Ann Coulter and the Disease of American Conservatism

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Before I say anything critical, let me start by saying that Ann Coulter has made a lot of good sense over the years. I have read some of her books, and they were generally well-written and researched, and contrast somewhat markedly with the blonde brassiness that does the yelling heads television gigs.Ann Coulter

Having said that, she recently said something theologically atrocious, and it was something that revealed the disease that afflicts contemporary conservatism. Here it is:

“I don’t care if @realDonaldTrump wants to perform abortions in White House after this immigration policy paper. http://bit.ly/1EvT3Ja”

By the way, I do understand that Coulter is anti-abortion, and that this statement was hyperbolic, intended to praise Trump’s immigration stand. It does not represent what she would be willing to do. Of course not. But it does represent what she is willing to say, and what she is willing to say represents the central confusion of American conservatism.

What are we conserving? America or that which makes America worth conserving?

To say something like this is to say, in effect, “I don’t care that we continue to deserve judgment, just so long as we implement a policy which, in my mind, will avert one of those judgments.”

Put another way, oh, how I wish God would govern the world in ways other than the ways He has revealed to us in Scripture. I don’t care if we sow the wind in the White House, I just care that we don’t reap the whirlwind on our borders (Hos. 8:7). I don’t care if we mock God in the White House, just so long as God does not visit us elsewhere with the consequences of mocking Him (Gal. 6:7). I don’t care if we are deserving the wages of sin in the White House, just so long as we don’t have to actually do any dying (Rom. 6:23).

In short, wouldn’t it be grand if secularism were true, and yet we didn’t have to live with the consequences of secularism?

Consider the image of the head and the tail in Deuteronomy.

“The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail. Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee” (Deut. 28:43–45).

The alien in your midst will be ascendant. That sounds like a problem on the border. Uncontrolled immigration will cause the undocumented strangers to rise up very high, and the natives of Israel would sink exceedingly low. The aliens would become wealthy, and the natives become poor. They will lend to the homegrown, and the homegrown will not lend to them. They will become the head and those who used to be the head will become the tail.

And why? All these curses will come upon you, Moses says, because you would not listen to the voice of God. You refused to keep His commandments. And if you ask “how have we failed to keep His commandments?” I would select one of many examples by simply pointing to the recent vote of the Senate to continue to give massive taxpayer dollars to Planned Parenthood, after it was revealed to the world what kind of ghoulish operation Planned Parenthood is. We are that nation. When an operation like that was uncovered, our first decision as a nation was deciding to give them more money. If we don’t give them more money, who would make merchandise of baby livers then?

Of course as Americans we should continue to plead for mercy, but the diseased conservatism I am speaking of thinks that we should swank along in our prosperity as a matter of birthright justice. But if justice were headed our way it would be in the form of a comet the size of Kansas headed for Kansas, one that would leave the lip of a smoking crater in both Maryland and Oregon.

Donald Trump’s ball cap tells us that he wants to make America great again. Cool. On whose terms? For a certain kind of conservative, the desirability of America being great is a given. Of course we should be great — that’s axiomatic. Why? Follow the argument closely here: because we’re us!

I would much prefer that we meet the conditions of being made great again, and that cannot happen apart from a genuine humbling and bone deep repentance. This contrasts sharply with Donald Trump’s biblical tone deafness on the subject of repentant humility. “I think repenting is terrific.”

Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, and He will lift you up. Anything else is seeking out a divine smack down. God opposes the proud, and that would include proud conservatives.

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Kent
7 years ago

Recently read this article: Christian Today reports the business mogul told people gathered at the Family Leadership Summit in Ames, Iowa that he loves God but is unsure if he has ever asked for forgiveness. Trump said, “People are so shocked when they find out I am Protestant. I am Presbyterian. And I go to church and I love God and I love my church.” When Republican pollster Frank Luntz asked him if he had asked God for forgiveness, Trump answered that he was not sure. “I am not sure I have. I just go on and try to do… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

“I don’t care that we continue to deserve judgment, just so long as we
implement a policy which, in my mind, will avert one of those
judgments.”
Averting on of those judgement is sort of how I see the movement to end abortion these days and I don’t mean that we don’t adopt enough kids.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

A nice parsing of the Trump candidacy, a monster created by the system. http://www.socialmatter.net/2015/08/16/trump-is-a-demon-of-the-establishments-design/

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

Pastor Wilson, I have a lot of respect for you and your work; your articles and books have been a blessing and encouragement. But are you making the same mistake as the conservatives you’re addressing? National repentance isn’t on the ballot or making headlines. We’re not voting our way out of this; secularism is embedded in both the permanent government and the Constitution, changing Presidents will not affect this much. Supporting Trump’s immigration policy isn’t about avoiding judgement, it’s about continuing to exist as a people long enough to live a communal life of repentance. It’s a holding action, not… Read more »

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv wrote: Supporting Trump’s immigration policy isn’t about avoiding judgement, it’s about continuing to exist as a people long enough to live a communal life of repentance. It’s a holding action, not a victory. This is an interesting thought. Who are we as a people? Are we Christians, as a people? Aside from desperate attempts at revisionism, we were historically Christian, without question. Today, that is the pressing question. It seems that we may have already become Americans, and perhaps Christians second. Our primary identity seems to be national. Not that there is something inherently wrong with patriotism, but it… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

katecho, please see statistics on the American Hispanic community and abortion, crime, out of wedlock childbirth, STD rates, etc. Also do a little research to see if those communities produce less or more corruption in local government. Are most of the immigrants you know hard workers and pretty conservative? Me too. That’s called selection bias.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

My point was not about social quality or righteous character. My point was about sense of identity. I’m not interested in saying that “our” dirty shirt is a little cleaner than “their” dirty shirt. I’m raising the question of whether there might be a basis for common identity where “we” had not looked for one previously, because “we” see our identity elsewhere, perhaps through a nationalistic lens. For the words in quote marks above, ask what gives those words their distinguishing meaning. It’s not gender, or even race, but most likely nationality. What if that wasn’t what we were supposed… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

Well, that’s the question: do we get to decide how we define ourselves? Bruce Jenner says yes.

Our nation is our extended family. Our fundamental identity is in Christ, but he gives us parents, siblings, spouses, ancestors, descendants, and cousins. We have obligations to love them above and beyond how we are obligated to love strangers.

Job
Job
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

You see, this is the problem with you Southerners. You don’t realize that a nation is a collection of abstract principles united around an army and a bank.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Job

Alas, our ignorance knows no bounds.

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  Job

The sarcasm, it drips!

(:

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

You’ve got to tease that one out very carefully, Ash. Jesus died for strangers.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

He did. But where did he minister first? Among his people, Israel. The gospel breaks down barriers of enmity between people and between peoples, but it doesn’t destroy their distinction or their natural relations to each other.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

We definitely need to get our primary identity right, and in relation to secondary identities. This is what Jesus meant when He said that unless we hate our mother and father, we cannot be His disciple. Jesus put it in those terms for a reason. Very harsh, but also critical. Jesus also asked, “who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” He answered His own question by saying that the one who does God’s will is His brother and sister and mother. In other words, even family identity is subordinate to Christian identity. This overall concept seems to be… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

Compared to whom? Are you suggesting that Romanist nations were historically open-borders, multicultural societies?

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I’m not advocating the lack of national identity, or any sort of pluralistic multiculturalism. I’m also not advocating that we simply compare ourselves to Roman Catholicism, as if it were the standard. However, I think I do see a sense in which Roman Catholics identify as Catholic in a more global/worldwide sense than Protestants do. This may be a reflection of convulsive Protestant history, and our lack of a unifying Pope. In the long term, I do think the Church will have a worldwide identity, in the sense that the Gospel transcends geographic and ethnic boundaries. (This seems different from… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

I’ve had thoughts in that direction as well — but the evidence today suggests nobody’s mature enough for that on a large scale.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Perhaps a few more global financial crises and failed states will mature us, and refine our primary identity.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

My family, my race, my culture and nation, none of those things is my primary identity in an eternal sense so therefore none of those represents anything good or worth preserving. If global elites find my loyalties to those things make me a less efficient worker or consumer or a less dependent subject then I have no legitimate reason to protest their dissolution.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

It’s possible to overstate the case. Our marriages are not eternal either, but they do represent something good and worth preserving. The issue is not Christian identity good, national identity bad. We just need to have our identities properly ordered. I think this is particularly relevant when discussing immigration, because it can expose that our primary identity is actually nationalistic (or even ethnic), rather than with those who are baptized with us in the Triune name of Jesus.

Job
Job
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

Katecho,

I must take issue with this: “They are leaving their home country, which could suggest that they are willing to hold loosely that part of their identity.”

A lot of immigrants are simply colonists who have no interest in giving up their identity.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Job

That’s possible. Which is why I left it as an open question.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

“Who are we as a people?” It’s an important question — one left unexamined far too long. For me the answer is “White Southerner”, a descendant of the Virginia colonists and the later Scotch-Irish settlers of the southern English colonies. Naturally, the answer is different for a lot of other people on this continent. The USA is a multicultural empire holding together several different nations, not all of whom are friendly towards each other. Historically this has only been successful with a strong central government preventing inter-ethnic warfare; it’s not clear we’re going to have that much longer, so anybody… Read more »

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Right. I’m not suggesting that nations will cease. We continue to have national identities. We continue to have many identities. For example, husband, father, brother, golfer, Southerner, blogger. My question has to do with our primary identity. If our primary identity is “White Southerner” then Hispanic immigration would tend to dilute that primary identity. However, if our primary identity is Christ, and if we discern the body of Christ in baptized Hispanic immigrants, then this may not dilute us in our primary identity. We could even find that we are strengthened, particularly if be can be grabbed by that primary… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

I may discern the body of Christ in you and your family and still expect you not to sleep on my couch uninvited. :-)

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

“a strong central government …..it’s not clear we’re going to have that much longer, so anybody (like Trump) who offers hope of delaying it for a few more years should be welcomed.”
YOU said that ?!! You said THAT?!!

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Good observation. Preserving a strong central government doesn’t really sound like a strategy that should be coming from the keyboard of a Southerner. :-)

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

An observation, not a prescription. As far as I can tell, it was a mistake for the South to get in bed with Massachusetts in the first place.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

War’s coming. The longer we have to prepare, the better off we’ll be.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

Abortion rate among non-Hispanic white women is 11 per 1000, among Hispanic women 28 per 1000. Take that into consideration when you weight the value of Roman Catholic identity.

Steve Perry
Steve Perry
7 years ago

Christ re-creates man, places him back into the sanctuary garden where we worship and enjoy His Word and Sacrament. But there is another physical symbol Christ placed back into the garden, and again it is one which acknowledges His transcendence, His Headship, “Christ is the Head of man”. And until the church repents of failing to acknowledge Christ’s Headship in worship, all these things will come upon us. We cause the confusion. We create the culture. Satins greatest strategy for massive casualties, is to attack a sanctuary symbol representing God’s transcendence. God simply says show me in worship. But we… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Travis M. Childers
7 years ago
Reply to  Steve Perry

You could be absolutely correct about head-coverings (and you could be way off base, too…), but do you honestly think that is the chief problem with the church in America today, or with the worship of the church today? Someone might accuse you of straightening your tie as your car careens over a cliff.

Steve Perry
Steve Perry
7 years ago

God has placed a single positive/prohibitive symbol back into the sanctuary that acknowledges His transcendence. This is the first thing Paul teaches about our call to worship. And he was emphatic that the entire church practice it. Created for worship, we are to acknowledge God’s transcendence, hear His Word, and enjoy His sacrament. As it was in the beginning. Yes I do believe this is the single most important problem with the church today. Failing to acknowledge God’s transcendence the way He says to. Symbols matter.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Steve Perry

My wife doesn’t wear a head covering but she feels convicted about this. I suspect that you are right but I’ve never been in a church than honored this instruction.

Steve Perry
Steve Perry
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Dear sister in Christ. Please judge for yourself what teaching is truly of a pharisaical nature. Many will tell you (as Katecho does), that (if the practice is true) you need to display and reach a certain spiritual maturity (as evidenced to him) to be able to actually honor Christ in worship with the wearing of a simple scarf or hat. But you do not! And you never can in true purity and honesty of heart. All of life is maturing in Christ from one day to the next. Christ is our righteousness. And called by Christ, your true and… Read more »

Gay_for_Jesus
Gay_for_Jesus
7 years ago

It’s really too bad the author of this blog wasn’t aborted. The world would be a better place.

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

Rethink this post? Not going to rally anyone to your side. Or, if it does, they’re not likely to be people you actually WANT playing on your team.

Gay_for_Jesus
Gay_for_Jesus
7 years ago

Please don’t have any children!

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

Please don’t adopt any gay-bies.

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

Too late. My grandchildren aren’t quite ready to ignore my advice yet.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
ArwenB
ArwenB
7 years ago

Depends on whether the couples are trafficking the children like that Australian couple did, and how repugnant people find the practice.

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

Both of these adoption stories are nothing more than yet another collision of Thomas/Wooley with Heart of Atlanta. If Elaine Photo out of NM is the future, then CO will win on the bakery and both states will lose on adoption.

At that point, lots of bakeries and church agencies will have to decide which is more faithful to their mission life; shutting down entirely or getting into bed with Caesar?

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago

Well, it’s good to laugh before going to sleep…you oughtta be so pleased… I almost, Almost, ALMOST said, “Is this another Thomas/Wooley thing?” glad I didn’t ‘cuz I forgot HofA :) “will have to decide”…when was it along your legal circle way in life did you think more than at other times that…”this isn’t looking so good for the faith circle”…. “lots of bakeries and church agencies”…everything and everywhere…don’t you kind of feel it… unreal. surreal. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/supreme-court-says-texas-can-reject-confederate-flag-license-plates.html?_r=0 speaking of Trump, of whom I’m trying to choose my points carefully, what did he mean with this, ” ‘Donald Trump, meanwhile, called… Read more »

Job
Job
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

GfJ,
Please consider a bra for your ample man-boobs. Cutting edge research from the Middle East has concluded that gravity does indeed win.

Evan
Evan
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

“It’s really too bad the author of this blog wasn’t aborted. The world would be a better place”

Well crafted my friend; that was a real scorcher.

Gay_for_Jesus
Gay_for_Jesus
7 years ago
Reply to  Evan

Just FYI they hate you

Ben
Ben
7 years ago
Reply to  Gay_for_Jesus

Don’t say you’re gay for Jesus. This makes Jesus angry. You don’t want Jesus angry, do you?

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  Ben

Is the church agreed? Maybe GfJ and many churches think this blog makes Jesus angry :) Maybe GfJ should take the popular LGBT technique of infiltrating rather than castigating in order to win converts… http://www.christiantoday.com/article/hillsong.nycs.gay.couple.say.they.have.always.been.open.and.forthright.about.relationship/61563.htm ” ‘Thankfully we are led by pastors who are grace-filled and committed to continuing to try to discern God’s will on this matter. ‘ He also defended their decision to remain with Hillsong. “If we, as gays, pack up and leave every church we feel less than welcomed in or where we feel spiritual resistance, how will there ever be growth? The flip side of… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

Must be some other Kelly; this one is not on Twitter.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago

Bleary-eyed watching this thread unravel…alongside of that, reading through your Disqus comments to figure out where to pester you next…anyway, ha, sorry about that…I really must start doing the “start/stop” thing as you do when I quote :)

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

I’ll be off the air for a day or two. Two things popped up today which were not remotely on the schedule. Take advantage of my down time to tweak your Qs.

In a non-contrarian way, of course ;).

Gay_for_Jesus
Gay_for_Jesus
7 years ago
Reply to  Ben

Is Jesus like the incredible hulk? I’m pretty gay for Bruce Banner too

Ben
Ben
7 years ago

Meh, conservatives for the most part show no signs of rethinking their unquestioning support of the military industrial complex and the American empire, which they justify by saying that America is exceptional for being, well, America. There’s also the evil drug war which they hold so dear. When the empire collapses, conservatives will be just as much to blame as the progressives, if not more; at least the progressives don’t pretend to care about the free market, rights of association, etc. Conservatives know better, but because we all need constant wars, terror threats, domestic unrest, and other calamities to keep… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

Can’t recall the name of the female reporter (was it something like “Nina Burke?” “Burliegh?”) who said she’d be happy to give Bill Clinton a Lewinski to thank him for keeping abortion legal? Hyperbole R Us? Both Rooks for a queen?

Was it Churchill who defined fanaticism as “redoubling your efforts after you’ve lost sight of your objective?”

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
David Trounce
7 years ago

Alex, this isn’t the place to drop links. Talk.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

? Whuh ? I was just reading of your country (drop link warning: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-04/bishop-says-children-of-gay-couples-next-stolen-generation/6522310) , when all of a sudden this, “Talk” :) Kelly said it all. My quote was succinctly simply being a ditto-head of his observations or a variation on his theme…that it appears “we” don’t exactly know where “we” want to go and “we’re” willing to take any route even more determinedly to get there. Better? I have more to say, but I’m trying to stay out of trouble until I figure out what I’m primarily troubled about in all of this Trump/Isildur talk. But I think… Read more »

David Trounce
7 years ago

No problem. Thanks for the link warning above ;-)

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

C.S. Lewis; “If you don’t know where you are going, any road will take you there.”

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

A few years ago I had a friend die of cancer. He lived for maybe 18 months after the diagnosis. During that whole time he, his family and all the Christian friends around them were believing for full healing. They would thanks God in advance for his healing and recovery. I became more and more alarmed as the day of his death was clearly approaching and he hadn’t so much as had the kind of conversation with his wife or children that I know I would want if I were dying. There seemed to be something missing in the theology… Read more »

Rob Steele
Rob Steele
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Try this. Jonathan Edwards is tough sledding but Piper introduces him as gently as possible and the work, his vision of God’s glory, is absolutely fantastic.

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

You describe an example of “faith in faith” instead of “faith in God”. When God takes the man home, the “victims” blame themselves for not having enough “faith”.

We had an brief conversation about his over at https://dougwils.com/the-church/no-faithy-sensation.htm

David Trounce
7 years ago

I hope I am misinterpreting Doug here but he quotes Deut then says, “Uncontrolled immigration will cause the undocumented strangers to rise up…” Israel’s problem was not it’s relaxed immigration policy. The Lord said that it was their stubborn refusal to listen. Immigration provided a wonderful opportunity for Evangelism. The goal of the gospel is immigration… That the nations would stream in. Harkening to the voice of the Lord includes welcoming the stranger in your gates. All these people coming in to your borders should be seen as a Glorious occasion for sharing the Good News with those you might… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

I think your holiness might be checked if you were to come home and find an extended family of immigrants living in your home. As it is, there is no piece of social engineering dreamed up by atheist oligarchs that is so bizarre and destructive that it won’t be embraced by a large number of sentimental Christian dunces. Catholics warned that when every man was a priest then doctrine would be chaos and at times I’m inclined to agree.

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Seriously, you don’t have immigrants turning up in your homes in the USA – surely? We have a big immigration problem here in Australia. A big problem for the atheists. We keep many of them behind barbed wire fences on otherwise exotic islands. It’s awful. However many Christian churches see immigrating as their opportunity to bless, serve and preach. Some seem concerned that it might lead to a larger socialist state but that’s not a given when individual Christian families take personal responsibility for the strangers in their midst. My problem has never been holiness. I am more of an… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

My point is that if they were in your living room it would be your problem. Right now its someone else’s problem so there’s no reason to let common sense dampen your enthusiasm. You get to morally posture and someone else pays the bills. Pathological altruism is an outgrowth of socialism. If you were just an idealist you wouldn’t bend scripture to fit your ideology. You’re more of a heretic.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

I guess I shouldn’t be to hard on you since I’ve heard something similar in a Doug Wilson sermon. “As the blessings of the Gospel accrue then people will be drawn in.” Or something of that nature. What are these blessings of the gospel and do they have a cash value? They are not streaming in for sound doctrine and great worship services. They are streaming in to go on welfare (which will bankrupt the welfare programs) and for higher wages (which will drive down wages). This all sounds like from each according to his ability to each according to… Read more »

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

There are some good questions in there Barnabas that I think deserve an answer.

I’ll do my best.

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabas, the first thing I would hope for is an explicitly Christian framework for understanding immigration. The protection of American borders or the preservation of the American economy or the American way of life is not the starting place for Christians. If immigrants are streaming in to America for the welfare on offer and America cannot handle the demand, then that is a comment about the ineffectiveness of the welfare scheme – and I agree – such a scheme will collapse. Some have responded by saying we should therefore limit the immigration. I would suggest that the solution would be… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

If your explicitly Christian understanding of scripture comes into conflict with what Christians before you have believed then you are likely interpreting your scripture incorrectly. If your interpretation of scripture (or really your political advocacy based on it) produces lawlessness and chaos then you should begin to doubt your interpretation of scripture. Let’s proceede. You have not given a Christian understanding but rather tried to take instructions to the Israelites from Deuteronomy and to apply them to modern Western nations. Deuteronomy was written right before Israel entered the promised land and slaughtered every man, woman and child they could get… Read more »

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabas, my focus was on the principles found in Deut. The principle being a warm welcome to foreigners. How can we as Christians maintain this biblical principle ahead of nationalistic interests? That’s what I am trying grapple with. I am inclined to push against the idea that immigration is primarily a fiscal, patriotic or ethnic issue for believers.

I will leave the Obama question and the invading Israelite question aside, though I think it is worth remembering that Israel came out of Egypt with a truck load of Egyptians.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

We know that Israel was not overrun by immigrants until they were eventually conquered. Why was that? Israel was an agrarian society based heavily on ownership of land. They were also very clannish. The sojourner would have had no land and no family and would have little option other than working as a servant.

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabas, Israel was never overrun by immigrants. They were overrun by unbelievers.

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

If I may chime in, If their are 1 million Israelis and 2 sojourners, things are fine. If their are 1 million Israelis and 2 Million sojourners then it is no longer Israel, but Sojourner-Land. We see that the Biblical principle presupposes a Biblical people to enforce Biblical civil government. Since raw numbers effect the character of the host country, we should examine what exactly it is that changes a nation as the numbers increase and decrease. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong about deciding who is welcome in your house, there is nothing wrong about deciding who is welcome in… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  timothy

I agree on all counts. To say that tens of millions should be allowed to pour across the border because of instructions regarding a sojourner is like keeping millions of people on welfare for generations because we are to show mercy to the poor. Common sense is a gift from God. We may be very charitable in our personal lives but we temper it with wisdom. Once the government is at work and we can put the cost off on our neighbors or future generations then common sense puts no limits on our generosity. As an aside, a good cure… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  timothy

Timothy,

Could you elaborate on “These genetic differences have profound implications for civilizations and cultures.” ?

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Hi JohnM. I do not know the science, so I will not talk in detail. Like Evolution, Global Cooling/Warming/Change, Keynesian econ vs. Austrian it is one of those topics of import where serious work is being done outside of the news cycle and popular culture that completely upends the accepted model. It is a hot-button topic and the ability to engage in dispassionate discussion is a prerequisite as things can get out of hand quickly. It is also a highly technical (mathematical, statistics, biology, etc) for which I am not qualified to comment. I only observe. Perhaps Barnabas knows more… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  timothy

This might be a good place to start. https://jaymans.wordpress.com/jaymans-race-inheritance-and-iq-f-a-q-f-r-b/
Jayman is black so he can’t be easily dismissed. We should be able to discuss data on its own merits without such a disclaimer but such is the world we live in today.

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Dangit Barnabas!

My bookmarks list is growing without upper-bound because of your links!

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Who said Jayman is black? He identifies himself as Jamaican-American of Black, White, Indian, and Chinese descent. Interestingly, “living the motto “out of many, one people.”.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

You have chosen to pull this one command out of context and apply it to modern nations and to demand that it is too be followed no matter the consequences for the nation in question. Maybe we wouldn’t have a problem if were to apply more of the Torah, not less. Should immigrants be required to convert to Christianity? We would still need to build a wall to make sure no one go past whoever was seeing to that. Trump has brought up the problem if immigrants and crime. This might be solved by following Torah instructions for dealing with… Read more »

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Yes. You did not state it, but it is hidden in plain sight nonetheless. What was God’s covenant with Israel? One aspect of it is that it defined a nation Doesn’t God explicitly promise that Israel will be “somethinged” as a nation? Ergo, we have, hiding in plain sight, the establishment of the nation state by God. I am sorry that I am not fluent enough in Scripture to provide the scriptural evidence. Since the laws of the sojourner followed that basic foundation, we know that the laws of the sojourner presume the defense of the more basic command. My… Read more »

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabas, you are introducing case law examples where I am only trying to establish principles that could govern our thinking on immigration. First things first. What is the biblical basis for accepting or rejecting immigrants? That’s what I am trying to wrestle with.

HAV O'Rama
HAV O'Rama
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

Dave, you are a proper good writer. When a man is spirit filled, and sure of where he’s going, it shows, and you shine like a star. I am a Christian, and just subscribed to dougwils after reading an encouraging article on marriage which I cannot find now. The reason I write, is that I’ve just read a few other articles and feel sick at the racism involved, and then I found your post, and appreciate it. Also I am aussie too, but I’d respond wherever you hailed from. Also you may have some insight on how to put this… Read more »

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

Welcome to the Blog.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

“The reason I write, is that I’ve just read a few other articles and
feel sick at the racism involved, and then I found your post, and
appreciate it.”
Racism is one of those words that seems to mean different things to different usernames…could you define what you mean by it?

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

Gday Hav… thanks for the encouragement. I have no idea how an entire nation might implement a truly biblical immigration policy apart from an accumulation of Christian families putting in to practice God’s desire for strangers on a daily basis.

Australian immigration policy is, in many ways, worse than the that of the USA. Our detention centres are gross.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

Racism isn’t a sin.

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

One definition of racism I find in my Random House Webster’s, and a commonly understood one, is: hatred or intolerance of another race or races.
Not the only possible one. Did you have another definition in mind? Otherwise, yes your racism is a sin.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

As we are told in Ephesians 4:31, malice is sinful, regardless of race. Race only gets brought into it to cloud the issue; “racism” is an attack word, a stick used to beat White people with.

To cite some obvious examples: believing that people of different ancestry have differing abilities is considered racist, and is not sinful; choosing not to do business with people of certain ancestry is considered racist, and is not sinful.

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Yes, sometimes, “racism” is an attack word, a stick used to beat White people with. Now if that’s what you have in mind I suggest rather than saying “racism isn’t a sin” you ought to say “racism isn’t a thing”. I imagine you, and some others commenting here, have been hit with the stick so often you’ve adopted a “Fine, I’m racist. Whatever.” attitude. Am I right about that? Believing that people of different ancestry have differing abilities is considered racist in some circles, and probably is not sinful in itself. It probably is not a belief that one ought… Read more »

Nord357
Nord357
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

However the strangers were required to assimilate. this is something we have neglected.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

OK, BJ and katecho, you guys are working really hard to put a silver lining around this cloud. If you are going to find one it will need to be in some spiritual benefit from suffering because there is no good way to spin the massive immigration levels and what they will do to this country. “Trying to make a better life…” If your job gets outsourced do India or someone steals you car it was because someone was trying to make a better life. We should have no national or ethnic identity? After church this Sunday I should just… Read more »

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Or, they may also end up housing the Ark, joining our choirs or footing the bill Darius-style for our restoration. The problem is not immigration. Nor is it the seedy sinners on the other side of the fence.

The problem is our own sin, including our failure to show the kind of hospitality that imparts the gospel to them.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

Hospitality is what you show to guests, not invaders.

David Trounce
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Not so fast, Ash. I am not sure that you are being invaded, as though at war… but even if that were true, consider Jael in Judges 5:24-27… “Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, most blessed of tent-dwelling women. He asked for water, and she gave him milk; in a bowl fit for nobles she brought him curdled milk. Her hand reached for the tent peg, her right hand for the workman’s hammer. She struck Sisera, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple. At her feet he sank, he fell; there… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  David Trounce

It may indeed come to that. But seeking a peaceful resolution first is still an option.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabas wrote: We should have no national or ethnic identity? I wasn’t suggesting that we retain no national, or ethnic, or family identity. I don’t think Jesus was saying that either when He said that we could not be His disciples unless we hate our mother and our father. I believe that Jesus was speaking in terms of our primary identity in Him. I also wasn’t suggesting that flinging wide the doors of immigration (or amnesty for illegals) was a good idea. I was speaking in regard to the assumption that immigration necessarily means a dilution of our primary identity.… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

I think I’ve seen you comment that the government borrowing massive amounts of money was a problem. Why shouldn’t the government borrow as much as it can to materially improve the lives of people?

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

The government loves to do good with other people’s money. They don’t pay back what they “borrow”. Someone else does that. As such, it is nothing but theft, regardless of the do-goodery intentions. God nowhere says that theft is okay if it “improves the lives of people”.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

I’ll leave aside whether the taxation is theft but they haven’t defaulted on any debts yet. They are paying interest now and presumable will continue to be paid as long as the government exists. Where I was going is that I think you would agree that we have a duty to not saddle our children with debt. If we take from our children, even those not yet born, to give to strangers then we have not done good. If we recognize that we some obligation not to put our children under a burden of debt, shouldn’t we preserve even more… Read more »

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

As a point of clarification, I never said that taxation is theft. I affirm that the civil magistrate has a legitimate (though narrow) role, and that taxation is valid toward that role. What I described as theft was the government mandated debt slavery of others under the guise of doing good today. Regarding default, there are several local governments that have filed for bankruptcy. The federal government has also defaulted on debts in the early stages of our country, but more recently in 1971 the federal government defaulted on its promise to exchange gold for dollars. Holders of US dollars… Read more »

Douglas Quaid
Douglas Quaid
7 years ago

Yeah, I’d love for a Reformed reconstructionist to come riding in on a white horse brandishing unfurled banners of a new Christendom to announce that he is running for president. In the lamentable absence of such a one, all I see is a field of relativistic mush with teeth whitener, and one or two vertebrates standing amongst the mush. Trump is a vertebrate, Cruz acts like one on occasion, as such they are the only two I take seriously.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Douglas Quaid

President wouldn’t be enough; at this point we’d need a for-real Christian dictator cut from the same cloth as Cincinnatus.

katecho
katecho
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I agree with ashv that it is beyond unlikely that any President can turn this ship around at this point. I don’t even think a Christian dictator could do it. But this is primarily because I increasingly find politics to be just too weak. It’s not a powerful enough tool for the job. Unlike McDivitt, this doesn’t mean that I think the ship can’t be turned around. I just don’t believe it will be by way of any top-down political or legislative means. What we need is repentance. Only humility can save us now, and that door is closing. God… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  katecho

I agree that we shouldn’t look for salvation in politics. But when repentance comes, our government will be saved too.

Matt
Matt
7 years ago

Who would have thought Doug Wilson couldn’t take a joke?

(Answer: everyone who is actually paying attention)

Nord357
Nord357
7 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Really??

ob·tuse

əbˈt(y)o͞os,äbˈt(y)o͞os/

adjective

1.

annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

“he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse”

synonyms:stupid, slow-witted, slow, dull-witted, unintelligent, ignorant,simpleminded, witless; insensitive, imperceptive, uncomprehending;

informaldim, dimwitted, dense, dumb, slow on the uptake, halfwitted,brain-dead, moronic, cretinous, thick, dopey, lamebrained, dumb-ass,dead from the neck up, boneheaded, chowderheaded

“he frustrated his teachers by pretending to be obtuse”

I wonder….

Matt
Matt
7 years ago
Reply to  Nord357

Slowness to understand is inevitable when people post gibberish online. Quit trying to be clever and make a point dude.

Tim Paul
Tim Paul
7 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Your above post that DW “couldn’t take a joke,” yes, these are jocular times we breathe with all the body parsing going on and all.

Step up to the microphone and get clear for us here. We can’t handle ambiguities of the self serving kind.

Nord357
Nord357
7 years ago
Reply to  Tim Paul

Thanks Tim,
I wondered for a moment I I was being too subtle.

Don Bryant
Don Bryant
7 years ago

Overreaction. Take a breath!

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

American conservatives are guilty of the sin of Esau, ready to sell their Anglo-American birthright for a 5% GDP increase. We don’t know how this story ends — for all we know, Trump is God’s judgement on the GOP.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Yes!!! Americans are like the children of a self made rich man. They have no idea where the blessings they have came from and how hard their father worked to obtain them. The father would have worked and lived like a miser but the children spend with no thought for tomorrow and will bitterly regret it when its all gone.

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Chamber of Commerce? Wall St? Fortune 500? That shoe fits any of them much better than it fits “American conservatives.”

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

Who did you think runs the Republican party?

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Saw your e-mail; making brief answer then I’m out rest of day. Too soon to tell who’s in charge; the peasants are still marching on the castle with pitchforks and blazing torches. The “establishment” (example: Jeb) are totally befuddled. Not only is the gaffe/faux pas machine not self-destructing, but Trump is gaining strength. I’m not seeing this as a Nixon-Rockefeller contest inside the Rs. Instead, he’s mainly the current tool (weapon?) wielded by the Country Class against the Ruling Class (Codevilla). “We all remember that at the top of the GOP debate, Fox News moderator Bret Baier asked all the… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

“Too soon to tell”? It’s a political party, it’s part of the ruling class; it’s the controlled opposition designed to give folks in flyover country a place to dissipate their grievances without hindering the operation of the government. Anything that damages its credibility and legitimacy is a benefit; the details of who actually occupies the White House in a year and a half don’t matter much in comparison.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago

Yes, and now I’m wondering if there’s something besides a country class and a ruling class…that either I’m in or Trump supporters are in…some strange morphing and overlooking going on in him from both the country and the ruling. For now, more from the country class because of his “in your face” style…but I sense many from the ruling class will find it quite the win for their side if they can get the “country”/”Rs”/”conservatives” to overlook some of the deeper philosophical differences from “tradition” in Trump that are being excused or laughed at…that they can use to their advantage.… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Kelly M. Haggar
7 years ago

This phrase – – “the post-rule-of-law stage of our republic’s decay” – – caught my eye when running traps once back home. It appeared in this Mark S. Krikorian comment at http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/422741/birthright-citizenship-only-opinion-matters : “It’s actually kind of amusing — in a macabre, Goths-approaching-Rome sense — to watch the debate over whether the 14th Amendment does or does not mandate that automatic citizenship be given to children born here to tourists, foreign students, and illegal aliens. Because in this post-rule-of-law stage of our republic’s decay, there’s really only one person in all the land whose opinion matters: Anthony Kennedy. If Justice… Read more »

Mike
Mike
7 years ago

More Christian leaders need to speak up about Trump. Not only on the abortion issue, but on his character in general. He tends to retaliate. I wonder how he’d be favored by Christians if the the right Christian leader spoke out against him, made news, and he fired back. This is the second or third post I’ve seen from you, Doug. Keep it up.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Mike

All it’d take is for another candidate to credibly claim the same or better position on immigration, and Trump’s support would dry up quickly. Why hasn’t that happened, I wonder?

Benjamin Bowman
7 years ago

“wouldn’t it be grand if secularism were true, and yet we didn’t have to live with the consequences of secularism?” Such a great line.

HAV O'Rama
HAV O'Rama
7 years ago

The USA “bought” a whole lot of Mexico, and the rest of the world just assumes that the people who were always there are coming back in. This is happening in Europe, Malaysia, Japan, New Zealand – almost everywhere there is a huge exodus from lands which are suffering. Who among you would want to uproot your life and move to a foreign country? Not many, if any….unless the suffering where you are is unbearable. If you people are Christians, have a quick look over your comments. All of them nearly are an attack on a race, or someone you… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

Per capita GDP in Mexico is very respectable by world standards. The people aren’t starving, they are obese. A simple dollar or two an hour wage difference and certainly a generous welfare state is more than enough to drive migration. No “unbearable suffering” required.

HAV O'Rama
HAV O'Rama
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Obesity would be a deterrent when trying to run across a border don’t you think? There are a lot of problems in both countries however close neighbours in land-locked countries will have relatives etc in many cases, and the poverty felt by a whole lot of Mexicans is well below “first world” standards. All I am saying is, Mexicans and other immigrants are people and they are seeking what they believe will be a better life. I don’t think we can blame anyone for that, and whether or not they use legal channels is a different topic. The way Donald… Read more »

HAV O'Rama
HAV O'Rama
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Thanks Barnabas, that was a terrible joke – I’m proud to see that we (australia) are 6th on the ladder! Maybe one day we’ll beat USA, UK and Mexico….but seriously, obesity is a problem, and I have a theory that many or even most problems that include constant feeding/drinking/smoking/screens are a result of being hardened by sin. The world is a very scary place, several magnitudes more so without the hope that we have with Jesus, so, bar a few people that have personal trainers/money/fame/success (who have further problems) the most of us, to not feel alone and frightened, fill… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  HAV O'Rama

Love of sheep means hatred of wolves.

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

That is true for false doctrine. But the mental feat of picturing an impoverished Central American as a wolf, and myself as a sleek and well-fed American sheep, is beyond me.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  jillybean

My point is merely that “hate” is not bad in itself, and people who use it as a rhetorical device aren’t speaking or thinking in Scriptural categories.

jigawatt
jigawatt
7 years ago

Latest CMP video just dropped.

https://youtu.be/FzMAycMMXp8

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

Trump is not a racist demagogue. The immigrant crime statistics are astounding. http://www.isegoria.net/2015/08/immigrant-crime/

Willis
7 years ago

I think a cancer in American conservationism is an obsession with immigration. News flash for conservatives: Immigration is good for the USA economy. It is not good when people take benefits (well fare etc) but as long as they are illegal and “off the grid”, they are good for the USA economy. And legal immigration is even better for the economy so long as they are not on wellfare. The Dream Act (giving residency to kids going to college) should be a no brainer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio And so, yeah, Trump and Coulter are being… imprudent. We are murdering a million babies… Read more »

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

Americans have less than replacement rate children. That means that we need immigrants or our economy will crash.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

This is the sin of Esau, despising the birthright of one of the most culturally advanced and high-trust civilzations ever built, because hiring cheap foreigners rather than one’s own people is cheaper thus “good for the economy”. Don’t expect your grandchildren to thank you for it. “Better is a dry morsel with quiet than a house full of feasting with strife.”

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Ashv, What are you talking about? My family came from about 20 different countries. The USA had completely open borders up until the middle of the 20th century (the same period that we grew insanely powerful and rich). Do some research. Immigration helps nations. Nations are made up of individuals. So immigration helps the individuals in a nation. My gradkids will thank me for creating a nation that is free and not falling apart economically. And what does it mean “one’s own people”? Because the idea that I share some sort of lineage with everyone currently in the US is… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

“The USA had completely open borders up until the middle of the 20th century” This is patently false.

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabus, other than the Chinese exclusion act (something that in retrospect we all recognize as a racist mistake I think), the US did not have any significant limits on immigration.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Quota_Act.
And no “we all” don’t recognize the act of 1924 as a racist mistake.

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Of 1882. Look that one up, if it’s Chinese exclusion we’re talking about.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Yep, the Chinese have their own country and also Vancouver. Americans don’t owe the Chinese any right to settle here.

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Vancouver certainly welcomed the sackloads of money they brought after Hong Kong reverted to the mainland.

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Nor the Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, Germans, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Russians, French, Italians, Dutch, Irish, etc. So why, single out the Chinese? Then or now?
My own ancestry, mostly English, with some Swiss-German, all goes back to the colonies. Which means nothing, except when we are talking about who shouldn’t have been allowed there are some proud white people who don’t want to go there with me.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

comment image

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

“Nations are made up of individuals” is about as true as “families are made up of individuals” or “human bodies are made up of cells”. Any random aggregation will not do — specifics and relationships matter. I’m reminded of Pastor Wilson’s favorite kid’s joke, “What is the difference between a mailbox and a hippopotamus?” (“You don’t know? Well I’m certainly not going to ask *you* to mail any letters.”)

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Who is your people? I am Irish, English, French, American Indian, German and etc. I live in the most liberal city in the USA. Who are “my people”? The people supporting baby murder? Is that the nation I supposed to protect from the evil Mexicans? Are we just talking about skin color here? Are you staying that we white Americans need to protect our borders from people with a slightly darker shade of skin? Is that what you are getting at? What are the Mexicans bringing that you are so afraid of? I agree that adding people to the US… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

My people are the Virginian and Scotch-Irish settlers of the southern British American colonies. There are many nations on the American continent.

What are Mexicans bringing that I’m “afraid” of? Lack of shared history, culture, and language. Higher crime, corruption, lower social cohesion. Having a government (at least ostensibly) based in popular vote, having more Mexicans and Central Americans here will mean a government more like Mexican and Central American government.

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv,
Not to pick on you…okay, to pick on you – some of what you say about what the Mexicans are bringing is true – but it is also kind of similar to what other colonists said about the Scotch-Irish. And now we got NASCAR, so they may have had a point.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

So, are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing? :)

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Yes :)

JohnM
JohnM
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Or to elaborate, I agree, but possibly not for all the exact same reasons.

Daithi_Dubh
Daithi_Dubh
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv, I wonder if some of those you’re addressing here even understand what you’re talking about: they understand the words, but not the fullness of the meaning. I can’t help thinking that for many moderns/post-moderns, including many in the church, ideas of “home,” “nation,” “my people,” etc., are all too abstract. Maybe you and I are in danger of making an idol out of our people, the people of the South, our shared history, heritage, and culture. Lord knows, I don’t want to be guilty of that, but I would counter to many here that I fear they are at… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Daithi_Dubh

I write not to persuade, but to encourage our friends and tell our opponents and enemies we have not been persuaded.

Daithi_Dubh
Daithi_Dubh
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Keep it up!

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv, so, it sounds like you would prefer that I am not in this nation either. I have Irish ancestry (that came in the mid 20 th century). I have French (that came in the late 19th century). I have German (that came in the early 20th). I have American Indian (that was here before your people got here). But I also have English so… maybe I am your people sort of?

Guess what? We are all humans brother. Sons and daughters of Adam and Eve. Brothers and sisters to Christ.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

Nations are extended families. Like families, DNA isn’t the whole story — but it’s a major component. Like families, the edges are fuzzy, not sharp — but some people are in and others are not. And like families, they get along better when each has their own place to live. (And like families, sometimes the worst conflicts are with people you have a connection with: see Israel and Edom, or Roundheads and Cavaliers.)

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

As Christians, our family is God the Father, Christ our Brother, and every Christian our adopted brother. We are not lackies for local cultures and a good Christian is a stranger (as the Apostle Peter says) in his own country.

We are citizens of heaven not of the USA (or Virginia or whereever).

Ephesians 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.”

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

Was Paul a Roman citizen? Was he a Jew?

timothy
timothy
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Bingo.

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

ashv, Paul was both. But Paul identified as a stranger in his own land. And he said that we lose our stranger status only when we identify as citizens of heaven.

Patriotism is only appropriate when it manifests as a love for a people. It is harmful as soon as it turns to pride. It is harmful if it shows up as a sense of superiority. It also is harmful if it causes one to change their identity from a citizen of heaven to a citizen of your camp.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

“For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.” Still sounds pretty Jewish to me. In fact it almost seems like he has a special attachment to and concern for his own kinsmen “according to the… Read more »

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

Barnabus, and yet Paul hung out with gentiles and did not insist on building walls to keep them out. The idea that Paul would call gentiles rapists and murderers (like Trump) is of course ridiculous. Paul cannot be considered to be anti immigration.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

I agree, and no one in this discussion has claimed otherwise.

However, none of this is an argument against an immediate halt to immigration and deportation of illegal aliens and their children.

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Stopping immigration will bankrupt our nation and make the debt problem that we are currently saddling our grandkids with a million times worse.

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

Nothing can prevent the bankruptcy of the current government. That’s why Trump is a good choice — he has experience with that.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

Its been strange to see some of the more reasonable commenters on here (not you Willis) keep supporting such a radical position. Do you think it would be worth my time to try to explain a holiness spiral?

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Barnabas

I don’t even think it’s that; so many people have accepted the idea that ARE ECONOMY is the most important component of society that the idea of nation and culture as products of generations of hard work just doesn’t connect.

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

I actually haven’t seen many referencing half-witted economic justifications. Its gone more like this. “Deuteronomy” B: The sojourner? OK, what about 10s of millions or more? Doesn’t matter B: What if they aren’t Christians “…..” No response B: But its going have terrible consequences for you neighbors. It might not. B: It already is having consequences and its going to get worse, look at all this crime and economic data. Also it means the end of that constitutional government and free markets you like. Doesn’t matter, Deuteronomy. Besides we already had some crime and stuff here. B: Christians have never… Read more »

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

?? Trump is a huge liberal who gave thousands to democrats? Trump is a RINO who: 1. Was a huge supporter of Clinton in 2008. He gave her $100k. The Clintons received donations from both him and son Donald Trump Jr. on separate occasions in 2002, 2005, 2006 and 2007, according to state and federal disclosure records. Trump said of her as secretary of state, “I think she really works hard and I think she does a good job. I like her,” speaking of Clinton as Secretary of State. 2. Gave to other democrats like Kennedy and Weiner. Trump donated… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

Yes? I think most Trump supporters are aware of this and don’t care. “Republican in name only” isn’t a problem for people who are seeking the destruction of the Republican party.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

So you think Christians who support Trump or are, as Russell Moore, Wildmon, Graham, beginning to give little kudos to Trump without any moral issue warning otherwise…they are doing what? 1) Also seeking the destruction of the Republican party…thinking Trump will make a third party as a warning to the GOP or a chance for other parties to strengthen… 2) Just scared to get a Democrat, and think a Republican at any cost, even Trump, is the lesser of the evils still…and other candidates don’t stand a chance by being too conservative or more conservative than Trump…are they willing to… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

From Trump’s immigration policy paper. 1. A nation without borders is not a nation. There must be a wall across the southern border. 2. A nation without laws is not a nation. Laws passed in accordance with our Constitutional system of government must be enforced. 3. A nation that does not serve its own citizens is not a nation. Any immigration plan must improve jobs, wages and security for all Americans. If none of the other candidates can enthusiastically embrace those points then they have no business governing anything. How can you govern if you don’t understand the purpose and… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

I can only speculate a little about what most Trump supporters think, but here’s some factors I notice: 1) Trump actually acts and speaks in a masculine fashion, rather than like a coddled and managed politician. 2) Politics is theater, presidential races most of all — and Trump is actually good at managing his interactions with the press. 3) Popular support for his immigration platform. My opinions on him match this guy’s pretty well: http://freenortherner.com/2015/07/19/hail-the-donald/ It’s highly unlikely he’ll win, but he’s hated by all the right people, he’s shifting the window of acceptable discourse to the right, and best… Read more »

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

But I like speculation…it can aid in knowing better how to focus or educate or pray or give up…and, beyond that, it also makes the hindsight much more enjoyable. “It’s highly unlikely he’ll win” I think it’s highly likely he’ll win unless there’s some huge scandal comes out on him, but I think the “smaller” scandals known of him have been easily known for how many years, and they haven’t slowed him down in the acceptance he’s getting “, but he’s hated by all the right people,” who would those be in your opinion? “he’s shifting the window of acceptable… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago

Both parties are components of the liberal system. The Democrat party exists to bring forth further chaos and abomination, and the Republican party to absorb any resistance and make it ineffective. Removing the progressives’ cover will remove a great distraction for Christians and other opponents of liberalism.

Alex in Wonderland
Alex in Wonderland
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

but, but, but (and I agree with you…) but, but, but, “but at least he’s being honest about the world as it is instead of the world as we would like it to be – and a lot of folks find that attractive.” all that seems to matter is that he’s politically incorrect…even if he’s still wrong, that makes him alright. This is WILDMON of the AFA (which supposedly stands for all things conservative) saying these things without disclaimer of what you have pointed out. Dangerous abandonment of common sense, indeed. http://www.onenewsnow.com/perspectives/tim-wildmon/2015/08/21/political-correctness-dangerous-abandonment-of-common-sense Apart from other issues, here is a list… Read more »

ashv
ashv
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

The short version is: I don’t want Mexicans here for many of the same reasons I don’t want Yankees here.

Willis
7 years ago
Reply to  ashv

The early church spoke to each other as “strangers” (1 Peter 2:11). What they meant by this was that when you converted to Christianity you quickly ceased to be a person of a country. In that day, nations were defined by the cult they worshiped. Being a Christian Egyptian was almost meaningless. So a Christian in Egypt was a stranger in his own land. And the early Christians adopted this to talk to each other. We were fellow strangers spread throughout the world and connected by faith. I live in a college town with large portions of the population that… Read more »

jillybean
jillybean
7 years ago
Reply to  Willis

I kind of agree with you, but there is a real problem. Having lived in Los Angeles for nearly 30 years, I have seen huge demographic shifts. The Hispanic immigrants I know are decent, hardworking people. But, regardless of our intentions, it is just not possible to watch their children get sick and not treat them at public expense. It is not possible to allow thousands of children to go without schooling. And it is not possible to let hungry children go without food stamps. Even if we say “you may come but no benefits.” we are not going to… Read more »

Barnabas
Barnabas
7 years ago

Its great that you guys discovered in your bibles that you have no nation or people at the exact time that your secular elites told you you werent allowed to have them.

Jason Pearson
Jason Pearson
7 years ago

Doug Wilson would be lucky if he were half the woman Ann Coulter is. Quit your whining and grab a bucket, Doug.