A couple posts ago, I wrote about why I was not going to say anything about South Carolina taking down their Confederate battle flag at their capitol building. Some mistook my point and jeered at the fact that I had a good deal to say about other stuff. But the other stuff was relevant, and I did not in fact demand that South Carolina #TakeItDown — or leave it up for that matter. While I actually believe that a time might come when the flag should in fact come down, it should not be in response to hard pressure, soft logic, and a lot of yelling.
So I put together a small visual gallery to make my point that this image is not about racism simpliciter. If you will bear with these little tongue-in-cheek examples, we will reserve a more serious statement for another time.
There is, of course, the basic Skynyrd example.
The Mississippi state flag, which is no doubt on display somewhere in our nation’s capital.Former president Jimmy Carter in Brazil, having visited Americana, where thousands of Confederate soldiers relocated after the war. This is 1972. You know Jimmy. The Democrat.Then you have what I suspect is your basic redneckery.Twenty years after Carter’s visit to Brazil, there is this little memento of an important campaign in American presidential politics.And we cannot leave out the Dukes of Hazzard car . . .Okay, not quite the Confederate battle flag, but in 1987, Bill Clinton signed a statement by the General Assembly of Arkansas, wherein he explained that “the blue star above the word ‘ARKANSAS’ is to commemorate the Confederate States of America” (Act 116 of the 1987 Regular Session). You might know Bill from the fact that his wife is currently the Democratic front runner. This is all a trick! Wake up, sheeple!And of course it is necessary not to leave out what I consider to be the basic, slam dunk argument against white supremacy.I also must apologize for my fundamental incompetence when it comes to posting gallery images in an orderly way.Occasionally you have a wild card.Or a wilder card.And we have a country variation on the Skynyrd motif with Hank Jr.Here is the old Georgia flag, which was changed in 2001.And the new Georgia flag, more subtle, no? Subtle is right. It is the first national flag of the Confederacy, with the Georgia seal added. But lest you wonder, six other state flags still bear tribute to the CSA — Florida, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Alabama.
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Thomas Achord
9 years ago
But my government textbook tells me it means hate. NYT tells me it means hate. College profs tell me it’s hate. Case closed.
I can well believe that when some individuals choose to fly the Confederate flag, they have decided to focus on the non-racial elements in its symbolism. I am willing to assume that not every flag waver is an unrepentant racist and slavery apologist. But, because of its associations–not merely during the Civil War but also during the days of segregation and white-on-black racial violence–there is a presumption that the person is identifying with the entire symbolic package. If I put a National Organization for Women bumper sticker on my car, there is no use my being offended when people assume… Read more »
The Dukes of Hazzard was my first thought on the previous post, and given that the law was suspect in that show…. Maybe it should be rebranded against police abuse?
Al Stout
9 years ago
I get it that many who fly this flag do so in a spirit of Hazard County, good ol’ boy, don’t tread on me, soft rebellion. But what was the design of the designers? When my people* debated the flag, what were their reasons for adopting it? To be sure many were pushing back against a government they believed had broken covenant with the states, but there was also a desire to show the world that the white man would not be put under the dominion of any lesser race. The editor of the Savannah Morning News (https://books.google.com/books?id=R3MUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA524&dq=%22William%20Ross%20Postell%22%20%22Flag%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZcTVdypNIehNvHlgNgJ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22William%20Ross%20Postell%22%20%22Flag%22&f=false) , William… Read more »
There were many reasons represented under the flag, just as there are many ideas represented under the U.S. flag today. For instance, the Confederate Constitution abolished the slave trade, and in their “Declaration” the Cherokee Nation threw its lot in with the Confederacy because they had been oppressed and saw in their cause freedom. Surely there were other, racial, enslaving ideas represented under the flag, but race was not the sole idea.
Thomas… Of course there were many reasons, but for someone of an “inferior race” those reasons simply have a hard time finding purchase in the debate. Probably has something to do with the cry of widows and orphans drowning the sound of them.
The “White Man’s Flag” incorporated the battle flag as the union portion of the flag. He put it in there, I think, to legitimize the white standard. He said that it was the consecrated flag of the states. That consecration by blood was important to give the flag legitimacy and show the world they were willing to fight for what they believe in. IN this case white supremacy. The raising of the battle flag over the South Carolina state house in 1962 was less explicit, but South Carolina was still willing to fight. Now though they were willing to fight… Read more »
Al Stout
9 years ago
In the early 1960s there was a great push to overturn legislation that demanded racial segregation in South Carolina. Most of this pressure did not originate in the legislature of the state. In 1961 the South Carolina Legislature responded to this pressure by putting up the Confederate flag over their state house. It was not removed from there to its current location, still on the capitol, until 2000. A black man seeing that flag would not, I would even say could not, see the desire to restrain an over zealous federal government that needed correction. All they would see is… Read more »
Let’s not lose sight of a recent change in trajectory. Let’s not give in to the invitations to rehash the past in search of fresh grievance. The South stood for many things besides slavery. If we want to selectively only remember and remind ourselves of the old guilt and sin, who will ever be free from the past? Consider some of Doug’s examples of Confederate bars and stars on Democrat campaign materials from the 70s, 80s and 90s. Do these indicate that attitudes about the flag were not as polarizing as they seem to have become lately? Could this indicate… Read more »
Hopefully the way Christ taught us to, by repenting. But re-manufactured guilt is a testimony against Christ’s forgiveness of our sin.
pduggie
9 years ago
Trolling black people, Doug?
Barnabas
9 years ago
I doubt many that get upset about a Confederate flag have an appreciation for the historical ubiquity of slavery and the natural tendency to revert to that state. I don’t think many appreciate the delicate nature of civilization and the rule of law that hold those forces at bay. This argument will likely still be going on when North America slips into barbarism and slavery returns to our shores.
Well, if barbarism returns (or if any major war, energy crisis, food crisis, etc. happen), the only benefit will be a quick end to PC madness. No one will be running around screaming about transgender rights or how many women need to fill such-and-such combat roles…and we won’t have 24-hour coverage of relatively mild police officer “brutality” at allegedly racist swimming pools.
And most of all, the irony of the Left joking about “1st world problems” will be ever so apparent.
Barnabas
9 years ago
I really don’t care one way or another about the flag but we have been in a rolling state of race hysteria since February of 2012. According to Roof, this is what awakened his “racial consciousness”. The media an race opportunists have scoured the country for incidents to create racial division. When the facts didn’t turn out to fit the narrative they simply moved on to the next story. “Racial reconciliation” has come to mean magnification or manufacture of grievance to push an agenda. Does anyone really think taking down that flag will change anything? More likely this will only… Read more »
Exactly. We are just being steered by whatever grievance and guilt manipulation will work. We are showing how gullible we are when we react with counter-outrage. We need to respond like Wilson consistently does, with context and with a bit of humor mixed in, to show that we won’t be played so easily.
Dan from Georgia
9 years ago
Again, sometimes the best course of action is to not say anything (sometimes the less said the better!).
So, I guess the consensus here among blogger and readers is that the Confederate flag is no more or less a symbol of slavery and segregation than the U.S. Flag is of abortion. And that the left leaning media and politicians along with pharmaceutical manufacturers are much more responsible for this latest killer than are white supremacist literature on the web and the private seller background check loophole. And the solution? Get rid of antidepressants, CNN, NY Times and let the white people who are in the majority in South Carolina have their preferred flag on capital grounds instead of… Read more »
AMA
9 years ago
Welp, looks like Russell Moore has just joined the chorus to replace the Mississippi flag.
Andrew
9 years ago
I am many thousand km away from all of this. Can someone explain what the direct connection is between the shooter and the Confed flag? I haven’t seen any reports that he was wearing a flag or directly alluded to it?
Flag worship is the same as the graven images Catholics use. This country is not under God. Look at the pyramid all seeing eye on your money. Wake up. #Newworldordermarksofthebeast
Jim S.
9 years ago
I hope everyone here already knows about Douggy Wils affiliation with the overtly racist League of the South and his writings on the confederacy. If you do then his stance on the flag shouldn’t come as a surprise.
Hmmm, I never hear of that. Are they anything like Obama’s overtly communist affiliations?
Jason Pearson
9 years ago
Well, if you lose the war, then you lose the right to fly your flag…no Tory descendants flying the British flag in New England. Time to move it along, children.
Luke T. Harrington
9 years ago
The flag shouldn’t come down “in response to hard pressure, soft logic, and a lot of yelling”? For what reason, pray tell, then, *should* the flag come down? Soft pressure? Hard logic? A little bit of yelling? When has “soft pressure” ever accomplished anything? What “hard, logical” reason would there ever be to take a flag down?
The “lot of yelling,” by the way, occurs because the flag represents a regime that regarded 30% of South Carolina’s people as subhuman. I’d be upset too if people clung to a symbol of my subhumanness.
“I’d be upset too if people clung to a symbol of my subhumanness.”
There. It looks to me like a straightforward application of the Golden Rule ought to solve this issue in about 10 seconds.
John
9 years ago
Below is a little more thoughtful take on the flag – pointing out that the confederate flag has been adopted by neo-fascist movements in Europe where the swastika has been banned – that’s right the confederate flag has been adopted as the back-up rascist flag in Europe. What Wilson fails to understand regarding symbolism is the effect of the symbol on a group of people who were systemically brutalized and enslaved. Of course all this is understandable since Wilson wrote a defense of Southern slavery – I suspect Wilson understands more than he lets on about how symbols work.
When I see the Confederate flag, rebellion, treason, and using the issue of state’s rights in order to defend owning Black people comes to mind. Actually, nothing good comes to mind when I see that flag.
The flag was “taken down” years ago. It is in a memorial spot in the state house grounds as are other historical items from our SC history.
JT
9 years ago
Thoughts 1) Jesus disciples included Matthew the tax collector, servant of the Romans and Simon the Zealot, a member of a group dedicated to violently ending that rule. Maybe it is possible for Christians to have extremely different political opinions? 2) This whole discussion seems like a misdirection. Charleston ended in justice (as far as man can achieve) and forgiveness, not riots. Jesus provides true reconciliation. That is something that the media doesn’t want to focus on. 3) The attempt to remove all traces of the Confederacy from the South has been going on apace. The Confederate Daughters of America… Read more »
ArwenB
9 years ago
Look, just tell people that the Confederate flag is trans-symboled, and no longer identifies as the emblem of race-hatred and skin-pigment-based oppression.
And that it really doesn’t appreciate being othered by cis-symbolist oppressors who refuse to let it embrace its true identity as a symbol of Southerners’ free spirits (or whatever).
But my government textbook tells me it means hate. NYT tells me it means hate. College profs tell me it’s hate. Case closed.
I can well believe that when some individuals choose to fly the Confederate flag, they have decided to focus on the non-racial elements in its symbolism. I am willing to assume that not every flag waver is an unrepentant racist and slavery apologist. But, because of its associations–not merely during the Civil War but also during the days of segregation and white-on-black racial violence–there is a presumption that the person is identifying with the entire symbolic package. If I put a National Organization for Women bumper sticker on my car, there is no use my being offended when people assume… Read more »
Florida is based on a Spanish flag. Not CSA.
Benjamin, what matters is how it makes us feel.
LOL.
*Paging Russell Moore*
Unfortunately, only one of these pictures fits his narrative about a flag dripping with hatred.
The Dukes of Hazzard was my first thought on the previous post, and given that the law was suspect in that show…. Maybe it should be rebranded against police abuse?
I get it that many who fly this flag do so in a spirit of Hazard County, good ol’ boy, don’t tread on me, soft rebellion. But what was the design of the designers? When my people* debated the flag, what were their reasons for adopting it? To be sure many were pushing back against a government they believed had broken covenant with the states, but there was also a desire to show the world that the white man would not be put under the dominion of any lesser race. The editor of the Savannah Morning News (https://books.google.com/books?id=R3MUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA524&dq=%22William%20Ross%20Postell%22%20%22Flag%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZcTVdypNIehNvHlgNgJ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22William%20Ross%20Postell%22%20%22Flag%22&f=false) , William… Read more »
There were many reasons represented under the flag, just as there are many ideas represented under the U.S. flag today. For instance, the Confederate Constitution abolished the slave trade, and in their “Declaration” the Cherokee Nation threw its lot in with the Confederacy because they had been oppressed and saw in their cause freedom. Surely there were other, racial, enslaving ideas represented under the flag, but race was not the sole idea.
Thomas… Of course there were many reasons, but for someone of an “inferior race” those reasons simply have a hard time finding purchase in the debate. Probably has something to do with the cry of widows and orphans drowning the sound of them.
You know Thompson was talking about a different flag, right?
The “White Man’s Flag” incorporated the battle flag as the union portion of the flag. He put it in there, I think, to legitimize the white standard. He said that it was the consecrated flag of the states. That consecration by blood was important to give the flag legitimacy and show the world they were willing to fight for what they believe in. IN this case white supremacy. The raising of the battle flag over the South Carolina state house in 1962 was less explicit, but South Carolina was still willing to fight. Now though they were willing to fight… Read more »
In the early 1960s there was a great push to overturn legislation that demanded racial segregation in South Carolina. Most of this pressure did not originate in the legislature of the state. In 1961 the South Carolina Legislature responded to this pressure by putting up the Confederate flag over their state house. It was not removed from there to its current location, still on the capitol, until 2000. A black man seeing that flag would not, I would even say could not, see the desire to restrain an over zealous federal government that needed correction. All they would see is… Read more »
Let’s not lose sight of a recent change in trajectory. Let’s not give in to the invitations to rehash the past in search of fresh grievance. The South stood for many things besides slavery. If we want to selectively only remember and remind ourselves of the old guilt and sin, who will ever be free from the past? Consider some of Doug’s examples of Confederate bars and stars on Democrat campaign materials from the 70s, 80s and 90s. Do these indicate that attitudes about the flag were not as polarizing as they seem to have become lately? Could this indicate… Read more »
How should we respond if we are, in fact, guilty?
Hopefully the way Christ taught us to, by repenting. But re-manufactured guilt is a testimony against Christ’s forgiveness of our sin.
Trolling black people, Doug?
I doubt many that get upset about a Confederate flag have an appreciation for the historical ubiquity of slavery and the natural tendency to revert to that state. I don’t think many appreciate the delicate nature of civilization and the rule of law that hold those forces at bay. This argument will likely still be going on when North America slips into barbarism and slavery returns to our shores.
Well, if barbarism returns (or if any major war, energy crisis, food crisis, etc. happen), the only benefit will be a quick end to PC madness. No one will be running around screaming about transgender rights or how many women need to fill such-and-such combat roles…and we won’t have 24-hour coverage of relatively mild police officer “brutality” at allegedly racist swimming pools.
And most of all, the irony of the Left joking about “1st world problems” will be ever so apparent.
I really don’t care one way or another about the flag but we have been in a rolling state of race hysteria since February of 2012. According to Roof, this is what awakened his “racial consciousness”. The media an race opportunists have scoured the country for incidents to create racial division. When the facts didn’t turn out to fit the narrative they simply moved on to the next story. “Racial reconciliation” has come to mean magnification or manufacture of grievance to push an agenda. Does anyone really think taking down that flag will change anything? More likely this will only… Read more »
Exactly. We are just being steered by whatever grievance and guilt manipulation will work. We are showing how gullible we are when we react with counter-outrage. We need to respond like Wilson consistently does, with context and with a bit of humor mixed in, to show that we won’t be played so easily.
Again, sometimes the best course of action is to not say anything (sometimes the less said the better!).
Doug, my friend, you only have a couple days to register your position before it becomes moot: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/south-carolina-state-leaders-urge-lawmakers-vote-take-down-confederate-n379801
So, I guess the consensus here among blogger and readers is that the Confederate flag is no more or less a symbol of slavery and segregation than the U.S. Flag is of abortion. And that the left leaning media and politicians along with pharmaceutical manufacturers are much more responsible for this latest killer than are white supremacist literature on the web and the private seller background check loophole. And the solution? Get rid of antidepressants, CNN, NY Times and let the white people who are in the majority in South Carolina have their preferred flag on capital grounds instead of… Read more »
Welp, looks like Russell Moore has just joined the chorus to replace the Mississippi flag.
I am many thousand km away from all of this. Can someone explain what the direct connection is between the shooter and the Confed flag? I haven’t seen any reports that he was wearing a flag or directly alluded to it?
Here.
Flag worship is the same as the graven images Catholics use. This country is not under God. Look at the pyramid all seeing eye on your money. Wake up. #Newworldordermarksofthebeast
I hope everyone here already knows about Douggy Wils affiliation with the overtly racist League of the South and his writings on the confederacy. If you do then his stance on the flag shouldn’t come as a surprise.
Hmmm, I never hear of that. Are they anything like Obama’s overtly communist affiliations?
Well, if you lose the war, then you lose the right to fly your flag…no Tory descendants flying the British flag in New England. Time to move it along, children.
The flag shouldn’t come down “in response to hard pressure, soft logic, and a lot of yelling”? For what reason, pray tell, then, *should* the flag come down? Soft pressure? Hard logic? A little bit of yelling? When has “soft pressure” ever accomplished anything? What “hard, logical” reason would there ever be to take a flag down?
The “lot of yelling,” by the way, occurs because the flag represents a regime that regarded 30% of South Carolina’s people as subhuman. I’d be upset too if people clung to a symbol of my subhumanness.
“I’d be upset too if people clung to a symbol of my subhumanness.”
There. It looks to me like a straightforward application of the Golden Rule ought to solve this issue in about 10 seconds.
Below is a little more thoughtful take on the flag – pointing out that the confederate flag has been adopted by neo-fascist movements in Europe where the swastika has been banned – that’s right the confederate flag has been adopted as the back-up rascist flag in Europe. What Wilson fails to understand regarding symbolism is the effect of the symbol on a group of people who were systemically brutalized and enslaved. Of course all this is understandable since Wilson wrote a defense of Southern slavery – I suspect Wilson understands more than he lets on about how symbols work.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i8jjye/the-nightly-show-enough-already—confederate-flag-in-south-carolina—for-the-record
When I see the Confederate flag, rebellion, treason, and using the issue of state’s rights in order to defend owning Black people comes to mind. Actually, nothing good comes to mind when I see that flag.
The flag was “taken down” years ago. It is in a memorial spot in the state house grounds as are other historical items from our SC history.
Thoughts 1) Jesus disciples included Matthew the tax collector, servant of the Romans and Simon the Zealot, a member of a group dedicated to violently ending that rule. Maybe it is possible for Christians to have extremely different political opinions? 2) This whole discussion seems like a misdirection. Charleston ended in justice (as far as man can achieve) and forgiveness, not riots. Jesus provides true reconciliation. That is something that the media doesn’t want to focus on. 3) The attempt to remove all traces of the Confederacy from the South has been going on apace. The Confederate Daughters of America… Read more »
Look, just tell people that the Confederate flag is trans-symboled, and no longer identifies as the emblem of race-hatred and skin-pigment-based oppression.
And that it really doesn’t appreciate being othered by cis-symbolist oppressors who refuse to let it embrace its true identity as a symbol of Southerners’ free spirits (or whatever).
I think you will find this apropos
Symbols as sign of deference to power http://thefutureprimaeval.net/we-support-diversity-and-equality/
I like the contrast in the Berlin 1937 and Berlin 1945 photos.
Keep good hear; God is not mocked and He is showing us a great thing.