But Sometimes Your Inner Pietist is Right

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You can take a drop from a bottle of vinegar, put it on the tip of your tongue, and tell what is in the rest of the bottle. You don’t need to drink the whole thing to make sure. And this relates to a basic question in pastoral counseling. “What’s your mouth like?”

And Jesus said that “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matt. 12:34). That means if your mouth is an open sewage pipe dumping into the clean river of God’s creation, your heart is the sewage lagoon. And if your heart is a sewage lagoon, the first order of business is getting a new heart. That means the new birth.

What is one description of unregenerate man? “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness” (Rom. 3:14).

What kind of mouth has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God (Eph. 5:5)? This kind—“neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks” (Eph. 5:4, NKJV).

What is the new man told to be like, in contrast to the old mouth? “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers” (Eph. 4:29).

Of course we are talking about actual humans, and not a row of cinder blocks. This means that we have to understand the real nature of language, the possibility of backsliding, the relationship of justification and sanctification, and more. But with all due qualifications made, we still have to acknowledge the basic spiritual reality here. People with a foul mouth need to get saved.

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Eric Stampher
Eric Stampher
6 years ago

Would you say that if they are saved, then they need to stop it, or maybe they aren’t saved?

That’s a kind of thinking that scares me to death, in a good way I hope.
When I / If I have a moment ahead of time to think over a sin I’m fixin’ to do, I start wondering how a saved person like me can do / or did it.
Drives me scared to my knees hoping He’ll ignore / clean up the mess.

MeMe
6 years ago
Reply to  Eric Stampher

“For whom the Lord loves He chastens….”

All in good humor here, but I have learned that I seem to be a much loved daughter and that my salvation is clearly in His hands. Trust me, I’ve felt that “love,” many times.

Our salvation really is in His hands and thankfully not simply dependent on our ability to obey.

Eric Stampher
Eric Stampher
6 years ago
Reply to  MeMe

Agreed, PTL.
It’s just sometimes when I deliberately tuck bad stuff away in my head for future enjoyment, I start feeling that I’m choosing to pull away from that love and go solo.

PB1
PB1
6 years ago
Reply to  Eric Stampher

For what it’s worth, you’re not alone. Over the last couple of years I’ve learned a lot more about how sinful I really am. The part that scares me is not that I sin, but that I don’t fully desire to be rid of it. I do at times, but at others I make accommodations for it’s presence. I’m not sure I know the difference between personal disappointment and disgust, and real repentance.

BBx
BBx
6 years ago
Reply to  PB1

Meant as encouragement to trust *Him*: If the Holy Spirit weren’t working in you, would your sin bother you? From our point of view it looks and feels like our own effort to “do better,” but it’s God in us both “to will and to do.” His word says who he justifies he will sanctify, and glorify, and that’s a promise. So let’s keep “trying,” but remember it’s Him making us want to, and trusting not in our efforts but the finished work of Christ to make us ready to stand at the judgement.

Eric Cooper
Eric Cooper
6 years ago

Being in the military, I always struggle with this particular sin. Part of me is conflicted about the use of “profane” language in certain instances in order to make a point or to gain credibility with a particular audience. In the linked video below you’ll see an example of what I’m talking about. I have found myself tending not to get so wrapped around the axle with profanity but perhaps I should reassess.
https://www.facebook.com/GoodGuysInBadLands/videos/1310818415678787/?hc_ref=ARTZKZiTbZSZAgZfE-dpyL8QPbMFzylVZ8NQWMlJbn0Wzw1kItkgiU4JDXs7OYrJ3Dk

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Eric Cooper

Eric, there is a plethora of words available in the English language that will fulfill any and all of the preferred profanity used in the service. They can be delivered in a most stunning and powerful manner so that even the most recalcitrant individual will be motivated to perform in an outstanding manner. Cussing takes up time and air instead of quick properly stated and clear orders. In the middle of the night, when you are next to the ground at high speed, cussing impedes the ability to maneuver quickly and away from the ground. I was giving area orientation… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

I know that has to be true, Dave. The nuns of my youth did not curse at their students. They could verbally skin you alive in refined and grammatical English. One quietly spoken remark could chill the very marrow of your soul. They could say “What is the meaning of this?”, and you felt the gates of hell opening beneath you. Actually, they could accomplish all this with just one look!

That is probably why, in first grade classes of 45 students, everyone seemed to learn to read and write.

Mike Metokur
Mike Metokur
6 years ago

I’m not sure where cussing was mentioned? If you’re assuming using the word “sh*t” is filthy, then of course it’s included, but you know what they say about assuming. Using passages like “cursing and bitterness” suggests you’re grasping for something, because that passage is not about “cursing” in the sense of “cussing”, but about cursing people. “Damn *him*,” not simply, “Damn.” Scripture is full of inspired so-called filthy talk, whether having no problem repeating what others said, or speaking it as God’s own theopneustros language. God has no problem placing in Holy Scripture a quote where a man says his… Read more »

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike Metokur

I am not certain Doug would define bad language as taboo words. I have heard people speak in a filthy way without one “wrong” word, and others speak appropriately with a coarse word thrown in.

Doug has made similar arguments from Ezekiel.

Krychek_2
Krychek_2
6 years ago
Reply to  bethyada

Bethyada, I would agree with you. I would also add that there is an historical reason for why some words are considered bad words that has far outlived its usefulness: In 1066 the French conquered England and French became the language of the court. English words for body parts and functions were then considered vulgar. That’s why in polite company you may say “excrement” (French) but not shit (English). Or “vagina” (French) but not “cunt” (English). I won’t bother going through the entire list, but that’s the common thread; the French words are acceptable and the English words are not,… Read more »

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago
Reply to  Krychek_2

Quite possibly. The initial use and the modern use can differ. I have never been worried about the use of “nigger” but Americans do have conniptions. Language does change however and vagina is now an English word (usually mistaken for vulva)—I had always assumed it came via Latin as a more medical term. “Cunt” might be taboo now but it was always a little risque.

But it does matter how a word is used currently. “Awful” no longer means “awesome.” Insulting someone and appealing to how a word was understood several centuries ago is bad form.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  bethyada

Bethyada, the offensiveness of the N-word (which I cannot bring myself to type unless I am quoting Huck Finn) can’t be appreciated outside our particular history. It’s simply not equivalent to other words like “wop” and “polack”, not that I use those. It’s more akin to calling a Jew a kike.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
6 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Interestingly one of the most broadly accepted etymologies for kike indicates that it was mostly American Jews who used the term to disparage recently arrived illiterate Jews from eastern Europe. They signed their form with a circle (kikel) because they thought an x was associated with the cross of christ.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Demo, that is interesting. I had never heard that. But minority groups which have experienced persecution or ostracism have a latitude the rest of us don’t have. My ex-husband was once dealing with some Izzies who were trying to overcharge him on a car repair. He looked them in the eye and said, “Have you confused me with a Gentile?” That still makes me laugh.

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
6 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

It falls within a common anthropological trope that groups have to distance themselves from poorly performing group members. WASPS have trailer trash and renecks; blacks have street n*ggers, and, apparently, the wealthy Jews of New York had kikes.

I think it is a universal not tied to minority status.

wtrsims
wtrsims
6 years ago
Reply to  Krychek_2

EtR, you ever listen to or read Jordan Peterson?

I’ve recently started watching lectures of his and his positions have atruck me as being areas where I could find common ground with you.

How many Hail Marys for commenting off topic, Moderator?

CHer
CHer
6 years ago
Reply to  wtrsims

I’ve almost finished Jordan’s podcast with Joe Rogan (talk about a guy who uses cuss words). I think Jordan takes down the current SJW insanity better than anyone I’ve heard.

PB1
PB1
6 years ago
Reply to  CHer

He starts off strong in that Podcast but he eventually goes off the deep end. He has a lot of the right ideas, but he plants them in barren soil. I will be curious to see where he ends up.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  wtrsims

Just enough to obtain a Hail Mary pass!

jigawatt
jigawatt
6 years ago
Reply to  Mike Metokur

Doug has used a strategic S-word at least once. His justification is here at around the 9 minute mark.
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/a-conversation-about-collision

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago

Doug’s opening sentence also relates to the theme of substance abuse on the other thread. There are people, and I’m one of them, who seem to have to drink the whole bottle of vinegar to make sure.

MeMe
6 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

Excellent point, Jilly.

I don’t wrestle with addiction too much, but I do have a propensity to ask, “did the Lord really say…..” and then we have repeat the whole lesson all over again. Seems He is rather steadfast and unchanging. I’m beginning to catch on.

Vinegar by the way, is very good for you. I also use it on my face. Acetic acid is a gentle chemical peel that keeps our skin looking fresh. You do smell like a pickle, however. :)

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  MeMe

MeMe,

I’ve always thought you were full of vinegar. Which is not to say sugar free. ;-)

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  MeMe

Your skin, MeMe, not mine. After 30 years of endless summer, it would take a sandblaster to fix mine! But I actually like the taste of vinegar, diluted with a water and some sweetener. And I still love building volcanoes in the sink.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  MeMe

Please keep catching on MeMe. Reading a chapter of Proverbs every day helps too.

reformed roy
reformed roy
6 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

when the bottle is dry, have you ever looked to see it there is another on the shelf?

CJX
CJX
6 years ago

And if a pastor doesn’t practice discretion, in this matter, you should fire his ass!

Andrew Lohr
6 years ago

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh: what comes out of you is what you’re full of, whether thankfulness to God and neighbors, or, something else. Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain: don’t put God’s name where it doesn’t belong, e.g. on lies, on sins, on oaths when oaths aren’t needed, on idols… Thou shalt not steal: don’t put your name where it doesn’t belong, e.g. on other peoples’ stuff. (Ray Sutton’s covenant structure parallels commandments 1-5 with 6-10; and as music features diverse harmony lines, more than one structure may… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago

While there are certain words that raise red flags for me and are nearly always inappropriate, it’s still worth mentioning that the intent of the language is far more important than the vocabulary. Too often I’ve seen a church dismiss someone as a sinner because their vocabulary didn’t conform to that which was acceptable in the church’s particularly small circle. It’s the equivalent of a parent caring more about whether she just heard a “bad word” on the TV than that the characters are gleefully trying to kill each other.

bethyada
bethyada
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes! Let’s be more concerned with the theme of entertainment than whether or not the antagonist said “poo”

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  bethyada

Amen.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  bethyada

Well, yes, but the version of “poo” you hear is a pretty good indicator of what else you can expect from the entertainment.

CHer
CHer
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

I agree. Since around the 1990s, I’ve noticed that practically every children’s movie has bathroom humor. While it’s only mildly offensive to most people, it’s definitely part of the larger cultural skid.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  CHer

I’d consider lazy or stupid humor in a different category entirely. As you point out, a children’s show can rely on inanity too, even though they are unlikely to be using the “bad words” in the process.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  CHer

CHer, I think that this deliberate inclusion of bathroom humor (which I agree is in itself only mildly offensive) is perhaps more insidious than it looks. For reasons unknown to me, children seem to really find it funny and moms don’t. Using it in children’s movies conveys the message, which will only get louder over the years: “Your parents don’t think this is funny or cool, but we do. Listen to us. We’ll tell you what’s cool and okay.”

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Other than the level of PC-ness they were aiming for or the movie pictures rating they were hoping to acquire, exactly what is the version of poo you hear an indicator of?

I would think that in just about any movie genre I can think of, it is plausible that there would be a character who might use a very, very common word at some point.. Movies don’t just show saved and PC people.

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Believe it or not, even outside Christian circles there are work environments and social settings where use of that very common term is not very common, and is considered unprofessional or juvenile or low class, if nothing else. I suppose those settings make for boring movies. The kind of movie settings that aren’t boring are the ones to which, I gather, you object. In any case, I’ve come to question if there is any “good” movie genre. Perhaps movies have always been a degenerate form of amusement, presented by degenerates. Besides the essential nature of the entertainment form, consider the… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

I actually don’t object to any movie setting. Nor do I object in the least to movies without designated “cuss words.” Certainly several of my favorites were without them. What I object to more so than a particular degenerate setting is the way characters and actions are portrayed within that setting. Seinfeld was basically just set in an apartment, but I found it one of the more degenerate shows of the era. Simpsons was attracted by certain culture warriors for some time for Bart’s crude language and had a lot of drunkenness and other debauchery, yet I found it to… Read more »

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Seinfeld was essentially amoral. It was as if none of the main characters acknowledged even the existence of some standard that says “Don’t relentlessly cater to your own whims. Don’t use other people for your own ends.”

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I was using “setting” to encompass perhaps more than what the word actually does. I was referring back to things like “the characters are gleefully trying to kill each other”. Characters trying to do that are going to talk differently than characters boringly but peaceably trying to, say, carry on fair and lawful commerce with one another.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

The issue for me, John, is that God our Father has written a story where people of every moral persuasion do exist. Where some people are “boringly but peaceably” trying to carry on fair and lawful commerce with each other, but a lot of other people (and even the boring people some of the time) are doing a lot of other things as well, many of them quite profane. Since our omnipotent Father felt that a world with sin and evil within it was still worth creating, and still worth telling stories about, I think it is well demonstrated that… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, Yes, how characters and their bad actions are portrayed makes a difference – cool, or appalling. However, rubbing our noses in the manure isn’t necessary for us to know it stinks. I don’t know as I’ve ever watched a movie or TV show that used more than a minimum of profanity and it didn’t seem gratuitous. As for Seinfeld, no, hardly morally uplifting, however the show did seem to have a sort of self-awareness. That is, the characters were self-centered and shallow, yet their being self-centered and shallow was portrayed as being-self centered and shallow. That was part of… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you should consider what you type. Simpsons was one of several crude shows that deliberately and willfully worked to destroy the family and Christian values. Exactly what portion of Breaking Bad, a show where a science teacher turns against our laws against scripture and promotes a drug that destroys Americans daily? Once again, you can’t see the big E on the Christian eye chart.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Dave, by a response like that I am certain that I have considered the subject much more than you have. I am quite certain that the object of the Simpsons was never to “destroy the family”. The entire show was built around a family that, for all their faults, loved each other and were devoted to each other. The most important thing was that their faults were always clearly highlighted as FAULTS. Homer’s drinking problems made him a worse person and hurt the family in real ways at several points, which was made clear. Bart’s naughtiness always got him into… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Your depiction of Breaking Bad is even worse. Breaking Bad didn’t “promote” meth. If you actually watched the show, EVERYTHING about meth is shown to be terrible. (To the point that, along with the extremely positive portrayal of the DEA, I began to suspect whether the DEA had actually fronted the bill for the show.) Every meth user in the show is pathetic or made pathetic by the drug. There is NO glamorization of using drugs, not for a second would you think that a single episode had made drug use look cool or admirable. Even the majority of the… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Ahhhh Yes! Shakespearean tragedy! Going to church! “Breaking Bad”, was meant to depict how we are not naturally evil, but how we can choose to be evil, how we can “break bad”, how we can turn from light into darkness.” Jonathan 202803 Again Jonathan, you are missing the big E (perhaps I should say the big C as in Christ or Cross) on the eye chart. We are naturally evil. We are born into sin as little tiny babies and only the blood of Christ covers that sin. We are naturally evil and that is one of the big problems… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Okay, John, I see now that you’re taking it in a direction I wouldn’t have guessed. If your position from the beginning was simply, “We should not allow ourselves to be exposed to media or environments or anything else in society that is produced or largely occupied by those who don’t share our explicit denominational dogma”, then you could have just said that from the beginning. And it would have made most of the playing with lines rather useless. Who cares if a man deals drugs or not if he hasn’t accepted TULIP? Even taking that, I still think your… Read more »

JohnM
JohnM
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

“Okay, John, I see now that you’re taking it in a direction I wouldn’t have guessed.” And all the rest.

I can only respond ????

I’m the only John I’ve seen in this thread, so you meant someone else(?), or how did you get all that out of anything I said?

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Ah, John, sorry about that, was speaking to Dave.

Jill Smith
Jill Smith
6 years ago
Reply to  JohnM

Hi, John. I think there was a time when movies, even when made by immoral people, could present an inspiring message in a morally clean way. The Hays Code took care of that. No blood and gore for its own sake. No bad language. No glorification of wrong doing. No direct depiction of sexual immorality. No plotlines in which crime pays. I know those days are long gone, and they’re not coming back while people keep rewarding Hollywood for making offensive movies. Not that I would be quite as rigid as the Hays Code myself–remember how hard the makers of… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Jill Smith

On the topic of immoral people making inspiring messages, it still blows my mind that “The Mission” was made by a non-Christian. The very idea of a non-Christian saying, “I want to make a movie where missionaries are the heroes” is weird enough, to have done it with that degree of depth was incredible.

My Portion Forever
My Portion Forever
6 years ago

This discussion reminds me a bit of the previous discussion about pink hair… trying to find the situations when it is okay to color-me-flamboyant in response to a blog saying it’s not. Perhaps there are situations when it is okay to use “cuss words”… but shouldn’t we be more focused on what the Word enjoins us to use our mouths for, namely building each other up? A.k.a. try not to speak in a vulgar way unless you find yourself having to describe/confront something that is vulgar (like false, self-righteous, hypocritical teachers or our own “works of the law”).

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago

Yes, reminds me of the pink hair discussion too. And the marijuana discussion, for that matter. And the tattoos discussion.

It’s very very easy to draw exterior lines around the things that “those other people” tend to be the ones doing. Tribal societies been doing that since the dawn of time.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you need to learn how to draw better lines. The point is that Christians are to speak properly, avoid oaths and not blaspheme. Most American Christians have forgotten how to speak correctly and have forgotten not to call the Lord’s name in vain and do not stand up for Christ. Since we have forgotten what is right and wrong, we use exclusions instead of following the main thrust. One of my cop friends told me about a time when he was called to a black neighborhood to arrest a drug dealer. The dealer was exactly inside the law, so… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

What line have I failed to draw properly in line with Scripture? Please name one.

Yes, we should definitely avoid oaths, not blaspheme, and not take the Lord’s Name in vain. I don’t see what those have to do with the current conversation unless you’re misunderstanding them.

Exactly how did the drug dealer take the Lord’s name in vain? Did he swear that he would stop on the name of Jesus Christ, then keep dealing anyway?

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, it is obvious you have never been around really bad people cussing up a storm. They can use the name of our Lord in so many vile ways it is amazing. They blaspheme with almost every sentence or fragment there of. No, he was going to keep on dealing and blasphemed using the name of the Lord in vain in front of all the sisters there to witness to him. They did not mind being cussed out themselves, but when the Lord was blasphemed, they took action. As a note, there hasn’t been any more drug dealing on their… Read more »

demosthenes1d
demosthenes1d
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan,

When did you kick Dave’s dog?

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  demosthenes1d

Dave has a strong emotional investment in a sinful issue between persons that occurred at the family level in Moscow, and is especially very angry at one particular person and to a lesser degree a second person. I had a different perspective than Dave on how Pastor Wilson handled that dispute publicly and criticized how Pastor Wilson spoke about it on his blog. Dave got very, very upset with my criticism (as he has been upset with dozens of other posters on this particular issue) and said that I had no right to dispute Pastor Wilson’s way of speaking about… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Oh Jonathan, you still miss the big points of applying scripture to our lives. I don’t like those who lie and I point out their lies in an effort to stop choice morsels from going to the belly. I don’t hate anyone and when you say that, you are really off base. I am tired of people telling falsehoods about Moscow and I am tired of folks who don’t know what happened using those falsehoods to foster their own ideas of what really happened and what should be done. That is why I corrected you and others so that your… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Your representation of the Moscow situation is quite misleading. I did not lie and didn’t even deal with issues of factual dispute, but was offering my opinion on how Pastor Wilson was talking about the case right before us. You cannot point to a single falsehood I perpetuated about the case because we only differed on matters of opinion.

As far as pink hair, marijuana, and the ability to find a strain of good in some secular tv shows, your claims that I have misused Scripture in those discussions are completely made up.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, years after the event, using incorrect and incomplete information, you postulated a thought that may sound good now but doesn’t meet the factual nature of the problem. That is where the rubber meets the road. You and others using incorrect and incomplete information come up with ideas that only work if the facts of the cases were different. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. You don’t have the facts so you shouldn’t stand on the soapbox and pontificate. I don’t have to make up things concerning how you misapply scripture, you do… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

You kept saying that stuff about “things I don’t know” because you were so focused on blaming the victim and her father for things that happened years ago. You still seem unable to realize that the actions of the victim and her father had literally nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was talking about PastorWilson’s very public statements and whether THOSE were ever appropriate statements to make publicly about a sexual abuse victim in one’s own church, in any context, no matter how much you think the victim and her father deserve part or much of… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you are the one who wanted stories about sin and darkness aren’t you? This is a huge story of sin and the need for repentance, however, only the sin part is available now. I keep praying for the individuals involved for repentance. I don’t blame the individual for her actions nor her parents for their actions in setting up this disaster. What I do disagree with are the multitude of lies that have been set out in public blaming everyone else and not telling the truth about the facts in this sinful story. So you see, the statements were… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

As before, I am flabbergasted as to why you think our discussion needs to have anything to do with the parents at all. You already made clear that you have quite the personal animosity towards this man, I’ve made clear that I don’t care and don’t care to make this about him, and yet you keep bringing it up over and over. Even more flabbergasted that when speaking of a relationship between a 13-year-old girl and a manipulative, abusive 23-year-old man, you continuously refer back to how completely “consensual” and sinful the young teenage girl was in the whole thing.… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, you miss the big points and the facts. There is no animosity or hatred toward anyone. That is something you made up all on your own. You want to find error where there wasn’t any. Leithart and Wilson had different positions and actions in this terrible situation and they don’t lead to the same conclusion. Do you understand that? You want an apology when the apology needs to come with repentance from the individual. The parents set up a courtship between their young daughter and Jamin and placed him in a room near hers. Do you understand that? After… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Again, virtually everything you say has literally no relevance to either of the issues I had with the situation, and it’s still rather confusing to me that a year into this problem, you haven’t even gotten to that.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan, are you a Christian?

Do you agree that the 10 Commandments are to be followed?

Do you agree that scripture is to be followed?

Yes or No.

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

Yes I am a disciple of Jesus Christ and a follower of God, with all my heart and soul and it is the defining aspect of my life.

Yes, I believe that the the primary norm for Christian practice is found in Scripture.

I believe that Jesus has fulfilled and transformed the Sabbath, such that I do not observe a day of holy rest from Friday night to Saturday night. Otherwise I think we should follow all the 10 Commandments, though I have no problem with pictorial depictions of Jesus.

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

By what scriptural authority do you demand that I apologize for telling the truth in love, as demanded by scripture, to an individual who is still deep in sin and who continually broadcasts that sin to the world via the internet and lectures?

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

What is the point of playing those kind of games in the same discussion where you’ve demanded that others give up pink hair, government assistance to the poor, and the Simpsons? I could build a long, extensive answer, including (but not limited to) Matthew 5 and 18, Galatians 5, Ephesians 4, Colossians 3, Philippians 2 and 4, 1 Timothy 3, James 3, and 1 Peter 3. But what would be the point? You grant ahead of time that absolutely nothing I could quote from there would change your mind, right? You have repeatedly gone out of your way to insist… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

But before you went on your personal attacks of the victim and her parents, the basic facts that I had issue with were that two Pastors sat in that courtroom in a case where a man under their supervision had sexually abused a young teenager in their church. They were manipulated by the abuser to the point where they defended him on many points, with Pastor Wilson even claiming in writing to the court that the young man was not a sexual predator, was genuinely repentant, had been responsive to ALL council (Pastor Wilson’s emphasis) his pastors had given him,… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Jonathan! Stop making things up! Please Stop! I do not demand anything at all; I point things out instead of demanding. You made that up. Stop. “You grant ahead of time that absolutely nothing I could quote from there would change your mind, right?” Jonathan No, Jonathan, that is incorrect and you made that up. Give me hard scripture as it applies here, not general quotes about Christian life. Stop making things up. Will you please consider a few things carefully since the majority of scripture you pointed out is more living the Christian life than actually confronting huge, heart… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

It completely boggles my mind that you continue to claim that the sexual abuse of a 13/14 year old girl (and yes, she was 13 when he started grooming her and the abuse continued until she was 16) by a 23/24-year-old man is not abuse, just “legal” abuse. Especially because what she has described him doing to her is quite clearly abuse to a victim of ANY age. But even if we didn’t have a single word from her, it was still quite clearly abuse by the very fact that she was a 13-year-old girl being taken advantage of by… Read more »

Dave
Dave
6 years ago
Reply to  Jonathan

No one says this is not a bad situation or that Jamin is not a deceiver or that his life elsewhere was a Godly life. Stop saying otherwise. That is false. I am neither deceived nor manipulated so stop saying that. I am not blind to Jamin’s sin. Jamin admits his sin and is not lying about it to those he meets. Stop making up things from your own mind and placing them on other people. I am not obsessed with others sins. Stop making that up. I point out court records because that is the official record. She was… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
6 years ago
Reply to  Dave

My wife, though, has warned me that I’ve become too emotionally invested and have other and better things to focus on. So I will drop out now.

MeMe
6 years ago

This is a scary, convicting post. Just saying. Well done. I can actually out curse a sailor and it was a spectacular skill set, one I did not want to let go of. I had to, God said so, so clearly. Ironically, my husband did too. He married a sailor, but in no time he decided he didn’t like it. There is huge double standard in our house today, as in everyone else can curse up a storm….. except mom. Mom must never curse, in fact, I must always speak life over everything. Even the kids will chide me. I… Read more »

Bud
Bud
6 years ago

Gee, now I’m really confused. I thought nothing could separate me from the love of God.

CHer
CHer
6 years ago
Reply to  Bud

I’m not sure if you’re serious, but the verse in questions is about trials we may go through: “Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?”

While a few cuss words won’t separate us from God, a sinful lifestyle that totally ignores God’s commands could. Increased/careless cussing could be a part of that–I’ve seen in some people who eventually apostatize. The verse in question has nothing to do with our sinful habits, though.

Mark H.
Mark H.
6 years ago
Reply to  Bud

Not so much separating us from the love of God as showing that the love of God is not in us.

Malachi
6 years ago

I rather think the whole point of this post was to see how many people would actually type out some litany of cuss words.