“Our baptist brothers see the problem, and (in my view) want to uproot the tares before it is time. They wind up damaging the wheat. The sacramentalists, I believe, are too careless about letting everything grow together, until eventually, like the Episcopal Church, they think that morning glory is wheat. And why shouldn’t we ordain this morning glory as a bishop? His relationship with the ragweed is a mutually affirming and caring relationship” (Against the Church, p. 35).
Have 'Em Delivered
Write to the Editor
“Lesbyterians”
Doug: You have the intellect, wit and spiritual knowledge to be better than this. Please reconsider the words you use here, again and again, and what those words might do to those Jesus died for, too.
Sara, I probably would not have titled my article as such, but I am curious about your reaction to the title. What do you conceive the title “might do to those Jesus died for”?
“Lesbyterians”! I can’t stop laughing!! And Sara, get over yourself and develop a tiny sense of humour. One can’t help but picture you wearing a little mennonite bonnet and a slight frown.
No to the bonnet. Yes to the frown!
Hi Tim: Thanks for the question. I know gays and lesbians whom I care for deeply. They choose these words — gay and lesbian — to help identify what they believe to be fundamental aspects of their nature. It’s a way of saying, “This is true about me.” (I’d rather not get into a discussion on the “nature” or “true” point at the moment, maybe another time?). When others use those words or epithets for those words (think fag, dyke, homo, etc.) in demeaning ways, it hurts their hearts. It also reinforces stereotypes that Christians — any and all of… Read more »
My hope is that Sara’s instincts are good. Certainly she knows that Christ is compassionate and tender to those who seek Him, and that God doesn’t break a bruised reed. This is all true, and we are to emulate this compassion ourselves. However, we aren’t to be driven by instincts alone. We are to become mature and discerning. We are even called to be shrewd. There are wolves about. Jesus dealt very differently with them, and Sara needs to come to terms with this also. Context is very important. There are clues in the setting that tell us what kind… Read more »
Katecho, great post ! I too have a dear friend who is a lesbian, I think, she doesn’t bring this out in the open, just shop talk, but treat her as any person deserves, with dignity made in the image of God, but if she ever expounded on her lesbian lifestyle, I would gently encourage her to repent.
Thank you for your explanation Sara. I think I understand where you are coming from now. I guess I just find it difficult to think of lesbian as a slur. How else do you describe the group? I understand thinking of fag, homo, dyke, etc. as slurs. But, it seems like you are faulting Doug for using the term lesbian, as if the term itself was a slur. Then again, maybe I haven’t understood you? He seems to be criticizing the increasing presence of lesbian pastors in PCUSA churches.
I’m perfectly happy, even as a pro-gay unbeliever, to see Doug and others use homophobic slurs, for the purely pragmatic reason that every time you do, my side gains converts. Nobody loves bullies, and nobody can top certain evangelicals at portraying yourselves as exactly that.
Man, has anyone read Ezekiel lately? The sharpest knives of the prophets were always kept for those within the Church. / / / Baptists don’t uproot the tares – baptism is for the workers, not for the stuff growing in the field. It’s for the produce already in the silo. Read Paul. Why don’t paedobaptists understand the difference between seed and fruit, cultivation and harvest?
Eric the Red wrote:
This is a good observation, except that the Pharisees were the bullies. Now the ones trying to force compliance with the current zeitgeist are the lesbyterians and other homosexual imperialists. They have the newfound positions of power and influence. Folks like Phil Robertson and mom and pop businesses are the ones being bullied now. It’s not bullying to call out sin for what it is. Naming sin is the offense that will not be tolerated today by the bullies.
When people call me a bully, I feel bullied. Not saying that is the way it actually is, but that’s how it makes me feel.
Katecho writes: “.. then I would invite her to stand right next to the lesbyterians so she can get everything they have coming to them through God’s ordained means and appointed justice” What do you mean? What do they have coming to them? There’s no use threatening people if you’re going to be vague. Whatever it is, I’m sure something like this would be a walk in the park in comparison: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=176_1364022789 Don’t run from sadism … embrace it! Tell us how you’ll dance when Jesus comes and lets the blood fly from our friends, neighbors and family… Read more »
Katecho writes: “they have the newfound positions of power and influence.” The lawsuits you’re referring to are exceedingly rare. Most gay singles and couples simply take their business elsewhere when they discover their business is not wanted. Perhaps if Christian fundamentalists had not spent the last several decades fighting any legal protections for gays in housing, employment, military service and even civil unions, even these isolated incidents would have been rarer than they are. Because I don’t sense you’re capable of much empathy or imagination, let me spell it out for you: pretend YOU are on the receiving end… Read more »
James Bradshaw, and others like Eric the Red, seem to be at war with the concept of man’s accountability, yet they also seem to want to hold me accountable to expectations of some sort, regardless. So am I accountable or not? Are there expectations that pertain to me or not? Go figure. In any case Scripture affirms man’s accountability before God, and that’s what matters at the end of days. As for the kinds of judgments that lesbyterians can expect, there’s no reason to place them in any unique status, their sin aligns very tightly with that of the… Read more »
Katecho, accountability? What are you talking about? I haven’t said anything that even remotely suggests that you owe anyone an accounting for anything. I’m merely pointing out the cause and effect relationship between publicly being nasty to people and turning people off your message. You win more flies with honey than with vinegar, and all that. But if you don’t care about results, then by all means keep pouring on the vinegar.
Accountability is vinegar in Eric the Red’s eyes. The zeitgeist is all about corn syrup now, and also who can play the victim the loudest. I’m reassured to know that I can’t be held accountable for anything in Eric the Red’s system, at least not in any moral sense. All that Eric can say is that honey is more efficient than vinegar for arbitrary goals such as attracting flies. I’ll keep that in mind the next time I’m trying to attract flies. But since I am morally accountable to God, I want to please Him first of all. His… Read more »
Whether Katecho is right on the merits is a different subject entirely than what is the best PR strategy for winning converts. I happen to think he’s also wrong on the merits, but if you make every effort to antagonize and demean people, then you really shouldn’t complain if nobody is listening to what you say on the merits.
Doug, when a wife beater is told by the courts that he can’t beat his wife, I’m sure he feels bullied too. How dare the courts tell him that he can’t hit someone weaker than he is. That doesn’t mean that anyone else will share his opinion about who the victim is. And what your complaints really boil down to is that the law and the culture have shifted to where you can’t beat up on gay people the way you’d like.
Notice, again, how Eric the Red appeals to what is, today. Not to what ought to be. Eric has no access to that. He just has his finger in the air right now. What argument will he use when the culture winds shift back the other direction? He doesn’t have principle, just bandwagon.
ETR, He was pulling your leg, son and you walked right into it. I like Kae’s comment about phariseeism being worse that homosexuality.
Kate, the last post is more insult than actual criticism
@James Bradshaw
Why should someone who identifies himself by his deviant sexual proclivities require special protections in the public square? Can’t he just keep his habits private and behave like a regular person during the day? Demanding special treatment for the sake of perversion is not very endearing. It also leads to a backlash against homosexuals. Just look at Non-western countries like Russia, India, and Uganda.
I didn’t watch your snuff film.
I wish that someone would explain to me that if God, Who includes Jesus as the second person in the trinity, as expressed in the Old Testament, declared that homosexuality was such a heinous sin that it demanded the death penalty, why shouldn’t it be considered just as heinous now and just as deserving as death? If He was willing to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the evil of homosexuality, why should we consider it to be an “acceptable” sin now? Or is it the fact that it, along with adultery, fornication and infanticide have become popular and fashionable, even within the church? … Read more »
No, Job, he can’t because people like you insist on defining him by his “deviant sexual proclivities.” There would be no gay rights movement if gay people hadn’t organized against vicious and unrelenting persecution.
Sorry, this is about to show up as a duplicate post because I made a typo in my ‘nym. No, Job, he can’t because people like you insist on defining him by his “deviant sexual proclivities.” There would be no gay rights movement if gay people hadn’t organized against vicious and unrelenting persecution.
“Why should someone who identifies himself by his deviant sexual proclivities require special protections in the public square” For the same reason that people with “idolatrous” and “heretical” beliefs seek legal protections. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholics, often demonized by many evangelicals, don’t want to be fired from their jobs or otherwise discriminated against because of their beliefs. I don’t blame them. How are we any different? “I didn’t watch your snuff film.” That’s too bad. If you’re going to embrace eternal torture as a moral good (along with Old Testament punishments), I think you should be willing to… Read more »
Katecho, let us suppose that I suffered from some incurable and terminal illness. Suppose you then show up at my door selling snake oil and, when I decline, you say, “But you don’t have anything better.” My response would be that even if I don’t have anything better, that doesn’t change the fact that what you’re selling is snake oil. Let us suppose for sake of argument that everything you say about my world view is true (even though it isn’t, as I’ve demonstrated previously.) All of your comments about my world view, even if true, don’t change the fact… Read more »
James, a hundred years from now, even the most conservative of Christians will be claiming it’s a lie of the devil and a vicious slander that the church was ever anti-gay.
Eric antisodomy ;) Christ will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Out of curiosity, why come to this site and argue with all the unicorn worshipers? You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Are you unstable? Or what is your interest in winning converts to game over when you die? If the wish fulfillment makes us happy what’s your beef?
Eric, baby, no reason to go all battle-axe on me. The “gay people” you reference are more than happy to define themselves by their sexual proclivities. I merely noted that those proclivities are deviant. If the foot fetishists ever organized themselves as an oppressed minority, would you expect me to always be on my tiptoes around them? And don’t think for a minute anyone buys this persecution narrative. Heck, our economic system itself is based on the writings of a man known to have had dozens of homosexual lovers. James, are you defining homosexuality as a belief system now? That’s… Read more »
Tim Mullet asks: “Out of curiosity, why come to this site and argue with all the unicorn worshipers?” Indeed. Excellent question. Something has got his goat, but I think we’ve ruled out several motivations by now. It’s not because Eric the Red thinks there are any expectations or prescriptions for us or for the world. His universe is purposeless. So scratch that. It’s not because Christians are somehow immoral. It’s all just chemistry in motion. So scratch that too. And it’s not because theism is inefficient. It’s far more efficient than atheism, survival rates being what they are by comparison. … Read more »
Job wrote: “The “gay people” you reference are more than happy to define themselves by their sexual proclivities. I merely noted that those proclivities are deviant.” Well stated comment. Eric the Red is trying to put the guilt squeeze on Christians for daring to call sin sinful. It’s vicious. Unfortunately, Eric’s worldview has nothing to say about such behavior. Viciousness is quite natural in the animal world, and we are just animals, in Eric’s narrative, so apparently the Christians are supposed to supply their own foundation for being guilty. Interestingly, this is a strategy that has worked really well against… Read more »
Eric the Red, I’ve asked you this on a prior thread but didn’t receive a response. I’m hoping you can reply to this one. Based on all your posts, I acknowledge your skepticism and frustration with the Christian worldview. However, your utilitarianism doesn’t offer mankind any ultimate hope or purpose. We’re born by chance, we live by chance, but we die with a harsh certainty. What is the purpose of man’s existence if he merely arrives here by purposeless, directionless, blind, random chance forces, where his primary goal is to survive and pass on his genes to his offspring? What rational ground… Read more »
Eric the Red wrote: “Doug, when a wife beater is told by the courts that he can’t beat his wife, I’m sure he feels bullied too. How dare the courts tell him that he can’t hit someone weaker than he is. That doesn’t mean that anyone else will share his opinion about who the victim is. And what your complaints really boil down to is that the law and the culture have shifted to where you can’t beat up on gay people the way you’d like.” Eric the Red has become predictably transparent. Note the telltale use of emotionally loaded… Read more »
Tim, because you’re not content to quietly worship unicorns and leave the rest of us alone. For katecho’s complaining about my comment that Doug wants to beat up on gays, what would life be like for gay people in a country in which Doug were the absolute dictator? Probably not very pleasant. And it’s not just gay stuff. Doug has previously said that he would make the Bible the central part of the American legal system, maybe not in those words but that’s a fair characterization of his position. No businesses open on Sunday, no abortion, no teaching evolution in… Read more »
Dan, I apologize for missing your question on the earlier thread. The short-and-sweet answer is that even if I and everyone I care about only exist for a brief moment of time before vanishing forever, why would I not want that brief moment to be as happy and fulfilling as possible? There’s more to my answer than that but I need to leave for work in a few minutes so I’ll come back later today to elaborate. If one’s world view begins and ends with: If we don’t look out for each other, nobody else is going to either, we’re… Read more »
Eric the Red wrote:
And then he wrote:
In the same breath, no less. Eric, you understand that Christianity is, by divine fiat, an evangelical faith, don’t you? We simply cannot “quietly worship unicorns” and be obedient in our faith practice. Sort of puts the lie to your second statement, doesn’t it?
An emotional resentment toward God is still on the table though. Frustration can be its own motive. He seems to hold conservative Christians in contempt, but without any rational basis for doing so. It must be purely chemical according to his worldview, but pointing this out seems to frustrate him even more. He tears his robe at the suggestion that he is attempting to make us accountable, but it’s quite obvious that he is trying to hold us to some unspoken standard. Though his worldview denies it, his sentences scream out that he thinks we are expected to act and… Read more »
Eric describes a Doug Wilson world with horror, “No businesses open on Sunday, no abortion, no teaching evolution in the schools, no government economic programs, Biblically-defined marriage…”. I grew up in that world for the most part. No need to lock your door at night; knowing your father’s name; schools without shootings or fights or rape, schools with very little bullying(comparatively), taxes low enough that a family of six (mine) could live on Dad’s small income, Sunday dinner at home with guests… Now that I think about it, it was pretty awful.
LOL! thx
Eric,
….No teaching creation in schools, no letting me spend money to help others the way that I see fit, no allowing my business to serve whomever I choose, no letting me not pay for abortions if I think they are murder….yes Eric, right you are, why can’t we all just live and let live the way you all do!!!
“no teaching evolution in the schools”
Eric the Red, you’re thinking too small! I rather think that this would actually be “no government controlled schools, period.”
katecho, We Christians want to believe the best about our opponents, because we are often charitable to a fault. All it takes is for some narrative pusher to say; “Well you really did wrong me here, there, and everywhere;” and Christians start falling over each other, trying to prove their genuineness and win a soul for Christ. Many get suckered into a false narrative, because they take what Mr. Earnest Atheist says at face value. Like this: “James, a hundred years from now, even the most conservative of Christians will be claiming it’s a lie of the devil and… Read more »
Job, I make no claim that prophecy is one of my spiritual gifts, so I may be wrong that 100 years from now churches will deny ever having been anti-gay. However, my basis for making that prediction is that that’s essentially what happened with race, and I’m old enough to have watched it happen. At one time, in the South, evangelical churches were the primary obstacle to racial equality, and they had plenty of Bible verses to quote for why God intended that the races should be separate and the black race should be ruled by the white race. Today,… Read more »
ArwenB, there are non-religious arguments to offer for getting the government out of education. I don’t find them persuasive but I acknowledge their existence. And if you want to have a conversation about whether government schools are, as a utilitarian matter, a good idea or a bad idea, we can have that conversation. It’s when someone says that the government shouldn’t be involved in education because it’s against his religion that my eyes start to roll. Same with government health care. Same with social security. Same with our foreign policy in the Middle East. You are entitled to your religious… Read more »
Eric, I do understand that one can be ethical and altruistic without a religious worldview. One can take the view that if we are all in a lifeboat in perilous stormy seas, our best hope for safety is to care for one another. There are also societies with strong ethical codes that are not theistic. My problem with utilitarianism is that I think it can conflict with individual human freedoms. For example, in a society decimated by AIDS, a government might decide to ban homosexual conduct for the greater good. Or sugary drinks or cigarettes or reading in bed or chocolates for breakfast. How would you balance… Read more »
Melody, I remember the 50s. Some stuff about it was nice, but some of it was pretty awful, and it takes a really selective memory to view them as some sort of good old days. You might ask the blacks who were beaten and lynched for trying to vote, just for starters. Or the wives and children who endured beatings at the hands of their husbands and parents with no options and no sympathy from the legal system. Or the people who lived in tar paper shacks in the woods because they didn’t have the money for real housing, or… Read more »
Eric, do you ever stop and think how coercive your people are? Women have now been completely convinced that they should not be at home raising their children and taking care of their families. They are lazy, non-producers if they do so. They must send their children to the government to be “educated”. They are incapable of doing so themselves, even if they did stay home. The government will choose what that “education” consists of (there is no vote or consent) , but the entire population will pay for it, whether they agree with it or not. If we do… Read more »