Well you sailed that one right over my head. Well done. :)

“… but then you’d have to own up to the fact that Doug really does get it from a lot of anti-male feminists and we shouldn’t deny the nature of that problem either.”

Which is true, too, and we shouldn’t deny the nature of that problem. I believe Fems are made, not born, so there is cause and effect happening.

Christopher
Member

Her conversations with jillybean and dunsworth suggest otherwise.

nathantuggy
Member

Poe’s Law much?

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Poe’s Law much?

Yeah, probably too much. It just takes too long to write out “I don’t necessarily disagree, but an opponent could respond to your argument thusly: ‘blah blah blah’. So then, how would you counter it AND remain consistent with your previous statement?”

I fear I often make myself into a bigger jerk than I actually am.

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

“We are choosing between a corrupt clown and mendacious felon.” Nuance that a bit: A mendacious felon who wants turn the US into a people’s republic. Who wants to end traditional economics, morality, religion, education, you name it and make us all beggars and slaves of the state. “We deserve worse” So true. “The way out is repentance.” Amen! Preach it! “But I do say that it is a problem—a major problem of self-deception—to say that Trump is a good candidate “with flaws,” as Grudem seeks to do.” Can’t we just agree that Trump is the antichrist and vote for… Read more »

Bro. Steve
Guest
Bro. Steve

I don’t know how Bro. Doug voted in Romney/Obama contest, so suffice to say this: Anyone who voted for Romney already swallowed the camel. There’s no point now in making a public display of retching at the gnat.

Jane
Member

So, people aren’t allowed to learn from experience and seeing the consequences of a prior choice play out?

wtrsims
Member

Is Trump?

somethingclever
Guest
somethingclever

Trump: ‘Why Do I Have to Repent or Ask for Forgiveness If I Am Not Making Mistakes?’
Apparently according to him, there are no mistakes to learn from.

wtrsims
Member

And you know that that’s his current position after men closer to him have said otherwise?

somethingclever
Guest
somethingclever

I’ll take note that you admit his positions shift like the sand.

wtrsims
Member

So, I refer to men saying that Trump actually has repented of sin and is now a believer and your response is, “WHY WON’T HE MAKE HIS MIND UP ALREADY!?!?!?!”?

Curious.

somethingclever
Guest
somethingclever

You seem well-prepared for an argument we’re not having. At least I’m not having it.

wtrsims
Member

What in the dickens are you talking about, somethingclever?

You said:

“Trump: ‘Why Do I Have to Repent or Ask for Forgiveness If I Am Not Making Mistakes?’
Apparently according to him, there are no mistakes to learn from.”

That’s a quote in context of a theological question regarding sin and repentance. The “mistakes” referred to are sins — not merely wrong opinions.

I replied that men close to him have said that he’s since repented and become a believer. You appeared to take that as an example of his instability.

wtrsims
Member

I think I understand what you’re talking about now, that you were commenting on what I said regarding allowing Trump to change his positions to ones with which we agree, but your saying that in reply to my comment regarding Trump’s possible conversion was confusing.

somethingclever
Guest
somethingclever

I apologize for creating a misunderstanding, then.

Jane
Member

Yes. When I see evidence of him doing that I’ll be heartily glad.

But my question was, “Why am I disqualified from being concerned about X’ because I failed to be sufficiently concerned about X in the past?”

Bro. Steve
Guest
Bro. Steve

Jane D., I was merely pointing out the obvious, which is that many Christians who reject Trump have already voted for something much worse in Mr. Romney. I have personally not heard anyone making the argument that they’re declining to support Trump because of a lesson learned from the calamity of Romney. What I hear is pretty much one-dimensional: Christians are saying Trump is bad because of _________. I’m merely pointing out that anything truthful which fills in that blank is better than Romney’s Mormonism. If you abstained from voting for Romney, then at least you’re consistent. But many are… Read more »

Eric Vought
Guest

I did not vote for Romney and will not vote for Trump (or Hillary). But I disagree with your assessment that Romney is worse.

wtrsims
Member

Agreed. Jane, you’re an ally, and even more than mere ally in Christ, so don’t mistake any disagreement or getting crossways as anything like me thinking you’re an or the enemy. I think it’s certainly possible to have a good and consistent rationale for opposing Trump, even if I don’t agree. Pastor Wilson’s words are good for a reminder that repentance is in order, and it is personally a good check on me. Saying that, I also think that someone like Barnabas is justified in drawing out just what we’re repenting from and what that looks like, namely what kind… Read more »

Cynthia Changstein
Guest
Cynthia Changstein

You are so so right. Except instead of ‘If’, use ‘Because’. The correct posture for everyone is not to scramble for a solution but to go down on our knees. Our Lord is the solution. He’s got it. Not us. Him. ‘If the hand of the Lord is upon us, the way out is repentance. We cannot manage our way out. We cannot do a little voting triage. We cannot game the system. What is happening is the judgment of God. And if God is judging a stiff-necked people, as He manifestly is, it is no solution to suggest that… Read more »

Michelle
Guest
Michelle

I was deeply challenged and humbled and encouraged by this article about the Chinese Church in First Things. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/chinas-christian-future Surely we have a lot to learn from our Chinese brothers and sisters. One point that pierced me was the novelty of the experience the author articulated after he became a Christian, that when he criticized Chinese national leaders for their sin, that criticism was turned also on his own soul. I have a new understanding of what national repentance looks like after reading that article.

Kingdom Ambassador
Guest

“Hold your nose and vote!” is the inherent consequence of the Constitutional Republic’s unbiblical election process of biblicallly unqualified candidates into unbiblical positions of leadership. Intrinsic disaster! What else would you expect from the 18th-century founders’ usurpation of Yahweh’s exclusive election authority (Deuteronomy 17:15) that turned elections over to We the People, the majority of whom, according to Matthew 7:13-14, are in the broad way leading to destruction. GREAT PLAN!

Roy Thomas
Guest
Roy Thomas

How many of you voted for Romney?

Ilíon
Member

I can understand why some will vote for Trump, while knowing that there is no real hope there. But I cannot abide the pressure to lie for Trump.

Indeed. Yet, you were (and apparently, still are) willing to go along with Cruz’s lie about being Constitutionally qualified to be US president.

soylentg
Member

And yet again I have to say: Hobby Horse Alert!

Ilíon
Member

And yet again I have to say: *My* hobby horse is the insistence that the truth be said. Apparently, truth offends you. Why is that, do you ever wonder?

soylentg
Member

Truth does not offend me in the least, and the truth or falsehood of Cruz’s citizenship has nothing to do with my pointing out the love you have for your hobby horse. I’ll see you in the next comment section where I am sure you will find a way to drag your one trick pony into a discussion of something totally unrelated. ‘course I don’t always take the time to read the comments sections, so I might miss it. Feel free to try to slip one in unnoticed.

Ilíon
Member

In other words, you hate the truth.

soylentg
Member

My apologies. I did not realize that English is a second language for you. You’ll just have to come back and read my comments in a few years when you have mastered it.

Ilíon
Member

In other words, you hate the truth — it is for *that* you should be offering apologies.

eli
Guest
eli

There are two interpretations about who’s eligible: 1) someone must be physicially born in the United States or 2) one must be born a US citizen. Wilson (and myself, Cruz, and most in the legal profession) believe the second interpretation and we certainly aren’t alone. Calling this a “lie” is absurd. We may be wrong (though we’re not) but it’s not an intentional mistruth.

Ilíon
Member

No matter how may “interpretations”, there is one truth as to what “natural born citizen” means.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

There are two interpretations about who’s eligible …

Dude, you just stepped in it.

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

“But I do say that it is a problem—a major problem of self-deception—to say that Trump is a good candidate “with flaws,” as Grudem seeks to do. If the way out is repentance, then minimizing the evil is not that way out.” This is the hysteria Christian men must do away with. Just because Trump doesn’t hold to theologically correct views on forgiveness or Christian charity doesn’t mean he is unable to secure our borders, rebut political correctness, remove leftist federal government lackeys, or negotiate good trade deals for our working class. It doesn’t prevent him from selecting solid, conservative,… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Eagle_Eyed wrote: This is the hysteria Christian men must do away with. Eagle_Eyed is full of rebukes for Christians who are still concerned with principle. Eagle_Eyed proclaims that all that matters is pragmatics. Ironically, pragmatics itself has become his sacred principle that he swings against those who want to vote on principle. What Eagle_Eyed doesn’t seem to realize is that our nation is on an unsustainable track, about which the 2008 financial crisis was just a warning. We have so abused the fiat currency in this country that it is arguably beyond the possibility of walking back. By all measures… Read more »

Eagle_Eyed
Guest
Eagle_Eyed

Framing it as pragmatism vs. principle is a red herring. It’s a misguided way of thinking that only serves to rationalize foolish decisions and provoke feelings of self-righteousness. Finding equivalence between two different candidates, and placing oneself above the fray, is not a sign of humility. Either way, you contradict yourself in your prescription. In one paragraph, you downplay the impact of third-world immigration and cite the massive levels of federal debt as the impending doom on our country. In the next, you appeal to the spiritual state of the people–and offer vague appeals to humility and repentance as the… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Eagle_Eyed wrote: The choice of a president does not preclude spiritual revival among the people. Indeed, which is yet another reason why I’m not motivated by Eagle_Eyed’s pragmatic logic of the “lesser of two evils”. Eagle_Eyed wrote: Finding equivalence between two different candidates, and placing oneself above the fray, is not a sign of humility. Regarding the lack of humility and repentant demeanor, I find equivalence between the two major candidates. Eagle_Eyed hasn’t convinced me otherwise. He seems to be downplaying the value of repentant character, and I simply disagree with him on that. To refuse to be caught up… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

“…. She is not a fresh threat.”

Bingo. Of course, she won’t exactly help matters either.

Katecho
Member

Or Hillary may be a tipping point that wakes us up to our need for repentance. In that sense she could be a great help without even intending to be. Regardless, as Wilson has said, we aren’t called to predict the future. We should want to simply honor God where we are, with what we know. Sometimes, in seeking the peace of the city we live in, Christians have had to refuse the Sadducees in their compromise with the occupying empire, AND refuse the Pharisees in their nationalistic zealotry. It’s not the first or last time that Christians will have… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

In light of this, winning a trade deal or building a wall on our southern border is a complete distraction, and therefore utterly impractical. I can’t tell if katecho has autism or, worse, is an economist. He seems to treat money as real and people as abstractions. Yes, there’s a major financial crisis ahead. But this is primarily a money problem, not a wealth problem. Ejecting invaders and providing financial incentives for local manufacturing will aid in preserving the wealth still present in America. As katecho says, the currency problem is beyond fixing, so I don’t see how addressing other… Read more »

theo
Guest
theo

Trump is not an able man.
He does not fear God.
He does not love the truth.
He does not hate covetousness.
Even if he does all the things you hope he will (and there is no good reason to believe that he will), he is a dangerous, arrogant and unstable man who will constantly be in imminent peril. He will never give God the glory for anything that happens.

Eric Vought
Guest

“Supporting someone who has run on consistent conservative causes…” Your definition of ‘consisent’ must be dfferent from mine. Here’s one for sake of argument: “(of a person, behavior, or process) unchanging in achievement or effect over a period of time.” Try reading this and deciding if the definition applies: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/full-list-donald-trump-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801 . Trump lies compulsively. The fact that his lies might vaguely match an acceptable police now and then by complete accident is utterly irrelevant. More likely in any case is that he simply paid someone to compile and list some positions on his webs site which are arguably more palatabe… Read more »

David J. Ayers
Guest
David J. Ayers

Amen to all of this.

Ben
Guest
Ben

The idea that we need to “hold our nose” in order to vote for the lesser of two evils speaks to our wrong understanding of what voting actually is. We’re not hiring someone for a job. We’re not asking someone out on a date. We’re not selecting members of our fraternity, football team, or church. Politics is, quite literally, the study of how and when force can legitimately be used against non-violent people in order to maintain civilization. Therefore it follows that political voting is nothing more than deciding on how the gun being pointed at us is to be… Read more »

Matt
Guest
Matt

It is a bad election, to be sure. Clinton is one of the worst candidates the Democrats have ever nominated, but lucky for her the Republicans tried to one up even that. Obama is mediocre, but I’d give him a third term over either of these two. I feel bad for immigration and trade restrictionists. Their day in the sun finally comes, and they get Donald Trump for a representative.

James Frazier
Guest
James Frazier

Sorry to ask the same question again but I still can’t reconcile Exodus 18 with Bahnsen’s article… It seems like you are saying here that if you hold your nose while casting your vote for Trump you won’t lose your soul? Saying you “understand why” they would do that seems to concede a lot (or everything).

Why leave this middle ground hanging there?

John F. Kennedy
Guest
John F. Kennedy

The unfettered selection of rulers from a pool of 600,000 men (by Moses) is vastly different than the election we have before us. Equating the two is where the tension lies.

Steve H
Guest
Steve H

It is possible to vote with a clean conscience for the candidate who will cause the machine to burn down in the most expedient fashion? If repentance is the only way out, then perhaps we need ashes.

Katecho
Member

Because of the pattern of betrayal of limited government principles by the Republican party, and its ridiculous nominees in the last 4 or 5 Presidential elections, the party has been ripe for a kind of takeover. Similar to the Tea Party, Trump was able to capitalize on party weakness while he “essentially ran an independent campaign within the Republican Party” (Chediak). As the party establishment slides toward irrelevance, it still provides a useful platform in service to other movements. I’ve come to see the primaries as more interesting and determinative than the Presidential election itself. By the time things have… Read more »

Zachary Hurt
Guest

I don’t agree that voting for Trump is voting for the man in anything more than a technical sense. I think it is quite legitimate to maintain that a vote for Trump is a vote for a good outcome on the Supreme Court (Trump’s list is, after all, a good one), and a vote against a truly horrible outcome on the Supreme Court with immediate and long-lasting deleterious effects on the fundamental nature of the Republic and the rights of Her people, born and otherwise. This is not treating “dodging the hailstones” as a solution, but as resistance of one… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I respect your approach. However, I do not see the majority of voices (not all, as the hashtag goes – I have some friends who are in your boat, and I respect them as well) raised in favor of Trump saying this. No, the majority of people I see supporting Trump are actually happy about what he has to say. As Doug points out, even Grudem’s measured, thoughtful piece doesn’t go far enough in being honest about how vile and evil the man is.

Zachary Hurt
Guest

Yes, it is very unfortunate (though not very surprising) that so-called conservatives are willing to support Trump himself.

Ian Miller
Member

Why do you say not very surprising?

Zachary Hurt
Guest

For the post-primary supporters, I think it is a typical symptom of the timeworn Republican=Christian fallacy. For the early adopters, Trump’s nationalistic bent (which I am not *entirely* opposed to) and ersatz straight talk are attractive enough to account for the support.

Ian Miller
Member

Hmm. That makes sense. Christians are no smarter than anyone else (as evidenced by the large number of Christian Bernie supporters).

Anne Margulies
Guest
Anne Margulies

As a christian woman I am so sick of whimpy, suedo-intellectual christian men. Americans have a duty to vote. It is very simple – Hillary or Trump. Man-up! VOTE!

John F. Kennedy
Guest
John F. Kennedy

Ha-ha. Are you sure you didn’t mean pseudo-spiritual?

pennsteven
Guest
pennsteven

Being one named “Hailstone”, your title wasn’t to go unnoticed. Thank you for voicing honest and helpful thoughts in this topsy-turvy time.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Let us remember these encouraging words…

“If my people, who are called Americans, will elect a candidate who perfectly espouses conservative principles yet plays nobly and not according to the rules by which the world works, then I will hear from heaven, and drive back the Left, and restore the Christian, propositional nation of America according to Judeo-Christian principles.”

— The Book of Cruz, 3:2-4

wtrsims
Member

“If my people, who are called Americans, will elec[T] a candidat[E] who perfectly espouses conservative principles yet plays nobly and not accor[D]ing to the rules by wh[I]ch the world work[S], [T]hen I will [HE]ar fro[M] heav[E]n, and drive back the Left, and re[S]tore the Chri[S]tian, propos[I]tional nation of [A]merica according to Judeo-C[H]ristian principles.”

Goosebumps.

John
Guest
John

So what’s your argument for not voting for Trump? How is it better to not act than to act for what you fully acknowledge is better than the alternative?

Matt
Guest
Matt

You could look at this one of two ways:

1. it is always good to vote for the lesser evil.
2. it is sometimes good to vote for the lesser evil, below some threshold of evil.

Neither one strikes me as unreasonable. Someone might say that Stalin, while better than Hitler, is nevertheless so evil that supporting him in any way is itself doing evil.

John
Guest
John

I see it more in terms of: Should we let a greater evil or lesser evil exist?

Luke Pride
Guest

It did seem on every issue of policies that would be enforced Gruden had some scary good points, I.e corporate taxes. Not just Supreme Court nominees.
And Doug, I would take a page from his book and notice that the power to appoint the lower court judges is equally scary as the Supreme Court approvals.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

For a long time, I didn’t even look at your posts, as I assumed you’re a gay rights activist due to the juxtaposition of the word “Pride” in your screen name with the pink shirt.

So I was surprised to find out you’re nothing like that when I actually read a few of your comments.

Glad I was wrong.

Luke Pride
Guest

Pride is my last name. If I went to courts to get it changed cause of Homosexuality I would be a “hater”. Shirt is from a purity movement called “modest is hottest” and I would argue the color is magenta.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

I can’t read your shirt on my laptop. I’d never heard of the movement but, according to Christianity Today, Modest Is Hottest objectifies, shames, and harms women, so in their view, you’re still a “hater.”

http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2011/december/how-modest-is-hottest-is-hurting-christian-women.html

Luke Pride
Guest

bwahahahahaha

Luke Pride
Guest

What happened to that magazine? Honestly I don’t have good enough control of my emotions to read it anymore.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

It certainly has wandered far from its historic roots. Did you know that both Christianity Today and WORLD began as pro-segregation publications? Christianity Today was run by Billy Graham’s father-in-law Nelson Bell in the beginning, and he was a hard core segregationist, and the magazine reflected his views. Bell also founded Southern Presbyterian Journal, and used its pages to support segregation. Southern Presbyterian Journal later changed its name to Presbyterian Journal, and then became God’s World News, and finally morphed into WORLD. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2016/05/19/the-sins-of-the-fathers/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2016/08/the-white-supremacist-roots-of-evangelicalism/ Also, one of the main reasons The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) was created was that… Read more »

Luke Pride
Guest

How do you mean segregation? Like different cultures can chose to maintain their cultures in their communities and not be forced into a melting pot? Or like the state prohibiting a mix?
There is something wrong if we tell people that staying in touch with their own culture is wrong. People can have a special love for and focus on their own culture, and nurture that in their children, without teaching other cultures are inferior.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

How do you mean segregation?

I mean the same thing they meant – legally enforced segregation by race.

Not by “culture”; by race.

Not optional; legally sanctioned and enforced.

Jim Crow, in other words.

Luke Pride
Guest

Oh, well, I’m not a supporter of that. However, I fear “progressives” take something like that, and assume any change away from what the past believed is good.
My view of the state’s authority wouldn’t extend to allowing them to enforce that. I mean even IF I agreed with it morally. But I don’t know all the history of it, I’m guessing a segregationist had reasons which are other than usually attributed to them.

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

But I don’t know all the history of it, I’m guessing a segregationist had reasons which are other than usually attributed to them. They certainly did. Of course, the only possible motivation for segregation people can conceive of today is insane, wicked, baseless animosity. This is the case for both believers and unbelievers. No one will grant any other possible motivations for segregation. Doug himself constantly refers to the people who believed and practiced segregation (which is pretty much all white people of America from about 1700 – 1970) as “irrational”, “bigots”, “hate-filled”, etc. This is Doug’s way of obeying… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member

I will grant other motives for segregation. I believe there were decent, sane people who believed that the races were too inherently different to live together in harmony. Of course, I also believe they were mistaken. One of my difficulties with the issue is that people who were ardent segregationists were nonetheless willing to have black people in their homes, cooking their meals, cleaning the bathroom, and taking care of children. If I thought that blacks were so different from me that I could not comfortably invite them to my dinner table, how could I be happy in the knowledge… Read more »

40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN
Guest
40 ACRES & A KARDASHIAN

It’s complicated, and I don’t feel like getting into a big discussion about it tonight. But suffice it to say that in all these positions, it was understood by all that blacks were the inferior, and whites the superior, and blacks “knew their place” and didn’t challenge the system or customs. I’m not sure I understand why the fact that you wouldn’t want to socialize with someone means you wouldn’t want them cooking your food. How many millionaires party with the guy who cleans their pool, even if he’s white? How many fast food workers are on your Christmas card… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member

It seems to me a pity that we have to have purity movements to deal with what is obvious. Back in the day, all ladies, whether religious or not, knew the meaning of respectable dress when they were out in public. If it will cause a riot, cover it up.

Doug
Guest

Perhaps our greatest need of repentance as a nation has to do with our nation’s founding, where we jettisoned official recognition of Christ as Sovereign, to favor instead, lending credence to any and all false gods under the label “Religious Freedom.” Our present situation is simply the consequences of that tragic mistake. The Church must repudiate this great act of infidelity to our LORD.