A Nine-Pound Sledge in the Freezer

As many of you know, some of the CMP videos had been blocked by a judge, but a few days ago someone — another hero — hacked the videos that had been withheld from us, and they are now available. I have embedded one of them. In the course of the video, the presenter reads some quotations from various abortionists, working the lucrative fields of the second trimester.

There are any number of appalling things here, but I would recommend that you pay particular to the section beginning at 9:28. This is the clip where the abortionist being cited described the eyeballs of the child falling into her lap, read in such a way as to draw laughter and applause. Laughter and applause.

Now these are people who make their living chopping babies into pieces, and they have come to a conference, and they are participating in a workshop at that conference, and the  workshop is dedicated to helping them to feel sorry for themselves. They are trying to figure out how to cope. They are dealing with the stigma. Let us feel sorry for the abortionist who had eyeballs fall into the lap, but we must never allow ourselves to feel sorrow for the child who will never see anything out of those eyes.

Not only so, elsewhere in the video, the enemies of their ghoulishness are charged with “obstinacy” and “obstructionism.” Yeah, that would be us.

This particular segment highlights the actual problem, the problem that lies right at the heart of our national life. Watch the seconds following 9:28 over again. The problem here is, pure and simple, hardness of heart. This is not an intellectual problem. This is not a problem that medical science can solve. Medical science has a limited focus, and cannot tell you that you must repent of your bloodlust and believe in the Lord Jesus. But that is absolutely what must happen here. This is not a problem of the intellectual. This is an issue of moral rebellion. It is a matter of the heart.

Meditate on this. We have had one damning video after another, and the practitioners of this vile trade have been exposed as people who know full well what they are doing, and there is still a public debate over it. Planned Parenthood is still subsidized by the Congress of these United States. At our last local protest against Planned Parenthood, a significant number of counter-protesters showed up this time with their pink signs. They were willing to stand out in God’s sunshine and say that they wanted to “stand” with Planned Parenthood. They were able to stand in the first place because some years ago, their respective mothers decided not to exercise their constitutional option of cutting off their legs.

This is no longer a debatable matter, but that plain fact has not halted the debate. What do you call it when that happens? Our national heart is stone cold dead. We are dead in our trespasses and sins. Thankfully, there are still many individuals who are calling the nation to repentance, but it is the nation collectively that must repent. What is our national heart like? It is as though someone sawed the head off a nine-pound sledge hammer, wrapped it in three layers of tinfoil and put it in the back of the freezer for forty years. That is where we are. That is who we now are, and there is no sense pretending otherwise.

We do not need, in the first instance, to legislate. We do not need, in the first instance, to repeal. We do not need, in the first instance, to reform. We do not need, in the first instance, to withdraw subsidies. The very first thing we must do is repent of our insolence before the God of Heaven. The first order of business is repentance. Lady Wisdom in Proverbs says that all who hate her love death (Prov. 8:36). That is why we are here. America, through her elected and appointed representatives, has solemnly embraced folly, sin, iniquity, death, and hardness of heart.

Not only so, but Christians who stand against those who have turned our nation into a vast charnel house must learn to make our appeal in terms of repentance. But we don’t like speaking this way because it reveals our absolute  helplessness. We can legislate. We can repeal. We can subsidize or not. We think we have options. But repentance is a gift of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25). And if He determines not to give that gift, we will be left to the desolations of His entirely just condemnation.

As mentioned, Lady Wisdom says that those who hate her love death. But that is not the only thing that the passage says. She also says that those who sin against her wrong their own soul. America has sinned against God, against the millions of slaughtered children, but also against her own soul.

And we need to be told that there is no way for us to get it back. It is utterly beyond our reach. We are helpless, entirely impotent. If we want our soul back, we must receive it as a gift. And God has never given that gift to the unrepentant.

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John
Member

Just -“Thank you.”

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Don’t forget, y’all, to download the videos now so when they get pulled and everybody is shrugging their shoulders and saying “What videos? I don’t see any videos”, you’ll have something to show them.

You can go to keepvid.com and paste the youtube URL or, alternatively, just type in the letters “ss” before “youtube” in the URL.

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hf3pvZW9c
becomes
https://www.ssyoutube.com/watch?v=J9hf3pvZW9c

Ian Miller
Member

Thank you. Good reminder.

Jeff Wright
Guest
Jeff Wright

Can you provide links to the specific videos that were released? Having those I would follow the strategy.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

I don’t think disqus would like it if a comment had 20 some-odd links in it – it’d probably flag as spam. For now, you should be able to go here and see a playlist: Investigative Footage: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_S490a2o7lTPt1CNEpI37RJO7JOcS2Rs The way I did it was to open up a separate tab with keepvid on it and I right-clicked on each video – copied the URL – and pasted it to keepvid. And here’s the other videos, same procedure: babymeat: PP videos courts tried to censor leaked [GotNews Exclusive]: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJCNTv4YXhz2JbXxCADboQK_kvOAbxxHK When I have more time I may post all the links to… Read more »

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

And there was at least one video that keepvid wouldn’t download. I think it was flagged as “disturbing” or something. That’s when the “ss” trick worked.

duellsquimby
Member

I will check back tonight with a big, big, drive. My thanks to Doug and you!

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

I think it was around 15 GB total so far. Of course it’s the “full footage” videos that take up the most space.

duellsquimby
Member

So is this all that they had to send to congress? I’ll start pulling it down. Thanks again.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

I’m not sure what all got sent to congress. The unauthorized videos were at least some of the ones in question, and I suppose that CMP has more footage besides what’s out there now.

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

Ok, I could make an html file with deep links to the actual mp4 files, but I don’t want to risk google shutting down my YouTube account. But here’s the list of all the videos that CMP has released so far. This is not a “playlist” created by some youtube user, rather it is youtube’s official list of videos that CMP has uploaded and made public (CMP might have some other videos that are unlisted or private). One at a time, right click on each video on this page and select “Copy Link Location” (at least that’s what it says… Read more »

Jeff Wright
Guest
Jeff Wright

Thanks! That’s helpful.

Benjamin Bowman
Guest

The particular part that Doug is talking about is an incredible and horrifying example of the impact of sin. How it twists and distorts women to hate women and their children under the guise of “care.”

KJQ
Guest
KJQ

It is clear to any Christian with eyes to see that the entire western world is under God’s chastening hand, not just the US. He has turned us over to our depravity. We need to get on our hands and knees and pray fervently for God to have mercy upon us and turn us back to Him. Our current path is clearly towards destruction.

drewnchick
Member

Egypt
Assyria
Persia
Media
Greece
Rome
Spain
Mongolia
China
Russia
Japan
Germany
Britain

…USA

Anyone want to bet against history repeating itself?

timothy
Guest
timothy

I do, based on the covenant our Founder’s made with God at our founding. While this generation has broken that covenant, God cannot break his covenant and He will restore us to be in right order to what we agreed to.

josh
Guest
josh

What covenant has God made with our Founders?

timothy
Guest
timothy

Our founders made it with God. (iirc)

Miffy
Guest
Miffy

Thank you

Rich Dailey
Guest

Let us not forget that we were ordered by a court judge not to view or listen to the videos. How do you feel about that?

jigawatt
Guest
jigawatt

we were ordered by a court judge not to view or listen to the videos

[citation needed]

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

No, That’s not what the order said at all. It said they couldn’t be released. They weren’t released. They were hacked.

Christopher
Member

And released by the hacker.

drewnchick
Member

Who was not under that judge’s jurisdiction…

And so what, anyway? What makes a judge’s asinine proclamation more important than exposing and preventing the wholesale slaughter of babies?!

Christopher
Member

The slaughter of babies should be exposed regardless of what any judge in any jurisdiction says.

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Nice red herring, but no. They weren’t “released.” They were stolen and put up for viewing by a hacker. Big difference.

Christopher
Member

Not really.

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Yes. Really.

Christopher
Member

The videos are available for viewing as they would be if they hadn’t been ordered not to be released. I don’t see a big difference.

Tim Paul
Guest
Tim Paul

So? To hell with with corrupt judges.

drewnchick
Member

There was no judge with any jurisdiction over me or any judicial standing who said that. And so far as I can tell, I am not beholden to any ol’ judge out there, but only to the ones who have and wield proper authority where I live.

And what’s your point, anyway? Babies are butchered and you want to quibble over who watched what and when?? Folly!

Jeff Wright
Guest
Jeff Wright

I feel “civil disobedience.”

timothy
Guest
timothy

Idiomatic-Antithesis–the Spirit of the law vs the letter of the law is in play here.

On The Lam for Jesus touches on the doctrine. We are at the point where Christians have chosen to serve God against the immoral dictates of a murderous and evil people.

asdf
Guest
asdf

Comes now someone who thinks you’re a racist for saying “these United States” at any point after the 1860s.

Wendy Sensing
Guest
Wendy Sensing

Amen!

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Pastor Wilson calls someone who committed the act of hacking (illegal in itself) in order to make available videos sequestered by court order a “hero”. That’s flat crazy.

Romans 13 only applies when we agree with the law, I guess?

ashv
Guest
ashv

Was George Washington a hero?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I am not convinced he was. And the Tea Partyers were vandals.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Fair enough, I have a lot of sympathy for that view.

Was Ehud a hero?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Ehud lived in a theocracy which had been given an express and Divine mandate about possessing the land. A good number of, if not entirely all, bets off in that case.

Spencer Robinson
Guest

But then we have the midwives in Exodus. I’m not saying we shouldn’t follow the law, but where is the line and when do we draw it? This is just an interesting link.

http://derekzrishmawy.com/2015/07/31/straining-gnats-and-siding-with-pharaoh-over-the-midwives/

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I think the pertinent thing in recognizing the line is in the 1)immediacy and 2)magnitude of the consequence.

One who disobeys the law to prevent a particular life in one’s particular situation from being unjustly taken is a hero.

One who disobeys a law to make available (arguably) redundant information to give (arguably) minor aid to the right side of [a legitimate moral cause] is just a lawbreaker.

RFB
Guest
RFB

“One who disobeys the law to prevent a particular life in one’s particular situation from being unjustly taken is a hero.
One who disobeys a law to make available (arguably) redundant information to give (arguably) minor aid to the right side of a culture war is just a lawbreaker.”

That might be your standard. What makes it “The Standard”.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

The instances and instructions I can think of from the OT/NT all fall right along that line.

RFB
Guest
RFB

“…the right side of a culture war…”

And, just because you characterize actions taken to reduce and ultimately eliminate wholesale murder as nothing more than a “culture war” does not make it so.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I didn’t consciously mean to minimize the pro-life cause by that term. I’ll strike it.

drewnchick
Member

You call someone who gives minor aid to the right side of a culture war a “lawbreaker” in the context calling Wilson “flat crazy” for labeling this person a hero. By what standard do you limit the definition of “hero” to a particular life in a particular situation? Why isn’t Wilson’s definition more appropriate and yours “flat crazy”? Indeed, why would you consider anyone who shines an exposing light on the atrocities of baby butchering anything short of “hero”? Why would the issuance of a judge’s order —NOT LAW, BY THE WAY–be of paramount importance in this matter? Are you… Read more »

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I don’t call Wilson flat crazy, I call one of his utterances crazy.

Judicial order has some force of law, certainly. But more pertinently falls under the higher power category articulated by St.Paul.

Yes, I’m well. And calm. :)

drewnchick
Member

I’m pretty certain Paul would not be in favor of obeying an American judge who declared that we are not to engage in the war against the baby butchers. I rather think Paul would be writing some scathing Scritpture about so-called Christians who sat on their butts because some damned judge told them to.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Then you’ll have to help me out, Malachi, because I do not understand why you and Wilson do not support direct illegal intervention to save lives immediately, i.e. bulldozing or blockading abortion clinics, etc. Why is the hacking ok and not this? We Christians could seriously hamper abortion efforts today if we were willing to walk down to the local clinic and risk arrest by damaging equipment and facilities. Why shouldn’t we? Just because it is illegal?

And do you really feel it is appropriate to suggest that I take the Lord’s name in vain?

drewnchick
Member

I’m afraid you’ve jumped to an illogical conclusion. What suggests that I am not in favor of bulldozing abortion mills as well?
To be sure, the consequences of mass destruction would likely be very different than what we might expect from mass subterfuge. But you seem to be making the point that we should keep mum and do nothing…because we were told to. So, help me understand why this isn’t a bizarre position to hold.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Fair enough. Why aren’t you out somewhere with a bulldozer, or at least a sledghammer?

I’m not arguing we sit and do nothing. There’s plenty that has been and can be done with the legally available videos. The activists are active, and they get a heartfelt “good on ya” from me.

So I see nothing bizarre in advocating adherence to the law and obedience to the higher powers except in the instances commanded or modeled in scripture.

drewnchick
Member

And what suggests that I’m in favor of bulldozing…? And even if I were, why does that mean I must be manning the thing personally? What are you really trying to get at here? You ARE arguing, in this case, that everybody keep quiet and obey the judge, who has absolutely no jurisdiction over about 350 million people. But if you can’t see that the principle of “we must obey God rather than man”–spoken in the context of a judge telling Christians to stop talking about Jesus–is a perfect model for this situation, then I think it my be reasonable… Read more »

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Does the judge have jurisdiction over the owners/producers of the video? Does a hacker have any legal right to them. When we start arguing allegience to a higher authority as justification for access to redundant information, we entirely negate Romans 13. I further suggest that if you do not advocate for the sabatoge of clinics, you are inconsistent with your own views, and and that if you do advocate for them but do not personally facilitate said sabatoge and merely cheer hackers and other risk takers from your safe seat behind the keyboard, well that description makes its own commentary.… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

If I was a hacker and had access to the videos, darn straight I would break the law and release them. There is another tangent here. You are assuming good faith on the part of these godless magistrates. I think that assumption is good when a nation and people are godly. I think it is wrong to assume good will in these evil days. You are a few years behind the curve Mr. Oestreich. Faithful Christians have been calling this for years now. Are you familiar with Anne Barnhard for example? While you are lecturing us, the lecturing from her… Read more »

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Actually timothy, I’m about 2000 years behind the curve. #paleoevangelical

timothy
Guest
timothy

Your thinking on the matter is not impressive; others do a better job and arrive at diametrically opposed conclusions.

Perhaps you should take a dialectic approach? Your rhetoric has clearly failed to win the day.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Thanks for your assessment. I’ll let every reader come to their own conclusion and leave the declaration of winners and losers to you. :)

timothy
Guest
timothy

We know it is God who is in charge; the question is how he expects us to act. In my opinion, you are acting as we should act when a minority 2000 years ago. We have the example of His work in at least two civilizations as part of Church history; I see that building as His work in bringing all authority under Him; you apparently do not.

Have you met Rod Dreher? Perhaps you two should go be monks in the Catskill catacombs and wait this one out.

timothy
Guest
timothy

The Lord will lead; we will not act until He does. He is showing us the justification for His coming judgment upon these people. Wether or not we are to be the instruments of that judgement is entirely up to Him. Currently, the Holy Spirit says sit and wait, listen a pray. A catholic prophet I follow predicts these people will be destroying themselves anon. We can see that they have already destroyed themselves morally. They are cut off from God and any nudge from Him will destroy them. Look at them. Look how well-dressed, fed and prosperous they are.… Read more »

Matt Massingill
Guest
Matt Massingill

David, it’s a fair enough point to ask where the line ought to be drawn, but we need to establish principles before going down the road of trying to establish where every last line is drawn in practice. All you’re doing is intimating that anything less than a servile understanding of Romans 13 is blind, sinful lawlessness. You started out by asking if Romans 13 only applied when we agreed with the law. I have three responses to that: 1) That charge implies that the willingness to skirt laws in this case are premised solely or primarily on mere “disagreement”… Read more »

hans
Guest
hans

Because now you are wilfully damaging someone else’s property

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Courts have no power in our system to make law, only implement existing law. What law protects those who would hide vital information from the public regarding those who wantonly slaughter the judicially innocent for profit?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Surely you’ve heard the word injunction and recognize it as a legitimate part of our legal system.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/injunction

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Surely you’ve read the Constitution and are aware that the legislative authority is vested in Congress, not the courts.

http://constitution.org/constit_.htm

ashv
Guest
ashv

One step at a time. Lynching abortionists will be more acceptable if there’s a wider understanding of their character and behaviour.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

That kind of talk will do nothing to allay any fears that there is a “baptized” lawlessness underneath what’s being advocated for here
.

drewnchick
Member

Please explain what you would have told the Apostle Peter when a legitimate authority told him to quit preaching Christ…you know, had you been there to counsel him in his civil disobedience.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Do I really need to spell out the New Testament rules for civil disobedience here? Laws against preaching Christ are the first laws to break.

drewnchick
Member

And judicial rulings against exposing the words, actions, and motivations of baby butchers are not commands to be ignored?
I really feel like you’re straining out gnats, here, bro.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

That’s “so-called bro” to you.

I’ll let your opinion as to my insect-straining stand. I agree with the substance of Wilson’s evaluation of where we are morally as a nation (with the exception of his notion of a collective soul), I just think it’s reckless to call the hacker a hero.

RFB
Guest
RFB

Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

ashv
Guest
ashv

As far as I can tell the main reason to not start killing abortionists today is strategy; we don’t have the numbers or the organization to do a thorough job. Which is more lawless: executing murderers, or advocating for letting them continue to murder untroubled?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

You see no third alternative to those two?

I advocate for troubling them. With the Gospel. With the preaching of the Law and of Grace. With calls to repent and believe.

drewnchick
Member

…and exposing their atrocities to the sleepy masses, especially when the ungodly prefer it all remain hush-hush.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Which can be done legally.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Certainly we should not cease doing that; Pastor Wilson and many others have been faithful in that work. But let’s remember what national repentance looks like in the Bible — in one memorable instance, Elijah, after calling for Israel to repent and believe, slaughtered 450 prophets of Baal at the brook Kishon.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I’m not sure I believe in national repentance for nations that are not in Covenant with God. Although, Ninevah.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Now I’m confused. Are you saying that Nineveh was in covenant with God?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

No, I’m saying Ninevah may be a case I don’t account for well in my leanings.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

What are you specifically? Maybe you’ve said and I haven’t seen it, so indulge me if you will.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Northwest Ohio.

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

I’m not sure if that means you misunderstood me or if you decline to answer. In case it was the former (of course you can affirm if you meant the latter), I meant the leanings to which you referred. I was thinking in terms of “where you’re from”, yes, but in the sense of theology, philosophy, etc. Your leanings.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I misunderstood. I have a fundamentalist background, which I believe I’m leaving behind. That shall likely be judged at a later point. I do have strong Two Kingdom leanings. I guess that might be in reaction to the excesses of my former fundamentalist context. Ironic the similarities between the post-mil covenanters and the pre-mil dispensationalists. Anyway, my 2K sympathies might cause one (if not myself) to beg the question as to why I crusade (heh) on an “every square inch” blog. Does that help?

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Yes, it does. Thanks. Because where better for you to crusade? :)

timothy
Guest
timothy

I do have strong Two Kingdom leanings.

You would be the second commenter here with those leanings. This explains much.

David
Guest
David

One reason that this site would never advocate trashing abortion clinics and killing doctors who commit abortions is that these violate two of the ten commandments.

Further, God has an agency that is supposed to bring retribution on murderers – the civil magistrate. That is God’s minister in this regard, and not some vigilante.

If you believe that what I wrote is a reversible truth claim with respect to the release of these videos, please make the case.

Efigee
Guest
Efigee

Good thing this isn’t 80 years ago and you with Jewish neighbors.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Nice, but you haven’t read me thoroughly, apparently. I stated above I believe it is appropriate to break the law to save the life of a neighbor.

drewnchick
Member

But why do you believe this? What is your Scriptural basis for it? Did any of the Apostles break the law to save a particular life in their particular situation, and does Scripture make it clear that they were to be commended for this?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Rahab. The Egyptian midwives. The saints who let Paul down out the window in a basket.

drewnchick
Member

Right. And God has also sanctioned lying, theft, and various political machinations among His people to achieve the greater good. So it really puzzles me why you’re so hung up with the idea of swiping a video and showing it to the world.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I’m hung up on what seems to be an “ends justifies the means” mentality being legitimized by a stamp of Christian piety.

drewnchick
Member

Oh…well, that changes the whole conversation! Would that you had been more forthcoming from the start!!

David
Guest
David

God’s law our current law in the US?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Sorry, I don’t understand the question.

David
Guest
David

Sorry. I’m asking whether you were stating that it’s okay to break God’s law to save a life, or a civil law which may or may not be biblical.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I refer to man’s laws, but I cannot think of a “biblical” civil law that would need to be broken to prevent the unjust taking of a life.

Nord357
Guest
Nord357

Your parameters seem to condemn Bonhoeffer. I wouldn’t be able to agree with them.

Darren
Guest
Darren

Daniel & friends. Daniel went home flung the windows open & prayed, but faced the music afterwards. Same with his friends a couple of chapters earlier. There are a few occasions where we do go against tyrannical laws, but also willingly face the consequences for doing so & leave the results to God.

The rest of Daniel, reinforces Rom 13, all civil authorities are put there by God. Even bad ones. So, we pay our taxes etc. and obey silly laws. But not evil ones.

jesuguru
Guest
jesuguru

Just read that passage today. Amen!

Jane
Member

The midwives may throw a monkey wrench this one, too, though. They didn’t march up to Pharaoh and say, “Yep! We ignored your command and saved the babies.” They made up a cock and bull story that the paranoid Pharaoh was willing to buy, about how Hebrew babies get birthed so fast that they didn’t get time to smother them before Mom noticed they were alive. The distinction may be that it was an ongoing war, and they didn’t want to risk having Egyptian midwives put in charge after they were executed, or some such thing. In Daniel’s case, it… Read more »

Job
Guest
Job

William Tell is a national hero and he assassinated a magistrate. Vlad Tepes is a national hero and he impaled thousands of men on poles. Being a hero does not imply that a person’s conduct is always lawful or good.

David
Guest
David

No, but that passage does not teach anything contrary to the passage in Acts where Peter defied the Jewish authorities, asking the rhetorical question as to whether it was more right to obey God rather than men.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

David, we are not being told we can no more preach in His name (as Peter was). We are not being told we must ourselves commit sin.

David
Guest
David

Dear David,

I simply brought up this verse to indicate that I don’t believe that a reference to Romans 13 would provide a clear and convincing prima facie condemnation of the hacker releasing the video that the judge tried to contain….since its video evidence of premeditated murder for hire as well as abuse of a corpse.

jesuguru
Guest
jesuguru

Exactly this. In our division of powers, Congress is the body responsible for the formation and protection of laws. I’m willing to guess that a large (though sadly not decisive) proportion of them would not be complaining to the degree that Mr. Oestreich is about the manner in which these videos were released. If it’s not a problem for our federal legislators, why for him?

Jane
Member

That depends on whether quietly assenting to complicity in the suppression of real evidence of the breaking of real civil and moral law is sin.

John
Member

So the photos Jews managed to smuggle out of the death camps should have been avoided because they broke Nazi law? We need to stand up to this instead of arguing . And no Romans 13 doesn’t apply here, unless you are comfortable with the continued butchering.

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

I think we agree on standing up. The argument is how it might be proper to do so.

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Romans 13 only applies when the minister is one who rewards good and avenges evil. When it is the opposite then that is a problem according to the actual context, no?

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Lawlessness. You’re advocating lawlessness. Your singular context renders Romans 13 meaningless. No human government executes its mission perfectly. That does not excuse disobedience to every law deemed unbiblical.

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

No, I’m advocating the rule of higher law. No one is calling for anarchy. I am calling for lawful civil disobedience of a tyrant. Big Difference. This has nothing to do with “perfection of execution.” It has to do with the wanton violation of God’s clear meaning and intent of the law and the deliberate abuse of His word to justify that. Romans 13 has never meant that anything the civil magistrate says goes. The context is clear the minister is God’s servant for our good. So, our good requires that babies should be murdered and those who perform it… Read more »

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Wasn’t the Roman emperor that Paul faced a tyrant? Didn’t he wontonly violate God’s clear intent? But Paul was subject. And commanded others to be as well.

Let the heathen rage. Their judge is coming.

And I’m all for the scrutiny. Let’s bring it to them. But via legal means and in violation of no court injunctions.

Chuck Michaelis
Guest
Chuck Michaelis

Yes, and Paul also regularly defied the civil authority because they were not “ministers for our good.” And I have no problem with violating extra-constitutional injunctions since, according th the Supreme Court “…a law repugnant to the Constitution is no law at all…”

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Examples? I think you will find they are exclusively instances in which he refused to stop preaching Christ. Not social injustice. Not brutality. Not anything besides preaching the gospel or escaping to continue doing so. I will happily consider an instance I am not recalling that falls outside that limit.

Jay Dean Niemeyer
Guest
Jay Dean Niemeyer

Mr. Oestreich, the citizens and subjugated people under the Roman Empire had very little effectual political power. Here, we can potentially act in such a way as to change policy through elections, referenda, etc., and literally save thousands of lives. One of the most important means of releasing this potentiality is via the dissemination of information. The videos – and the latest one in particular – are vitally important sources for the pro-life cause. These can be used to graphically inform those that might be in the dark about the nature of what’s going on in the abortion industry that… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Pinch of incense as the Emporer paraded by…. The pagans regularly discarded their babies as a form of post-birth control; the Christians where known (from what I have read) for rescuing these children. If there was a law saying it was illegal to rescue those children, you would condemn us for breaking it. A hundred years pass….the pagans are now weak and dissolute, the fruits of their sin are killing them as dead as your pathetic argument, the Christians are now a significant minority in their home. You advocate they submit to the rule of the damned. They, thankfully, look… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

C.S. Lewis had some knowledge you lack. In Perelandra it was Ransom who came to the realization that the Archon expected him (Ransom) to kill the Un-man. Ransom then did that with his bare hands. C.S. Lewis knew something about our relationship to God and our duty regarding evil that you do not know. Comparing the two viewpoints, we can judge the quality of the view by the fruits of the “men” making the arguments. One has created lasting, beautiful, glorious fruit the other is late 20’th century 501(c) Christianity(tm) . One is a flowering branch, the other looks ready… Read more »

Jane
Member

Lewis is of course not authoritative, but if he is correct, then the whole “I’ll just follow a strictly scrupulous view of obeying every jot and tittle of everything every authority wants me to do, and ‘leave the consequences up to God'” is bosh. The question is whether he’s correct. Like you, I think the scriptural example leans more in favor of knowing when righteousness calls us to take the civil or familial law into our own hands, than in the direction of Elsie Dinsmore moral reasoning.

Ian Miller
Member

I have to smile at the well-done put down of Elsie Dinsmore. :)

Jane
Member

Ian, I pretty much never miss a chance to put down Elsie Dinsmore. :-P

Ian Miller
Member

Well, many people put her down (okay, maybe not many, but very few who know of the series will plump for it), but yours was nicely sideswiped. :) Points for style!

Jane
Member

Fewer do than should, though. I wound up reading much of the series because some Christian resource catalog or other was touting it as a wonderful edifying read for girls, so I bought several volumes. I’m so glad I read them before giving them to my girls.

Then I threw them away, instead of giving them away or reselling them.

Ian Miller
Member

They are really dreadful. Mistaking masochism as virtue is never healthy.

Jill Smith
Member

Jane, Jane, I am shocked and appalled. You did not page-turn avidly through 28 volumes of unrevised, uncensored Elsie? What was there not to love? The scene where Pa Dinsmore says he would rather lose half his fortune than think of his daughter being kissed by anyone but him? The one where the elderly Mr. Travilla seeks Elsie’s hand in marriage, having hopelessly loved her since she was eight? Or was it the one where Elsie reassures the dying slave that we will “all be white” in Heaven? All 28 books are free online, and I read them all once… Read more »

Ian Miller
Member

I bailed on the series at the tender age of 12 or so when the elderly husband died. I was confused what the point was supposed to be in the first place, and that just made it even more pointless.

Steven Opp
Guest
Steven Opp

Would you hide a Jew in your barn or turn him over to the Nazis?

hhtuck
Member
hhtuck

And if the Nazis came to your house and asked if you were hiding any Jews in your attic, you better fess up! Romans 13!

David Oestreich
Guest
David Oestreich

Jay, you might take the time to read the rest of this conversation.

Phillip A
Guest
Phillip A

Furthermore, that “hero” is one Andrew Aurenheimer, alias “weev”, convicted felon and former head of the troll/hacker group known as the “Gay N—er Association of America”

ashv
Guest
ashv

Pastor Wilson:
you say “our national heart”, “calling the nation to repentance”, etc. Which nation? Who’s “we”? At this point, being under the jurisdiction of the USA federal government sure doesn’t seem to be enough to qualify as a “nation”.

timothy
Guest
timothy

I too am not part of the ‘our’. God has been calling out His people for years now and they are removing themselves from ‘them’.

ashv
Guest
ashv

I think it’s a valid way to discuss things, just so long as everyone’s clear on which group or groups are being discussed.

Ree Coulbourne
Guest
Ree Coulbourne

And let’s not let them take pink as their color. Let’s show up in light blue and pink, in large numbers. We will not forget.

RFB
Guest
RFB

Good on you, Esther.

mekt75
Member

That is a German accent. I would ask what camp her grandfathers worked at

Luke
Guest
Luke

There is somber truth here. In one of those 12 little prophetic works that Christians never get around to reading, Habakkuk cries out “So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted.” Change the law all you want. We already have many just laws on the books that do nothing. So long as it is administered in wickedness, just laws can do nothing. The gospel is the only weapon we ever really had, and now it is finally the only one we have left, so maybe now we… Read more »

Efigee
Guest
Efigee

“Give us aid against the enemy,
for human help is worthless.
12 With God we will gain the victory,
and he will trample down our enemies.” Ps 60

Tony
Guest

Thanks for this article Pastor.

sixpackmom
Guest
sixpackmom

oh that is just sickening. how can they laugh. she even said she looked at these ‘baby fetuses’…considered what was ” once alive and now is dead”??!!

insanitybytes22
Member

“This is not a problem of the intellectual. This is an issue of moral rebellion. It is a matter of the heart.”

Amen! Thank you for saying that so well.

valerieab
Member

“But repentance is a gift of God. And if He determines not to give that gift, we will be left to the desolations of His entirely just condemnation.”

So we oughta be praying for it with the torrid temerity of a toddler in a Toys-R-Us.

drewnchick
Member

Also, love the alliteration!

John Barry
Guest
John Barry

Only if God gives us praying.

duellsquimby
Member

What a mental picture! :)

Krychek_2
Guest
Krychek_2

If it’s any consolation, the State of Texas just raided four Planned Parenthood clinics and took personal information on patients and staff members. Your side isn’t dead just yet.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

“My aim is usually to get the specimens out pretty intact,” says Dermish, who said she sometimes uses ultrasound guidance to convert a 2nd-trimester fetus to a feet-first breech presentation: “Especially the 20-weekers are a lot harder versus the 18-weekers, so at that point I’ll switch to breech.” http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/doctor-in-new-planned-parenthood-video-strives-for-intact-fetal-heads/article/2574992 Hmmmm. Alter timing, method or procedure solely to obtain parts? Er . . . uh . . . I meant . . . ah . . . specimens. Yes, that’s it! Specimens. Where to begin? “Oh, bother!” Wasn’t that what Pooh Bear said when things did not turn as he planned?… Read more »

libertyinmo
Guest
libertyinmo

25 years ago at a pro-life rally in front of a “Lutheran” hospital that did abortions, a reformed minister made the point that the same mindset of humans who abort was the mindset behind the practice of all birth control and that when Christians adopted the view that birth control was permissible for Christians, we opened the door to abortion.

ashv
Guest
ashv

Explain that one to me. Is it the same mindset behind celibacy too?

Leslie Sneddon
Guest
Leslie Sneddon

AMEN AND AMEN!

Spamalot
Guest
Spamalot

Thank you for this. I’m sick of hearing that this murder is in the name of “rights”. What about the baby’s rights? Yeah I know – I’m preaching to the choir. Shared on FB and asked friends to download.