Alt-Righty Then

After some commotion and a bit of to-and-froing, the Southern Baptist Convention recently denounced alt-right white supremacy, and did so overwhelmingly. As far as that goes, considered within a narrow compass, no problems. When alt-right racists get poked with any kind of stick, it is difficult for me to summon up any kind of sorrow.

“Racism and white supremacy are, sadly, not extinct but present all over the world in various white supremacist movements, sometimes known as ‘white nationalism’ or ‘alt-right.’ The messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention . . . decry every form of racism, including alt-right white supremacy, as antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ . . . . We denounce and repudiate white supremacy and every form of racial and ethnic hatred as of the devil.”

The full statement can be found here, and almost all of it is very good.

Okay, someone mutters. You are about to say but . . .

But here is the problem. The SBC statement admirably denounces every form of racism in general, but specifically denounces only one kind of racism, the kind that has recently come bubbling to the surface in the alt-right movement. What this does is almost completely ignore where the alt-right movement is deriving its energy. So that pot is coming to a boil. What is the burner underneath that pot? How is it that they are attracting recruits? More about this in a moment.

Here is a thought experiment. Suppose someone introduced another resolution, next time around, identical in theology to this one, and identical in theological expression to this one, but with the only difference being that the specific groups denounced were the Nation of Islam or Black Lives Matter. The same sin is rejected, and for the same reason—because of the denial of what the blood of Jesus Christ was intended to do. God intended to make one new man out of the two. Right?

Does anyone believe that such a resolution would sail through? I am afraid that it would not. There would be an uproar because, while the theology was righteous, there would be legitimate suspicion that there was a surreptitious (political) agenda in the selectivity of the identified villains. And so there would be.

And this is why, when representatives of Jesus Christ are denouncing hateful bigotries, and they take it upon themselves to repudiate what star-bellied sneetches have done to the non-star-bellied sneetches, they must also take care to address any problems that have run the other way. This must all be done at the same time. Otherwise, the church is being played. In the New Testament, the Jews have to love and accept the Gentiles, and the Gentiles also have to love and accept the Jews. Everybody does this, and all at the same time. True communion at the Table of Christ must run in every direction. No one is permitted to come with any grievances in hand. All of us must set all of them down.

The leadership of the church must be seen as insisting on this. If we do not, what happens? Instead of presenting a gospel-oriented “third way,” we are actually being used by various competing factions in the world.

I have noticed for some decades that evangelical Christians are adept at adopting worldly fashions ten years after the world has done adopted them, and then doing it worse. This is true of fashion, music, diets, you name it. It is also true of political fads and fashions. As chronic late adapters, we are often climbing on board just as the carnal overreaction to the carnal stupidity is setting in. The world is about to throw off whatever it was as “dumb and stupid,” while we are all clamoring to be included. “May we join you on board?” we ask the disembarking passengers.

For a generation or so, our society has been busy at creating the preconditions for the rise of the alt-right. We have done this by abandoning the early promises of the civil rights movement (to judge on the basis of content of character only), and by instituting a hard regime of political correctness, hating whitey, affirmative action, not to mention vitriolic denunciations of those “racists” who believe that budgets should balance.

So let me say it again. The alt-right is the bastard child of obsequious political correctness on race. That is where this is coming from. That is the root. That is where the energy is coming from. And so what are we doing in the church? Right when the explosive (and sinful) reaction has started to happen, we say (ten years late), that we need to copy what the world did in order to get us into this mess.

No. No thumb on the scales of racial reconciliation. Equal weights and measures. Even-handedness. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.

I said at the beginning that (considered in isolation) I found it hard to summon up any sorrow over denunciations of the alt-right. But I think it is only fair to say that I believe that one-sided denunciations of one sort of racial animosity is not something that will in any way dismay members of the alt-right. They will welcome it. That kind of thing is their food, their nourishment. And if you don’t want weeds in your garden, then stop fertilizing and watering them.

 

 

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Chris
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Chris

Didn’t Paul call out the Judaizers in Galatians 2 without calling out Gentiles? Not because racism in one direction was more pernicious, but because Judaizers were currently in the ranks of the Galatians. So it is in a denomination with an origin story of white supremacy, denouncing *all* racism (which as been done since 1995) isn’t near enough to the heart. Understanding the historical context of my denomination and its present makeup seems important to understanding this resolution. Denouncing Alt-Right white supremacy is all the more important when there are some flirting with it in our ranks. In our day… Read more »

wtrsims
Member

Do you think that the SBC’s denouncing alt-right philosophy is going to keep the SBC from being called hateful and bigoted and a contributing factor for alt-right philosophy? You just admitted that there’s an alt-right presence in the SBC, so evidently, the argument will go, the SBC is conducive to being in the alt-right no matter the external condemnations and denunciations. It’s not enough to simply resist the world and not divide the Church along racial and ethnic lines; no, loud resolutions must be seconded and passed, groups and individuals must be called out so that the SBC may impress… Read more »

jigawatt
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jigawatt

Chris wrote:

Denouncing Alt-Right white supremacy is all the more important when there are some flirting with it in our ranks.

Please see my comment to Jeff Wright below. https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/alt-righty-then.html#comment-199247 or my twitter version:

Those are genuine, good faith questions, but I have not yet gotten a response from anyone on them.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt
Rebecca
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Rebecca

Love this comment.

Wiprwil
Guest
Wiprwil

Chris, you need to go back and read what Doug wrote. He mentions BLM but he talks about several things in our culture and politics that have produced the Alt Right “boil”, and you seemed to miss them completely. The SBC succumbed to the same political correctness pressure that the media and the left have been pushing on our culture for decades. If the SBC feels they are harboring sinful bigotry, then repent and heal those relationships, be men of courage and denounce all sin of racism and bigotry equally and don’t go for popularity. Oh, I guess you could… Read more »

Tom
Guest

How is it that so many cannot grasp that ‘In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek’ applies not to secular society or nationalistic politics but within the church? This is not brain surgery. “The Jews have to love and accept the Gentiles, and the Gentiles also have to love and accept the Jews,” as Doug puts it, within the Body of Christ, not out there in the world where there exist no regenerate hearts to be appealed to and no indwelling Holy Spirit of God to enable the love required.

MeMe
Guest

Amen.

johnmathews1415
Member

But the Christian, having been regenerated, should be arguing for these truths ‘out there’ should they not?

Katecho
Member

Tom wrote: How is it that so many cannot grasp that ‘In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek’ applies not to secular society or nationalistic politics but within the church? Secular society? I don’t recall Christ ever declaring a truce with secularists. Rather God is calling all men everywhere to repentance, and racial malice is one of those things to be repented of, both inside and outside the Church. Christ didn’t come to obliterate nations, tribes, or families, but to inherit them through the Gospel. As this process unfolds through history, we should expect further repentance from secularism and… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Uncertain if you two disagree.

Tribalism is to disappear within the church (although nations may have cultural distinctives).

The desire of multiculturalism outside of Christ is often misguided. And while there will be globalism under Christ when he returns, the push towards globalism by secularists appears to be a rejection of God’s judgment at Babel. Pentecost reversed Babel in the church. Attempts outside the church to do this seem sinful as seen by God judging man for doing this same thing in the past.

Katecho
Member

bethyada wrote: Uncertain if you two disagree. Perhaps not. Tom seems to be carving out a secular realm that shouldn’t be disturbed by any pronouncements or warnings about God’s expectations. If that’s not the case, then I have misunderstood him. Regarding tribalism, I agree that it will fade and disappear in the history of Christ’s Kingdom (inside and outside the Church), but I don’t expect that secondary tribal identity will just vanish. I believe Christ wants to inherit distinct tribes and tongues and families and nations into His Kingdom. So tribal identity is not necessarily tribalism, just as nationality is… Read more »

Katecho
Member

bethyada wrote: Pentecost reversed Babel in the church. Attempts outside the church to do this seem sinful as seen by God judging man for doing this same thing in the past. Secular attempts at multiculturalism and pluralism are attempts at a counterfeit Pentecost. They usually result in a practical Wallmartization and monoculture, with any diversity of view quickly labeled as “intolerant” and/or dangerous. (See Soviet Russia and China.) In other words, the secular utopian project can’t produce mutual understanding and unity while preserving a diversity of languages (like Pentecost did). Because it is a counterfeit, secularism can only produce unity… Read more »

bethyada
Member

Agree with most or all of what you have written here. The response to secularism is not to abandon Pentecost outside of the Church. Unsure what this means in practice. I certainly don’t object to diverse cultures getting on well with each other and I think that trade should be encouraged. I suspect my objection is to globalism and to forced integration. The secularists see that removing animosity between races is good so they try and force the issue creating the very problem. This is my concern about the civil rights movement. To have equal access and treatment under the… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Agreed concerning forced globalization. International unity requires an identity that transcends nationality and ethnicity. Secularists are still in search of a gospel that can actually change hearts.

bethyada wrote:

Unsure what this means in practice.

I just mean that we continue to proclaim that Christ is not just King of the Church, but King of kings too, with a rod in His hand to reprove the nations. This assertion of sovereignty obligates the political and national sphere as well. There are expectations across the board, not just within the Church.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Upvote

adad0
Member

Back in the day, it seemed like “the religious right” was the perfect straw man for liberals. Everyone thought that there was a religious right, but nobody thought they themselves were in it.

As a rhetorical device, I think the “Alt right” is the new “religious right”.

The real problem of course , remains the “sanctimonious left.” ????
????

MeMe
Guest

You might want to start praying that the alt right is NOT the new religious right, because if that is how it goes down, even I’ll be fighting against them and a whole lot more people are going to flee the church as a whole. There’s already this whole push for “Alt Christianity,” just another cult like descent into total apostasy.

jigawatt
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jigawatt

What some are saying is that the alt-right is infiltrating the SBC, so it warrants specific response. I don’t know where their evidence for this, but we also have Stetzer saying

The alt-right is an evil movement, filled with hate disguised as pride, and needs to be denounced by Christians everywhere. #SBC17
https://twitter.com/edstetzer/status/874808841854009344

with no mention of infiltration.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Of course the Alt-Right is not going to be swayed by this. It is only going to confirm to them that the SBC is more concerned with placating SJWs than pushing against the cultural winds. How courageous! The SBC claims to welcome all just as they are, unless you are white and love the traditions your fathers gave you. Then you best repent and clean your act up before you step in this church. Happy Father’s Day, you bigoted racist. Like I said before, trying to bring leftists into the church and lead them to the Lord by capitulating to… Read more »

Jonathan
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Jonathan

Do believe that your fathers (in the broad sense of the faith, not necessarily your father in particular) bear some responsibility for failing to stand against the cultural wind of racism in the first place? If Black persons hadn’t been killed and beaten until they stopped participating in politics, segregated out of all meaningful areas of state and local power, and then killed and beaten again (even by pastors and state actors) when they tried to get their simple rights back, then there never would have been SJW’s to worry about in the first place. What % of the White… Read more »

Ben
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Ben

If you’re going to talk about how race relations have been negatively affected by the violent crimes perpetrated by whites against blacks decades and even centuries ago, then you also need to be willing to talk about how race relations have been affected by the insanely disproportionate amount of crime committed by blacks against whites *in the present day*.

Kevin Tank Bratcher
Member

‘If you’re going to call out my sin, you’d better call out everyone else’s sin too! None of that removing of logs from eyes business’

Ben Garner
Member

I’m pointing out how one-sided it is to berate whites for something that happened before they were born while ignoring the vile behavior so common in the black community taking place in the present day.

It’s not “my sin” when I wasn’t even born and would not have approved of it had I been alive at the time.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

When do you believe that the criminal justice system stopped treating Black persons dis-proportionally unfairly?

When do you believe the education system first began giving Black persons actual equal opportunity?

When do you believe Black persons were first able to access housing and have the same self-determination about where they could live that White persons could?

When do you believe that Black families first started out on a level playing field in terms of wealth and capital, including social capital, as White families?

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

And to what would you attribute that?

Katecho
Member

Krychek_2 asks: And to what would you attribute that? I’m sure there are many factors, but socialism ranks right up there as an engine of class warfare and disaffection. Socialism provokes envy among the poor of all races. On the socialist plantation, the dependents of all races never have it quite as well off as their masters. The regulators of the cycle of dependency ensure that this relationship continues. The socialist plantation is a big farm, after all. The lower class is harvested for its ability to manipulate the guilt and gullibility of the upper classes. Socialism contributes to a… Read more »

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Oh right, that explains why there’s so much crime in Sweden and Japan.

Cher
Guest
Cher

Careful, there. Those are two very racially homogeneous countries. You’re starting to lean alt-right!

And while Japan is somewhat socialist, the culture there is very different. Hard work is praised to the extreme, and it’s shameful to live on the dole. Also, people are healthier and there’s much less obesity. And they don’t run to the doctor every time they sneeze. So their safety nets aren’t stressed nearly as much as ours.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Canada has a racially diverse population with generous safety nets and lower crime rates than the U.S.

CHer
Guest
CHer

Western Euroopean + 15% Asian is totally differen than the U.S.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

But again, Katecho’s claim is that the problem is socialism, not socialism plus different racial breakdowns. Are you claiming there are different socialisms for different racial groups?

Katecho
Member

Krychek_2 wrote:

But again, Katecho’s claim is that the problem is socialism, not socialism plus different racial breakdowns.

But again, what I actually said was that “I’m sure there are many factors, but socialism ranks right up there as an engine of class warfare and disaffection.”

Krychek_2 just ignored that part.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think Katecho may be arguing that, while all socialism is in his view pernicious, it is especially harmful to a permanent underclass. It is more likely to take the form of direct welfare payments as opposed to benefits such as national health insurance.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think the difference is the absence of a permanent underclass. Canada does take a lot of immigrants from non-prosperous Asian nations such as the Philippines and Pakistan. It also takes a lot from the Caribbean. I think that immigrants who choose Canada over the U.S. may be more likely to assimilate.

Cher
Guest
Cher

In Canada, about the worst thing that happens is wealthy Chinese come in bid real estate prices to the moon in Vancouver. In the U.S., places that were once lovely tourist spots have turned into this:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/several-people-hurt-myrtle-beach-102024136.html

The demographics aren’t even remotely comparable.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

But Katecho’s claim was that socialism is the problem. Not socialism pus racial homogenaity. And yes, Japan is a different culture, but again, his claim was that the problem is socialism, not socialism plus cultural differences. If he wants to amend his argument, fine, but as of now he hasn’t.

Katecho
Member

Krychek_2 wrote:

But Katecho’s claim was that socialism is the problem. Not socialism pus racial homogenaity. … If he wants to amend his argument, fine, but as of now he hasn’t.

What I actually said was that “I’m sure there are many factors, but socialism ranks right up there as an engine of class warfare and disaffection.”

I see Krychek_2 just ignored that part.

Ben Garner
Member

The difference is that those have historically been ethno-states (though Sweden has moved toward diversity in the past few decades), and therefore their socialistic policies can be thought of in terms of “looking after our own.” What we have in the U.S. is a very clear transfer of wealth from one population (whites) to other, less intelligent, less productive, and less “western” populations such as blacks and hispanics. In our case, there is no element of tribal solidarity, because of course such a thing is verboten for whites. Not that I’m defending socialism, but there are examples of it working… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Besides your clear racism, the idea that you think American history has consisted of any sort of “transfer of wealth” from Whites to Blacks is simply ignorant.

Cher
Guest
Cher

Blacks make up 13.2% of the population. 33% of the people who receive food stamps are black. They also receive ab out 32% of SSI payments as of 1998 (apparently that’s no longer tracked…) Unlike other Social Security programs, SSI is a pure welfare program–you don’t pay anything into it to receive benefits.

So yes there’s a transfer of wealth, and you’re the ignorant, brainwashed one.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Food stamps do not produce wealth for Black people. The only transfer of wealth involved in food stamps is from taxpayers to food producers and retailers, the majority of whom are White. Food is eaten and does not remain as wealth. The fact that that many Black people remain eligible for food stamps is quite obvious evidence that wealth is not being transferred to them. SSI payments are also extremely unlikely to produce wealth. The small amounts given per month nearly guarantee that the large majority of the money will be spent, not saved. If you want to look at… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: Food stamps do not produce wealth for Black people. The only transfer of wealth involved in food stamps is from taxpayers to food producers and retailers, the majority of whom are White. Food is eaten and does not remain as wealth. The fact that that many Black people remain eligible for food stamps is quite obvious evidence that wealth is not being transferred to them. So what Jonathan is saying is that the socialist system is just farming the poor black people, and trapping them in a system where others are taxed to enrich government-selected food producers? That… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

If the only point is to say that Welfare as designed does not lift people out of poverty, I agree.

I would also go further and state that the prominent policies of both parties have done extremely little to lift Black people out of poverty. Nor are they particularly intended too. There are indeed people who have that desire in both parties, but they a) get outweighed by the people/money with other objectives and b) rarely know or care enough about that objective to do it right.

Cher
Guest
Cher

No, you don’t get to just make up definitions to fit your agenda. A wealth transfer is defined as “Redistribution of income and redistribution of wealth are respectively the transfer of income and of wealth (including physical property) from some individuals to others by means of a social mechanism such as taxation, charity, welfare, public services, land reform, monetary policies, confiscation, divorce or tort law.” Food stamps have a cash value on the street. They’re certainly a type of wealth transfer as are SSI payments and many other Federal, state and local programs. The “small amounts” part is both relative… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I’m not changing definitions. Wealth is the accumulation of resources, not the flow. If you get food stamps each month, and they are immediately spent and the money given back to food producers, then no wealth has been transferred to you. A family’s wealth is measured by the resources it has accumulated, not by how much it has earned in the past. And if you want to use as broad a definition for income redistribution as you are trying to use, then EVERY government action involving the use of money is a “redistribution of income”. And Black people are generally… Read more »

CHer
Guest
CHer

What insult? This? “No offense, but I hope you don’t work in the financial or economic space. Your understanding of these concepts is severely lacking.”

If you’re so weak, needy and thin-skinned to consider that an insult, you should probably get offline and do some real work.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

But Blacks and Hispanics are part of “our own” and the practical problem is people like you who see them instead as “others”. Plus, as Jonathan points out below, the idea that there has been any kind of wealth transfer from whites to blacks is just silly. How many wealthy Southern whites owe their family wealth at least in part to the free labor they got from African slaves?

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

It shocks me still that despite the near-worship of a system whose very name emphasizes how important capital is, many people still wish to believe that 200+ years of opportunity to build up your capital at the expense of others somehow doesn’t continue to have ramifications for generations.

Katecho
Member

Krychek_2 wrote: Oh right, that explains why there’s so much crime in Sweden and Japan. I see Krychek_2 chose to ignore the very first sentence of my response, where I said there were many factors. Sweden is the darling of socialists (just like Venezuela used to be). Unfortunately, Krychek_2 seems to be channeling Bernie Sanders, with about the same level of misplaced envy. Sweden was once the fourth largest global economy in the 70s, but fell to 14th as a result of their big-government, socialist experimentation. In less than two decades Sweden had witnessed the result and was already plotting… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

First off, Katecho, I’m certain that Sweden was never the fourth-largest global economy. Pretty sure you’ve confused yourself there. Second of all, what is the “good” that you believe is measured by the amount of monetization that happens in a society? To a large degree, the economy is increased by monetizing things that previously were not monetized. Bottled water is a multibillion dollar industry. Childcare is a multibillion dollar industry. Paying other people to make your food for you is a multibillion dollar industry. The more money you shell out for all those above things as well as cell phones… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: So why do you prioritize money as a measure of “good” above all those things? The Left seems to think that socialism and big government are the cure for all things economic (see Hugo Chavez and Bernie Sanders, for example). I was simply providing a metric to show the opposite trend. Other metrics could be used as well. Things may appear good during the money party days, but history is littered with socialist failures. As was pointed out, Sweden has declined through its socialist experimentation, and they are now trying to reign socialism back before it ruins them.… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

” As was pointed out, Sweden has declined through its socialist experimentation” Again, I’m not seeing where you pointed that out. Being able to monetize more things is not a measure of good. A country that incentives its women to work through pregnancy and early childhood will have a higher GDP, but it won’t be a better country. A country that encourages you to pay expensive childcare rather than staying home and raising your own kids will have higher GDP, but it won’t be a better country. A country that encourages you to buy pre-made food rather than cooking (or… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“Venezuela did have a difficult rise coming out of its colonial days, but, like the U.S., it accomplished its strongest and most stable political and economic environment under free market capitalism. Venezuela was at its peak of economic development in the 50s, but in its first democratic experiment (after a coup in 1958), Venezuela elected an ex-communist. Betancourt fully nationalized their oil production to start handouts like “free” government education, subsidized gas, healthcare, etc. Socialism has poisoned everything since.” That recap of Venezuelan history is mostly nonsensical. Yes, they had large growth in the 1950s, but that was partially on… Read more »

Ben
Guest
Ben

A stronger predisposition toward crime and violence. What else could it be? Do you think this phenomenon is only seen in America? Any country in which you have any kind of black-white integration, the same statistics apply. The average black IQ is 85, which closely approximates the average IQ of criminals.

This really isn’t rocket science.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Oh, I can think of a dozen other things it *could* be, but let’s run with your theory and see where it takes us. There is a direct correlation between IQ and childhood nutrition, prenatal care, and family income. Simply put, children from well to do families of all races have higher IQs than children from poor families. So the apples to apples comparison is not blacks to whites, but blacks and whites of similar socio-economic backgrounds. And when you factor that in, there is no significant statistical difference in IQ scores between blacks and whites. So if the issue… Read more »

lndighost
Member

I agree that innate intelligence is not linked to skin colour. How do you think we should ‘try fixing poverty’?
And how does it help poor children if we don’t put drug-addict fathers in jail? I can see a case for the notion that a home with a druggie dad in it is not made more stable by his being there. Your magic bullet is a puzzle to me.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Assuming that the drug addiction is the main problem and that he or she would otherwise be a functioning parent, I think it is preferable to offer diversion, detox, and short, intensive no-frills rehab, followed by continuing rehabilitation in the community. The druggie is on a short leash in that one failed drug test can send him to jail, as can dropping out of his rehab program. This way, he can continue working (or be trained in work skills) and he has a huge incentive not to re-offend. It is also much cheaper to treat someone in day rehab than… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I am proudly Presbyterian and Reformed. My fathers in the faith, from Calvin and Knox down to Machen, Hodge, and Warfield, have all stood against the secular cultural winds. I know leftists like you want to dismiss them as bigots, but they are men eminently worth of admiration and respect. Had our culture and the church listened and followed them, rather than the gospel of social salvation, the problems are having today with race would have been largely avoided. I juts pray that the SBC won’t make the same mistake. If they do, they will be the next edition of… Read more »

GKC
Guest
GKC

I don’t know about your Presbyterian fathers, but you come across as a bigoted, racist apologist for the violence perpetrated on generations of black citizens. Instead of casting stones at others, you should repent.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Happily. I will never see myself as above sin and fallibility. God’s grace won’t allow it. Just point to my sin and I will. Unless, that is, I have only “come across” as something, and not actually committed a sin.

Or does the bible force us to repent based on someone’s feelings, and not God’s Law.?

adad0
Member

Matthew 18:15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Poor form GKC. Very poor form. :-I On the… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

Actually, “taking it to the church” is exactly what several SBC members did with their concerns about the Alt right. They were “won over.” The resolution was passed. So,all those who are objecting are actually just engaging in gossip. That’s actually called “poor form.”

adad0
Member

So……did the Sbc take their issues to individual “Alt. Right” persons, before going public at a convention?
Who were the individual Alt righters?

Finally I don’t know that I have much of an option on the SBC or the alt. Right.
Kilden seems like a decent guy, who I don’t think is in any need of gratuitous aspersions being cast on him.
That’s kind of the same thing I think about you as well Memi!
????

GKC
Guest
GKC

Exactly how is one supposed to do that in a public forum? Whose church do you suggest I bring him before? But at least we agree on the needed a rebuke. Perhaps you could provide the Durden fellow with some scriptures to help him, too.

My name is Gregory Kristopher Carlson, but you can call me Greg.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Please point to what it is I have said that needs rebuked.

adad0
Member

So………..how does Kilden treat other ethnic groups and people again?
And what ethnic group is kilden in anyway?

It’s poor form to put unsolicited rebuke before any known offense.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Upvote for good Scriptural justification.

Another for good use of humor.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Is it possible that the secular winds might sometimes blow in the direction of justice, while the church resists–for reasons it considers biblical, perhaps, but aren’t? I don’t know who Machen et al are, but what did they propose regarding racial justice which would have prevented our current problems?

Tom
Guest

I’m not sure how the specter of slavery became the focal point of the debate about the morality of identifying with the Alt-Right, either at the SBC or in the comments here, but to me it’s mostly a red herring. The Alt-Right is an ad hoc, loosely-knit, largely leaderless coalition representing numerous often-disparate interests, not by any means a monolithic movement. When the Alt-Right became a “thing”, it was primarily responding to the Obama administration’s tone-deafness to Islamic terrorism stateside and its obvious determination to enable legal and illegal immigration at a rate far too great for any sort of… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

You do realizes that the number of legal and illegal immigrants both decreased significantly during the Obama administration?

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

You do realizes that the number of legal and illegal immigrants both decreased significantly during the Obama administration?

I’ve learned never to trust Jonathan with statistics. He is often far more partisan than he is willing to admit.

Illegal immigrants living in the U.S. decreased less than 3% under Obama. The number stayed essentially the same at an estimated 11.1 million. This is in spite of the fact that Obama oversaw the harshest immigration enforcement regime in U.S. history. He even won the title “deporter-in-chief” from the National Council of La Raza.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Katecho, you are casting false aspersions on my character. You have absolutely zero evidence that I have ever posted false statistical claims. In fact, up above in this conversation I have just corrected you in a clearly false statistical claim you made. I am sorry if I was unclear in this instance. I was saying that the number of illegal immigrants coming into the country (and legal immigrants, for that matter) decreased significantly. My comment was in response to the person who claimed the Alt-Right was a reaction to “obvious determination to enable legal and illegal immigration at a rate… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Obama deported more people than any other president. ” How many people have been deported under Obama? President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the “Deporter in Chief.” Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who “self-deported” or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP). How does he compare to other presidents? According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president’s… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Yep, and fewer illegal immigrants came into the country per year during Obama’s term than for any of the four presidents before him (three of whom were Republicans), SUBSTANTIALLY fewer. To the point where more illegal immigrants were kicked out of the country or left on their own than came in while he was president.

The idea that increased immigration under Obama was the reason for the rise of the Alt-Right is based on a lie.

John
Member

This seems to be a reasonably non biased article. Looks like whether you like or dislike Obama/Bush on deportation and return there are definitions and methods of reporting illegals that both sides of the isle will find distasteful. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/?utm_term=.ab4a4d3c9055

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Thank you, that is very clear. Not so clear that I could wrap it up in twenty words, but I know more than I knew before!

John
Member

For you anything. I’m out of here for at least quite a while. This site is starting to remind me of Facebook political pages. Too toxic. I find myself behaving and commenting in ways that I don’t consider to be Christian. Cap rarely posts and it seems I find solace in reading Adad and you. Miss BJ. He always seemed to be able to quote scripture that cut to the heart of the matter. Adios!

Jeff Wright
Guest

So here’s the thing (as one of the messengers who voted in favor of that resolution): There is an issue of moral responsibility that I don’t think is being considered here. I don’t think there are very many at all, either inside or outside the SBC, who are suspicious that members of the SBC are too friendly with – or in bed with – Black Lives Matter, the Nation of Islam, or Antifa. It’s more pressing for the SBC, considering some of the high-profile alt-righters are members of SBC churches apparently, to be clear on this specific point. If I… Read more »

johnmathews1415
Member

It is possible to be a high profile racist and member of an SBC church? Are churches not required to initiate church discipline against these individuals leading to either repentance or expulsion?

Tom
Guest

White nationalism is not identical with white supremacy, nor is white nationalism racism. White nationalism is also not unbiblical, since it was God who created the nations in the first place and God who brings them back together in the last chapter of Revelation. There are certainly white supremacists who consider themselves Alt-Right, but their numbers are insignificant. From my discussions with them, most Alt-Righters support all nationalisms and defend “the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration”. In short, they are not remotely comparable to Black Lives Matter or the Nation of… Read more »

Jeff Wright
Guest

Friend, saying white supremacists aren’t numerically significant in the alt-right movement is disingenuous at best. I’m not trying, however, to make a moral equivalence argument between BLM, NoI, and Antifa and the alt-right, only using them as comparisons since they are groups engaged, in some way, in identity politics.

Tom
Guest

Jeff, as someone who has watched the movement closely for well over a year, I have to double down on that one: white supremacists aren’t numerically significant in the Alt-Right. In fact, I’d argue the Alt-Right currently has more civic nationalists than white supremacists, and even those it has are rarely scarier or less reasonable than Richard Spencer, who is truly not much of a bogeyman. And if you’d like to make a Christian case against identity politics out there in the world (not in the Church, of course), by all means have at it. But I can see no… Read more »

Jeff Wright
Guest

I’ve been trying to pay attention as well and perhaps just haven’t as well as you. Having said that, I think that while you are perhaps right about the percentages of nationalists vs supremacists I still disagree – observationally – that the supremacists aren’t numerically substantial. I’d also point out that, whatever their numbers are, they are good at getting attention. So the percentage doesn’t pull me because I think the loud, potentially-in-the-minority supremacists are worthy of denunciation and I’ll go so far as to say I think the resolution did a good job maintaining that qualification. I’m sure you… Read more »

Tom
Guest

I agree that Richard Spencer and his (very small) gathering Sieg Heil-ing for the cameras didn’t help, but it’s clear the journalists there were very much seeing what they wanted to see.

I did notice the wording of the final resolution had changed for the better. The original proposal was much worse. Thanks for an unheated, reasonable discussion, Jeff.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

To equate “White” with the Biblical concept of “nation” is ridiculous. Whatever a “nation” is, either it encompasses multiracial America, or it doesn’t encompass universal Whiteness. To claim that you can form a nation out of Italians and Serbs and Germans and Frenchmen and Spaniards and Portuguese and Irishmen and Englishmen and Swedes and Russians and the Swiss, but that Jews and Egyptians and Syrians and 80% Spaniards from south of the border don’t belong, just doesn’t follow from anything Biblical. And I don’t see anywhere in the New Testament where the quite mixed nations of the Roman Empire are… Read more »

Tom
Guest

I’m not saying there’s any “call” for racial boundaries. That will be decided one way or another by the great movements of history. What I’m saying is that church governing bodies have no business making official pronouncements on the politics of their neighbours when those politics are not self-evidently immoral. As Paul put it, “What have I to do with judging those who are outside?” As for Christian individuals, if you don’t like the Alt-Right, by all means vote for the globalists.

But I think you’re likely to regret that one down the road.

Kevin Tank Bratcher
Member

You said above: “the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration” That and the “God created different cultures and nations as a good thing” (which is to ignore the curse involved in driving everyone apart at Babel) are just shades of cultural supremacy. Calling it “nations” presumes a certain time frame and definition, such as “Back when America was European immigrants”. America as a nation has progressively included more and more nationalities, because America’s identity has been as a place where anyone from anywhere can come, and work, and succeed. Ironically the Left… Read more »

Ben Garner
Member

The word “nation” comes from the latin word for “birth.” It pertains to natural social delineations based on shared ancestry. The idea of a “proposition nation” is simply incoherent, for implicit in the name is a redefinition of the word “nation.” And who do we think we are to just redefine the concept? Looking at it in purely practical terms, the “proposition nation” experiment has failed, as there are many, many people who reject and are even hostile to the types of enlightenment ideas that were the foundation of this country. And surprise, surprise, race is a pretty solid predictor… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I don’t think the categories line up as neatly as you think. Most of the opposition that I have ever heard expressed to the Enlightenment ideals on which this nation was founded has come from some people on the Christian right who would have much preferred to see it established as a Biblical republic. I haven’t heard people from racial minorities complain that, in the eyes of the federal government, all religious beliefs stand on equal footing, or that synagogues and mosques are allowed to flourish alongside Christian churches.

Tom
Guest

Further, the argument most on the Alt-Right are making is not that multi-ethnic nations are against the will of God, it’s that they self-evidently do not cohere. The argument is practical, not spiritual.

GKC
Guest
GKC

Tom, you are just plain wrong. White nationalism in theory and practice is racism. You need to brush up on your history.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Is Jewish Nationalism racist? Black? Arab?

Is you apply this criticism consistently, across all races, you have just labeled most of the world as racist.

If this only applies to White, that comes across as rather, well, racist.

bethyada
Member

Having talked to many people from various countries, much of the world is tribalist. And many of them confess to their own people being more racist than the West.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Do they view that as a good thing or a bad thing?

bethyada
Member

Mostly funny.

Probably negative on the whole, but depends on the degree of tribalism? Plus, they have some exposure to Western views which may dampen enthusiasm for racial preferences. They don’t necessarily to object to preferences for citizens (eg university entrance) and I wonder if some approve of preferences for their ingroup (eg. race).

GKC
Guest
GKC

Of course it is. What’s your point? Two wrongs make a right?

pepe
Guest
pepe

Wanting to preserve your people and culture is wrong? Sacrificing your future generations to look “progressive” in the eyes of a global elite, who sees you as less than human no matter what, makes you righteous?

I cannot accept that. If family is important, if nation is important, why isn’t ethnos important? Seems awfully arbitrary, almost as if it was something made up by communist academics less than a century ago and imposed on the American people against their will…

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I’m not sure what you mean by sacrificing future generations and losing your culture. Unless your children grow up and marry people exactly like their parents, they are probably going to form a meshed culture with their spouses. Anglo-Canadians marry French Canadians, and join the best (or worst) of their cultural traditions. Poles marry Italians. Is this something we see as a tragedy? If your daughter marries an Asian who becomes a beloved son-in-law, how is this loss of a family and a culture?

bethyada
Member

Are you responding to me or Kilgore?

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Just checking for consistency.

Do you consistently post of Jewish or Black or Japanese boards and chastise them for them their racism? Or do you only hold your disapproval for white people.

Katecho
Member

As Christians, white nationalism is silly, given our greater identity in Christ.

However, apart from Christ, white nationalism is no more (or less) racist than the NAACP, or the National Black Child Development Institute, or the National Association of Black Accountants, or the Miss Black USA competition. If we replaced the word “Black” with the word “White” in each of those organizations, what SJW would stand for it?

So does GKC think these organizations, exclusively for blacks, should get a pass, in theory, or in practice? Is there not a double-standard at work somewhere in our culture?

GKC
Guest
GKC

Our local NAACP chapter president is white. What’s up with that?

Katecho
Member

GKC wrote:

Our local NAACP chapter president is white. What’s up with that?

Perhaps he/she is black on the inside, like Rachel Dolezal? In any case, GKC didn’t answer my question. What’s up with that?

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Was it racist for the Hellenists to make a complaint against the Hebrews when they were being neglected in the daily distribution of food? To note that there is a certain lack, one that has been drawn across racial lines, and work to address it is not racist. Depending on the situation and how the work is done, it might be ineffective. But unless they are arguing for superiority or separatism in their aims, they are no more racist than a handicapped rights group is discriminatory, or a women’s group is sexist. There are few churches which do not have… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

To note that there is a certain lack, one that has been drawn across racial lines, and work to address it is not racist.

So Jonathan thinks the Miss Black USA contest exists because there was a lack of what? Are beautiful black people being excluded from regular pageants? If he can justify excluding other races from a beauty pageant, what can’t he justify?

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: But unless they are arguing for superiority or separatism in their aims, they are no more racist than a handicapped rights group is discriminatory, or a women’s group is sexist. So if someone wanted to set up a Miss White USA pageant, and did so without arguing for superiority, Jonathan thinks it would be no more racist than a Miss Black USA pageant? It would be interesting to watch Jonathan try to sell that argument to the SJWs. Doesn’t a Miss Black USA pageant involve excluding non-blacks, by definition? If so, it would seem to fail Jonathan’s “separatism”… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I understand the reasons, but I think it is a very bad idea. Even the Historically Black Colleges are open to people of all races.

But I think beauty pageants are a horrible idea period. The idea is to exhibit horses and dogs, not daughters.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Amen. I certainly wouldn’t mind if the Miss Black USA pageant went away, along with all pageants.

As far as I can tell, the “Miss Black USA contest” is barely even a thing anyway. It’s a scholarship contest run by an NGO that’s so low-scale they aren’t even able to hold a pageant every year. I have no idea why they exist and I doubt Katecho does either, but my guess that it’s more an avenue for funding the scholarships than a desire to practice any sort of Black separatism.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

This argument is like the old joke about why is there a Father’s Day and a Mother’s Day but no children’s day, to which the answer is that every day is children’s day. In this country, whites have most of the wealth and power, so there is no need for a National Association for the Advancement of White People or a National Association of White Accountants. The people who need such groups are the people who are still mostly on the outside looking in. Katecho, your argument is completely tone-deaf to what life is like for people who aren’t part… Read more »

lagavulin
Guest
lagavulin

non sequitur…conclusion does not necessarily follow statements…too big of a leap.

Nathan Smith
Member

I agree. And while I also agree with the general sentiments of Pastor Wilson above, I differ in that, like you, I don’t think anyone is accusing the SBC of being closely associated with these other hate groups (BLM or the nation of Islam). They also didn’t (to my knowledge) adopt a resolution denouncing the hatred of ISIS either. And so I disagree with Pastor Wilson’s statement, “This must all be done at the same time.” First, I don’t think you can do it all at the same time. I don’t think its possible. And second, I don’t think denouncing… Read more »

ron
Guest
ron

so it’s simply a move to cover the posterior?

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Jeff Wright wrote: It’s more pressing for the SBC, considering some of the high-profile alt-righters are members of SBC churches apparently, to be clear on this specific point. This might be a good point, but I’ve asked and haven’t heard exactly who in the SBC alt-right. What are the numbers? Are we just counting anyone who voted Trump as alt-right? Are those racist alt-right SBCers being disciplined? These are honest questions. Also I don’t think I’ve heard an SBC leader say that alt-right is infiltrating the SBC. Maybe some have, but who I’ve heard say that are the lay folks… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“For a generation or so, our society has been busy at creating the preconditions for the rise of the alt-right. We have done this by abandoning the early promises of the civil rights movement (to judge on the basis of content of character only), and by instituting a hard regime of political correctness, hating whitey, affirmative action, not to mention vitriolic denunciations of those “racists” who believe that budgets should balance.” Pastor Wilson, you seem to suggest that racism wasn’t around so much, and then suddenly came up in the last few years as a reaction to something else. Do… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

Well said, Jonathan. I’m a bit surprised that Pastor Wilson can say such a thing. It’s like portraying the alt right as hapless victims of “preconditions” that have now corrupted these innocent and Godly men.

Is anybody actually responsible for their own behavior these days or are we all just kind of mindless lemmings?

GKC
Guest
GKC

Considering his views on antebellum southern slavery, why are you surprised? His “race and culture” posts have always skirted outright denouncement of racism by way of “see what the left made us do”.

MeMe
Guest

Hope, I suppose. Hope always rears it’s ugly head, doesn’t it?

Katecho
Member

False witness is the central ugly head that I see from GKC.

Why hope for something that is readily available for all to see?

Katecho
Member

GKC wrote: His “race and culture” posts have always skirted outright denouncement of racism by way of “see what the left made us do”. Multilayered nonsense from GKC. Wilson quite clearly and frequently denounces racial malice and racial vainglory, with solid appeals to Scripture. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, I guess. Neither is Wilson making excuses for “us” or for the alt-right. He’s merely pointing out the backlash against the secular agenda with its PC pluralism. When a culture no longer identifies itself in Christ, it will find its primary identity in race and… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

“When a culture no longer identifies itself in Christ, it will find its primary identity in race and nationality.”

Than the Alt White should be denounced by Christians everywhere since they do find their primary identity in race and nationality rather than Christ.

lagavulin
Guest
lagavulin

you have now narrowed from alt right to alt white…pls continue the refinement.

Katecho
Member

MeMe wrote:

Than the Alt White should be denounced by Christians everywhere since they do find their primary identity in race and nationality rather than Christ.

If MeMe wants to be in the denouncing business I’m sure she can find full time work with tens of thousands of organizations for her to condemn.

On the other hand, she may want to consider that there may be more constructive approaches too, such as Gospel evangelization.

MeMe
Guest

“On the other hand, she may want to consider that there may be more constructive approaches too, such as Gospel evangelization.”

When there are wolves within your tribe perverting scripture and leading people astray, “gospel evangelism” requires you to speak up. The SBC heard that cry and did precisely that.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

MeMe wrote

When there are wolves within your tribe perverting scripture and leading people astray, “gospel evangelism” requires you to speak up. The SBC heard that cry and did precisely that.

Please see my other comments on this post. I have asked several folks for sources on the infiltration of the alt-right into the SBC and I haven’t heard anything.

adad0
Member

GKC, at least try and be honest. At the moment you are embarrassing yourself. The below is in out host’s controversy library, right here on this site! Educate yourself and be honest. Don’t be “alt. honest”. ; – ) 2. I DENY THAT SLAVERY WAS A POSITIVE GOOD. Am I a defender of the system of Southern slavery as it existed prior to the Civil War? No, I am not. This is a false charge. In this post called Leaven in the Flour, I outline my position on slavery. As Though the Gospel Had Cooties provides a little intellectual background… Read more »

IsidoreTheFarmer
Guest
IsidoreTheFarmer

“Because I thought the opposite – the racism that was present and acceptable before the Civil Rights Movement became less acceptable after it, but it was still there, and in fact for those who didn’t want to let go of their racism the fact that Black persons got civil rights only intensified it. The fights against school segregation, the pulling of resources out of Black neighborhoods, White Flight, the Southern Strategy, those all really happened, right? So when did all that stop….the 1990s? So the majority of people who were racist up through the 1990s are still around now, right?… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote: The overreaches of the left did create a backlash, you are right about that. But the backlash wasn’t the creation of White Supremacy. That obviously had been there. The backlash was going far enough that it made White Supremacists feel they could be publicly acceptable again. It’s interesting to watch Jonathan object to Wilson’s overall point, lose focus, and then re-argue it much less clearly and effectively than Wilson already argued it. Jonathan wrote: Pastor Wilson, you seem to suggest that racism wasn’t around so much, and then suddenly came up in the last few years as a… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

“CNN and Reuters also conducted polls that linked the worsening race relations to the Obama regime specifically, even after the country proved decisively that the office of President was open to black men.”

I’m surprised that you can note the exact correlation, the exact nature of the cause and effect, and still remain blind to it.

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

I’m surprised that you can note the exact correlation, the exact nature of the cause and effect, and still remain blind to it.

Jonathan picked a really odd time to play coy.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

You sometimes say I’m playing coy when it is fairly obvious that I’m not.

Seeing a Black man in the presidential office led to an immediate backlash among a small minority of anti-Black citizens who then directed their anger in a manner that worsened race relations in the country.

Katecho
Member

Jonathan wrote:

Seeing a Black man in the presidential office led to an immediate backlash among a small minority of anti-Black citizens who then directed their anger in a manner that worsened race relations in the country.

I’m glad Jonathan spelled out his reasoning. I do enjoy a good chuckle.

TheWilsonExpositor
Guest
TheWilsonExpositor

I agree with Doc Wilson 100%. Is it so hard to just make this statement? – “Racism is wrong. It doesn’t matter what your skin color is. It doesn’t matter what their skin color is. If you think you can be a follower of Christ and hate people for their skin color, whatever color it may be, then you’re in the wrong – end of story.”

Instead, churches have to opt for weepy, self-flagellating “white guilt” parties. Can’t take any positions that liberals might find offensives, I guess. Might rock the church’s comfy little boat.

prayersofadoration
Member

Black lies matter. To treat them differently is to infantilize them and feed the monster.

Ben Garner
Member

I used to feel the same way. The old “liberals are the real racist” trope. But blacks do need to be treated differently. Their average IQ is 15 points lower than whites. And there are many other traits that make them incompatible (on average) with a white western European country. Until we recognize these realities and act accordingly (which is really all the alt right is trying to do), we will find ourselves in a state of perpetual frustration and befuddlement at our lack of progress.

prayersofadoration
Member

How is intelligence relevant?

Ben Garner
Member

Does intelligence play no role in how you interact with individual people? Do you speak in the same way to a high-IQ white doctor as you would to a working class or welfare-dependent, poor black who speaks nearly incoherent ebonics? Do you have the same expectations for both in terms of being able to grasp difficult concepts or think critically?

Or how do you think that such a black person would fit in if he went to some white, upper middle class church where the average IQ was, say, 120?

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I find it unlikely that such a church exists. But, I would expect a black person with an IQ of 85 would possibly experience the same difficulty at such a church as a white person with an average IQ. The vast majority of white people don’t have stellar IQs. The thought of a church in which most people of any race will feel too dumb to fit in is rather appalling. People learn to adjust their manner of speaking to their audience without giving it much thought. How I talk to my doctor is different from how I speak to… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

I speak to everyone I meet in loud single syllable words and grunts to ensure that I’m not misunderstood by the low- and mid-wits. It’s only common courtesy.

Thankfully, I can relax in ebullient erudition, deploying abstruse vocabulary with éclat among my intellectually well-endowed peers in my ecclesial ensconcement.

Ben Garner
Member

The point is that you DO adjust, because you intuitively recognize differences among individuals in terms of cognitive and critical thinking ability. Maybe it’s something you do with ease, but it’s still something you do. I’ve heard more than one well-meaning, egalitarian white evangelical talk about how differently blacks interpret incidents like the killings of Michael Brown, Philando Castile, Alton Sterling, etc. from whites. They say that whites tend to care about due process and reserving judgment until all the facts come out, whereas blacks approach such incidents using their intuition more than logic, typically interpreting them within the framework… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think there are definite differences in the way people of varying levels of intelligence process thought and emotion, but I don’t think the IQ differences that you cite, even if valid, are so pronounced as to make peaceful co-existence impossible. A black college professor and a white lawyer are going to equally use logic rather than intuition in reaching conclusions (or, if they use their intuition, it will take second place to the logic). But society isn’t divided into neat racial groups with vast differences in intelligence between them. If the average white IQ was 135, I can see… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

A lot of this is highly context dependant. I live near a mid-sized city in greater Appalachia. We have various minority and migrant groups that function at different levels of proficiency. But the most underperforming group in my orbit are underclass whites. Meth, opiods, and “it don’t matter” is the charred remnant of the rural white culture (that I descend from and live among). So yes, I have different expectations and modes of communication with different groups. But a simple race approach is foolhardy. As an aside I have several youngish black professionals that work with me and they seem… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Ben, do you realize that with the Flynn effect, the average IQ of White Americans in 2017 is fifteen points higher than the average IQ of White Americans in 1967? So were White Americans in the 1950s and 1960s also incompatible “on average” with a white western European country? There are quite obvious, systematic reasons why Black people have lower measured IQ’s than White people in America, simply by looking at the factors that lead to lower IQ test scores – poverty, lower educational access, lesser verbal input at an early age, higher levels of caregiver absence, and the self-fulfilling… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

People don’t seem to realize what a solvent the Flynn Effect is for any sort of casual relationships between IQ and success or societal mode. The IQ of sub saharan africans today is a little higher than that of early 20th century white folks.

I think you are likely wrong about the magnitude of the effect of non-shared environment, though. What will make a difference will be broad shared environment (not education), ceiling effects, and dysgenic load (low fertility assortive mating).

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I generally agree with your last sentence, so I need clarification in what your disagreement with me is in the next-to-last sentence.

demosthenes1d
Member

Jonathan, “simply by looking at the factors that lead to lower IQ test scores – poverty, lower educational access, lesser verbal input at an early age, higher levels of caregiver absence, and the self-fulfilling prophecy of low expectations.” Note the phrase “lead to” you seem to have the causation backwards, or at least orthogonal. Twin studies and adoption studies make it clear that the factors you mention have nearly nothing to do with IQ. Things that may have an effect, and may be correlated with your factors, include severe malnutrition, iodine deficiency, and excess serum lead. The Flynn effect is… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I don’t think some of those twin/adoption studies show as much as you think they do because of the degree of uniformity among the studied groups. I’ve read that at the extreme level (adoption vs. continued institutionalization among mentally disabled population) adoption can have a profound impact on IQ gains. I would assume that other levels of parental absence would still lead to smaller impacts. Similarly, there have been studies showing that missed years of schooling among poor Black children result in drops in tested IQ among those very children. I was also under the impression that studies showing a… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

Jonathan,

I would like to provide a more input here, but this system is so slow and buggy on my phone that I cant persevere. I would caution you to look closely at methodology in social science research as it is very prone to confirmation bias. Also, most of the pop level stuff like the “30 million word gap” is clearly fallacious, yet gets trotted out as fact.

Intuition and imagination are not good guides here.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I wasn’t quite going full-on pop level, but I admit that most of what I’ve read has been studies filtered through pop outlets. Part of what I’m basing this on is studies mentioned in David Brooks’s “The Social Animal”.

demosthenes1d
Member

Wasn’t really meant to be a critique. Just a note. I have nothing against Brooks (I used to read him regularly) but he tends to take social science headlines at face value. There is a lot of political pressure on researchers – no-one wants to get the Murray treatment – and often the headlines are orthogonal, or even opposite, the findings.

You may enjoy the latest piece on racism at Slate Star Codex. It is quite good as a paradigm critique from blue tribe adjacent. I would link it, but then this would get held up.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I basically agree with the article (assume you were referring to “Against Murderism”, as far as it goes. I’ve tried to have similar conversations with some of my extreme-liberal friends to no avail, though I hope at least that some less-extreme friends were listening and that it made a difference. I would be concerned that he obscured an entire set of issues, the place where racism is a major driver, does make a fundamental difference. And I would suspect that he and I would disagree over the degree to which that set of issues affects everything else. Maybe my question… Read more »

demosthenes1d
Member

Ben,

I wrote another comment yesterday, but it appears to have been blocked either for a link or mild (I thought) colorful language.

The gist was that you should read Ron Unz’s on IQ and race. Start with his critique of Lynn and Vanhanen’s book on IQ, race, and wealth. Then proceed to the rest I his writing on the topic. Especially interesting is his interaction with the nascent alt-right and HBD folks. Many of them deleted their posts, after being revealed as dilettante’s, so the whole record is unavailable.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

I just read the first of you recommendations. I’m even more curious than before as to where the disconnect between us on the previous questions is.

It makes me curious – what is your experience (either personal or via literature) with African-American populations in the United States?

demosthenes1d
Member

Jonathan, I was responding to Ben, therefore I was providing correction in a particular direction. For you I would point out how good the hard hereditarian data is. Adoptive family IQ has a coefficient of correlation of .04 for adult IQ. Twin, non-shared home has a .76 correlation. Shared environment sibling adult IQ is .24. (These are just from Wikipedia, but it is in line with every vigorous study I have seen). The single generation hard data is OVERWHELMINGLY pro-hard-hereditarian and no amount of rationalizing, just-so stories, or data mining can change that. The culture-wide long view has completely contrary… Read more »

Ginny Yeager
Guest
Ginny Yeager

I have a problem with the term “alt-right.” I first heard this term from Glenn Beck during the campaign, when he was taking every day as an opportunity to harpoon Trump, and from Hillary when she was trying to pillory the deplorables. Who exactly are we talking about? Anyone who is anti-mass, uncontrolled immigration? I would like some names of leaders of “alt-right.” Racism is a pernicious evil, but it is being used by the left as a PC club. This has been the left’s agenda for over a decade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l0hU162Rz0 If the SBC wants to renounce racism, then they… Read more »

Tom
Guest

Exactly.

adad0
Member

Ginny, the “Alt right ” is anyone to the right of the person using the term. ????

Aka, anyone to the right of Dennis Kucinich. ????

Ronald Reagan
Our host
Homer Simpson
Steve Bannon
Clarence Thomas
Marg Simpson
Etc.

Tom
Guest

It would be really interesting to have this discussion while deleting every comment that uses the words “racism” or “racial prejudice” so that everybody making a point on one side or the other would be compelled to spell out precisely what they mean rather than resorting to what is far too often nothing more than pointing and screeching. I mean are we talking about people who actively seek the harm of the “other” just because it is the “other”? Definitely bad. Are we talking about people who cross the street when they see a crowd from a different cultural background… Read more »

GKC
Guest
GKC

Tom, you really don’t know the definition of racism?

holmegm
Guest
holmegm

Ah, GKC, if only there existed “the” definition.

lagavulin
Guest
lagavulin

The definition has changed in the last 30 years. Breaking down the word it would be any distinction based on race.

MeMe
Guest

Well done, Pastor Wilson. Thanks for weighing in on this issue. Many of us were curious about what you would say. Here is the rest of the truth that is not being spoken. The alt right white supremacy outrage is about how we’re all black now. It is about the economic downturn, the loss of political power, the loss of social power, the loss of status within the culture. That’s why you thump your chest and proclaim white pride. You feel yourself sliding down the rubbish pile soon to join all your brothers and sisters who have been on the… Read more »

holmegm
Guest
holmegm

“I’d rather deal with the angry mob of fascists trying to shut down free speech than the cops.”

Remind me not to come to you for any advice then …

MeMe
Guest

I’ll remind you about what you said if the government ever decides to start rounding up right wing Christians.

James
Guest
James

The biggest issue I have with the statement is it lists “unintentional acts” of racism as being condemned. This to me appears to be borrowing the Marxist definition of racism, one all Christians should reject as unbiblical. What is an “unintentional act” of racism anyways? Besides that I agree with Doug, it is a good statement, but why now? What is driving it? Why not condemn the racism on the political left? As a baptist I also wonder, why do we need to do this on a convention level when we aspire to local church governance? Are we now going… Read more »

Thomas Achord
Guest
Thomas Achord

Calvin on the distinction between spiritual salvation in Christ, which unites all men, and social order in which they remain divided: “Regarding our salvation, and regarding the Kingdom of God (which is spiritual), there is no distinction or difference between man and woman, servant and master, poor and rich, great and small. Nevertheless, there does have to be some order among us, and Jesus Christ did not mean to eliminate it.” (Sermon on 1 Corinthian 11:11-16) “Political and outward order is widely different from spiritual government.” (Commentary on Matt. 19:7) “[T]here is no difference between the man and the woman,… Read more »

Tom
Guest

Not a Calvin guy, but that seems to me to put it well. Thanks.

ron
Guest
ron

Doug says:”The alt-right is the bastard child of obsequious political correctness on race. That is where this is coming from. That is the root. That is where the energy is coming from. And so what are we doing in the church?” We’re seeing people like the baseball shooter, who believe (with varying degrees of factual basis) that they are powerless and that their Rights are not being upheld by government. That justice is dead to one degree or another, and that it’s up to them to do what they can to exact justice on the culture, or just associate for… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

“Suppose someone introduced another resolution, next time around, identical in theology to this one, and identical in theological expression to this one, but with the only difference being that the specific groups denounced were the Nation of Islam or Black Lives Matter. ”

There’s a huge difference here. The nation of Islam and BLM are not claiming Jesus Christ as justification for their hatred nor self identifying themselves as parts of the SBC.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

Can you show me where the Alt Right is using Christ as their justification for hatred? I haven’t read them widely or extensively, but I have yet to see much beyond survival as justification for any of their positions.

MeMe
Guest

You mean like when they actually write entire screeds declaring “hatred is a Christian value?”

I could Kilgore, I could give you dozens of links but you won’t be able to hear me. You’ll just spin, rationalize, and excuse it all like Pastor Wilson has been doing. There’s a narrative going on, it’s like a brick wall of ideology.

All I can really do is pray for soft hearts and wise men and quite happily that’s exactly what the SBC gave me.

Josarian
Guest
Josarian

Vox Day recently described hate as a Christian virtue, citing the many places in scripture that Christians are commanded to hate certain things, like lies. MeMe would probably like you to think that scripture was being used as an excuse for racism, not so. Link below.

https://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/darkstream-hate-is-christian-virtue.html

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Look at a website called “Cambria Will Not Yield.” The writer, who is anonymous, loathes non-whites and appears to believe that Christ can be mediated only through the hearth fires of the ancient northern Europeans.

John
Member

I have to admit that I just don’t get this fascination with the”alt right.” I spent 5 minutes reading Vox Day and realized after thirty seconds he was looney. Just because they throw around the word “Christian” sometimes why are we wasting time reading their blogs? Germans during WW2 had a saying, “He who loves Hitler loves Germany. He who loves Germany loves God.” So should we start blogging about Mein Kampf? I’m not trying to seem “holier than thou” but if you spend 5 minutes reading alt right garbage and 15 minutes reading/blogging about it how does that help… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I have a huge tolerance for loony. Not so much for loony dished up with large side orders of malice.

IsidoreTheFarmer
Guest
IsidoreTheFarmer

One other aspect that is a bit inside baseball within the SBC is the degree to which ERLC (political arm of SBC) head Russell Moore is a proponent of open borders and opposes even softer views of nationalism (i.e. borders). He has even funneled money to Soros related open borders groups. Thus, he is always happy to sling a little mud on any kind of nationalist. It’s a shame. On the surface, what Doug says here is fine, but unless you are inside the SBC it is difficult to describe the degree to which identity politics has become all-consuming. If… Read more »

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Please explain how Black Lives Matter is racist. Because quite candidly, the claim that it is sounds like a racist dog whistle from someone trying to distract attention from the legitimate grievances of blacks being gunned down for no good reason.

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

If I advocated for black segregation, as they do often, would I be a racist?

I don’t. They do. Somehow I am the racist and not them. Funny how that works.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Black lives matter is advocating for black segregation? Do you have a link?

CHer
Guest
CHer

+1

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Having a Black-only event is as good an example of “racism” as having a men-only event would be an example of “sexism”. It’s only racism if it is actually tied into some sort of racist ideology or motivation, not simply by its existence. If you believe that in some circumstances, it is appropriate to have a women-only event in your church where women can feel comfortable discussing crimes that specifically pertain to them without men present, then it makes sense that there could be a motivation for having a Black person-only event where Black people can feel comfortable discussing crimes… Read more »

Cher
Guest
Cher

I’m guessing your “white only” events weren’t advertised on campus. Much lesser things caused a huge uproar on my campus. The same as true at any workplace, where pretty much every other race has a month dedicated to them.

Here’s one example of someone who tried it:
http://godfatherpolitics.com/white-only-events-racist-but-black-only-events-not/

Note this really happened and was specific…not just a “a group of whites met together on my college campus….ergo it was a ‘whites only’ meeting” that can’t be verified (but makes good internet fodder).

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Well, we didn’t put up billboards that I remember, but the general nickname everyone called it was “White Con” and it was held at the same time as “Black Con”, “Asian Con”, and “Latino Con”. I think there was “Biracial Con” too. I don’t remember the real name of the event because everyone used the “White Con” nickname. The first occurred in Spring 2001 and involved at least a dozen campuses including UCLA and USC, and the second occurred in Spring 2002. Since there were many hundreds of people there at the White Con alone and it was a full… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

(Not that white-only events aren’t a default in much of the Church anyway.)

I find it hilarious that whites are racist, because we open our churches to the public and only white people show up because they make up in some parts of the country 95% of the population. But if blacks openly exclude non-blacks, that is not racist.

It kind of sounds to me like leftists like yourself should start simply being more honest in your language. Racist means being white. Being a colored person (sorry, I mean a person of color), means you can’t be racist.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I expect that the blacks who invited Dylann Roof to attend their Bible study were more typical of black Christians than those who exclude whites.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

By a long shot, in my experience.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Kilgore, when you put words in other people’s mouths, it doesn’t get anywhere. I don’t think “Racist means being white” and have never said anything like that, I haven’t said “being a colored person means you can’t be racist” or said anything like that. And the tone and language of your statements is revealing something about how you feel here. I don’t think Black persons should openly exclude non-Black persons. I have attended Black churches, worked in “Black” workplaces, gone to “Black” events, and never felt excluded. I simply stated that there was a reasonable justification for segregation in short-term… Read more »

Kilgore T. Durden
Guest
Kilgore T. Durden

I posted a flurry of links, but they are stuck in moderation.

This new posting system is clunky.

Cher
Guest
Cher

BLM Toronto’s co-founder said the following: whiteness is not humanness. infact, white skin is sub-humxn. [sic] all phenotypes exist within the black family and white ppl are a genetic defect of blackness http://archive.fo/yzMBd They’ve also had “black only” meetings. Think that would work for whites? Also, one of the founders, Alicia Garza, is a fan of Assata Shakur of Black Panther/Black Liberation Army fame:http://thefeministwire.com/2014/10/blacklivesmatter-2/ And your pals also enjoy chanting things like “Pigs In A Blanket, Fry ‘Em Like Bacon!'” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xNxoeqf0Ws Yes, these are the folks with whom Piper, Moore and many Reformed/Evangelical SJWs want to show sympathy. Tell me… Read more »

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

OK, so there are racist blacks just as there are racist whites, and both groups have their lunatic fringe. So what? Are you claiming they speak for the movement as a whole? Or that every group gets tarred with every statement by every nutcase who belongs to it?

CHer
Guest
CHer

No, but I provided evidence for what you asked about. Why not admit you were wrong instead of moving the goalposts and trying to reframe your own question? And the Alt-R is the same way. It’s a big tent and a few people don’t speak for the whole movement.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Why not admit you were wrong instead of moving the goalposts and trying to reframe your own question?

Upvote.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Not only have I not moved the goalpost, our disagreement is firmly rooted in my insistence that the goalpost stay firmly where it is. You can probably find BLM activists who endorse just about any crazy idea there is, just as you can find Christian leaders who embrace just about any crazy idea there is. The question is, at what point is the entire movement held culpable for their nutty beliefs. And be very careful about going down that road, I suspect there is far more ammunition against Christians than there is against BLM.

Cher
Guest
Cher

“I suspect there is far more ammunition against Christians than there is against BLM.”

Of course you can find more ammunition for a 2,000+ year oldworldwide movement than something that’s a few years old and almost completely restricted to the U.S. C’mon, you’re failing Stats 101 and a decent 4th-grade Critical Thinking course. And you certainly did try to reframe the question to save face.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

What I did was to avert him changing the subject. And I suspect that if you limit the survey to Christians of today, there would still be more ammunition against Christians than against BLM.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

Sorry, typo. What I did was avert *you* changing the subject.

MeMe
Guest

“They will welcome it. That kind of thing is their food, their nourishment. And if you don’t want weeds in your garden, then stop fertilizing and watering them.”

Astounding. Hypocrisy, too.

So how come the same idea doesn’t apply to feminism? Abortion? Liberalism? Doesn’t the right nourish and fertilize those things? I’ve been desperately speaking of cause and effect, symbiosis, for more than a year now.

bethyada
Member

Thanks for this, I had some concerns that you mention here but you raise others as well. From my perspective, I felt the speed at which this process happened was unwise. People stayed up all night to get something written so that it could be passed under urgency! Given the nature of the issue something like this needs far more consideration. How many of the voters have a good understanding of what the alt-Right is about and what drives them? And in opposing the alt-Right are they saying that they oppose everything they might stand for? Regardless of how much… Read more »

John
Member

Thabiti Anyabwile supported the resolution. You can do with that what you may.

bethyada
Member

This is Day’s proposal for the alt-Right. Now this is after the fact. And it matters what people do, not just what they say. Nor does Day necessarily represent the alt-Right over others prominent in the movement. And it may be that a couple of bad points here become the predominant focus.

I think the alt-Right is mistaken in some things and their trajectory is wrong. But I don’t reject everything they say, and in some things they are more astute in recognising problems than the churches.

MeMe
Guest

Yeah, well if you just leave off all the parts where Vox admires Anders Brievik as a hero, claims hatred is a Christian value, and speaks fondly of the SBC, he I’m sure he sounds like a very nice man indeed.

bethyada
Member

Where did I approve of his comments about Brievik? Hatred of people is not a virtue, hatred of sin is. Why do you object to him speaking fondly of the SBC (not that I think he is currently)?

I am trying to note that the opposition to alt-Right is often driven in ignorance. And I think that the SBC resolution was misguided even though many of the statements are reasonable.

MeMe
Guest

People like Vox Day are the reason why the SBC really needed to do this. He is not alone, but he is certainly one of the people claiming a connection to the SBC, advocating that hatred is a Christian virtue, while expressing admiration for Brievik.

Cher
Guest
Cher

” but he is certainly one of the people claiming a connection to the SBC”

What’s the connection between Vox and the SBC? Link please.

There are connections between Baptists like Russell Moore and BLM.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/may/where-john-piper-evangelicals-stand-black-lives-matter-blm.html

CHer
Guest
CHer

So no connection was actually claimed, huh? Debating is easy if you just make stuff up. Last I heard, VD lives in Italy…about as far from SBCs as you can get while remaining in the nominally Christian world.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

You should slow down a little bit. Vox Day quite clearly claimed membership in the SBC. This appeared on his website on June 10th:

“I was once a member of a Southern Baptist church. If this resolution passes, I will no longer consider myself a Southern Baptist, as the Southern Baptist Convention has been thoroughly cucked and is now officially an anti-nationalist and anti-American globalist institution.”

I think you should apologize to MeMe for so easily accusing her of making stuff up.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan
Arthur Sido
Guest

“Otherwise, the church is being played. ” Ding, ding, ding! While just about anyone can and ought to be against “racism”, depending on how you define that, it seems to me that this entire process is about a lot more than repelling the “alt-right” bogeyman from the SBC. I have yet to see any signs that that is even a problem in the first place. From 9 Marks to the Gospel Coalition to Russell Moore and Ed Stetzer, I am seeing an awful lot of chatter about “racial reconciliation” which sounds fine and dandy but it really isn’t a Gospel… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Reconciliation between Greeks and Jews, Samaritans and Jews, etc. is quite clearly a Gospel priority. I would think that pertains to other divisions as well.

Josarian
Guest
Josarian

I’m an Evangelical Christian who thinks he should probably be Orthodox but can’t quite make the leap. Politically, I think of myself as a realistic western libertarian which puts me closest to the Alt-right. I personally like Vox Day’s 16 points as a starting point for what the Alt-right is. The 16 points has been translated into more than 20 languages because it is for all nations. I’ve listed them below for those who haven’t seen them. 1. The Alt Right is of the political right in both the American and the European sense of the term. Socialists are not… Read more »

Barnie
Guest
Barnie

“We have done this by abandoning the early promises of the civil rights movement (to judge on the basis of content of character only)”
That’s the problem with you conservatives, always taking war propaganda at face value.

Barnie
Guest
Barnie

Imagine two groups of people, Group A and Group B. And imagine a system where what it means to be a good person in Group A was to show how much you care for Group B by transferring resources and political power to them and encouraging other members of Group A to do the same. Once this system is well established, a member of Group A will abide by the system due to internalized morality but also because being seen a good person conveys social status and power. To any individual, transferring more to Group B will obviously entail costs… Read more »

Ehud Would
Guest
pepe
Guest
pepe

You don’t have to attack the Alt-Right to get your point across. The Alt-Right is not what you think it is; with all due respect, Pastor Wilson, you may have been misled by the mainstream media in this regard. Much of Alt-Right is Christian. Richard Spencer’s pro-abortion stance is hardly the norm that defines the movement. The SBC is ultimately taking a step here toward appeasing insane leftists, something that history has shown never works. The Alt-Right will stand by you in a heartbeat if you reach out and disavow multiculturalism. Please don’t make enemies out of your natural allies!… Read more »

bdash
Guest
bdash

Most already parrot Left Wing nonsense
Churches now call for redistribution of wealth.
Churches Gender beliefs even the complementarian ones are in name only, in practice their members are no different to feminist, matriarchy marriages
Churches want more dodgy refugees with no concern about integration, protection for family etc…
it is stunning
according to modern churches, Godly churches 40, 50 -200 years ago were all satanic and anti Gospel…

it is Good though, easy to identify true believers from the nonsense.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

“The alt-right is the bastard child of obsequious political correctness on race. That is where this is coming from. That is the root. That is where the energy is coming from.”

Not really. What the alt-right represents was always doing just fine without obsequious political correctness. In fact, it comes from the same place as strident, overbearing, irrational political correctness on race. Neither the alt-right, by that or any other name, nor PC on race, are bastard children at all, but siblings, and the very natural children of their father, pride and their mother, insecurity.

MeMe
Guest

Finally, someone sensible.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Amen.

lagavulin
Guest
lagavulin

When you say “what the alt-right represents” are you referring to vox, spencer, cnn, foxnews or you perception as the alt-right. When you make bulbous statements about alt-right you leave dialectic discord and invite rhetorical responses. Analogous to an earlier comment get rid of the term alt-right and further define what you mean. Lazy thought results in poor arguments. Straw man arguments?

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Word salad?

pepe
Guest
pepe

Have you ever spoken to a member of the Alt-Right in real life?

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Why? Do they misrepresent themselves in media?

Jason
Guest
Jason

You are painting the alt-right with a broad brush by calling them white supremacists. Read the 16 Points of the Alt-Right (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/08/what-alt-right-is.html)

Point 15
The Alt Right does not believe in the general supremacy of any race, nation, people, or sub-species. Every race, nation, people, and human sub-species has its own unique strengths and weaknesses, and possesses the sovereign right to dwell unmolested in the native culture it prefers.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

First off, Vox Day himself has claimed that there is an “Alt-White” within the Alt-Right, which is “pure white nationalist” as opposed to the “omni-nationalists”, calls this the Richard Spencer side of the Alt-Right, and strongly insists that the rest of the Alt-Right must cooperate with the White Nationalists and stand together if they will ever advance their cause. And even then, point 14 on his list (remember, he sees himself as NOT on the alt-White side): 14: “The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.” And even then he… Read more »

Barnie
Guest
Barnie
grh
Guest
grh

“The alt-right is the bastard child of obsequious political correctness on race. That is where this is coming from.” A greater contributing factor is the response that the American church-ianity scene had in the mid-to-late 20th century to this: by abandoning the church’s God-given, Christ-ordained gospel mission to make disciples by preaching and teaching the Word in favor for right-wing political activism, the church itself set the stage for the rise of the alt-right by laying the foundation for the mission of the alt-right as “God’s work”. The results are what we see before us now. So to the church… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

Amen.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Amen to that to.

Darren Camp
Guest

Nonsense.

lucesociator
Member

Although their race is not mentioned in scripture, I am reminded of two of the first presumed members of the Church. The first in mind is Simon of Africa who may or may not have been Black. The next is the Ethiopian eunuch who again may or may not have been Black. The Bible is actually silent on matters of “race”, but does speak a lot to ethne (from which we get our word ethnic, I am told). Every ethne is to be included in Christ’s Church. (Rev 5:9-10). Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc., et al. In our communities we however… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Yes, amen.

ron
Guest
ron

Alt-Righty then…dig it? (some may not comprend-ey)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMHaRDISBOw

Ginny Yeager
Guest
Ginny Yeager

Will the SBC be denouncing anarcho-syndicalism anytime soon? Just wondering.

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

The problem with racism is that even if its premise were true — that some groups are on average inferior to others — its conclusions don’t follow. When an individual member of the inferior group shows up who is smart, hard working, honest, and otherwise a decent human being, is he not entitled to be treated as an individual who is smart, hard working, honest, and a decent human being? Even if most members of his group are not? The idea that you treat people badly because other people aren’t smart, hard working, honest decent human beings strikes me as… Read more »

MeMe
Guest

Amen.

John
Member

You’re an evolutionist. It would take a Creator to make all races equal, no? Evolution would, if for no other reason than geographic distance and all that entails (differences in climate, terrain etc.) make for varied, and perhaps, profound differences between races.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

That wouldn’t necessarily be true in the relatively short time period that races differentiated. The characteristics that people use to distinguish race tend to be based on very few genes, like skin color (which is primarily controlled by just four genes, I think) or differences in proclivity to certain diseases, often controlled a single gene. Brain structure is far more complex, and while slight genetic differences may one day be found, I doubt that there could be enough changes made in that complex system in such a short amount of time to lead to profound differences in IQ. The fact… Read more »

Barnie
Guest
Barnie
pepe
Guest
pepe

Walt Bismarck is a genius

Luken
Guest

Well, that was easy for the SBC. Just label the Alt-Right movement as racist, because they can find a couple people who use that label who are. Even though the majority decry racism. Unless, not surprisingly, the SBC means that weighing the values of culture is racism. You know judging cultures by the content of their character and all that.

pepe
Guest
pepe

Has the SBC done anything to attempt to contact the Alt-Right, to actually listen to their ideas? Has Pastor Wilson? This an artificially imposed memetic barrier; lock up your brain against crimethink as soon as the trigger word “racist” is spoken by a leftist. This is cultural suicide coming from the leaders of the faith that most of the Alt-Right has been ardently defending. Even if you imagine yourself fighting the Alt-Right because it is a “worldly” or “un-Christian” ideology in your mind, you have no argument against it other than repeating something that a leftist “anti-racist” said who will… Read more »

bdash
Guest
bdash

A lot of us who are part of the alt right are so because the alt right hates feminism.
The church meanwhile continues to submit to it and is just 20 years behind the culture…
Young men are now ostracized for expecting a wife to look after the home
for 6000 years that was normal and also biblical
hence men are leaving the cucked churches
alt right is strong
And

Wasting Time
Guest
Wasting Time

The alt-right is not remotely equivalent to the idea that “black lives matter.” The former is outright racist; the latter is trying to rectify the fact that black people (see the Philando Castile video that just came out) can be killed with no justice in situations that white people would easily survive.