The situation described in the following letters is entirely fictitious, including persons, names, crimes, sins, relationships, circumstances and all particulars. The kind of situation that is described, however, is all too common and my hope is that biblical principles applied to this fictitious scenario may be of some help to individuals tangled up in a real one.
Dear Tomas,
Thank you for your letter, and for answering my questions so thoroughly. I hope that my reasons for asking those particular questions will unfold over our next few exchanges. After that we can get into the exegesis of particular texts about homosexual practices. You said that the overall tenor of Scripture is very plain to you, but that you often don’t know what to say exactly when some of your old friends tell you they have been reading some recent scholarship on 1 Cor. 6:9-11, say. It turns out that modern scholarship vindicates our current lusts in every detail!
Speaking of 1 Cor. 6, let me start with your response to my second question. I asked you for a description of yourself, an autobiographical character sketch. What you sent was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, and here is the reason.
Many Christians know that there is a problem when it comes to explicit sin, but what they frequently miss is the set up. When the devil says checkmate, they look at the board and recognize the fact of checkmate. There they are, looking a porn again, or blowing up in anger, or passing on a gossipy lie. What they don’t recognize is how that particular chess-jam was something that began five moves before.
And the reason they don’t recognize it is because the earlier moves are technically “innocent.” There is no sin involved when the devil moves that piece over here, and you moved this piece over there. Nobody says check, and nobody says checkmate. So all is good, or so they think.
We think we are in sin when the explicit problem flares up in an undeniable way. And what we don’t see is that an essential part of the set-up is put together out of what we considered to be our virtues or strengths. Put another way, Christians often need to learn how to repent of their virtues. Repenting of the vices is usually obvious—but what we don’t recognize is that our virtues, or rather what we think are our virtues, set us up.
A person who exhausts herself doing things for others that they never requested, and which they scarcely noticed, is tempted to fall into self-pity. When she gets there, she sees the problem, but doesn’t see that all her voluntary martyrdoms are setting her up. She thinks that those are her virtues.
And of course, sacrificial work for others, done the right way, is a virtue. But there is a way of being virtuous that is not necessarily virtuous, if you follow me. Genuine virtues can certainly contribute to setting someone up, but much of the time it is a counterfeit virtue. I am reminded of C.S. Lewis commenting on someone being the kind of woman who lived for others—and you could always tell the others by their hunted expression. I am not picking on women generally here—but I am anticipating something that we will get to when I pick up your description of your parents, particularly your mom.
The reason for bringing this up comes out in your description of your strengths and weaknesses. Now please understand—I am wanting to help you troubleshoot something, and I am doing this from a distance. I don’t know you in person, and so I am not making any assertions, still less any accusations or charges. But given my experience counseling other young men in your shoes, this is something that is really worth checking. This is frequently where the problem lies.
So here goes. Your description of your strengths emphasized, right at the top, virtues like “gentleness,” a “listening spirit,” a “peacemaker,” and “sensitivity.” In short, these are things that you are trying to cultivate and reinforce and, when asked directly, were willing to put on your spiritual resume. Now please understand me here—gentleness really is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22), we really should be quick to listen (Jas. 1:19), the peacemakers really will be called sons of God (Matt. 5:9), and sensitivity is also an apostolic virtue (1 Thess. 2:7). But even on the supposition that these are the genuine article, and not counterfeits, the thing that strikes me about the list is how lopsided it is. Even as true virtues, these are the soft virtues. Where is boldness (Acts 4:13), or courage (Dt. 31:6), or manliness (1 Cor. 16:13)? If a man should be a velvet-covered brick, as the expression goes, I see the velvet. But where is the brick?
Now the reason I bring this up is because the evangelical church generally has been wary of unvarnished masculinity for several generations now. Many men have become pastors because they grew up in the church with all the church ladies telling them that they were the “sweetest boy,” and that it was only logical to assume they were destined for the pulpit. That has had an impact on the culture of the church generally. The evangelical church, if not overtly effeminate, has a culture that is conducive to effeminacy. So long as there is no overt sexual problem or scandal, an effeminate man, remaining such, can rise in the evangelical ranks. His soft manner presents no barrier for him.
You have repented of explicit homosexual acts, which of course, is exactly what you need to have done. But you have come into a world that flatters and reinforces certain habits of mind in you which, when they come to nasty fruition at one in the morning, are a true stumbling block to you. Your temptation is to think that these lusts just attack you out of thin air, or that the problem has to do with the lateness of the hour. But it is more complicated than this.
Run this thought experiment. Imagine someone who has only known you since you started attending a more conservative church. They know nothing of your previous lifestyle, and over the course of a year, they have gotten to know you pretty well, and all they know of you is within the context of that church. If, after a year, that person finds out about your background, what does he then say? If it something like that figures, or now it makes sense, this is not a testimony to their unfortunate stereotyping. In other words, there is not an automatic connection between soft effeminacy and homosexual behavior. But there is a connection, and it is a connection that is all the more dangerous to men in your position because so many evangelical Christians insist on denying that there is any connection. And people fall into traps when it becomes rude or discourteous to post any warning signs by them.
And this brings us back to 1 Cor. 6. There are two words that describe the problem in this whole area. “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither . . . effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9–10). The word translated effeminate is malakoi, referring to soft men. When it got to the point of overt immorality, he would be the one who played the female, he would be the catamite. The other word, arsenokoites, is possibly a coinage by the apostle Paul. This is the man who couples with another man. He is the sodomite.
Now the thing to notice here, the thing to ask yourself, is whether or not you were being one of the malakoi in the weeks prior to a particular onslaught of overt sexual temptation. Look at the moves prior to the check and the checkmate.
I don’t want at all to create the impression that this point is the only thing involved. Of course not. There are many other factors, and I trust we will get to them in due course. Perhaps when our exchanges are completed, you can come back and read through the letters as a whole. I trust that this point will make better sense to you then. This is just partial. It is just the first step, but we have to start somewhere. In my next letter I hope to get to the nature of desire, including sexual desire, and that is far more complex a question than we usually think. And a lot of it is not what we would call sexual at all.
Blessings on you. Give my regards to Brett.
Cordially,
Douglas Wilson
Photo by Alejandro Escamilla on Unsplash
To summarize, your theory is that when counseling someone who has struggled with homosexuality desires, a pastor should encourage them to reject or at least suppress what they see as their natural character traits of “gentleness,” a “listening spirit,” a “peacemaker,” and “sensitivity.”
Is that an accurate summary of what you are suggesting in this letter? If not, could you or someone else try a 1-2 sentence summary?
To repent of your virtues in this context is to repent of the ways in which a sinful heart can pursue virtuous things in a distorted way.
Therefore, the point is not for an effeminate man to suppress or reject his natural good character traits but to identify the ways in which these “natural” character traits are being pursued in a distorted way.
Gentleness is only truly virtuous when expressed in the right context, to the right degree, and with the right motive.
Greetings! For me personally, the question is how has pursuit of the person I want to be led me to do things that I don’t want to do? I once prided myself as being “happy-go-lucky” (joy), level-headed (self-controlled and patient), and politely gregarious (kindness). When I used these natural character traits to bed any woman that would have me, encouragement to examine how I played the whole chess match, versus just the last few moves and subsequent result, could have been helpful. Instead, I just kept spilling milk. And instead of crying over it I just poured another glass, and… Read more »
Yes, that would make sense – the specific actions of flirting with women in which you employed those traits were a danger. I’m not sure how that applies here. I didn’t see where Pastor Wilson accused him of being gentle or peacemaking in a flirtatious way. And I don’t see how showing bravery or courage would mitigate it. Are gay men attracted to other gay men who are peacemakers, but then turned off by them if they are courageous? I’m not trying to joke – it’s difficult for me to see the connection between your example (using one’s traits to… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, I’ll describe how I think it applies – though I’ll admit when I stray from personal experience I’m less confident in the connection. Among the few male and female homosexual couples I’ve interacted with, my perspective is that one of the couple is more masculine and one more feminine – regardless of sex. If Tomas only displays gentle virtues, unknowingly perhaps, he’s already picked a side. I don’t know the physical attributes that attract homosexuals to one another, so barring them I assume that personality/affect/mannerisms matter even more. If this premise is true, then a man whose virtues… Read more »
One issue with that Doug adds, “But even on the supposition that these are the genuine article, and not counterfeits, the thing that strikes me about the list is how lopsided it is.” Meaning that he has an issue with Tomas identifying such as his primary virtues even if they are genuinely his primary virtues. And Pastor Doug doesn’t seem to have any reason to suspect they’re not genuine. The suggestion is that exhibiting these particular virtues sets one on the path to acting out homosexually. That somehow peacemaking and a gentle spirit could “set us up” to act out… Read more »
J’, here is a similar situation that demonstrates the principle.
Titus 1 lays out the qualifications for Elders, a husband of but one wife being one of them.
My church has female elders, in disobedience to The Word.
How did my church get themselves to be this disobedient?
They were and are too “gentle and peacemaking” on this issue, and did not fight to stay true to The Word.
I’ve never took “gentle” to be a descriptor of which position you take, simply how you choose to express it.
But either way, did the gentleness of your church lead them into homosexual behavior?
Well, whatever it was, it was not steadfast resistance to disobedient compromise.
Our host’s point is that anyone’s fall into temptation and sin, is usually not the result of a single attitude or action, but a progression of circumstances and errors that culminate in a fall.
They were “peackeeping” Adad, as opposed to peaceMAKING. There is a big difference between how those two words play out. Making the peace requires a willingness to engage in confrontation and genuinely resolve issues. Keeping the peace is about smoothing things over,compromise, never really getting to the heart of the problem.
If it makes you feel any better, defiant and rebellious me, would still find it really disturbing to have women as elders, in fact, I’d probably flee. Something is all broken there.
Thanks Memi. So far, I think I have been tasked with living, if not speaking prophetically to the disobedience of my church leadership.
John, my church is park street church in Boston. I have gone there since 1987. I never joined as a political “member”. Park street fell off the male elder only wagon about 20 years ago. Grace chapel, our “sister” church ( and Gordon MacDonald’s former church) fell off the male elder only wagon a year or two ago, following Park Street Churches example. Both of these churches get their apostasy mojo from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. Wilson wrote a book, which I have not read, called “why pastors (or elders) must be men”. I’d give your church that message, and… Read more »
My church doesn’t have elders, so it doesn’t arise for me. We do have women parish councilors but parish councils deal with leaky roofs and so on. We also have women in parish ministry, but no one other than the priest has spiritual authority.
But, other than the scriptural injunction, why would it disturb you? Is it the issue of women having any authority over your spiritual life? If you were on trial (heaven forbid), would you be bothered by having a woman as your judge or on your jury?
Jilly, God instructed us to have men as elders. Perhaps part of His reason for this instruction is that it then requires men, to man up to the task.
Again, whether we can admit it or not, we are all in a continuum of authority like the centurion described to Jesus.
Beyond that, I don’t have any problem with anyone in a proper role of proper authority.
If fact, when I was on trial, literally, on false charges brought against me by Grace Chapel, it was a female Judge, who quite wisely threw out their fraudulent law suit! Thank God!????????????
@adad0
Since elders are not immune to church discipline (1 Tim. 5:19-20), can you find another “witness” or two to initiate it?
If so, and the leaders will not support the church discipline, why would you continue to fellowship with such a group?
For the same reason Elijah, Jeremiah, the other prophets and Jesus stuck with Israel. ????
If you’re going to be Jeremiah, just remember to be the bullfrog and not the weeping prophet,okay? :)
Was a good friend of mine.
Jonathan – forgive me for jumping so far back in the conversation, and also, for repeating something if someone has made the point, but I read quite a few of the replies and didn’t see anyone point out what Doug actually said in the letter. Doug makes clear his point in linking those soft virtues with eventual homosexual temptation: as he said, there is not an automatic connection, but there IS a connection. His answer to your question in the letter is the velvet covered brick. His point is not that these virtues lead to homosexuality. His point is not… Read more »
Doug also identified a distortion in his strengths. He is asking him (implicitly) to repent of the virtues he has yet to put on, and suggesting that the virtues to the extent they are in the service of not-truly-virtuous ends (overtly realized or not) need to be reevaluated in their present form (a point a previous responder makes better).
No true virtue needs to be put off and Doug is not suggesting it should be.
D. D. Douglas
This was my (undoubtedly uncharitable) reading: (1) When a kid turns out gay, blame the mom. She doted on him too much, but was always letting her passive aggressive resentments leak out all over him. And she probably let him miss football practice when he had a cold. And then told him what a wuss he was. (2) Men who become pastors these days tend to be gentle and sensitive, even if not gay. They may not be fairies themselves but they act like them. So they’re at a disadvantage when it comes time to point out that Real Men… Read more »
Wow Jill…are you mirroring someone else? This doesn’t even sound like you, particularly the John Piper quip…
No, but I find this kind of advice extremely irritating, and it makes me want to bake a three-tier sarcasm cake. I like John Piper, but judging by the standard Doug presented, he is insufficiently masculine because he is gentle. Doug is calling for pastors to be less effeminate. I don’t see gentleness and sensitivity as effeminacy, but clearly Doug does. That’s why I said that, using Doug’s own standards, John Piper should be channeling John Knox. Not all gay men are the same. They are not all timid and gentle good listeners who get along really, really well with… Read more »
Jillybean, You are not thinking clearly on this. You know this is not an accurate characterization of the good pastor’s words. I get irritated by the assumption that there is only one way in which to be a Real Man. I agree that there is tremendous diversity of character among godly men. But, as I have been trying to convey to Krychek_2 in a different discussion, this does not do away with the category. There are traits which are in fact characteristic of men, would you agree? Which means that, on a spectrum, there are men who could lack, or… Read more »
Kilgore, this is so complicated, and it might be more so because I don’t see this issue from a Reformed point of view. There is no disagreement between us that homosexual acts are sinful. What I have been taught about the Romans verses is that Paul is not saying role reversals and effeminacy lead to gayness. He is saying that being homosexual is the final stage of being a reprobate. In other words, it’s the punishment, not the cause. I don’t think I agree with this, but that is the explanation I have been given. I think there is a… Read more »
There is no disagreement between us that homosexual acts are sinful. Great! But in a counseling environment, we have to look at the causes of sinful failures. The chess analogy is apt. If we refuse to change our fundamental thinking in these things, we get the same. For instance, when I was a drunken madman, I had to look deeply at the causes of what I was thinking that led me to drink, and the causes of what led me to violent outbursts. If someone had told me that all of the decisions and thinking leading up to the sin… Read more »
Thank you, Kilgore, all that makes sense. I did overdo the sarcasm and uncharitableness, and I realize now that I was reacting, not so much to what was in front of me, but to my irritation with a certain viewpoint on the cause and cure of gayness. I was, I fact, assuming that Doug thinks gentleness makes you gay, and that going hunting instead of to the opera is an essential step in recovery! I wonder if I will ever be able to have cigarettes in the house and not smoke them, or have my laptop in the house and… Read more »
Not that I have any interest in or abilities for the opera, but it is manifestly a raw talent and art that many men, many godly men, possess. It, too ought to be used to the glory of God.
I may be wrong, but I think Reverend Wilson would agree.
I think so too.
In my secret Walter Mitty fantasies, I have amazing talent for the opera. On stage at the Met, looking unbelievably fabulous of course, I belt out the aria from Lucia Di Lammermoor that ends with an F above High C. The audience goes wild, pelting the stage with roses and shouting “Bravissima!”
In the meantime, I sing “Memories” in the shower, and sometimes my Siamese will join in on the high notes.
Your vision of being an opera star was great, but I have to confess to not knowing many of these references. This is clearly an issue of culture and education gap. What is a Walter Mitty fantasy? I know there is a famous book by that name, correct? Is the Met short for Metropolitan something. Opera? I have no idea what the aria is or who Lucia Di Lammermoor is. I suppose I would assume that Bravissima is Latin or Italian for Bravo? I kind of thought Bravo itself was Latin or Italian. I am also not sure what Memories… Read more »
I don’t think being an opera buff has anything to do with being cultured or educated; if you live with someone who’s seriously into it, you will either hate it or come to love it. In any event, you will have been told all about it until your ears bleed. In my childhood home, compulsory silence descended on us kids every Saturday afternoon so my mum could listen to “Live from the Metropolitan Opera House” in New York. If one of us burst an appendix, we waited until the intermission to report it if we knew what was good for… Read more »
1. I can’t imagine going to see Cats, but Memory is an incredible song, and really fun to sing (or would be, if I knew enough of it.) Not that anyone would have fun listening to me sing it. 2. I never got the idea of “Nixon in China” as an opera, either. I guess someone thought he was making a Really Important Statement by composing that one, but sheesh, it’s not exactly La Boheme or Don Giovanni, is it? However, English opera has to its credit the inimitable Porgy and Bess, the only opera I’ve actually seen live. 3.… Read more »
Who played Bess in the production you saw? Have you heard Audra McDonald’s cover of “Summertime”? It is like being bathed in honey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3L1FUJylZQ. If I tried to sing in that range, my cats would be covering their ears with their paws. The trouble with singing “Memory” is that it is easy to get pitchy. That is why I have been working on it in the shower almost daily for 25 years, with occasional breaks for “Ruby, Don’t Take Your Love to Town.” When I was looking for “Memory” on Youtube, I found this, of which I am very fond.… Read more »
It was about 35 years ago (ouch that hurts) so I don’t recall who Bess was. The only thing I remember about the casting was Larry Storch of F Troop, as Sportin’ Life.
I love to sing “Summertime,” too, but again, only when home alone.
The main point with opera is that you have two basic models: the Italian, which has far better songs and were designed to be enjoyable, and the German, which has far better stories and are louder, and but require an advanced degree in mathematics and amphetamines sit through. Of course Giuseppe Verdi, who is the Greatest of All, solves this problem by borrowing half of his stories from Shakespeare and giving the trumpets and kettledrums their head. Americans have written operas, and for some reason continue to do so. I myself appeared in a production of “The Man Who Mistook… Read more »
And don’t forget our darling Puccini! What I remember about Oliver Sachs’ book, which I read in the faint hope of getting a handle on my migraines, was that it was a medicine-for-laymen account of weird and unusual neurological conditions. How could this possibly support the plot line of an opera, even a bad opera? Was it the tragedy of losing one’s mind, or of suffering freakish brain malfunctions? Surely you are not telling me you think Webber is better than Sondheim! Speaking of whom, my daughter went to see the new Sweeney Todd in New York today. She said… Read more »
Weak sauce – I think to capture the real feeling of the Scottish play you have to kill a few random audience members each night. I say let’s be method, or not at all. And Sondheim is very clever, but he’s self-indulgent. That’s the whole business. He needs a Paul McCartney to give his cleverness direction and shape. That’s why West Side Story is fantastic, and Into the Woods is… well, you know.
Point taken. And you did say you were being uncharitable at the start. I think that one of the draws for me to this blog is that Pastor Wilson always encourages me to think biblically (references included), even if his interaction with culture doesn’t resemble mine. He makes me think about how I would do it if I were in the same situation. Having been stationed in Long Beach, CA for a time, I would agree that not all gay men are the same. I really don’t think Pastor Wilson is addressing their personalities at all, but the active and… Read more »
You too, John!
Jill, I observed elsewhere but I think it bears emphasizing… Pastor Wilson here was not eschewing the virtues of gentleness, sensitivity, etc. he went out of his way to outline that gentleness, peacemaking, sensitivity, and a listening spirit were in fact virtues, and to detail where in the Bible these are commanded and enjoined. His critique was that boldness and courage were absent, not that gentleness and sensitivity were present. And I perceive that what he was getting at, moreover, is this: gentleness that is not *chosen* (from a position of strength) is not a virtue. I can speak autobiographically…… Read more »
I have to admit I had a bit of a similar thought when reading it. This sounds like an external approach rather than getting to the heart of the matter, though I know he will. In the same way “men look on the outside but God looks on the inside” with regards to our evaluation of things, this works both in the positive and the negative. When the virtues were mentioned it doesn’t seem helpful to then decide they might be too virtuous to become effeminate, I don’t see the Bible assigning certain levels of certain qualities to certain sexes.… Read more »
Well, I’m glad you also noticed that and that I’m not just being a cow who forgot her Prozac three days running!
Jilly, everyone knows that you are feline, not bovine! ; – ) Prozac or no.
I overdid the sarcasm. I do believe what I said (not about Doug but about the views I attributed to him), but I got carried away. Whether entirely due to passionate disagreement, or due to the pleasure of working Friend of Dorothy into a sentence, I am no longer sure.
But I have retracted my claws and will go back to napping on the sofa.
Totally feline. She’s cat-holic. (Coincidence? I think not!)
Good one, Indighost!
Hi gabe. This is an approach that discusses internal traits, which are manifested outwardly to those you interact with. Our behaviour is an important (though imperfect) indicator of what is within. I think that is what Doug is addressing. Regarding your question about external balance, homosexuality is different from almost every other sin in that it is a fundamental matter of identity. God designed man for a particular role. Man is king over the whole earth. A man is the leader of his house. He is to have all the attributes of a ruler; strength, courage, wisdom, integrity, compassion. I… Read more »
You are right our behavior is important but touting certain virtues over others is not indicative of much. Why not look at sinful behaviors rather than creating male and female hierarchies of human traits with more basis in our assumptions and culture than the Word of God. Sure you can act effeminate raising your voice, dress like a woman, talk about female issues exclusively as a man, but those are not indications of how good a peacemaker you are. In your example a King must be more of this than that. But a great King would be both balanced in… Read more »
For myself it wasn’t just that it was an external approach, but that it feels logically to me that trying to get someone to associate their own natural external traits with a sexual orientation might be counterproductive. Saying “yes, it is good that you are a peacemaker and gentle, and we’ll help show you how those can be leading characteristics of a good Christian man” seems more likely to be effective to me than, “Those traits are all well and good, but if you don’t elevate some more masculine traits above them, you’re in danger of slipping right back into… Read more »
Yup, it would be more helpful to examine how and if those virtues are distorted rather than assuming they must be because of homosex. Quite frankly being a peacemaker is not always easy, it takes courage to get in the middle of something and attempt to bring about a peaceful end, someone who can do that gently is skilled and wise, peace making is not effeminate at all. (Not meaning something that women can’t do-see how silly that is?) Yeah I think assuming Homosexuals need more chest thumping is entirely missing the point. However, knowing Doug he will probably make… Read more »
“Yeah I think assuming Homosexuals need more chest thumping is entirely missing the point.”
Somewhat sad to me is the automatic assumption that embracing more masculine traits is “chest thumping,” a negative,somehow shameful. IMO, embracing one’s strengths is the of precise opposite of chest thumping, as in the men who are less balanced within themselves, tend to thump their chests externally quite a bit.
Exactly, I don’t either, now just replace chest thumping with something silly like say less peace making or gentleness or any of the imagined feminine-water-heavy traits and the point stands. A jet in either direction trying to discover what is more manly based on an assumed trait is silly and hardly helpful.
@Jill Smith I don’t see gentleness and sensitivity as effeminacy
No, but the effeminate may see gentleness and sensitivity as their virtues.
Yes, and so may very feminine women who will do anything to avoid unpleasantness. (That is me, in person, although I don’t tend to see my gentleness as virtuous.) Some of these are not virtues, I think, but personality traits for which we can take no credit. Even-temperedness and a pleasant disposition are inborn gifts from God. I think that sensitivity is a gift from God as long as it is directed outward as a way to help and comfort people. The other kind is a curse. But I got to thinking more about Tomas’s reply. If, when asked his… Read more »
@Jill Smith In other words, does effeminacy always accompany male homosexual attractions?
Possibly not, but it is very common. Doug has to choose some option if he is to write to a specific person (even if hypothetical). Effemininity is a common problem.
I guess he could have chosen other paths such as being sodomised as a teenager, or having an absent father, or an unsubmissive and domineering mother, or just experimenting in a sexually liberal environment until becoming unable to rid oneself of the behaviour. Perhaps some of these may come up in future letters.
Or perhaps his sensitivity and gentleness were interpreted as effeminacy and rejected by his father and his father’s church, leading him to seek affirmation from other men.
jonathan perhaps, but in that case it is the rejection from the father.
And a boy can be sensitive and gentle without being effeminate.
Here’s the link – the whole essay is useful, but it’s “putting the pieces together” near the end that gets to the practical application to this essay:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/the-complex-interaction-of-genes-and-environment-a-model-for-homosexuality.html
Yes, he is a gentle man. But not a soft, passive one. I think that’s exactly the distinction that needs to be made!
“1) When a kid turns out gay , ….” – or it could be what the Roman Catholic Priests did to them…
The sexual abuse of children by Roman Catholic priests was evil beyond words. You will not find this Catholic defending them. I don’t know how many of those children later became gay, but in any event their lives were often destroyed. Just as evil were the cover ups, the payment of hush money, and the use of church lawyers to attempt to prevent victims from testifying.
But we *did* find The One True Bureaucracy doing as bureaucracies always do — protecting itself rather than protecting the victims (both existing *and* not-yet-victimized) of the perps withing its ranks.
Yes, that is true. The fact that they were Christian makes it infinitely worse. I hope that the situation has improved. Despite the priest shortage, the Catholic church is being more careful about not ordaining anyone whose history is problematic. And the rules for contact with children are rigid. I am a pretty respectable woman in her sixties, but even so, I may never be alone with a child at a Catholic facility, or invite a child home, or take a child to lunch unless there are other adults present. And that is after the finger-printing and background check. There… Read more »
Jill, one thought I have, with regard to myself, and my recent troubles is this: When I choose to think the best of other people, I tend to think of myself as being magnanimous. But on the other hand, thinking the best of other people is also the easiest thing to think, when it may actually be wrong to think so well of people, who really are not so great. This idea is not a knock against being magnanimous, but a caution that being dishonestly magnanimous, will likely create some troubles. An obvious example of such dishonesty would be saying,… Read more »
Ha! The “cat’s pajama of sanctimonious virtue taking itself to the felony level?” Good word play.
That’s absolutely dreadful, but you are so right, I have seen it.
I’ve been on the perjurious affidavit end of it! ????????????
Adado, I think that you do have a magnanimous nature. You say that thinking well of other people is the easiest thing to think. Not for a lot of people, it isn’t, For some people, ill will toward others comes pretty naturally! But I agree that it can blind you to potential problems, and it can, as you say, be used to avoid the duty of confronting wrong doing.
I think one of your peace-making strengths is that you make it easy for people to back down without feeling they have lost face.
I hav doubt you would find Doug affirming every virtue you mention, Jill, as he in fact does….but, you can’t say everything all the time. And, because this being the world God made, since you can’t do it, invariably, at any one time, not everything needs to be said. What needed to be pointed out to him was a subset of the whole counsel of God–not a denial of the rest of the counsel of God. My observation of several different cases would say yes, a mother is involved somehow in the sexual direction of their children, and more commonly… Read more »
Don’t know how to edit but the first line should read:
I have no doubt you would find Doug affirming every virtue you mention, Jill……
Wish I could edit, or proof-read better….
David, immediately after you hit the post button, wait for your comment to appear. Then press Edit. Your whole post will appear in a box, and you can proofread and edit then. Then there’s a button to re-post.
That only works if you are logged in when you post, though.
Yes, it was uncharitable, but I still believe that Doug’s advice, as written, is based on some inaccurate assumptions. I don’t understand what makes people gay, and I don’t think anything short of miraculous intervention takes away gay desires and impulses. I believe that a gay Christian must not act on his desires, and that he usually needs help in maintaining his celibacy. I am right on board with advice about avoiding sexually active gay friends, staying away from bars and porn, and trying to build as happy and virtuous a life as possible under the circumstances. I know some… Read more »
Amen
LOL! I’m quite delighted to see your righteous indignation, Jilly. That is a charming role reversal indeed.
“I am reminded of C.S. Lewis commenting on someone being the kind of woman who lived for others—and you could always tell the others by their hunted expression.”
In crazy upside down world, I just loved this piece. Pastor Wilson has nailed it. How blessed I was to have read CS Lewis so long ago. Feminine virtues have a way of going awry too, and they create exactly the dynamic that is being described.
My problem with the idea of feminine and masculine virtues, both of which can go awry, is that I don’t think faith, hope, charity, justice, prudence, and courage are gender-specific. If someone is stuck inside a burning house and there is no fire truck in sight, my religion requires me to do what I can to get him out. If someone is attacking you with a knife, my duty is to get between you and the knife. I am required to have developed courage to such a point that I could do this (theoretically). I can’t say, well, I was… Read more »
“I don’t necessarily see a connection between where one lies on the femininity/masculinity spectrum and how one will react when a particular virtue is required…” When my son was about 9 he went mountain biking off the side of a mountain, hit a boulder, split his helmet open, removed a lot of skin. When his friends brought him home, there he was on the verge of tears, and every feminine virtue I had wanted to nurture, but I didn’t. I just gave him a high five and said “well done.” He just beamed, his whole epic fail, suddenly a great… Read more »
Well, you handled that one well. Not like me when my daughter fell off a horse and I was over the fence in a second. But my point was that virtues are not specifically masculine or feminine. There are women who do not coddle their children, and there are men who do. There are heroically brave women and unheroic men. I believe in gender differences, but I think they can be over-exaggerated and can lead to restrictions that don’t come from Scripture.
Jill,
“I believe in gender differences, but I think they can be over-exaggerated and can lead to restrictions that don’t come from Scripture.”
If you agreed that “restrictions” could also be “exaggerations”,
you and our host would find yourselves on pretty much the same page re: this post! ; – )
Pastor Wilson actually says a very similar thing in is article, “But you have come into a world that flatters and reinforces certain habits of mind in you…” This guy’s virtue menu is lopsided and exaggerated,in the sense that he is rejecting all the other virtues and not placing any value on them personally. It is not that the restrictions are coming from scripture,it is that he is self restricting. There are also some broken and wounded men in the world who do the precise opposite,they’ve abandoned all soft virtue and now perceive gentleness as weakness, masculinity as well,destruction. So… Read more »
I have read a Christian psychiatrist who suggested that it’s actually the “masculinity-seeking” father’s rejection of their more sensitive son that can push young pubescent men towards the gay community. I don’t know how much good research there is on this, but it makes more sense to me than Pastor Wilson’s claims. Search for Dr. Jeffrey Satinover “The Complex Interaction of Genes and the Environment: A Model for Homosexuality” and scroll down to “Putting the pieces together”.
I will look for that. Jonathan, do you think that any of these theories about causation are useful to the person struggling with same sex attractions? I worry too that they can be unjust to parents who did their best, and they can cause them quite unnecessary pain. Do you remember the theory back in the sixties that autism was caused by “Refrigerator Mothers”? What pain they must have suffered, searching their hearts for the unloving coldness that wreaked such havoc on their children. And the theory was absolutely false. Perhaps family dynamics play a role in creating a propensity… Read more »
Jonathan, I meant to respond to your question and accidentally posted it above. Also, I thought to observe that I see how it could be confusing given his language of repenting of our virtues, but to expound just a bit,I think the idea is that those gentle virtues *in isolation* from those other virtues of strength are often not real virtues. For instance, a person is meek or sacrificial when they freely choose to give deference to another person, even when they are strong enough to refuse to give such deference. This is virtuous. But there is no real virtue… Read more »
Very well said.
What you say is true, but I don’t see how it’s supported by the text and I don’t see how it relates to homosexual temptation. Tomas never says that he lacks those other virtues, he just doesn’t list them as his main strengths. I suspect it quite likely that what Tomas lists as his strengths will always be his strengths. He can build up other things, but that doesn’t mean they will surpass those traits which appear natural to him. It would seem that in terms of the particular question of homosexual temptation (which is the topic of the post,… Read more »
Jonathan, your last paragraph states calmly the thoughts that made me go off on this topic this morning. People have kindly helped clarify my thinking and have pointed out things I didn’t consider, but what it comes down to is that I simply don’t believe that the acquisition of a more rugged manliness or a proper Christian understanding of God’s design for masculinity is likely to change a fixed and long-standing same sex attraction. Suppose Tomas is diligent in seeking grace and learns to lead a celibate life. According to St. Paul, that isn’t enough; Tomas must also avoid effeminacy.… Read more »
@Jill Smith , perhaps not all gay men struggle with effemininity. But regardless, for those who do, advice to acquire the harder (masculine) virtues is good advice and not detrimental to gay men who do not struggle with effemininity. Secondly, it is not just that he has these virtues, he identifies these virtues. As such he is at risk of sinning with these virtues. This may be a particular risk for him because he sinning with soft virtues is a temptation to a particular sin that he struggles with. Thirdly, I think your advice is terrible and lacks appreciation of… Read more »
It is hard for me to judge this because, while I know horror stories of women who married homosexuals and ended up with AIDS, I don’t know the stories where it worked well for everyone. Maybe there are a lot of gay men who marry women and never have gay sex again. We don’t hear about the successes. But, all the same, if my daughter fell in love with a man who had a long history of homosexual relationships and an entrenched gay identity who now wanted to get married in the hope of avoiding sin, I would tell her… Read more »
@Jill Smith
Those concerns are reasonable, but you are treating a multitude of different situations as if they are the same. I was referring to a Christian man who is attracted to another man but knows it is against God’s law.
The secular world denies that marriage and family is an option for gay men. I am disagreeing with this position. I am not advocating marriage despite actual behaviour.
A man who has been promiscuous has to have stopped, whatever gender he is playing around with. And no one should go into a marriage without knowing people’s history.
“I simply don’t believe that the acquisition of a more rugged manliness or a proper Christian understanding of God’s design for masculinity is likely to change a fixed and long-standing same sex attraction.” Jill, I wonder if a different approach might help make sense of this…. by chance, could you see how squiring a deeper (rugged?) manliness or better understanding of true masculinity is helpful (and potentially critical) to help a man change a fixed and long-standing addiction to pornography? The immediate connection may similarly not be apparent, but after giving it thought (and hearing from personal testimonies), the connection… Read more »
Here is my one sentence summary — “He can explain it to you, he can’t understand it for you.”
In other words, if you insist upon being obtuse, that’s on you.
I had an ex-Marine friend who used to say, “I can repeat myself. But I can’t make it any clearer.”
Hi Jonathan, Simply put, it is the difference between what we think a virtue should be and what it actually is, in other words, who is guiding the heart. When a man tries to be a peace maker as he imagines a woman would be or a liberal man would be or as the culture dictates , he is falling into a trap. Becoming a peace maker is furthered by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not from the vanities of our imagination. How do we know what a true peace maker is except within the totality of the image… Read more »
I see the point as being to strive to exhibit other character traits such as boldness, courage and manliness rather than falling back on the “softer” traits which are easier for him to exhibit.
What does that have to do with homosexual sin though?
“If a man should be a velvet-covered brick, as the expression goes, I see the velvet. But where is the brick?” He saw a man that was all velvet and no brick, the solution would thus be to find the brick, not to toss the velvet. This is the summary I would suggest. I thought Pastor Wilson made his point clear with that illustration. He is not suggesting these character strengths need to be suppressed or rejected, but rather balanced with other traits that were missing. Further, he emphasized the importance and value of all those traits of gentleness, listening… Read more »
This is plainly obvious to anyone not reading into the good Reverend’s words.
Thinking that the title of the post and its explanation later in the post probably have a great deal to do with the point of the post isn’t “reading into”Pastor Wilson’s words.
You regularly take pastor Wilson’s and other commenters words and read them in the most uncharitable light possible. You will hopefully forgive me if I see this case as more of the same.
Thanks for the helpful insult. I don’t any examples to back up your attack on my character.
What was uncharitable about my reading?
Daniel, that all makes sense, and of course there must be strength behind velvet ways. But the fact that the gay man didn’t list virtues such as bravery doesn’t mean they don’t exist in him. If you asked me to identify my strengths, such as they are, I would say that I am generally truthful, patient, and helpful. You shouldn’t conclude from that list that I must be unchaste or else I would have mentioned it. You couldn’t even conclude that I think patience is more valuable than chastity. I know that nobody will agree with me here, and I’m… Read more »
“Or that an infusion of manly courage is going to make them straight?”
Well, I don’t think that’s exactly what is being said, but in truth it is usually an infusion of “manly courage” that makes it possible for any of us to over come challenges.
Pastor Wilson’s fictional character is attempting to change his behavior and the thoughts that lead up to it,and going to battle focused on the “softer side of Sears,” is simply a recipe for disaster.
I’ll be curious to see where Pastor Wilson goes with it, but while Jill’s “an infusion of manly courage is going to make them straight” was meant facetiously (I assume), it is closer to the truth than she might realize. So many homosexual men that I have talked with describe that one large part of their inclination is how absolutely terrifying it seems to try to enter into a truly intimate relationship with a woman. Learning how to do that, or more accurately, developing their masculine strength such that they became able to do that, is certainly one factor in… Read more »
I was under the impression that a very large percentage of gay men have had intimate relationships with women.
If you mean “more truly emotionally intimate relationships”, or something like that, then I doubt the average masculine heterosexual man is any less terrified of such a thing.
“I doubt the average masculine heterosexual man is any less terrified of such a thing.”
LOL, just remember,women can smell fear a mile away.
In all seriousness however,it plays a significant role in attraction. Guys who are fearful of their own more masculine characteristics are far less likely to be perceived as romantic partners.
But women come in different flavors, and plenty are drawn to precisely that type. The Woody Allen type is attractive to a lot of women (and I’m not one of them). Maybe the women are maternal and are drawn to the lost little boy kind of guy. Maybe they are terrified of potentially aggressive men. Or maybe they are drawn to quirky, self-deprecating men because they are often very funny.
Yikes. The Woody Allen type is also attracted to a whole lot of children…but we won’t go there.
Women do come in all different flavors and so do men, so tastes are as diversified as behavior. However, women who go for the hurt little boy or the bad,violent one, are always broken ourselves. Maternal love is not romantic love,and fear of aggressive men are both bad foundations for relationships.
Well, again I can only speak autobiographically – but I can at least testify to how helpful Pastor Wilson’s approach would have been for me many years ago. Mine is not the exact same struggle he is addressing, but there is so much overlap that I can at least speak to it. Had someone, some 20 years ago, similarly asked me to outline my strengths, my list would probably would have looked near identical: Sensitive, good listener, peacemaker, kindhearted, empathetic, compassionate. And I dare say that – in my case at least – had someone made the insightful observation that… Read more »
Thanks, Daniel. I think I tend to see courage (other than moral courage) as something external. In a way, you and your buddies were more courageous than most because they overcame those terrified hearts when duty called. But I understand the point you are making.
Jill, I fear I may not have been clear: Hanging out a helicopter on a line, pulling a ripcord, being in hostile environments and hearing gunfire (the extent of my own “courageous” acts)…. Were rather easy and instinctive in many ways. But the real tests of my courage – or lack thereof – were when I had to face off against another officer who wanted to intimidate me. And I caved, time and time again, absolutely terrified of the confrontation. I might have had some semblance of external courage – but absolutely I lacked the core masculine courage that Pastor… Read more »
That does make a lot of sense to me. I have often thought about whether I would have the courage to stand up to a fellow officer (assuming anyone had ever put this half-blind non-driver into a combat zone) and say “You can’t do this; it’s against the rules and it’s wrong.” Moral courage is very, very difficult and you don’t get medals for it. And even then you have to worry about your motives. I had a really brilliant therapist who was good at dissecting my motives. “Feeling a little grandiose today, Jill? Picturing that Joan of Arc statue… Read more »
Well, I appreciate the accolades, but for clarification I am a present Sailor, not (never was) a former Marine… That is a truly core question, and honestly I have a hard time clearly articulating it. But here’s my attempt, and forgive me for the length: First let me say what I think is safe to say, then I will add a speculation: 1) My lack of such courage absolutely felt, at core, as something that deeply touched on my sense of being a man – of my masculinity or lack thereof. That weakness didn’t simply make me feel less of… Read more »
Well, Daniel, you are making me agree with you in spite of myself. I was not sure about your final conclusion until I flashed on the image of Lynndie England mistreating prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Unless we agree that she was being “less than a woman,” then “woman” has no meaning except in the most elemental biological sense. I wouldn’t say that England lacked sensitivity. I think she used her sensitivity to hone in on the most lethally effective way to degrade her targets. This was not absence of sensitivity, but complete perversion of it. It was taking a quality… Read more »
Your words are really quite edifying, Daniel. All through my 20’s I had all the courage in the world, but very little softness. I wound up on the front lines of everyone’s battles, forever rescuing them. My husband, bless his heart, pushed back,or I would have trampled right over him, too. When women get out of balance that way, we can’t really be women, not in a way that brings us any kind of contentment or joy.
Similarly to some others, you managed an entire four-paragraph summary without once mentioning homosexuality, sin, or anything related to the title of the post.
I have no issue with what you said, it just doesn’t appear to be close to encapsulating the point of Pastor Wilson’s thesis.
Wilson is saying that in this case, the young man is struggling with effeminacy, and has latched on to and cultivated feminine virtues. Those virtues are not bad – they’re virtues. But having the virtues all on one side of the board is leading him toward perdition. This is, I trust we can agree, a problem. Wilson suggests dealing with it by cultivating masculine virtues as well.
So what’s the trouble, here? Do you reject the identification between effeminacy and homosexuality? Do you think there’s no such thing as feminine or masculine virtues? This seems like reasonable advice to me.
I’m not confident enough to feel “sure” about it yet, but if there is a connection between gentleness and sensitivity and homosexuality, I feel it is much more likely to be the connection that Dr. Satinover hypothesizes than the one Pastor Wilson hypothesizes. And if Dr. Satinover is correct, then Pastor Wilson’s advice might not only miss the point but actually be counterproductive.
If you want to get straight to the scenario, scroll 2/3 of the way down to the subheading “Putting the pieces together”
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/sexuality/the-complex-interaction-of-genes-and-environment-a-model-for-homosexuality.html
I don’t see that your alternative scenario and Doug’s are mutually exclusive. Your article even notes that it is merely illustrative, not exhaustive; nor did Doug state that his imaginary interlocutor is the One True Gay. It seems really that you’re criticizing Doug for writing about a different scenario than the one you happen to have in mind.
Moreover, homosexual behavior in many men obviously correlates with effeminacy. I don’t see how a reasonable person could disagree with that statement. Doug’s answer is just the logical pastoral response to that simple fact.
The issue with the scenarios is not that they’re mutually exclusive, but that they in fact may be the same. I’m wondering if you misunderstood the link, because it actually supports a “correlation” between homosexuality and gentleness and sensitivity. But it points out that the correlation is not a “sensitivity leads to homosexuality” causation, but instead it may be the rejection of sensitive sons by masculine older men which drives them towards the homosexual community. It is the assumption by male role models that there is something “wrong” with the young man’s natural gentleness and sensitivity that starts them on… Read more »
Pastor Wilson, I very much appreciate the chess illustration, wherein Satan sets us up for sin by lots of moves that don’t appear sinful at first. This is very insightful. I’d be interested if you might ever expound that idea much more fully in its own post, and expound specifically how you see those moves play out in those “early moves” in the game in relation to the varous sins with which we struggle.
” … Christians often need to learn how to repent of their virtues.”
Well, the General and the Manhattan minister are certainly playing the same tune here … and thank God for that.
Keep preaching the one and only Gospel.
I can see how boys today, who are socially rewarded by teachers, etc. for being more sensitive, gentle, etc. can grow up with gentler, more submissive personality traits. And I say this in a completely non-sexual way. Behavioral issues aside, stereotypical alpha male personality is frowned upon in schools these days and I think we are already beginning to see the results in the younger generations.
You are right about schools, and I think it goes beyond that. The media do not present alpha males in an attractive light unless they are making a movie about rescuing hostages or something where raw physical courage is essential. My women friends would probably all list male sensitivity and listening skills as non-negotiable items, and none of us are young! My own dear 97 year old mother would have had quite a different list: Is he physically attractive to me? is he virtuous? can he earn enough to support a family? will he get up and deal with intruders… Read more »
Ye-eah. Thanks for some warnings. And how else do evangelical churches weaken men? Bluntly, the stud bull in the pulpit teaches the rest of the men in the congregation to sit down and shut up. I put it to you in Tuscaloosa that in churches of the Plymouth Brethren type or Jim Rutz’s “Open Church,” which specialize in putting I Cor 14:24, 26, 29-31 into practice–when you get together, every one (not just the preacher and song leader) has something for the whole assembly–men tend to outnumber women. My recollection is that you agreed with the statistic. Ya need overseers… Read more »
Andrew,
I think you are on to something relevant, but it needs to be explained better. (At least to me!)
Well Doug, judging from the comments here it seems your next letter to Tomas needs to clarify what you mean by repenting of virtues. From my perspective this could mean many things. From the Lewis quote it could mean that a person is using their true virtues as a cover up for sin. The woman is sinning in her self-pity but is in denial by appealing to her self sacrifice. But the self-sacrifice is misplaced because it is not what was asked for; in fact in some ways it is unwanted. So self-sacrifice is a virtue. Self-pity is a vice.… Read more »
Catholics are taught that the root cause of all sin is pride. I understand that as it applies to the sins of the spirit (malice, envy, and anger), but I struggle with finding a connection between pride and the sins of the flesh. I don’t mean Gay Pride; take it back to a gay guy sixty years ago who is closeted, ashamed, and afraid that his boss or the neighbors will guess his secret. I understand how pride can make one say, “I don’t care what God says; I make my own rules.” But how does it connect to sexual… Read more »
Well I don’t know if all sins are sins of pride. Though those who say the greatest sin is pride, or the most serious sin, may be correct.
In the case above there may be the pride of other people’s opinions such that he did not want to address this privately with a Christian counsellor/ pastor for what another may think of him. It may just be shame, or a lack of trust. But it could be pride for some?
Or I wonder if it can be the sort of pride that leads to despair, which we are taught is perhaps the most fatal spiritual condition because then you give up. The pride of thinking that you are in a special category of sinfulness that grace can’t touch.
I am reminded of C.S. Lewis commenting on someone being the kind of woman who lived for others—and you could always tell the others by their hunted expression. Can someone help me with this quote. Doug has mentioned this before but not where it was from. I seem to remember something similar where Lewis talked about a woman who had given up her life for her family and bemoaned their lack of appreciation, but Lewis makes the astute comment that what she was doing was not what they wanted. It was what she wanted. I don’t think it is the… Read more »
“She’s the sort of woman who lives for others – you can tell the others by their hunted expression.” It’s from Screwtape. I think it is a difficult balance for wives and mothers to find. In one sense, you’re supposed to put your family ahead of your own needs. Nice people don’t remind their loved ones how often they are doing that. But, for me, resentment is a sign that I’ve gone over the line. If the Snowflake doesn’t thank me for sitting up all night making a 1933 Vogue model dress, it is time to stop making them for… Read more »
Right, she doesn’t have to thank you, but neither should she take it for granted that you HAVE to sit up all night making a dress. I think it’s people taking for granted, having a sense of being owed all the time just because they need, or want, and never mind the cost to anyone else, that irritates. By the way, you’re right about it being a piece of psychobabble. Sometimes what gets called passive-aggressive is simply the appropriate response, provided it’s accompanied by explanation. Anyway, in most cases it is better than aggressive-aggressive.
I agree with you. I think passive aggressive can harm our own souls, but aggressive-aggressive harms other people as well. What I always have to remind myself, when I start going all King Lear in my head (“Sharper than a serpent’s tooth to have a thankless child!”) is that I could have said no, I could have left it on the sewing machine and gone to bed, and that on some level I am enjoying using my sewing skills. So, to blame her for all those decisions is unjust. I once overheard my ex-husband and my daughter discussing which of… Read more »
Why didn’t you just buy a cake and eat it in front of them? :-)
Thanks @Jill Smith Letter 26 A sensible human once said, “If people knew how much ill-feeling Unselfishness occasions, it would not be so often recommended from the pulpit”; and again, “she’s the sort of woman who lives for others — you can always tell the others by their hunted expression”. All this can be begun even in the period of courtship. A little real selfishness on your patient’s part is often of less value in the long run, for securing his soul, than the first beginnings of that elaborate and self-consciousness unselfishness which may one day blossom into the sort… Read more »
One of our first fights when we got married, I was cleaning the oven and hubby wanted me to sit down and be with him, but I just couldn’t. I had to clean and make everything perfect for HIM, because of him. Besides, what would the neighbors think? He said it wasn’t for him at all, that it was all about me and my needs and had nothing to do with him at all. Oh boy, set off a real firestorm, but he was quite right. My husband couldn’t care less about clean ovens or 90% of the things I… Read more »
One of the things that puzzled me when my ex-husband left is that we had never, ever had what could be called an argument, let alone a fight. People liked to come over because they called it an oasis in a turbulent world. But I did nurse secret grievances from time to time. I did things that more assertive women might have found unreasonable, like providing hot towels from the dryer after every shower. It would have been healthier to refuse than to smile at him while thinking vicious thoughts. But where does submission fit into this? Catholics are taught… Read more »
“How can an argument even arise if one party to the marriage is not supposed to challenge authority?” Well, I think there are some very perverse and distorted concepts of submission in the world that have sown a lot of confusion. What some people call “authority,” I just call love. You’re submitting to the love of a husband. People have made the word “authority” all negative, conjuring up visions of punishment, power, fear, and tyrants. Completely forgotten is the whole concept of grace and love. So it’s not like you don’t argue, you just learn to argue respectfully. Today he’ll… Read more »
Not supposed to challenge authority? My senior officers would have my head if I never challenged their authority if I perceived they were stepping into a minefield (literally or figuratively). Part of my responsibility as a subordinate is to honor my authorities by pushing back, correcting, advising, even against their judgment, when necessary to support them and their mission. But they would also have my head if I did so in a way that was disrespectful. I have often offered correctives, suggestions, challenges to my seniors, but always in such a way that never undermines their authority, by 1) offering… Read more »
It might be splitting hairs, but it might be useful to make the distinction between “challenging authority” and “challenging those in authority.” We should challenge those in authority by adding our two cents when we believe something needs to be said, and that can include some pretty direct language.
But their authority itself, should not be challenged.
The bemoaning woman you are thinking of is likely from the great divorce.
Thanks Demo. I found this but it is not the passage or quite the idea I was thinking of “You mean, if I were only a mother. But there is no such thing as being only a mother. You exist as Michael’s mother only because you first exist as God’s creature. That relation is older and closer. No, listen, Pam! He also loves. He also has suffered. He also has waited a long time.” “If He loved me He’d let me see my boy. If He loved me why did He take away Michael from me? I wasn’t going to… Read more »
bdash #202593
https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/duty-obeying-nature.html#comment-202593
As long as men are allowed to be effeminate and call it Godly
Women are allowed to break Titus 2:5 and other women commands and act like men
The church has no real grounds to deny 2 men or 2 women from marrying each other…
lol I have no idea what my comments are doing…
a lot of men who are gay or bi are not exactly effeminate
to be fair though more men are choosing this because it is easier than having to deal with women…