By now most of you have seen the video sting of Deborah Nucatola, a high placed operative in Planned Parenthood, discussing PP’s brisk trade in fetal body parts. If you haven’t, the video is embedded below.
That video perfectly captures the insolence of our secularist elites. The fact that she could discuss the sale and distribution of livers, hearts, and baby heads, and do it over wine and salad, has left everyone with a functioning conscience aghast. She looks like a nice lady, and Kermit Gosnell looked like a creepy abortion doctor, and so it just goes to show. The whole thing is vile. The face of evil looks out at America from the mirror — but we have not yet recognized it.
C.S. Lewis described modern evil in this way:
“I live in the Managerial Age, in a world of ‘Admin.’ The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid “dens of crime” that Dickens loved to paint. It is not done even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices” (Screwtape, Preface).
Watch just a few minutes of that video, and ask yourself if the description above applies to Planned Parenthod. To ask the question is to answer it.
That said, here are just a few thoughts and suggestions:
1. Do whatever you can to make that video show up in every Facebook feed in the world.
2. Thank the Center for Medical Progress for capturing the footage. This was well done, and is one of the most potent things that pro-lifers have ever done.
3. Our nation has tried to muddle through the abortion issue by means of a willful suppression of imagination. This video cuts through all of that. Livers. Hearts. Heads.
But our natural response is a feeling, and feelings pass. One of the principles of war is pursuit. We must want this feeling to be codified in the public imagination. Planned Parenthood is an organization of ghouls with a taste for salad and wine. And money. So we should press the point so that every elected official we know of comes to the unalterable conviction that any vote to fund Planned Parenthood ever, under any conditions, is a toxic vote.
4. Embrace their inconsistency. Lean into it. Press it. This is because our nation is profoundly schizophrenic on this issue, and their inconsistency must be pressed hard, especially now. In other words, everyone is outraged because the body parts were sold to traffickers, instead of being thrown into the dumpster. Got that? Our nation wants to retain its self-respect on this issue through arbitrary legalisms. But surely the heart of the crime is the murder itself, and not the disposal of the body?
5. When the pope denounces free markets, he is talking through his mitre. Capitalism as gift is the work of the Holy Spirit. But like all gifts, when it is exalted into the place of the Giver and turned into an idol, it becomes something else entirely. Capitalism as ideology, capitalism as god, commodifies absolutely everything in order that it may devour. Merchants without Jesus are terrifying. What won’t they buy or sell? “And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; For no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver . . . and wine, and oil . . . and slaves, and souls of men” (Rev. 18:11–13).
6. Now would be a good time for a bunch of people to get down off their high horse on any matters concerning the Confederate battle flag. If you voted for Obama (twice), the most pro-abort president we have ever had, a man who is an ardent supporter of Planned Parenthood, an organization that we now see practices (illegal) partial birth abortions, which preserve more marketable pieces, an organization which chops babies into pieces and then sells them off for ready money, then you are the problem. You want to do all this feeling morally superior to Robert E. Lee? I am not defending the sin of any past generations, but it seems to me that moralistic fury from this generation is more than a little bit out of place.
7. The way out is repentance. The only way out is to turn from sin, and turn to Jesus Christ. America needs to take a lesson from what the Lord said to another nation with a heart of stone.
“Have ye forgotten the wickedness of your fathers, and the wickedness of the kings of Judah, and the wickedness of their wives, and your own wickedness, and the wickedness of your wives, which they have committed in the land of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem? They are not humbled even unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers” (Jer. 44:9–10).
I think I’m going to go home and hug my baby girl.
A question to (hopefully) provoke thought: Why exactly would it be a sin to shoot this woman? I would never do it, nor am I advocating for it, but I really don’t see how, logically, it would be wrong.
Vengeance belongs to God (Deuteronomy 32:35, Romans 12:19, Hebrews 10:30). The only time we (as private citizens) could justly kill is to protect ourselves or someone else. The danger needs to be imminent and specific.
So if I break into a Planned Parenthood, and just as the doctor is bringing down the needle to kill the child, I shoot him in the head, this is not justified defensive violence?
The problem with that is usurping the state monopoly over violence. Another problem is where does it stop? Do you shoot heroine dealers? How about pot dealers? Do you invade and permanently occupy Somalia to prevent female genital mutilation?
and nobody’d better make any jokes about my misspelling of heroin
So sexist…you wouldn’t shoot hero dealers too? Sorry….had to
“The problem with that is usurping the state monopoly over violence.” Wait, what? Since when does the state have a monopoly on the use of defensive violence? If someone breaks into your home at night in order to kill or rape you, you can’t shoot them, but have to wait for the police? “Do you shoot heroine dealers? How about pot dealers?” What do people providing a consensual, mutually satisfactory product or service have to do with baby-killers? “Do you invade and permanently occupy Somalia to prevent female genital mutilation?” That would be like overthrowing the U.S. government in order… Read more »
You have some strong parallels in first century Rome with infanticide and killing of Christians. You see no attempts on the part of the early church to intervene with violence. Also if the mother wants the baby dead, the doctor wants the baby dead, the government wants the baby dead then you are the odd man out. If pagans want to exterminate themselves then your best option is to make every effort to separate yourself socially an physically from such people. See discussion on parallel society. If you live in a rational society then that society executes murderers. If you… Read more »
So if you see a guy attacking a three-year-old child with a knife, you don’t intervene because it’s just “pagans exterminating themselves”? What’s the difference?
You don’t live in a society where killing toddlers is a common, socially sanctioned and government protected act. If you lived in the land of toddler murderers then your one defensive act would just be one more killing lost in the noise of the general state of murderous chaos. As it is an attack on an abortionist is a crime against the crown.
Barnabas,
I’m sure you’re making a nice, logical point here…and I’m sure Ben is making a comparison borne of passion and righteous fury.
Perhaps the answer is “both.” It is both our duty to defend the defenseless AND our duty to live within the judicial system of our land.
Thus, if you decide that preventing the murder of children outranks adherence to a law that allows it, you will necessarily pay the “just” reward for your crime. And you should do so with a smile.
I used to think the same way Ben does. Now I can’t help but think beyond the sound of the gunshot. Likely the child would still die and all of the downstream effects would be bad.
Yes, yes…we all like to prop up the “notorious” Paul Hill, who murdered (according to our legal system) an abortionist, and indirectly gave us an assortment of nonsense laws designed to entrench the murder-mills’ presence in our communities. But even far less violent methods of protest–remember Randall Terry–eventually fizzled out after everyone was arrested and their efforts gave rise to RICO. But what if we’re at today’s revelation precisely because we stopped trying. What if PP is the recipient of $500,000,000 each year as a result of our fear of going to jail. In the Apostle Paul’s day, the authorities… Read more »
just maybe we spend more nervous energy pondering the fate of our comfy lives No. My search for a reason to is heartfelt and earnest and serious. I have prayed about this and the “yes” from the Holy Spirit is just not there. Scripture is clear (I believe, please correct me if I am wrong) that it is folly for His people to initiate violence of their own volition and they must wait on Him. I am sure there is an OT story on this very thing and if I had a functioning memory, I would tell you what chapters… Read more »
Timothy, May your search be satisfied. I encounter many comfy people who have exhibited more moral outrage over Paul Hill’s response to abortion than they feel joy in the many thousands of lives he saved with one bullet. It’s like people already are griping about the supposed slander of an edited video instead of the vileness of the person (and company) being exposed. Are we that numb? We must all certainly drop to our knees in confession of our nation’s sins. We must cry out for the blood of the 50 million babies we have slaughtered on Molech’s altar of… Read more »
But I do believe there’s a total war afoot: cultural, spiritual, and ideological.
Many do.
Talking with a co-worker yesterday he mentioned that his late dad said “you could feel a war long before it started”
Its in the air, bro. Take heart. God sees.
Yes I know there would be bad consequences for the killer, and the baby might still die (as opposed to certainly dying), but these things are irrelevant to the question. My only question in all of this was whether or not we should condemn someone morally who kills an abortionist, not whether or not it was a stupid thing to do.
I live 2 blocks from a PP Center, and if I happen to remember that, I can’t walk past without shivering. What troubles me is wondering if I really and truly believe that babies are being murdered in cold blood. If I really and truly believed that, how could I walk on by? How could I walk past three more storefronts to pick up my caramel latte? How could I be wondering what to make for dinner and whether I should shorten my green dress? How could I be thinking of anything except stopping the killing?
Jillybean, I think if I were in your shoes I would be sorely tempted to put my entire family’s reputation on the line. How much fertilizer can be purchased at one time? The sheer atrocity, the horrid stench of evil, the godawfulness of it all would make me want to do something rash out of a righteous fury, something that would “cleanse the temple,” so to speak. I am NOT saying you are making a lesser decision by walking on by. You might very well be making the better, more difficult, decision. I cringe with you; I pray God gives… Read more »
I have seen a community of believers respond to just that situation with prayer and sidewalk counseling and even arrest. After years of this they were eventually rewarded with the clinic shutting down not to reopen. I can’t explain exactly how that happened but I find encouragement in it.
And that abortionist would be replaced with another and the abortion mill would continue killing babies. Oh, and that killed abortionist would become a martyr in the eyes of the pro-choice movement.
What judicial system?
The John “However” Roberts judicial system?
The Paganized oracles of the court?
No. Let it rot.
As it is an attack on an abortionist is a crime against the crown. That is the distinction I have been hunting for. A “revolt against the crown” is useless unless it is won; it is why we hold our hand against the state sanctioned murderers; it removes one of our army and emboldens them. Who among the early Christians did not want to save their brethren from the lions jaw? They must have asked similar questions as Ben is. God is at work, letting them seal their fate to their judgement. He will guide us to when it is… Read more »
Hi Timothy, I wish you could expand this. I have been taught, and I therefore believe, that killing abortion doctors is wrong. I have no desire to engage in illegal behavior against them. But I, who oppose the death penalty (if carried out in cold blood) and who am a fairly gentle person, have trouble believing that it would be wrong to use force to stop an abortion in its tracks. How would this be different from shooting Mengele if you had the chance?
Hi Jillybean.
Catholic doctrine (Christian doctrine?) states that it is a sin to not violently oppose an attack on the innocent. (I don’t have the words of the exact doctrine on hand..)
I agree with it.
Yes, I think I would stop an abortion if I was there and could do so.
Will I go on the offensive now? No, for the reasons I gave Barnabas. Could I in the future? yes.
Does it make no difference at all whether it’s the innocent child or the would-be murderer who dies? This is the problem with the collectivist mentality that is so pervasive on this blog. In the grand scheme of things, one defensive kill won’t make a huge difference to society, but it does make a difference to the child and his/her family. Moreover, it would make a difference to the person who saved the child. If it were me in that situation, to not act to save the child when it was perfectly within my capability to do so might cause… Read more »
In a bloody carnage, the term “triage” is appropriate; same in this instance.
I wasn’t asking whether shooting the doctor was the most practical or advisable step. I was asking if it was morally wrong.
See my response to Jillybean.
“Overthrow the U.S. government in order to end abortion.” That might be what it takes…
Let’s back up a minute. Before we bother answering a question that was designed to ignore core truths . . .tell me this, if the abortion doctor is not stopped, and rips the child to pieces with some instrument, is that murder? Is it acceptable?
If your answer is anything other than an entirely unqualified “no,” then the rest of your question is an impertinence not worth answering.
Nevermind Bend I think I confused you with another commenter and misread your question. I thought you were trying to take a shot at the pro-life stance.
In any event I agree with whoever it was below that talked about what would happen downstream – the baby would still die and the system would go on with no changes other than the prison sentence paid by the person defending the baby.
I don’t think it would be justified. For your example to be a good example, I think you would have to show that 1) stopping the abortionist (doctor still means something else to me) would save the baby’s life and 2) you could not stop the abortionist with some lesser force.
But why go to this extreme? There are dozens of ways you could do something that would save more than one life over your lifetime. That is what you should be doing if you care about a particular baby’s life.
1) Suppose a gang of five men pull out knives and walk up to a child to stab him, and then I pull out my own knife and attack the gang. It’s not likely I’m going to be able to save the kid (nor myself), yet obviously there was nothing wrong with me trying anyway. Moreover, I might have even felt guilty for not intervening, even KNOWING that I would fail. 2) Maybe the abortionist has a gun on him. Or maybe I try and pull him away (with no intention of harming him), and he fights back fiercely. Can… Read more »
I would not condemn this.
The scenario keeps getting more convoluted. (But thought provoking.) 1) Yes. But you are really not addressing the point. The point is: _if_ you stop the abortionist, you save the life. You have shown: if you cannot stop the abortionist, its okay to try anyway. 2) Now we have moved from your original premeditated life-taking to some type of weird, extremely unlikely scenario. And perhaps if someone were to end up in that situation and accidentally killed an abortionist, there might be some justification. Killing an abortionist to stop an abortion is not in the category of saving a life… Read more »
1) You asserted that, in order for my example to be a good one, I would have to show how stopping the abortionist would save the baby’s life, and I was simply disputing that assertion, as you provided no justification or philosophical argument for it. I provided a counterargument using the example of the gang attacking the child to show how it would be not only morally acceptable, but possibly obligatory, to intervene, even if the chances of saving the child were small. And the thing is, maybe it’s very unlikely I’ll save the child in either the abortion or… Read more »
I’m not taking sides either way on this. Too confused and vexed these days. But listening to you reminded me of this, “”the ultimate question for a responsible man to ask is not how he is to extricate himself heroically from the affair, but how the coming generation shall continue to live.” He did not justify his action but accepted that he was taking guilt upon himself as he wrote “when a man takes guilt upon himself in responsibility, he imputes his guilt to himself and no one else. He answers for it… Before other men he is justified by… Read more »
Hi Ben, Good conversation. Killing another human being is obviously a big deal. But there are times when it is justified. Self defense and the defense of the helpless would be two cases. I think my two criteria would be the minimal criteria for innocently taking another life. Without them, I think you have a slippery slope that leads to preemptive strikes and so forth. If you do accept them, then your original example fails not because you need to guarantee 100% success, but rather you cannot even show that success in the killing would lead to success in the… Read more »
Just mulling this over. What if the reason there is no practical way for you to stop it is that it wasn’t meant to be stopped? By this I mean abortion is not something God will judge us for, it IS the judgement (at least a terrestrial form of it). Why should God remove stop this horror before his wrath is satisfied.
Another thing I think about is Bonhoeffer plotting to kill Hitler. God planned to end Hitler in his own way in his own good time.
But there is a practical way to stop it. Just walk up to the guy and shoot him. It’s not rocket science. Yeah, you’ll have to find a way to avoid prison, but that’s only a concern after the fact. By what criteria can we say that God has ordained one murder but not another, when the murders haven’t even occurred yet? Here’s another way to frame the question that might be of more practical help: Someone kills an abortion doctor and is on the run. They come to your house asking for asylum. Do you a) give them full… Read more »
a or b.
Its Underground Railroad situation.
If I rejoice over their imminant ignominious death….pretty sure there are many ready to push it
I have a visceral feeling that this type of vigilantism is wrong and I want to continue to work out my thoughts as to why. You have no authority. In old testament times the father had supreme authority over his family. He could kill his own children. Later that authority was limited by the magistrate but the magistrate is also a kind of father. If you want to save the child you could try to adopt the child (assuming the role of father) or you could assume the role of magistrate be it through election or secession. Either of those… Read more »
May I say you appear to be doing rather well at working out your thoughts. You’ve identified the problem with hyper individualism, whether it is found on the right or on the left – authority derives from one’s own thoughts, feelings, and wants. Christianity stands in denial of that even when Christians agree with the individual.
What exactly does me having no civil authority have to do with my right to use violence in order to protect innocent people? Are you saying that it would only be wrong of me because some deranged perverts with government “authority” decided to make legal the massacring of the unborn? You know, it seems to me that once someone in authority goes that far, they’ve discredited themselves as an authority figure and should no longer be perceived and treated as legitimate. Is this unreasonable? This is the problem with growing up in a society of statutory rather than common law.… Read more »
Suppose, for a moment, that it wasn’t a sin. Would it be wise? When a surgeon operates on a cancer, he doesn’t snip off a corner — he removes the whole thing. The person in this video is the product of multiple centuries of unrepentant societal and political rebellion against God. Let’s not try to heal the wounds of God’s people lightly.
Doug, The scary thing to me is the numbness I have to a video like that. I have always and will always (by God’s grace) believe abortion to be wickedness and murder. Not once have I even been tempted to think of it as otherwise. But somehow over the years I have been exposed to so much of it that I practically become numb to the reality of what is going on and I find myself having to remind myself that “these are HUMAN BEINGS! we are talking about Jerrod!”. If a person murdered 1000 women and sold the bodies… Read more »
If a person murdered 1000 women and sold the bodies to some research company we would all be clamoring for the death penalty.
At least 50% of the murdered children were female.
It doesn’t matter to those who support the killing of those children
Ezekiel 16:49–50
49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.
Which is what we just we see in that video. They are near the height of their civilisation and their material well-being–the atmosphere, dress, wine–are in stark contrast to the state of their souls.
What does one say to such people? What can one say?
Denny Burk and Justin Taylor tweeted this. http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/outrage-over-planned-parenthood-video-review-unedited-footage
Anyone else agree with the assertion the video was unfairly edited (an assertion PPFA made yesterday also)?
P.S. I’m not making that assertion, just wondering if any goodwill should be extended to the PPFA exec in light of her full statements.
She is compassionate about saving women’s lives, while destroying others lives. This makes as much sense as calling dead humans “valuable tissue” while calling living humans non-persons of no value. It is odd, is it not, that they would justify the murder of humans while condemning slander about how it’s done.
I read the full transcript. I don’t believe it to be unfairly edited.
Kyle, That article illustrates exactly my point when speaking about my own numbness to what abortion actually is. I am all for getting “the whole” story. So bring on the full manuscript. But, the fact that anyone would think that any other part of the conversation lessens the force of the highlighted ones in the video just isn’t feeling the weight of what she was talking about. What if the conversation were exactly the same, but instead of “fetal” parts it was unruly two year old girls at a daycare for stressed out parents? Would there be any amount of… Read more »
“Unfairly edited” would imply that there is some context in which the serious discussion of the sale and harvesting of the organs of aborted children would be appropriate.
And words have no objective meaning? Think you have an epistemic problem
Someone had brought up that people are outraged at P.P (which we should be). But we also need to spread that outrage over to the companies who buy these parts. Both will be judged by a fearfully Holy God.
One of these companies is called StemExpress. Their website is down and their Facebook page is gone…hmm.
And to propagate it by social media’s rules, we need to all agree on an effective hashtag. We need not use much of our imagination to conjure something with impact.
Catholic blogger Anne Barnhardt http://www.barnhardt.biz/ has been using #TaxStrikeNow as a way of bringing this evil regime to its knees. We can pair that with any regime funded evil.
#SisterSodom #TaxStrikeNow.
In a number of re-posts of this horrific story (which left me literally shaking for a full hour), I’ve seen it referred to as selling dead baby parts, or selling aborted (past-tense) baby parts, as if the two were linked only loosely. (I.e., baby was aborted and that’s a horror; then its organs were sold, and that is also a horror). What I haven’t seen discussed anywhere, and would bring out for discussion here, is that the buying and selling seems to be *prospective* and *specific* (as illustrated with the menu, in the video). When the evil-meter is already pegged… Read more »
I’m almost positive I saw a movie with this theme in it, though realistically I would think we’re more likely to see organs-for-sale grown independently in a lab rather than pregnancies with intent to abort for them.
That said, my sense is that in order to get there (organs-for-sale grown independently in a lab), researchers and corporations need this intermediate step (organs from aborted humans), but I have no expertise or insider knowledge on such things.
Margaret Sanger quotes aside, the idea that there is a racist conspiracy to have blacks abort their babies is ridiculous. If you could show that abortion clinics were in black neighborhoods while also showing that black women rarely used them then you might have something. As it is abortion clinics are generally found in the same neighborhoods as strip clubs, tattoo parlors, pawn shops and payday loan centers. That’s where the market is. I can assure you that the people supporting abortion, from the politicians to the volunteer “clinic defenders” are avowedly anti-racist. The social justice warrior and the conservative… Read more »
Dude, wake up B.
Put the clinics in neighborhoods where blacks aren’t afraid of whitey.)) Seriously, you believe if the clinics were in the hood the white college girl would feel safe traveling there alone after her boyfriend left her?
I would challenge anyone who sees nothing wrong with abortion to actually watch a video of the procedure. If there is nothing wrong with it, you should have no qualms about watching one take place.
I don’t Tweet, but if I did I would suggest these hashtags:
#blackliversmatter
#blacklungsmatter
#blacklimbsmater
Since African Americans are overrepresented in the abortion statistics.
People will always get abortions. Banning abortions will male things slightly more expensive for rich people, but it will put the lives of poor, probably young, woman at risk by going to shadier methods than the ones in the open currently. I know it’s basically the same argument the as gun control but it doesn’t it any less true.
People will always steal. People will always murder. That doesn’t mean we should make it legal so it’s safer for them to do so.
Making it illegal is an important first step to making it shameful.
Amen to repentance. In particular, we need to consider to what degree we need to repent of Americanism. The events of the past month have made the complaints in the Declaration of Independence look weak and trifling. Was it really worth founding a nation on riot and rebellion to get to this point? We’re inviting a greater judgement than not just Sodom at this point, but Carthage, Moab, and Canaan. I love the country I live in, but I no longer believe its current government was established in righteousness.
Consider: Three states completely defy federal law regarding marijuana. Abortion could be stopped in your state immediately — if men of worth can be found to lead it.
Wicked politicians who advocate this Obomination have their date locked and their eternal future is sure and just. Think of eternity of your limbs perpetually riped off your body and your brain continually scrambled. I long for that.
You do realize that the video has been edited, right?
PP regularly, and with consent, donates tissue of aborted fetuses to aid in the research of diseases such as Parkinson’s. As she said, the liver is sought after because of its role in this disease.
It doesn’t take a brilliant mind to figure this out. One, it is well documented. Two, who is buying aborted fetus parts on the black market? Nobody, that’s who.
All videos are edited. You cannot have a video without pushing record and pushing stop. That is editing.
The outrage now is not that this is occurring, but that we are forced to think about it.
We do have to think about, and it is uncomfortble. That is true about a great many things is this world, isn’t it? If these accusations are true, I would be horrified. But if this turns out to be be routine research, there are some serious questions we have to answer, still. What is the cost of a cure? And are we comfortable with that cost?
If you’ve made it to this blog, you know the answer is “absolutely not”.
And I don’t necessarily disagree with you. It’s tough. What’s the value of life, you know? I certainly don’t have the answer.
Only because you don’t want to have the answer.
I understand your points, but maybe from a different vantage. I honestly fail to see the outrage at it. It’s a perfectly consistent reasonable choice to make…you have body parts, use them. Why wouldn’t we be comfy with using them, the worst hellish crime has been committed. What is inconsistent and upside down crazy maddening is as W said: “But surely the heart of the crime is the murder itself, and not the disposal of the body?” And the lawmakers come out looking more foolish and creepy with their expressed outrage at potential trafficking of body parts while the blood… Read more »
Pray for repentance and deliverance… and start building a parallel society.
You are absolutly right. I guess I’m just upset about someone sensationalizing, and possibly forging, a crime in order to bring attention to a cause. It just feels wrong.
I understand what you mean. Seemed to me it is being used as sensationalism though they seem to think this is “for the cause”. I don’t know about the crime part of filming it–is it? Even if it isn’t (but especially if it is), then yeah, what’s the point. We already know there is murder. So, their point is to spark outrage again over a lesser atrocity to hope the outrage over the original atrocity will make us DO more? Are we really surprised that someone who can commit murder and commit it legally can easily speak of selling the… Read more »
Well said
Don’t know if you are still lurking. AndrewH and Kelly had more to add to this later on this thread.
I don’t think you would need a “civil war” to end abortion. Some good old widespread vigilantism would probably do the trick just as nicely. Molotov Mitchell even made a movie about it called “Gates of Hell.”
I haven’t read all the comments, and someone might have mentioned it, but it was so completely creepy watching this woman casually munch salad and sip wine while having this conversation. A true devil.
After 40+ years and 55-60 million dead babies, the Lion of Truth has finally been set free. PRAISE THE LORD!
Per the convo about “should we do more, should we kill if we see killing” etc. Here’s a comparable situation. Did he do enough, was he really guilty, etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/15/accountant-of-auschwitz-sentenced-to-four-years-in-prison-for-300000-deaths/
We need a facebook filter for this.
I forced myself to read every word of the unedited transcript. The only sense of right and wrong exhibited by this abortionist is her insistence that while red wine has certain health benefits, white must accompany salmon. This refinement sits oddly on someone who scraps babies for cash.
Doug — I need to take exception with #6, above, for a singular reason: you ignore the other ones who enabled this person to become president. That is: those who could not vote for a Mormon with a well-formed conscience and therefore stayed home in morally-smug absence. Look: not voting for McCain earned us Kagan and Sotomayor; not voting for Romney got us, well, all the rest. Right now the Republican field for President has 15 candidates, all of them better than the the best Democratic candidate. In your local primary, vote for the most Christian libertarian, isolationist, gold-standard-demanding intellectual… Read more »
Ha! I was waiting for this topic to come up :) because I wondered about the “don’t vote for them if they support abortion” or “if you voted obama, you are the problem” was going to work out with the “vote the lesser of the evils” voting philosophy. Very divisive, but it’s creepy to remember Hitler was voted in by the will of the people even as Mein Kampf clearly delineated his “pure race” war against the Jews goals. Sometimes I leave it to know it’s up to people’s conscience or no conscience how they vote, but then I wonder… Read more »
It would be amusing if some aspiring demagogue noted the ethnic backgrounds of the Obergefell Majority.
Do you seriously want to argue that any Republican president would have made a material difference here? Abortion has been a prime topic for keeping the voter base loyal for decades — actually *doing* anything about it would been bad for the party. Besides, the pious platitudes about Constitutional separation of powers and whatnot would be trotted out. Overreach by elected officials is only OK so long as it’s in the direction the permanent government wanted to go anyway. On top of all that, I’m willing to bet practically none of this blog’s readership lives in a contested state or… Read more »
If conservatives haven’t gotten Republicans to do something, would the pro-death activists constantly shriek about their problems?
Yes, because their world view depends on believing they’re the underdog battling oppression. If they can’t find actual opposition they’ll invent it.
I agree that Republicans don’t commit whole-heartedly – but I also don’t agree with you that they’ve done nothing. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/what-pro-life-activists-really-want/398297/
It’s not a pretty battle. It’s marked by a lot of internal fighting within the movement. But elected officials are doing something, under pressure from these types of groups.
God bless those folks. I guess I should clarify that I was primarily thinking of things at the national level. Certainly there’s more leverage available in various states.
That’s true. I still think that President Bush used the Presidency as a good platform for the “culture of life,” though. And President Obama certainly uses his office as a ghoulish chamber issuing statements of horror.
It’s a mistake to believe that nothing good has happened in the battle over abortion in the last 50 years.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-mixed-bag.html
I agree, much good has been done. I should have clarified that I was particularly referring to federal elections.
Frank, The Democrats being in power has a few benefits. Many conservatives are dolts who were completely unaware of Neocon chicanery. They were willing to give up their rights over ‘terror,’ and send their sons to die in pointless wars, but not willing to address the actual existential threats facing America. Now they are losing their pensions under the Democrats. Good. Maybe with empty bellies they will be willing to take action. The Republicans stand for managed decline, the Democrats for rapacious lusts. It’s the difference between cancer and food poisoning. The former has set into the bones; the latter… Read more »
I’d upvote you but I don’t use Disqus.
Blah. I don;t buy it, but only because I have seen all kinds of organizations migrate from terrible to decent to admirable when people are willing to accept an incremental improvement over rapid decline.
Would you be willing to name a few?
Also, you’re re-framing. The Republican Party will give you incremental decline while dangling promises of improvement in front of your nose.
I’ve arrived at the opinion that voting for one party versus the other is a distinction without a difference. The Democrats will continue to push their agenda, and the Republicans will continue to give way and acquiesce. This is because the Republicans have become the party that stands for nothing and will fall for anything. I didn’t leave my party, they left me. (Sound familiar?) Now I’m an Independent.
The majority of the supreme court justices that voted to support legalized abortion were appointed by Republican presidents. And Justice Anthony Kennedy, who wrote the majority opinion for Obergefell v. Hodges, was appointed by President Reagan.
http://vox-nova.com/2008/05/21/are-liberal-judges-to-blame-for-roe-v-wade/
Great exploration of the idea of Christian/traditionalist secession.
https://nickbsteves.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/about-exit/
Wow…
Sorry for using “Google” for a generic term for “searching.” I didn’t know they had a transgender ad for Gay Pride and Bruce as well as having an LGBT promotion group the Gayglers. Sigh.
Oklahoma greeted Obama with Confederate Flags (organized by a black man).
This tension cannot last as it is. Hopefully some historian is taking some very good notes.
This video is a selectively edited hoax, to tell a very different story than the actual complete conversation it records. From one article debunking the hysteria: “It turns out, Nucatola wasn’t discussing the illegal black market sale of fetal organs, but instead the perfectly legal donation of the organs to biomedical research laboratories that use the organs to help save lives. The price range of the organs described by Nucatola is, in reality, the reimbursed expenses accrued in the delivery of the specimens.” It doesn’t take a great analytical mind to figure this out. If black market organs are being… Read more »
Who cares? As Pastor Wilson said: “surely the heart of the crime is the murder itself, and not the disposal of the body”.
Who cares? About truth? I do. I’m fairly certain Pastor Wilson does as well.
? I thought W’s point was from the perspective of the abortionists or liberals or anyone to express outrage at baby parts when there has been murder. Andrews point is not to get “worked up over body parts” but that it matters very much how we represent the opposition’s views. We don’t want to become like we despise in our tactics. I haven’t compared the text, but if it was presented as “black market” when it was “legal donation”, this does nothing to serve our cause well. These are two separate issues. I think it was the videographers that looked… Read more »
Yes. Broadly, my point is that when Wilson encourages his readers to “Do whatever you can to make that video show up in every Facebook feed in the world”, and that video, at its core, is making a false accusation, he’s doing more to hurt his broader cause of stopping abortions than help it.
So, you watched the whole video? What website “debunked” the “hysteria?” Full disclosure- I haven’t watched it all yet. It’s out there which speaks volumes because the filmers made the whole thing available. Yet those I know who did claim the whole video isn’t in any way exculpatory and the whole “reimbursement for donations” thing is an invention of PP’s PR firm to soften the blow.
The title of the video is, “Planned Parenthood Uses Partial-Birth Abortions to Sell Baby Parts” – and this is false, and not supported by the context of the talk at all. Planned parenthood is no more “selling” body parts than Gritman is “selling” body parts to Sacred Heart, when Sacred Heart pays for the transportation of a lifesaving vital organ from Moscow to Spokane. I haven’t watched the whole video, this article: http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/14/attack-on-planned-parenthood-3-deceptive-edits/204419 gives a very thorough recount of what was deceptively edited compared to the full transcript that was released. Does the full transcript make Nucatola look like a… Read more »
So, you haven’t watched it but some websites you like told you it was a hoax? Oh, and it’s Media Matters. Well, that certainly is an unbiased source. “A
non-profit progressive research and information center dedicated to
comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative
misinformation in the U.S…” Sounds like we can expect no worldview bias from that website now doesn’t it. National Review told me the opposite, also in a detailed account. Interesting isn’t it?
You’re criticizing Media Matters for their bias, but compare their points to the transcript released by the (also heavily biased) Center for Medical Progress https://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/ppfatranscript072514_final.pdf and you’ll see that they’re factually correct.
You can have an argument about bias, but you’ll need to have that with someone else.
My point (and the only point I’m here to make) is that the source video — the one that Wilson’s encouraging all of us to share on our Facebook feeds — is at its core deceitful. Media Matters bias doesn’t change that.
So, how are these items from the film “misrepresenting the facts?” 1) Nucatola discusses how a partial birth abortion (which is illegal) is performed to make sure the abortionist gets “good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that — so I’m not gonna crush that part. I’m going to basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.” You’re not seriously going to go with the spin created by Planned Parenthoods PR consultant (and dutifully picked up by MM and thereby you) Camino Public Relations, are you? This is… Read more »
I read the entire transcript. I don’t think the filmers were suggesting that PP is getting rich off the sale of bootleg baby parts. This woman’s (I’m afraid that the title doctor sticks in my throat a little) own words explain exactly what she is doing. (1) Lots of people seeking abortions want to donate the tissue, and she wants to help them out; (2) PP is a not-for-profit, it doesn’t make a lot of money, and the fees-for-service and shipping costs accruing from selling baby brains and livers help the bottom line; (3) the disposal of the bodies is… Read more »
PP has issued a statement apologizing for the “tone” of their doc’s comments. I haven’t watched it and don’t plan to. Still, if I thought I had been hoaxed (defamed), I’d be standing on the roof with a bullhorn screaming my fool head off. ADDED after this morning’s Denison newsletter. The NYT story he quoted but did not cite raises more questions than it answers. The line between “pure secular law” and “theology” is pretty [typo fixed] fuzzy here. At least it’s fuzzy to me. I had to search for the quote because he didn’t link it (he usually does;… Read more »
Thanks so much for the substance and balance. I’m about to read the transcript to see if the term “black market” was actually used as an allegation. Any legal (as opposed to honor) thoughts on this “conflict of interest”? “Still, he said, abortion providers like Planned Parenthood face ethical considerations, as well as the appearance of potential conflicts of interest when they take fees for fetal tissue acquired from patients.” If they aren’t making a profit… and if not…doesn’t seem it would be any more a “conflict of interest” than any other medical field If anything, I can see the… Read more »
“Legal” vs “ethics” issues. A profession typically has a both a governing board of practitioners and a license from the state. In theory, a minister who violates that church’s standards and practices can be defrocked even though neither OR nor LA has an entrance exam to preach. Under current 1st Amend law, neither a state nor the feds could have an entrance exam to be a minister. Docs, lawyers, engineers – – geologists in many states – – all have tickets from a state and need approval from another state to practice out of state. Some have reciprocity (We’ll recognize… Read more »
I read the first three paragraphs a few good times. I’ve got it. Got the Big Picture. Okay. And I just finished reading the transcript. https://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/ppfatranscript072514_final.pdf After taking notes, there was no way I couldn’t watch the video. (The full video is available somewhere now I think.) I was left seriously wondering exactly what the point of the video was and what they used to support it. Throughout the video/interview, they throw in legal alarms in between the interview footage, and that is what I am more interested about, because all else other concerns of the video (for me) fall… Read more »
Instead, why not just record the hearings the House Rs will hold? There will be a ton of news and blogs, pro- and con-.
**Do you have most highly recommended sites that do the best job of cutting through it all and presenting things most objectively with a legal bent or perspective?** It would be nice to not have to wade through the rest except as a diversion in mental gymnastics… What are the hearings even about… okay, there’s this: “will investigate whether Planned Parenthood is selling organs from aborted fetuses.” Guess it’s gonna depend on what the meaning of “sells” is…and/or then “aborted fetuses”… And it doesn’t take long in listening to the “Rs” to just be disgusted anyway. “When an organization monetizes… Read more »
Part II: The Title of the Video “Planned Parenthood Uses Partial-Birth Abortions to Sell Baby Parts” 1. this is a statement of fact…that these are indeed partial-birth abortions (and someone above says those are illegal)…i think they are banking that on the switch to breech argument…but there are other factors in that, i think to make it “partial birth abortion” (and the dr. noted that in the full transcript). 2. And the Sell Baby Part evolved in the video into it being illegal selling of baby parts. from what I read, i couldn’t quite see that. the doctor clearly brought… Read more »
In some states (LA is one), consent is only needed from ONE party to record a conversation. In others, EVERY party must know about and consent to recording, say, a phone call. Depends on where this video was made. Once we clear of hurdle of crushing a (baby)(fetal tissue collection)(product of conception)(pick something else) with a surgical tool, then use of the resulting (materials)(body parts)(?) is a MUCH lower ridge to clear. The (thing)(baby)(other) is going to die in any event. There are no futures in which THIS baby goes home to a crib. They are obviously a lot of… Read more »
“Once we clear of hurdle of crushing a (baby)(fetal tissue
collection)(product of conception)(pick something else) with a surgical
tool, then use of the resulting (materials)(body parts)”
!! Just started reading your comment..but this reminded me of your saying all the decades to come from Oberg. Imagine the hurdles of definitions to clear…or not.
Good grief. :) Okay, back to reading.
It’s all great on a not so great topic. Thank you. “In the “donor” square on a driver’s license, we’re allowing the docs to harvest organs from accident victims. No one is CAUSING the auto crashes in order to create a donor pool. We making the best of a bad situation. Here, is PP just a bystander to a fatal crash, or are they players in making the crash happen? That’s the place where a moral problem arises.” Yes. As well as when goes in for some other types of surgeries, too. As this dr. said, they do a consultation… Read more »
This was my other abortion question… http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/disappointment-follows-ruling-against-little-sisters-in-mandate-case-57581/ http://www.bpnews.net/45105/baptist-universities-appeal-to-supreme-court 1) If more institutions/companies would have also fought this, would it be a more persuasive effort, or as long as we have “one” or? 2) Will more companies choose to revert to getting out of the HHS mandate if these cases win…I’m thinking they are content or there would be more outcry? or are they hoping for a new president/congress to get rid of it…so all is silent for now… 3) Does Hobby Lobby’s win help these, Hobby Lobby won off…? I guess I should read the case, huh? 4) Wonder why… Read more »
Sorry, but are any of the principles of Hobby Lobby (such as citing Thomas with strong approval) still valid? A day or two ago the 10th Cir ruled against the Little Sisters of the Poor; I’m among those who think they got that one wrong. Additionally, in Obergefell, there’s a pretty good argument for the idea that “religion” is something which only occurs for one hour a week inside the four corners of the lot now has five votes on the US Spm Ct. If you’re not worried about the possibility of Caesar stomping all the churches – – any… Read more »
Added some more legal stuff dug out on another blog to Ghoul as a stand-alone comment. See it resolves any issues for you.
thanks for the alert! i probably would have missed it and very much missed it.
“resolves any issues” or…”raises more issues”…you know how my mind works :)
okay, going to catch up on all you’ve added here and then there. intriguing.
I could not agree with you more concerning the evil that is PP. I am, however, still a bit concerned that the opposition may, in the end, be able to point to “editing” of a much longer video. I’m not saying they will be able. I’m just concerned. Heaven forbid that those of us in the prolife cause ever stoop to even the slightest form of deceit. So I’m asking, have you heard yet whether the group that posted the video has “clean” hands? I for one have not been able to find evidence one way or the other. Having… Read more »
If we are to be fair and righteous, we would not be discussing this issue based on half-true stories;
The video posted here by Douglas Wilson has been edited for maximum Christian blind emotional outrage.
“The full, unedited undercover video of the conversation between Dr. Deborah Nucatola of Planned Parenthood and the actors from the Center for Medical Progress about obtaining fetal tissue from abortions and the transcript posted on C.M.P.’s site tell a different—but no less troubling—story than the one that has been covered in most of the news pieces about this issue.”
http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/outrage-over-planned-parenthood-video-review-unedited-footage
Ex Abortionist describes what an abortion is like, graphically. Please be warned this is hard to hear, especially for myself as a women who had a termination before she met Jesus – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctI9lXM
Can we agree that there is a strong connection between slavery and abortion? NO WE CERTAINLY CANNOT. I have watched you uncover your father’s nakedness, I won’t let you lay YOUR sins on him. Abortion was not legalized by the Daughters of the Confederacy, it was legalized by the daughters of New England abolitionists. Abortion and glorified sodomy are the fruits of the egalitarian society you are so eagerly pursuing. They are the fruits of your gospel according to John Lennon. You object, “we want a society without tribalism and also without abortion and gay marriage.” The freshman year Communist… Read more »
So…racism = Godliness?
Please mull it over a bit and give me more than a three word response.
Not a response, a request for clarification.
I’ll not reduce what I’ve written to a three word equation so that you can simply draw a line across the = sign. If you have a criticism let’s hear it.
“The more vehemently anti-racist the populace, the more Godless they are. The land of the racists is one of church picnics and charity.” I fail to see how any blatherings about loyalty, or emotional appeals to concepts such as “the last flickering light of Western Christianity,” John Lennon, and Noah change the fact that these two sentences “reduce” to “racism = Godliness.” I believe that both equality and hierarchy are fundamental and good elements within humanity – both individually and as a society. The Trinity, in which the Father begets the Son and their love begets the Holy Spirit, but… Read more »
Please hold your blathering on the Trinity. Your grandfathers need to be exposed as moral monsters but the evil of your generation is a divine mystery that should not be examined? My appeal about the Bible Belt is not emotional, it is demographic. Christianity is a tiny remnant in Europe. It is a small minority and to a large extent heretical one in the Northeast and the western United States. What’s going on with those ignorant hate-flag waving hicks in the South that the church is thriving? You want to reconstruct them? Your brand of Christianity appears to burn bright… Read more »
I nowhere make a claim that I am more virtuous. I make the claim that unrighteousness is unrighteousness.
Anti-racists abandon the faith because the faithful have made it ugly with their sin. They abandon the faith because of their own rebellion.
I have defending hierarchy. I believe in community. I stand against decadence.
I can see that someone who thinks that the days of Jim Crow were halcyon days of virtue and God-centeredness is not interested in discussion. I probably should have known better from previous conversations. My apologies for wasting your time.
Jim Crow was in a time an place already conquered by bloodthirsty abolitionists. The term is just a scarey buzzword anyway since you wouldn’t really want to look at the actual historical circumstances of Jim Crow and compare them to today. http://tinyurl.com/q956f6u Anyway, your condemnations go far beyond the time and place of Jim Crow. They cover an England without rape gangs, a Russia without Bolsheviks, a Zimbabwe that could feed itself, and a hundred American cities without carjackings and home invasions. They cover a thousand tribes in towns and villages all over the world who lived and died and… Read more »
Loved their own people. What about loving your neighbor, from a hated racial group that despises you?
Stop with the ridiculous personal attacks. I find your views beyond offensive, but I have not called you names or accused you of evil, cowardice, weakness, etc.
My comments are directed towards the commentariat in general, you have chosen to be their representative. You have charged dead men greater than yourself with evil, cowardice, and weakness, I take offense on their behalf. It is fitting that you chose to single out Jim Crow, though I never did, because your argument is really not that men shouldn’t be killed or have their children sold. Your argument is that all men must have the same political power and social standing or at the very least that the founders of a society have no right to monopolize political power and… Read more »
Liberte, egalite, fraternite (wait, that’s sexist…um…siblingite). That’s me.
https://dougwils.com/books/what-is-racism.html :
“…despite this great and very real barrier between Jew and Gentile, the bulk of the New Testament is about their reconciliation. In this sense, racial, ethnic, and tribal reconciliation is one of the central aspects of the gospel. Those who miss it are not just missing a detail.”
Why are you quoting Doug Wilson instead of scripture? Doug Wilson is also an egalitarian. He grew up in a time before the fruits of equality were as rotten as they are today. Also his judgement on this issue is colored by his attempt to honor the founding myths of his country. He is to loyal to admit that the American revolution has proven to be a slow motion French Revolution. Finally he is influenced by the desire to live without being savaged by the Jacobins around him. If ethnic reconciliation is a central part of the gospel give me… Read more »
Why am I quoting Doug Wilson? Perhaps because we are discussing things on Doug Wilson’s blog. Doug would agree that the Bible is a higher source than his words (as would I), but mostly to see where you would fall. And now I know. I deny your assertion that I in any way desire or advocate for statism. Social Justice is a lie, a vicious irony that destroys the meaning of community and justice in the name of tyrrany. I seek reconciliation in Christ and His church, not the state. That does not mean I think that the government may… Read more »
Kudos on having to boldness to continue the engagement. I hear a lot of crickets on the forum. Now lets get down to business. 1. Do you deny that those on this forum have used the term racism such a broad manner as to call sin what the Bible never called a sin? 2. Do you deny that even actions you may find personally distasteful such as denying a group of people a vote, and integrated school, or a right to long-term asylum are not condemned by the Bible? If you do not deny this, then do you agree that… Read more »
(I’m going to regret this.) 1) I had a conversation with someone else on this blog about racism not being a sin. I still believe they were just playing semantics, wanting to call racism something else. I think that racism, defined as believing in an inequality of value (not a sameness, to clarify) based solely on race (genetic makeup, not culture, though cultural snobbery is a whole other issue, one we no doubt also disagree on), is absolutely a sin condemned by the Bible. Proving that the Bible does condemn it to someone versed in the Bible and their own… Read more »
First of all I would encourage you to picture races other than your own even those you may have some moral investment in to work out the abstract and then apply the ideas to the particular. Racial defensiveness is something that I am conditionally supportive of but lets reason first. I feel you were a little evasive. I’m not trying to trap you, I’m trying to be as concrete as I can with my premises. Please be as concrete as you can be when you counter them. What is this “value”? Is it a metaphysical value based position as God’s… Read more »
I realize that you and I are not worlds apart on the issues of egalitarianism but that is part of what makes it so frustrating that I can’t get you to recant your condemnation of discriminatory societies (those being ALL societies prior to the post-war Pax Americana). If I could at least get you to admit that you are making ideological arguments and not scriptural ones then we could address merits and why discriminatory societies appear to be better at restraining evil than the current one.
Which race should I picture? My father’s, or my grandmother’s, or my grandfather’s? I am defensive not of my race, but of the idea that racial reconciliation is a sin. I am being as clear as I can without compromising what I actually mean. If I feel your questions are tendentious, I will answer it as I see fit. That site is truly repulsive. It walks the line of blatant racial hatred, cloaking everything in the language of love for one’s own race and culture/tradition, always mouthing the platitudes of “not hate of the other,” but under every sentence is… Read more »
Our society is full of lies and many of those are about race and gender. Unless you have made an effort to deprogram yourself you probably believe many lies about gender relations. I don’t read Alpha Game because I tend to dislike Vox Day’s personality so I can’t comment. You might read Dalrock. Blogroll aside for now, Freenortherner has been a source of consistent wisdom. I think you probably went in suspecting bad motives. You use words like disguised, platitudes and “behind every word” which means you probably aren’t confronting the actual ideas he is presenting but dismissing someone you… Read more »
And all that emotional language about Freenortherner’s site. It borders on a ryansther “pure evil” comment. Don’t be superstitious about language or ideas. They are either true or false. Sometimes you are going to have to suspend judgement for a little while or a long while to figure it out which it is. Don’t be afraid to explore new ideas.
There have been times there was an England without rape gangs, but the monoracial society of the Middle Ages certainly wasn’t it. The early modern era fits your bill, I suppose.
“Sometimes they lived at peace with one another and sometimes they warred
brutally with one another but they never chopped up their own children.”
I’m going to assume you mean this in a way that isn’t clear, because there have been plenty of people who chopped up their own children in monoracial societies.
I hope Ryan never sits on a jury for a murder trial.
“Your honor, I find that the rest of the jury is as guilty as the defendant. Probably more so.”
Too many comments are being deleted here.
What? Who is deleting comments?
In flight school I remember hearing about the Nazi experiments testing survival gear for air crews. As I recall, naked Jews were immersed in cold salt water to get a “no protection” baseline survival time and then various combinations of street clothes and survival gear were tested. Went looking for source material; found a bunch of it. What I was told more than 40 years ago as new 2nd Lt turned out to be more accurate than a normal person should want to think about. Here’s a snippet and its source: START The Ethics of Using Medical Data From Nazi… Read more »
Could the outrage also be about how clearly this discussion refutes the idea that the baby is not a baby. Abortion was sold to America on the basis that the baby was just a mass of cells…no one can hide from the truth when they hear the dr talking about muscles and hearts and heads. The dr is describing a person, clearly, undeniably, without apology, and that is a fact that many have still been unwilling to face.
I really, really hope someone like Ben Carson makes this a solid, medically convincing, passionate point in the presidential campaign.
I noticed that this was at the top of my Facebook trending feed until yesterday, and then it just disappeared. Now maybe they have a rule that says that something can “trend” for a limited amount of time, but if not, then they suppressed it. I also went to two pro-PP sites and debated the pro-abortion zealots there. Not sure that was a good use of time, but at least they know that there are people who disagree with them and who are not half as mean as many of them. I was called some incredibly nasty names. One thing… Read more »