7 Questions for Those Who Want Money for People With Minds That Hate . . .

Let me get this straight.

1. You are the group that wants drivers working for FedEx and UPS to be unknowingly carrying around boxes with baby parts in them, babies who were killed for the sake of those parts, AND you want to be the enlightened, progressive group?Boxes

2. You are the party that wants lab workers to dump baby parts into pie plates, in order to sort through them carefully looking for the valuable bits, AND you want to be the liberals?

3. You are the faction who wants to keep us from showing mothers an ultrasound of their child, in order to keep that child alive, and you want to prevent those same mothers from seeing how you use the ultrasound (to avoid damaging the product), AND you want to be known as the ones in favor of the free flow of information?

4. You want to tell one group of people that we are just dealing with nondescript tissue and such, and you want to tell another group that you have livers, hearts, lungs, and limbs for sale, AND you want to be the party of intellectual consistency and forthrightness?

5. You want to be known as the group that thinks #blacklivesmatter, while you are the leading wholesaler of black people in America today, only you kill them first, with your prices much lower than 19th century prices were, AND you want to be the enlightened ones who are showing the way for us on matters of racial reconciliation?

6. You are the party of women’s rights and you agitate for protection for women, and yet with the exclamation #anotherboy, you reveal that you do in fact know that half of the bodies you are taking to market are female bodies, AND you want to be the feminists?

7. You are the group that has T-shirts reading “care no matter what,” and at the same time you are the merchants who fatten children for market, since 20 weekers bringing in more than the younger ones, AND you don’t want to be the witches straight out of medieval tales?

All I can tell is brother you have to wait.

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Brandon Klassen
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Brandon Klassen

Wait…are you telling me that the “progressive” party is inconsistent???

Whoda thunk it…?

Benjamin Bowman
Guest

Is putting baby parts in pie plates the best way you’ve learned to protect women’s rights?

David Trounce
Guest

Thanks Doug, this is very helpful. Especially point three. PP insists on the unedited version of the story. Great. Let’s have it. Let us and those women you abuse see those ultra sounds… All of them. Give us and them the unedited script for your abortion procedures… In writing before they sign.

Someone who doesn't hate libs
Guest
Someone who doesn't hate libs

I’m going to step out on a limb and say that I believe this article is condescending and unreasonable. I agree that abortion is terrible, but that doesn’t mean Democrats are terrible, and it doesn’t mean that Republicans (or, even, Republican Christians) are always… not terrible. If you want to change the world, do it out of love, mercy, faithfulness, and generosity. Not cynical sneering or spitting hate onto a group of people that believe differently than we.

David Trounce
Guest

Who are the “group of people who believe differently” and who are the “we” in your comment?

ashv
Guest
ashv

When Jesus called the Pharisees “whitewashed tombs”, did he do it out of love, mercy, faithfulness and generosity?

Was the commandment to put to death anyone who gave their child to Molech given to Israel by a God of love, mercy, faithfulness, and generosity?

Katecho
Member

Someone wrote: that doesn’t mean Democrats are terrible Wilson is addressing the terrible liberals and progressives in both parties now. Someone wrote: I believe this article is condescending and unreasonable. … If you want to change the world, do it out of love … Not cynical sneering or spitting hate onto a group of people that believe differently than we. Sneering? Spitting hate? Someone doth protest too much. It’s one thing to tut tut at the proprietor of this blog, but it’s another to demonstrate that he was spitting any hate. Someone didn’t make their case. I suspect Someone would… Read more »

holmegm
Guest
holmegm

God forgive me, I hate people who murder babies. And who cut them up and sell their parts.

Katecho
Member

Someone wrote:

If you want to change the world, do it out of love, mercy, faithfulness,
and generosity. Not cynical sneering or spitting hate onto a group of
people that believe differently than we.

Someone can show us how this is done by retracting the accusation that Wilson is sneering and spitting hate onto anyone. It’s the loving thing to do, right? Show us how it’s done. Someone needs to drop the accusatory tone and the spitting hate for people that believe differently than he/she. Right?

BooneCtyBeek
Guest
BooneCtyBeek

I didn’t read Republican or Democrat in the article at all. In fact, it was the Republican leader of the Senate who directed Failure Theater regarding the defunding of PP.

Job
Guest
Job

Your objections to this article demonstrate its effectiveness.

A. James
Member

How so?

Job
Guest
Job

It is a truism that concern trolls try to police their enemies’ effective tactics, not their ineffective ones.

Susan Gail
Member
Susan Gail

This response completely misses the point. Demonstrating logical fallacies inherent in the other sides position is not a political calculation, it is a moral one.

Why? Because we are debating GENOCIDE and wholesale mass murder, not something political like who has a better foreign trade position.

Nice does not enter the equation when dealing with 21st century death camps masquerading as women’s health clinics. Defense of the sodderkammondo’s feelings is inexcusable.

Don’t you know there’s a war on?

Bugs
Guest
Bugs

Well done Susan! People can cite legal history and precedents and construct arguments all day long…and totally get off the point in doing so.

john
Guest
john

I am assuming that you are pointing their inconsistencies? I would disagree! they are very consistent. Here is where we are after 42 years and over 58 million human beings being murdered in the most bestial way. The liberals, progressives, abortionists, whatever you want to call them , know there is one consistent thing that they can count on: Christians do not have the courage to stop them! – they kill babies- we blog – they get money from you to kill, then use it to kill babies – we give it up freely – they get money from companies,… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Correction. This is not about lack of courage, this is about private Christian citizens not being vigilantes. What have private Christians not done in the name of passively and peacefully trying to protect the unborn? We’ve tried every peaceful means, for decades, without giving up (except for McDivitt and his ilk). The only way that private Christian citizens can rightly end abortion by force is through representation by a legitimate subordinate civil authority (lesser magistrate) standing up and breaking ranks with the current regime by simple disobedience to them (or, if necessary, by a declaration of war/secession/independence). That is when… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Aren’t we, as free men, the Least of the Lesser Magistrates? By revolting, aren’t we declaring before God that we accept the mantle of leadership? Ah! Yes. Battle of Athens Tennessee 1946. WWII vets said, “enough of this noise”, armed themselves and restored order to the county. http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/athens.htm From http://lessermagistrate.com/ Is this story of individuals rising up (granted, a few “magistrates” showed up later, but they tend to be behind the curve) http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/bonner-county/2015/08/06/idaho-veteran-says-va-plans-to-sieze-his-guns-in-error/31248611/ (note the top pic with the preacher…) This is typical Christian American self-government. It is who we are. It is what God made us and serves, I… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Jesus gave instruction to His people in the first century who faced very similar kinds of political abuse and corruption (plus persecution). He pointed them directly away from vigilante behavior. Jesus showed that the way for private citizens to best subvert is to continue to do right and hold their peace (turn the other cheek) to make way for God’s appointed means. We need legitimate representation from a lesser magistrate when it comes to civil disobedience. Individualistic rebellion is a show of desperation on our part. It just looks like anger and popping off. It shows lack of any organization,… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi katecho, Thank you for your response. Christian’s under Imperial (?) Rome had no history as free men under our traditions. The whole “consent of the governed” idea is a consequence of the maturation of Christian thought regarding our status vis-a-vis our Creator and the proper role of government. We are under no obligation to relinquish that ground. I submit, doing so would be doing God a disservice in that we fail to maintain that which He has blessed us with. Furthermore, what I am seeing is in no way “individualistic” this is bottom-up, large scale rebellion against tyranny; He… Read more »

Barnabas
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Barnabas

I understand that living under an unjust administration is frustrating, particularly in light of current atrocities (though those are really being carried out by the citizens more than the government). But I would be very careful before I would throw out the example of the first century church. And this, “The whole “consent of the governed” idea is a consequence of the maturation of Christian thought regarding our status vis-a-vis our Creator and the proper role of government.” Do you realize how bold this claim is? Why couldn’t I say that gay rights are the consequence of the maturation of… Read more »

JohnM
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JohnM

I think you’re about right here, and I think katecho was earlier. I don’t however think Timothy was exactly making any claim for progressive revelation through social evolution. Not his phrase anyway, but he can affirm or deny if he chooses I suppose. Now, what are the ruled to do when they have no king, but rather a “ruler” who declares that the rules ultimately depend upon the will of the ruled, and even that the ruler has no legitimate authority unless the ruled consent to it? I mean, the Christian wants to honor the king, but the king is… Read more »

Barnabas
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Barnabas

I know that he wouldn’t use the phrase progressive revelation, I use that phrase to challenge the orthodoxy of the idea. To claim that ideas come through the maturing of Christian thought is to claim divine authority without having to show that the Church throughout history agrees with you and potentially without any clear scriptural mandate. Even if democracy were the best thing since sliced bread, I think that sort of theology is bad news. Your second point is well taken. Its like being stuck in a bad marriage. Luckily most people have no interaction with the king/president in their… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Barnabas wrote: Attacking the very idea of authority answerable only to God leads directly to attack on the authority of the father and husband. Without that authority there is no civilization, Christian or otherwise. This is very important. I wanted to add to this a side point about how our media, particularly Hollywood, portrays social change. There are some exceptions, but it is usually the individual hero who, one day, spontaneously snaps, or a small band of renegades who takes on the system and wins in miraculous confrontation. I want to point out that this is a false depiction. It’s… Read more »

Katecho
Member

I believe that what the ruled are to do is look for legitimate representation for change. This is in contrast to “every man for himself” rebellion, which is at the opposite end of the spectrum from covenantal and hierarchical representation that we see modeled in the institutions that God has established for social rule.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Do you realize how bold this claim is? America is a bold Christian country. We both know that sin enslaves, it does not liberate, it cannot liberate. Christ, does. What evidence do you have that Christian though matures rather than degrades? Ourselves. We know that He, working His way in us transforms our minds. As His body grows (i.e. as we increase and grow) He is proclaimed. We are a living expression of Him. I would flip your question around and assert that the lack of maturation and growth is evidence of a stale and tepid church. Why couldn’t I… Read more »

JohnM
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JohnM

“Any people led by mass media are shallow and defeatable. That we can see a thing and know a thing on our terms is a positive good..” Timothy, two things to consider there. 1) The open source revolution is not necessarily adding depth, in fact it can as easily have the opposite effect, especially if you throw social media into the definition. 2) Any time we start placing the emphasis on “our terms” we are treading on thin ice. I think I know what you mean, but what you should want is to know a thing objectively, which is not… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi JohnM

Any time we start placing the emphasis on “our terms” we are treading on thin ice.

You are correct, my term “our terms” is not helpful for what I intended to convey.I am thinking of the Protestant Revolution/Gutenberg where the “gatekeepers” could not ‘set the terms’ of what was written.

My words are not adequate…hmmmmmm….

Any suggestions?

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

Timothy,
What I understood you to mean was “we have access to information that is not moderated by the institutional controllers”. Something like that?

timothy
Guest
timothy

Yes, something like that. Examples in science are the robust critiques of Darwinian evolution by the Intelligent Design folks and the exposure of the fraud that is Global Warming ( now climate change) by competent, honest scientists, the explosion in college courses via distributed learning. Examples in econ are the non-keynesian views that are given an honest platform. Examples in Religion/faith is the Nx guys against the feminized sects or the platform of an obscure Calvinist from tater-city Idaho. Examples in Art is the discussion of and return to beauty, melody, form…. The cloak the various “priesthoods” use to cloud… Read more »

A. James
Member

We are learning more and more (along with the thoughts below in response to yours). This is all good or rather…interesting…perhaps alarming. Still gonna keep bringing these similarly related thoughts of T’s forward…if this is the overwhelming view of those on this blog or in Wilson/Wilson’s sphere, it’s…pretty important to understanding their efforts and goals… ———————–from past discussions: He built this nation, didn’t He? We are His people under His covenant in a land flowing with milk and honey that He gave to His people–the Body of Christ. We (His people) got it wrong “somewhere” but He is teaching us… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Alex, my views are my own. I submit them so that they may be examined and that I may learn from the wisdom and education of others. The only “goal” is the defense of the faith. My coming to Christ is via a direct, very personal fight with Him; there was no abstract thought involved. It was intense, more real than reality, personal, violent and very, very, very gracious on His part to redeem a rebellious ass like me. That violence has changed direction. Having once been directed at Him is now fiercely protective of the gift He gives us… Read more »

David Trounce
Guest

Sorry Barnabas, I am not picking on you but I have been musing over your comment the last couple of days and I keep imagining what it might sound like if the Apostle Peter had uttered it to the person being crucified next to him…. “…living under an unjust administration is frustrating, particularly in light of current atrocities…”.

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

If you wanted a man back then who understood the gravity the atrocities and was also a man of action Barabbas was your guy.

Katecho
Member

timothy wrote: Furthermore, what I am seeing is in no way “individualistic” this is bottom-up, large scale rebellion against tyranny I don’t disagree that there are many who see the oppression and the abuse. These videos are opening more eyes as well. This is reason for not striking out in desperation. If there really is a significant number who are ready to draw the line, then we should see this manifest in elected officials speaking out, and as representative disobedience, either at a city or state level. I’m actually hopeful that we could see this kind of confrontation soon. If… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi katecho This is reason for not striking out in desperation. Wholeheartedly agreed. God is illuminating the conscience and people are choosing who they will worship. God’s people are steadfastly His. then we should see this manifest in elected officials speaking out, and as representative disobedience, either at a city or state level. I’m actually hopeful that we could see this kind of confrontation soon. That would that be most welcome. I pray this happens. Civil officials (and military) officials have the same decision to make. My point is that we should not turn to violent or forceful means of… Read more »

Katecho
Member

A duty of self-defense (or family defense) is in an entirely different category (which is also connected up with the private non-violent disobedience toward the gun confiscations). Defense can become violent (active), but this is quite different from plotting to blow up an abortion clinic, or take out an abortion “doctor”. Some would rationalize murder of an abortionist on the grounds of “defense” of the unborn, but this is no different than a vigilante who rationalizes that taking the law into their own hands will save and defend future victims. Wilson has spoken on this subject before, but defensive violence… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Thank you. I concur with what you have written here. The term “offensive violence/force” is an improvement,. Legitimate government authority that lawfully used “offensive violence/force” to shut down those murderous thugs at PP would be a blessing. I believe that God will use the same “illumination of conscience” on this issue such that there will be no doubt as to His purpose for us. In the meantime, it is up to you lesser magistrate types to git-r-done; I earnestly hope that occurs. As to the sabre-rattling, I do. It’s intent is to focus their minds, wonderfully, at what they have… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

katecho, off topic I have forced the debate at vox place into a definition of my opponent’s terms. (where I will be employing your advice on what women can get away with in Dueteronomy at the approriate time) Since work will be moderately paced I was hoping you could observe each definition if/when I notify you of it. For example, there are several definitions of “The Law of The Lord Is Perfect” in the exchange one of which you can see here: http://voxday.blogspot.com/2015/06/bow-not-before-caesar.html?commentPage=5#c44105215952030962 I expect my working definition will be a subset of that. Is this too much for you?… Read more »

Katecho
Member

I read a few comments on either side and it wasn’t clear what the original point of contention was.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Don’t sweat it. Thank you for looking. I am gaining confidence at it as I work on it.

bethyada is giving me pointers via email too, so I am able to bounce ideas off of him as I work on that debate.

blessings,

t

Travis M. Childers
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Travis M. Childers

What if… …for the past 40 years, we have naively convinced ourselves, we who pride ourselves on really thinking through these matters, that as Christians our proper response is to stand by and watch an innocent person be murdered in cold blood? But not just one innocent person–tens of millions of them. Because we are to obey those in authority over us. Because Jesus would have done just as we have done, rendering unto Caesar and all. …we think we are waiting for “the right time to move together if the time for disobedience comes”, when in reality, we have… Read more »

Katecho
Member

The sort of emotional buildup that Childers is using is a form of guilt manipulation that can easily produce another Paul Hill or John Brown. I’m not saying the the issue is not a grave one, but God is not ashamed of us for not striking out in individual violence. That is absurd. We need to intercede for our nation collectively, and bear the nation’s guilt covenantally in prayer. We need to identify ourselves with the sin of abortion and the blood on this land, covenantally, to make effective intercession. But we don’t need to become vigilantes, or one-man heros.… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

We are not so apart in agreement, brother. I concur with most of what you’ve said in this response. You assumed, wrongly, that I was advocating vigilantism or any sort of violence at all, other than that which might become necessary as part of self-defense were we to intervene physically to prevent access to abortion centers. I am suggesting that Christians should be much more actively involved in preventing murder. I mean, we do call abortion murder, don’t we? Is that merely pious rhetoric? Do we not expect intervention of any sort possible if we see an innocent attacked on… Read more »

Katecho
Member

I appreciate the urgency of Childers’ comments. I just want to stand against any rhetoric that might incite individuals to strike out in emotional frustration. That would undermine the long-term goal. I can see that Childers understands this. Childers wrote: Collectively, as a body, we should be creatively doing absolutely everything we can to disallow the snuffing out of one more single life. What if, every single day, sufficient numbers of Christians were in place at centers for abortion all across the country to prevent the taking of innocent life? Agreed. However, I think the only way that this level… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

Let me first say that I have a difficult time following these threads once they go off in so many directions, and I don’t have the clearest understanding of why new comments are placed where they are, etc. Thus, I may be missing some relevant points that have been made on this issue. I don’t mean to ignore anyone’s input. Ok. I appreciate all that you’re saying. We seem to agree, but to be focusing on different aspects of the problem. My intent, going back to my original post, is to get us thinking more seriously about abortion as the… Read more »

Katecho
Member

I certainly agree that Christians need to devote more thought and training to the role of violence. We know that God has given the sword of His wrath to the civil magistrate, and not to individuals, as such. This is why Jesus calls His disciples to make way for God’s appointed means of wrath, and turn the other cheek as private citizens. Of course this is complicated by the fact that criminals can do a lot of damage before the civil magistrate catches up to the scene. The State has historically recognized this problem as well, and they retroactively deputize… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

You state very clearly the line of reasoning put forth by those in the church that have taken the time to think carefully through this issue. And it is entirely possible that the position is a correct one, a possibility strongly supported by a consensus of intelligent thinkers on the issue. However, I remain uneasy with the notion that laws must change before we become responsible to do more to stop abortion from taking place as it currently does, to the tune of a million lives a year. We already speak of the legitimacy of civil disobedience, so where is… Read more »

Katecho
Member

Childers wrote: I remain uneasy with the notion that laws must change before we become responsible to do more to stop abortion from taking place as it currently does, to the tune of a million lives a year. We already speak of the legitimacy of civil disobedience, so where is the line that must not be crossed? I appreciate Childers’ contribution as well. I can imagine a case where there would be no need to change the laws, from within the system, in order to stop abortion. For example, a State could fail, because of corruption or take-over by a… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

katecho wrote: If local lesser magistrates (or even leaders of the Church) were to start calling for widespread violent opposition to destroy abortuaries and anyone associated with them, I would seriously consider joining that cause with violence. However, I have no interest in that cause as a private individual, on my own authority. I defer to those God has put in places of authority. Glad to see this. Oh, that we had more leaders in the church that devoted hours in the dust in prayer, then rose from the dust and girded their loins, and prepared their flocks, for battle.… Read more »

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Travis and katecho.

What do you do when the women who are carrying the babies, who are visiting the abortuaries, want an abortion and hate you?

I.e. being slaves to sin, you are their enemy.

The discussion about tactics is interesting, but futile if the people involved want to destroy their children that are in their bodies.

timothy
Guest
timothy

Hi Travis, Instead of the country, reduce the dynamic to a family with a late teen son or daughter determined to reject God and pursue something other. Your daughter has routine abortions due to her sleeping with anybody in the hook-up culture. Your son does drugs and sodomy. Do the angels hang their heads in shame at your failure to act? No. They pray, with us that repentance and grace may reach your son and daughter. Now zoom out to the country. I think we have been doing what we can the best we can. He has not left us,… Read more »

Travis M. Childers
Guest
Travis M. Childers

Timothy, Reducing the dynamic to the family in no way changes the issue, and I’m afraid that neither does it illustrate what you seem to think it does. In your hypothetical situation, I believe I would do everything in my power to prevent my daughter (I assume she is unmarried, and thus still Biblically still under my authority) from continuing to commit murder through abortion. (And to address briefly another idea that has been mentioned here, I will affirm that I consider women that have abortions just as culpable of murder as the doctors and others who perform them. They… Read more »

john
Guest
john

thank you for your response and for articulating my main point very well. Unless, I am
misinformed, in the last 38 years, I am not aware of any lesser magistrate or body of
them that have had the christian courage to say no to an unlawful order that allows the
murder of human beings. perhaps in the next 40 years and after millions of more abortions,
maybe that will happen.

A. James
Member

In considering your comment, I came upon this:
“Baby Parts for Sale
A batch of eyes by UPS – 30 livers by FedEx”
No, this news and testimonial and cause for outrage is not from today…over 10 years old…http://www.lifeissues.org/connector/99jul.html

timothy
Guest
timothy

There are a few at the county level.

ashv
Guest
ashv

As the old saying goes: “one fool can throw a stone in a well that a hundred wise men cannot remove.” We are subject to unrighteousness in high places, but we can’t achieve a righteous society by wicked means. The chief thing I hope Christians get out of all this is that there’s no virtue left in America as a society and we should concentrate our efforts on building more local, explicitly Christian social structure rather than trying to prop up a corpse.

David Trounce
Guest

Ain’t that the truth. “To the church in…”

Susan Gail
Member
Susan Gail

Wow. Get some.

Daithi_Dubh
Guest
Daithi_Dubh

But for some forms and appearances, the America we have known – or thought we knew – is done! As gloom-and-doom as that sounds, as you imply here, I believe, abandoning all hope in the one means we can more profitably concentrate our efforts toward “. . .building [re-building?] more local, explicitly Christian social structure[s] rather than trying to prop up a corpse.”

A. James
Member

So…this sounds a little on the “defeatest pre-mil” side…not that you are and not that I agree or have a problem with it either way…but what is your view of the PP video/defund PP effort? work at whatever we can on a state level only or forget that or? what is “explicitly” Christian in the way of abortion–what do we do with “liberals like us”… should abortion be okay for “rape, incest, health of mother”… we get so caught up accusing society of being liberal, when I wonder how much of a unified church would be left when we got… Read more »

ashv
Guest
ashv

I certainly don’t think it’s bad to engage in this fight as Pastor Wilson has encouraged. But we should see that the whole system has to go. Today, supporting “America” means supporting abortion, sodomy, and a whole host of other wicked things.

adad0
Member

John,.. you left out God. What is He doing? Isn’t He letting all of His children, repentant or not, either obey or disobey? We are The Father’s messengers at best. If,by our repeating His message, His Spirit moves another child’s heart to repentance, we are in the Spirit of His Word. No shame in that! Proverbs 24:10-12 10 If you falter in a time of trouble, how small is your strength! 11 Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. 12 If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs… Read more »

John F. Kennedy
Guest
John F. Kennedy

So… What would you have us do?

Luke
Guest
Luke

I don’t know if any who read this are in Utah (I’ve hung out here a while, but just stopped to realize that I don’t actually know where any of you are from. Good ole online anonymity, ha ha), but we are gathering at the capital rotunda this coming week and meeting with state and national reps on this issue. Please come and join us and make your voice heard! The fact that the Obama Admin is threatening states that have defunded PP so far is evidence that states defunding is a legitimate threat, so lets add one more to… Read more »

John
Guest
John

Pastor Doug, just finished reading Angels in the Architecture. Where can I read more about the history of science? The scientific priesthood is a huge idol where I live.

David Trounce
Guest

John, Idols for Destruction is a great read. Check it out.

Charlie Zulu
Guest

Every woman who walks into an abortion clinic does so of their own volition. The institution of abortion would be over if there were no customers. End PP, and fallen women will still seek a way out of responsibility. Preach the Gospel and save the women. The death has been going on since 1971, when I turned two. In that time I was outside the kingdom until I was 19; no amount of politicising or moral bluster would have saved me. Over all those years, there have been moments of general anger and uprising (Moral Majority, etc), but the church… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

I think a lot of what you say is true, but there are also quite a few women who walk into abortion clinics because their boyfriends and/or parents are demanding it. Compelled abortion doesn’t just happen in China; I have known girls who were given a choice between aborting the baby or leaving the parental home. But I also think there is a place for education as well as evangelism in winning this battle. I was a reasonably devout Catholic before I became absolutely personally convinced that abortion is killing a child. Thirty years ago when I was young, I… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

“there are also quite a few women who walk into abortion clinics because their boyfriends and/or parents are demanding it.” How many, do you think? Ten percent seems high, 5%? What’s your point? Its hard to maintain all those unbiblical Victorian ideas about women being intrinsically good and civilizing in the face of so many millions of abortions. Moral agency is hard.

David R
Guest
David R

Actually 80% of women who have abortions, would not if they had support from the father or their family. Some on here want to put the majority of the blame on the women in these situations, but last I checked it takes two to horizontal tango, and there is a father to these babies, who has a responsibility for these children. This fight against abortion has multiple fronts. There is the battle against the butchers like PP. There is the battle to get these fathers to claim responsibility for their children. There is the battle to uphold virtue and to… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

“Actually 80% of women who have abortions, would not if they had support from the father or their family” Umm, based on what? Women chose who they have sex with and when they chose to have sex with thugs, random nightclub hookups, and the guys with the kinest bud then they can’t exactly claim afterwards that they would not have aborted if the father had been supportive. The anaylsis of the dynamics of human sexual relations is a long conversation and one you probably don’t want to have but try taking a herd of cattle and controlling reproduction by removing… Read more »

David R
Guest
David R

Im not giving them a pass, but I am also not giving the fathers a pass (unlike you). Two people are responsible for conception, yet everyone only focuses on the women in the situation. The fathers have responsibilities and rights as well. Both should be held accountable.

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

And exactly how would you hold those fathers accountable?

David R
Guest
David R

There are two issues here. What can be done via public policy/legally and what the Church can do. Legally, as Alex has pointed out, fathers have been completely ignored when it comes to their children. So, I would like to see these changes: – Fathers legally required to support any child they conceive. – Give fathers rights when it comes to their children that are equal to the mothers. – End the welfare system that supports and at times rewards bad behavior – End no-fault divorce – Overturn Roe v Wade This is a long term process that requires a… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

I agree that ending the welfare system and ending no fault divorce would make a huge difference. You hear very few churches calling for this and many churches actively advocate to expand the welfare state. Neither step is politically feasible under our present political system. Of the other things you bring up men are already liable for child support and there are already crisis pregnancy centers and helpful churches. You have to realize that the majority of these people don’t want a church to “come alongside”. They want to get back to their impulsive lifestyles. You also need to realize… Read more »

A. James
Member

Where are you getting your stats? I’m seeing a wide variety…nothing coming up at 80 percent of any one reason… Still, the sin is the woman’s final choice as with any individual sin unless done completely against her will. Otherwise, with any sin it selfishness and rebellion and yes, hardened or ignorant conscience can be part of it (speaking from Bible circle). Not speaking of your comment specifically, but overall. The language of harshness/compassion is off-balance these days. It must be from the Christian feminism is all I can figure. I think work in changing the law–holding back further worsening… Read more »

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

The Victorians were pretty muddle-headed in their vision of women, but even so, their idealism really only applied to the women of their own class. Mothers, sisters, and wives were seen as intrinsically good (the “Angel in the House”) but housemaids, flower sellers, and factory girls were not part of this hallowed group. I don’t know what percentage of girls who are seeking abortions do so under compulsion, but I expect it is very small. I know a girl who, pregnant at 15, was forced by her parents to have an abortion in order to cover up sexual abuse in… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

If an issue comes up such as young women delaying marriage to enjoy unencumbered sex lives with a series of high-status men or the epidemic of women destroying their families through divorce or the millions of abortions done at the request of American women then the first instinct is to find a man (even better, a white man) to blame it on. If I give statistics then the counter is a real or fictional anecdote that minimizes female culpability. There was time where men did have full biblical, legal, and social authority over daughters that lasted right up to the… Read more »

JohnM
Guest
JohnM

“My preference would be that at least the Christian subculture return to patriarchal norms.” The problem is, women within the Christian subculture would have to voluntarily return to those counter-cultural norms, because the church has no real power to require it and a woman faces little to no practical consequences for refusing it. I suppose a church could suggest transferring membership down the street to the First Go-With-The-Flow church if a woman refuses biblical authority, but that’s about what could be done. Now, if the women do only accept patriarchal norms if they feel like it that may be better… Read more »

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

Amish women could walk out of their culture any time they wanted but few do.

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

I’m not trying to say that women are more evil than men (though women and men are tempted in somewhat different ways) but if you tell people that they have the right to behave badly, provide cultural affirmation of that behavior, and in some cases pay them to behave badly then you are going to have bad outcomes. If I wanted to be charitable I’d say that we are seeing a lag as we wait for society to “catch up” to the women’s movement. We’ve always had mechanisms in place to restrain male bad behavior and we are more comfortable… Read more »

Susan Gail
Member
Susan Gail

Non sequitur. ” The church in Amerika isn’t making enough disciples, therefore they should pipe down about the mass genocide against their children.”

Charlie Zulu
Guest

I never said “pipe down”. I said that there is a “piping” that occurs when the “cause” seems to come front and centre, as if it has not been happening for over 40 years. But, every so often there is a sort of rhetorical uprising, like this one, and suddenly it seems like a surge, when in fact it’s just hot-steam going nowhere…again. Sure, keep talking, but let’s talk about the Word to those who are outside the kingdom. MORE TALK of the right kind. You’re flippant dismissing of my words was based on something I never said or implied.… Read more »

A. James
Member

Good thoughts. When one comes here who is “outside the kingdom” or group think to civilly present a differing view, the discussion often leads to mockery and troll accusations rather than civil debate and then quickly on to “The hell with you, the hell with your people the hell with your laws. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Just warning you… ;)

Evan
Guest
Evan

Now Alex, that wasn’t very nice

A. James
Member

(Smiling as I type…just so you know…) Nice to whom, exactly. The blog elite? Funny. I don’t recall you saying that when that quote was recently directed to another new commenter and other very similar ones to others. Including a non-moderator showing me “the door” of the blog or convo–not sure–so, obligingly, I have since left the door of one on one convo with them. If they are compelled to expose all wickedness and determine people’s eternal destiny and have no desire to find common ground with the allegedly “spiritually blind” and “bastards”, then I am compelled to kindly warn… Read more »

Willis
Guest

Off topic question for the Doug Wilson community – fictional book recommendations for a 15 year old who likes sci fi, war, and comedy?

ashv
Guest
ashv

_The Golden Age_ by John C Wright is grand-scale SF with some interesting philosophical moments; _A Hymn Before Battle_ by John Ringo is a military SF yarn about Earth nearly getting conquered by aliens. _A Throne Of Bones_ by Vox Day is epic fantasy in a setting based on ancient Rome’s Social War. (To the best of my knowledge, the above authors are Christians.)

Barnabas
Guest
Barnabas

I’m not much on sci fi but Starship Troopers transcends the genre. Also, Tolkein, of course. As far as war and comedy, I thought Catch 22 was the funniest thing Id ever read when I was young.

Rob Steele
Guest
Rob Steele

Master and Commander by Patrick O’Brian. It’s historical fiction instead of science fiction but one of the themes running through it is how complex the old tech. is. War is another big theme and it’s very funny in places. It’s great literature capable of giving pleasure for a lifetime.

Jane
Member

Depends what your standards are for that age. I think there’s some stuff in there a little rough for 15 year olds, but personal mileage varies. Overall, though, I heartily endorse the books. Sort of science fiction in reverse since it deals with unfamiliar technology of the past, rather than fantasy technology of the imagined future.

Luke
Guest
Luke

I would definitely suggest starting with Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. The first time I read it was about that age, and I have read it well over a dozen times since then. Great book! Compelling story. Chillingly relevant cultural commentary.

After that? “Silent Planet” from C.S. Lewis “Space Trilogy” is pretty good for young readers, as is Orson Scott Card’s “Enders Game”. Each of these books has their own worldview implications and would be great to work through together as a family and discuss the ideas behind the content. Always a helpful thing Dad did with us.

Jill Smith
Member
Jill Smith

Martian Chronicles. It is beautifully written.

Shawn Spencer
Guest
Shawn Spencer

Last I checked, neither party has a monopoly on hypocrisy….

A. James
Member

Yes, I noticed he said, “you are the party” and “the party” twice…maybe he could clarify…

Chris Roberts
Guest

Virtually every point here is a gross misrepresentation that can only be described as an intentional attempt at emotionally manipulative deception.

A. James
Member

:D You’re the next contestant to see how long you’ll last before being called a godawful pre-mill, a troll, a racist or a lawless scumbag standing on the edge of hell…but welcome anyway. If you are willing to say, which one bugs you the most?

timothy
Guest
timothy

Your emotional misrepresentation of Pastor Wilson articulate expository points is a grossly lame attempt at a cogent counter-argument.

David Trounce
Guest

Which ones Aren’t?

David Trounce
Guest

I am reading a lot of opinion about how effective this or that video or tactic might be. It kinda strikes me as irrelevant. We have evil before us. We expose, rebuke, warn and plead.

We plant and water. We are to be obedient in these things day by day. We need workers not just commentary on the workers by those sitting on the sideline tut-tutting and ho-humming.

A. James
Member

Maybe not all are just commentating on the the workers or tut-tutting/ho-humming? One can be obedient in planting/wantering/salting/lighting AND concerned about effectiveness and tactics?

David Trounce
Guest

Absolutely… And we can benefit from accountability and the insights of others. But lets help each other and urge each other on and not just boldly claim to know the future ineffectiveness of today’s attempt at obedience.

A. James
Member

Admittedly it’s hard when some boldly claim to know the future EFFECTiveness and believe their attempts are the only one true best way to obey. Some of us realists like to consider all the options as we journey along and decide for ourselves between our conscience and God :D

Cool enough though. Glad you didn’t scream at me :D

JPM
Guest
JPM

I can respond to this by asking one question.
God is truth. So how exactly are you advancing God’s will by lying?

David Trounce
Guest

What are you responding to? Oh, and Rahab and some Hebrew midwives.

timothy
Guest
timothy

I can respond to you by asking what the heck are you talking about?

Luke
Guest
Luke

Apparently you can’t respond with just the one question, because we don’t have even the vaguest idea what you mean by your question. Sorry, but I think you need to clarify further.

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Human tissue firm cuts ties with Planned Parenthood after videos
By Jennifer Haberkorn
8/14/15 3:38 PM EDT
Updated 8/14/15 7:03 PM EDT

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/planned-parenthood-fetal-tissue-company-cuts-ties-videos-121371.html#ixzz3iowGwSEm

“We [StemExpress] value our various partnerships but, due to the increased questions that have arisen over the past few weeks, we feel it prudent to terminate activities with Planned Parenthood,” the company said in a statement. “While we value our business relationship with Planned Parenthood, that work represents a small percentage of our overall business activity and we must focus our limited resources on resolving these inquiries.”

Could we have UNDERESTIMATED the effect of the videos???

A. James
Member

We could have. We might have. It would be fine with me if I’m “wrong”. I’m sure I could use Ambien to clear up my crystal ball of the future, too :)
You don’t want my “but maybe this bit of news means…” response do you? Not on a weekend?

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

Sure. But you might not get a response until Mon. ;).

A. James
Member

So, AGAIN, it’s fine with me if this cutting of ties means or signifies or results in affecting PP. http://stemexpress.com/about/ “Our Products and Services StemExpress is the only company of its kind to both procure tissues and isolate cells for researchers’ individual needs in its own labs. Our human tissue products range from fetal to adult and healthy to diseased…” I…(sorry…you asked!!)…can’t help but think they are just trying to lie low, divert investigations/people’s angst/inquiry away from themselves more than having any shame, etc. in what they or PP do. By doing this, all eyes stay towards PP, but they… Read more »

Kelly M. Haggar
Guest
Kelly M. Haggar

“we will have to figure out exactly what we are outraged about…and focus…” AMEN on the FOCUS. 1. That’s why I keeping beating the dead horse (no pun intended) of “life is not equal to rights.” That’s why a person standing in the faith/moral circle screaming at a person standing in the legal/secular circle is never going to make any progress. Screaming rarely helps, regardless of the topic, but unless those two people can figure out they’re NOT discussing the SAME THING they are wasting each other’s time. 2. “How we got the tissue” is a different question from “What… Read more »